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View Full Version : How is morale in your neck of the woods?



Shaken1976
02-06-2014, 01:48 PM
With my job I talk to a lot of people. While working on their issues I get a lot of comments about the ongoing force shaping. Moral is LOW. People are pissed. A lot of people are scared. I spoke to one guy and both him and his wife are on the chopping block. Is it the same way where you are? A lot of people don't seem like they were prepared for this at all. I think the writing has been on the wall....but it doesn't make it easier.

Seems like the ONLY people safe are between 18-20 years in service...

akruse
02-06-2014, 02:36 PM
With my job I talk to a lot of people. While working on their issues I get a lot of comments about the ongoing force shaping. Moral is LOW. People are pissed. A lot of people are scared. I spoke to one guy and both him and his wife are on the chopping block. Is it the same way where you are? A lot of people don't seem like they were prepared for this at all. I think the writing has been on the wall....but it doesn't make it easier.

Seems like the ONLY people safe are between 18-20 years in service...

Our morals are in the shitter if you listen to the leadership and congress.

Our morale is also probably pretty low on average due to the above.

Shaken1976
02-06-2014, 02:55 PM
Our morals are in the shitter if you listen to the leadership and congress.

Our morale is also probably pretty low on average due to the above.

Yeah...I realized I used the wrong word too late. Oh well.

wxjumper
02-06-2014, 02:55 PM
Great for me because I was hoping for an opportunity to early retire. However, it is very low for people who will face the RIF. It doesn't help that the Air Force does not give complete guidance and leaves a lot of open ended questions.

imported_DannyJ
02-06-2014, 02:58 PM
It's pretty shit. I shouldn't even be eligible due to TIG, but had to jump through all the hoops to get strated anyway. I am so close to saying F*** it at this point. AF...why?

Rusty Jones
02-06-2014, 03:48 PM
The one piece of advice I can ever give someone joining the military is to ALWAYS have one foot out of the door AT ALL TIMES. Only do two or three year reenlistments, stash as much money away as you can, and work on your college degree... and search the web for jobs that you want, and look at the required KSA's to make sure that you can acquire them. Apply for some of them, just to see if you get picked up for interviews.

But if you only do one of those things... stash money away. If you've got $5,000 stashed away, you can buy a used mobile home or boat for that... and you can live off of working at McDonald's just fine.

Another thing... do not get married, and do not get a woman pregnant. That part needs no explanation.

The bottom line is this: you should never "need" the military. Because when you do, you're gonna be fucked when the military decides that it doesn't need YOU.

Vrake
02-06-2014, 03:53 PM
The one piece of advice I can ever give someone joining the military is to ALWAYS have one foot out of the door AT ALL TIMES. Only do two or three year reenlistments, stash as much money away as you can, and work on your college degree... and search the web for jobs that you want, and look at the required KSA's to make sure that you can acquire them. Apply for some of them, just to see if you get picked up for interviews.

But if you only one of those things... stash money away. If you've got $5,000 stashed away, you can buy a used mobile home or boat for that... and you can live off of working at McDonald's just fine.

Another thing... do not get married, and do not get a woman pregnant. That part needs no explanation.

The bottom line is this: you should never "need" the military. Because when you do, you're gonna be fucked when the military decides that it doesn't need YOU.


Great post Rusty!! I hate to say it but I steer people away from the military of late if they are dawdling with the idea. If they really want in I say go to college and go officer.

ihatenonners
02-06-2014, 03:56 PM
Morale is actually pretty normal around these parts. People have officially stopped giving a fuck, but their morale is fine lol. I think all the people that will be left behind are the ones who we should be worried out.

SomeRandomGuy
02-06-2014, 03:58 PM
Great post Rusty!! I hate to say it but I steer people away from the military of late if they are dawdling with the idea. If they really want in I say go to college and go officer.

I wouldn't steer people away from the military but I would give them most of the same advice as Rusty. What else is an 18 year old kid going to do straight out of high school? If you go to college for 4 years you are leaving with around $40,000 in debt. At that point you are a 22 year old kid looking for a job. Most companies would hire someone like that for around $40K. The reason for the low salary is because these companies view the person as "a kid". Now if this same 18 year old joins the military he gets an entry level job with 30 days paid vacation, free healthcare, and free medical. He could knock out most of his degree and enjoy some life experiences while growing up. Once he gets out he will probablys till need 1-2 years of college but it will be fully paid for with his GI Bill. In this situation the kid has avoided $40,000 in debt and spent some time growing up. That is huge jump start in life. The problem people run into is that they get used to the military lifestyle and they can't afford to lose thier income at the 4 year mark so they have to re-enlist.

sandsjames
02-06-2014, 04:02 PM
Morale in my neck of the woods is great. Neither my wife or I are feeling the strain of retirement. We wake up when we want, do what we want to do, and go to bed when we feel like it. Couldn't be better. Thanks for asking.

ihatenonners
02-06-2014, 04:08 PM
The one piece of advice I can ever give someone joining the military is to ALWAYS have one foot out of the door AT ALL TIMES. Only do two or three year reenlistments, stash as much money away as you can, and work on your college degree... and search the web for jobs that you want, and look at the required KSA's to make sure that you can acquire them. Apply for some of them, just to see if you get picked up for interviews.

But if you only do one of those things... stash money away. If you've got $5,000 stashed away, you can buy a used mobile home or boat for that... and you can live off of working at McDonald's just fine.

Another thing... do not get married, and do not get a woman pregnant. That part needs no explanation.

The bottom line is this: you should never "need" the military. Because when you do, you're gonna be fucked when the military decides that it doesn't need YOU.

My god, I cannot stress the do not get married and have kids part enough. I nearly lose my shit everytime some 19 year old A1C gets married and starts popping out kids because they think the government is always going to be there for them. There seems to be this mindset that if you want to live like its 1955, join the military. You can have kids, your wife wont have to work, and you can have your little white picket fence all before you're 21.

DWWSWWD
02-06-2014, 04:37 PM
I talk to a lot of folks and it's not good. I had a visit from a former CMSAF the other day. He was telling me what a great job I have, blah, blah. I told him, "Yeah, I enjoy spending time with them but they are having a real rough time right now." He said to tell them to work hard and everything will be OK. I told him that, no they wouldn't. There are folks on our team that are doing most everything right, and will not be OK. I think the best we can do with some of this stuff is to tell the truth and give our team the best chance at dealing with what's coming.

Measure Man
02-06-2014, 04:53 PM
The one piece of advice I can ever give someone joining the military is to ALWAYS have one foot out of the door AT ALL TIMES. Only do two or three year reenlistments, stash as much money away as you can, and work on your college degree... and search the web for jobs that you want, and look at the required KSA's to make sure that you can acquire them. Apply for some of them, just to see if you get picked up for interviews.
But if you only do one of those things... stash money away. If you've got $5,000 stashed away, you can buy a used mobile home or boat for that... and you can live off of working at McDonald's just fine.

Another thing... do not get married, and do not get a woman pregnant. That part needs no explanation.

The bottom line is this: you should never "need" the military. Because when you do, you're gonna be fucked when the military decides that it doesn't need YOU.

All good. I would just caution against the bolded part, depending on the nature of your career field.

If you are in a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone...it does not take long to get around. We had this happen at work, had a highly qualified candidate apply...so, we called his references who were people I knew. They said, "he's great, but I doubt he'll take the job, he seems to just enjoy getting offers." Well, we made him an offer anyway...sure enough, he sat on it for a week and then declined. A year later he inquires again saying he decided he really wants to come work here.

Sorry bud, fool us once, we won't get fooled again. Good luck at one of the other companies whose time you also wasted.

It is unprofessional and discourteous to waste people's time and efforst "just to see if you can get an interview"...being disingenuous like that will come back to bite you.

HeyEng
02-06-2014, 06:09 PM
Our unit is fairly small, but we do talk about it quite a bit. Bad thing is we have 2 of 5 FE's that will be departing *before* the seperation actions and at least one of 3 pilots. So, it's going to hurt no matter what happens.

The big issue is the lack of information. I have talked to a friend of mine who knows some of the *more specific* cuts that might happen, but the infomation isn't being filtered down. Basically sounds like they are waiting to see what the budget is going to look like and some other "hurry up and wait" stuff. I guess it's the PLAN FOR THE WORST BUT HOPE FOR THE BEST kind-of deal.

fufu
02-06-2014, 07:03 PM
I wouldn't steer people away from the military but I would give them most of the same advice as Rusty. What else is an 18 year old kid going to do straight out of high school? If you go to college for 4 years you are leaving with around $40,000 in debt. At that point you are a 22 year old kid looking for a job. Most companies would hire someone like that for around $40K. The reason for the low salary is because these companies view the person as "a kid". Now if this same 18 year old joins the military he gets an entry level job with 30 days paid vacation, free healthcare, and free medical. He could knock out most of his degree and enjoy some life experiences while growing up. Once he gets out he will probablys till need 1-2 years of college but it will be fully paid for with his GI Bill. In this situation the kid has avoided $40,000 in debt and spent some time growing up. That is huge jump start in life. The problem people run into is that they get used to the military lifestyle and they can't afford to lose thier income at the 4 year mark so they have to re-enlist.

$40k? Try closer to $80k.

The average public university is $15k a year(plus books and such). My buddy accumulated about $70K. My wife racked up $36k that we'll be paying on for the rest of our life.(SMH)

I can state that morale across the board is down. People are finally realizing they are only a number.

Hoo-huh???
02-06-2014, 09:06 PM
The one piece of advice I can ever give someone joining the military is to ALWAYS have one foot out of the door AT ALL TIMES. Only do two or three year reenlistments, stash as much money away as you can, and work on your college degree... and search the web for jobs that you want, and look at the required KSA's to make sure that you can acquire them. Apply for some of them, just to see if you get picked up for interviews.

But if you only do one of those things... stash money away. If you've got $5,000 stashed away, you can buy a used mobile home or boat for that... and you can live off of working at McDonald's just fine.

Another thing... do not get married, and do not get a woman pregnant. That part needs no explanation.

The bottom line is this: you should never "need" the military. Because when you do, you're gonna be fucked when the military decides that it doesn't need YOU.

I believe you can say the same thing for most civilian jobs too. You always have to plan for the future.

raider8169
02-06-2014, 10:44 PM
Morale was low here before all this happened and it hasnt changed much. Try all you want to raise moral but two seconds after you do something it goes back to how it was. People just expect the world and are pissed when they dont get what they want.

wxjumper
02-07-2014, 02:50 AM
I believe you can say the same thing for most civilian jobs too. You always have to plan for the future.

You beat me to the punch. What he gave was not military advice, it was life advice.

Rusty Jones
02-07-2014, 12:13 PM
The reason why this applies to military more, is because a civilian can leave his job as soon as all of the planets are aligned. Military? They have to be aligned WHEN your ETS hits, as that's your only opportunity to get out. If not, you're stuck for at least another two years... hoping that the planets will align the next time around.

wxjumper
02-07-2014, 12:23 PM
The reason why this applies to military more, is because a civilian can leave his job as soon as all of the planets are aligned. Military? They have to be aligned WHEN your ETS hits, as that's your only opportunity to get out. If not, you're stuck for at least another two years... hoping that the planets will align the next time around.

Counter to that, you have a lot more job security in the military (though those facing RIF would like to disagree, but the fact remains you are way more job secure in the military then the private sector). So one could argue that you that the advice you gave (stash money, get educated, always be on the lookout for other jobs) would apply more to those outside the military then in.

ihatenonners
02-07-2014, 09:16 PM
Counter to that, you have a lot more job security in the military (though those facing RIF would like to disagree, but the fact remains you are way more job secure in the military then the private sector). So one could argue that you that the advice you gave (stash money, get educated, always be on the lookout for other jobs) would apply more to those outside the military then in.

The ironic thing is that the military prepares us more for job insecurity than anything else! I can pack my shit up and move 3,000 miles to another job if I have to and not break a sweat. And then do it again 6 months after that if I had to. I've been to 5 bases in 10 years with a deployment under my belt and countless TDYs.

Measure Man
02-07-2014, 09:44 PM
Moral is LOW. People are pissed. A lot of people are scared.

Nothing some colored t-shirts can't fix :closed_2

Absinthe Anecdote
02-07-2014, 10:06 PM
Nothing some colored t-shirts can't fix :closed_2

And perhaps a dictionary... ;)

Rusty Jones
02-08-2014, 12:24 AM
Counter to that, you have a lot more job security in the military (though those facing RIF would like to disagree, but the fact remains you are way more job secure in the military then the private sector). So one could argue that you that the advice you gave (stash money, get educated, always be on the lookout for other jobs) would apply more to those outside the military then in.

The problem is this job security - whether real, perceived, or otherwise - causes people to get too comfortable and complacent, and put all of their eggs in one basket. The perceived lack of security on the outside causes civilians to stay on their toes a bit more. To civilians, what I said is already a given. Not so to someone who has been in the military their whole adult life.

jshiver15
02-08-2014, 02:10 PM
To be honest, morale hasn't really shifted in my career field. We ended up getting enough volunteers for separation that no one is going to a board (except 2 Chiefs, I believe). However, we do have one person in my shop who keeps bitching that she wasn't able to volunteer (they weren't taking SSgts). Otherwise, it's pretty standard for us.

Airborne
02-08-2014, 06:36 PM
To be honest, morale hasn't really shifted in my career field. We ended up getting enough volunteers for separation that no one is going to a board (except 2 Chiefs, I believe). However, we do have one person in my shop who keeps bitching that she wasn't able to volunteer (they weren't taking SSgts). Otherwise, it's pretty standard for us.

Yeh, sounds about the same for mine. E7-E9 took every slot and those that wanted to get out and even those that had relatively recent A15's documented and visible are left in. So the SNCOs that were trumpeting course 14 and volunteering blah blah blah are the ones getting kicked out or volunteered out while the rest of us are sat holding the phone. I think moral is low for the jr E's that wanted to get out and had some sort of plan but were denied because quotas were already met.

jshiver15
02-08-2014, 10:04 PM
Yeh, sounds about the same for mine. E7-E9 took every slot and those that wanted to get out and even those that had relatively recent A15's documented and visible are left in. So the SNCOs that were trumpeting course 14 and volunteering blah blah blah are the ones getting kicked out or volunteered out while the rest of us are sat holding the phone. I think moral is low for the jr E's that wanted to get out and had some sort of plan but were denied because quotas were already met.

I can understand that they had "plans", but I feel zero sympathy for them. ESPECIALLY the ones who saw this as an opportunity to get out of their contract while getting some bennies. Zero sympathy from me.

Rusty Jones
02-08-2014, 11:13 PM
I can understand that they had "plans", but I feel zero sympathy for them. ESPECIALLY the ones who saw this as an opportunity to get out of their contract while getting some bennies. Zero sympathy from me.

Huh? If anything, it's those who are past 20 that shouldn't be doing it since they can drop their papers at any time, regardless of ETS.

Airborne
02-09-2014, 12:07 AM
I can understand that they had "plans", but I feel zero sympathy for them. ESPECIALLY the ones who saw this as an opportunity to get out of their contract while getting some bennies. Zero sympathy from me.

Ummm...They arent crying in their cheerios or anything, but the OP asked about morale and that is what I have witnessed. You have a chance to get out of a crappy base in an economically depressed area, have $40k-60K dangled in front of you so you can move to a major or minor metro area where you have college, a job, or your parent's basement lined up and have everyone in a supervisory role tell you "the end is nigh" and "air force hunger games" but then the only ones that get out are SNCOs. Yeh some would be a little down about it, but they are also down about many other things that Airmen have been down on since the 60s so its nothing to get down on them about.

jshiver15
02-09-2014, 07:04 AM
Ummm...They arent crying in their cheerios or anything, but the OP asked about morale and that is what I have witnessed. You have a chance to get out of a crappy base in an economically depressed area, have $40k-60K dangled in front of you so you can move to a major or minor metro area where you have college, a job, or your parent's basement lined up and have everyone in a supervisory role tell you "the end is nigh" and "air force hunger games" but then the only ones that get out are SNCOs. Yeh some would be a little down about it, but they are also down about many other things that Airmen have been down on since the 60s so its nothing to get down on them about.

I really should have clarified that I was specifically talking about people I've worked with. In these specific cases, they were marginal (at best) workers and became worse and blamed it all of "the system". This is after they've re-enlisted and knew exactly what they were signing up for. I'd go into more detail, but I think you got the idea.

AFcynic
02-11-2014, 12:06 PM
My morale has been low for years. I drank the kool-aid on my first deployment in 2002, and I thought the AF was the cat's pajamas. Leaders were leaders, and people weren't afraid to call someone out for bad management, or bad behavior. Fast forward to 2012, and now I see officers saying the sky is red, and some punk ass SNCO agreeing with said officer. I see officers doing what they want, with ZERO consequences. Attitude reflects leadership, and when your leadership constantly leads by the motto "Do as I say, not as I do", you're going to have a lot of pissed off people.

I'd like to see one SNCO with the guts/decency/ability to stand up for what is right for the good of the unit, not for the advancement of their career. I see far too many SNCOs who would rather not tell the CC that the earth is indeed round. Chicken sh1t leadership, fundraisers, PT stats, meaningless stats, and meetings for the sake of meetings are going to cause the AF to implode.

BURAWSKI
02-11-2014, 01:11 PM
My morale has been low for years. I drank the kool-aid on my first deployment in 2002, and I thought the AF was the cat's pajamas. Leaders were leaders, and people weren't afraid to call someone out for bad management, or bad behavior. Fast forward to 2012, and now I see officers saying the sky is red, and some punk ass SNCO agreeing with said officer. I see officers doing what they want, with ZERO consequences. Attitude reflects leadership, and when your leadership constantly leads by the motto "Do as I say, not as I do", you're going to have a lot of pissed off people.

I'd like to see one SNCO with the guts/decency/ability to stand up for what is right for the good of the unit, not for the advancement of their career. I see far too many SNCOs who would rather not tell the CC that the earth is indeed round. Chicken sh1t leadership, fundraisers, PT stats, meaningless stats, and meetings for the sake of meetings are going to cause the AF to implode.

Not sure about the Marines or Army but I do know the Navy suffers from the same types of issues.

Rusty Jones
02-11-2014, 01:26 PM
Not sure about the Marines or Army but I do know the Navy suffers from the same types of issues.

You were around for this? I remember your signature once saying that you retired in 2005. I don't recall seeing CPOs getting punked down by JOs until around 2009. Right around the time I decided that I'd had enough.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-11-2014, 01:52 PM
My morale has been low for years. I drank the kool-aid on my first deployment in 2002, and I thought the AF was the cat's pajamas. Leaders were leaders, and people weren't afraid to call someone out for bad management, or bad behavior. Fast forward to 2012, and now I see officers saying the sky is red, and some punk ass SNCO agreeing with said officer. I see officers doing what they want, with ZERO consequences. Attitude reflects leadership, and when your leadership constantly leads by the motto "Do as I say, not as I do", you're going to have a lot of pissed off people.

I'd like to see one SNCO with the guts/decency/ability to stand up for what is right for the good of the unit, not for the advancement of their career. I see far too many SNCOs who would rather not tell the CC that the earth is indeed round. Chicken sh1t leadership, fundraisers, PT stats, meaningless stats, and meetings for the sake of meetings are going to cause the AF to implode..

People were having rants like that back in the 1980s, and very much like today, there was a kernel of truth to rants like that. However, like most rants they are puffed up exaggerations, fed by the frustration of trying to exist in a bureaucracy.

The sky has been falling since 1947, so chill out, and go do some PT to get rid of some of that stress and pent up anger.

Stalwart
02-11-2014, 02:42 PM
Not sure about the Marines or Army but I do know the Navy suffers from the same types of issues.

I left the Marines in 2001, there were issues with some people:

-1stSgt who assaulted a female LCpl -- Court Martial, reduction to Pvt, 1 year in the brig and a BCD.
-Capt got a DUI, took a while but was dismissed from service.

Right after I was commissioned in the Navy a frocked (by all appearances squared away) SCPO at my command was court martialed for fraternization, adultery, UA, assault, disobeying orders ... Reduced to 1stClass.

I see isolated 'jackassery' from junior & senior enlisted and officers alike, just differnt kinds of it. Maybe I am lucky or the exception, but in general over the course of my 23+ years in uniform (in the USMC & USN -- officer and enlisted) I have and continue to serve with people who by and large are good at what they do and maintain the standards of service. Junior enlisted tend to make mistakes that come from a lack of maturity and/or experience. The mistakes from Senior enlisted and officers tend to be a result of a sense that the rules don't apply to them. The mistakes of youth I am very forgiving of but when more senior folks go 'rogue' is what disappoints me most, to see a career of service tainted because someone has forgotten the importance or significance of the role they hold.

fufu
02-11-2014, 02:53 PM
Things I've seen lately:

- Lt gets DUI, fast fwd two years, Lt makes Capt
- SSgt deploys, NCOIC bangs his wife, SSgt returns, leaves wife, another SSgt deploys, the first SSgt bangs the 2nd SSgt wife - nothing from "leadership" - neither were punished

Stalwart
02-11-2014, 03:38 PM
Things I've seen lately:

- Lt gets DUI, fast fwd two years, Lt makes Capt
- SSgt deploys, NCOIC bangs his wife, SSgt returns, leaves wife, another SSgt deploys, the first SSgt bangs the 2nd SSgt wife - nothing from "leadership" - neither were punished

In my experience, adultery is almost always (almost) a charge they tack on to a set of other offenses. It is also very hard to prove (granted the burden of proof at Art 15 is much less than at Court Martial.). Short of admission by one of the parties or photos etc adultery is kind of hard, but not impossible to punish someone for.

PburghNo1
02-11-2014, 03:40 PM
Things I've seen lately:

- Lt gets DUI, fast fwd two years, Lt makes Capt

Things I've seen:
- SrA gets DUI, SrA now a Chief.
- A1C gets DUI, A1C now a Major.
- Lt gets DUI, Lt not selected for Capt (since separated)

Not condoning the behavior, but God forbid someone still advance after making a mistake and putting it behind them. (I'd bet dollars to donuts that Lt won't make Major, though...and probably won't survive the FM programs this year)



- SSgt deploys, NCOIC bangs his wife, SSgt returns, leaves wife, another SSgt deploys, the first SSgt bangs the 2nd SSgt wife - nothing from "leadership" - neither were punished

As devil's advocate, it's really difficult to prove adultery. Really difficult. You have no idea what the JAG advised the CC/Shirt...maybe there was some circumstance that precluded prosecution like lack of evidence or no corroborating statements.

waveshaper2
02-11-2014, 03:46 PM
Nothing new here. People have been banging other peoples wives basically forever. Example; During the time frame of the crusades when folks were also doing multiple deployments to the Mid-East there was lots of unauthorized wife banging going on back at the homestead.

BURAWSKI
02-11-2014, 03:49 PM
Nothing new here. People have been banging other peoples wives basically forever. Example; During the time frame of the crusades when folks were also doing multiple deployments to the Mid-East there was lots of unauthorized wife banging going on back at the homestead.

Not condoning the behavior either but it does take two to tango.

Stalwart
02-11-2014, 04:08 PM
I was a LCpl (E3) busted to PFC (E2) for assault consummated by battery (bar fight). Then a Cpl (E4) reduced to LCpl for disrespect to a commissioned officer. I made it to GySgt (E7) before commissioning. I discussed my NJPs on my commissioning application but once commissioned it has not been a factor and I am now a LCDR (O4.)

In the USMC & USN, administrative actions prior to commissioning are not included in your record once commissioned, a kind of 'fresh start.' Granted ... In today's atmosphere I probably would not be able to receive a commission.

BENDER56
02-11-2014, 05:27 PM
In my experience, adultery is almost always (almost) a charge they tack on to a set of other offenses. It is also very hard to prove (granted the burden of proof at Art 15 is much less than at Court Martial.). Short of admission by one of the parties or photos etc adultery is kind of hard, but not impossible to punish someone for.

Somewhere in the '03-'05 timeframe, the JA at Seymour-Johnson put on an all-day seminar for the base's commanders and first sergeants. During this, they came right out and said not to pursue most adultery cases because, absent photographic/videographic evidence, they were virtually impossible to prove. But -- as you mentioned -- they did say it was okay to add adultery as an additional specification for NJP or CMs of other offenses.

fufu
02-11-2014, 05:31 PM
In my experience, adultery is almost always (almost) a charge they tack on to a set of other offenses. It is also very hard to prove (granted the burden of proof at Art 15 is much less than at Court Martial.). Short of admission by one of the parties or photos etc adultery is kind of hard, but not impossible to punish someone for.

Totally agree. My comments are more directed at the corruption or lack of integrity our service has as a whole.

To those that said this has been going on forever, it has...but we are supposed to be better than those that came before us.

Stories like the NCOIC one is why I don't participate in any Sq/Wg events. Who can you really trust anymore? I don't mean just with your spouse or girlfriend...people today are just not trustworthy. It requires too much effort to decide between the good and bad...I just avoid them all.

Chief_KO
02-11-2014, 05:34 PM
Things I've seen:
- SrA gets DUI, SrA now a Chief.
- A1C gets DUI, A1C now a Major.
- Lt gets DUI, Lt not selected for Capt (since separated)


Some of us are slow learners and got a DUI as a SSgt

SomeRandomGuy
02-11-2014, 05:41 PM
Somewhere in the '03-'05 timeframe, the JA at Seymour-Johnson put on an all-day seminar for the base's commanders and first sergeants. During this, they came right out and said not to pursue most adultery cases because, absent photographic/videographic evidence, they were virtually impossible to prove. But -- as you mentioned -- they did say it was okay to add adultery as an additional specification for NJP or CMs of other offenses.

That seems like standard practice everywhere. At several different bases I was the finance guy who signed for article 15s from legal. We got a copy of all of them for continuity purposes. There were really only 3 types of cases where audultry was listed.

1.) Recruiter sleeping a recruit (audultry added to violating alwful order)
2.) Deployed people sleeping together and get caught during walkthrough or inspection (adultry also added to violating G.O. 1)
3.) The female in the relationship gets pregnant and a DNA test can prove who the father is.

Honestly, I can think of several times where someone in my unit was going through a divorce and already living with their next bf/gf. None of those cases ever got prosecuted.

OtisRNeedleman
02-11-2014, 06:23 PM
I was a LCpl (E3) busted to PFC (E2) for assault consummated by battery (bar fight). Then a Cpl (E4) reduced to LCpl for disrespect to a commissioned officer. I made it to GySgt (E7) before commissioning. I discussed my NJPs on my commissioning application but once commissioned it has not been a factor and I am now a LCDR (O4.)

In the USMC & USN, administrative actions prior to commissioning are not included in your record once commissioned, a kind of 'fresh start.' Granted ... In today's atmosphere I probably would not be able to receive a commission.

In today's AF you'd be tossed out after the second Article 15. How long did it take you to make GySgt?

OtisRNeedleman
02-11-2014, 06:25 PM
That seems like standard practice everywhere. At several different bases I was the finance guy who signed for article 15s from legal. We got a copy of all of them for continuity purposes. There were really only 3 types of cases where audultry was listed.

1.) Recruiter sleeping a recruit (audultry added to violating alwful order)
2.) Deployed people sleeping together and get caught during walkthrough or inspection (adultry also added to violating G.O. 1)
3.) The female in the relationship gets pregnant and a DNA test can prove who the father is.

Honestly, I can think of several times where someone in my unit was going through a divorce and already living with their next bf/gf. None of those cases ever got prosecuted.


It all depends. Back in the 90s adultery was prosecuted. When my kids' mother started seeing another military man told her I'd press adultery charges if I didn't get the divorce and the kids. I got the divorce and the kids.

Stalwart
02-11-2014, 06:57 PM
In today's AF you'd be tossed out after the second Article 15. How long did it take you to make GySgt?

I was barely allowed to reenlist; when I did get approved it was only for 24 months for "further observation." One screw up and I would be gone.

Promotion to GySgt:
TIS: 11 years, 4 months.
TIG: 2 years, 1 month

I was meritoriously promoted back to Cpl 5 weeks after I was reduced, meritoriously to Sgt, picked up SSgt normally and was combat meritoriously promoted to GySgt for some things that happened OEF Phase 1.

BRUWIN
02-11-2014, 08:39 PM
Some of us are slow learners and got a DUI as a SSgt

Alot of SSgt's were slow learners even though we didn't get a DUI but probably deserved it on more than one occasion. I just thank the good Lord I never killed anybody.

OtisRNeedleman
02-12-2014, 12:30 AM
I was barely allowed to reenlist; when I did get approved it was only for 24 months for "further observation." One screw up and I would be gone.

Promotion to GySgt:
TIS: 11 years, 4 months.
TIG: 2 years, 1 month

I was meritoriously promoted back to Cpl 5 weeks after I was reduced, meritoriously to Sgt, picked up SSgt normally and was combat meritoriously promoted to GySgt for some things that happened OEF Phase 1.

Wow.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-12-2014, 10:29 AM
I was a LCpl (E3) busted to PFC (E2) for assault consummated by battery (bar fight). Then a Cpl (E4) reduced to LCpl for disrespect to a commissioned officer. I made it to GySgt (E7) before commissioning. I discussed my NJPs on my commissioning application but once commissioned it has not been a factor and I am now a LCDR (O4.)

In the USMC & USN, administrative actions prior to commissioning are not included in your record once commissioned, a kind of 'fresh start.' Granted ... In today's atmosphere I probably would not be able to receive a commission.

I always thought Marines got soft treatment for getting into bar fights, and were sometimes encouraged to be aggressive out on the town.

I heard a story from a Marine when I was at a joint intel school on Ft Huachuca that the CC of Marine students gave a briefing one Friday afternoon that if they were in town and got into a confrontation, all they needed for a green light to "defend" themselves was for the other person to raise their hands above waist level.

He told me this story on Monday morning when I commented about a shit load of bar fights in town over the weekend.

Chief_KO
02-12-2014, 12:14 PM
I remember when the Marines and Sailors would get into bar fights on Guam. We Airmen would step back, continue to drink until the cops arrived or the club owners kicked them out. Then we would go back to partying with the now drastically increased female to male ratio.

ihatenonners
02-12-2014, 03:46 PM
i dont blame the marines for having way longer leashes than the other branches. if i ever caught a bullet in a warzone certain rules would stop applying to me as well. i'd make sure of that.

BRUWIN
02-12-2014, 09:00 PM
i dont blame the marines for having way longer leashes than the other branches. if i ever caught a bullet in a warzone certain rules would stop applying to me as well. i'd make sure of that.

no you wouldn't...you would do as your told and when your told to do it. You're maintenance...you don't get a say.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-12-2014, 09:07 PM
i dont blame the marines for having way longer leashes than the other branches. if i ever caught a bullet in a warzone certain rules would stop applying to me as well. i'd make sure of that.

Just out of curiosity, which rules would stop applying to you if you caught a bullet?

edoc118
02-12-2014, 11:42 PM
i dont blame the marines for having way longer leashes than the other branches. if i ever caught a bullet in a warzone certain rules would stop applying to me as well. i'd make sure of that.

Don't worry, only us nonners are in danger of catching a bullet. I'm sure you'll be quite safe, on the flight line, in the middle of the base.

BRUWIN
02-12-2014, 11:53 PM
Don't worry, only us nonners are in danger of catching a bullet. I'm sure you'll be quite safe, on the flight line, in the middle of the base.

Amen to that...16 years as a maintainer I never saw OTW...that all changed as a "nonner."

CYBERFX1024
02-13-2014, 01:15 AM
I always thought Marines got soft treatment for getting into bar fights, and were sometimes encouraged to be aggressive out on the town.

I heard a story from a Marine when I was at a joint intel school on Ft Huachuca that the CC of Marine students gave a briefing one Friday afternoon that if they were in town and got into a confrontation, all they needed for a green light to "defend" themselves was for the other person to raise their hands above waist level.

He told me this story on Monday morning when I commented about a shit load of bar fights in town over the weekend.

Well that's what we are taught from get go and what most recruiters look for. They look for the people that are Gung Ho and Aggressive. Then when we get in to our unit, it's a source of pride for us. I remember one time we had a platoon get together at a bar in downtown after we got Special Operations Certified for our MEU. You may think oh just a platoon, but our platoon had almost 50 odd Marines in it. When one of our guys got into to it with a guy because he was dancing with my friend was dancing with his girl. The guy tried to be cool with his 4 friends, that is until 40 Marines got up behind those guys.

Needless to say but we sing cadences about fighting and killing so it's inbred in us.

BRUWIN
02-13-2014, 01:37 AM
Well that's what we are taught from get go and what most recruiters look for. They look for the people that are Gung Ho and Aggressive. Then when we get in to our unit, it's a source of pride for us. I remember one time we had a platoon get together at a bar in downtown after we got Special Operations Certified for our MEU. You may think oh just a platoon, but our platoon had almost 50 odd Marines in it. When one of our guys got into to it with a guy because he was dancing with my friend was dancing with his girl. The guy tried to be cool with his 4 friends, that is until 40 Marines got up behind those guys.

Needless to say but we sing cadences about fighting and killing so it's inbred in us.

It's very rare the Marines screw with AF though...they'll get thier ass kicked in a second.

CYBERFX1024
02-13-2014, 02:31 AM
It's very rare the Marines screw with AF though...they'll get thier ass kicked in a second.

Because we know not to mess with the people we will depend on later. It's what we are taught early in the career: make friends with everyone in supply and finance, don't make enemies of those who can help you later.

sandsjames
02-13-2014, 12:52 PM
Well that's what we are taught from get go and what most recruiters look for. They look for the people that are Gung Ho and Aggressive. Then when we get in to our unit, it's a source of pride for us. I remember one time we had a platoon get together at a bar in downtown after we got Special Operations Certified for our MEU. You may think oh just a platoon, but our platoon had almost 50 odd Marines in it. When one of our guys got into to it with a guy because he was dancing with my friend was dancing with his girl. The guy tried to be cool with his 4 friends, that is until 40 Marines got up behind those guys.

Needless to say but we sing cadences about fighting and killing so it's inbred in us.

You must feel pretty awesome about that. One loud mouth starting a fight because he knows there are 49 others to back him up. Now that's something to be proud of.

sandsjames
02-13-2014, 12:54 PM
I remember when the Marines and Sailors would get into bar fights on Guam. We Airmen would step back, continue to drink until the cops arrived or the club owners kicked them out. Then we would go back to partying with the now drastically increased female to male ratio.

When I was in Guam and Marines would come to town for the weekend we were restricted to base.

Chief_KO
02-13-2014, 04:26 PM
When I was in Guam and Marines would come to town for the weekend we were restricted to base.

At the NCOA at Kadena in 1996 they were barred from the Airman's & NCO clubs.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-13-2014, 04:32 PM
At the NCOA at Kadena in 1996 they were barred from the Airman's & NCO clubs.

I think it is still like that at Kadena, and Marine E-5s and below are not allowed to buy more than a six pack of beer at the AAFES outlets.

jshiver15
02-13-2014, 05:16 PM
Because we know not to mess with the people we will depend on later. It's what we are taught early in the career: make friends with everyone in supply and finance, don't make enemies of those who can help you later.

I was trying to break up a fight between my friend and a local in downtown Honolulu one night (dude was wasted, got kicked out of 'The Rose', pushed one of our female friends on his way out of the bar, my friend intervened). All of a sudden this (obvious) Marine punched me in the mouth and I just looked at him and said "What the fuck are you doing?" and he said "Oh. Shit. Sorry." It was obvious the guy was just acting on impulse, as though it was second nature. I honestly wasn't even mad, just surprised.

jshiver15
02-13-2014, 05:18 PM
At the NCOA at Kadena in 1996 they were barred from the Airman's & NCO clubs.

I was at Yokota (when I was a kid) and remember them not allowing Marines into the NCO Club, Community Center, or indoor pool. This was in 1995 after the 3 Marines assaulted the little girl.

BURAWSKI
02-13-2014, 05:19 PM
I think it is still like that at Kadena, and Marine E-5s and below are not allowed to buy more than a six pack of beer at the AAFES outlets.

In 1997 I was stationed aboard USS SIMON LAKE in Sardenia. Any time the ship sailed outside our homeport we were required by COMSIXTHFLT to have a liberty buddy that was required to accompany you anywhere off the ship. This regulation applied to everyone, including the CO. We also had a regulation about overnight liberty which was authorized but only if you had written permission. It didn't matter if you were married or not either. I saw both enlisted and officers written up for not following this regulation. I saw E-9's and CDR's putting in request chits to stay on liberty overnight. I asked about this and was told that the reason for the draconian policies were because some Marines had caused an international incident by fighting with some foreign nationals in one of the nightclubs at one of the Arabian ports, which I think was Abhu Dhabi. In any event we all winded up paying the price for it. As far as I know the policies are still in force today.

CYBERFX1024
02-13-2014, 07:18 PM
You must feel pretty awesome about that. One loud mouth starting a fight because he knows there are 49 others to back him up. Now that's something to be proud of.

Sorry I worded that wrong. My friend was dancing with a girl, and the girl's bf got pissed and tried to start a fight with him, using his buddies as "back up". We didn't get involved until that guy tried to bumrush our friend.

sandsjames
02-13-2014, 07:28 PM
Sorry I worded that wrong. My friend was dancing with a girl, and the girl's bf got pissed and tried to start a fight with him, using his buddies as "back up". We didn't get involved until that guy tried to bumrush our friend.

I stand by my statement.

Mcjohn1118
02-13-2014, 07:31 PM
I was at Yokota (when I was a kid) and remember them not allowing Marines into the NCO Club, Community Center, or indoor pool. This was in 1995 after the 3 Marines assaulted the little girl.

My first duty assignment was Yokota between 93-95, as a cop. I still am SF so it's been a great ride. Anyway, there was a time during this period that marines were allowed at our Club. They would bus in and there was always a Gunny in charge of the bus. One weekend night, there was a small skirmish at the club involving a few Marines and they all got back on the bus. Well, we found a ID card of a Marine in the club and our Flight Chief entered the bus and asked if LCPL so-and-so was there. A loud "Efff-You" came out of the back. All of a sudden, the Gunny stood up, walked to the dude and smacked him hard in the head. He yelled in effect, "Look you piece of shit, he's the same rank as me and garners the same respect! Now apologize." The kid said he was sorry. The thing is, all we wanted to do was give this LCPL his ID back. He wasn't involved with the skirmish. The Gunny was cool as shit and we had a good working relationship with them. But you're right, after the incident you mentioned, they were banned from coming to our base.

DWWSWWD
02-14-2014, 01:02 PM
I was at Yokota (when I was a kid) ......... This was in 1995

Shit..... I was a SSgt.

BOSS302
02-14-2014, 01:25 PM
Shit..... I was a SSgt.

Elder Scroll...

imported_DannyJ
02-17-2014, 01:09 PM
I got Amn showin up from tech school BORN in 96. I was a sophmore in HS when these kids were born.

Side note: Amn used to show up KNOWING customs and courtesies (none of the ones I got are bad eggs). The fact we have to teach this shit at first duty station sure has hell affects my morale.

Ripcord
02-17-2014, 03:18 PM
As devil's advocate, it's really difficult to prove adultery. Really difficult. You have no idea what the JAG advised the CC/Shirt...maybe there was some circumstance that precluded prosecution like lack of evidence or no corroborating statements.

This is the truth. In my first year as a shirt I dealt with 2 incidents that were clearly adultery. The perpetrators were in other units so I was left to deal with the fallout of scorned husbands. In my experience nothing ruins a human being like being cheated on especially when you've been with that person for a several decades...

In both cases we knew that there was adultery happening with out a doubt. One case I had a cell phone "selfie" of at least one incident...perpetrator got an LOR for UR because there was no evidence of "penetration". The other one resulted in an LOC because in adultery cases its not about what you know its about what you can prove. Since the act of adultery is so private good luck getting that evidence. My guy had audio recordings from his vehicle in which you could clearly hear both parties going at it. Unfortunately, in this state recording someone without their consent is not legal so it could not be used.

Both cases were frustrating for us because what we knew beyond a shadow of a doubt could not be acted upon or used.

...I will say both cases involved SNCOs and they did not get away scott free. Their respective Chiefs had ways of dealing with it outside of NJP. One guy is no longer in the AF (retired I believe) and the other has no future in the AF either.

TomTom093
02-17-2014, 03:39 PM
I got Amn showin up from tech school BORN in 96. I was a sophmore in HS when these kids were born.

Side note: Amn used to show up KNOWING customs and courtesies (none of the ones I got are bad eggs). The fact we have to teach this shit at first duty station sure has hell affects my morale.

As someone who is stationed at Lackland and gets to see the new Airmen every weekend, BMT has gone to shit in the past few years. I've had to tell kids to wear their hats, not to walk and drink, and saw a group get yelled at for not saluting an officer. All these occurred AFTER the graduation ceremony.

Gonzo432
02-17-2014, 03:48 PM
I got Amn showin up from tech school BORN in 96. I was a sophmore in HS when these kids were born.

Side note: Amn used to show up KNOWING customs and courtesies (none of the ones I got are bad eggs). The fact we have to teach this shit at first duty station sure has hell affects my morale.

What a coincidence! I have a son who was born in 1996, and he's a junior in high school! His birthday is in July and the schools here cut-off the "begin school this year" date at 30 June. Did your new troop graduate mid-term senior year and go straight to BMT?

SomeRandomGuy
02-17-2014, 03:53 PM
What a coincidence! I have a son who was born in 1996, and he's a junior in high school! His birthday is in July and the schools here cut-off the "begin school this year" date at 30 June. Did your new troop graduate mid-term senior year and go straight to BMT?

According to timeanddate.com someone born Feb 17th 1996 would turn 18 today. His troop must have came in at 17 considering BMT is 8 weeks long and this is only the 7th week of 2013

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-17-2014, 04:12 PM
Thanks for that great detective work!

Gonzo432
02-17-2014, 05:58 PM
According to timeanddate.com someone born Feb 17th 1996 would turn 18 today. His troop must have came in at 17 considering BMT is 8 weeks long and this is only the 7th week of 2013

On 18 July my (youngest) son will turn 18. That don't seem possible, so please bear with me on "new troop born in 96" matters. I know you can enter DEP as a junior, so the soon-to-be new troop could've been in DEP for a year. I feel comfortable with my son backing out of the driveway without running over the neighbor lady walking her dog. He has a good handle on what he wants to do for a living and has a couple fallback plans if plan A doesn't work out. I don't see him walking into DannyJ's shop as the new troop, but he's almost there I guess.

SomeRandomGuy
02-17-2014, 06:06 PM
On 18 July my (youngest) son will turn 18. That don't seem possible, so please bear with me on "new troop born in 96" matters. I know you can enter DEP as a junior, so the soon-to-be new troop could've been in DEP for a year. I feel comfortable with my son backing out of the driveway without running over the neighbor lady walking her dog. He has a good handle on what he wants to do for a living and has a couple fallback plans if plan A doesn't work out. I don't see him walking into DannyJ's shop as the new troop, but he's almost there I guess.

It's all good. As the resident accountant I thought I would help with the math. There are quite a few CE guys around here and Most CE guys have a hard time counting to 20 unless you have time to wait for them to take their shoes off. In fact, one time a CE guy tried to count to 21 at finance. He ended up having to pull his pants down at the end.

BENDER56
02-17-2014, 06:22 PM
According to timeanddate.com someone born Feb 17th 1996 would turn 18 today. His troop must have came in at 17 considering BMT is 8 weeks long and this is only the 7th week of 2013

17-year-olds can join with consent of their parents/guardians.

We had a 17-year-old cop show up at Thule. It took me a bit of research to find out if she could drink alcohol or not. (Greenland doesn't have a minimum legal drinking age.)

BOSS302
02-17-2014, 06:22 PM
It's all good. As the resident accountant I thought I would help with the math. There are quite a few CE guys around here and Most CE guys have a hard time counting to 20 unless you have time to wait for them to take their shoes off. In fact, one time a CE guy tried to count to 21 at finance. He ended up having to pull his pants down at the end.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llw0bidg1h1qkufaeo1_500.gif

Max Power
02-17-2014, 06:43 PM
According to timeanddate.com someone born Feb 17th 1996 would turn 18 today. His troop must have came in at 17 considering BMT is 8 weeks long and this is only the 7th week of 2013

No wonder our pay gets fucked up.

SomeRandomGuy
02-17-2014, 06:49 PM
No wonder our pay gets fucked up.

I didn't count Jan 1st-4th because that wasn't a full week.

edoc118
02-17-2014, 07:10 PM
*Ahem*

2013

SomeRandomGuy
02-17-2014, 07:15 PM
*Ahem*

My bad.....What a brainless mistake. Looks like I might also be a candidate to join CE

sandsjames
02-17-2014, 08:17 PM
My bad.....What a brainless mistake. Looks like I might also be a candidate to join CE

Actually, it makes you a candidate for NCO of the month as a finance troop.

Chief_KO
02-17-2014, 11:14 PM
It's all good. As the resident accountant I thought I would help with the math. There are quite a few CE guys around here and Most CE guys have a hard time counting to 20 unless you have time to wait for them to take their shoes off. In fact, one time a CE guy tried to count to 21 at finance. He ended up having to pull his pants down at the end.

I heard he could only count to 20 1/4.

VCO
02-20-2014, 09:41 PM
My bad.....What a brainless mistake. Looks like I might also be a candidate to join CE

You wouldn't last a week in CE.

sandsjames
02-20-2014, 10:38 PM
You wouldn't last a week in CE.

He'd be loaned out to Utilities (or WFMS, whatever they call it these days) to lend a hand cleaning the shit farm within the first 2 weeks.

SomeRandomGuy
02-21-2014, 01:49 AM
You wouldn't last a week in CE.

I know. They would probably stick me in some back shop job like Vehicle Control Officer just to get rid of me.

VCO
02-21-2014, 09:36 AM
I know. They would probably stick me in some back shop job like Vehicle Control Officer just to get rid of me.

I don't know... it's even kinda tough for our VCOs to blame the customer for everything. My guess is you would be loaned out to security forces as an auggie. But then you would probably start making folks at the Gate check their own IDs.

jshiver15
02-21-2014, 10:06 AM
17-year-olds can join with consent of their parents/guardians.

We had a 17-year-old cop show up at Thule. It took me a bit of research to find out if she could drink alcohol or not. (Greenland doesn't have a minimum legal drinking age.)

There was a guy from the Virgin Islands in my BMT flight and he had JUST turned 17 when we got to basic. He'd apparently been waiting since he graduated high school at 15 and he went open general to get into the AF as fast as possible.

BOSS302
02-21-2014, 10:40 AM
I know. They would probably stick me in some back shop job like Vehicle Control Officer just to get rid of me.

You would be sent to augment the night shift flight line sweeper. Your vehicle partner would be "Tyrone."

Enjoy.

Shaken1976
02-21-2014, 01:05 PM
As someone who is stationed at Lackland and gets to see the new Airmen every weekend, BMT has gone to shit in the past few years. I've had to tell kids to wear their hats, not to walk and drink, and saw a group get yelled at for not saluting an officer. All these occurred AFTER the graduation ceremony.

I agree. I see it all the time. I hate going to the BX Thur-Sun. I see kids out in town doing crazy stuff. I approached one and reminded him to put on his cover. I was quiet about it. He responded by asking who I was and what I knew about the Air Force. Apparently no one told them NCO's have lives outside of the Air Force.

jshiver15
02-21-2014, 03:20 PM
I agree. I see it all the time. I hate going to the BX Thur-Sun. I see kids out in town doing crazy stuff. I approached one and reminded him to put on his cover. I was quiet about it. He responded by asking who I was and what I knew about the Air Force. Apparently no one told them NCO's have lives outside of the Air Force.

One thing I've noticed when visiting Ramstein is how fat our A1Cs and SrA are now. Granted, I'm not thin, but you can tell I work out quite a bit. A lot of these guys (and girls) are nearly busting through their BMT issued ABUs. I honestly don't remember it being that way when I was an A1C or SrA. I can say without a doubt, while the Army has a lot of fat Soldiers, we're definitely out-numbering them. And I don't even mean that proportionally.

AFcynic
02-21-2014, 06:04 PM
I agree. I see it all the time. I hate going to the BX Thur-Sun. I see kids out in town doing crazy stuff. I approached one and reminded him to put on his cover. I was quiet about it. He responded by asking who I was and what I knew about the Air Force. Apparently no one told them NCO's have lives outside of the Air Force.

Shaken - be careful when speaking to the graduating Airmen while you are in uniform. They have been empowered to usurp the chain of command via critique forms. An Airmen has no problem diming out TSgt XXX if he/she called him/her out for their bad behavior. Especially if you do it in front of their family members. Your level of professionalism won't make a difference if the Airman PERCEIVES you disrespected him/her. Your name will go on the line, the anonymous Airman will be at tech school, and you'll be answering to someone for the incident. I would love to tell you that I'm exaggerating the situation, but that's just the way it goes around here. Good luck, have a great weekend, and don't drink and drive. You might spill your beer.

BURAWSKI
02-21-2014, 06:40 PM
Shaken - be careful when speaking to the graduating Airmen while you are in uniform. They have been empowered to usurp the chain of command via critique forms. An Airmen has no problem diming out TSgt XXX if he/she called him/her out for their bad behavior. Especially if you do it in front of their family members. Your level of professionalism won't make a difference if the Airman PERCEIVES you disrespected him/her. Your name will go on the line, the anonymous Airman will be at tech school, and you'll be answering to someone for the incident. I would love to tell you that I'm exaggerating the situation, but that's just the way it goes around here. Good luck, have a great weekend, and don't drink and drive. You might spill your beer.

Examples like this are exactly what is wrong with the military today. I remember back in the early 1990's it was called TQL or TQM (Total Quality Leadership/Management). You know, where your juniors get just as much say so as their supervisors or that the juniors get to critique leadership just as they get critiqued. Problem is the military isn't set up that way. Seniors give orders to juniors because they happen to have the perspective and experience. If the experience and perspective isn't respected up or down the chain of command, then oh well.

Shaken1976
02-21-2014, 06:57 PM
Shaken - be careful when speaking to the graduating Airmen while you are in uniform. They have been empowered to usurp the chain of command via critique forms. An Airmen has no problem diming out TSgt XXX if he/she called him/her out for their bad behavior. Especially if you do it in front of their family members. Your level of professionalism won't make a difference if the Airman PERCEIVES you disrespected him/her. Your name will go on the line, the anonymous Airman will be at tech school, and you'll be answering to someone for the incident. I would love to tell you that I'm exaggerating the situation, but that's just the way it goes around here. Good luck, have a great weekend, and don't drink and drive. You might spill your beer.

I wasn't in uniform. But I know what you mean. And really..I was just trying to be polite and correct him quietly before someone else saw him. He took it to a different level.

HeyEng
02-21-2014, 10:27 PM
Shaken - be careful when speaking to the graduating Airmen while you are in uniform. They have been empowered to usurp the chain of command via critique forms. An Airmen has no problem diming out TSgt XXX if he/she called him/her out for their bad behavior. Especially if you do it in front of their family members. Your level of professionalism won't make a difference if the Airman PERCEIVES you disrespected him/her. Your name will go on the line, the anonymous Airman will be at tech school, and you'll be answering to someone for the incident. I would love to tell you that I'm exaggerating the situation, but that's just the way it goes around here. Good luck, have a great weekend, and don't drink and drive. You might spill your beer.

I call BS on this. During my 6 years at Lackland, I chewed plenty of ass; sometimes in front of the family members...it was all dependent on the situation. Do you know how many times I had to "answer for my actions"? It's easy to answer; even a CE troop can count this high: 0.

If you are *afraid* of being critiqued for DOING YOUR JOB as an NCO, then you need to GET THE FUCK OUT or grow a pair.

sandsjames
02-21-2014, 10:57 PM
I call BS on this. During my 6 years at Lackland, I chewed plenty of ass; sometimes in front of the family members...it was all dependent on the situation. Do you know how many times I had to "answer for my actions"? It's easy to answer; even a CE troop can count this high: 0.

If you are *afraid* of being critiqued for DOING YOUR JOB as an NCO, then you need to GET THE FUCK OUT or grow a pair.

I think you missed the sarcasm.

BENDER56
02-22-2014, 12:38 AM
I think you missed the sarcasm.

Ah, crap.

I went and "liked" it, so AF Cynic hooked two of us with the same bait.

sandsjames
02-22-2014, 12:48 AM
Ah, crap.

I went and "liked" it, so AF Cynic hooked two of us with the same bait.


Well, I think there was a lot of truth behind, and not completely sarcasm. Maybe the term exaggeration would have been better.

wxjumper
02-22-2014, 04:21 AM
Chewing somebody out in front of family members? That's a new one to me. What did you guys do back in the 80s/90s, go to the persons home and chew the person out while that person was sitting with his family in the living room watching The Cosby Show???

TomTom093
02-22-2014, 02:30 PM
Don't wear my uniform wrong if you don't want to get chewed out; regardless of who you're with.

One time, while walking outside the BX, there were two new graduates walking in full service dress. On had a camelbak on (God knows why). While walking, he brought the hose up to his mouth and drank. When they got closer to me, I explained to him that was wrong. He told me that he was just pretending to drink, not actually drinking. I said it didn't matter, it still was against the regulations. On closer look, his top button on his shirt wasn't buttoned. I told him to go inside the BX restroom and fix himself.

I get that those who have been in a while understand there are bigger things to worry about (and I agree that there are) that whether a button is buttoned or someone's drinking and walking, but when that is literally all they DO have to worry about and they still don't care, it's aggravating.

HeyEng
02-22-2014, 04:08 PM
Chewing somebody out in front of family members? That's a new one to me. What did you guys do back in the 80s/90s, go to the persons home and chew the person out while that person was sitting with his family in the living room watching The Cosby Show???

I'm talking about San Antonio, when the Airmen are out and about with the families during liberty. Most occasions, I would pull them to the side and tell them the errs of their way. On two occasions, they didn't want to be pulled aside, so they got their asses chewed with Mommy watching.

And as for the sarcasm...I didn't detect ANY of that, and I am one sarcastic bastard.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-22-2014, 06:23 PM
Don't wear my uniform wrong if you don't want to get chewed out; regardless of who you're with.

One time, while walking outside the BX, there were two new graduates walking in full service dress. On had a camelbak on (God knows why). While walking, he brought the hose up to his mouth and drank. When they got closer to me, I explained to him that was wrong. He told me that he was just pretending to drink, not actually drinking. I said it didn't matter, it still was against the regulations. On closer look, his top button on his shirt wasn't buttoned. I told him to go inside the BX restroom and fix himself.

I get that those who have been in a while understand there are bigger things to worry about (and I agree that there are) that whether a button is buttoned or someone's drinking and walking, but when that is literally all they DO have to worry about and they still don't care, it's aggravating.

I've got to agree with your attitude on this and commend you for taking a stand.

I often stop people who have big abdominal circumferences to correct them. I stopped this TSgt at the PX the other day who was in the food court eating four Frank's Franks hot dogs and a double side of corn dog bites.

I said, "Excuse me, Sergeant, but your waist measurement already looks like it is over minimum standards, I don't think you should be eating all those hot dogs."

Can you believe he got all huffy and started carrying on about having to take a PT test 30 days before his terminal leave started?

The nerve of some people!

I calmed him down and made him throw away the remainder of his hot dogs and corn dogs bites.

Oh, and this guy was wearing a camelback full of Mountain Dew, so when he jostled over to the garbage bin, the carbonation in the Mountain Dew made it start spewing everywhere.

He actually tried to blame me for causing a big scene, but he knew it was his fault after I got him out on the sidewalk to instruct him on the importance of proper nutrition.

Capt Alfredo
02-22-2014, 08:08 PM
I've got to agree with your attitude on this and commend you for taking a stand.

I often stop people who have big abdominal circumferences to correct them. I stopped this TSgt at the PX the other day who was in the food court eating four Frank's Franks hot dogs and a double side of corn dog bites.

I said, "Excuse me, Sergeant, but your waist measurement already looks like it is over minimum standards, I don't think you should be eating all those hot dogs."

Can you believe he got all huffy and started carrying on about having to take a PT test 30 days before his terminal leave started?

The nerve of some people!

I calmed him down and made him throw away the remainder of his hot dogs and corn dogs bites.

Oh, and this guy was wearing a camelback full of Mountain Dew, so when he jostled over to the garbage bin, the carbonation in the Mountain Dew made it start spewing everywhere.

He actually tried to blame me for causing a big scene, but he knew it was his fault after I got him out on the sidewalk to instruct him on the importance of proper nutrition.

Your troll is definitely within AC standards; he's so wee!

TSgt"M"
02-22-2014, 08:37 PM
If you can't be responsible enough to wear the uniform correctly, (pretty simple thing) how can you be trusted to do your job correctly. I was taught by my first supervisor to treat my service dress with as much respect as the flag. I was corrected on plenty occasions, and I corrected on plently occasions.

sandsjames
02-22-2014, 08:47 PM
If you can't be responsible enough to wear the uniform correctly, (pretty simple thing) how can you be trusted to do your job correctly. I was taught by my first supervisor to treat my service dress with as much respect as the flag. I was corrected on plenty occasions, and I corrected on plently occasions.

I always love that argument. It's like saying to a child "If you can't eat all your vegetables how can I expect you to do well in school?"

sandsjames
02-22-2014, 08:47 PM
Your troll is definitely within AC standards; he's so wee!

He's only half trolling. I'm sure these thoughts go through his head on a pretty regular basis.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-22-2014, 10:07 PM
I always love that argument. It's like saying to a child "If you can't eat all your vegetables how can I expect you to do well in school?"

It's true though.

If you can't even be trusted to wear your uniform the right way, why would I trust you to do your job the right way.

If you can't be trusted to eat a proper diet and pass a simple fitness test, why would anyone assume you have a handle on your job.

I'm not buying that fairy tale about the fat and sloppy guy who is a wizard at doing his job.

sandsjames
02-22-2014, 10:09 PM
It's true though.

If you can't even be trusted to wear your uniform the right way, why would I trust you to do your job the right way.

If you can't be trusted to eat a proper diet and pass a simple fitness test, why would anyone assume you have a handle on your job.

I'm not buying that fairy tale about the fat and sloppy guy who is a wizard at doing his job.

Guess you've never been to a construction site or a Caterpillar factory.

VCO
02-22-2014, 10:13 PM
It's true though.

If you can't even be trusted to wear your uniform the right way, why would I trust you to do your job the right way.

If you can't be trusted to eat a proper diet and pass a simple fitness test, why would anyone assume you have a handle on your job.

I'm not buying that fairy tale about the fat and sloppy guy who is a wizard at doing his job.

I'm seeing the truth in this more and more as my career progresses. It isn't 100%, but folks that take care of themselves physically, tend to be more squared away on the job. The same with the uniform. Airmen that show pride in how they look tend to to take the same level of pride in their work. The inverse of those examples seems to be true as well. If this is a 9 - 5 job for ya, why look sharp or give that extra effort to do the best you can.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-22-2014, 10:18 PM
Guess you've never been to a construction site or a Caterpillar factory.

That's not part of their job.

It is part of an airman's job.

Do you want to buy a house that was build by construction workers who flagrantly ignore part of their responsibilities?

Besides, the fat guys at construction sites aren't doing the hard work. They can't even keep up with the young guys that are physically fit.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-22-2014, 10:19 PM
I'm seeing the truth in this more and more as my career progresses. It isn't 100%, but folks that take care of themselves physically, tend to be more squared away on the job. The same with the uniform. Airmen that show pride in how they look tend to to take the same level of pride in their work. The inverse of those examples seems to be true as well. If this is a 9 - 5 job for ya, why look sharp or give that extra effort to do the best you can.

Exactly.

sandsjames
02-22-2014, 10:25 PM
That's not part of their job.

It is part of an airman's job.

Do you want to buy a house that was build by construction workers who flagrantly ignore part of their responsibilities? As long as they are following the important ones then it's all good. And, yes, there is a huge difference between the big responsibilities and the small ones.


Besides, the fat guys at construction sites aren't doing the hard work. They can't even keep up with the young guys that are physically fit. ???? So is it because they are fat or because they are young? Or are you saying that old guys are fat? I'm confused, because you just compared fat guys to young guys. Are there no in shape old guys? Are there no out of shape young guys? Apple/oranges anyone?

And, to answer the question, I'd rather have the guy who's built 200 houses than the guy who's build 3, no matter what kind of shape they are in.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-22-2014, 10:36 PM
As long as they are following the important ones then it's all good. And, yes, there is a huge difference between the big responsibilities and the small ones.

???? So is it because they are fat or because they are young? Or are you saying that old guys are fat? I'm confused, because you just compared fat guys to young guys. Are there no in shape old guys? Are there no out of shape young guys? Apple/oranges anyone?

And, to answer the question, I'd rather have the guy who's built 200 houses than the guy who's build 3, no matter what kind of shape they are in.

Maybe you should have been a construction worker.

sandsjames
02-22-2014, 11:39 PM
Maybe you should have been a construction worker.

Nah, that's ok. I'm perfectly happy to collect a pension for the rest of my life for 20 years of whining.

TomTom093
02-23-2014, 03:43 AM
As long as they are following the important ones then it's all good. And, yes, there is a huge difference between the big responsibilities and the small ones.



In the case of new graduates, they have literally two jobs that weekend: make sure that they don't make asses of themselves, and wear the uniform correctly. That's it. They aren't typing contracts, watching a gate, or downrange fighting.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-23-2014, 09:18 AM
In the case of new graduates, they have literally two jobs that weekend: make sure that they don't make asses of themselves, and wear the uniform correctly. That's it. They aren't typing contracts, watching a gate, or downrange fighting.

Yep, but that isn't how he see it. It is just a "little" responsibility that the slobs are ignoring.

He wants the fat slobs to be patted on the head and told that they are special.

sandsjames
02-23-2014, 12:30 PM
Yep, but that isn't how he see it. It is just a "little" responsibility that the slobs are ignoring.

He wants the fat slobs to be patted on the head and told that they are special.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing. Advocating all fatties.

I love how you took your argument about you being ok with not trying to improve leadership and changed it into another PT thread. I guess when you can't make any valid points, other than personal attacks, you have to find something.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-23-2014, 01:12 PM
Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing. Advocating all fatties.

I love how you took your argument about you being ok with not trying to improve leadership and changed it into another PT thread. I guess when you can't make any valid points, other than personal attacks, you have to find something.

Except that isn't exactly what happened. You only "shape-shifted" into trying to improve leadership when I pointed out that familiar dark storm cloud of complaints raining down discontent upon the Air Force.

Of course, improvement of the promotion system is a reasonable endeavor, but you were merely using it as a thunderbolt to hurl at a system that you failed to adapt to, despite, your 20 year association with it.

When I pointed out the folly of trying to prevent the phenomena of "bad leaders," you only became more agitated and moved your little, storm front of discontent into other threads.

The basic premise of following little rules, like keeping a sharp uniform and a heathy body appear beyond your grasp.

Instead of buying an iron, and going to the gym, you advocate a career of officer bashing and ignoring "little responsibilities."

I can see what is at the heart of that little dark storm cloud and he seems unwilling to accept any personal responsibility.

Including the responsibilities of personal appearance, nutrition and exercise, and yes, the responsibility of coping with a bad boss.

sandsjames
02-23-2014, 01:18 PM
You win...you win...you win.

That's absolutely what I'm advocating. Everyone should get fat. Everyone should ignore all regs. Everyone should come to work as if they were working at a Starbucks. Yep, that's what I said.

BENDER56
02-23-2014, 03:34 PM
You win...you win...you win.

That's absolutely what I'm advocating. Everyone should get fat. Everyone should ignore all regs. Everyone should come to work as if they were working at a Starbucks. Yep, that's what I said.

Dude.

You do realize that AA is trying to be the Bruwin of PT, don't you?

Or perhaps a more-nuanced version of PT GOD.

Either way, he's engaging in a literary device known as satire, with a smidgen of hyperbole thrown in. He's ironically making the point that there's misplaced emphasis on PT in the AF, which I think is what you also believe. (I could be wrong on that part but I'm not going to wade through your previous posts to find out -- I'm sure you'll let me know.)

sandsjames
02-23-2014, 03:37 PM
Dude.

You do realize that AA is trying to be the Bruwin of PT, don't you?

Or perhaps a more-nuanced version of PT GOD.

Either way, he's engaging in a literary device known as satire, with a smidgen of hyperbole thrown in. He's ironically making the point that there's misplaced emphasis on PT in the AF, which I think is what you also believe. (I could be wrong on that part but I'm not going to wade through your previous posts to find out -- I'm sure you'll let me know.)

Yes, I do realize the purpose of his posts. I think I even mentioned his trolling a page or so ago (or maybe that was in another thread).

Absinthe Anecdote
02-23-2014, 04:40 PM
Dude.

You do realize that AA is trying to be the Bruwin of PT, don't you?

Or perhaps a more-nuanced version of PT GOD.

Either way, he's engaging in a literary device known as satire, with a smidgen of hyperbole thrown in. He's ironically making the point that there's misplaced emphasis on PT in the AF, which I think is what you also believe. (I could be wrong on that part but I'm not going to wade through your previous posts to find out -- I'm sure you'll let me know.)

I'm glad you came along and helped him save a little face. You have undoubtedly prevented the ravaging of countless cartons of Little Debbie snack cakes that would have been the victims of his shame induced binge.

I try to help people see that they hold the key to their liberation by embracing a solid nutrition and fitness regime.

Unfortunately, the siren's call of temptresses like Little Debbie, is too much for some people. They'd rather be satiated by a sugary confection, than by the pleasant burn of exercise.

It's sad what all that sugar and denial can do to a person.

Sad, really, it is very sad.

sandsjames
02-23-2014, 04:51 PM
I'm glad you came along and helped him save a little face. You have undoubtedly prevented the ravaging of countless cartons of Little Debbie snack cakes that would have been the victims of his shame induced binge.

I try to help people see that they hold the key to their liberation by embracing a solid nutrition and fitness regime.

Unfortunately, the siren's call of temptresses like Little Debbie, is too much for some people. They'd rather be satiated by a sugary confection, than by the pleasant burn of exercise.

It's sad what all that sugar and denial can do to a person.

Sad, really, it is very sad.

Yes, thank God I can save a little face. I've been so utterly embarrassed by you in recent days. The shame alone deserves a tub of Ben & Jerry's.

fufu
02-23-2014, 05:37 PM
If you can't be responsible enough to wear the uniform correctly, (pretty simple thing) how can you be trusted to do your job correctly.

Contrary to your brainwashing, everything can't be equally important. Making sure an airplane is safe for flight isn't nearly as important as a cargo pocket being unbuttoned. One affects safety of personnel and assets, one hurts no one and doesn't matter.

Big Blue wants you to believe that everything has equal importance. The reality is some things are just more important that others. We should trust our Airman to understand that..... Beyond that, there are too many rules, requirements and taskings for people to even know the rule exists. The new safety AFI is 1000 pages, do you know it all? I don't. Dress and Appearance is what...250 pages? Again, that's two AFIs...how many more are there? What about the differences between bases? Commands? AOR requirements? Its like trying to hit a moving target...

USN - Retired
02-23-2014, 07:12 PM
It's true though.

If you can't even be trusted to wear your uniform the right way, why would I trust you to do your job the right way.

If you can't be trusted to eat a proper diet and pass a simple fitness test, why would anyone assume you have a handle on your job.

I'm not buying that fairy tale about the fat and sloppy guy who is a wizard at doing his job.

Lieutenant General Leslie Richard Groves, Jr. (17 August 1896 – 13 July 1970) was a United States Army Corps of Engineers officer who oversaw the construction of the Pentagon and directed the Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bomb during World War II.

Could he have passed the current Army physical fitness test?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg/463px-Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg

fufu
02-23-2014, 07:46 PM
Lieutenant General Leslie Richard Groves, Jr. (17 August 1896 – 13 July 1970) was a United States Army Corps of Engineers officer who oversaw the construction of the Pentagon and directed the Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bomb during World War II.

Could he have passed the current Army physical fitness test?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg/463px-Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg

The PT/appearance is everything crowd doesn't want to hear about accomplishments from past military leaders who are not poster boy thin.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-23-2014, 07:52 PM
Lieutenant General Leslie Richard Groves, Jr. (17 August 1896 – 13 July 1970) was a United States Army Corps of Engineers officer who oversaw the construction of the Pentagon and directed the Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bomb during World War II.

Could he have passed the current Army physical fitness test?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg/463px-Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg

Unlikely, and I am very much disturbed by the appearance of his uniform. What are those on his feet, bedroom slippers? Don't even get me started about how he is wearing his hat.

No wonder the atomic bomb project was so far behind! Heck, we barely had time to drop it before the war ended.

Very disturbing, indeed!

I have no doubt, had we put a svelte general in charge of the project it would have been completed much sooner.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-23-2014, 08:00 PM
Contrary to your brainwashing, everything can't be equally important. Making sure an airplane is safe for flight isn't nearly as important as a cargo pocket being unbuttoned. One affects safety of personnel and assets, one hurts no one and doesn't matter.

Big Blue wants you to believe that everything has equal importance. The reality is some things are just more important that others. We should trust our Airman to understand that..... Beyond that, there are too many rules, requirements and taskings for people to even know the rule exists. The new safety AFI is 1000 pages, do you know it all? I don't. Dress and Appearance is what...250 pages? Again, that's two AFIs...how many more are there? What about the differences between bases? Commands? AOR requirements? Its like trying to hit a moving target...

How about just buttoning your pocket? Are you that overwhelmed by a mere 250 pages to be bothered with keeping a tidy uniform?

I have heard some excuses in my day, but this is certainly a doozie!

Bases! Commands! AORs! Moving targets!

Boo Hoo Hoo!

Just keep your pockets buttoned and go read your safety AFI before you get someone killed.

Stalwart
02-23-2014, 08:46 PM
Contrary to your brainwashing, everything can't be equally important. Making sure an airplane is safe for flight isn't nearly as important as a cargo pocket being unbuttoned. One affects safety of personnel and assets, one hurts no one and doesn't matter.

Won't argue that some things are more important than others. That said, fixing a basic uniform discrepancy usually does not take more than a moment and I can't count how many times I have corrected someone on something simple when there wasn't really danger of life or property and they acted like I was asking them to give their right arm.

USN - Retired
02-23-2014, 10:07 PM
Unlikely, and I am very much disturbed by the appearance of his uniform. What are those on his feet, bedroom slippers? .

In the picture, Groves and Oppenheimer are at the site of the Trinity test, the first atomic explosion, in September 1945. The white overshoes were to prevent fallout from sticking to the soles of their shoes.

I do have to admit that the worst CO that I ever knew in the Navy was a big fat slob (CO of NSF Diego Garcia in late 1997 and early 1998 - anyone know him?). His uniform was always a mess and his hair was always too long. He was a clueless and meddlesome idiot who crushed the morale on the Island.

BENDER56
02-23-2014, 11:10 PM
In the picture, Groves and Oppenheimer are at the site of the Trinity test, the first atomic explosion, in September 1945. The white overshoes were to prevent fallout from sticking to the soles of their shoes.

I do have to admit that the worst CO that I ever knew in the Navy was a big fat slob (CO of NSF Diego Garcia in late 1997 and early 1998 - anyone know him?). His uniform was always a mess and his hair was always too long. He was a clueless and meddlesome idiot who crushed the morale on the Island.

Back when I was a carpenter back in the '70s, I worked for a guy who said he was a SeaBee and helped build Diego Garcia. He said it was round-the-clock work, but he also had many tales of drunken craziness.

What was it like when you were there?

BURAWSKI
02-24-2014, 03:28 AM
Unlikely, and I am very much disturbed by the appearance of his uniform. What are those on his feet, bedroom slippers? Don't even get me started about how he is wearing his hat.

No wonder the atomic bomb project was so far behind! Heck, we barely had time to drop it before the war ended.

Very disturbing, indeed!

I have no doubt, had we put a svelte general in charge of the project it would have been completed much sooner.

Well, change is a given. Does anyone think that General Curtis Lemay would have passed todays Air Force PRT tape measurement or not be told that his cigar smoking sets a bad example?

wxjumper
02-24-2014, 03:58 AM
Lieutenant General Leslie Richard Groves, Jr. (17 August 1896 – 13 July 1970) was a United States Army Corps of Engineers officer who oversaw the construction of the Pentagon and directed the Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bomb during World War II.

Could he have passed the current Army physical fitness test?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg/463px-Trinity_Test_-_Oppenheimer_and_Groves_at_Ground_Zero_002.jpg

He's got a nice FUPA

TSat75
02-24-2014, 04:37 AM
It's true though.

I'm not buying that fairy tale about the fat and sloppy guy who is a wizard at doing his job.

I have read enough to know the reasons behind your post and the parody they try to encapsulate. However, there is some truth to this - in today's "cyber" world, it is usually the fat sloppy guys that spend hours and hours starting into a computer screen typing code, analyzing whatever, and managing systems that are the wizards at their jobs. Sometimes - so much so that they neglect themselves. They are called nerds, geeks, whatever...but they are making $$$ and are great at their jobs, and in today's digital world, they enable the world to operate. All while eating a twinkie and sucking down a coke to keep the sugar high so they can focus. Just saying - that kid that played WoW for hours and hours is now spending just as much time in front of the computer managing software for mass emergency alerts making $$$ and doing his job well...with a box of little debbies by his side. :)

Absinthe Anecdote
02-24-2014, 11:21 AM
I have read enough to know the reasons behind your post and the parody they try to encapsulate. However, there is some truth to this - in today's "cyber" world, it is usually the fat sloppy guys that spend hours and hours starting into a computer screen typing code, analyzing whatever, and managing systems that are the wizards at their jobs. Sometimes - so much so that they neglect themselves. They are called nerds, geeks, whatever...but they are making $$$ and are great at their jobs, and in today's digital world, they enable the world to operate. All while eating a twinkie and sucking down a coke to keep the sugar high so they can focus. Just saying - that kid that played WoW for hours and hours is now spending just as much time in front of the computer managing software for mass emergency alerts making $$$ and doing his job well...with a box of little debbies by his side. :)

Analyzing whatever? That shows you haven't got a clue about cyber operations. I know all about Cyber Command and the ones making it happen, are those who are hitting the gym on a regular basis, and taking care of their personal hygiene.

Stop trying to glamorize, not taking a shower and eating junk food.

Stalwart
02-24-2014, 01:24 PM
Well, change is a given. Does anyone think that General Curtis Lemay would have passed todays Air Force PRT tape measurement or not be told that his cigar smoking sets a bad example?

Or General Gray (former Commandant of the Marine Corps) ... he was rather 'rotund' ... but, up to the point he was a Colonel he cranked out the PFT like all other Marines. It was not required for all Marines (regardless of age / TIS) to complete a PFT until Gen Krulak became Commandant ... who said "if you guys have to do it, so should I). Gen Krulak was far from a perfect PFT runner etc. but still did it.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-24-2014, 02:59 PM
Well, change is a given. Does anyone think that General Curtis Lemay would have passed todays Air Force PRT tape measurement or not be told that his cigar smoking sets a bad example?

Ideally, General LeMay should have ditched the cigars and opted for a low calorie diet, but I'd like to point out that he lived in the era before junk food, so he wasn't chasing after Little Debbie, like some of these twisted perverts we have today.

Still, General Lemay did workout and practiced judo for many years. So while I disapprove of his abdominal circumference, I'll give him a little credit for that.

I anticipate a bunch of whiny TSgts who can't pass a PT test to see this as an opening to justify their slovenly lifestyles. Don't even go there, because you are no Curtis Lemay.

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/255a5bcbbf3a29d6_landing

You guys are in the modern era Air Force, not the bygone days were our leaders gobbled up pot roasts, pie a la mode, and used tobacco.

If you want a general to look up to, I suggest that you use General Norton Schwartz, he's got it all.

Whip thin and wiry, he is the perfect combination of brains and brawn.

http://www.airforcemag.com/SiteCollectionImages/Magazine%20Article%20Images/2011/October%202011/NatRep01.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

wxjumper
02-24-2014, 03:07 PM
I met him in person. The guy looks like he can be blown over by a stiff breeze.

TSat75
02-24-2014, 03:28 PM
Analyzing whatever? That shows you haven't got a clue about cyber operations. I know all about Cyber Command and the ones making it happen, are those who are hitting the gym on a regular basis, and taking care of their personal hygiene.

Stop trying to glamorize, not taking a shower and eating junk food.

Glamorize? Hell - I'm getting a kickback from Little Debbie. ;)

fufu
02-24-2014, 03:34 PM
If you want a general to look up to, I suggest that you use General Norton Schwartz, he's got it all.

Whip thin and wiry, he is the perfect combination of brains and brawn.

http://www.airforcemag.com/SiteCollectionImages/Magazine%20Article%20Images/2011/October%202011/NatRep01.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

That hair is def outta stds. How can we trust him to lead the force correctly? LOL

Get em!

Absinthe Anecdote
02-24-2014, 03:34 PM
Glamorize? Hell - I'm getting a kickback from Little Debbie. ;)

Disgusting! Just because you are in bed with that filthy little tramp, it is no reason to bring her around here.

Do you realize how many lives that little tart has ruined?

TSat75
02-24-2014, 03:36 PM
Disgusting! Just because you are in bed with that filthy little tramp, it is no reason to bring her around here.

Do you realize how many lives that little tart has ruined?

But she is sooooo sweet.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-24-2014, 03:37 PM
That hair is def outta stds. How can we trust him to lead the force correctly? LOL

Get em!

I think it is just the lighting in the room that makes it look like it is on his ears. Trust me, I happen to like this guy, so he isn't doing anything wrong.

USN - Retired
02-24-2014, 07:50 PM
Back when I was a carpenter back in the '70s, I worked for a guy who said he was a SeaBee and helped build Diego Garcia. He said it was round-the-clock work, but he also had many tales of drunken craziness.

What was it like when you were there?

I was there from 1993 until 1997. It was a one year assignment, but I kept extending my stay there. There are approximately 3000 people on Diego Garcia. Approximately half of them are military and the other half are contractors, mainly filipinos. There are also a small number of US civilian employees and also a small number of UK military on Diego Garcia. There is no indigenous population on Diego Garcia, and there never was an indigenous population on Diego Garcia. There was a coconut plantation on Diego Garcia many years ago, but it closed in the early 1970's. The workers at the coconut plantation were not indigenous to Diego Garcia, but some people like to pretend otherwise.

Diego Garcia is beautiful, even more beautiful than Hawaii. Diego Garcia is a very peaceful place.

However,....

There is no "off base" on Diego Garcia. It is an unaccompanied assignment and all military personnel and US civilian employees live in the BEQ or the BOQ. Living on Diego Garcia was like being back in high school, in both the good ways and also the bad ways . Most of the US military personnel on Diego Garcia acted like teenagers, especially when they were off duty. It was both amusing and annoying. Even so, I'd go back if I could.

Here's a picture of Diego Garcia:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Degar_sunset_from_cannon_point.jpg/800px-Degar_sunset_from_cannon_point.jpg

fufu
02-24-2014, 08:57 PM
I was there from 1993 until 1997. It was a one year assignment, but I kept extending my stay there. There are approximately 3000 people on Diego Garcia. Approximately half of them are military and the other half are contractors, mainly filipinos. There are also a small number of US civilian employees and also a small number of UK military on Diego Garcia. There is no indigenous population on Diego Garcia, and there never was an indigenous population on Diego Garcia. There was a coconut plantation on Diego Garcia many years ago, but it closed in the early 1970's. The workers at the coconut plantation were not indigenous to Diego Garcia, but some people like to pretend otherwise.

Diego Garcia is beautiful, even more beautiful than Hawaii. Diego Garcia is a very peaceful place.

However,....

There is no "off base" on Diego Garcia. It is an unaccompanied assignment and all military personnel and US civilian employees live in the BEQ or the BOQ. Living on Diego Garcia was like being back in high school, in both the good ways and also the bad ways . Most of the US military personnel on Diego Garcia acted like teenagers, especially when they were off duty. It was both amusing and annoying. Even so, I'd go back if I could.

Here's a picture of Diego Garcia:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Degar_sunset_from_cannon_point.jpg/800px-Degar_sunset_from_cannon_point.jpg

I was there in 02. One of the few times in my life I regretted not slowing down to enjoy the moment more. It really was awesome.

Sergeant eNYgma
02-25-2014, 08:50 PM
It's up and down it seems. Some people like me are somewhat sick of the AF in general but there are SrA and SSgt who are perfectly fine with everything going on. I'd say it's all over tbh.

As for me personally...my morale is a tad on the low side. These cuts combined with being the guy in the flight who does 2 special duties (Plus regular duties) it's like wtf? If we actually had bodies I can have someone take one of these ridiculous extra duties from me...throw in the lack of PCS'ing in my life (I do have a deployment thankfully coming) and yeah...not real enthused right now.

giggawatt
02-26-2014, 05:39 AM
I'm seeing the truth in this more and more as my career progresses. It isn't 100%, but folks that take care of themselves physically, tend to be more squared away on the job. The same with the uniform. Airmen that show pride in how they look tend to to take the same level of pride in their work. The inverse of those examples seems to be true as well. If this is a 9 - 5 job for ya, why look sharp or give that extra effort to do the best you can.

I have to agree with this post. Of course it's not 100% like just about everything but 2 CE guys can't be wrong.

sandsjames
02-26-2014, 12:16 PM
I have to agree with this post. Of course it's not 100% like just about everything but 2 CE guys can't be wrong.

True true...

I'm not sure how one looks sharp, or not sharp, in a uniform you don't press and boots you don't polish.

Stalwart
02-26-2014, 12:35 PM
True true...

I'm not sure how one looks sharp, or not sharp, in a uniform you don't press and boots you don't polish.

Sharp is hard, but to standards isn't. A clean uniform is a start, a haircut too ... boots that you can't polish still need to be cleaned off etc. I don't have a problem with a maintenance guy, infantryman etc getting dirty as they do their work, but if you depart your work area to go to admin or the HQ area you should be cleaned up. In the Marines when we went to the new 'digimon' cammies there was a slew of people trying to figure out how to starch the new uniform (even though we were specifically told not to due to the treatment for IR on the fabric.)

Even with the old uniform, I never starched my cammies or spit-shined boots, it kind of renders the uniform not usable for extended periods in the field with the starch being a irritant and too much wax pasting up the pores of the leather and not letting the leather breathe naturally. The best case being really smelly feet, the worst case being no kidding trench foot in the field. My uniforms (in garrison) were and now are always clean and servicable but I was & am much more OCD about my dress uniforms being 'post-ready' though.

SomeRandomGuy
02-26-2014, 01:40 PM
I have to agree with this post. Of course it's not 100% like just about everything but 2 CE guys can't be wrong.

Two CE guys? Here is a picture of two CE guys.

http://www.oshonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/idiots-2.jpg

sandsjames
02-26-2014, 01:55 PM
Two CE guys? Here is a picture of two CE guys.

http://www.oshonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/idiots-2.jpg

Yep...that's how we look from the confusion of why it takes 3 months to get a travel voucher paid.

giggawatt
02-26-2014, 02:52 PM
Two CE guys? Here is a picture of two CE guys.

http://www.oshonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/idiots-2.jpg

And are those not 2 faces you can trust?