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Shaken1976
04-17-2014, 06:01 PM
or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

BOSS302
04-17-2014, 06:07 PM
or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

None of this would matter if you would get back in the kitchen, woman.

Years ago, I would have piped up with a response of, "Integrity First!".

However, the Air Force at higher levels is intent on screwing over people. I've been jaded by seeing too many good people get dry-fucked by the Establishment.

Thus now, I would say, "Look at for you and yours", i.e., look out for your people and yourself.

Measure Man
04-17-2014, 06:43 PM
or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

speak up


Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

speak up


Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

speak up


These were easy.

SomeRandomGuy
04-17-2014, 06:51 PM
Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

This one reminds me of a first sergeant in one unit that we all hated. Literally her first day on the job she said that she was disappointed in our uniforms. Since we are all just a bunch of office weenies (exact words) there is no reason we shouldnt have a perfect uniform. Also she came from COMM where they dig ditches and their uniforms looked better. (COMM never dug any ditches at that base).

So anyways, that unit had a rule where everyone PT tested on the same day whether you were due or not. It made it easy to keep everyone current. So we go out as a unit and take the test then come back to the squadron for waist measurements. At the time we didn't have a PTL to measure her waist. She leaves and goes to her other squadron (dual shirt) and comes back with a signed form saying her waist was 31 inches. Just looking at her there is no way she was under 36. The next day I brought in a pair of jeans that were 32x34 I told one of the PTLs they should offer to let her try them on. If here waist is 31 inches she should easily fit. That didn't fly and I went back to my desk to be an office weenie in my dirtbag uniform.

Integrity starts at the top. When the unit First Sergeant cheated on the PT test it pretty much told the rest of us to feel free to cheat also.

Chief_KO
04-17-2014, 07:41 PM
Yes x 3.
#1: No direct harm or fraud committed, however this could ID other errors in the unit PT program (are other records "fat fingered"?). When PT is audited this could come back and bite the unit with a vengence.
#2: This is tough, especially if the member wants to reenlist. BUT, it will eventually be discovered and fixed and the member would have committed a fradulent enlistment.
#3: Appears harm & fraud are committed. This will bring the whole unit's PT program under bad scrutiny. We are in the boat we are in today thanks to PTL's HABU (hook a brother up) on fudging scores, waist measurements. then TSgt Johnny shows up at NCOA and is 6 inches OVER max (even though he was 2 inches UNDER max 3 weeks prior).

Not a pretty situation, but these are all pretty clear cut.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-17-2014, 08:56 PM
How about having the integrity to be out there exercising and eating a sensible healthy diet every single day?

You'll feel good, look good, and be immune to the scenarios described in the OP.

Sounds like those people traded their integrity for meatball sandwiches and couch potato time long before any of those issues came up.

Now, you are all worthless and weak! Drop and give me 20!

Measure Man
04-17-2014, 11:21 PM
This one reminds me of a first sergeant in one unit that we all hated. Literally her first day on the job she said that she was disappointed in our uniforms. Since we are all just a bunch of office weenies (exact words) there is no reason we shouldnt have a perfect uniform. Also she came from COMM where they dig ditches and their uniforms looked better. (COMM never dug any ditches at that base).

So anyways, that unit had a rule where everyone PT tested on the same day whether you were due or not. It made it easy to keep everyone current. So we go out as a unit and take the test then come back to the squadron for waist measurements. At the time we didn't have a PTL to measure her waist. She leaves and goes to her other squadron (dual shirt) and comes back with a signed form saying her waist was 31 inches. Just looking at her there is no way she was under 36. The next day I brought in a pair of jeans that were 32x34 I told one of the PTLs they should offer to let her try them on. If here waist is 31 inches she should easily fit. That didn't fly and I went back to my desk to be an office weenie in my dirtbag uniform.

Integrity starts at the top. When the unit First Sergeant cheated on the PT test it pretty much told the rest of us to feel free to cheat also.

While I was no fan of the PT program, I once accidentally caught wind of that fact that one of our SSgts did not perform her run, but instead had the PTL (who was her A1C subordinate) put in a time that she knew she could run...and got a passing score.

I promptly "spoke up" and recommended an Article 15 to the commander (after verifying the story). Which the SSgt did receive and soon became a SrA. The PTL was given a LOR/UIF and removed from PTL duties.

TomTom093
04-17-2014, 11:57 PM
or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

1. I'd speak up, especially in this instance where it doesn't do me any harm.
2. Speak up.
3. That person needs reported. We all should be held to the same standard, no matter who our friends are.

Stalwart
04-18-2014, 12:13 AM
Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

Yes, it sounds like it was an honest mistake and does no harm in bringing it up ... so no harm in pointing out it is an incorrect score. Also, if the way the USAF tracks PT scores is similar to the USN, it should take about 60 seconds to correct.



Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

I would. Could this be something down that road that you are held accountable for: knowing there was a problem with the EPR referral and NOT bringing it up? "SSgt, TSGT etc. you should have known better?" Not bringing it up may work in short term, but may bite you harder in the long term.



Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

Yes. Standards are standards. Everyone who tries to meet them has it owed to them that people who do not meet standards are not allowed to slip by because of a friend, position etc.

BT BT

All that said, you may report or bring up everything and the chain of command may not act on it -- especially #1, since it is no harm no foul to the member (they passed the test anyway.) Then it becomes up to you how important the issue is to you; do you feel you have done your due diligence in reporting it even if the issue is not acted on? Is there a bigger issue than the incidents at hand (systemic failure of or in the system the system) and how much of a thorn in someone's side do you want to be? Being the person who bucks the system can be a really good thing if you are willing to weather the storm and if you do it for a reason and not just to be an ass to people; but you have to also know that you may catch indirect blowback from being 'that guy/gal' ... or if you are immune from it the people who work for you could end up paying the price instead of you.

BENDER56
04-18-2014, 12:32 AM
In the mid '90s I was the NCOIC of the Medical Aid Station at RAF Molesworth. One day I got a call from SrA X in our orderly room and the conversation went like this:

Me: Good Morning. Molesworth medical aid station. TSgt Bender speaking. How may I help you?

SrA X: Good morning Sar'nt Bender. This is SrA X and we need to accomplish our annual weigh-in for all assigned personnel before close of business today.

Me: Okay. I'm not busy right now. You want me to come over? (The orderly room was about a three-minute walk away.)

SrA X: Nah, that's not necessary. Can you tell me how tall you are?

Me: Uhhh ... five-foot-seven?

SrA X: Okay. And how much do you weigh?

Me: Ummm ... about 165?

SrA X: Great. Thanks Sar'nt Bender. <Click>

I hung up the phone and just kinda' shook my head for a couple of seconds before going back to whatever I was doing. That was my annual weigh-in.

LogDog
04-18-2014, 06:39 AM
or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?
Speak up. Someone else's score may have been entered wrong and cause they to fail.


Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?
Speak up to determine if the lifting of the code is correct. If it is no problem; if not then it needs to be corrected even through it may not help you reenlist.


Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?
Speak up. The First Sergeant should be the leader of integrity and compliance with standards.

I once dated a TSgt who was the NCOIC of the Medical Squadron's Orderly Room. Part of her duties was to monitor the weight control program. The squadron commander, a Captain, was repeatedly overweight but no action was ever taken against him. This same Captain was recommending airmen for discharge for failing the weight program so she took the Captain's weight records to the Medical Group commander. The Captain was put on the weight program and removed from his position. She did the right thing.

efmbman
04-18-2014, 01:27 PM
If you felt the need to ask these questions, then that tells me you already know. Most times an integrity check can be detected simply by wondering is a question should be asked.

technomage1
04-18-2014, 03:53 PM
I'd speak up on the first but not make a fuss about it when/if it gets blown off.

I agree with log-dog on the second. Ask if its a mistake.

For the third, unless you actually performed or saw the test, I wouldn't say anything. First hand knowledge only on this one.

Rusty Jones
04-18-2014, 04:35 PM
Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

Correct answer is "yes." But what would I do?


Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

Correct answer is "yes." But what would I do?

Unfortunately, there are far worse things that senior officers are doing, and merely getting a slap on the wrist for if they get caught. Too much of this going for me to care about some enlisted getting away with some victimless bullshit.

Seems to me that integrity is only for those below a certain paygrade.


Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

Don't know about the Air Force, but in the Navy... this is common in the CPO Mess. Bear in mind that some of these fatasses that you see actually ARE within standads, because they've got a fat enough neck to offset their gut. I've actually watched this happen quite a few times.

One particular GMC that I saw this happen with didn't even finish the run. He made two attempts, and everyone at the command WATCHED him stop.

I was a PS (PN at the time), so I see everyone's EVALs and FITREPs. And sure enough, it said "P/WS" (Pass, Within Standards) right in the PRT block of his FITREP. I saw it, my LPO saw it, and my LCPO saw it. Hell, the CO of the ship is the one who signs off on it; and the CO himself watched this guy not complete the run.

This is definitely a "pick your battles" situation. Speak up if you want, but you're only gonna create problems for yourself if you do.

Rusty Jones
04-18-2014, 04:49 PM
On a related note, I remember a Navy Times article from a few years back, when they said that there were suprise PRTs conducted on a few CPO Messes of various ships, and only 30% passed - even though all of the commands were showing that 100% of them had passed on their most recent PRT.

Capt Alfredo
04-18-2014, 05:07 PM
or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

#1 and #2 are pretty easy ones. #3 not so much. You don't *know* that the person being taped is over the max. If you cast that aspersion on the taper and you're wrong, well, if you come at the king, you better not miss. The first two are pretty obvious.

BENDER56
04-18-2014, 05:15 PM
On a related note, I remember a Navy Times article from a few years back, when they said that there were suprise PRTs conducted on a few CPO Messes of various ships, and only 30% passed - even though all of the commands were showing that 100% of them had passed on their most recent PRT.

I think that simply reflects on how members of the Navy view their fitness standards. Which is to say they think fitness is unimportant and has little bearing on accomplishing the mission. That's why it got pencil-whipped. I suspect many in the AF feel the same way.

At my final assignment I was in a small tech-training squadron. Now, we know recruits can't graduate from BMT unless they meet certain fitness standards, right? So how come a significant number of our right-from-basic airmen couldn't even come close to meeting those same standards a mere few days after they graduated? Fitness is unnecessary for most airmen to accomplish the AF's mission and we all know it.

TSat75
04-18-2014, 06:54 PM
I think that simply reflects on how members of the Navy view their fitness standards. Which is to say they think fitness is unimportant and has little bearing on accomplishing the mission. That's why it got pencil-whipped. I suspect many in the AF feel the same way.

At my final assignment I was in a small tech-training squadron. Now, we know recruits can't graduate from BMT unless they meet certain fitness standards, right? So how come a significant number of our right-from-basic airmen couldn't even come close to meeting those same standards a mere few days after they graduated? Fitness is unnecessary for most airmen to accomplish the AF's mission and we all know it.

No way...you sir are out of line :)

I have several retired folks that are about 100lbs overweight where I work...doing the EXACT same job as me (phone calls, powerpoint slides, and emails). I have been deployed with contractors who could have swallowed sandbags for an appetizer - doing the same job I was doing (and getting paid quite a bit more).

Not saying being healthy is a bad thing - not saying it won't save money on medical expenses - not saying I would want a fatass on the front lines leading a charge on a hill...but to say someone can't do a lot of our jobs because of the PT score is also not accurate. If it is - then we better start managing the weight of all of our GS positions and Contractors. Yes, we volunteered - but that is not the argument. The argument is we need to be fit to accomplish the mission...yet we don't put these standards on civilians/contractors we send downrange doing the same jobs.

Having said that - I would speak up on 1 & 2. #1 - if I had an Amn report this to me, not sure if I'd report or not. I could see a scenerio in our PT culture of making the individual redo the PT test through no fault of his/her own. #2 - you are just asking for more trouble later on if you don't speak up. Stuff like this tends to get fixed at some point - especially when actions are needed and the records are looked at before making a decision on the action.

#3, agreed with the King statement - better be damn sure before you throw the stone.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-18-2014, 07:19 PM
I think that simply reflects on how members of the Navy view their fitness standards. Which is to say they think fitness is unimportant and has little bearing on accomplishing the mission. That's why it got pencil-whipped. I suspect many in the AF feel the same way.

At my final assignment I was in a small tech-training squadron. Now, we know recruits can't graduate from BMT unless they meet certain fitness standards, right? So how come a significant number of our right-from-basic airmen couldn't even come close to meeting those same standards a mere few days after they graduated? Fitness is unnecessary for most airmen to accomplish the AF's mission and we all know it.

I also know that passing the PT test is part of every airman's job and is therefore part of the mission.

Airman that are substandard need encouragement to get within stands as soon as possible. They don't need a bunch of smoke pit derived logic to help them shift the blame.

Rusty Jones
04-18-2014, 08:21 PM
I also know that passing the PT test is part of every airman's job and is therefore part of the mission.

Airman that are substandard need encouragement to get within stands as soon as possible. They don't need a bunch of smoke pit derived logic to help them shift the blame.

If the Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard actually had combatives; that would actually be the perfect justification for having physical fitness standards.

Rusty Jones
04-18-2014, 08:25 PM
But then again, the Coast Guard doesn't really have any anyway. You just tape. And if you fail the tape, THEN you take a PT test. And if you pass it, cancels out your body fat failure.

Damn, I wish I had joined the Coast Guard. Not that I ever had a problem passing the PRT, but I'd rather not have to do it anyway.

Sergeant eNYgma
04-18-2014, 08:49 PM
or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?

1. Nah, I just care that the test was passed. Actually the opposite of that happened to me. I scored an 87 once and it went in as an 85....as you said not the difference SAT and Excellent...I didn't care as I'd only be left alone for another 6 months regardless. I shut up and press on.

2. Not sure I understand this all the way as I've (Thankfully) not had a Referral during my service. If you have a Referral you can't reenlist? I could see someone getting screwed down the line so I'd speak up and just in case be looking at the job market all the while just in case things don't pan out from speaking up.

3. No, I don't really care....his test is his test and it will bite him later if he doesn't shape up now (Literally).

3.

VCO
04-19-2014, 02:48 AM
Fitness is unnecessary for most airmen to accomplish the AF's mission and we all know it.

Agreed. So is wearing clothes and shaving our faces.

VCO
04-19-2014, 03:03 AM
No way...you sir are out of line :)

I have several retired folks that are about 100lbs overweight where I work...doing the EXACT same job as me (phone calls, powerpoint slides, and emails). I have been deployed with contractors who could have swallowed sandbags for an appetizer - doing the same job I was doing (and getting paid quite a bit more).

Not saying being healthy is a bad thing - not saying it won't save money on medical expenses - not saying I would want a fatass on the front lines leading a charge on a hill...but to say someone can't do a lot of our jobs because of the PT score is also not accurate. If it is - then we better start managing the weight of all of our GS positions and Contractors. Yes, we volunteered - but that is not the argument. The argument is we need to be fit to accomplish the mission...yet we don't put these standards on civilians/contractors we send downrange doing the same jobs.

Not all of the Air Force is phone calls, power points, and emails. Ever hear the expression: can't see the forest through the trees? Being in the military means that we are part of a fighting force sworn to enter combat if need be. I have first hand experience with going from a desk jockey to a "combat rifleman" fending off crowds of angry hajis in Iraq. You never know where and how your country will need you.

TSat75
04-19-2014, 04:14 AM
Not all of the Air Force is phone calls, power points, and emails. Ever hear the expression: can't see the forest through the trees? Being in the military means that we are part of a fighting force sworn to enter combat if need be. I have first hand experience with going from a desk jockey to a "combat rifleman" fending off crowds of angry hajis in Iraq. You never know where and how your country will need you.

Yeah, I hear ya...

jshiver15
04-19-2014, 01:05 PM
...However, the Air Force at higher levels is intent on screwing over people. I've been jaded by seeing too many good people get dry-fucked by the Establishment.

Thus now, I would say, "Look at for you and yours", i.e., look out for your people and yourself.

Completely concur. Before the PT craze really sped up 5-6 years ago I would have been calling for integrity and shit, but now I see guys who are less than a tour away from retirement and they're running undermanned shops, dealing with short-notice deployments, being forced into additional duties that create shortfalls in operations and on top of it all, they're being pressured to maintain arbitrary PT standards for not only themselves but for all the Airmen around them. These aren't people who signed up when these standards were so important, these are people who have seen the game change around them. It's one thing to ask someone to work harder with less, but it's another when you ask them to do that on top of having to change physiologically.

jshiver15
04-19-2014, 01:09 PM
Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

I don't know if I'd speak up about the UIF or control roster personally. But I can say that I work with a guy who was supposed to be on a control roster a few years ago, but apparently it wasn't processed, and he avoided being discharged through the DOS rollback a few years ago. The commander's opinion was that it wasn't up to them to back track and try to pencil whip papers to get this guy kicked out, so luck was on his side for that one.

BENDER56
04-19-2014, 03:32 PM
Agreed. So is wearing clothes and shaving our faces.

Well, maybe wearing clothes is. I doubt having facial hair would prevent any airman from carrying out his duties.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 04:06 PM
Well, maybe wearing clothes is. I doubt having facial hair would prevent any airman from carrying out his duties.

Wearing a gas mask would be one.

technomage1
04-19-2014, 04:12 PM
Wearing a gas mask would be one.

You can wear one with facial hair, but it does interfere with a good seal.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 04:21 PM
You can wear one with facial hair, but it does interfere with a good seal.

Properly wearing a gas mask would be one.

Thank you TJMAC77SP!

TJMAC77SP
04-19-2014, 04:24 PM
Properly wearing a gas mask would be one.

Thank you TJMAC77SP!

???? I think I missed something again.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 04:48 PM
???? I think I missed something again.

Actually, you missed nothing. It was a friendly jab at your penchant for pointing out semantic inconsistencies.

Perhaps you should have said, "I don't understand."

technomage1
04-19-2014, 05:10 PM
Actually, you missed nothing. It was a friendly jab at your penchant for pointing out semantic inconsistencies.

Perhaps you should have said, "I don't understand."

Not a semantic inconsistency but just the truth. You can wear a mask and obtain a seal with a beard. It's just not typically a very good one.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 05:20 PM
Not a semantic inconsistency but just the truth. You can wear a mask and obtain a seal with a beard. It's just not typically a very good one.

If we are going to truly embrace the spirit of TJMAC77SP, I think we should determine the length of the beard, the model number of the gas mask, the ambient temperature, the humidity, and the elasticity of the head straps before commenting any further.

TJMAC77SP
04-19-2014, 05:22 PM
If we are going to truly embrace the spirit of TJMAC77SP, I think we should determine the length of the beard, the model number of the gas mask, the ambient temperature, the humidity, and the elasticity of the head straps before commenting any further.

"Pointing out semantic inconsistencies"? Could you give me an example of that (from me)?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 05:30 PM
"Pointing out semantic inconsistencies"? Could you give me an example of that (from me)?

Yes, I could. Perhaps you should have asked, "Will you please cite an example of where I have done this?"

However, I no have desire of getting dragged into a proxy war. ;)

TJMAC77SP
04-19-2014, 05:41 PM
Yes, I could. Perhaps you should have asked, "Will you please cite an example of where I have done this?"

However, I no have desire of getting dragged into a proxy war. ;)

So, that's a no on providing examples? Kinda figured that.

I always chuckle when I am accused of arguing semantics after I call people on their rhetoric, hyperbole and sometimes just plain bullshit.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 05:53 PM
So, that's a no on providing examples? Kinda figured that.

I always chuckle when I am accused of arguing semantics after I call people on their rhetoric, hyperbole and sometimes just plain bullshit.

Damn PYB!

I was just fucking with you, but the proxy war reference was about your exchange with Rusty, where I think this was applicable.

Regardless, I do enjoy your posts, so don't get mad. All you have to do, is admit that I am a better poster than you. :)

Seriously, just joking.

PS

I'm sure that I am very close to drawing a warning or worse, so we'd better stop. I'm afraid that dolt, Uncle Remus, will come in here and go apeshit.

TJMAC77SP
04-19-2014, 06:25 PM
PYB !?!?!? Damn, you don't have to get personal.

And I think you are very aware that Rusty had no fucking idea of what he was talking about when he cited Korea and Vietnam as proxy wars. He was right but didn't know why. You'll notice there was no explanation of the entirety of his tripe…”We've had two proxy wars - Korea and Vietnam - because presidents in the past were too chicken shit to fuck with the Soviet Union. Hell, even Bush Jr got bitch-slapped throughout both of his terms by Kim Jong-Il.
No fucking sense whatsoever. Bullshit hyperbole and I called him on it.

Oh wait he did offer an explanation………….”Did I not clarify that the US, instead of taking action against the Soviet Union and/or China, participated in these wars?”
Yeah, that explains it……….I was arguing semantics.

Anyway, appreciate the humor and while it may seem we have derailed the thread it is about integrity right?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 06:34 PM
PYB !?!?!? Damn, you don't have to get personal.

And I think you are very aware that Rusty had no fucking idea of what he was talking about when he cited Korea and Vietnam as proxy wars. He was right but didn't know why. You'll notice there was no explanation of the entirety of his tripe…”We've had two proxy wars - Korea and Vietnam - because presidents in the past were too chicken shit to fuck with the Soviet Union. Hell, even Bush Jr got bitch-slapped throughout both of his terms by Kim Jong-Il.
No fucking sense whatsoever. Bullshit hyperbole and I called him on it.

Oh wait he did offer an explanation………….”Did I not clarify that the US, instead of taking action against the Soviet Union and/or China, participated in these wars?”
Yeah, that explains it……….I was arguing semantics.

Anyway, appreciate the humor and while it may seem we have derailed the thread it is about integrity right?

LOL!

I seldom mean LOL in the literal sense, but I do here.

So he was right for the wrong reason, and you felt compelled to point that out.

For the sake of not getting banned, I'm going to drop it, but if you'd like to copy this stuff into the other thread, I'll continue to play.

Mjölnir
04-19-2014, 07:40 PM
For the sake of not getting banned, I'm going to drop it, but if you'd like to copy this stuff into the other thread, I'll continue to play.

Do you want me to move it to here:

The U.N./Russia http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1597760-The-U-N-Russia&p=672614#post672614

Absinthe Anecdote
04-19-2014, 07:54 PM
Do you want me to move it to here:

The U.N./Russia http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1597760-The-U-N-Russia&p=672614#post672614

Entirely up to you... It was just TJ and I enjoying our usual banter, and nothing serious. Although, I'm sure Rusty would get a kick out of that exchange, the next time he checks in. :)

TJMAC77SP
04-19-2014, 08:32 PM
LOL!

I seldom mean LOL in the literal sense, but I do here.

So he was right for the wrong reason, and you felt compelled to point that out.

For the sake of not getting banned, I'm going to drop it, but if you'd like to copy this stuff into the other thread, I'll continue to play.

So..............you explain his post..........the entire post, not the cherry picked versions.