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garhkal
02-28-2014, 06:57 PM
Wow, just wow. So students in school are not allowed to wear the US flag to school, just in case it offends the minorities (like it did on Cinco de Mayo) and inflames violence. Will the same rules be enforced when it comes to those wearing flags of other countries?

sandsjames
02-28-2014, 07:16 PM
Wow, just wow. So students in school are not allowed to wear the US flag to school, just in case it offends the minorities (like it did on Cinco de Mayo) and inflames violence. Will the same rules be enforced when it comes to those wearing flags of other countries?

No chance. If you'll remember back about a year ago there was the uproar about the USA chant at a high school game and the students were all called racist.

I can promise you this, though...all other flags will be fine. I'd think that since all students going to American schools paid for by tax payers should be fine with the American flag, since they should be American citizens (or legal residents at the very least). But we all know the truth of the matter...and with this one I'm probably more on the side of wildjoker than I'd ever hope to be.

Rusty Jones
02-28-2014, 09:51 PM
Wow, just wow. So students in school are not allowed to wear the US flag to school, just in case it offends the minorities (like it did on Cinco de Mayo) and inflames violence. Will the same rules be enforced when it comes to those wearing flags of other countries?

Actually, according to 4 U.S.C. Chapter 1, NO ONE is supposed to wear the American flag. It's rarely, if ever, enforced. Looks like someone finally did it.

Rusty Jones
02-28-2014, 09:54 PM
No chance. If you'll remember back about a year ago there was the uproar about the USA chant at a high school game and the students were all called racist.

You mean when they tried to imply that the mostly Hispanic kids on the other team were not American? Just thought I'd mention the part you left out.

sandsjames
02-28-2014, 10:05 PM
Actually, according to 4 U.S.C. Chapter 1, NO ONE is supposed to wear the American flag. It's rarely, if ever, enforced. Looks like someone finally did it.

For the wrong reason. I highly doubt they even know there is a 4 U.S.C. Chapter 1. You know that's not what this is about.

sandsjames
02-28-2014, 10:06 PM
You mean when they tried to imply that the mostly Hispanic kids on the other team were not American? Just thought I'd mention the part you left out.

Not implying anything. No need to imply.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-28-2014, 10:21 PM
Wow, just wow. So students in school are not allowed to wear the US flag to school, just in case it offends the minorities (like it did on Cinco de Mayo) and inflames violence. Will the same rules be enforced when it comes to those wearing flags of other countries?

How about a little context to what you are talking about. Do you mean a shirt with a depiction of the American Flag on it?

Are you talking about wearing the American Flag as a toga or cutting a hole in it and wearing it like a poncho?

Give a link to a story or use your words a little better.

Rusty Jones
02-28-2014, 10:52 PM
How about a little context to what you are talking about. Do you mean a shirt with a depiction of the American Flag on it?

Are you talking about wearing the American Flag as a toga or cutting a hole in it and wearing it like a poncho?

Give a link to a story or use your words a little better.

Just like the Cinco De Mayo incident, he's probably leaving out the details. When a bunch of dudes with American flag t-shirts crash a Cinco De Mayo party with mostly Mexican Americans, they know what they're doing. The American flag itself - nor the chanting of "USA" itself is the problem. It's the unstated intentions behind it. And because the intentions are unstated, the people subjected to their bullshit are made to look like the bad guys when they speak up.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-28-2014, 11:08 PM
Court: School was within its rights to ban U.S. flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo

By Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN
updated 1:03 PM EST, Fri February 28, 2014

(CNN) -- A California school that stopped students from wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo didn't violate their constitutional rights, an appeals court ruled Thursday.
The school's approach, according to the appeals court, kept students safe in a climate of racial tension.

"The controversy and tension remained," a panel of judges from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said in their opinion, "but the school's actions presciently avoided an altercation."

School officials were worried about violence and disruption of school activities "and their response was tailored to the circumstance," the opinion said.

The case dates back to May 5, 2010, when the principal of Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, California, asked a group of students wearing American flag T-shirts to turn their shirts inside out or take them off.

The students at the Northern California school refused, according to the appeals court's summary of the case, and later brought a civil rights suit against the school and two administrators, arguing that their rights to freedom of expression, equal protection and due process had been violated.

Judges said the civil rights case forced them to weigh the difficult question of what takes precedence: students' free speech rights or school safety concerns?

According to court documents, the incident occurred amid "ongoing racial tension and gang violence within the school, and after a near-violent altercation had erupted during the prior Cinco de Mayo over the display of an American flag."

The previous year, court documents said, a group of students carrying a Mexican flag had clashed with students who hung an American flag from a tree and chanted "USA" on Cinco de Mayo, a holiday marking a famous Mexican military battle that is often celebrated in the United States.

In 2010, the appeals court said, "threats issued in the aftermath of the incident were so real that the parents of the students involved in the suit kept them home from school two days later."

CNN first learned of the court's ruling on Twitter.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-28-2014, 11:16 PM
An appeals court ruling came in today that upheld the schools decision to to ask the students with the shirts to remove them or turn them inside out at a Cinco de Mayo party four years ago.

I see nothing about American Flags or shirts with American Flags on them being banned at any school.

It is a big difference if the school officials were trying to diffuse a confrontation and issued those instructions, as opposed to an outright ban on American Flags.

sandsjames
02-28-2014, 11:22 PM
Court: School was within its rights to ban U.S. flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo

By Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN
updated 1:03 PM EST, Fri February 28, 2014

(CNN) -- A California school that stopped students from wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo didn't violate their constitutional rights, an appeals court ruled Thursday.
The school's approach, according to the appeals court, kept students safe in a climate of racial tension.

"The controversy and tension remained," a panel of judges from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said in their opinion, "but the school's actions presciently avoided an altercation."

School officials were worried about violence and disruption of school activities "and their response was tailored to the circumstance," the opinion said.

The case dates back to May 5, 2010, when the principal of Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, California, asked a group of students wearing American flag T-shirts to turn their shirts inside out or take them off.

The students at the Northern California school refused, according to the appeals court's summary of the case, and later brought a civil rights suit against the school and two administrators, arguing that their rights to freedom of expression, equal protection and due process had been violated.

Judges said the civil rights case forced them to weigh the difficult question of what takes precedence: students' free speech rights or school safety concerns?

According to court documents, the incident occurred amid "ongoing racial tension and gang violence within the school, and after a near-violent altercation had erupted during the prior Cinco de Mayo over the display of an American flag."

The previous year, court documents said, a group of students carrying a Mexican flag had clashed with students who hung an American flag from a tree and chanted "USA" on Cinco de Mayo, a holiday marking a famous Mexican military battle that is often celebrated in the United States.

In 2010, the appeals court said, "threats issued in the aftermath of the incident were so real that the parents of the students involved in the suit kept them home from school two days later."

CNN first learned of the court's ruling on Twitter.

So the issue here is that it's unsafe to wear it on a Mexican holiday. Is that more about the person wearing that shirt or the people who make him unsafe?

Actually, I've changed my mind. Let's all agree not to display the American Flag on Cinco de Mayo and then we can agree that the Mexican flag shall not be displayed within the U.S. on the other 364 days. Sounds fair.

sandsjames
02-28-2014, 11:24 PM
An appeals court ruling came in today that upheld the schools decision to to ask the students with the shirts to remove them or turn them inside out at a Cinco de Mayo party four years ago.

I see nothing about American Flags or shirts with American Flags on them being banned at any school.

It is a big difference if the school officials were trying to diffuse a confrontation and issued those instructions, as opposed to an outright ban on American Flags.

How about diffusing the situation by ensuring the people celebrating don't place someone in "danger" for wearing the shirt? Can't imagine what would happen if they were told not to display anything Mexican.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-28-2014, 11:28 PM
So the issue here is that it's unsafe to wear it on a Mexican holiday. Is that more about the person wearing that shirt or the people who make him unsafe?

Actually, I've changed my mind. Let's all agree not to display the American Flag on Cinco de Mayo and then we can agree that the Mexican flag shall not be displayed within the U.S. on the other 364 days. Sounds fair.

It sounds more like one group of kids trying to start a fight with another group of kids. The school could have handled it better by addressing the matter of violence and not by who was carrying what flag.

sandsjames
02-28-2014, 11:55 PM
It sounds more like one group of kids trying to start a fight with another group of kids. The school could have handled it better by addressing the matter of violence and not by who was carrying what flag.

Agree...

The kid was a douche bag, no doubt. The bigger issue is that nobody, no matter what nationality/background, should feel they are in danger for celebrating their heritage. Nor should they be offended by others doing it.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-28-2014, 11:57 PM
How about diffusing the situation by ensuring the people celebrating don't place someone in "danger" for wearing the shirt? Can't imagine what would happen if they were told not to display anything Mexican.

I think that the First Lady should go to the school and remove all the vending machines, and then, make everyone eat carrots and celery.

Then we should start flying Rainbow Flags because they are more inclusive. We don't need all those other flags if we fly a Rainbow Flag, because it has all the primary colors in it. The primary colors make all the other colors, so you wouldn't even need any other flag.

That's why I like Rainbows. Hey! We should start a Rainbow Coalition!

Did you know that the rainbow was originally invented by god as a promise not to ever again, drown everyone in the world?

You see, god got mad at everybody for being wicked, so he drowned them all, because he is merciful. That is why he decided to drown everyone, because he is merciful and loves everyone, so he drowned them all; well, except for this one family who had a homemade ark with a pair of all the animal species in the world on it.

Yep, Rainbow Flags would solve everything, plus, they'd protect us from genocide by global flooding.

MitchellJD1969
03-01-2014, 01:14 AM
So the issue here is that it's unsafe to wear it on a Mexican holiday. Is that more about the person wearing that shirt or the people who make him unsafe?

Actually, I've changed my mind. Let's all agree not to display the American Flag on Cinco de Mayo and then we can agree that the Mexican flag shall not be displayed within the U.S. on the other 364 days. Sounds fair.

No flags or flag apparel period...no matter what flag it may happen to be....that way nobody is offended.

Though just to tweak the faculty and school administration, if it was me, I would wear a bright red shirt with the hammer and sickle for a couple of days. Then again...they may be more sympethetic and think I might be a fellow traveller.

sandsjames
03-01-2014, 02:05 AM
No flags or flag apparel period...no matter what flag it may happen to be....that way nobody is offended.

Though just to tweak the faculty and school administration, if it was me, I would wear a bright red shirt with the hammer and sickle for a couple of days. Then again...they may be more sympethetic and think I might be a fellow traveller.


Or, how 'bout people just quit getting offended about everything? At one point we lived in a free country. That included freedom of speech and expression.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 03:50 AM
Or, how 'bout people just quit getting offended about everything? At one point we lived in a free country. That included freedom of speech and expression.

Naw, I like my Rainbow Flag initiative much better.

Imagine, just imagine, there's no countries...

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

It isn't hard to do, if you listen to a shit load of NPR...

You may say I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope one day you'll listen to the Diane Rehm Show

And the world will live as one

garhkal
03-01-2014, 06:01 AM
How about a little context to what you are talking about. Do you mean a shirt with a depiction of the American Flag on it?

Are you talking about wearing the American Flag as a toga or cutting a hole in it and wearing it like a poncho?

Give a link to a story or use your words a little better.

From the news sites, it seems the story where it happened was related to students coming in on Cinco de Mayo wearing US flags on their shirts and were 'forced' to turn them inside out, so as to avoid any potential issues with the hispanic students..

https://news.yahoo.com/america-2014-students-no-wear-american-flag-apparel-135142730.html


Actually, I've changed my mind. Let's all agree not to display the American Flag on Cinco de Mayo and then we can agree that the Mexican flag shall not be displayed within the U.S. on the other 364 days. Sounds fair.

I am down with that. But the likely hood of the powers that be passing something like that is slim to none.


Or, how 'bout people just quit getting offended about everything? At one point we lived in a free country. That included freedom of speech and expression.

agreed. It seems like we are free to say stuff, only so long as someone is never offended by it..

Rainmaker
03-01-2014, 02:06 PM
Rainmaker wonders, How do all these Mexican kids get into the school in the first place anyway? Don't they have to show up on time or they lock the doors? aren't they too busy taking care of some goats in the California mountains to go to school?

Rainmaker
03-01-2014, 02:20 PM
Naw, I like my Rainbow Flag initiative much better.

Imagine, just imagine, there's no countries...

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

It isn't hard to do, if you listen to a shit load of NPR...

You may say I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope one day you'll listen to the Diane Rehm Show

And the world will live as one

That's heavy man. sound like ABS be droppin acid not bombs.

TJMAC77SP
03-01-2014, 03:12 PM
Just like the Cinco De Mayo incident, he's probably leaving out the details. When a bunch of dudes with American flag t-shirts crash a Cinco De Mayo party with mostly Mexican Americans, they know what they're doing. The American flag itself - nor the chanting of "USA" itself is the problem. It's the unstated intentions behind it. And because the intentions are unstated, the people subjected to their bullshit are made to look like the bad guys when they speak up.

Actually the court case (http://www.ryot.org/federal-court-upholds-high-schools-controvesial-ban-on-american-flag-t-shirts/586697) was about the Cinco de Mayo case and it is about a school in California sending students home who wore t-shirts with the US flag on them on the 5th of May. There was no party.

I have no problem with the ruling if (and it is unstated) all depictions of flags are banned. If the idea of the ban (and there was a ban) is to lessen racial intentions as stated there is no viable reason to allow any flags to be worn or displayed. Of course since it is a school in the US I will assume there are US flags on display all the time.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 03:42 PM
Actually the court case (http://www.ryot.org/federal-court-upholds-high-schools-controvesial-ban-on-american-flag-t-shirts/586697) was about the Cinco de Mayo case and it is about a school in California sending students home who wore t-shirts with the US flag on them on the 5th of May. There was no party.

I have no problem with the ruling if (and it is unstated) all depictions of flags are banned. If the idea of the ban (and there was a ban)is to lessen racial intentions as stated there is no viable reason to allow any flags to be worn or displayed. Of course since it is a school in the US I will assume there are US flags on display all the time.

Please explain the nature and duration of the ban. If we are both talking about the California case in the CNN article I posted on page one, it was an action taken on one particular day and not an indefinite moratorium on American flags.

I don't like how the school administrators handled the situation that day, but I like it even less when people exaggerate and try to portray that American Flags have been outlawed.

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 05:09 PM
This California case is a symptom of liberalism run amok. It comes on the heels of a situation in Fort Collins, Colorado where the kids at a local high school tried to have "America Day" but were prevented by the administration. We now have an education system where everyone is allowed to celebrate their national heritage except American kids, who are labeled racist if they try. As for the Hispanic kids who participated in the Cinco de Mayo celebration at the California school, they showed more loyalty to Mexico than they did to the U.S. but we are supposed to be "tolerant." Well, include me out. I am fed up with this nonsense. The California school should have told everyone that the Cinco de Mayo celebration was fine but not on school time. The federal courts just make things worse with inane rulings that hold the kids wearing American flags accountable but not the kids celebrating a Mexican holiday during school hours. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/02/04/fort-collins-high-school-rethinking-banning-merica-day/

TJMAC77SP
03-01-2014, 05:37 PM
Please explain the nature and duration of the ban. If we are both talking about the California case in the CNN article I posted on page one, it was an action taken on one particular day and not an indefinite moratorium on American flags.

I don't like how the school administrators handled the situation that day, but I like it even less when people exaggerate and try to portray that American Flags have been outlawed.

Well, the nature of the ban is that students were prohibited from wearing clothing which depicted the US Flag or from wearing the flag itself. As to the duration, it is unclear. It was probably for one day but logic tells me it will be in place again in 3 months.

I think you are reading into my post, for whatever reason. The main reason for my post was Rusty's misstatement of the 'facts'. Hence why I quoted his post.

Note my words.............."I have no problem with the ruling if (and it is unstated) all depictions of flags are banned."

Of course it would have been clearer if I had said "depictions of all flags" instead but I am sure I was understood nonetheless.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 05:44 PM
This California case is a symptom of liberalism run amok. It comes on the heels of a situation in Fort Collins, Colorado where the kids at a local high school tried to have "America Day" but were prevented by the administration.

Are you even reading the story you are referring to? The contention was about the name (which you misquoted) and not the celebration.

Plus, other students opposed it not just school officials who stepped in to mediate it.

From the article you linked:

"On Tuesday people protested the reasons why and debated whether, “Merica” itself is a politically correct thing to say.

“We decided that it was really rude of them, because “Merica” is a slang for a bad version of us. We wanted to show that we’re “America” not “Merica,” said student Patrick Case.

The controversy revolves around the term and not on if the school was trying to say they couldn’t celebrate their country.

“They were just trying to take a derogatory term and make it correct,” said student Daniel Banks.
In a statement made by the Poudre School District, school leaders first said naming the day “My Country Monday” would be more appropriate and allow international students to also showcase their pride.

But they then in another statement they renamed it “America Monday” after Tuesday’s protests and critics on social media called out the school for stamping down free speech."

Frankly, I object to the term Merica Day. That's a bunch of dumb redneck shit and you are trying to make them out to be innocent little patriots being trampled by jack booted liberals.

Give me a break.


We now have an education system where everyone is allowed to celebrate their national heritage except American kids, who are labeled racist if they try. As for the Hispanic kids who participated in the Cinco de Mayo celebration at the California school, they showed more loyalty to Mexico than they did to the U.S. but we are supposed to be "tolerant." Well, include me out. I am fed up with this nonsense. The California school should have told everyone that the Cinco de Mayo celebration was fine but not on school time. The federal courts just make things worse with inane rulings that hold the kids wearing American flags accountable but not the kids celebrating a Mexican holiday during school hours. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/02/04/fort-collins-high-school-rethinking-banning-merica-day/

As for the Cinco de Mayo case, the court did not "hold the kids accountable" their ruling was on if the school officials acted properly or not.

You are clearly blowing things out of proportion or simply not reading things very carefully.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 06:02 PM
As for the endless stream of stories that come out in the news as the result of some dolt administrator making a dumb decision. You guys realize that this is just hype to piss people off and support a political narrative, don't you?

Is the decision of a high school principal in Colorado or California, really reflective of what elective officials in Washington DC are doing?

No, but it is hyped and stirred up by bloggers, Face-bookers, and AM radio talk show hosts for a myriad of reasons.

I can't stand panicky exaggerators, liberal or conservative, and that is exactly what this type of story is.

Oh No! A six year old boy was sent home from school for biting his Pop Tart into the shape of a gun! The sky is falling, my second amendment rights are under siege! Oh dear! Look what they are doing now!

How about acknowledging that some school officials at the local level are dumb and make dumb calls sometimes? It doesn't mean the whole country is going to hell.

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 06:07 PM
Actually, a lot of us feel the country IS going to hell.

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 06:15 PM
(quote from linked article) In a statement made by the Poudre School District, school leaders first said naming the day “My Country Monday” would be more appropriate and allow international students to also showcase their pride.
We Americans must always be all inclusive. Others can celebrate their national heritage but we Americans must always defer to immigrants lest we hurt their feelings or offend them. As I said, "Include me out."

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 06:15 PM
Actually, a lot of us feel the country IS going to hell.

Do you think it might have something to do with getting upset over half way reading a bunch of hype?

Slow your roll, and try analyzing a little of the story instead of reacting to headlines.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 06:21 PM
We Americans must always be all inclusive. Others can celebrate their national heritage but we Americans must always defer to immigrants lest we hurt their feelings or offend them. As I said, "Include me out."

Considering we are a country of primarily immigrants, I don't really find that surprising. Unless, you are Native American, but then you'd have another axe to grind.

PS

In the very next sentence, that you failed to read or ignored on purpose, the school officials ended up calling it America Monday.

You just like complaining, don't you?

garhkal
03-01-2014, 06:32 PM
This California case is a symptom of liberalism run amok. It comes on the heels of a situation in Fort Collins, Colorado where the kids at a local high school tried to have "America Day" but were prevented by the administration. We now have an education system where everyone is allowed to celebrate their national heritage except American kids, who are labeled racist if they try. As for the Hispanic kids who participated in the Cinco de Mayo celebration at the California school, they showed more loyalty to Mexico than they did to the U.S. but we are supposed to be "tolerant." Well, include me out. I am fed up with this nonsense. The California school should have told everyone that the Cinco de Mayo celebration was fine but not on school time. The federal courts just make things worse with inane rulings that hold the kids wearing American flags accountable but not the kids celebrating a Mexican holiday during school hours. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/02/04/fort-collins-high-school-rethinking-banning-merica-day/

On one of the other sites i put this topic up, that same thought was mentioned by another poster, that it seems these days its ok to be 'loyal to another country' but not the US.

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 06:38 PM
AA- Stop and analyze it and don't be such a reactionary is what you are telling me. Were this an isolated incident I would agree but in case you missed it we constantly have "diversity" crammed down our throats now. Schools do more to promote differences than they do to create a melting pot. Americans who object to all this are "racists." In the past there would have been no need to celebrate 'Merica Day at school but since every other nationality gets to celebrate their heritage on school time it has created a reactionary movement. And frequently the PC school administrators do really inflammatory stuff that just makes it worse. You are free to call me anything you want but I stand by what I said.

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 06:48 PM
AA- The school district in Colorado only caved after it got a lot of unwanted attention. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/02/03/todd-starnes-cant-celebrate-america-school-says/ While not everyone is sick of all the "diversity" that we are expected to not only tolerate but celebrate, I will say that many of us are. And yeah, I am complaining about this. I mistakenly thought this was a debate but apparently I am supposed to march to the same drummer you do.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 07:09 PM
AA- The school district in Colorado only caved after it got a lot of unwanted attention. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/02/03/todd-starnes-cant-celebrate-america-school-says/ While not everyone is sick of all the "diversity" that we are expected to not only tolerate but celebrate, I will say that many of us are. And yeah, I am complaining about this. I mistakenly thought this was a debate but apparently I am supposed to march to the same drummer you do.

So, you are sick of having diversity crammed down your throat, but you get all huffy about marching to a drummer other than your own.

I am confused, diversity is bad, but people need to respect the drummer and banner you march under?

Please help me understand what you are upset about.

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 07:31 PM
AA- I think you are having a temper tantrum. Whatever the platitude above means, I have no clue. It is bordering on psycho-babble.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 07:38 PM
AA- I think you are having a temper tantrum. Whatever the platitude above means, I have no clue. It is bordering on psycho-babble.

I'm having a temper tantrum and engaging in psyco-babble for trying to decipher your post?

The conclusion I am drawing from your posts is, you want everyone to assimilate to your culture and if anyone celebrates a culture other than yours, you don't want to see it or hear about it. Because that would be cramming it down your throat.

Is that about right?

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 07:40 PM
Oh God. The PC left is hopeless. Apparently being expected to assimilate into your adopted country is a bad thing now.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-01-2014, 07:52 PM
Oh God. The PC left is hopeless. Apparently being expected to assimilate into your adopted country is a bad thing now.

So I guess I read you posts the right way.

As an Irish American, I guess I'll have to give up eating brisket and soda bread, and no more pints of Guinness for me.

Please tell me, what do I get to eat on Merica Day, is it Kentucky Fried Chicken and Budweiser?

Grow up, and quit being so narrow minded. People other than you, have the right to celebrate their culture, and it isn't hurting you one little bit.

bombsquadron6
03-01-2014, 07:54 PM
Oh dear. AA has put me in the penalty box. I shall hang my head in disgrace.

garhkal
03-02-2014, 03:49 AM
AA- Stop and analyze it and don't be such a reactionary is what you are telling me. Were this an isolated incident I would agree but in case you missed it we constantly have "diversity" crammed down our throats now. Schools do more to promote differences than they do to create a melting pot. Americans who object to all this are "racists." In the past there would have been no need to celebrate 'Merica Day at school but since every other nationality gets to celebrate their heritage on school time it has created a reactionary movement. And frequently the PC school administrators do really inflammatory stuff that just makes it worse. You are free to call me anything you want but I stand by what I said.

Very true. Heck its as bad in the Mil. Don't join in those "Diversity" awareness months, get marked down on your 'equal opportunity'. Ask why there is not a european american month, get hit for being racist.


So, you are sick of having diversity crammed down your throat, but you get all huffy about marching to a drummer other than your own.

I am confused, diversity is bad, but people need to respect the drummer and banner you march under?

Please help me understand what you are upset about.

Its more the fact, that when we also want to celebrate stuff and be included, we get told no you can't cause it offends XYZ. So how is that being diverse, allowing all other groups to celebrate but not us?

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 11:55 AM
Very true. Heck its as bad in the Mil. Don't join in those "Diversity" awareness months, get marked down on your 'equal opportunity'. Ask why there is not a european american month, get hit for being racist.



Its more the fact, that when we also want to celebrate stuff and be included, we get told no you can't cause it offends XYZ. So how is that being diverse, allowing all other groups to celebrate but not us?

Who is us? What kind of stuff are you wanting to celebrate and what institution told you no?

If you are referring to the Colorado story that bombsquadron6 linked to, they were allowed to celebrate. The controversy was about the name of it "Merica Day." After a few squabbles and some protests, school officials let the celebration happen as American Monday.

If Mexican kids celebrating Cinco de Mayo bothers you, do Irish kids celebrating Saint Patrick's Day bother you?

If so or not, I'd be very interested to hear your views on Saint Patrick's Day celebrations in the USA.

Let's throw in Columbus Day also, there are likely a few Italian Americans on the forums that would be interested in hearing what you have to say about Columbus Day.

TJMAC77SP
03-02-2014, 01:21 PM
Who is us? What kind of stuff are you wanting to celebrate and what institution told you no?

If you are referring to the Colorado story that bombsquadron6 linked to, they were allowed to celebrate. The controversy was about the name of it "Merica Day." After a few squabbles and some protests, school officials let the celebration happen as American Monday.

If Mexican kids celebrating Cinco de Mayo bothers you, do Irish kids celebrating Saint Patrick's Day bother you?

If so or not, I'd be very interested to hear your views on Saint Patrick's Day celebrations in the USA.

Let's throw in Columbus Day also, there are likely a few Italian Americans on the forums that would be interested in hearing what you have to say about Columbus Day.

Your points are valid regarding the celebrating of other ethnic holidays but the difference is that on one of those holidays if someone wears a shirt with the US flag on it there would not be an issue. In Boston on March 17 you might get your ass beat for wearing an orange shirt but not a US flag.

Admittedly the intention of the students in CA was to cause an issue of some sort and that is just wrong but the elephant in the room is ..............why would that cause violence (which is what the school officials feared)? Why in California (being a state in the United States) would wearing a shirt with the US flag cause a problem? Why is it necessary that the celebration of another nation's independence be an exclusive event where nothing else is permitted? In order to fully discuss the issue, all sides have to be looked at and considered.

Rainmaker
03-02-2014, 01:50 PM
Who is us? What kind of stuff are you wanting to celebrate and what institution told you no?

If you are referring to the Colorado story that bombsquadron6 linked to, they were allowed to celebrate. The controversy was about the name of it "Merica Day." After a few squabbles and some protests, school officials let the celebration happen as American Monday.

If Mexican kids celebrating Cinco de Mayo bothers you, do Irish kids celebrating Saint Patrick's Day bother you?

If so or not, I'd be very interested to hear your views on Saint Patrick's Day celebrations in the USA.

Let's throw in Columbus Day also, there are likely a few Italian Americans on the forums that would be interested in hearing what you have to say about Columbus Day.

COLUMBUS WAS PORTUGUESE YOU RACIST IRISH BASTARD!!! Jay-suss. Abs. Errbody know John Cabot is the true discoverer of the New world anyway. Italians couldn't find their ass with a search warrant. Only Jewish people could be smart enough to discover anything. It was all probably a Plot by the evil WASPs to divert the Spanish away from India. so Whitey could establish the Slave trade and exploit innocent black people. I thought this was common knowledge in 2012. Nomsayin?

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 02:16 PM
Your points are valid regarding the celebrating of other ethnic holidays but the difference is that on one of those holidays if someone wears a shirt with the US flag on it there would not be an issue. In Boston on March 17 you might get your ass beat for wearing an orange shirt but not a US flag.

Admittedly the intention of the students in CA was to cause an issue of some sort and that is just wrong but the elephant in the room is ..............why would that cause violence (which is what the school officials feared)? Why in California (being a state in the United States) would wearing a shirt with the US flag cause a problem? Why is it necessary that the celebration of another nation's independence be an exclusive event where nothing else is permitted? In order to fully discuss the issue, all sides have to be looked at and considered.

In the spirit of being a dickhead, Cinco de Mayo, is not the Mexican Independence Day, September 16th is the day Mexico celebrates indepence.

According to Wiki, Cinco de Mayo, "originated with Mexican-American communities in the American West as a way to commemorate the cause of freedom and democracy during the first years of the American Civil War,[8][9] and today the date is observed in the United States as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.[10] In the state of Puebla, the date is observed to commemorate the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín."

Now that I have gotten that out of they way, let me try to address your many, "whys?"

The answer is simple, racial tension. The fact that either side is draping themselves in a flag, isn't the core issue. What is at the heart of the matter is racial tension between Mexican kids and White kids.

In my opinion, the school officials panicked and told the white kids to remove their American Flag shirts. I don't think it was the best decision, but I can see why they made it.

They could have threatened to expell anyone who started a fight and disciplined anyone who attempted to incite violence, without bringing flags into it.

But let's face it, how much training in public relations and confrontation management do these school administrators get? I really don't think they get much, because it is common for them to make decisions that turn small issues into PR nightmares.

My main beef with garhkal and bombsquadron6 is their narrative of American Flags are being outlawed and American kids can't show their patriotism is invalid. They are taking hyped sound bites and hyped headlines and exaggerating them further.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 02:23 PM
Rainmaker

Columbus was from Genoa, Italy but sailed under the flag of the Spanish Monarchs during his four voyages to the new world, otherwise, excellent post.

PS

I tried to give you a like, but the system is jacked up.

Rainmaker
03-02-2014, 02:27 PM
But, dieversity is our greatest strength. sing it wiff me now.... over and over and over and over....kumbaya, kumbaya

Rainmaker
03-02-2014, 02:28 PM
But, stop fighting. dieversity is our greatest strength. sing it wiff me now.... over and over and over and over....kumbaya, kumbaya

Rainmaker
03-02-2014, 02:36 PM
@abs...Rainmaker try to reply too and got cryptic 404 error and had a double post he can't delete.It's obvious to Rainmaker now wiff all the 404 errors that this site has been hacked by the feds and that they are trying to shut down the free flow of information from us Patriots.... Rainmaker gots to go to his bugout location now. It time to execute his bug out plan. the Shit may be Hitting the Fan any minute. Strength and Honor mah peeps. Rainmaker out.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 03:01 PM
@abs...Rainmaker try to reply too and got cryptic 404 error and had a double post he can't delete.It's obvious to Rainmaker now wiff all the 404 errors that this site has been hacked by the feds and that they are trying to shut down the free flow of information from us Patriots.... Rainmaker gots to go to his bugout location now. It time to execute his bug out plan. the Shit may be Hitting the Fan any minute. Strength and Honor mah peeps. Rainmaker out.

LOL! Bugout location:)

Are you some kind of streetwise urban Doomsday Prepper?

My sister is into that and has her basement stocked with those emergency rations they used to sell on the old Glen Beck Show. She is like a high school girl with a crush when it comes to Glen Beck, and is also convinced of a war on American patriotism.

TJMAC77SP
03-02-2014, 04:09 PM
In the spirit of being a dickhead, Cinco de Mayo, is not the Mexican Independence Day, September 16th is the day Mexico celebrates indepence.

According to Wiki, Cinco de Mayo, "originated with Mexican-American communities in the American West as a way to commemorate the cause of freedom and democracy during the first years of the American Civil War,[8][9] and today the date is observed in the United States as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.[10] In the state of Puebla, the date is observed to commemorate the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín."

Now that I have gotten that out of they way, let me try to address your many, "whys?"

The answer is simple, racial tension. The fact that either side is draping themselves in a flag, isn't the core issue. What is at the heart of the matter is racial tension between Mexican kids and White kids.

In my opinion, the school officials panicked and told the white kids to remove their American Flag shirts. I don't think it was the best decision, but I can see why they made it.

They could have threatened to expell anyone who started a fight and disciplined anyone who attempted to incite violence, without bringing flags into it.

But let's face it, how much training in public relations and confrontation management do these school administrators get? I really don't think they get much, because it is common for them to make decisions that turn small issues into PR nightmares.

My main beef with garhkal and bombsquadron6 is their narrative of American Flags are being outlawed and American kids can't show their patriotism is invalid. They are taking hyped sound bites and hyped headlines and exaggerating them further.

Thank you for the clarification. All these years and I had the reason for Cinco de Mayo wrong.

You really didn't answer the real root question. Why the racial tension? Why there and then when no one thinks such steps necessary during those other ethnic related holidays you cited? The ruling seems to single out one side of the situation when obviously when you answer the real question, blame is on both sides.

There is another question I have never seen answered in the articles or here. Were all flags banned or just the US flag?

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 04:37 PM
Thank you for the clarification. All these years and I had the reason for Cinco de Mayo wrong.

You really didn't answer the real root question. Why the racial tension? Why there and then when no one thinks such steps necessary during those other ethnic related holidays you cited? The ruling seems to single out one side of the situation when obviously when you answer the real question, blame is on both sides.

There is another question I have never seen answered in the articles or here. Were all flags banned or just the US flag?

Are you asking why racial tension exists in general or why it exists in this one instance?

If you are referring to this particular instance, it is my contention that racial tension was already present.

Some white kids showed up one year and started shouting USA at the Cinco de Mayo celebrators and hung a flag in a tree.

The next year, they show up in American Flag shirts and school officials react by telling them to remove the shirts or go home.

I doubt they had Mexican flags removed, but I don't know.

I conceded that the school officials didn't handle this the best way.

What I will not concede is that this incident is an example of a national trend to discourage patriotism or a war on white people.

I know that garhkal and bombsquadron6 see it that way, and I am beginning to suspect you see it that way.

You say it is obvious that the blame is on both sides. Why?

When you were an SP, if you got dispatched to a picnic area and a group of party goers was being confronted by a second group that just showed to disrupt the party, who would you separate?

Who would you tell to go somewhere else and to stop causing trouble?

I don't get why you are trying to turn the white kids into victims.

EDIT: The court ruling was about if the school violated the the civil rights of the American Flag kids; the court wasn't concerned with punishing the kids.

The court was concerned if the school acted in a reasonable manner in ordering the kids to remove their shirts.

garhkal
03-02-2014, 07:01 PM
Who is us? What kind of stuff are you wanting to celebrate and what institution told you no?

If you are referring to the Colorado story that bombsquadron6 linked to, they were allowed to celebrate. The controversy was about the name of it "Merica Day." After a few squabbles and some protests, school officials let the celebration happen as American Monday.

While i was active duty, i inquired several times as to why there was no European american heritage month. The powers that be which ran the heritage group on base were the ones shooting it down.

TJMAC77SP
03-02-2014, 07:44 PM
Are you asking why racial tension exists in general or why it exists in this one instance?

If you are referring to this particular instance, it is my contention that racial tension was already present.

Some white kids showed up one year and started shouting USA at the Cinco de Mayo celebrators and hung a flag in a tree.

The next year, they show up in American Flag shirts and school officials react by telling them to remove the shirts or go home.

I doubt they had Mexican flags removed, but I don't know.

I conceded that the school officials didn't handle this the best way.

What I will not concede is that this incident is an example of a national trend to discourage patriotism or a war on white people.

I know that garhkal and bombsquadron6 see it that way, and I am beginning to suspect you see it that way.

You say it is obvious that the blame is on both sides. Why?

When you were an SP, if you got dispatched to a picnic area and a group of party goers was being confronted by a second group that just showed to disrupt the party, who would you separate?

Who would you tell to go somewhere else and to stop causing trouble?

I don't get why you are trying to turn the white kids into victims.

EDIT: The court ruling was about if the school violated the the civil rights of the American Flag kids; the court wasn't concerned with punishing the kids.

The court was concerned if the school acted in a reasonable manner in ordering the kids to remove their shirts.

To answer you question, I would separate both parties and eject the one who didn't belong. Unfortunately your analogy breaks down there since all parties involved in the court case were going to a school they all belonged in.

You can attempt to paint my posts anyway you want and link me with whomever you wish but I am also suspecting that you understand exactly what I am asking but are refusing to answer it.

How exactly am I "trying to turn the white kids into victims." I specifically stated more than once that I think the non-Mexican (I have no definitive information that there weren't anyone other than white kids present but find it a bit revealing that you make that assumption) kids were attempting to disrupt the Cinco de Mayo celebration. Why is looking for the entire truth trying to support one side over the other. I actually think you are doing exactly that.

Why, when the kids show up with the US flags is there a fear of violence? Is it because those same kids will attack the Mexican students? Is it akin to the attacks in Greensboro NC in 1979? Is that what was feared?

If I wore a t shirt with the Irish tricolor into the north end of Boston on the feast of St Anthony I might catch a few insults but I would be pretty sure not to be physically attacked.

Imagine this scenario. The Mexican students show up on the 5th of May with the Mexican flags and tshirts and the non-Mexican kids show up with their US flags and tshirts and each ignore each other and go to class. Imagine that...........................

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 08:19 PM
While i was active duty, i inquired several times as to why there was no European american heritage month. The powers that be which ran the heritage group on base were the ones shooting it down.

The Heritage Group?

What wing office are they under? Did you just ask a question of them or did you submit a proposal?

I would be interested to hear what you proposed a European American Heritage Month would consist of.

Would you do France one day and Portugal the next? I guess you could do Germany and Austria in the same day and you could probably leave out Switzerland, since they like to be neutral and stay on the sidelines.

The Balkans would be a lot of fun, you could do a hodgepodge celebration there and possibly celebrate the Romani people (Gypsies) as you hit every country they have populations in.

And Turkey, don't forget Turkey because, technically, part of it is in Europe. You could probably do a Punch & Judy type puppet show to depict Turkish and Greek rivalry over Cyprus.

Then you could swing on over to Spain and then up into Ireland, don't forget to mention the Black Irish, and of course the Irish Gypsies. You can do another Punch & Judy puppet show for Northern Ireland as you transition into the UK.

Whew! What a whirlwind month! I could use a drink, we could pop over to Iceland for that, and then push into the Scandinavian countries and then circle the Baltic coast hitting Poland, where we could do the Gypsies again, now, they might be a little too dark for your tastes, but I'd like to cover them anyway.

We haven't done any Slavic countries yet, so we'd better get to them even though most of them used to be commies.

Wow! European American Heritage Month is a lot of work, no wonder you were pissed when the Base Heritage Group shot your proposal down.

I bet if you included African Europeans, they would have said yes. What cha think?

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 08:29 PM
To answer you question, I would separate both parties and eject the one who didn't belong. Unfortunately your analogy breaks down there since all parties involved in the court case were going to a school they all belonged in.

You can attempt to paint my posts anyway you want and link me with whomever you wish but I am also suspecting that you understand exactly what I am asking but are refusing to answer it.

How exactly am I "trying to turn the white kids into victims." I specifically stated more than once that I think the non-Mexican (I have no definitive information that there weren't anyone other than white kids present but find it a bit revealing that you make that assumption) kids were attempting to disrupt the Cinco de Mayo celebration. Why is looking for the entire truth trying to support one side over the other. I actually think you are doing exactly that.

Why, when the kids show up with the US flags is there a fear of violence? Is it because those same kids will attack the Mexican students? Is it akin to the attacks in Greensboro NC in 1979? Is that what was feared?

If I wore a t shirt with the Irish tricolor into the north end of Boston on the feast of St Anthony I might catch a few insults but I would be pretty sure not to be physically attacked.

Imagine this scenario. The Mexican students show up on the 5th of May with the Mexican flags and tshirts and the non-Mexican kids show up with their US flags and tshirts and each ignore each other and go to class. Imagine that...........................

I still don't get what your beef is over this. Because the Mexican kids kept their flag?

The court ruling only focused on what the school administrators did.

imported_AFKILO7
03-02-2014, 10:22 PM
It is refreshing to see that nothing has changed on the MTF...just the name(s) of those involved.

TJMAC77SP
03-02-2014, 10:49 PM
I still don't get what your beef is over this. Because the Mexican kids kept their flag?

The court ruling only focused on what the school administrators did.

All my posts and the only thing you get from it is the Mexican kids kept their flag..................which is an unanswered question I have asked. Do you have definitive information on that 'fact'?

Absinthe Anecdote
03-02-2014, 10:59 PM
All my posts and the only thing you get from it is the Mexican kids kept their flag..................which is an unanswered question I have asked. Do you have definitive information on that 'fact'?

I don't know if the Mexican kids kept their flag or not.

I still don't know what your position is on this as you are being rather serpentine about it. You seem to think the American Flag kids were wronged in some way.

Why don't you just tell me?

TJMAC77SP
03-03-2014, 03:04 AM
I don't know if the Mexican kids kept their flag or not.

I still don't know what your position is on this as you are being rather serpentine about it. You seem to think the American Flag kids were wronged in some way.

Why don't you just tell me?

I have been very clear. Clear if you have read my posts and not read into my posts. I suspect that is what is going on here since you have accused me of making the non-Mexican students out to be victims and more than one of my posts states exactly the opposite of that.

I will admit to being confused by your posts. Didn't you state.........".... Because the Mexican kids kept their flag?"

garhkal
03-03-2014, 05:06 AM
The Heritage Group?

What wing office are they under? Did you just ask a question of them or did you submit a proposal?

I would be interested to hear what you proposed a European American Heritage Month would consist of.

Would you do France one day and Portugal the next? I guess you could do Germany and Austria in the same day and you could probably leave out Switzerland, since they like to be neutral and stay on the sidelines.

The Balkans would be a lot of fun, you could do a hodgepodge celebration there and possibly celebrate the Romani people (Gypsies) as you hit every country they have populations in.

And Turkey, don't forget Turkey because, technically, part of it is in Europe. You could probably do a Punch & Judy type puppet show to depict Turkish and Greek rivalry over Cyprus.

Then you could swing on over to Spain and then up into Ireland, don't forget to mention the Black Irish, and of course the Irish Gypsies. You can do another Punch & Judy puppet show for Northern Ireland as you transition into the UK.

Whew! What a whirlwind month! I could use a drink, we could pop over to Iceland for that, and then push into the Scandinavian countries and then circle the Baltic coast hitting Poland, where we could do the Gypsies again, now, they might be a little too dark for your tastes, but I'd like to cover them anyway.

We haven't done any Slavic countries yet, so we'd better get to them even though most of them used to be commies.

Wow! European American Heritage Month is a lot of work, no wonder you were pissed when the Base Heritage Group shot your proposal down.

I bet if you included African Europeans, they would have said yes. What cha think?

Being navy we had an actual org that ran heritage functions (though admittedly it was supposed to be a collateral duty, many ran it as their primary job).. Once i did submit a proper proposal (1 wk for the norwegian area, 1 for germanic, one for italy/spain/greece, and one for england-france is what i proposed. Got a curt letter back saying that celebrating any white group would not go down well with something supposed to 'diversify things'..
The other times it was just me asking.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-03-2014, 09:43 AM
I have been very clear. Clear if you have read my posts and not read into my posts. I suspect that is what is going on here since you have accused me of making the non-Mexican students out to be victims and more than one of my posts states exactly the opposite of that.

I will admit to being confused by your posts. Didn't you state.........".... Because the Mexican kids kept their flag?"

That little curly symbol, that I highlighted in red, is a question mark. I was asking if you were bothered by the seeming lack of any action taken by school officials toward the Mexican kids.




If I wore a t shirt with the Irish tricolor into the north end of Boston on the feast of St Anthony I might catch a few insults but I would be pretty sure not to be physically attacked.

Imagine this scenario. The Mexican students show up on the 5th of May with the Mexican flags and tshirts and the non-Mexican kids show up with their US flags and tshirts and each ignore each other and go to class. Imagine that...........................

All I can draw from statements like this, is that you apparently think Mexicans are inherently violent because Italians probably won't attack you. Sounds wacky when I put it that way, but that is the essence of what you said.

You are intelligent enough to not to rush into a trap and reveal your prejudices like a couple of others have done; hence, all the serpentine posting.

But I got you to stumble into a trap, and your Irish guy at the Feast of Saint Anthony is proof.

I don't think you are a bigot, but you are struggling with your biases and prejudices on this issue and not overcoming them.

I got news for you pal, we all have prejudices and biases. Even if you are an enlightened person, it can be a constant struggle to step outside them and to be objective.

You are coming up short on this one and when Rusty Jones checks this thread he will confirm it. :)

Absinthe Anecdote
03-03-2014, 09:53 AM
Being navy we had an actual org that ran heritage functions (though admittedly it was supposed to be a collateral duty, many ran it as their primary job).. Once i did submit a proper proposal (1 wk for the norwegian area, 1 for germanic, one for italy/spain/greece, and one for england-france is what i proposed. Got a curt letter back saying that celebrating any white group would not go down well with something supposed to 'diversify things'..
The other times it was just me asking.

I'll be straight with you, I have serious doubts that you made a proposal and received such a letter.

My little flippant ramble about Punch & Judy puppet shows to depict Greek and Turkish rivalry should have been a big clue.

I'll save you the trouble of telling me to go fuck myself, and just go do it on my own. ;)

Rusty Jones
03-03-2014, 02:50 PM
Being navy we had an actual org that ran heritage functions (though admittedly it was supposed to be a collateral duty, many ran it as their primary job).. Once i did submit a proper proposal (1 wk for the norwegian area, 1 for germanic, one for italy/spain/greece, and one for england-france is what i proposed. Got a curt letter back saying that celebrating any white group would not go down well with something supposed to 'diversify things'..
The other times it was just me asking.

I'll play along with this.

First, I say that if this happened, this is similar to crashing Cince De Mayo with American Flag t-shirts. It's less about genuine desire to have one's own thing, and more about the desire to protest against others having theirs.

Second, your knowledge of European ethnic groups appears to be lacking. Let's break this down:

1. One week for "Norwegian area." Do you mean Scandinavia? Why do THEY get a whole week? How many Norwegian, Swedish, Icelandic, and Danish Americans do you know? My ex-wife was part Danish, and outside of her family - I can count the number of people I met claiming these nationalities one ONE hand.

2. One week for Germanic. This makes one week for "Norwegian area" make even LESS sense, since Scandinavians ARE Germanic.

3. One week for Italy/Spain/Greece. One of these nationalities is not like the other; one of these nationalities just doesn't belong - and that's Greece. They remain the only Hellenic country in existence today.

4. One week for England-France. Other than being Indo-European, these countries aren't related. England belongs with the Germanic group, and France belongs with Italy and Spain.

With ALL of this being said... I hope you now understand why I believe that, if your story isn't bullshit, that your proposal wasn't genuine. It was a protest.

TJMAC77SP
03-03-2014, 05:49 PM
That little curly symbol, that I highlighted in red, is a question mark. I was asking if you were bothered by the seeming lack of any action taken by school officials toward the Mexican kids.




All I can draw from statements like this, is that you apparently think Mexicans are inherently violent because Italians probably won't attack you. Sounds wacky when I put it that way, but that is the essence of what you said.

You are intelligent enough to not to rush into a trap and reveal your prejudices like a couple of others have done; hence, all the serpentine posting.

But I got you to stumble into a trap, and your Irish guy at the Feast of Saint Anthony is proof.

I don't think you are a bigot, but you are struggling with your biases and prejudices on this issue and not overcoming them.

I got news for you pal, we all have prejudices and biases. Even if you are an enlightened person, it can be a constant struggle to step outside them and to be objective.

You are coming up short on this one and when Rusty Jones checks this thread he will confirm it. :)

That smell I used to get with JoeB is back. The smell of desperation mixed with sarcastic attempts at disparaging humor.

Your question says you assumed the Mexican students were allowed to keep their flags. This is not a fact as I know it. If you do, please confirm. If you don't do you think it right to ban one group from displaying flags and not the other? And yes I do. It would be equally wrong to ban the Mexican flag and not the US flag (in this instance).

Please explain the trap I fell into because all I see is my countering your logically flawed comparison of other ethnic celebrations (it was you that brought them into the discussion). I really would like an explanation of that. Try to keep it under 500 words though.

You may think you are enlightened and more than likely more enlightened than most, certainly me but your naivety shows through in your posts. I ask simple questions which by the way have yet to be answered. You can attempt to put words in my mouth and to state my thoughts and beliefs but in fact you fail in most attempts to do so.

And pal, a reading of my posts will certainly reveal that I already believe that we all struggle with prejudices and bias. The difference between us is that I believe that holds true for all people and all groups and that none are blameless.

Finally, to have Rusty confirm anything involving a rational and unbiased discussion is pretty funny. His integrity and credibility (or more accurately lack of) is a proven fact on the MTF. I realize you were pretty certain he would agree with you but pardon me for not giving that any weight.

garhkal
03-03-2014, 06:56 PM
With ALL of this being said... I hope you now understand why I believe that, if your story isn't bullshit, that your proposal wasn't genuine. It was a protest.

So what if it was done in 'protest'. That it was shot down so quickly and flippantly (IMO) shows that the powers that be only care about 'inclusive diversity' when it means "other than whites!"..

Absinthe Anecdote
03-03-2014, 06:59 PM
That smell I used to get with JoeB is back. The smell of desperation mixed with sarcastic attempts at disparaging humor.


Now I understand why JoeB and PYB used to get so frustrated with you. You go back on your previous comments and flip flop at will.


Your question says you assumed the Mexican students were allowed to keep their flags. This is not a fact as I know it. If you do, please confirm. If you don't do you think it right to ban one group from displaying flags and not the other? And yes I do. It would be equally wrong to ban the Mexican flag and not the US flag (in this instance).


Talk about desperation, you are so wrapped up over this one aspect, it isn't even central to the court ruling on how the school officials acted.


Please explain the trap I fell into because all I see is my countering your logically flawed comparison of other ethnic celebrations (it was you that brought them into the discussion). I really would like an explanation of that. Try to keep it under 500 words though.

On page 5 of this thread, you called my comparison valid. Flip flop anyone?

Besides, I only asked bombsquadron6 if he gets upset over Saint Patricks Day or Columbus Day. It wasn't really a comparison.

The trap you stumbled into was implying that Mexicans are violent by comparing them to Italians who would tolerate a guy in an Irish Flag shirt.

It clearly showed your bias toward Mexicans.


You may think you are enlightened and more than likely more enlightened than most, certainly me but your naivety shows through in your posts. I ask simple questions which by the way have yet to be answered. You can attempt to put words in my mouth and to state my thoughts and beliefs but in fact you fail in most attempts to do so.


You most certainly have not asked a simple and direct question. You keep referring to an unanswered question and I keep asking what it is.

Either you have accomplished a masterful troll or you are just being silly. Not that I have anything against being silly, especially when the intent is to be silly.

You don't seem to have much of a sense of humor, so I'm going to jump to the conclusion that you are grasping for straws after being thoroughly trounced by my sterling logic and rapier wit.


And pal, a reading of my posts will certainly reveal that I already believe that we all struggle with prejudices and bias. The difference between us is that I believe that holds true for all people and all groups and that none are blameless.


Agreed, now admit that your biases are getting in your way to see clearly on this.


Finally, to have Rusty confirm anything involving a rational and unbiased discussion is pretty funny. His integrity and credibility (or more accurately lack of) is a proven fact on the MTF. I realize you were pretty certain he would agree with you but pardon me for not giving that any weight.

Rusty, PYB, JoeB, Bunch, plus anyone else who routinely gets the better of you in these little squabbles, is probably laughing that the little smiley face wasn't enough to clue you in to my irreverent remark about Rusty.

TJMAC77SP
03-03-2014, 07:29 PM
Now I understand why JoeB and PYB used to get so frustrated with you. You go back on your previous comments and flip flop at will.



Talk about desperation, you are so wrapped up over this one aspect, it isn't even central to the court ruling on how the school officials acted.



On page 5 of this thread, you called my comparison valid. Flip flop anyone?

Besides, I only asked bombsquadron6 if he gets upset over Saint Patricks Day or Columbus Day. It wasn't really a comparison.

The trap you stumbled into was implying that Mexicans are violent by comparing them to Italians who would tolerate a guy in an Irish Flag shirt.

It clearly showed your bias toward Mexicans.



You most certainly have not asked a simple and direct question. You keep referring to an unanswered question and I keep asking what it is.

Either you have accomplished a masterful troll or you are just being silly. Not that I have anything against being silly, especially when the intent is to be silly.

You don't seem to have much of a sense of humor, so I'm going to jump to the conclusion that you are grasping for straws after being thoroughly trounced by my sterling logic and rapier wit.



Agreed, now admit that your biases are getting in your way to see clearly on this.



Rusty, PYB, JoeB, Bunch, plus anyone else who routinely gets the better of you in these little squabbles, is probably laughing that the little smiley face wasn't enough to clue you in to my irreverent remark about Rusty.

You are correct in assuming I missed your smiley face............

I wasn't aware that every post in a thread had to be focused laser-like on the thread title. I was under the impression that responding to posts and their content was ok.

I do however understand why and have always understood why JoeB and PYB were frustrated with me but we both know it wasn't because they got the better of me.

As to flip flopping the point of bringing them up was valid (and I stated as such) but that is far as the logic goes. You conveniently left out the rest of my comment. Let me repeat it here…..

“….the difference is that on one of those holidays if someone wears a shirt with the US flag on it there would not be an issue. In Boston on March 17 you might get your ass beat for wearing an orange shirt but not a US flag.”

Although I am convinced completely that you know exactly what question I have asked I will repeat it (again). It was in the same post as the one you cited as my agreeing with your mentioning St Patrick’s Day and Columbus Day so I am puzzled as to why you don’t remember it.

“….Admittedly the intention of the students in CA was to cause an issue of some sort and that is just wrong but the elephant in the room is ..............why would that cause violence (which is what the school officials feared)? Why in California (being a state in the United States) would wearing a shirt with the US flag cause a problem? Why is it necessary that the celebration of another nation's independence be an exclusive event where nothing else is permitted? In order to fully discuss the issue, all sides have to be looked at and considered.”

I have read a lot of your posts and although many are a little too wordy they often present a pretty balanced view. It is when you defend a dubious position where you abandon the reason and resort to the attempts at disparaging humor. Which is ok because I actually do have a sense of humor. This is where you channel JoeB. Fortunately you don’t channel PYB because you have yet to resort to calling me a fascist, child molester or rapist. Or were those instances where you thing PYB ‘bested’ me?

Let’s just state things clearly so I don’t get accused of being ‘serpentine’. I thought I had been clear but I will try again.

We have a situation where some non-Mexican students (not necessarily all white as you stated and don’t you see how that in itself shines a light on your thought process?) who took exception to the Cinco de Mayo celebrations at their school. They were going to counter-celebrate with US flags. Admittedly a potential provocation (as I have stated more than once). So there we have the first party in the situation. We both know they are of a different nature then celebrations of St Patrick’s Day or Columbus Day but whatever. In any case the school leadership felt there would be problems if this were allowed to happen so they banned the US flags. Don’t you feel they felt this based on demonstrated behavior? In other words, as you have stated there was on-going racial tension. As much as you and others would like to paint it otherwise this involves behavior from both parties. Both side so to speak. We both know deep down that is exactly what I have been saying all along. The big elephant in the room is that there are two parties to this case, both with the potential for inappropriate behavior.

Speaking of wordy responses………….

Absinthe Anecdote
03-03-2014, 11:01 PM
“….Admittedly the intention of the students in CA was to cause an issue of some sort and that is just wrong but the elephant in the room is ..............why would that cause violence (which is what the school officials feared)? Why in California (being a state in the United States) would wearing a shirt with the US flag cause a problem? Why is it necessary that the celebration of another nation's independence be an exclusive event where nothing else is permitted? In order to fully discuss the issue, all sides have to be looked at and considered.”



If a group of people are out to start trouble, they can take any symbol or word and turn it into something offensive.

I don't think that incident was really about flags or patriotism. There is certainly an element of racial tension involved, but at its core, it was one group of high school kids trying to fuck with another group of kids. They happened to use a flag to do it and the school administrators got themselves into a jam by taking the bait.

The smart move would have been for the school administrators just to have told the guys shouting USA to stop trying to pick a fight and if they didn't listen, send them home for the day. They shouldn't have said jack shit about flags, but they did.

The next thing you know lawyers are suing the school district and knuckleheads from the conservative media are spinning this as out-of-control liberalism.

As for the last part of your question:

Why would you want to celebrate something else at a Cinco de Mayo party? I have no idea why you are even asking me that.

That is about as wacky as @garkal's "Norwegian Area" celebration to be immediately followed by a Germanic Area celebration.

On second thought, I might do some wacky mash up party this Saint Patrick's Day. I'll combine it with Kwanzaa and make all my guests wear green dashikis. I'll serve corned beef and cabbage with sadza on the side.

You wanna come?

TJMAC77SP
03-04-2014, 03:45 AM
If a group of people are out to start trouble, they can take any symbol or word and turn it into something offensive.

I don't think that incident was really about flags or patriotism. There is certainly an element of racial tension involved, but at its core, it was one group of high school kids trying to fuck with another group of kids. They happened to use a flag to do it and the school administrators got themselves into a jam by taking the bait.

The smart move would have been for the school administrators just to have told the guys shouting USA to stop trying to pick a fight and if they didn't listen, send them home for the day. They shouldn't have said jack shit about flags, but they did.

The next thing you know lawyers are suing the school district and knuckleheads from the conservative media are spinning this as out-of-control liberalism.

As for the last part of your question:

Why would you want to celebrate something else at a Cinco de Mayo party? I have no idea why you are even asking me that.

That is about as wacky as @garkal's "Norwegian Area" celebration to be immediately followed by a Germanic Area celebration.

On second thought, I might do some wacky mash up party this Saint Patrick's Day. I'll combine it with Kwanzaa and make all my guests wear green dashikis. I'll serve corned beef and cabbage with sadza on the side.

You wanna come?

Well, that really didn't address anything but ok

As for your party, what do you think the chances are anyone will start trouble?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-04-2014, 11:26 AM
Actually, according to 4 U.S.C. Chapter 1, NO ONE is supposed to wear the American flag. It's rarely, if ever, enforced. Looks like someone finally did it.

I actually agree with you on this one. As dumb of a ruling as this was, wearing the flag on clothing is disrespectful.

Burning the flag is covered under "free speech". Wearing the flag, well that is unacceptable because some one proned to violence may do you harm which would be your fault for their actions. Wonder if rednecks started shooting or beating the crap out of those that burn the flag, would the "free speech" argument go out the window?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-04-2014, 11:31 AM
Just like the Cinco De Mayo incident, he's probably leaving out the details. When a bunch of dudes with American flag t-shirts crash a Cinco De Mayo party with mostly Mexican Americans, they know what they're doing. The American flag itself - nor the chanting of "USA" itself is the problem. It's the unstated intentions behind it. And because the intentions are unstated, the people subjected to their bullshit are made to look like the bad guys when they speak up.

"Crashed" a party as in, wore it to school? They had threats of violence all day when they went to school. That is the context.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-04-2014, 11:46 AM
Well, that really didn't address anything but ok

As for your party, what do you think the chances are anyone will start trouble?

I answered your questions; I get the impression that if I don't say what you want to hear, you don't consider it a response.

Discourse doesn't work that way, and you'll continue to be frustrated if you keep expecting me to admit that this story is an example of anti-Americanism.

There are people in the media trying to portray it that way to support a long-running political narrative; not me, I see it as described in my previous post.

You're still invited to my party and you'll be perfectly safe, as long as you don't drink too much.

However, I think you might be happier at garkhal's "Norwegian Area" party. You guys can down a few shots of Aquavit and lament about how the USA is going to hell in a hand basket. Oh, he might not know what Aquavit is, so you might want to bring a bottle unless you are okay with Budweiser.

I wouldn't expect him to serve any pickled herring either, expect a bucket of KFC.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-04-2014, 12:22 PM
This California case is a symptom of liberalism run amok. It comes on the heels of a situation in Fort Collins, Colorado where the kids at a local high school tried to have "America Day" but were prevented by the administration. We now have an education system where everyone is allowed to celebrate their national heritage except American kids, who are labeled racist if they try. As for the Hispanic kids who participated in the Cinco de Mayo celebration at the California school, they showed more loyalty to Mexico than they did to the U.S. but we are supposed to be "tolerant." Well, include me out. I am fed up with this nonsense. The California school should have told everyone that the Cinco de Mayo celebration was fine but not on school time. The federal courts just make things worse with inane rulings that hold the kids wearing American flags accountable but not the kids celebrating a Mexican holiday during school hours. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/02/04/fort-collins-high-school-rethinking-banning-merica-day/

What I find funny is that cinco de mayo is an American holiday just like St Patty's day where we "celebrate" another culture with drinking. Cinco de Mayo was like our "Shot heard around the world" that led up to the revolution, not the actual independence day.
Do you think it might have something to do with getting upset over half way reading a bunch of hype?

Slow your roll, and try analyzing a little of the story instead of reacting to headlines.

Isnt that like how people reacted to the latest law being passed in AZ? The media labeled it as anti-homosexual when it had nothing them?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-04-2014, 12:25 PM
Considering we are a country of primarily immigrants, I don't really find that surprising. Unless, you are Native American, but then you'd have another axe to grind.
Just to be fair, what country isnt primarily immigrants?

TJMAC77SP
03-04-2014, 12:32 PM
I answered your questions; I get the impression that if I don't say what you want to hear, you don't consider it a response.

Discourse doesn't work that way, and you'll continue to be frustrated if you keep expecting me to admit that this story is an example of anti-Americanism.

There are people in the media trying to portray it that way to support a long-running political narrative; not me, I see it as described in my previous post.

You're still invited to my party and you'll be perfectly safe, as long as you don't drink too much.

However, I think you might be happier at garkhal's "Norwegian Area" party. You guys can down a few shots of Aquavit and lament about how the USA is going to hell in a hand basket. Oh, he might not know what Aquavit is, so you might want to bring a bottle unless you are okay with Budweiser.

I wouldn't expect him to serve any pickled herring either, expect a bucket of KFC.

I thought it was you that was frustrated. If your last post was supposed to answer my questions so be it. I read it as another explanation of the court's ruling which I really wasn't discussing.

The attempt to lump me in with others is quite transparent I just see it as another light on your agenda..............they were all white kids with the US flag?

Can I wear a tshirt with a US flag to your party. I tend not to over drink these days, it just puts me to sleep.

I am sure Garkhal can use Google as well as the rest of us.

socal1200r
03-05-2014, 02:38 PM
Last I checked, this is America, not Mexico, so those students should've been free to wear their American flag shirts. If the Mexican students wanted to celebrate Cinco de Mayo so badly, go to Mexico and do it, because it's a Mexican holiday, not an American one. This political correctness of school administrators has gone WAY overboard. If I were a school principal, the students would wear uniforms, and the only "flair" I'd allow on their uniforms would be school pins/patches, state pins/patches, or a US flag/patch. No rainbow pins, breast cancer awareness pink ribbons, or any other pet project. Done, now get back to class...

sandsjames
03-05-2014, 03:51 PM
I thought it was you that was frustrated. If your last post was supposed to answer my questions so be it. I read it as another explanation of the court's ruling which I really wasn't discussing.

The attempt to lump me in with others is quite transparent I just see it as another light on your agenda..............they were all white kids with the US flag?

Can I wear a tshirt with a US flag to your party. I tend not to over drink these days, it just puts me to sleep.

I am sure Garkhal can use Google as well as the rest of us.

I'm sure you would be fine if you'd worn a Maple Leaf or Union Jack.

sandsjames
03-05-2014, 03:52 PM
Last I checked, this is America, not Mexico, so those students should've been free to wear their American flag shirts. If the Mexican students wanted to celebrate Cinco de Mayo so badly, go to Mexico and do it, because it's a Mexican holiday, not an American one. This political correctness of school administrators has gone WAY overboard. If I were a school principal, the students would wear uniforms, and the only "flair" I'd allow on their uniforms would be school pins/patches, state pins/patches, or a US flag/patch. No rainbow pins, breast cancer awareness pink ribbons, or any other pet project. Done, now get back to class...

Do you read anyone else's posts? If so, your comment about it being a Mexican holiday may have been omitted.

TJMAC77SP
03-05-2014, 06:23 PM
I'm sure you would be fine if you'd worn a Maple Leaf or Union Jack.

not sure I follow

TJMAC77SP
03-05-2014, 06:26 PM
Last I checked, this is America, not Mexico, so those students should've been free to wear their American flag shirts. If the Mexican students wanted to celebrate Cinco de Mayo so badly, go to Mexico and do it, because it's a Mexican holiday, not an American one. This political correctness of school administrators has gone WAY overboard. If I were a school principal, the students would wear uniforms, and the only "flair" I'd allow on their uniforms would be school pins/patches, state pins/patches, or a US flag/patch. No rainbow pins, breast cancer awareness pink ribbons, or any other pet project. Done, now get back to class...

There is no real issue with celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Hell, around here its a huge excuse to party. I have seen black people wearing Kiss Me I'm Irish buttons on St Patrick's Day (and getting kissed). That isn't the issue. The issue is fairness, equal application of policy and the direct addressing of bad behavior....period.

sandsjames
03-05-2014, 06:39 PM
not sure I follow

Was stating that there would have been no issue is someone wore a Canadian or British flag on their shirt. I'm sure they would have been allowed to keep wearing them but for some reason the American flag, in the United States, was deemed a problem.

TJMAC77SP
03-05-2014, 06:55 PM
Was stating that there would have been no issue is someone wore a Canadian or British flag on their shirt. I'm sure they would have been allowed to keep wearing them but for some reason the American flag, in the United States, was deemed a problem.

Oh, ok, sorry, a little foggy today.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-06-2014, 05:43 AM
There is no real issue with celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Hell, around here its a huge excuse to party. I have seen black people wearing Kiss Me I'm Irish buttons on St Patrick's Day (and getting kissed). That isn't the issue. The issue is fairness, equal application of policy and the direct addressing of bad behavior....period.

Why didn't you say that 5 pages ago?

Maybe I finally understand what you were talking about and how you are looking at this issue.

I'm not looking at it that way and neither was the court.

From the perspective of the court that heard this case, it wasn't about fairness or the equal application of policy. They looked at it from the perspective of if the school officials violated the student's civil right of free speech, and if they acted in a reasonable manner to avoid violence. They weren't even concerned with, "Why didn't they take the Mexican flags away?" That was not a aspect of the lawsuit and so, not a concern of the court.

You can ponder that question all you want, but school districts any never going to be uniform in how they handle such matters. How many many school systems do we have in this country? It has to be an enormous number, and I'm never surprised when I hear a story about a principal doing something dumb or unfair. You are being delusional if you think they are going to make the right call every time.

I don't automatically see this as an example of a war on patriotism either. The people buying into that are the same people that buy into the war on Christmas. The media takes isolated incidents and tries to spin them into a theme. It is hype and rhetoric that is being used to support a political narrative... period.

And you guys are falling for it... double-secret-period.

TJMAC77SP
03-06-2014, 11:40 AM
Why didn't you say that 5 pages ago?

Maybe I finally understand what you were talking about and how you are looking at this issue.

I'm not looking at it that way and neither was the court.

From the perspective of the court that heard this case, it wasn't about fairness or the equal application of policy. They looked at it from the perspective of if the school officials violated the student's civil right of free speech, and if they acted in a reasonable manner to avoid violence. They weren't even concerned with, "Why didn't they take the Mexican flags away?" That was not a aspect of the lawsuit and so, not a concern of the court.

You can ponder that question all you want, but school districts any never going to be uniform in how they handle such matters. How many many school systems do we have in this country? It has to be an enormous number, and I'm never surprised when I hear a story about a principal doing something dumb or unfair. You are being delusional if you think they are going to make the right call every time.

I don't automatically see this as an example of a war on patriotism either. The people buying into that are the same people that buy into the war on Christmas. The media takes isolated incidents and tries to spin them into a theme. It is hype and rhetoric that is being used to support a political narrative... period.

And you guys are falling for it... double-secret-period.

I repeat MY posts were not about the validity of the court's decision. Again, not aware of the requirement to laser-focus posts. I will keep that in mind. I asked questions which I feel were relevant and still not answered on this forum. I also NEVER stated anything about a 'war on patriotism' and if others did then their posts should be quoted, not mine.

Absinthe Anecdote
03-06-2014, 12:24 PM
I repeat MY posts were not about the validity of the court's decision. Again, not aware of the requirement to laser-focus posts. I will keep that in mind. I asked questions which I feel were relevant and still not answered on this forum. I also NEVER stated anything about a 'war on patriotism' and if others did then their posts should be quoted, not mine.

I'd prefer to continue holding you accountable for things you didn't say.

Seriously, sorry about that.