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mikezulu1
03-29-2014, 01:46 AM
8months in prison, reduced to E-1 bad conduct discharge. And the witch hunt continues...


Ellis threatened to beat up trainees, send them home in body bags, cut off a trainee’s testicles and shove a guidon up one recruit’s urethra, according to the newspaper’s account. She ordered trainees to work out naked and instigated a fight between two trainees that left one with a black eye, and then told them to lie about how it happened.

I dont see any sexual/physical abuse. We have gone soft as a nation. Should she have been punished for overstepping her bounds? Sure. But to ruin the rest of her life I dont think its appropriate. People forget we are supposed to be breaking them down, preparing them to be able to put there life on the line in defense of our nation. Rotting from the inside, its no wonder we cant win wars anymore.

OtisRNeedleman
03-29-2014, 02:11 AM
Yes, the punishment is well deserved.

I went through basic training in 1974, during what some would consider ancient history. Our TIs were tough but they never said or did anything even close to what this person was convicted of doing.

Making trainees work out naked? Instigating a fight between trainees? Threatening them with being beaten up? That's not good training, that's abuse. Would you want a TI to put YOUR kid through that? I certainly wouldn't.

Don't need to abuse people to win wars. If we can't win wars don't look at the warfighters. Look at the civilians who promulgate rules of engagement.

Chief_KO
03-29-2014, 02:22 AM
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. (theme song from Baretta, as sung by Sammy Davis Jr.)

I went through BMT in 1982, and nothing close to this ever happened. Even back then TIs were instructed not to curse (yes some did slip, but never a tirade). There were TIs that were jerks (our first one and the one that ran the PT pad), but the rest were good and educated us, not intimidated or led by fear.

Since this is so widespread, I seriously hope there was some root cause analysis conducted to try to find a common reason...did all these TIs enter the blue hat world around the same time? did they all attend school at the same or near same time? did they share a common TI instructor at school? did they share a common sit-behind TI? did they all socialize together, be in the same social circle (clique)...I find it hard to believe there is not some common thread or threads...

technomage1
03-29-2014, 02:23 AM
These are the actions of a bully, not a TI. anyone who thinks this is appropriate in any way, please stay far, far away from trainees or supervisory roles.

There is a huge difference between preparing people to be tough physically and emotionally and abuse and bullying. You do not need to do/be the later to accomplish the former.

wxjumper
03-29-2014, 04:10 AM
8months in prison, reduced to E-1 bad conduct discharge. And the witch hunt continues...


Ellis threatened to beat up trainees, send them home in body bags, cut off a trainee’s testicles and shove a guidon up one recruit’s urethra, according to the newspaper’s account. She ordered trainees to work out naked and instigated a fight between two trainees that left one with a black eye, and then told them to lie about how it happened.

I dont see any sexual/physical abuse. We have gone soft as a nation. Should she have been punished for overstepping her bounds? Sure. But to ruin the rest of her life I dont think its appropriate. People forget we are supposed to be breaking them down, preparing them to be able to put there life on the line in defense of our nation. Rotting from the inside, its no wonder we cant win wars anymore.

Would you have rather her got 44.5 years which would have been the max sentence for the crimes she committed? It looks like she got off relatively easy at 8 months. That is only 1.8% of the jail time that she could of got.

OtisRNeedleman
03-29-2014, 05:15 AM
Would you have rather her got 44.5 years which would have been the max sentence for the crimes she committed? It looks like she got off relatively easy at 8 months. That is only 1.8% of the jail time that she could of got.

Agree. She got off very easy, indeed.

sandsjames
03-29-2014, 11:12 AM
If it wasn't for the physical stuff (instigating the fight) and making them work out naked, I'd see no issue.

The verbal isn't a problem, in my view. This isn't like verbally abusing a child. These are adults. They should be able to handle that part.

Stalwart
03-29-2014, 12:46 PM
These are the actions of a bully, not a TI. anyone who thinks this is appropriate in any way, please stay far, far away from trainees or supervisory roles.

There is a huge difference between preparing people to be tough physically and emotionally and abuse and bullying. You do not need to do/be the later to accomplish the former.

Exactly, I have seen many 'leaders' who were actually bullies with very little leadership.

None of my Drill Instructors (USMC or at USN OCS) threated to kill or beat us, incentive PT was the norm (but not naked PT), nor was instigating us to fight each other outside of the hand to hand or pugil stick training.

BRUWIN
03-29-2014, 06:12 PM
I went through BMT in 1982, and nothing close to this ever happened.

I went through same year. remember one of my flight member's went downstairs and complained about the TI throwing our mail across the day room and we had to catch it. So we had wusses back then too. And you are right...there wasn't a lot of the crap going on then that we hear of today.

jshiver15
03-29-2014, 07:25 PM
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. (theme song from Baretta, as sung by Sammy Davis Jr.)

I went through BMT in 1982, and nothing close to this ever happened. Even back then TIs were instructed not to curse (yes some did slip, but never a tirade). There were TIs that were jerks (our first one and the one that ran the PT pad), but the rest were good and educated us, not intimidated or led by fear.

Since this is so widespread, I seriously hope there was some root cause analysis conducted to try to find a common reason...did all these TIs enter the blue hat world around the same time? did they all attend school at the same or near same time? did they share a common TI instructor at school? did they share a common sit-behind TI? did they all socialize together, be in the same social circle (clique)...I find it hard to believe there is not some common thread or threads...

Not to be "that guy", but when you went through basic training you also started out running .25 miles for PT and had smoke breaks. We also weren't putting Airmen in convoys OTW with the Army or doing the tasks we're doing now. Not saying the TI wasn't at fault, because she certainly was, but I don't know if I could really draw the comparison between basic training 30 years apart.

jshiver15
03-29-2014, 07:27 PM
If it wasn't for the physical stuff (instigating the fight) and making them work out naked, I'd see no issue.

The verbal isn't a problem, in my view. This isn't like verbally abusing a child. These are adults. They should be able to handle that part.

Not to mention the line for inappropriate has been severely pushed to the right in the past few generations. I don't think the threat of "knocking the tar" out of someone would garner the same response now that it would have 30 years ago.

garhkal
03-29-2014, 08:50 PM
8months in prison, reduced to E-1 bad conduct discharge. And the witch hunt continues...


Ellis threatened to beat up trainees, send them home in body bags, cut off a trainee’s testicles and shove a guidon up one recruit’s urethra, according to the newspaper’s account. She ordered trainees to work out naked and instigated a fight between two trainees that left one with a black eye, and then told them to lie about how it happened.

I dont see any sexual/physical abuse. We have gone soft as a nation. Should she have been punished for overstepping her bounds? Sure. But to ruin the rest of her life I dont think its appropriate. People forget we are supposed to be breaking them down, preparing them to be able to put there life on the line in defense of our nation. Rotting from the inside, its no wonder we cant win wars anymore.

So forcing 2 people to fight, then when they got questioned to 'lie about how it happened' is NOT physical abuse IYO> Strange.

jshiver15
03-29-2014, 09:05 PM
So forcing 2 people to fight, then when they got questioned to 'lie about how it happened' is NOT physical abuse IYO> Strange.

I've heard mixed reports on "forcing" two people to fight. I read on one account that she told them, out right, to fight. The other was that she said "to handle it" and left.

AFcynic
03-29-2014, 10:12 PM
Since this is so widespread, I seriously hope there was some root cause analysis conducted to try to find a common reason...did all these TIs enter the blue hat world around the same time? did they all attend school at the same or near same time? did they share a common TI instructor at school? did they share a common sit-behind TI? did they all socialize together, be in the same social circle (clique)...I find it hard to believe there is not some common thread or threads...

If you read the Woodward report, you'll see that the command directed investigation did the root cause analysis. In late 2008/early 2009, BMT leadership decided that they needed bodies to offset a severe manning deficit. They lowered the requirements and qualifications, and let a lot of people become MTIs. There were some good ones, but there were some really bad ones. Most of the people that came to BMT in 2009 were senior airmen, or brand new staff sergeants with ZERO supervisory experience. Keep in mind that most of these applicants were 22-25 years old, and not that far removed from BMT themselves. At the same time the flood gates opened, BMT also tasked former MTIs with 179 day "deployments" to Lackland. You had a lot of TDY instructors here that had no desire to be here, and they were not only pissed off, they were pissed off pushing flights, and training the new MTIs on how to do their new special duty. These TDY instructors taught the new instructors how to get results, and get results quickly. Were they approved training methods? Nope. Not by a long shot. These new MTIs saw that "beating ass" was the only to get the trainees to do what they wanted to do. When the TDYers left, the new MTIs were running the show. Meanwhile, as time rolled on, they themselves became the trainers. It became a vicious cycle that is now starting to finally go away.

Did you know that AB Ellis had already received an Article 15 years ago when she was an instructor? She had been busted from SSgt to SrA, and made SSgt again after she left BMT. Every instructor makes crazy off the wall statements. They do/did it for effect. Instructors say stuff like "I'm going break my foot off in your ass", and it's not a legitimate threat. It's hyperbole. She was taught how to be bad a long time ago, and for a long time, enlisted BMT leadership kept punishments "in house" when trainees complained about things like throwing mail, offensive language, etc.

I disagree with her tactics, but I wholeheartedly believe she was made out to be a scapegoat. The guy that made the trainee put Icy Hot on his nuts only got six months, and busted to SSgt. He's still in the Air Force! AB Ellis didn't do any of that, but was forced to become a sacrificial lamb. This stuff happened over 3 years ago. If you're not over your MTI being mean to you, then maybe you have a problem. You're being trained in basic training! It's supposed to be intense. The military wants to see if you'll be able to fix a plane on the flightline in Arizona in the middle of summer. They want to see if you'll be able to return fire when you're being shot at in the AOR. These are all stressful situations that require some kind of knowledge of your abilities to handle things of this nature. In the 6th week of training, we teach trainees how to shoot M16s. A weapon designed to KILL OTHER PEOPLE. Your job in the military is to directly or indirectly find a way to make terrorist groups or other countries FAIL (or die). If you can't handle being called a bad name, or have someone cuss you out for a mistake you've made, then maybe the problem lies with the individual.

Eight months in jail, a BCD, and reduction to E-1 was far too excessive. The next investigation that SHOULD happen is into the judge, and his relationship with group, wing, and MAJCOM leaders. Maybe their emails should get read out loud the way it happened for Army BG Sinclair. This is hidden unlawful command influence, and while it probably will never happen, I'd love to see these "leaders" in the same position as AB Ellis - with their lives damaged, and careers destroyed

jshiver15
03-29-2014, 10:35 PM
If you read the Woodward report. . . careers destroyed

Everything you said: very well said.

mikezulu1
03-29-2014, 11:51 PM
All the people who are saying she got what he deserved I wonder how many have cussed at a subordinate/new trainee out of frustration when at work. Or have contributed to the threads that whine for the days of the "hard ass NCO" or "wall to wall counseling" I am in a tech training environment and we have been told that if trainees report instructors using foul language expect an investigation an NJP to follow, even if comments aren't directed at them. Just so that we are clear we are fighting enemies that are beheading non-combatants on television,strapping bombs to women and using other illegal combat methods and we are ending careers of decorated NCOs for the words shit and fuck? Seems legit.

OtisRNeedleman
03-30-2014, 12:29 AM
All the people who are saying she got what he deserved I wonder how many have cussed at a subordinate/new trainee out of frustration when at work. Or have contributed to the threads that whine for the days of the "hard ass NCO" or "wall to wall counseling" I am in a tech training environment and we have been told that if trainees report instructors using foul language expect an investigation an NJP to follow, even if comments aren't directed at them. Just so that we are clear we are fighting enemies that are beheading non-combatants on television,strapping bombs to women and using other illegal combat methods and we are ending careers of decorated NCOs for the words shit and fuck? Seems legit. No, never cursed at my troops or students. Former technical training instructor, retired field grade here. Having said that, I do believe trainees reporting instructors for bad language is going overboard.

A vignette from basic training, 1974. Remember one of our TIs saying he would never call us a son-of-a-bitch or a motherfucker, because that was disrespectful to our mothers. They called us other things, but never those.

OtisRNeedleman
03-30-2014, 12:36 AM
Not to be "that guy", but when you went through basic training you also started out running .25 miles for PT and had smoke breaks. We also weren't putting Airmen in convoys OTW with the Army or doing the tasks we're doing now. Not saying the TI wasn't at fault, because she certainly was, but I don't know if I could really draw the comparison between basic training 30 years apart.

Yes, I was also from the time of the quarter-mile PT run and the smoke breaks. However, the type of basic training has nothing to do with the tasks being accomplished, then or now. It's still wrong to threaten and abuse trainees. Basic training is there to transform civilians into airmen, teach airmen teamwork and basic military schools, and sometimes turn kids into adults. All other skills are trained after basic training.

wxjumper
03-30-2014, 03:58 AM
All the people who are saying she got what he deserved I wonder how many have cussed at a subordinate/new trainee out of frustration when at work. Or have contributed to the threads that whine for the days of the "hard ass NCO" or "wall to wall counseling" I am in a tech training environment and we have been told that if trainees report instructors using foul language expect an investigation an NJP to follow, even if comments aren't directed at them. Just so that we are clear we are fighting enemies that are beheading non-combatants on television,strapping bombs to women and using other illegal combat methods and we are ending careers of decorated NCOs for the words shit and fuck? Seems legit.

I never cussed at a subordinate. But then again, that isn't the crime she is being charged with.

wxjumper
03-30-2014, 04:05 AM
By the way, in this day and age who would ever what to be a drill instructor? You can do everything right, and then have your career and life totally fucken ruined by a single vindictive trainee.

retiredAFcivvy
03-30-2014, 05:08 AM
No, never cursed at my troops or students. Former technical training instructor, retired field grade here. Having said that, I do believe trainees reporting instructors for bad language is going overboard.

A vignette from basic training, 1974. Remember one of our TIs saying he would never call us a son-of-a-bitch or a motherfucker, because that was disrespectful to our mothers. They called us other things, but never those.

Going back a little further (basic training 1966) I don't recall any TIs cursing at us. Big deal then was the threat of washing back to start all over. There was a couple instances of a TI overturning a trainees foot locker.

BRUWIN
03-30-2014, 05:11 AM
Going back a little further (basic training 1966) I don't recall any TIs cursing at us. Big deal then was the threat of washing back to start all over. There was a couple instances of a TI overturning a trainees foot locker.

I came in in 1982...they cussed at us all the time from what I remember. I tried like hell to stay under the radar but my marching was suspect. My TI said I marched "like a duck with a dick up his ass." I never took it personally.

sandsjames
03-30-2014, 12:15 PM
I came in in 1982...they cussed at us all the time from what I remember. I tried like hell to stay under the radar but my marching was suspect. My TI said I marched "like a duck with a dick up his ass." I never took it personally.

If they said the same thing today, they'd have to answer to SARC and PETA.

jshiver15
03-30-2014, 12:51 PM
Yes, I was also from the time of the quarter-mile PT run and the smoke breaks. However, the type of basic training has nothing to do with the tasks being accomplished, then or now. It's still wrong to threaten and abuse trainees. Basic training is there to transform civilians into airmen, teach airmen teamwork and basic military schools, and sometimes turn kids into adults. All other skills are trained after basic training.

I agree that trainees shouldn't be abused, but we're asking 18-19 year olds to grow up even faster now. I truly believe before there was so much more lee-way for young men and women to grow into adults back then, but now we're pushing kids through BMT, tech school, and immediately preparing many of them for deployments. Not to mention we're also booting people for offenses that were marginally frowned upon around the time you came in. It's a completely different environment that we're still learning to adapt to. Again, was the instructor right for what she did? No. But is she kind of a product of the environment around her? Absolutely. I just think she took it too far.

jshiver15
03-30-2014, 12:53 PM
By the way, in this day and age who would ever what to be a drill instructor? You can do everything right, and then have your career and life totally fucken ruined by a single vindictive trainee.

I cannot answer to the absolute validity of this, but I've worked with a MSgt who was previously an MTI and, according to him, they blanket demoted a bunch of people in his TRS that were promoted during a time that the Air Force decided that entire squadron acted dishonorably.

If you want to avoid being a MTI, all you have to do is be exceptionally average.

garhkal
03-30-2014, 07:20 PM
All the people who are saying she got what he deserved I wonder how many have cussed at a subordinate/new trainee out of frustration when at work. Or have contributed to the threads that whine for the days of the "hard ass NCO" or "wall to wall counseling" I am in a tech training environment and we have been told that if trainees report instructors using foul language expect an investigation an NJP to follow, even if comments aren't directed at them. Just so that we are clear we are fighting enemies that are beheading non-combatants on television,strapping bombs to women and using other illegal combat methods and we are ending careers of decorated NCOs for the words shit and fuck? Seems legit.

Cussed yes. Asked them if they would prefer a session of fan room counciling versus getting wrote up, yes. Threatened to kill them, or force them to fight one another.. heck no.

OtisRNeedleman
03-30-2014, 07:59 PM
I cannot answer to the absolute validity of this, but I've worked with a MSgt who was previously an MTI and, according to him, they blanket demoted a bunch of people in his TRS that were promoted during a time that the Air Force decided that entire squadron acted dishonorably.

If you want to avoid being a MTI, all you have to do is be exceptionally average.

Don't believe there was any blanket demotion. That just doesn't happen. Demotions happen due to individual UCMJ actions. Have never heard where the AF decided an entire squadron acted dishonorably. This would have been all over the AF Times. Congress would have held hearings, especially if there had been blanket demotions. People would have written their Congressperson.

mikezulu1
03-30-2014, 10:07 PM
Cussed yes. Asked them if they would prefer a session of fan room counciling versus getting wrote up, yes. Threatened to kill them, or force them to fight one another.. heck no.

Then you sir are just as guilty. She was convicted of 24 counts of maltreatment.

According to AETCI36-2216 maltreatment is defined as:Maltreatment (verbal)—Any language that degrades, belittles, demeans, or slanders an individual or group based on color, national origin, race, religion, age, ethnic group, gender, or physical stature. Includes, but is not limited to, (1) the use of profanity and any insinuation of immoral, unethical, illegal, or unprofessional conduct; (2) crude, offensive language in rhymes or prose as memory devices (mnemonics); and/or (3) training tools that contain profane words, offensive language, or inappropriate sexual or gender references. Any language that establishes a hostile environment constitutes and promotes sexual harassment, or disrespect to men and/or women

Just because you didnt threaten to kill someone doesnt mean you arent guilty...you violated the law. I suggest you turn yourself in to your local SF squadron and we end your career, sound fair?

Absinthe Anecdote
03-30-2014, 10:19 PM
I have heard of the blanket demotion before, it happened the same year that a recruit woke up in the middle of the night and decapitated half his flight with a pair of those little scissors that come in the sewing kits.

The way the story goes, the TIs had ordered extra salt peter be put into those two glasses of water that all the trainees have to drink before each meal. Apparently, there had been a rash of people having sex in the big green trash dumpsters so the TIs ordered a double dose of salt peter to put a stop to it.

However, since this was after the Vietnam War, there was a surplus of Agent Orange being stored in a warehouse on Lackland right next to surplus crates of Tang leftover from the Apollo space program. Somehow the Agent Orange was delivered to the chow hall instead of Tang the same day that the double doses of salt peter was being administered.

Anyway, Agent Orange and salt peter can make people go crazy so the blanket demotions were ordered for the TIs and the trainees that survived were all sent to Brooks AFB to be test subjects on the big centrifuge they have over there. The airmen that survived the centrifuge tests were then sent back to Lackland and trained to be Security Police.

I had one of those Agent Orange/Tang centrifuge SPs as my first supervisor. Cool guy, he could fit a whole can of Pringles in his mouth and swallow them without blinking.

Koa1121
03-30-2014, 11:14 PM
Cussed yes. Asked them if they would prefer a session of fan room counciling versus getting wrote up, yes. Threatened to kill them, or force them to fight one another.. heck no.

You must have read a different article than I did. I don't recall reading anything that said she forced trainees to fight. She did a lot wrong, and deserved some punishment, but don't make false accusations. The naked PT, and wall sits are definitely against the regulation. But, i'd be ashamed of myself, or anyone I know for testifying against an instructor for empty threats. Did anyone really think she'd "rip out their trachea" or "cut their balls off"? I highly doubt it. In fact, some testified that they were giggling after she said some of those things. When I went through on 2001 there was plenty of cussing and plenty of threats. Did I ever feel like my instructor would really kill any of us? No. Anyone who does is just dumb.. Did I ever feel like reporting my MTI for cussing? No. Because I knew I joined the military and expected it. Will these same Airmen report their OIC's and Chiefs for cussing at a hail & farewell, or Chief's call? Nope. Will they report their coworkers for cussing on the flightline while fixing jet? Nope. Hell, during a Chief's call while I was at Lackland, the Chief was dropping F bombs left and right, and this was going on in the midst of MTI's losing hats and stripes for much less.

garhkal
03-31-2014, 07:06 AM
Then you sir are just as guilty. She was convicted of 24 counts of maltreatment.

According to AETCI36-2216 maltreatment is defined as:Maltreatment (verbal)—Any language that degrades, belittles, demeans, or slanders an individual or group based on color, national origin, race, religion, age, ethnic group, gender, or physical stature. Includes, but is not limited to, (1) the use of profanity and any insinuation of immoral, unethical, illegal, or unprofessional conduct; (2) crude, offensive language in rhymes or prose as memory devices (mnemonics); and/or (3) training tools that contain profane words, offensive language, or inappropriate sexual or gender references. Any language that establishes a hostile environment constitutes and promotes sexual harassment, or disrespect to men and/or women

Just because you didnt threaten to kill someone doesnt mean you arent guilty...you violated the law. I suggest you turn yourself in to your local SF squadron and we end your career, sound fair?

Very true, by the letter of the law (profanity) i did violate it. BUt do you honestly think my crime is worthy of getting as bad a punishment as someone who threatens to cut you up and send you home (or what ever it was she said) AND order juniors to fight one another then lie about it?


You must have read a different article than I did. I don't recall reading anything that said she forced trainees to fight. She did a lot wrong, and deserved some punishment, but don't make false accusations.I was commenting on the first post, where it did mention she ordered 2 people to fight and lie about it after.

Koa1121
03-31-2014, 04:50 PM
She never "ordered" them to fight. Instead of writing that again and again (which the first post doesn't even say) go read the article that explains the situation. By no means is she an angel, and telling them to lie about it is not good, empty verbal threats are just that, empty. No sane person honestly thinks that she would take a pair of scissors and start snipping testicles off on the drill pad. In this day and age for instructors who know that the trainees have the ultimate power over them and leadership will always take the trainees' word over the MTI it's tough sledding to push a flight. Kids these days that are coming in are different. They join for different reasons and the curriculum at BMT hasn't changed to match that. The focus is still 100% on the instructor, and their performance. The truth is the culture at BMT is so far off base that pretty much all instructors are so fearful of reprimands for anything from saying "hell", to poor dorm or drill scores that actually training trainees to be good Airmen takes a back seat. There is so much pressure on the instructor to get good scores in the dorm and at ceremonies that some have a difficult time attaining those scores and resort to outlandish methods. If you've never been an MTI you have no idea. Things slip out, and you say things that you don't mean, and sometimes there are just instructors that think they are cool for saying it. Not saying it makes it right, but the culture at Lackland among MTI's, and its inability to grow, as well as the MTI's that have been there for a decade + beating their chests about how great they were back in the day are adding to the problem and not helping.

Drackore
03-31-2014, 05:05 PM
If she were an O...she'd be off scott free, maybe a reprimand.

wxjumper
03-31-2014, 05:12 PM
If she were an O...she'd be off scott free, maybe a reprimand.Why would an O be a drill instructor at Lackland?

Stalwart
03-31-2014, 05:22 PM
By the way, in this day and age who would ever what to be a drill instructor? You can do everything right, and then have your career and life totally fucken ruined by a single vindictive trainee.

I would hope that a TI (Drill Instructor, Drill Sergeant, or Company Commander) would only have their life ruined if the allegation was proven true and serious enough that the situation warranted it.


There is so much pressure on the instructor to get good scores in the dorm and at ceremonies that some have a difficult time attaining those scores and resort to outlandish methods. If you've never been an MTI you have no idea. Things slip out, and you say things that you don't mean, and sometimes there are just instructors that think they are cool for saying it.

I get that and the point that AB Ellis may be getting a harsher punishment than others because of the timing of her incident, a shame ... but also a situation she wouldn't find herself in had she above all else just performed her duties professionally, even if every other TI on the base was doing this kind of thing she didn't have to.

One thing I wonder, as the discussion has focused on turning civilians into Airmen, who may be on convoys, working with ground units, fighting etc. is comparing what is described and what I have experienced in some of the schools I have attended and graduated from:

USMC Boot Camp
USMC School of Infantry
Winter Mountain Leader's School
Basic Airborne
Combatant Dive
HALO
USMC Amphibious Reconnaissance School
Army Ranger
SERE & SERE 220
USN OCS (both USMC SNCO's and USN CPO's as instructors)

While the training was hard (physically and mentally), I always had professional instructors. That doesn't mean I didn't hear profanity, but some of the ... for lack of a better word ... shenanigans ... I did not experience in any of that combat oriented training. It wasn't G-rated kindergarten, but the unprofessionalism that is described [here] as a necessity for Air Force recruit training seems to be okay with so many. I don't mean this as a ding on the USAF, but is it indicative of a bigger issue that overall professionalism is on the decline and possibly in the need of calibration?

I just assumed duties as a watch captain in a 24/7 - 5 service & civilians Ops Center. I had some junior personnel come to me with a concern on the part of some of the comments from some more senior and contractor personnel. I discussed it with the people who made the comments and they admitted they said some things that were off-color but this was the way things had been with this watch team for some time. My simple reply: not any more, be professional -- if you wouldn't say it in front of the Commander don't say it on the floor. But from here on they know my expectation of them when they are on my watch team.

Chief_KO
03-31-2014, 08:04 PM
Excellent points Stalwart!!

USAF BMT is not there to turn out a mission-ready, outside the wire, terrorist killer. Figure a flight of 50 trainees, probably 10-20 different AFSCs...will the dental technician ever be OTW? probably not...as probably 40 of the 50 probably will not either.
32 years ago we handled an M-16 for a total of about 6 hours, firing a 22 caliber adapter that jammed. Today they carry an M-16 (yes, it's Robin's egg blue, and made of plastic, but it weighs the same and has all the parts (minus firing pin)) nearly the entire 8 weeks. The even fix bayonets and practice "jabbing a dummy."The Basic Expeditionary Skills Trainer (BEAST) is there to prepare the trainees to become Airmen.
The training plans, etc. work...pretty sure what she did (and the others) was not an approved instructional method.
That other training to "toughen" them up will come later at mobility school, CST, CAST, SERE, etc.

25 years to the day I graduated, I found myself TDY to Lackland (first time I had been back since BMT). I sat in my car totally impressed as I watched PT, bayonet drills, marching, etc. Truly awesome to witness.

Stalwart
03-31-2014, 10:09 PM
I see too many people that think if something doesn't directly impact them, then it isn't their problem and they don't deal with it, only to hope someone else at some point will take an interest in fixing 'it' whatever 'it' may be (bad leadership, poor performance, broken equipment etc.)

The surest way to have an unprofessional workforce is to treat them or allow them to be treated unprofessionally; one day we all leave the service and will leave behind the replacements we have either trained or failed to train to properly take our place.

Mr. Happy
03-31-2014, 11:45 PM
My TI once threatened to beat me with a "Lackland Lazer"; I've never been right since.

OtisRNeedleman
04-01-2014, 01:24 AM
You at Ft Meade?

OtisRNeedleman
04-01-2014, 01:25 AM
I would hope that a TI (Drill Instructor, Drill Sergeant, or Company Commander) would only have their life ruined if the allegation was proven true and serious enough that the situation warranted it.



I get that and the point that AB Ellis may be getting a harsher punishment than others because of the timing of her incident, a shame ... but also a situation she wouldn't find herself in had she above all else just performed her duties professionally, even if every other TI on the base was doing this kind of thing she didn't have to.

One thing I wonder, as the discussion has focused on turning civilians into Airmen, who may be on convoys, working with ground units, fighting etc. is comparing what is described and what I have experienced in some of the schools I have attended and graduated from:

USMC Boot Camp
USMC School of Infantry
Winter Mountain Leader's School
Basic Airborne
Combatant Dive
HALO
USMC Amphibious Reconnaissance School
Army Ranger
SERE & SERE 220
USN OCS (both USMC SNCO's and USN CPO's as instructors)

While the training was hard (physically and mentally), I always had professional instructors. That doesn't mean I didn't hear profanity, but some of the ... for lack of a better word ... shenanigans ... I did not experience in any of that combat oriented training. It wasn't G-rated kindergarten, but the unprofessionalism that is described [here] as a necessity for Air Force recruit training seems to be okay with so many. I don't mean this as a ding on the USAF, but is it indicative of a bigger issue that overall professionalism is on the decline and possibly in the need of calibration?

I just assumed duties as a watch captain in a 24/7 - 5 service & civilians Ops Center. I had some junior personnel come to me with a concern on the part of some of the comments from some more senior and contractor personnel. I discussed it with the people who made the comments and they admitted they said some things that were off-color but this was the way things had been with this watch team for some time. My simple reply: not any more, be professional -- if you wouldn't say it in front of the Commander don't say it on the floor. But from here on they know my expectation of them when they are on my watch team.

You at Ft Meade?

OtisRNeedleman
04-01-2014, 01:29 AM
Excellent points Stalwart!!

USAF BMT is not there to turn out a mission-ready, outside the wire, terrorist killer. Figure a flight of 50 trainees, probably 10-20 different AFSCs...will the dental technician ever be OTW? probably not...as probably 40 of the 50 probably will not either.
32 years ago we handled an M-16 for a total of about 6 hours, firing a 22 caliber adapter that jammed. Today they carry an M-16 (yes, it's Robin's egg blue, and made of plastic, but it weighs the same and has all the parts (minus firing pin)) nearly the entire 8 weeks. The even fix bayonets and practice "jabbing a dummy."The Basic Expeditionary Skills Trainer (BEAST) is there to prepare the trainees to become Airmen.
The training plans, etc. work...pretty sure what she did (and the others) was not an approved instructional method.
That other training to "toughen" them up will come later at mobility school, CST, CAST, SERE, etc.

25 years to the day I graduated, I found myself TDY to Lackland (first time I had been back since BMT). I sat in my car totally impressed as I watched PT, bayonet drills, marching, etc. Truly awesome to witness.

In 1974 we spent one day with the M-16. But we got to fire 5.56 mm ammo.

While stationed at Randolph 87-92 went back to Lackland - brother visited, took him over - and found my old WWII basic training barracks. Marked for demolition. Brought back memories.

Stalwart
04-01-2014, 01:46 AM
You at Ft Meade?

Yes

Chief_KO
04-01-2014, 02:01 AM
Yes

You have my condolences...I did two years there 06 - 08...Here are my pleasant memories:

Stalwart
04-01-2014, 02:15 AM
It isn't that bad. I am not deploying so am home for the new toddler, I get to work on a couple hobbies etc. that I have wanted to try that the last few years have not been possible. Even if I didn't like it, I would try to find a way to make lemonade out of lemons.

Drackore
04-01-2014, 10:15 AM
Why would an O be a drill instructor at Lackland?

I wasn't necessarily saying Os as TIs, you knew damn well what I was getting at.

retiredAFcivvy
04-01-2014, 05:28 PM
[QUOTE=OtisRNeedleman;671584]In 1974 we spent one day with the M-16. But we got to fire 5.56 mm ammo.

Same in 1966.

OtisRNeedleman
04-02-2014, 01:57 AM
You have my condolences...I did two years there 06 - 08...Here are my pleasant memories:

Three years there, 92-95. Luckily, was on a joint duty assignment, so they couldn't keep me there any longer. The most difficult assignment of my career, for various reasons, both personal and professional.

OtisRNeedleman
04-02-2014, 01:59 AM
It isn't that bad. I am not deploying so am home for the new toddler, I get to work on a couple hobbies etc. that I have wanted to try that the last few years have not been possible. Even if I didn't like it, I would try to find a way to make lemonade out of lemons.

Understand. Came there from Randolph, where I had a silk purse, and expected a pig's ear. Instead, I got pig shit.

Chief_KO
04-02-2014, 03:20 AM
Understand. Came there from Randolph, where I had a silk purse, and expected a pig's ear. Instead, I got pig shit.

If you ever find yourself up here in the Black Hills of SD, we need to get together for a beer!

OtisRNeedleman
04-02-2014, 07:25 PM
If you ever find yourself up here in the Black Hills of SD, we need to get together for a beer!

Thanks!

Sergeant eNYgma
04-02-2014, 09:24 PM
If it wasn't for the physical stuff (instigating the fight) and making them work out naked, I'd see no issue.

The verbal isn't a problem, in my view. This isn't like verbally abusing a child. These are adults. They should be able to handle that part.

This is where I'm at, who gives a shit if she said she'd kick your ass, send you home in a bag? The trainees come off as super weak worrying about that. However she is DEAD wrong on the stuff with the fight and the working out thing is just weird.

Class5Kayaker
04-02-2014, 09:57 PM
Then you sir are just as guilty. She was convicted of 24 counts of maltreatment.

According to AETCI36-2216 maltreatment is defined as:Maltreatment (verbal)—Any language that degrades, belittles, demeans, or slanders an individual or group based on color, national origin, race, religion, age, ethnic group, gender, or physical stature. Includes, but is not limited to, (1) the use of profanity and any insinuation of immoral, unethical, illegal, or unprofessional conduct; (2) crude, offensive language in rhymes or prose as memory devices (mnemonics); and/or (3) training tools that contain profane words, offensive language, or inappropriate sexual or gender references. Any language that establishes a hostile environment constitutes and promotes sexual harassment, or disrespect to men and/or women

Just because you didnt threaten to kill someone doesnt mean you arent guilty...you violated the law. I suggest you turn yourself in to your local SF squadron and we end your career, sound fair?

Very true, by the letter of the law (profanity) i did violate it. BUt do you honestly think my crime is worthy of getting as bad a punishment as someone who threatens to cut you up and send you home (or what ever it was she said) AND order juniors to fight one another then lie about it?

I was commenting on the first post, where it did mention she ordered 2 people to fight and lie about it after.

Actually, just swearing is not an offense of Maltreatment. You're just reading part of the definition that's convenient for your argument. You need to read the whole paragraph and the first part is the key:

"Any language that degrades, belittles, demeans, or slanders an individual or group based on color, national origin, race, religion, age, ethnic group, gender, or physical stature."

So if you swear and it's not to degrade, belittle etc. based on color, national origin, etc. then you're not guilty of Maltreatment.

Examples:

Your push-ups focking suck a$$......would not a violation per the definition you provided above.
I swear the push-ups that you female Jewish teenagers do focking suck a$$...would be a violation per the definition you provided above.

Smeghead
04-05-2014, 12:47 PM
Actually, just swearing is not an offense of Maltreatment. You're just reading part of the definition that's convenient for your argument. You need to read the whole paragraph and the first part is the key:

"Any language that degrades, belittles, demeans, or slanders an individual or group based on color, national origin, race, religion, age, ethnic group, gender, or physical stature."

So if you swear and it's not to degrade, belittle etc. based on color, national origin, etc. then you're not guilty of Maltreatment.

Examples:

Your push-ups focking suck a$$......would not a violation per the definition you provided above.
I swear the push-ups that you female Jewish teenagers do focking suck a$$...would be a violation per the definition you provided above.

Come to Lackland as an MTI and see how that argument works out for you. I'm not disagreeing with you, I argued that distinction all the time: "your bed looks like shit" vs "you are a piece of shit." But these days--trainees win, you lose.

Rainmaker
04-05-2014, 02:07 PM
You at Ft Meade?

of course he is. why else would someone of his credentials be here? he's obviously spying on us MTF patriots.

Rainmaker
04-05-2014, 02:21 PM
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. (theme song from Baretta, as sung by Sammy Davis Jr.)

I went through BMT in 1982, and nothing close to this ever happened. Even back then TIs were instructed not to curse (yes some did slip, but never a tirade). There were TIs that were jerks (our first one and the one that ran the PT pad), but the rest were good and educated us, not intimidated or led by fear.

Since this is so widespread, I seriously hope there was some root cause analysis conducted to try to find a common reason...did all these TIs enter the blue hat world around the same time? did they all attend school at the same or near same time? did they share a common TI instructor at school? did they share a common sit-behind TI? did they all socialize together, be in the same social circle (clique)...I find it hard to believe there is not some common thread or threads...

OH WHY GOD WHY did they do it? Big Blue will spend $70 Million dollars and 3 years, hire 200 companies to conduct studies, make videos and hold classes, set up crisis hotlines and give a million reasons at congressional hearings and still won't figure it out. But, Rainmaker gonna give you the root cause in one sentence. Here goes.... THEY WERE HORNY AND THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH IT!!!!!
simple.. Now, for the hard question that no one will ask...How could some deviant pervert like Annamaria Ellis ever get selected to be put in a position to get her jollies off watching teenager's fight naked in the barracks in the first place? Just like an ugly Canker sore in the Herpes virus, these shit birds all around us (like Annamaria) are just a symptom of the underlying disease and not the virus itself.

With a few exceptions (read SOF). Professionalism in the Military has gone the way of the dodo bird. PC multiculturalism (under the guise of tolerance and fairness) has allowed the ghetto and hookup cultures to infect and destroy the professionalism of the military. There is virtually no standards enforcement. This TI witch hunt may continue. But, things won't improve because it's all for show. We have a crisis of Leadership in every institution in society right now. FISH STINK FROM THE HEAD.

Rainmaker
04-05-2014, 03:16 PM
This is where I'm at, who gives a shit if she said she'd kick your ass, send you home in a bag? The trainees come off as super weak worrying about that. However she is DEAD wrong on the stuff with the fight and the working out thing is just weird.

NomSayin? what 18 year old male would be afraid of this little B!#tch actually physically harming him? Now, Rainmaker gotta pretty fair size rod, but he don't see no Gideon fitting up his pee hole (no matter how hard Annamaria tried) This whole thing would be a joke if it wasn't so pathetic. and for the record. Rainmaker think AB Ellis should've been quickly made Ms. Ellis and not put in jail..talk about overkill.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-05-2014, 03:16 PM
OH WHY GOD WHY did they do it? Big Blue will spend $70 Million dollars and 3 years,hire 200 companies to conduct studies, make videos and hold classes and give a million reasons at congressional hearings and still won't figure it out. But, Rainmaker gonna give you the root cause in one sentence. Here goes.... THEY WERE HORNY AND THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH IT!!!!! simple.. Now, for the hard question that no one will ask...How could some deviant pervert like Annamaria Ellis ever get put in a position to get her jollies off watching teenager's fight naked in the barracks in the first place? Just like an ugly Canker sore in the Herpes virus, these shit birds all around us (like Annamaria) are just a symptom of the underlying disease and not the virus itself. With a few exceptions (read SOF). Professionalism in the Military has gone the way of the dodo bird. PC multiculturalism (under the guise of tolerance and fairness) has allowed the ghetto and hookup cultures to infect and destroy the professionalism of the military. There is virtually no standards enforcement. This TI witch hunt will continue. But, things won't improve because it's all for show. We have a crisis of Leadership in every institution in society right now. FISH STINK FROM THE HEAD. NomSayin?

You just contradicted yourself about three or four times.

We are a far more professional force than we were 20 years ago and society at large is changing for the better.

Rainmaker
04-05-2014, 03:48 PM
You just contradicted yourself about three or four times.

We are a far more professional force than we were 20 years ago and society at large is changing for the better.

well Rainmaker do have multiple voices in his head. The purple drank is strong!!. NomSayin?

And no way are we a more professional force. Did you forget SAC? Desert Storm? just take a look at the grab-assing going on at your local gate next time you go through it. Look at the NCOs (standards enforcer's) that can't shave or put their uniform on right, I've actually seen them sitting in the shack on cell phones texting when you pull up. Now, compare that to the elite gate guards of 25 years ago with spit shined jump boots, white gloves and ascots and a cool TAC brown sign that told you their hometown. when's last time you saw a really sharp salute given?

Society on whole has gone to shit. Today's avg. 20 something are spoiled Millennials raised by stoner Baby boomers or worse a hood rat with no impulse control that was not raised at all. Most of These fuck sticks don't truly comprehend the difference between "earning respect" through the Protestant Work Ethic and demonstrated Excellence and "gettin they Respeck" through whining/crying/threats/violence etc.. If it's not PC They've never been taught it. It'll take a generation to unfuck this and it won't begin until we demand it.

BOSS302
04-06-2014, 11:30 AM
well Rainmaker do have multiple voices in his head. The purple drank is strong!!. NomSayin?

And no way are we a more professional force. Did you forget SAC? Desert Storm? just take a look at the grab-assing going on at your local gate next time you go through it. Look at the NCOs (standards enforcer's) that can't shave or put their uniform on right, I've actually seen them sitting in the shack on cell phones texting when you pull up. Now, compare that to the elite gate guards of 25 years ago with spit shined jump boots, white gloves and ascots and a cool TAC brown sign that told you their hometown. when's last time you saw a really sharp salute given?

Society on whole has gone to shit. Today's avg. 20 something are spoiled Millennials raised by stoner Baby boomers or worse a hood rat with no impulse control that was not raised at all. Most of These fuck sticks don't truly comprehend the difference between "earning respect" through the Protestant Work Ethic and demonstrated Excellence and "gettin they Respeck" through whining/crying/threats/violence etc.. If it's not PC They've never been taught it. It'll take a generation to unfuck this and it won't begin until we demand it.

It won't take just a generation. It'll take a massive event of some sort to shake society from its comfort zone: a world war, a great economic depression, prolonged and severe civil unrest, etc.

OtisRNeedleman
04-06-2014, 11:13 PM
It won't take just a generation. It'll take a massive event of some sort to shake society from its comfort zone: a world war, a great economic depression, prolonged and severe civil unrest, etc.

Sad to say I believe you are correct.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-06-2014, 11:49 PM
well Rainmaker do have multiple voices in his head. The purple drank is strong!!. NomSayin?

And no way are we a more professional force. Did you forget SAC? Desert Storm? just take a look at the grab-assing going on at your local gate next time you go through it. Look at the NCOs (standards enforcer's) that can't shave or put their uniform on right, I've actually seen them sitting in the shack on cell phones texting when you pull up. Now, compare that to the elite gate guards of 25 years ago with spit shined jump boots, white gloves and ascots and a cool TAC brown sign that told you their hometown. when's last time you saw a really sharp salute given?

Society on whole has gone to shit. Today's avg. 20 something are spoiled Millennials raised by stoner Baby boomers or worse a hood rat with no impulse control that was not raised at all. Most of These fuck sticks don't truly comprehend the difference between "earning respect" through the Protestant Work Ethic and demonstrated Excellence and "gettin they Respeck" through whining/crying/threats/violence etc.. If it's not PC They've never been taught it. It'll take a generation to unfuck this and it won't begin until we demand it.

Every generation, old men whine about the younger generation not being capable of carrying on. Guess what? Old men die and society keeps going on without them just fine.

sandsjames
04-07-2014, 12:32 AM
Every generation, old men whine about the younger generation not being capable of carrying on. Guess what? Old men die and society keeps going on without them just fine.

Absolutely...the new generation is just fine. There's nothing wrong with the world. Great point!

Rainmaker
04-07-2014, 09:53 PM
Every generation, old men whine about the younger generation not being capable of carrying on. Guess what? Old men die and society keeps going on without them just fine.


Protestant Ethic: - an ethic that stresses the virtue of hard work, thrift, and self-discipline.

What has been will be again and what has been done will be done again and there is nothing new under the sun.

Erry society waxes and wanes. Call it ol' man whining if you will. Rainmaker just don't wanna be around when it happen next time. NomSayin?