PDA

View Full Version : Interesting blog regarding Air Force Climate



imported_AFKILO7
03-09-2014, 01:56 PM
What was interesting to me was who wrote it.

http://www.pickyourbattles.net/2014/03/is-air-force-dam-about-to-burst.html

mikezulu1
03-09-2014, 03:26 PM
spot on assessment if you ask me

Drackore
03-09-2014, 03:44 PM
Even a blind squirrel...

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
03-09-2014, 04:12 PM
PYB was posting on his blog long before his short stint on the AFT forums.

OtisRNeedleman
03-09-2014, 04:51 PM
How very true. However, if the guy blogging is the same guy who used to be here, from reading the blog post he doesn't sound paranoid at all, unlike the impression I had from reading his stuff on this forum. The blog post is very well put, indeed.

sandsjames
03-09-2014, 06:57 PM
How very true. However, if the guy blogging is the same guy who used to be here, from reading the blog post he doesn't sound paranoid at all, unlike the impression I had from reading his stuff on this forum. The blog post is very well put, indeed.

It's definitely him. Most of his blogs are pretty good. There are a couple that hint at the paranoia, if you reed through them all.

imported_AFKILO7
03-09-2014, 07:01 PM
I agree his assessment seems to be spot on. I am also of the opinion that people may, at times, lose sight of their true identity when posting online in forums such as this one. There are some of us on here that may be cool as the other side of the pillow in real life, however, online their only goal is to troll. I think that each person has an alternate personality to an extent, and these personalities interact with others in ways we wouldn't normally interact. Initially PYB wasn't difficult to get along with, however, over time his personality manifested into something else entirely. I actually try to NOT interact very much on the forums for this reason alone. All of you have given me quite a bit of material to discuss in my psychology classes.

BRUWIN
03-09-2014, 07:36 PM
I agree his assessment seems to be spot on. I am also of the opinion that people may, at times, lose sight of their true identity when posting online in forums such as this one. There are some of us on here that may be cool as the other side of the pillow in real life, however, online their only goal is to troll. I think that each person has an alternate personality to an extent, and these personalities interact with others in ways we wouldn't normally interact. Initially PYB wasn't difficult to get along with, however, over time his personality manifested into something else entirely. I actually try to NOT interact very much on the forums for this reason alone. All of you have given me quite a bit of material to discuss in my psychology classes.

PYB is a very unpopular dude with the flyboys. He did a Air War College paper on Pilot culture and has been despised in the community ever since. It was a pretty spot on paper too...which was pretty amazing considering he is one of them.

sandsjames
03-09-2014, 09:07 PM
PYB is a very unpopular dude with the flyboys. He did a Air War College paper on Pilot culture and has been despised in the community ever since. It was a pretty spot on paper too...which was pretty amazing considering he is one of them.

Kind of like a magician who gives away the tricks of the trade.

TomTom093
03-09-2014, 10:23 PM
PYB is a very unpopular dude with the flyboys. He did a Air War College paper on Pilot culture and has been despised in the community ever since. It was a pretty spot on paper too...which was pretty amazing considering he is one of them.

Do you happen to have a link to the paper?

OtisRNeedleman
03-09-2014, 10:40 PM
PYB is a very unpopular dude with the flyboys. He did a Air War College paper on Pilot culture and has been despised in the community ever since. It was a pretty spot on paper too...which was pretty amazing considering he is one of them. Just finished reading the paper. Very interesting. Recommend it to anyone.

imported_AFKILO7
03-10-2014, 02:22 AM
Just finished reading the paper. Very interesting. Recommend it to anyone.

Where did you find it?

TWilliams
03-10-2014, 03:35 AM
Where did you find it?

There is a link on his blog. It will take you to his paper here:
http://www.wantscheck.org/smartestguys.pdf

wxjumper
03-10-2014, 11:31 AM
If you read down a couple posts on the blog it looks like he got in a huge internet fight with another pilot called "Butters" :lol who exposed his real identity on the Baseops forum

socal1200r
03-10-2014, 12:24 PM
With the SECAF's stated priorities being the next-gen tanker, next-gen bomber, and F-35, and in this zero-sum budget environment, it's no wonder the continuing costs of these weapon platforms are being balanced on the backs of the force. Several documents have posted that our "most likely" adversaries in future conflicts are not going to be ones that would require us to have a next-gen tanker, bomber, or F-35, but rather more ISR platforms, and aircraft like the A-10, AC-130, etc. But these legacy systems aren't as Gucci as a new tanker, bomber, or F-35, so in a zero-sum environment, they win, and manpower loses. And we don't really need a new combat rescue helicopter either, I'm pretty sure they could make something like an MC-47 Chinook work just fine. Instead of creating a budget to meet our OTE requirements in support of the National Military Strategy, we're doing it the other way around. The players in the puzzle palace seem to be confusing the "nice to have" with the "must haves", and these are the repurcussions of their decisions and "guidance".

DWWSWWD
03-10-2014, 12:46 PM
huh. Interesting enough. Was that the guy with the bulletproof car that got into a pissing contest with someone about it? As much as we bitch and complain, we don't have much tolerance for end-of-the-world type folks around here. The people that were always down about everything seem to move on when their pessimism doesn't get fed properly.

Gonzo432
03-10-2014, 01:01 PM
I made it through most of it last night. The guy on that blog and the PYB who was here are the same guy, but he seemed a bit more unhinged here. Compares the traits that crashed Enron with the traits of the fighter pilot culture; can't imagine why that would upset a few folks.

OtisRNeedleman
03-10-2014, 01:25 PM
This has his real name, as "appellant".


http://www.pickyourbattles.net/2014/03/the-texas-civil-rights-project-tcrp.html

BRUWIN
03-10-2014, 02:28 PM
huh. Interesting enough. Was that the guy with the bulletproof car that got into a pissing contest with someone about it?

Yeah...PYB was the guy with the bulletproff car, which I found fascinating in itself.

OtisRNeedleman
03-10-2014, 03:10 PM
Yeah...PYB was the guy with the bulletproff car, which I found fascinating in itself.

It was just amazing. Totally beyond me why an average person in the USA needs a bulletproof car.

efmbman
03-10-2014, 04:12 PM
It was just amazing. Totally beyond me why an average person in the USA needs a bulletproof car.

I admit I thought about that, too. I came to the conclusion that he felt strongly enough about it that he would spend the money to make it happen. He has always been a strong proponent of the written word of the Constitution.

There are people out there that believe the end of society as we know it approaching. I've ran into a few of these folks in (of all places) Connecticut. The numbers here have grown since the implentation of the new firearms laws here. 9 times out of 10, the first argument made is that registration of firearms is the required first step toward confiscation of firearms.

I'm not saying I agree with that assessment, but it is a sub-culture out there. Having a bulletproof car now does not seem like something the average person needs. That thought may change if TEOTWAWKI happens.

CYBERFX1024
03-10-2014, 06:37 PM
I admit I thought about that, too. I came to the conclusion that he felt strongly enough about it that he would spend the money to make it happen. He has always been a strong proponent of the written word of the Constitution.
There are people out there that believe the end of society as we know it approaching. I've ran into a few of these folks in (of all places) Connecticut. The numbers here have grown since the implentation of the new firearms laws here. 9 times out of 10, the first argument made is that registration of firearms is the required first step toward confiscation of firearms.
I'm not saying I agree with that assessment, but it is a sub-culture out there. Having a bulletproof car now does not seem like something the average person needs. That thought may change if TEOTWAWKI happens.

I am not a big fan of the TEOTWAKI scenarios, and I don't think they will ever get that bad. But I do believe that there will come a time within the near future(5-10 years) where we will end up like Greece, and this is because of our over spending and out of control debt. We will have to rein it in somehow and it will not be pretty at all, and that's saying it nicely.

Also the federal government has buying the hell up out of ammo such as 5.56 and 7.62x39. This is a KNOWN fact and no one is saying anything about it. But why would Feds need 7.62x39 ammo? That is a standard round for a AK-47.

I would love to have a bullet proof SUV but the price is rather prohibitive.

BRUWIN
03-10-2014, 06:41 PM
I would love to have a bullet proof SUV but the price is rather prohibitive.

Actually...from what I remember PYB didn't spend a lot on it. That is what kind of interested me. I thought bullet proof cars were way out of my price range and I really would be interested in owning one. Not because I fear anarchy...but how nice would it be to flip people off at the stop light or driving through the hood? I think it would pay for itself for me first day.

CYBERFX1024
03-10-2014, 08:29 PM
Actually...from what I remember PYB didn't spend a lot on it. That is what kind of interested me. I thought bullet proof cars were way out of my price range and I really would be interested in owning one. Not because I fear anarchy...but how nice would it be to flip people off at the stop light or driving through the hood? I think it would pay for itself for me first day.

I have looked into it myself and the armoring starts at $50k. That is not including the price of a new car that you buy from them, but on top of the new car price.

efmbman
03-10-2014, 08:46 PM
I am not a big fan of the TEOTWAKI scenarios, and I don't think they will ever get that bad. But I do believe that there will come a time within the near future(5-10 years) where we will end up like Greece, and this is because of our over spending and out of control debt. We will have to rein it in somehow and it will not be pretty at all, and that's saying it nicely.

Also the federal government has buying the hell up out of ammo such as 5.56 and 7.62x39. This is a KNOWN fact and no one is saying anything about it. But why would Feds need 7.62x39 ammo? That is a standard round for a AK-47.

I would love to have a bullet proof SUV but the price is rather prohibitive.

Mostly agreed. However, TEOTWAWKI is subjective. A severe shift of lifestyle such as what happened in Greece may be TEOTWAWKI to someone. The Feds are buying ammo, but they have always bought ammo. The shortage of .22 LR and other calibers makes me think the "crisis" is self-made by hoarders.

I may be mistaken, but I think I read somewhere that the 7.62x39mm can also be used in the M1 series rifles of WW2 fame.

EDIT: the M1 takes a shorter round (33mm).

TJMAC77SP
03-10-2014, 11:10 PM
Actually...from what I remember PYB didn't spend a lot on it. That is what kind of interested me. I thought bullet proof cars were way out of my price range and I really would be interested in owning one. Not because I fear anarchy...but how nice would it be to flip people off at the stop light or driving through the hood? I think it would pay for itself for me first day.

Bru, he spent 70 grand on his Eclipse. Of course he had a lot of electronic (AV) equipment as well as the armoring.

Still chuckle at that.

He is going to some flight school through June. I should alert the SFS at that base. They might get 'shocked' if they try to open his car doors since they are booby-trapped (according to his youtube video).

Okie
03-11-2014, 04:25 AM
PYB is a very unpopular dude with the flyboys. He did a Air War College paper on Pilot culture and has been despised in the community ever since. It was a pretty spot on paper too...which was pretty amazing considering he is one of them.

Interesting comment considering he is a transport pilot commenting on the fighter pilot mentality. The fast-movers wouldn't call him an insider. Having said that, I agree with some of his points and disagree with others. In my experience, a "shoe clerk" is not a term for a non-flyer; rather, it's a term for a non-flyer who (at best) is unaware of the mission or (at worst) hindering the mission.

I am in agreement with his general premise. I have long lamented the tribalism pervasive in today's AF, and that's across ALL career fields.

efmbman
03-11-2014, 10:20 AM
I have long lamented the tribalism pervasive in today's AF, and that's across ALL career fields.

Is it like an "us versus them" mentality?

Monkey
03-11-2014, 04:36 PM
Interesting comment considering he is a transport pilot commenting on the fighter pilot mentality. The fast-movers wouldn't call him an insider. Having said that, I agree with some of his points and disagree with others. In my experience, a "shoe clerk" is not a term for a non-flyer; rather, it's a term for a non-flyer who (at best) is unaware of the mission or (at worst) hindering the mission.

I am in agreement with his general premise. I have long lamented the tribalism pervasive in today's AF, and that's across ALL career fields.

From what I gather, "shoe clerk" is on par with "nonner". Who is and who is not a "shoe clerk/nonner" is subjective to the individual. Both are terms that are used to support elitism within the user's community. The use of "nonner" by my colleagues has always made me embarrassed by association.

OtisRNeedleman
03-11-2014, 05:50 PM
From what I gather, "shoe clerk" is on par with "nonner". Who is and who is not a "shoe clerk/nonner" is subjective to the individual. Both are terms that are used to support elitism within the user's community. The use of "nonner" by my colleagues has always made me embarrassed by association. It's funny...while on active duty as a SIGINT officer I didn't worry about or put down any other AFSCs. They did what they did. I did what I did. Together we were a team. Okay, you're a pilot. Neat. Okay, you're finance. Cool. All one team.

TJMAC77SP
03-11-2014, 08:31 PM
It's funny...while on active duty as a SIGINT officer I didn't worry about or put down any other AFSCs. They did what they did. I did what I did. Together we were a team. Okay, you're a pilot. Neat. Okay, you're finance. Cool. All one team.

So you didn't consider anyone a 'lesser'?

Congratulations you aren't PYB.

BENDER56
03-12-2014, 03:41 AM
The thing I found most interesting was reading the "Mr. Bones' Eagle Driver Rules."

There it is -- codified for all the world to see -- the ROE for fighter jocks.

And I gotta tell you, as repugnant as part of me finds that kind of attitude, I'm glad we have guys (and, I suppose, gals) on our side who think that way.

http://www.fighterpilotuniversity.com/history/nature-of-the-beast/eagle-driver-rules/

Okie
03-12-2014, 06:08 AM
Is it like an "us versus them" mentality?

Yes. At one deployed location, out tents were next to CE's. They had put a little extra time and effort into their latrine (which I'm fine with). They went to their Sq/CC in an effort to get us banned from using their latrine (the closest one to us) because we weren't CE.

If you ever have a jumper throw up in the aircraft, you get to watch ops, mx, and the air terminal folks argue about who gets to clean it up. I have been told it's in the ATOC reg that they're not allowed to clean it up. Hell, I'll do it. I just need you to get me a mop and a bucket. Crap like this drives me nuts. Let's just get the mission done so we can all go home.

Okie
03-12-2014, 06:20 AM
From what I gather, "shoe clerk" is on par with "nonner". Who is and who is not a "shoe clerk/nonner" is subjective to the individual. Both are terms that are used to support elitism within the user's community. The use of "nonner" by my colleagues has always made me embarrassed by association.

I never saw it that way. When I use it (very rarely) it's because that person is obstructing the mission. This can include people who wear wings (usually at the CAOC).

Okie
03-12-2014, 06:23 AM
It's funny...while on active duty as a SIGINT officer I didn't worry about or put down any other AFSCs. They did what they did. I did what I did. Together we were a team. Okay, you're a pilot. Neat. Okay, you're finance. Cool. All one team.

I think the 80/20 principle appiles here. It's still like that with 80% of the people. The other 20% are either oblivious to the mission or are actively hampering it.

wxjumper
03-12-2014, 06:33 AM
Yes. At one deployed location, out tents were next to CE's. They had put a little extra time and effort into their latrine (which I'm fine with). They went to their Sq/CC in an effort to get us banned from using their latrine (the closest one to us) because we weren't CE.

If you ever have a jumper throw up in the aircraft, you get to watch ops, mx, and the air terminal folks argue about who gets to clean it up. I have been told it's in the ATOC reg that they're not allowed to clean it up. Hell, I'll do it. I just need you to get me a mop and a bucket. Crap like this drives me nuts. Let's just get the mission done so we can all go home.

If a jumper throws up in your aircraft and doesn't have the presence of mind to get a barf bag ready beforehand, make him clean up his own mess. I have thrown up on two jumps, both after the C-130 played map the earth for about an hour before we jumped. But I always threw up in a barf bag and either threw it in the garbage or put them in one of my cargo pockets before I jumped (and made sure not to PLF on that side!).

sandsjames
03-12-2014, 09:23 AM
Yes. At one deployed location, out tents were next to CE's. They had put a little extra time and effort into their latrine (which I'm fine with). They went to their Sq/CC in an effort to get us banned from using their latrine (the closest one to us) because we weren't CE.

If you ever have a jumper throw up in the aircraft, you get to watch ops, mx, and the air terminal folks argue about who gets to clean it up. I have been told it's in the ATOC reg that they're not allowed to clean it up. Hell, I'll do it. I just need you to get me a mop and a bucket. Crap like this drives me nuts. Let's just get the mission done so we can all go home.

Did you help CE with the extra time and effort put into their latrine?

SomeRandomGuy
03-12-2014, 11:24 AM
Did you help CE with the extra time and effort put into their latrine?

Only on Sushi night. I'm not sure if those things were undercooked or just didn't agree with my digestive system. Either way they went right through me and I appreciated the extra time CE spent on their latrine when I spent a little extra time in there.

technomage1
03-12-2014, 11:30 AM
Did you help CE with the extra time and effort put into their latrine?

That and was it getting messed up? Not by you specifically but in general.

Nothing like making something nice then having others trash it....

SomeRandomGuy
03-12-2014, 11:38 AM
That and was it getting messed up? Not by you specifically but in general.

Nothing like making something nice then having others trash it....

So if I'm understanding you guys correctly, you are advocating that people in a career field take care of themselves first. For finance you pay the guy in your squdaron's voucher before the guy who has been waiting 2 weeks. For medical you give the only avaliable appointment to your buddy instead of the person who actually needs it. Services and Comm work together to hook up high speed internet in their room for free on deployments. Cops allow each other to break laws while writing tickets to anyone else who does the same. We are saying all these things are perfectly fine but then we wonder where the "us versus them" mentality comes from.

BOSS302
03-12-2014, 01:06 PM
So if I'm understanding you guys correctly, you are advocating that people in a career field take care of themselves first. For finance you pay the guy in your squdaron's voucher before the guy who has been waiting 2 weeks. For medical you give the only avaliable appointment to your buddy instead of the person who actually needs it. Services and Comm work together to hook up high speed internet in their room for free on deployments. Cops allow each other to break laws while writing tickets to anyone else who does the same. We are saying all these things are perfectly fine but then we wonder where the "us versus them" mentality comes from.

No. You are not "understanding them correctly." When we remodeled our BBQ pit in Korea at the squadron hooch, we kicked-out Finance and SFS broskis who took it upon themselves to use it & trash it over the separate weekends.

I have fired at several different CATM ranges in which there is a separate sink and bathroom area for instructors only, since students with their grubby CPL-tainted dick skinners like to make a mess and then not clean it up.

If CE builds several latrines and then builds one up for themselves with special goodies & says, "This is for CE, built by CE," then tough for you and others. If you put a little sweat and skin into the building of the structure yourself, then perhaps you can use it. Otherwise, no. Go use another latrine.

What you need to understand is, "Tough, get over it & go process some travel vouchers correctly." I am sure that if several CE guys walked into your back office at Finance while deployed & just stood there soaking in the A/C and violating your office snack area, you would say "GTFO."

EDIT: Several squadrons have built their own little "hooches" while deployed. For their people, built by their own people. Good for them. Their craftsmanship usually sucks because there is nothing worse than a pilot trying to be an electrician or a Finance nerd being a "Have a go" carpenter. But otherwise, it's their space. Walk on by.

imported_UncommonSense
03-12-2014, 03:25 PM
No. You are not "understanding them correctly." When we remodeled our BBQ pit in Korea at the squadron hooch, we kicked-out Finance and SFS broskis who took it upon themselves to use it & trash it over the separate weekends.

I have fired at several different CATM ranges in which there is a separate sink and bathroom area for instructors only, since students with their grubby CPL-tainted dick skinners like to make a mess and then not clean it up.

If CE builds several latrines and then builds one up for themselves with special goodies & says, "This is for CE, built by CE," then tough for you and others. If you put a little sweat and skin into the building of the structure yourself, then perhaps you can use it. Otherwise, no. Go use another latrine.

What you need to understand is, "Tough, get over it & go process some travel vouchers correctly." I am sure that if several CE guys walked into your back office at Finance while deployed & just stood there soaking in the A/C and violating your office snack area, you would say "GTFO."

EDIT: Several squadrons have built their own little "hooches" while deployed. For their people, built by their own people. Good for them. Their craftsmanship usually sucks because there is nothing worse than a pilot trying to be an electrician or a Finance nerd being a "Have a go" carpenter. But otherwise, it's their space. Walk on by.


Noted on your examples. I disagree on the latrine situation though. In a deployed location X amount of latrines/shower facilities are built based on X amount of tents/occupants. If CE chooses to make a super special one near their tent, where non-CE tents are located, it should be known that occupants of those nearby tents will utilize it vs. walking to another X yards away. Now, if someone that lives across the way in tent city is coming over to utilize it because CE's latrine is prettier, then that would be cause for complaining.

Okie
03-12-2014, 04:26 PM
If a jumper throws up in your aircraft and doesn't have the presence of mind to get a barf bag ready beforehand, make him clean up his own mess. I have thrown up on two jumps, both after the C-130 played map the earth for about an hour before we jumped. But I always threw up in a barf bag and either threw it in the garbage or put them in one of my cargo pockets before I jumped (and made sure not to PLF on that side!).

That's absolutely the way it works most of time. However, sometimes the Army leaves you a present you don't find until they've jumped.

Okie
03-12-2014, 04:31 PM
Did you help CE with the extra time and effort put into their latrine?

Nope. I showed up, threw my stuff in my tent, grabbed my shower gear, headed to the closest shower/latrine and was confronted by some guy after getting out of the shower for using "CE's bathroom". Having said that, the base had been there a while, so I'm pretty sure those particular CE guys didn't do the work, either.

If you think that's cool, then by that logic:
- Only Services should get to eat since you didn't cook.
- Only Trans guys should get a vehicle.
- Only CE should get to use the roads, commodes, runway, electricity, plumbing, and tents (assuming they set them up, which isn't always the case).
- Ops and Mx guys should get to keep anything that comes in by air (until we run out of parts because Supply has them all).

ETA: Nice job, SomeRandomGuy, for adding to this.

Also, at my last base, our Sq had a giant formation briefing room and Heritage Room (the evil "Squadron Bar" that you read about - basically a room that we converted to that purpose). We let other Squadrons around base use the briefing room if it wasn't busy and they could serve refreshments in the Heritage Room if desired. It worked. Hell, I just thought we were just being good neighbors.

BRUWIN
03-12-2014, 04:32 PM
No. You are not "understanding them correctly." When we remodeled our BBQ pit in Korea at the squadron hooch, we kicked-out Finance and SFS broskis who took it upon themselves to use it & trash it over the separate weekends.

I have fired at several different CATM ranges in which there is a separate sink and bathroom area for instructors only, since students with their grubby CPL-tainted dick skinners like to make a mess and then not clean it up.

If CE builds several latrines and then builds one up for themselves with special goodies & says, "This is for CE, built by CE," then tough for you and others. If you put a little sweat and skin into the building of the structure yourself, then perhaps you can use it. Otherwise, no. Go use another latrine.

What you need to understand is, "Tough, get over it & go process some travel vouchers correctly." I am sure that if several CE guys walked into your back office at Finance while deployed & just stood there soaking in the A/C and violating your office snack area, you would say "GTFO."

EDIT: Several squadrons have built their own little "hooches" while deployed. For their people, built by their own people. Good for them. Their craftsmanship usually sucks because there is nothing worse than a pilot trying to be an electrician or a Finance nerd being a "Have a go" carpenter. But otherwise, it's their space. Walk on by.

I am currently deployed and we had a new group roll in while I've been here. The bathrooms and showers all have cipher locks (prevent green on blue)and they were all the same combo. Well...this new group rolled in and S-6 guys (comm) decided to claim one of the shower cabins as their own and changed the cipher combo. Hot water was a premium everywhere else since instead of 100 guys sharing three shower cabins you now had 94 guys sharing just two and the two we had left were smaller and had smaller hot water tanks while S6 laid claim to the biggest and best shower cabin...for six males. I had to have a cold shower in 30 degree weather as a result the very first day S-6 did this. I was fuming...and I had access to tools to fix this little problem, that door was about 5 minutes from being pried open before the Gunny finally stepped in and made S6 return the combo back to what it was. It amazes me how selfish sections can be once it becomes an us verses them mentality. What some don't realize is there are ways to defeat their selfishness. I was gonna pry the door open and I had no qualms about doing it so it could never lock again. Bar that their water tank and pump sat outside the shower cabins...there was a million ways to fuck them over with that setup and I would have had the situation carried on any longer. Selfishness drives me bonkers.

SomeRandomGuy
03-12-2014, 04:33 PM
No. You are not "understanding them correctly." When we remodeled our BBQ pit in Korea at the squadron hooch, we kicked-out Finance and SFS broskis who took it upon themselves to use it & trash it over the separate weekends.

I have fired at several different CATM ranges in which there is a separate sink and bathroom area for instructors only, since students with their grubby CPL-tainted dick skinners like to make a mess and then not clean it up.

If CE builds several latrines and then builds one up for themselves with special goodies & says, "This is for CE, built by CE," then tough for you and others. If you put a little sweat and skin into the building of the structure yourself, then perhaps you can use it. Otherwise, no. Go use another latrine.

What you need to understand is, "Tough, get over it & go process some travel vouchers correctly." I am sure that if several CE guys walked into your back office at Finance while deployed & just stood there soaking in the A/C and violating your office snack area, you would say "GTFO."

EDIT: Several squadrons have built their own little "hooches" while deployed. For their people, built by their own people. Good for them. Their craftsmanship usually sucks because there is nothing worse than a pilot trying to be an electrician or a Finance nerd being a "Have a go" carpenter. But otherwise, it's their space. Walk on by.

So if Base transportation buys Dodge Avengers for the base to use it's ok with you if they purchase a Dodge Viper for only Base Transportation to use? We would let the rest of the base use it but they keep trashing our Avangers. No way they are getting the keys to the Viper.

SomeRandomGuy
03-12-2014, 04:38 PM
It amazes me how selfish sections can be once it becomes an us verses them mentality.

Sort of like the selfishness of General Officers travleing in the AOR. They make sure they get one of their special pallets loaded so they have AC and a nice comfortable place to sleep. Meanwhile several troops get bumped off the flight to accomdate the pallet. Once people decide they are more important than others there is really no limit to thier selfishness.

BRUWIN
03-12-2014, 04:44 PM
Sort of like the selfishness of General Officers travleing in the AOR. They make sure they get one of their special pallets loaded so they have AC and a nice comfortable place to sleep. Meanwhile several troops get bumped off the flight to accomdate the pallet. Once people decide they are more important than others there is really no limit to thier selfishness.

Oh yeah...the "comfort cabins." Don't even get me started on that one. That little perk was a Stars and Stripes headline my second time to Iraq. If I was the pilot it would be a very bumpy ride.

OtisRNeedleman
03-12-2014, 05:16 PM
So you didn't consider anyone a 'lesser'?

Congratulations you aren't PYB.


Not really. As a butter-bar SIGINT officer I wasn't real impressed with the air intelligence officers I encountered on occasion. But as time went by I met some superb people who just happened to be air intelligence officers. And when I started doing acquisition management - with no training whatsoever - I learned just how much I didn't know about a whole bunch of things. But I knew how to find out who knew the things I didn't know, work with them, and learn from them. If you think you're smarter or better than anyone else you're going to have problems working with others, and your mission won't get accomplished. And generally when I encountered problems with someone from another AFSC it wasn't due to their AFSC, but rather personal qualities or lack thereof.

sandsjames
03-12-2014, 08:19 PM
So if I'm understanding you guys correctly, you are advocating that people in a career field take care of themselves first. For finance you pay the guy in your squdaron's voucher before the guy who has been waiting 2 weeks. For medical you give the only avaliable appointment to your buddy instead of the person who actually needs it. Services and Comm work together to hook up high speed internet in their room for free on deployments. Cops allow each other to break laws while writing tickets to anyone else who does the same. We are saying all these things are perfectly fine but then we wonder where the "us versus them" mentality comes from.


There's a difference between taking care of yourself and making things worse for someone else. As a CE member, I was on more than one deployment where we had showers built in our tents. We all built walls/doors inside the tent so everyone had their own room. However, we did NOT make things worse for anyone else. We didn't deprive any other sections of their living quarters. We didn't deprive anyone else of their showers. We just made ours better.

I have no problem with Comm hooking themselves up, as long as someone else isn't losing something.

I have no problem with Finance getting their vouchers taken care of first, as long as I'm still getting my paycheck. Not sure how this would be an issue, anyway, since you process 50,000 vouchers a month and there aren't nearly that many finance troops, I'm not losing out.

Now, it's an issue if I use some plywood in my tent for walls/doors when others don't even have floors. It's an issue Comm hooks themselves up with "high speed" when nobody else has any internet.

But, as long as everyone has what they are expecting to have then it's no big deal if each shop/section takes care of themselves.

sandsjames
03-12-2014, 08:25 PM
If you think that's cool, then by that logic:
- Only Services should get to eat since you didn't cook. Wrong. That would be like saying CE has a bathroom and everyone else has to shit in the woods. That wasn't the situation. If Services has some food they want to cook and I have MREs than it's not an issue.


- Only Trans guys should get a vehicle. No, but trans can ensure they have the most reliable vehicles, as long as I have a vehicle to use.

- Only CE should get to use the roads, commodes, runway, electricity, plumbing, and tents (assuming they set them up, which isn't always the case). Ridiculous. I will, however, give myself more outlets in my tent than the standard tent is going to have.

- Ops and Mx guys should get to keep anything that comes in by air (until we run out of parts because Supply has them all). Idiotic. You're comparing apples and oranges. If you reread his post, he didn't say he didn't have another bathroom to use. He said it was too far away and wasn't as nice.

sandsjames
03-12-2014, 08:26 PM
So if Base transportation buys Dodge Avengers for the base to use it's ok with you if they purchase a Dodge Viper for only Base Transportation to use? We would let the rest of the base use it but they keep trashing our Avangers. No way they are getting the keys to the Viper.Yep...no problem with that...

The problem isn't that it's an "Us vs Them" issue. It's an issue of jealousy. It's an issue of "I deserve what they have." It's the generation of everybody being owed something.

BRUWIN
03-12-2014, 10:39 PM
There's a difference between taking care of yourself and making things worse for someone else. As a CE member, I was on more than one deployment where we had showers built in our tents. We all built walls/doors inside the tent so everyone had their own room. However, we did NOT make things worse for anyone else. We didn't deprive any other sections of their living quarters. We didn't deprive anyone else of their showers. We just made ours better.

I have no problem with Comm hooking themselves up, as long as someone else isn't losing something.

I have no problem with Finance getting their vouchers taken care of first, as long as I'm still getting my paycheck. Not sure how this would be an issue, anyway, since you process 50,000 vouchers a month and there aren't nearly that many finance troops, I'm not losing out.

Now, it's an issue if I use some plywood in my tent for walls/doors when others don't even have floors. It's an issue Comm hooks themselves up with "high speed" when nobody else has any internet.

But, as long as everyone has what they are expecting to have then it's no big deal if each shop/section takes care of themselves.

CE built us a golf course during Desert Storm...right smack in the middle of Saudi Arabia. Now you might think they just half assed plowed a bunch of sand around and had been done with it but they actually put in quite a few water water hazards, built tee boxes and elevated greens. and a freaking clubhouse that you could sit on top off and watch people play while you drank neer beer. The club house also stored bags and bags of clubs that were flown in for us all to use. It was all sand of course but it played like a real course except you hit off a water bottle cap or a sqaure of artificial grass...whichever you preferred. Everybody used the bottle cap because the square turf would get caught up in the clubhead if you took a big divot. Just after the war was over they even had a club championship tournament. It was pretty cool.

technomage1
03-12-2014, 11:28 PM
So if I'm understanding you guys correctly, you are advocating that people in a career field take care of themselves first. For finance you pay the guy in your squdaron's voucher before the guy who has been waiting 2 weeks. For medical you give the only avaliable appointment to your buddy instead of the person who actually needs it. Services and Comm work together to hook up high speed internet in their room for free on deployments. Cops allow each other to break laws while writing tickets to anyone else who does the same. We are saying all these things are perfectly fine but then we wonder where the "us versus them" mentality comes from.

You yourself said they spent extra time on it making it nice for themselves. Everyone else had a basic latrine, which they could have spent time and effort to improve via a self help project the same as the CE folks. If this wasn't done, their hard work was trashed, or they weren't assisted with the project, they had a right to be upset about it. Who wouldn't be? Instead it seems everyone wanted to benefit from their extra effort to improve things without contributing.

The other examples you mention others couldn't do or contribute to. Self help projects anyone can do.

TSat75
03-13-2014, 01:17 AM
Umm, sorry - I'm comm. I called my wife from the desert all the time from our satellite vans. Even when the base commander at Al Jaber cut the morale phones off because we (comm) overheard, while monitoring calls as required, classified information being passed (flight times, etc.

Just like the folks that worked in the chow hall - they ate good. We'd let them use the phones in exchange for firing up the grill and pulling some steaks out for the night shift guys (on non-steak nights). We had CE come over and do some things for us and let them use the phones. We would fix guys game machines with new power ends, etc...I would solder the cables myself to make sure they would hold up during their deployment.

I don't see a problem with ANY of this. Each AFSC (especially in a deployed environment) has something to offer in trade. We had to downtown Kuwait city to get cable supplies (the local "Radio Shack"). Only 2 "needed" to go, but we never went without a full SUV. Some comm, some not comm that we took along in trade for something we wanted.

You could be dicks and not do anything for anyone...and follow every exact rule to the n'th detail - and be miserable...and ensure everyone is just as miserable. Or you can make the best of a crappy situation, let someone make a phone call to his wife so you can have a steak in the middle of the night. Win win.

Airborne
03-13-2014, 02:51 AM
Umm, sorry - I'm comm. I called my wife from the desert all the time from our satellite vans. Even when the base commander at Al Jaber cut the morale phones off because we (comm) overheard, while monitoring calls as required, classified information being passed (flight times, etc.

Just like the folks that worked in the chow hall - they ate good. We'd let them use the phones in exchange for firing up the grill and pulling some steaks out for the night shift guys (on non-steak nights). We had CE come over and do some things for us and let them use the phones. We would fix guys game machines with new power ends, etc...I would solder the cables myself to make sure they would hold up during their deployment.

I don't see a problem with ANY of this. Each AFSC (especially in a deployed environment) has something to offer in trade. We had to downtown Kuwait city to get cable supplies (the local "Radio Shack"). Only 2 "needed" to go, but we never went without a full SUV. Some comm, some not comm that we took along in trade for something we wanted.

You could be dicks and not do anything for anyone...and follow every exact rule to the n'th detail - and be miserable...and ensure everyone is just as miserable. Or you can make the best of a crappy situation, let someone make a phone call to his wife so you can have a steak in the middle of the night. Win win.

Post of the month.

sandsjames
03-13-2014, 09:38 AM
Umm, sorry - I'm comm. I called my wife from the desert all the time from our satellite vans. Even when the base commander at Al Jaber cut the morale phones off because we (comm) overheard, while monitoring calls as required, classified information being passed (flight times, etc.

Just like the folks that worked in the chow hall - they ate good. We'd let them use the phones in exchange for firing up the grill and pulling some steaks out for the night shift guys (on non-steak nights). We had CE come over and do some things for us and let them use the phones. We would fix guys game machines with new power ends, etc...I would solder the cables myself to make sure they would hold up during their deployment.

I don't see a problem with ANY of this. Each AFSC (especially in a deployed environment) has something to offer in trade. We had to downtown Kuwait city to get cable supplies (the local "Radio Shack"). Only 2 "needed" to go, but we never went without a full SUV. Some comm, some not comm that we took along in trade for something we wanted.

You could be dicks and not do anything for anyone...and follow every exact rule to the n'th detail - and be miserable...and ensure everyone is just as miserable. Or you can make the best of a crappy situation, let someone make a phone call to his wife so you can have a steak in the middle of the night. Win win.

You have phones in the vans?? That's NOT FAIR!!! :witless:

Of course this is how it is, how it has always been, and how it should be.

Chief_KO
03-13-2014, 11:15 AM
Old deployed comm story (circa 1988). I worked in the telephone switch van (TTC-39). Back then a deployed site would have 1-2 commercial phone circuits & 2-3 Autovon (DSN) circuits that were reserved for commanders, etc. Every day or so the operators would give access to their buds...then I'd get the call that Col or Gen so-and-so could not dial out. So I would have to run diagnostics to find out what phone lines had illegal access.
One exercise the General was an Army guy, LTG H. Norman Schwarzkopf...and on of my tasks was to go into the command trailer every morning around 0530 to check out all the comms. One afternoon I came to work and my supervisor asked me if I had been using the General's phone to make long distance calls. See, back in the day we received a monthly bill for those commercial lines that included long distance phone charges (by time/number) and there were calls made at odd times and definitely not by the General, so the finger was pointed at us comm guys (and my answer was no). Well, CID started watching the command trailer, and one night saw an Army "cable dog" plug in his portable phone (called a butt set) into the patch panel and make his "hey momma" call.
And the DSN lines...one night complaints that the DSN lines were tied up, yet no one was on them....it was our operators. Well, I patched in to see who was on...only to listen in to the middle of a hot & heavy girl-on-girl phone sex between two of our operators at two different sites. It was sooooo hot, I called my partner from the message switch to come over and listen on the speaker. It lasted a good hour....

CYBERFX1024
03-13-2014, 12:46 PM
Umm, sorry - I'm comm. I called my wife from the desert all the time from our satellite vans. Even when the base commander at Al Jaber cut the morale phones off because we (comm) overheard, while monitoring calls as required, classified information being passed (flight times, etc.
Just like the folks that worked in the chow hall - they ate good. We'd let them use the phones in exchange for firing up the grill and pulling some steaks out for the night shift guys (on non-steak nights). We had CE come over and do some things for us and let them use the phones. We would fix guys game machines with new power ends, etc...I would solder the cables myself to make sure they would hold up during their deployment.
I don't see a problem with ANY of this. Each AFSC (especially in a deployed environment) has something to offer in trade. We had to downtown Kuwait city to get cable supplies (the local "Radio Shack"). Only 2 "needed" to go, but we never went without a full SUV. Some comm, some not comm that we took along in trade for something we wanted.
You could be dicks and not do anything for anyone...and follow every exact rule to the n'th detail - and be miserable...and ensure everyone is just as miserable. Or you can make the best of a crappy situation, let someone make a phone call to his wife so you can have a steak in the middle of the night. Win win.

That's how it always is in Comm, no matter what service you are in. I helped out a number of people in different sections when I was in Iraq, and when it came due I called in my favors. That's how I got tons of "free stuff" from supply before we left country.

TSat75
03-13-2014, 01:11 PM
Old deployed comm story (circa 1988). I worked in the telephone switch van (TTC-39). Back then a deployed site would have 1-2 commercial phone circuits & 2-3 Autovon (DSN) circuits that were reserved for commanders, etc. Every day or so the operators would give access to their buds...then I'd get the call that Col or Gen so-and-so could not dial out. So I would have to run diagnostics to find out what phone lines had illegal access.
One exercise the General was an Army guy, LTG H. Norman Schwarzkopf...and on of my tasks was to go into the command trailer every morning around 0530 to check out all the comms. One afternoon I came to work and my supervisor asked me if I had been using the General's phone to make long distance calls. See, back in the day we received a monthly bill for those commercial lines that included long distance phone charges (by time/number) and there were calls made at odd times and definitely not by the General, so the finger was pointed at us comm guys (and my answer was no). Well, CID started watching the command trailer, and one night saw an Army "cable dog" plug in his portable phone (called a butt set) into the patch panel and make his "hey momma" call.
And the DSN lines...one night complaints that the DSN lines were tied up, yet no one was on them....it was our operators. Well, I patched in to see who was on...only to listen in to the middle of a hot & heavy girl-on-girl phone sex between two of our operators at two different sites. It was sooooo hot, I called my partner from the message switch to come over and listen on the speaker. It lasted a good hour....

Yeah, we had some DSN lines in the SATCOM terminals that were long locals from the STEP sites (didn't take any lines away from the base). These were for troubleshooting in case the 3865 went down. But of course, when not used for troubleshooting...a DSN connectin is a DSN connection :)

BRUWIN
03-13-2014, 05:17 PM
And the DSN lines...one night complaints that the DSN lines were tied up, yet no one was on them....it was our operators. Well, I patched in to see who was on...only to listen in to the middle of a hot & heavy girl-on-girl phone sex between two of our operators at two different sites. It was sooooo hot, I called my partner from the message switch to come over and listen on the speaker. It lasted a good hour....

Awesome...it should have been broadcasted over the camp PA, as a morale boost.

giggawatt
03-14-2014, 05:08 AM
Old deployed comm story (circa 1988). I worked in the telephone switch van (TTC-39). Back then a deployed site would have 1-2 commercial phone circuits & 2-3 Autovon (DSN) circuits that were reserved for commanders, etc. Every day or so the operators would give access to their buds...then I'd get the call that Col or Gen so-and-so could not dial out. So I would have to run diagnostics to find out what phone lines had illegal access.
One exercise the General was an Army guy, LTG H. Norman Schwarzkopf...and on of my tasks was to go into the command trailer every morning around 0530 to check out all the comms. One afternoon I came to work and my supervisor asked me if I had been using the General's phone to make long distance calls. See, back in the day we received a monthly bill for those commercial lines that included long distance phone charges (by time/number) and there were calls made at odd times and definitely not by the General, so the finger was pointed at us comm guys (and my answer was no). Well, CID started watching the command trailer, and one night saw an Army "cable dog" plug in his portable phone (called a butt set) into the patch panel and make his "hey momma" call.
And the DSN lines...one night complaints that the DSN lines were tied up, yet no one was on them....it was our operators. Well, I patched in to see who was on...only to listen in to the middle of a hot & heavy girl-on-girl phone sex between two of our operators at two different sites. It was sooooo hot, I called my partner from the message switch to come over and listen on the speaker. It lasted a good hour....

Go onnnnnnnn......

Drackore
03-14-2014, 08:32 AM
If you aren't trading your specialties to other folks to improve morale, and then calling the favors in yourself to make your life just a little more tolerable - you are doing it wrong.

BISSBOSS
03-14-2014, 01:00 PM
Old deployed comm story (circa 1988). I worked in the telephone switch van (TTC-39). Back then a deployed site would have 1-2 commercial phone circuits & 2-3 Autovon (DSN) circuits that were reserved for commanders, etc. Every day or so the operators would give access to their buds...then I'd get the call that Col or Gen so-and-so could not dial out. So I would have to run diagnostics to find out what phone lines had illegal access.
One exercise the General was an Army guy, LTG H. Norman Schwarzkopf...and on of my tasks was to go into the command trailer every morning around 0530 to check out all the comms. One afternoon I came to work and my supervisor asked me if I had been using the General's phone to make long distance calls. See, back in the day we received a monthly bill for those commercial lines that included long distance phone charges (by time/number) and there were calls made at odd times and definitely not by the General, so the finger was pointed at us comm guys (and my answer was no). Well, CID started watching the command trailer, and one night saw an Army "cable dog" plug in his portable phone (called a butt set) into the patch panel and make his "hey momma" call.
And the DSN lines...one night complaints that the DSN lines were tied up, yet no one was on them....it was our operators. Well, I patched in to see who was on...only to listen in to the middle of a hot & heavy girl-on-girl phone sex between two of our operators at two different sites. It was sooooo hot, I called my partner from the message switch to come over and listen on the speaker. It lasted a good hour....


Great story!

When I was stationed at Rhein Main we worked at the Feldberg Radio Relay Link North of Frankfurt doing PMIs on the old Comm DEB equip.

Patching the "Monitor" Jacks into the external speakers while working was WAY more interesting than the AFN feed!

-BB-

Chief_KO
03-15-2014, 01:41 AM
Great story!

When I was stationed at Rhein Main we worked at the Feldberg Radio Relay Link North of Frankfurt doing PMIs on the old Comm DEB equip.

Patching the "Monitor" Jacks into the external speakers while working was WAY more interesting than the AFN feed!

-BB-

The real kicker to that story was a buddy of mine who was chasing after one of the operators. He asked her out at least 3 or 4 times. When got back to home station (he was deployed to another site), I told him why she kept turning him down.

Back in the day stealing deployment signs was the thing to do. One morning as I was checking out Stormin Norman's comms I spied his starched and blocked 3-star BDU cap on his desk. I almost swiped it, but then I realized "hey dumba$$, you had to sign a log to enter his office...even the Army will figure out you stole it". But there on his desk was his personalized stationary. I had never seen a general's stationary so I lifted one sheet. Just 2 years later he was a 4-star and world famous. I think I still got that sheet of paper in one of my boxes of stuff.

MACHINE666
03-18-2014, 07:31 PM
The best thing I ever did in the Air Force was retire.

Even wild horses could not drag me back into that pitiful former-existence.

imported_Sgt HULK
03-19-2014, 08:21 PM
Is it like an "us versus them" mentality?


lol this is fostered even in training at OTS last yr even we made fun of the "pilots" and they werent even pilots yet, They all even congregated together to talk pilot stuff

imported_Sgt HULK
03-19-2014, 08:27 PM
apparently this site was not the only site that LOL'ed at the armored car and cop incident simply googling this guys name shows forums upon forums. Does the USAF know that his name attached to rank is spattered all over the intrawebs http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19256902 check out this gem

Chief_KO
03-19-2014, 09:19 PM
lol this is fostered even in training at OTS last yr even we made fun of the "pilots" and they werent even pilots yet, They all even congregated together to talk pilot stuff

Like who's nickname is the coolest sexual innuendo, leather jacket cleaning tips, the art of wearing the flight cap "aircrew style", mirrored sunglasses: "Yes or No", and just "how bad are enlisted Airmen, for real"...