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AF2017
04-01-2014, 07:34 AM
Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

Drackore
04-01-2014, 09:16 AM
Here we go again...

snowman
04-01-2014, 09:37 AM
Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

How exactly does someone being exempt from PT cost you money? What about smoker who if you look at the home page cost billions per year in health care cost, why not kick them out? Why not kick out anyone who has a relative with cancer, why risk letting them get cancer in 30 years and having to pay for that? What about people who get injured from doing PT, will they get injured again and cost money..maybe so, lets play it safe and kick them out too? What about women, military has to pay for pregnancy tests, child birth, they get extra leave...thats expensive, lets kick them out too, what about black guys with shaving wiavers..every time they go in to see a doctor to get it renewed that cost money, screw it..lets play it safe and kick out all black men? Nice AF you've created now Hitler

BOSS302
04-01-2014, 10:02 AM
Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

This is not a very good suggestion...

Drackore
04-01-2014, 11:25 AM
It's more like a sad attempt to troll.

imported_DannyJ
04-01-2014, 11:55 AM
How exactly does someone being exempt from PT cost you money? What about smoker who if you look at the home page cost billions per year in health care cost, why not kick them out? Why not kick out anyone who has a relative with cancer, why risk letting them get cancer in 30 years and having to pay for that? What about people who get injured from doing PT, will they get injured again and cost money..maybe so, lets play it safe and kick them out too? What about women, military has to pay for pregnancy tests, child birth, they get extra leave...thats expensive, lets kick them out too, what about black guys with shaving wiavers..every time they go in to see a doctor to get it renewed that cost money, screw it..lets play it safe and kick out all black men? Nice AF you've created now Hitler

Post of the week!

SomeRandomGuy
04-01-2014, 12:47 PM
Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

Why not just kick everyone out at 17.5 years. Then we wouldn't have to pay anything in retirement costs. That would save us billions. On top of that we could make the VA claims process really difficult and deny injury claims. We could probably save a lot of money there too.

BENDER56
04-01-2014, 03:48 PM
Well, my answer would have been, "Because there's still a modicum of compassion and loyalty left within the AF's leadership," but snowman's was much better.

BISSBOSS
04-01-2014, 04:15 PM
Well, my answer would have been, "Because there's still a modicum of compassion and loyalty left within the AF's leadership," but snowman's was much better.

Concur...

imported_DannyJ
04-01-2014, 04:17 PM
Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

Just like to point out that you fail to recognize the cost of replacing them. I'd also be willing to bet your less than 10 years in. Probably less than 5 in. You'll change your tune the second you hit 30.

BOSS302
04-01-2014, 09:42 PM
Just like to point out that you fail to recognize the cost of replacing them. I'd also be willing to bet your less than 10 years in. Probably less than 5 in. You'll change your tune the second you hit 30.

I say he's got no more than two years of service thus far.
He's at his first duty station.
He's still in the dorms.
He has at least one USAF sticker prominently displayed on his Genesis Coupe.
His AFSC falls into Mission Support but he is "totally going to cross train into Pararescue soon" or "totally training for OTS."
He wears Vibram five-toed shoes to PT.
His work locker has no less than two jugs of whey protein mix and three shaker bottles.
He says "Hooah!".
He believes the positive recognition from others is what defines him, thus he'll eat his own if it makes him look pretty.

Could be wrong.
Probably not.

fufu
04-01-2014, 10:57 PM
I say he's got no more than two years of service thus far.
He's at his first duty station.
He's still in the dorms.
He has at least one USAF sticker prominently displayed on his Genesis Coupe.
His AFSC falls into Mission Support but he is "totally going to cross train into Pararescue soon" or "totally training for OTS."
He wears Vibram five-toed shoes to PT.
His work locker has no less than two jugs of whey protein mix and three shaker bottles.
He says "Hooah!".
He believes the positive recognition from others is what defines him, thus he'll eat his own if it makes him look pretty.

Could be wrong.
Probably not.

^Nailed it!

VCO
04-01-2014, 11:10 PM
Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

I guess I'm the only one here that agrees with you. Don't take that to mean this is a bad idea. There are a lot of disgruntled folks on this board. My take is, if folks are injured, they should be taken care of by the VA. They should not be allowed to skip by just to reach 20, so that they can retire and collect disability. If parts of the PT test can be waived, get rid of those parts for everyone. They aren't necessary. The PT test is a condition of employment. It is an emotional subject for sure, but the military isn't a welfare program. That isn't why we exist.

Personally, I like the way the USMC handles this sort of thing. If you can't pass the entire PT test, you aren't reenlisting. It isn't screwing folks. It's taking care of the service and the mission.

Airborne
04-01-2014, 11:48 PM
Thread godwinned in three.

cloudFFVII
04-01-2014, 11:56 PM
Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

Hmm...and I'm just guessing that if this was implemented and you all of a sudden:
- Got a heart condition
- Got in a car accident
- Blew out your knee in Unit PT

And YOU were the one who was being kicked out, with what your car payment, house payment and many other bills, you would be more then happy to take that MEB discharge in stride, right?

Meanwhile, the guys who chain smoke, binge drink, and might manage to pass their PT test but are setting their bodies up for destruction right about the time after they retire, and will become a hundreds of thousand (if not million) dollar drag on our economy (not saying the general populace doesn't has a MUCH bigger role in this at all), but so long as they complete all 4 components under the test, by your logic, then it's OK to keep them, as they are not a drag on the Air Force /facepalm

People should not throw stones in glass houses. Tomorrow it could be you in that exact situation. I'm sure you'd be more then happy to take that minimal disability discharge and head on out to find a job in the real world ;)

Absinthe Anecdote
04-02-2014, 03:54 AM
I guess I'm the only one here that agrees with you. Don't take that to mean this is a bad idea. There are a lot of disgruntled folks on this board. My take is, if folks are injured, they should be taken care of by the VA. They should not be allowed to skip by just to reach 20, so that they can retire and collect disability. If parts of the PT test can be waived, get rid of those parts for everyone. They aren't necessary. The PT test is a condition of employment. It is an emotional subject for sure, but the military isn't a welfare program. That isn't why we exist.

Personally, I like the way the USMC handles this sort of thing. If you can't pass the entire PT test, you aren't reenlisting. It isn't screwing folks. It's taking care of the service and the mission.

Where the hell where you when I needed someone in my corner with my many bouts with Sandsjames on this?

I have preached and preached this but people rarely agree.

PT is a condition of employment and the waist measurement is a mark of your worth as a human.

If a person has a waist measurement above 33 inches they are ridiculous in my opinion. The fact that the Air Force allows 39 inch circus freaks to continue to wear the uniform is beyond absurd.

VCO
04-02-2014, 09:50 AM
Hmm...and I'm just guessing that if this was implemented and you all of a sudden:
- Got a heart condition
- Got in a car accident
- Blew out your knee in Unit PT

And YOU were the one who was being kicked out, with what your car payment, house payment and many other bills, you would be more then happy to take that MEB discharge in stride, right?

That is why folks get in this situation get disability/medical retirement. You sound like you want a handout.



Meanwhile, the guys who chain smoke, binge drink, and might manage to pass their PT test but are setting their bodies up for destruction right about the time after they retire, and will become a hundreds of thousand (if not million) dollar drag on our economy (not saying the general populace doesn't has a MUCH bigger role in this at all), but so long as they complete all 4 components under the test, by your logic, then it's OK to keep them, as they are not a drag on the Air Force /facepalm
;)
Giant misconception here. Folks that do the things you mention save the government a ton of money in healthcare costs. Research it. The true expense on the taxpayers are the health nuts that live for 40-50 years after retirement.

VCO
04-02-2014, 09:53 AM
Where the hell where you when I needed someone in my corner with my many bouts with Sandsjames on this?

I have preached and preached this but people rarely agree.

PT is a condition of employment and the waist measurement is a mark of your worth as a human.

If a person has a waist measurement above 33 inches they are ridiculous in my opinion. The fact that the Air Force allows 39 inch circus freaks to continue to wear the uniform is beyond absurd.

A post of extremes. I'm sure you are trolling, but I'm always on the side of objective logic.

SomeRandomGuy
04-02-2014, 12:38 PM
I guess I'm the only one here that agrees with you. Don't take that to mean this is a bad idea. There are a lot of disgruntled folks on this board. My take is, if folks are injured, they should be taken care of by the VA. They should not be allowed to skip by just to reach 20, so that they can retire and collect disability. If parts of the PT test can be waived, get rid of those parts for everyone. They aren't necessary. The PT test is a condition of employment. It is an emotional subject for sure, but the military isn't a welfare program. That isn't why we exist.

Personally, I like the way the USMC handles this sort of thing. If you can't pass the entire PT test, you aren't reenlisting. It isn't screwing folks. It's taking care of the service and the mission.

The solution to the problem with injured people is the 401K match retirement program. Right now people seem to view a military career as a sort of marathon. The finish line is the 20 year mark. It doesn't matter how you make it there. Even if you literally have to crawl the last mile you finished and that is an amazing accomplishment which should be rewarded. Other than personal pride what is the reason for finishing that last mile? Certainly no one recieved any benefit out of it other than the competitor.

Now imagine you have a system that rewards you based on longevity but also allows you to walk away with what you have already accrued and feel like you accomplished something. If we can create a system where a person who does 15 years gets 75% of what he would have at 20 years we wouldn't have people staying long after they are needed. We also wouldn't feel bad about kicking people out because they are no longer able to complete the job. In my opinion, it is a win win for everyone. This of course comes with the caveat that it needs to be phased in. We can't change the system on the people who started this marathon out 15 years ago. We need to let them finish what they started. For new people though, we need to make it clear they are running a different race.

imported_AFKILO7
04-02-2014, 11:17 PM
Last April I tore the meniscus while simultaneously ripping it off my knee knee during PT. It took over 100 days before I was able to get in for a MRI, it took another month waiting for surgery. I am still on a profile, but I should be released sometime in April this year. I've been on a profile for almost an entire year. Going by the OP I should be separated. That is the biggest pile of poo I've ever heard. I will have had four PT tests while on a profile. Whatever, I'm back to running a quarter mile in 1:30 and I can max out both PU and SU while maintaining a 36inch waist. Soon I'll be back to running in the low to mid 11's.
Yup, people who are injured should have absolutely no chance to recover. Go piss up a rope you moron.

VCO
04-03-2014, 10:08 AM
Last April I tore the meniscus while simultaneously ripping it off my knee knee during PT. It took over 100 days before I was able to get in for a MRI, it took another month waiting for surgery. I am still on a profile, but I should be released sometime in April this year. I've been on a profile for almost an entire year. Going by the OP I should be separated. That is the biggest pile of poo I've ever heard. I will have had four PT tests while on a profile. Whatever, I'm back to running a quarter mile in 1:30 and I can max out both PU and SU while maintaining a 36inch waist. Soon I'll be back to running in the low to mid 11's.
Yup, people who are injured should have absolutely no chance to recover. Go piss up a rope you moron.

Don't be so dramatic. A temporary, recoverable injury such as yours shouldn't be an issue. People get hurt. The key is can you recover and meet the standard? It sounds like you can and will. Now, several years of exemptions should be a sign someone needs to move on from the military. Nothing against them. I will be first in line to thank them for their service. However, we have plenty of folks available that have no problem meeting the standard. The old injured warhorse needs to be taken out of the game and medically retired.

AF2017
04-03-2014, 12:31 PM
Been in a lot longer than 10. I guess I'm just frustrated. This is my 2nd assignment in a row with a problem child. Not a bad worker or trouble maker, just always going to doctors appointments. This person spends more time at dr appointments then at work. All of us have to pick up the slack. TDY/Deployment comes up, guess who isn't going? That person. 12 hour shifts, guess who isn't working? My opinion as well as others (and yes were not Drs) but we think this person is a hypochondriac. This person always has something wrong and its always changing. I go to leadership, with documentation on how much work this person has missed and get no help. We have to show compassion? Well, Sir, I have a mission to get done. I just don't get it, this person has seen the MEB the last 4+ years but is always retained. Why? I see it more and more across the AF. Why can't we help them and everyone else and Medically Retire them. They get a nice check the rest of there life and we get rid of them. People like this are more of a burden, than manning help. Everyone is concern with manning, but sometimes you have to cut bait!

Absinthe Anecdote
04-03-2014, 12:54 PM
Been in a lot longer than 10. I guess I'm just frustrated. This is my 2nd assignment in a row with a problem child. Not a bad worker or trouble maker, just always going to doctors appointments. This person spends more time at dr appointments then at work. All of us have to pick up the slack. TDY/Deployment comes up, guess who isn't going? That person. 12 hour shifts, guess who isn't working? My opinion as well as others (and yes were not Drs) but we think this person is a hypochondriac. This person always has something wrong and its always changing. I go to leadership, with documentation on how much work this person has missed and get no help. We have to show compassion? Well, Sir, I have a mission to get done. I just don't get it, this person has seen the MEB the last 4+ years but is always retained. Why? I see it more and more across the AF. Why can't we help them and everyone else and Medically Retire them. They get a nice check the rest of there life and we get rid of them. People like this are more of a burden, than manning help. Everyone is concern with manning, but sometimes you have to cut bait!

Don't focus on his medical issues then. Evaluate his job performance, if he is out of work that often, then it must be lacking.
Write him the most vanilla and critical EPRs that his duty performance warrants.

Have you ever talked to him about this? If you are too afraid to talk to him about it, maybe you should just print out a copy of the post you just made and leave it on his desk. :)

I'm sure you'll get his attention.

Seriously, it sounds like you have to make an effort to understand what is going on with this guy. If it really is malingering, it should be obvious, and then seek the advice of your Chief.

Don't print out your post and leave it on his desk, I was just joking about that.

SomeRandomGuy
04-03-2014, 01:05 PM
Don't focus on his medical issues then. Evaluate his job performance, if he is out of work that often, then it must be lacking.
Write him the most vanilla and critical EPRs that his duty performance warrants.

Have you ever talked to him about this? If you are too afraid to talk to him about it, maybe you should just print out a copy of the post you just made and leave it on his desk. :)

I'm sure you'll get his attention.

Seriously, it sounds like you have to make an effort to understand what is going on with this guy. If it really is malingering, it should be obvious, and then seek the advice of your Chief.

Don't print out your post and leave it on his desk, I was just joking about that.

This morning I came into work and AF2017's post was on my desk. Now I'm going to spend half the day at mental health. That really hurt.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-03-2014, 02:38 PM
This morning I came into work and AF2017's post was on my desk. Now I'm going to spend half the day at mental health. That really hurt.

I would be willing to wager that AF2017 will print his post and leave it on that guy's desk.

When I was a SSgt I used to do crap like that all the time. I would leave vaguely accusatory unsigned notes all over the office about people who pissed me off.

I never put anyone's name on them, especially mine, but I was always on the list of prime suspects. Probably the only thing that saved me from being discovered was other people would invariably start typing up notes of their own and leave them all over the office.

I once typed up an allegorical story about a magical pony that missed an excessive amount of work due to child care issues; it caused a major rift in the office and the paper was forwarded to OSI by the First Sergeant. I heard the unit CC was extremely pissed at the First Sergeant for doing that. I'm sure OSI laughed their asses off at that letter and never lifted a finger, but at the time, I was sweating bullets for a little while. Suspicion eventually shifted to a NSA civilian.

After that, I would always tailored my subsequent notes to draw suspicion toward the civilian work force.

I was a rascal of a SSgt and didn't really calm down until I sewed on MSgt.

BENDER56
04-03-2014, 03:53 PM
Don't focus on his medical issues then. Evaluate his job performance, if he is out of work that often, then it must be lacking.
Write him the most vanilla and critical EPRs that his duty performance warrants.

Have you ever talked to him about this? If you are too afraid to talk to him about it, maybe you should just print out a copy of the post you just made and leave it on his desk. :)

I'm sure you'll get his attention.

Seriously, it sounds like you have to make an effort to understand what is going on with this guy. If it really is malingering, it should be obvious, and then seek the advice of your Chief.

Don't print out your post and leave it on his desk, I was just joking about that.

My guess is you should have written hers/her/gal instead of his/him/guy.

Vrake
04-03-2014, 04:07 PM
Anybody else look at the date of the original post and take it as such?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-03-2014, 04:28 PM
My guess is you should have written hers/her/gal instead of his/him/guy.

Weren't you a First Sergeant? I guess you would have an informed opinion about which sex has the most amount of missed duty time due to medical appointments.

However, had I been in the same unit as you, I might have been tempted to write a story about a magical elf who was the Sergeant-at-Arms of Elf Town and was a latent misogynist.

BENDER56
04-03-2014, 06:03 PM
Weren't you a First Sergeant? I guess you would have an informed opinion about which sex has the most amount of missed duty time due to medical appointments.

However, had I been in the same unit as you, I might have been tempted to write a story about a magical elf who was the Sergeant-at-Arms of Elf Town and was a latent misogynist.

It was more about AF2017's careful non-use of any gender-identifying words in the post you commented on that led me to suspect he's talking about a female -- but that's just an unsupported assumption. Did you automatically assume he was referring to a male or were you just using male pronouns to avoid awkward constructions like, "he/she"? 'Cause I do that, too.

I don't recall slackers being more of the female or male variety, so I apologize for sounding sexist. ("Misogynist" implies a degree of dislike or hate for females -- a subtext I believe was lacking from my comment.)

That said, the problems I dealt with as a 1st Sgt of female-heavy squadrons, such as MSS and the Med Goup, were, on whole, different than those I encountered in male-intense units like AMXs and LRS.

Elf?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-03-2014, 07:47 PM
It was more about AF2017's careful non-use of any gender-identifying words in the post you commented on that led me to suspect he's talking about a female -- but that's just an unsupported assumption. Did you automatically assume he was referring to a male or were you just using male pronouns to avoid awkward constructions like, "he/she"? 'Cause I do that, too.

I don't recall slackers being more of the female or male variety, so I apologize for sounding sexist. ("Misogynist" implies a degree of dislike or hate for females -- a subtext I believe was lacking from my comment.)

That said, the problems I dealt with as a 1st Sgt of female-heavy squadrons, such as MSS and the Med Goup, were, on whole, different than those I encountered in male-intense units like AMXs and LRS.

Elf?

I envisioned it was a male he was talking about, but I don't think it matters.

I don't really think you are a misogynist for saying you thought he was talking about a female, but I do think there is a high probability that you are a magical elf or some type of ice dwarf.

BENDER56
04-04-2014, 12:57 AM
I... but I do think there is a high probability that you are a magical elf or some type of ice dwarf.

Nah, I was a 4N0 before I became a shirt. Not sure what AFSC the elves and ice dwarfs were.

imported_DannyJ
04-04-2014, 02:45 AM
So many better ways to handle a RIF...

imported_AFKILO7
04-04-2014, 11:30 AM
Don't be so dramatic. A temporary, recoverable injury such as yours shouldn't be an issue. People get hurt. The key is can you recover and meet the standard? It sounds like you can and will. Now, several years of exemptions should be a sign someone needs to move on from the military. Nothing against them. I will be first in line to thank them for their service. However, we have plenty of folks available that have no problem meeting the standard. The old injured warhorse needs to be taken out of the game and medically retired.

I may have needed a snickers bar the day I wrote my response. I am a little salty on this subject simply because up until now I've been unable to get back into PT'ing like I want, some people in my unit like to make snide comments about people on profiles. I get tremendous satisfaction when I go to PT and I am still capable of outrunning the same people even though I've been on profile for almost a year.


Why aren't we kicking out folks who go before the MEB each year? If your exempt for more than 2 things on the Fitness Assessment, grounds for removal. Non-Deployable, grounds for removal. In the long run, these folks cost us more money. How many folks retire each year who have been looked at by the MEB for the past 4-5 years and now get Retirement plus high VA Disability rating. Why not remove these folks and just pay them VA disability instead of both?

When I read this initially I got the impression you were making a blanket statement regarding everyone who was exempt...etc. My B.

MACHINE666
04-04-2014, 11:35 AM
Nah, I was a 4N0 before I became a shirt. Not sure what AFSC the elves and ice dwarfs were.

Why is the 4N0 careerfield so full of idiots? Seriously. I wouldn't trust them to save me if I was literally dying. My experiences as a former 4F and 4E has taught me to avoid the clinic and instead go on the economy for any health care issues that I may have. 4F's were assholes, but they knew their stuff, and 4Es have luckily been put in a position to where they can't do anyone any serious harm....just follow the checklist when you're inspecting Chili's and you can't go wrong.

Drackore
04-04-2014, 07:02 PM
Are you taking into account, at all, the game that the medical hobby shop plays in these situations? Are they really treating him, or just seeing how much they can ping-pong him back and forth?

Don't tell me that doesn't happen either. If it's becoming such a problem, get more involved. Find out what they are doing for your troop and if it sounds like the above, maybe it's time to convince them to see the Shirt, Commander, and patient advocate. Because yes, them missing all that work puts a strain on you, your shop, and VCO's mighty mighty Air Force but maybe...just maybe this person WANTS to be working instead of playing MDG's "put off real treatment" games.

BENDER56
04-05-2014, 03:26 PM
Why is the 4N0 careerfield so full of idiots? Seriously. I wouldn't trust them to save me if I was literally dying. My experiences as a former 4F and 4E has taught me to avoid the clinic and instead go on the economy for any health care issues that I may have. 4F's were assholes, but they knew their stuff, and 4Es have luckily been put in a position to where they can't do anyone any serious harm....just follow the checklist when you're inspecting Chili's and you can't go wrong.

Can't help you with this one.

I left the career field in '98 but I don't seem to recall that my fellow 4N0s were any better or worse than people I encountered in other AFSs.

As for their competence today, all I can say is, at MacDill anyway, they seem to be able to take vital signs. I have no interaction with them besides that.

Now if you want to talk incompetence, I've got plenty of horror stories about the corpsmen at Navy Hospital Pensacola. (To be fair, I received overall good treatment from the PAs and docs there, but the corpsmen were awful.)