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j_constant
04-03-2014, 02:56 AM
Short and long of it. We are going to have a command lunch off base. The LCPO is paying for all new members and those that are transferring. As far as I am concerned this is discrimination and not fair. If the chief were to cover the bill he/she would need to pay for EVERYONE attending. Is this grounds to report to the CMEO as the Chief is saying there is nothing wrong with this?

Thanks in advance.

Stalwart
04-07-2014, 03:12 PM
Short and long of it. We are going to have a command lunch off base. The LCPO is paying for all new members and those that are transferring. As far as I am concerned this is discrimination and not fair. If the chief were to cover the bill he/she would need to pay for EVERYONE attending. Is this grounds to report to the CMEO as the Chief is saying there is nothing wrong with this?

Thanks in advance.

Is it an event to which your whole department or division is invited? If so, probably not.

Is the LCPO buying all the new and transferring members meals, or just some of them. If he is picking and choosing amongst that group (new personnel and transfers) that is not right, if is picking up the tab for the whole group, that is not fraternization. If the whole division is invited, and those being recognized (is this a hail and farewell?) are having their meals bought and you are not, you have the option to attend and not eat or not attend.

Before you talk to the CMEO, have you talked to your LCPO directly or no? Have you talked to the DEPT LCPO? Try to let the khaki's solve it before using the nuclear option -- but in my opinion this doesn't sound like fraternization.

AJBIGJ
04-07-2014, 03:19 PM
Is it an event to which your whole department or division is invited? If so probably not.

Is the LCPO buying all the new and transferring members meals, or just some of them. If he is picking and choosing amongst that group (new personnel and transfers) that is not right, if is picking up the tab for the whole group, that is not fraternization. If the whole division is invited, and those being recognized (is this a hail and farewell?) are having their meals bought and you are not, you have the option to attend and not eat or not attend.

Before you talk to the CMEO, have you talked to your LCPO directly or no? Have you talked to the DEPT LCPO? Try to let the khaki's solve it before using the nuclear option -- but in my opinion this doesn't sound like fraternization.

I'm under the same impression, it is often the tradition of Hail and Farewells for the senior individual to pay for those being celebrated, usually it is up to the individual whether they do this or not. It basically is a way of having the senior individual show the appreciation of all the hard work that they put in. The big question from a CMEO standpoint is whether he applies it at every Hail and Farewell or just that one specifically. Either way, going as Stalwart put it with the "Nuclear Option" would probably have one result if anything at all, having the senior individual just make everyone pay for their meals, and they would just have to find a more politically correct way of expressing appreciation for all of the hard work. Plus it would probably put you at odds with not only the LCPO but the entire division. In other words, I would strongly recommend against it to avoid making oneself an outcast.

sandsjames
04-07-2014, 03:19 PM
What's an LCPO?

AJBIGJ
04-07-2014, 03:20 PM
What's an LCPO?

Leading Chief Petty Officer, kind of like what I think you guys call the "Shirt" if I'm not mistaken.

sandsjames
04-07-2014, 03:26 PM
Leading Chief Petty Officer, kind of like what I think you guys call the "Shirt" if I'm not mistaken.

Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.

Stalwart
04-07-2014, 03:30 PM
Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.

LCPO is a Navy term. In the Navy you can have 'unduly familiar' relationships (fraternization) between officers (senior and junior) as well as between enlisted (senior and junior.)

I knew an AF couple (one officer one enlisted) that were married (neither was prior enlisted.) It was deemed okay when they dated / got engaged since the officer was not in the enlisted's chain of command -- sounded weird.

sandsjames
04-07-2014, 03:38 PM
LCPO is a Navy term. In the Navy you can have 'unduly familiar' relationships (fraternization) between officers (senior and junior) as well as between enlisted (senior and junior.)

I knew an AF couple (one officer one enlisted) that were married (neither was prior enlisted.) It was deemed okay when they dated / got engaged since the officer was not in the enlisted's chain of command -- sounded weird.

Yeah, in the AF if it only includes enlisted than it is called an "unprofessional relationship", not fraternization. Same thing, different terms. I guess that way it's easier when it comes to prosecution and sentencing to avoid confusion between the responsibility that an Officer holds and the responsibility that an enlisted holds.

Rusty Jones
04-07-2014, 03:39 PM
Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.

It's not. We really don't have an equivalent to a First Sergeant in the Navy; although the closest thing would be a Command Senior Chief, which has only been around for the past six or seven years. What they have in common as that they're the senior enlisted person at commands that rate their own UIC, and they hold a general leadership rating/AFSC/MOS outside of their original. The big difference is that a First Sergeant in the other services hold a specific position in particular echelon that reports a higher echelon with a Command Chief Master Sergeant/Sergeant Major (eg., company to battalion in the Army). Command Senior Chiefs are merely for commands in the Navy that are too small to rate a Master Chief.

A true equivalent to a First Sergeant in the Navy would be a department level LCPO with a general leadership rating that moves from department to department outside of his original rating, before becoming a Command Master Chief. But we don't have that in the Navy.

AJBIGJ
04-07-2014, 03:39 PM
Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.

Yeah, like Stalwart said it's a bit more complex on the Navy side, since most of us all live in one big steel container for months on end with no "unduly familiar" relationships other than a specially designated sock (at least by the rulebook). It's entirely possible for an E-4/E-5 to have a questionable relationship if one is the subordinate to the other and the particulars of their relations are "questionable" from the perspective of another. It's all kind of a "perception-based' philosophy in the Navy, and yes it doesn't always make sense either!

Absinthe Anecdote
04-07-2014, 04:05 PM
Short and long of it. We are going to have a command lunch off base. The LCPO is paying for all new members and those that are transferring. As far as I am concerned this is discrimination and not fair. If the chief were to cover the bill he/she would need to pay for EVERYONE attending. Is this grounds to report to the CMEO as the Chief is saying there is nothing wrong with this?

Thanks in advance.

What you just described is not even close to fraternization, nor is it discrimination, or unfair. I'm having a hard time understanding why you are bothered by this.

It reminds me of a kid who gets invited to a birthday party and is upset at not being the "birthday boy."

What else is going on between you and this LCPO?

There has to be something else going on that is bothering you.

Measure Man
04-07-2014, 04:20 PM
Short and long of it. We are going to have a command lunch off base. The LCPO is paying for all new members and those that are transferring. As far as I am concerned this is discrimination and not fair. If the chief were to cover the bill he/she would need to pay for EVERYONE attending. Is this grounds to report to the CMEO as the Chief is saying there is nothing wrong with this?

Thanks in advance.

There is nothing wrong with what the LCPO is doing.

This is not an CMEO issue unless he is only paying for a small group based on race, color, religion, national origin, and sex. Anything outside those categories is not an MEO issue.

This sound like a typical hail and farewell deal and is a nice thing for him to do.

socal1200r
04-07-2014, 04:37 PM
Short answer: No

The intent and behavior of the LCPO does not come anywhere near meeting the legal definition of fraternization in the UCMJ. Since this appears to be a "hail and farewell" function, and all the newcomers and transferees are being treated the same by the LCPO (he's paying for ALL their meals), there is no discrimination or favoritism being shown, there is no undue command influence or expectation of favors in return for their meals being paid for, etc. This is a non-issue.

TJMAC77SP
04-07-2014, 07:39 PM
Leading Chief Petty Officer, kind of like what I think you guys call the "Shirt" if I'm not mistaken.

Actually it would be NCOIC (Non-Commissioned Officer In Charge). Perhaps Flight Chief. Probably not the Shirt. There are only one of them in a unit.

garhkal
04-07-2014, 10:01 PM
Short and long of it. We are going to have a command lunch off base. The LCPO is paying for all new members and those that are transferring. As far as I am concerned this is discrimination and not fair. If the chief were to cover the bill he/she would need to pay for EVERYONE attending. Is this grounds to report to the CMEO as the Chief is saying there is nothing wrong with this?

Thanks in advance.

IMO nope its not fraternization. I have been at many a hail and farewell for folks where the chief, Div o or LPO paid for the meals of those who were showing up/leaving.

MACHINE666
04-08-2014, 10:15 AM
Man, I am so glad that I can associate with whomever I choose, now that I am a civilian again. I always thought the whole fraternization/unprofessional relationship thing was crap. It's not like the stuff doesn't happen anyways....

AJBIGJ
04-08-2014, 01:43 PM
Actually it would be NCOIC (Non-Commissioned Officer In Charge). Perhaps Flight Chief. Probably not the Shirt. There are only one of them in a unit.

Yeah, you're right, that description better fits our CMC (Command Master Chief).