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Capt Alfredo
03-28-2014, 01:25 AM
Strange there's no posting here on the massive blood-letting that went down at Malmstrom today...and Warren, too. Tak must be rolling over in his grave. If he were dead.

John Jameson
03-28-2014, 01:48 AM
I just bumped the nuc thread.

Drackore
03-28-2014, 06:54 AM
Meh....the higher up O's will retire because "we can't hurt their families". The lower O's will either retrain in or into a new career field. Maybe a Lt or two will be thrown to the civilian world in a lame attempt to show they are taking this serious, but I doubt even that.

If it were E's...well, you know how that would work out. Jail time, bumped to E1 and kicked out...DoD doesn't care about "hurting families" of the enlisted.

Kicker47
03-28-2014, 02:30 PM
Just an FYI...The term "Black Thursday" in the Nuc Enterprise is generally used to refer to the Minot/Barksdale B-52 incident of 2007. :geek:

BRUWIN
03-28-2014, 04:55 PM
Just an FYI...The term "Black Thursday" in the Nuc Enterprise is generally used to refer to the Minot/Barksdale B-52 incident of 2007. :geek:

I had a friend at Barksdale the day that airplane landed and he heard the crew chiefs were playing "kick the can" with one of the warheads after doing their postflight. I am not one to start rumors but that's just what I heard. He also said...ironically...that tater tots were being served in the DFAC that day.

BOSS302
03-28-2014, 05:49 PM
I had a friend at Barksdale the day that airplane landed and he heard the crew chiefs were playing "kick the can" with one of the warheads after doing their postflight. I am not one to start rumors but that's just what I heard. He also said...ironically...that tater tots were being served in the DFAC that day.

You are the worst at starting rumors.

SomeRandomGuy
03-28-2014, 05:59 PM
I had a friend at Barksdale the day that airplane landed and he heard the crew chiefs were playing "kick the can" with one of the warheads after doing their postflight. I am not one to start rumors but that's just what I heard. He also said...ironically...that tater tots were being served in the DFAC that day.

That's relatively close to what I heard. Prior to the incident, tator tots were being served to missileers cold. To send a message, they decided to play a real life game of "hot potatoe" using a nuke. They volley'd the nuke over to Barksdale but apparantly the missileers at Barksdale didn't want to play.

In finance we used to play a similar game with hotheaded customers. We would bounce them back and forth between finance and MPF until they exploded at one location or the other. To this day MPF has not been able to beat me at that game though they try quite often.

LogDog
03-28-2014, 06:56 PM
I think each of those officers fired and the officers who were cheating should be forced to face a board and explain how their actions reflect the Air Force core values of: Integrity First; Service Before Self; and Excellence in All We Do.

OtisRNeedleman
03-28-2014, 08:51 PM
Wonder if the firings went high enough. Nice to see new commanders coming in, but only if they have a mandate to radically improve the culture. Cosmetic changes will be counterproductive to the nuclear mission. It's a MISSION, not an "enterprise".

Chief_KO
03-28-2014, 08:58 PM
From AF.mil
WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- In a press briefing at the Pentagon March 27, Air Force officials announced the findings from the Malmstrom Air Force Base, Mont., test compromise investigations, to include accountability actions and a way forward for the ICBM force.

In January, Secretary of the Air Force Deborah Lee James and Air Force Global Strike Command commander Lt. Gen. Stephen Wilson announced a cheating incident involving 92 crew members at Malmstrom AFB. Wilson then launched a commander directed investigation and force improvement program to get to the bottom of the situation and to recommend needed improvements. Additionally, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel ordered the service to provide him a comprehensive plan to address the morale and ethics issues within 60 days.
James led with what the CDI initially confirmed, “we do have systemic issues in our missile community,” highlighting that the CDI and FIP have a number of recommendations to address not only the climate within the nuclear community, but also to ensure Airmen recognize importance of the nuclear mission to national security. She also addressed the topic of most interest -- accountability -- with 79 officers and 10 leaders receiving punishment in some form.
“Nine officers in leadership positions at Malmstrom (AFB) were recommended for removal," James said. "One officer submitted his resignation and will retire. None of these leaders were directly involved in a test compromise, but the commander directed investigation indicated that they failed to provide adequate oversight of their crew force.” “This indeed was a major failure in integrity,” she said, speaking of the group of missile officers who had some type of involvement in the test compromise. “Our Air Force core values, which are ‘Integrity First, Service Before Self, and Excellence In All We Do’, -- have to guide us in everything we do -- on and off duty; at home, in the office and on the battlefield,” James said. “Integrity means taking action when you see something in your environment that’s not right -- in your unit, among your peers, (with) your subordinates and your superiors.”
To reemphasize the importance of core values and provide resources to commanders and senior non-commissioned officers, key plan components include a stand-down Wingman Day, evaluation of current curriculum at formal education and training venues and a launch of a core values resource center on the Air Force Portal, James reported.
Wilson said leaders launched a FIP that provides recommendations in four general areas: reforming organizational culture, empowering crew commanders, improving the quality and purpose of training; and reforming testing and evaluation. “We are using this test compromise as an opportunity to make significant and important improvements across the enterprise,” Wilson said. “The Force Improvement Program’s purpose is to create an aggressive, action-oriented, field-influenced program with the goal of making substantial and lasting changes to the ICBM mission.”
The FIP, Wilson explained, included a diverse 69-person working group comprised of Airmen from operations, maintenance, security forces, mission support and helicopter career fields and even Navy submariners and global strike bomber crews. The program launched in February on the heels of the CDI, led by Lt. Gen. Mike Holmes, Air Education and Training Command vice commander.
“Based on the CDI, we can say that, across the 20th Air Force, leadership’s focus on perfection led commanders to micromanage their people,” Wilson noted. “They sought to ensure the zero-defect standard was met by personally monitoring and directing daily operations, imposing unrelenting testing and inspections -- with the goal of eliminating all human error.”
To begin to change the culture, we will place greater emphasis on 1) how we train and 2) field evaluations that better assess crew performance in the operational environment, Wilson reported. “This will allow us to deemphasize the significance of scoring 100 percent on classroom tests while ensuring our crew force remains ready to perform the mission.”
James reported in fiscal 2014 the Air Force earmarked $19 million for the FIP including launch control center refurbishment and infrastructure repairs. The 20th Air Force also identified an additional $3 million for quality-of-life requirements.
Similarly, the fiscal 2015 budget request, James reported, includes $455 million to the sustain the Air Force’s Minuteman squadrons, intercontinental ballistic missile helicopter support and critical communications, with another $154 million for readiness, training and launch control improvements. “As we execute our funding in 2014 we’re going to seek to rearrange as much as possible to fund these important programs -- in other words we’re not going to wait; we’re going to move forward,” she said. Still, James said the Air Force nuclear deterrence mission is not only critical to national security, but remains strong.
“Overall, I continue to have great confidence in this mission and the way it is being performed,” James said. “For over 50 years our nuclear professionals have faithfully stood watch over America. This issues we have before us is tough (and) while we have made progress in recent years, there is more work to be done.”

I bolded the things that made me chuckle.

BRUWIN
03-28-2014, 09:02 PM
I think each of those officers fired and the officers who were cheating should be forced to face a board and explain how their actions reflect the Air Force core values of: Integrity First; Service Before Self; and Excellence in All We Do.

It's funny...those Core Values came about in the mid 90's under the direction of CSAF Gen Fogleman. At that time we just had the Blackhawk shot down over Iraq by an F-15C from Bitburg, nobody got in trouble, pilots got off scott free and they tried to blame an AWACs officer who was later made the scapegoat and court martialed...but found innocent. Several other incidents occurred that involved officers and Fogleman...who I thought was a very good CSAF...came up with core values to remind folks what we are all about. Yet here we are almost 20 years later and we still haven't lived up to them.

I think the core values were a great addition. However, many treat them as just something else to memorize. They aren't a stupid creed...they really need to give core values much more visibility and attention for folks coming in. They apply to everything...not just a military career.

BRUWIN
03-28-2014, 09:09 PM
From AF.mil
James reported in fiscal 2014 the Air Force earmarked $19 million for the FIP including launch control center refurbishment and infrastructure repairs. The 20th Air Force also identified an additional $3 million for quality-of-life requirements.

I bolded the things that made me chuckle.

LOL...only in the Air Force does one get rewarded for being a fuck up. They were talking about misileer pay incentives a couple months back.

Chief_KO
03-28-2014, 09:47 PM
LOL...only in the government does one get rewarded for being a fuck up. They were talking about misileer pay incentives a couple months back.

Fixed it for you

fufu
03-29-2014, 12:27 AM
I bolded the things that made me chuckle.

Wingman day is the answer to everything!! How can our "leadership" be this dumb?

Gonzo432
03-29-2014, 12:47 AM
If they were really serious about fixing the problem it would be two Wingman Days and a "Core Values Resource Center of Excellence".

jetteraf
03-29-2014, 01:24 AM
Leadership has no clue about how to improve the missile culture. The best thing for missiles was when it was attached to space, and there was hope to get out and do a cool job after you put your time in. Now a 13N career is like a 20 year prison sentence. Who wants to spend half their life PCSing to Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska and North Dakota (maybe 3 or 4 years in California or Colorado if you're lucky)?

SomeRandomGuy
03-29-2014, 02:13 AM
If they were really serious about fixing the problem it would be two Wingman Days and a "Core Values Resource Center of Excellence".

You are on to something here. You must be in AETC right now. We seem to be the only command that gets it. If they would just merge AFGSC into AETC we could have this fixed by next week.

OtisRNeedleman
03-29-2014, 02:18 AM
Wingman day is the answer to everything!! How can our "leadership" be this dumb?

The "leadership" has had many years to get this dumb, starting with management-by-fad (TQM), political correctness, social experimentation, and rampant careerism.

The "leadership" needs to drop all this stupid shit, such as "resiliency" and "wingman days", and just go back to treating every airman like an adult and a professional and stop treating airmen like errant children.

The Adult Air Force (AAF) wasn't perfect but it seemed to work better than today's micro-managed, over-stressed, politically correct AF.

Gonzo432
03-29-2014, 02:53 AM
You are on to something here. You must be in AETC right now. We seem to be the only command that gets it. If they would just merge AFGSC into AETC we could have this fixed by next week.

Thankfully I've been a blue-ID type for nearly 7 years. I retired before this Wingman Day-BS caught on.

wxjumper
03-29-2014, 04:08 AM
"Core Values Resource Center on the Air Force Portal"

:lol you can't make this stuff up.

Chief_KO
03-29-2014, 12:15 PM
Like Bruwin, I too think Gen Fogleman was the best CSAF I served under. He had "it" (what ever "it" is), earning the respect of Enlisted Airmen.

I remember when he took over 7AF at Osan, change of command on a Saturday. On Monday he relieved the Wing/CC, CD and flying squadron CCs after failing an ORI and follow on ORE...(memory may be slightly off, this was 1990). What could have been a major downer and created a prison like atmosphere (which came later under Doc), it was the exact opposite.

One more Fogleman story: Scott AFB, he was 4-star Transcom CC. Heard about a MSgt w/terminal cancer, folks were gonna go to the MSgt's home and convert patio into a sunroom so he can relax and enjoy his remaining months in peace. Gen Fogleman passed along that he would be there over the weekend to help, with the following conditions: 1) No cameras, 2) No news article, 3) He was there to work, not hold a paint brush and look pretty, 4) He was not in charge, whoever is will put him to work where needed. He worked all day Saturday & all day Sunday till the project was done.

If we could change 1 thing over the last 30 years in the USAF, my vote (and the vote of millions) would be not selecting Gen McPonytail as CSAF. With that one change, I am pretty confident we would be at an entirely different position than we find ourselves at today.

Mr. Happy
03-29-2014, 01:16 PM
Like Bruwin, I too think Gen Fogleman was the best CSAF I served under. He had "it" (what ever "it" is), earning the respect of Enlisted Airmen.

I remember when he took over 7AF at Osan, change of command on a Saturday. On Monday he relieved the Wing/CC, CD and flying squadron CCs after failing an ORI and follow on ORE...(memory may be slightly off, this was 1990). What could have been a major downer and created a prison like atmosphere (which came later under Doc), it was the exact opposite.

One more Fogleman story: Scott AFB, he was 4-star Transcom CC. Heard about a MSgt w/terminal cancer, folks were gonna go to the MSgt's home and convert patio into a sunroom so he can relax and enjoy his remaining months in peace. Gen Fogleman passed along that he would be there over the weekend to help, with the following conditions: 1) No cameras, 2) No news article, 3) He was there to work, not hold a paint brush and look pretty, 4) He was not in charge, whoever is will put him to work where needed. He worked all day Saturday & all day Sunday till the project was done.

If we could change 1 thing over the last 30 years in the USAF, my vote (and the vote of millions) would be not selecting Gen McPonytail as CSAF. With that one change, I am pretty confident we would be at an entirely different position than we find ourselves at today.

General Fogleman visited a shop I was TDY to at Aviano in the mid-90s, and his presence commanded respect! By far my favorite CSAF during my 24 years.

Mr. Happy
03-29-2014, 01:21 PM
Leadership has no clue about how to improve the missile culture. The best thing for missiles was when it was attached to space, and there was hope to get out and do a cool job after you put your time in. Now a 13N career is like a 20 year prison sentence. Who wants to spend half their life PCSing to Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska and North Dakota (maybe 3 or 4 years in California or Colorado if you're lucky)?

By no means do I know the first thing about the missile career-field, but I've often wondered if that career-field should be a 4 year special duty for officers for the reasons you stated. Maybe continuously turning over personnel would prevent the burn out and keep fresh leadership in place. Again, I have no idea if that's possible or not since I do not know how technical this field is.

DWWSWWD
03-29-2014, 03:48 PM
By no means do I know the first thing about the missile career-field, but I've often wondered if that career-field should be a 4 year special duty for officers for the reasons you stated. Maybe continuously turning over personnel would prevent the burn out and keep fresh leadership in place. Again, I have no idea if that's possible or not since I do not know how technical this field is. That's not a bad idea. When I worked in the capsules I remember all of the folks being 0-3 and below so it can't be so hard that it would take years to figure out.

BRUWIN
03-29-2014, 06:00 PM
"Core Values Resource Center on the Air Force Portal"

:lol you can't make this stuff up.

Don't laugh at it...the site already got one hit.

BRUWIN
03-29-2014, 06:05 PM
By no means do I know the first thing about the missile career-field, but I've often wondered if that career-field should be a 4 year special duty for officers for the reasons you stated. Maybe continuously turning over personnel would prevent the burn out and keep fresh leadership in place. Again, I have no idea if that's possible or not since I do not know how technical this field is.

How hard can it be? You turn a damn key at the same time the guy next to you does and if he refuses you point a gun to his head until he does. The tests are obviously hard but other than that there can't be much to it.

OtisRNeedleman
03-30-2014, 12:38 AM
General Fogleman visited a shop I was TDY to at Aviano in the mid-90s, and his presence commanded respect! By far my favorite CSAF during my 24 years.


My favorite CSAF, as well. A BADLY needed breath of fresh air after The Ponytail.

OtisRNeedleman
03-30-2014, 12:39 AM
How hard can it be? You turn a damn key at the same time the guy next to you does and if he refuses you point a gun to his head until he does. The tests are obviously hard but other than that there can't be much to it.
Heck, even YOU could do it. :)

Gonzo432
03-30-2014, 01:09 AM
General Fogleman visited a shop I was TDY to at Aviano in the mid-90s, and his presence commanded respect! By far my favorite CSAF during my 24 years.

Gen Fogleman came to Keflavik in 1996. There was definitely something about the man that would make you follow him. I remember thinking, "Now that's a General." I met E9AF Benken that day too, I thought he was an a$$hole. General Fogleman was very impressive.

BRUWIN
03-30-2014, 04:37 AM
Heck, even YOU could do it. :)

Maybe...but I spend a good part of my day looking for my keys so I might be running around last minute trying to find it. This is my first deployment ever where I haven't lost my room key...but I live in a tent.

BRUWIN
03-30-2014, 04:40 AM
Like Bruwin, I too think Gen Fogleman was the best CSAF I served under. He had "it" (what ever "it" is), earning the respect of Enlisted Airmen.

I remember when he took over 7AF at Osan, change of command on a Saturday. On Monday he relieved the Wing/CC, CD and flying squadron CCs after failing an ORI and follow on ORE...(memory may be slightly off, this was 1990). What could have been a major downer and created a prison like atmosphere (which came later under Doc), it was the exact opposite.

One more Fogleman story: Scott AFB, he was 4-star Transcom CC. Heard about a MSgt w/terminal cancer, folks were gonna go to the MSgt's home and convert patio into a sunroom so he can relax and enjoy his remaining months in peace. Gen Fogleman passed along that he would be there over the weekend to help, with the following conditions: 1) No cameras, 2) No news article, 3) He was there to work, not hold a paint brush and look pretty, 4) He was not in charge, whoever is will put him to work where needed. He worked all day Saturday & all day Sunday till the project was done.

If we could change 1 thing over the last 30 years in the USAF, my vote (and the vote of millions) would be not selecting Gen McPonytail as CSAF. With that one change, I am pretty confident we would be at an entirely different position than we find ourselves at today.

I remember Fogleman would not wear McPeak's new Blues uniform. He absolutely refused and wore the traditional blues until the day he retired.

retiredAFcivvy
03-30-2014, 05:23 AM
I think each of those officers fired and the officers who were cheating should be forced to face a board and explain how their actions reflect the Air Force core values of: Integrity First; Service Before Self; and Excellence in All We Do.

And be given a copy of the Wing Commander's resignation letter.

OtisRNeedleman
03-30-2014, 06:07 AM
I remember Fogleman would not wear McPeak's new Blues uniform. He absolutely refused and wore the traditional blues until the day he retired.

Same here. Saw a few who did. They looked like airline pilots, not Air Force officers. No, thanks.

Chief_KO
03-30-2014, 01:45 PM
By no means do I know the first thing about the missile career-field, but I've often wondered if that career-field should be a 4 year special duty for officers for the reasons you stated. Maybe continuously turning over personnel would prevent the burn out and keep fresh leadership in place. Again, I have no idea if that's possible or not since I do not know how technical this field is.

I think this idea has merit...but this would be a major paradigm (sorry for using that word) shift to the O corps. Even 30 years ago when SrA_KO was pursuing the commissioned officer world, the misileer was not the desired career field. When I talked career choices (O vs E) with my commander (B-52 radar navigator), he was honest and upfront regarding that world. How many jobs are there in the entire world that you honestly never want to do for real? Other than a nuclear launch officer I can't think of a single one. During the Cold War there was glamour, prestige to the duty (you were on the front line, US vs USSR, etc.), well that all ended 23 years ago.
Being in Space Command was not the solution, all of the prior SAC misileers I knew that were then in AFSPC said that was a disaster. The misileer was always second (or even third class) to the space geek. The screwing of that world has been going on for decades...the unscrewing will unfortunately take almost as long.

Back to your original idea, I like it; but I doubt it will ever happen.

Chief_KO
03-30-2014, 01:51 PM
Same here. Saw a few who did. They looked like airline pilots, not Air Force officers. No, thanks.

For the life of me, I seriously cannot remember a single person (O or E) that liked that uniform over the previous one.
When I went to NCOA in 1996 there was a handful still wearing the old service dress, but I was the only one still rocking the "silver stripes."

BENDER56
03-30-2014, 05:52 PM
For the life of me, I seriously cannot remember a single person (O or E) that liked that uniform over the previous one.
When I went to NCOA in 1996 there was a handful still wearing the old service dress, but I was the only one still rocking the "silver stripes."

I preferred the McConnell service dress over both the McPeak disaster and the new service dress. It just looked more military.

But, I think I'm one of very few who liked the Velcro name patch for the BDUs. No outlays for chevrons, name/USAF tapes, badges and squadron patches -- just get those Velcro patches sewn on your blouses and field jacket, and order two name patches and you were good to go. Heck, if you wanted, you could get away with only ordering one name patch and just rip it off your shirt and put on your field jacket as needed -- but I think the minimum order was two.

Rumor was it ended due to the Chiefs' institutional devotion to Big Honkin' Chevrons.

Chief_KO
03-30-2014, 08:31 PM
Ah yes, the ASNP (aircrew style name patch). While this was a valid concept, USAF continued to drive a wedge between the leather jacket crowd and us lowlifes.

Unlike the a/c who sport different colors (each mean something) along with their cool nickname (I refuse to refer to it as a "Call Sign" which it is not), us unwashed were limited to Rank, Name (Last, First, MI) and specialty badge. All printed on a "leatherette" patch that would quickly wear off if you wore web gear, or would catch on your web gear and come flying off. I remember wearing one back in 89 -90...

Not to mention "open season" on uniform theft since there was no longer a name/rank sewn on the shirt.

Yes, I too heard the legend that some Chief was called "Hey Man" one time (probably some truth to that), but it sucked having to squint to see who you were talking to.

Great opportunity for AF to tell the suggestor: "Great idea, but in keeping with our heritage & tradition dating back to 1947, utility uniforms will continue with name tapes and ranks sewn onto the sleeves (enlisted) and collars (officers). We can be our own worse enemy at times...Airmen complained about the cost & "hassle" of MAJCOM & Unit patches...poof gone! (except again for the zipper suited upper echelon).
But as long as everyone can wear colored t-shirts (self-purchased) on Fridays!......

BOSS302
03-31-2014, 08:56 AM
But as long as everyone can wear colored t-shirts (self-purchased) on Fridays!......

And to add to that...some squadrons - mine included! - have decided that our squadron color t-shirt shall be....

*drum roll*

SAND COLOR.

Yes. For "morale shirt Fridays" some must contend with wearing the standard ABU undershirt.

(Edit): I don't give a BRUWIN about the t-shirts. However, the idea of a squadron CC telling his/her people that "Our morale shirt will be sand colored ABU undershirts" just comes off as a giant "Go to hell, peasants."

Kicker47
03-31-2014, 01:40 PM
From AF.mil
James reported in fiscal 2014 the Air Force earmarked $19 million for the FIP including launch control center refurbishment and infrastructure repairs.

Nothing raises morale like adding more TCTOs to an already overloaded schedule! :no: