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diabolic
02-02-2014, 01:25 AM
Have we become so PC that we are encouraging sympathetic feelings for people that bleed out of the ears when they hear a curse word or hear something that doesn't fall in to line with their beliefs? Are we at a point where discipline and being a part of the military has basically died and we've become a corporate enterprise?

I feel this is the current state of many flights in our Air Force. At least this is how things are treated in my office. Are we supposed to tread lightly around those who are too sensitive to the mission that the Air Force is tasked with?

Juggs
02-02-2014, 01:36 AM
Have we become so PC that we are encouraging sympathetic feelings for people that bleed out of the ears when they hear a curse word or hear something that doesn't fall in to line with their beliefs? Are we at a point where discipline and being a part of the military has basically died and we've become a corporate enterprise?

I feel this is the current state of many flights in our Air Force. At least this is how things are treated in my office. Are we supposed to tread lightly around those who are too sensitive to the mission that the Air Force is tasked with?

The AF has been corporate for a long time now. Since before I came in. I used to almost lose my mind when I would go to my wife's office and listen the whining and bitching. It was great being in an all male career field where if you had a problem you spoke up. Sometimes people took it under consideration, and sometime you got told to STFU.

BigBaze
02-02-2014, 01:44 AM
Have we become so PC that we are encouraging sympathetic feelings for people that bleed out of the ears when they hear a curse word or hear something that doesn't fall in to line with their beliefs? Are we at a point where discipline and being a part of the military has basically died and we've become a corporate enterprise?

I feel this is the current state of many flights in our Air Force. At least this is how things are treated in my office. Are we supposed to tread lightly around those who are too sensitive to the mission that the Air Force is tasked with?

That is correct, this is the new kindler gentler Air Force. Big Blue has not been about accomplishing the mission for some time now, or just is completely confused as to what its mission actually is. This is one of the reasons a lot of our best of brightest are getting out after originally planning on sticking it out for 20, along with constant benefits cuts and having their ideas being asked for by senior leadership on their base tours, and then in turn having them completely disregarded or ignored.

Don't worry, we will still continue to promote our yes men, box checkers and award winners, while the few people left that actually possess some kind of job proficiency will push the mission. At least there will be some awesome bake sales on base, I can't wait.

diabolic
02-02-2014, 02:10 AM
It's just ridiculous. I've been in for nearly 10 years, and it hasn't always been this way for me in my experience. I'm in a pretty good position now and it seems like any Joe-blow A1C can stroll in and complain about something and it puts the entire office in a bad situation because they are offended or feel like something isn't politically correct and everyone feels the wrath.

I'm not saying this is why the "climate assessment" was added to the feedback and EPR, but what I'm eluding to is that we are a military. We were assembled to defend and slaughter those who choose to impede on our happiness. Key word being slaughter... I feel like many of those who join today are more interested in getting some free tuition than putting bullets down range. Unfortunately, my AFSC isn't one of those known for lobbing bombs or bullets, but we have our place and understandably have a mission to support those who do. If you can't deal with what the nation asks of you, why do we keep ending up with these people in our military?

diabolic
02-02-2014, 02:12 AM
and sometime you got told to STFU.

Have done this a few times and have seen eyes swell with tears.. I can't deal with that shit.

Bunch
02-02-2014, 02:14 AM
Have we become so PC that we are encouraging sympathetic feelings for people that bleed out of the ears when they hear a curse word or hear something that doesn't fall in to line with their beliefs? Are we at a point where discipline and being a part of the military has basically died and we've become a corporate enterprise?

I feel this is the current state of many flights in our Air Force. At least this is how things are treated in my office. Are we supposed to tread lightly around those who are too sensitive to the mission that the Air Force is tasked with?

I agree that people that complain and/or whine when they are presented with something that they don't agree with should either present an alternative of zip it.

But how exactly cursing at people directly relates to instilling discipline? I think if you need to "talk down to people" you already failed as a supervisor/leader plus the working environment that results from that will not be one that could accomplish the mission or at least do so effectively.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 02:28 AM
Have done this a few times and have seen eyes swell with tears.. I can't deal with that shit.

That's when I asked them if want a reason to have excess water to be leaving their body. Like sweat. Unless you were dealing with death, divorce, or severe injury requiring immediate medical attention there were no tears at my desk.

I loved it when some little asshole would threaten to go to the IG and my boss would ask him if he wants a ride.

Needless to say, those worms were usually ran out of the career field. You couldn't trust them with anything never. Mind trusting them to have your back when shit hits the fan. Kind of like the rest of the AF these days. Talk brotherhood and unit cohesion yet it's every airman for the self. I'm so glad I'm out. From what I hear the guard actually still has some pride left in it.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 02:30 AM
I agree that people that complain and/or whine when they are presented with something that they don't agree with should either present an alternative of zip it.

But how exactly cursing at people directly relates to instilling discipline? I think if you need to "talk down to people" you already failed as a supervisor/leader plus the working environment that results from that will not be one that could accomplish the mission or at least do so effectively.

Sometimes cursing can emphasize a point as many of these young folks use curse words in their every day language anyhow. Also, after yrs of using curse words some little whiner gets offended by it and you're the one that is supposed to change.

Yes many times cursing appears unprofessional but in certain groups cursing is actually part of the environment.

Talking down to somebody doesn't necessarily mean you've failed as a supervisor. Sometimes people are just arrogant assholes that won't listen to instructions/orders. Act disrespectful to folks above them.

Some folks sneak through basic and still can't conform, make it through tech school somehow and yet think because they graduated a simple school they aren't touchable. Those little DBs usually had the talking down coming to them.

Airborne
02-02-2014, 02:33 AM
It's just ridiculous. I've been in for nearly 10 years, and it hasn't always been this way for me in my experience. I'm in a pretty good position now and it seems like any Joe-blow A1C can stroll in and complain about something and it puts the entire office in a bad situation because they are offended or feel like something isn't politically correct and everyone feels the wrath.

I'm not saying this is why the "climate assessment" was added to the feedback and EPR, but what I'm eluding to is that we are a military. We were assembled to defend and slaughter those who choose to impede on our happiness. Key word being slaughter... I feel like many of those who join today are more interested in getting some free tuition than putting bullets down range. Unfortunately, my AFSC isn't one of those known for lobbing bombs or bullets, but we have our place and understandably have a mission to support those who do. If you can't deal with what the nation asks of you, why do we keep ending up with these people in our military?

100% tuition assistance is one of the best and worst things that's happened to the enlisted force in a while.

diabolic
02-02-2014, 02:33 AM
I think if you need to "talk down to people" you already failed as a supervisor/leader plus the working environment that results from that will not be one that could accomplish the mission or at least do so effectively.

Valid point. In my case that was presented, I do not curse or talk down to people. I'm speaking of general "cursing" in the work place. Like when you take a sip of that delicious hot coffee in the morning but it burned your mouth and you shout "Great Grandmothers spatula, that f*cking burns!". If you get bent out of shape over things like that, you should probably join the Peace Corps.

diabolic
02-02-2014, 02:42 AM
Sometimes cursing can emphasize a point as many of these young folks use curse words in their every day language anyhow. Also, after yrs of using curse words some little whiner gets offended by it and you're the one that is supposed to change.

Yes many times cursing appears unprofessional but in certain groups cursing is actually part of the environment.

Talking down to somebody doesn't necessarily mean you've failed as a supervisor. Sometimes people are just arrogant assholes that won't listen to instructions/orders. Act disrespectful to folks above them.

Some folks sneak through basic and still can't conform, make it through tech school somehow and yet think because they graduated a simple school they aren't touchable. Those little DBs usually had the talking down coming to them.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I was correcting a new Airmen the other day about something and she mentioned that at her previous base this particular task was acceptable. She even brought up that they were trained at the tech school on the task. That doesn't mean crap if you're doing the task wrong to begin with. This was followed up with harsh negativity and hurt feelings pouring from the eyes and mouth from her.

Bunch
02-02-2014, 02:49 AM
Sometimes cursing can emphasize a point as many of these young folks use curse words in their every day language anyhow. Also, after yrs of using curse words some little whiner gets offended by it and you're the one that is supposed to change.
Let me ask you this... In what type of work environment does cursing at subordinates is consider acceptable behavior? I think is the fastest way to get fired or get sued, probably both.


Yes many times cursing appears unprofessional but in certain groups cursing is actually part of the environment.
I know what you mean, still doesn't mean is appropiate.


Talking down to somebody doesn't necessarily mean you've failed as a supervisor. Sometimes people are just arrogant assholes that won't listen to instructions/orders. Act disrespectful to folks above them.

Then as a supervisor you need to take appropiate steps to separate this person from the service. IMO, that would teach a better lesson to the person and to the unit as a whole.


Some folks sneak through basic and still can't conform, make it through tech school somehow and yet think because they graduated a simple school they aren't touchable. Those little DBs usually had the talking down coming to them.

Again your job as a supervisor isn't to babysit or talk down to people, you job is to keep the mission going, if someone doesn't conform then do what's necessary to have this person separated from service.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 02:54 AM
It's acceptable in an environment when my job is to find and kill the enemy.

Good thing I didnt work in a corporate setting or I would've been fired. I worked where your job was to kill as many as needed to ensure your brothers survival. I don't need people with thin skin. I need mentally and physically tough people.

Bunch
02-02-2014, 02:55 AM
Valid point. In my case that was presented, I do not curse or talk down to people. I'm speaking of general "cursing" in the work place. Like when you take a sip of that delicious hot coffee in the morning but it burned your mouth and you shout "Great Grandmothers spatula, that f*cking burns!". If you get bent out of shape over things like that, you should probably join the Peace Corps.

Yeah... Thats way overboard for someone to complain for something like that. I don't mind that type of cursing or the regular curse word that's thrown around when having a jovial conversation around the workplace.

Bunch
02-02-2014, 03:03 AM
It's acceptable in an environment when my job is to find and kill the enemy.

Good thing I didnt work in a corporate setting or I would've been fired. I worked where your job was to kill as many as needed to ensure your brothers survival. I don't need people with thin skin. I need mentally and physically tough people.

No need to get defensive about it.

I used to work in CE which is a different culture from recruiting. CE is blue collar type and cursing was normal although I never had a supervisor (good or bad) that cursed at people. Recruiting is more corporate so is an environment that if you do a lot of cursing you will be looked at the wrong way.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 03:51 AM
No need to get defensive about it.

I used to work in CE which is a different culture from recruiting. CE is blue collar type and cursing was normal although I never had a supervisor (good or bad) that cursed at people. Recruiting is more corporate so is an environment that if you do a lot of cursing you will be looked at the wrong way.


Not defensive. Yes, CE is blue collar. However, it isn't the same as my world. I had sq sups, shirts, commanders any supervisors the cursed. It was part of life.

wxjumper
02-02-2014, 03:56 AM
It's acceptable in an environment when my job is to find and kill the enemy.

Good thing I didnt work in a corporate setting or I would've been fired. I worked where your job was to kill as many as needed to ensure your brothers survival. I don't need people with thin skin. I need mentally and physically tough people.This. I am in an environment right now where the Commander says things like "why haven't we killed any mother fuckers today" and swears about every other word when talking to us (however, it is important to note he is not swearing AT us, it is just part of his vernacular). With U.S. Soldiers in danger and still sustaining casualties in this war, the last thing we need is some Corporate desk flying politically correct blue kool'aid drinkin Air Force Nancy taking issue with the way the Commander wants to communicate in this environment.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 04:13 AM
This. I am in an environment right now where the Commander says things like "why haven't we killed any mother fuckers today" and swears about every other word when talking to us (however, it is important to note he is not swearing AT us, it is just part of his vernacular). With U.S. Soldiers in danger and still sustaining casualties in this war, the last thing we need is some Corporate desk flying politically correct blue kool'aid drinkin Air Force Nancy taking issue with the way the Commander wants to communicate in this environment.


Exactly. That's all.

Bunch
02-02-2014, 04:18 AM
Not defensive. Yes, CE is blue collar. However, it isn't the same as my world. I had sq sups, shirts, commanders any supervisors the cursed. It was part of life.

As far as that goes then is not my place to opine because I never been exposed to that type of work center. The closest that I've been to special ops is crossing paths with some TACP's and SERE guys at ALS and recruiting school. The TACP guy that was in my class cursed a lot, not the mad type though he just couldn't say a sentence without a curse word. Great guy to be around, he was a TSGT and had one MSM already and during class it was announced that he was approved for a 2nd one. You could tell by the way he spoke and carried himself that something was "different". Then come to know that he has not been on an Air Force base for the longest. He had spent many of his years of service on Army installations or deployed with Army so he had absorbed much more Army culture than Air Force which at this point is debatable to say if that's a good or bad thing.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 04:22 AM
As far as that goes then is not my place to opine because I never been exposed to that type of work center. The closest that I've been to special ops is crossing paths with some TACP's and SERE guys at ALS and recruiting school. The TACP guy that was in my class cursed a lot, not the mad type though he just couldn't say a sentence without a curse word. Great guy to be around, he was a TSGT and had one MSM already and during class it was announced that he was approved for a 2nd one. You could tell by the way he spoke and carried himself that something was "different". Then come to know that he has not been on an Air Force base for the longest. He had spent many of his years of service on Army installations or deployed with Army so he had absorbed much more Army culture than Air Force which at this point is debatable if that's a good or bad thing.

Exactly. I was TACP for 11 yrs. I hated being on an AF when I was JTAC instructor on Nellis. The only thing AF about TACPs is the name tape......when they wear them.

Bunch
02-02-2014, 04:25 AM
Exactly. I was TACP for 11 yrs. I hated being on an AF when I was JTAC instructor on Nellis. The only thing AF about TACPs is the name tape......when they wear them.

TACP guy that was in my class used to say "We are Army guys who get to wear AF uniforms"

fufu
02-02-2014, 04:29 AM
Dont lump SERE guys with TACP. Sere is extreme camping.

Bunch
02-02-2014, 04:38 AM
Dont lump SERE guys with TACP. Sere is extreme camping.

Hey... They still get to wear that beret!! Or do they? I don't know it's been a while since a cross path with one.

giggawatt
02-02-2014, 05:11 AM
At my first duty station the command chief briefed us first term airmen at FTAC. He made it clear in that briefing that our job, no matter what our AFSC was, our job is to kill people. If you can't handle that fact, you might want to find a different line of work. If you can't handle a little casual cursing in every day conversation, I got some bad news for you.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-02-2014, 10:48 AM
Have we become so PC that we are encouraging sympathetic feelings for people that bleed out of the ears when they hear a curse word or hear something that doesn't fall in to line with their beliefs? Are we at a point where discipline and being a part of the military has basically died and we've become a corporate enterprise?

I feel this is the current state of many flights in our Air Force. At least this is how things are treated in my office. Are we supposed to tread lightly around those who are too sensitive to the mission that the Air Force is tasked with?


Are you really complaining about not being able to spout curse words anywhere you want to?

That is nothing new, and I fail to see how cursing is linked in anyway to mission accomplishment.

Please explain what your beef is, because if it is not being able to cuss in every situation, you are being silly.

BigBaze
02-02-2014, 11:42 AM
Hey... They still get to wear that beret!! Or do they? I don't know it's been a while since a cross path with one.


Yeah they still do

sandsjames
02-02-2014, 12:04 PM
Valid point. In my case that was presented, I do not curse or talk down to people. I'm speaking of general "cursing" in the work place. Like when you take a sip of that delicious hot coffee in the morning but it burned your mouth and you shout "Great Grandmothers spatula, that f*cking burns!". If you get bent out of shape over things like that, you should probably join the Peace Corps.

Just wanted to repost this part of your statement, since people seemed to ignore your comments and assume you were just talking about swearing at others for no reason.

I think you make a great point. I don't have an issue with it. If you can't drop an F bomb once in a while then people really need to toughen up a little and get over themselves.

The opposite is the person who uses it as a crutch, every other word. That gets real annoying and I've told people to tone it down a little. Swearing is not unprofessional. Using it as a crutch (whether a swear word or not) is very unprofessional.

Stalwart
02-02-2014, 12:13 PM
It's acceptable in an environment when my job is to find and kill the enemy.

That is not the actual job of MOST people in the USAF, USA, USN or even USMC. The vast majority are in support roles, supporting someone who actually is doing the killing. When in the Marines, I was an infantryman ... my job was to do it, my job in the Navy is supporting those that do it. Even for those whose job it is ... you should be professional.


I think you make a great point. I don't have an issue with it. If you can't drop an F bomb once in a while then people really need to toughen up a little and get over themselves.

The opposite is the person who uses it as a crutch, every other word. That gets real annoying and I've told people to tone it down a little. Swearing is not unprofessional. Using it as a crutch (whether a swear word or not) is very unprofessional.
sandsjames exactly the point. Swearing in and of itself is not unprofessional and can be warranted, swearing for the sake of swearing is ... and lends me to generally assume the individual lacks sufficient vocabulary to get the point across otherwise.

Yes, some people today are too sensitive and probably need to grow a thicker skin. That said, to think that a work environment is appropriate for an 'anything goes' atmosphere is wrong as well.

sandsjames
02-02-2014, 12:15 PM
sandsjames exactly the point. Swearing in an of itself is not unprofessional and can be warranted, swearing for the sake of swearing is ... and lends me to generally assume the individual lacks sufficient vocabulary to get the point across otherwise.

Yes, some people today are too sensitive and probably need to grow a thicker skin. That said, to think that a work environment is appropriate for an 'anything goes' atmosphere is wrong as well.

Agree. It doesn't even necessarily have to be swearing. There are many forms of unprofessional speech that have nothing to do with swearing.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 12:53 PM
Yes they can still wear berets and I have no idea how they warrant them.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 12:59 PM
I cursed in the work place, back in the office. However I could complete a sentence without using one. When I was teaching I great limited my use of them. However in the back office or eating with the rest of my guys I let my guard down, if we were in the field I used them. Suck as when a student almost had an F16 strafe my op I let out an are you f*cking kidding me. Or when I had an AGM65 go full retard and smack 180m north of us instead of 2km ne I let out several of them, and probably didnt repeat any. I want a new recruiting slogan for TACP. No thin skinned bitches need apply.

Chief_KO
02-02-2014, 01:05 PM
More and more "support" Airmen are finding themselves in harms way than ever before. The old AF that only sent the aircrews off to kill is long gone. The flying squadrons & their associated maintenance squadrons leave and return with fanfare (often to a "full-up base w/as much or more facilities as home station), while many times the "support" Airman leave and return quietly from the local airport to a small outpost where they face a whole series of challenges far beyond their AFSC. Often times they go there "alone" without the support of a fellow Airman from home. The days of being in the "rear with the gear" are no more.

Regarding cursing: A well placed, clearly articulated F-bomb or other word can have a great impact...speaking it every third word (as noun, verb, adverb, adjective) turns the entire statement into nothing but white noise.

imnohero
02-02-2014, 01:09 PM
I don't think the point is about cursing. The point is about the "thin skinned" nature of some people, and what can be seen as a culture that caters to that nature instead of saying "toughen up." You don't have to be a "shooting AFSC" to encounter this attitude or culture, though I do agree with Juggs on that front...if your in the shooting war, you should be of tougher stuff. Maybe because was I in "operations" my whole career, my attitude was more "no crying, suck it up". Maybe a "softer" personality is needed in finance or medical, but the AF could do a better job of differentiating the needs of career fields. Contrary to popular belief, we are not all interchangable.

Chief_KO
02-02-2014, 01:16 PM
Interesting...where does this "thin skinned" "non-warrior" ethos start...
BMT is longer and tougher than in the 80's: trainees carry an M-16 almost non-stop (even have bayonet training), must complete a week long AEF training event to earn the title "Airman"
Tech school (even as far back as 98-02 when I taught) had much tougher military training requirements and more relative hands-on training than back the 80's
First duty station...could that be the source????

diabolic
02-02-2014, 01:21 PM
Are you really complaining about not being able to spout curse words anywhere you want to?

That is nothing new, and I fail to see how cursing is linked in anyway to mission accomplishment.

Please explain what your beef is, because if it is not being able to cuss in every situation, you are being silly.

I think you're missing the point. It isn't that I run around the office spewing filth from my mouth, which I don't.

What I'm implying is that as a collective, we've changed our attitude. Instead of focusing on important things like supporting down range operations or providing services to others, we've become focused on the feelings of people who are too sensitive. Think of it another way, remember last year when the AF went through every unit to make sure there was nothing offensive in the work place, like old heritage items for instance, and they had to be removed because someone got bent out of shape about it?

Now, I know you may say that "It probably wasn't professional to begin with..." or "As a supervisor...", just take a step back and view from another angle.

I hope this clears up the misconception.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-02-2014, 01:29 PM
Interesting...where does this "thin skinned" "non-warrior" ethos start...
BMT is longer and tougher than in the 80's: trainees carry an M-16 almost non-stop (even have bayonet training), must complete a week long AEF training event to earn the title "Airman"
Tech school (even as far back as 98-02 when I taught) had much tougher military training requirements and more relative hands-on training than back the 80's
First duty station...could that be the source????

That's an interesting perspective. Most new airmen only get tarnished and pick up bad habits after they get to their first duty station and get exposed to the career whiners.

I think one could even make a convincing case that the person who complains about others being "thin skinned" is actually the one who needs to toughen up.

If a supervisor isn't dynamic enough to recognize that not all troops respond to cussing and screaming, it seems like he might be the one with the problem.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-02-2014, 01:41 PM
I think you're missing the point. It isn't that I run around the office spewing filth from my mouth, which I don't.

What I'm implying is that as a collective, we've changed our attitude. Instead of focusing on important things like supporting down range operations or providing services to others, we've become focused on the feelings of people who are too sensitive. Think of it another way, remember last year when the AF went through every unit to make sure there was nothing offensive in the work place, like old heritage items for instance, and they had to be removed because someone got bent out of shape about it?

Now, I know you may say that "It probably wasn't professional to begin with..." or "As a supervisor...", just take a step back and view from another angle.

I hope this clears up the misconception.

Is that really the case?

Are we really forsaking down-range operations for the feelings of "too-sensitive" people?

Perhaps you are over-reacting to the offensive material in the work-place purge?

Having to be respectful to others, especially your subordinates, shouldn't be seen as a burden. It should not cause the supervisor to over-react and start pouting and calling others thin-skinned.

diabolic
02-02-2014, 02:11 PM
Is that really the case?

Are we really forsaking down-range operations for the feelings of "too-sensitive" people?

Perhaps you are over-reacting to the offensive material in the work-place purge?

Having to be respectful to others, especially your subordinates, shouldn't be seen as a burden. It should not cause the supervisor to over-react and start pouting and calling others thin-skinned.

What I've presented to you were general examples. While you do offer some great points, I still think you are missing the overall point. And I'm not sure if presenting another instance or example will help you understand the overall message that I'm trying to convey.

I think we can both agree that the Air Force has transformed itself over the last decade, even longer than that, to what it is today. We are professionals, we are individuals, we serve a greater purpose than our own. If you were to talk to my subordinates, you would find that I am a great supervisor who knows them and can relate to them. I understand that each Airman is different and responds differently. However, one overly sensitive person can change the dynamics of the office. It can have an affect on those who directly work with that person. It has nothing to do with pouting.

waveshaper2
02-02-2014, 02:33 PM
More and more "support" Airmen are finding themselves in harms way than ever before. The old AF that only sent the aircrews off to kill is long gone. The flying squadrons & their associated maintenance squadrons leave and return with fanfare (often to a "full-up base w/as much or more facilities as home station), while many times the "support" Airman leave and return quietly from the local airport to a small outpost where they face a whole series of challenges far beyond their AFSC. Often times they go there "alone" without the support of a fellow Airman from home. The days of being in the "rear with the gear" are no more.

Regarding cursing: A well placed, clearly articulated F-bomb or other word can have a great impact...speaking it every third word (as noun, verb, adverb, adjective) turns the entire statement into nothing but white noise.

Valid point. It seems that since 9-11 things have changed somewhat in USAF. We now have a new class of what I call the "Quietest Professionals". These new "bad azzess" are reluctant/silent hero's. Their actions have gone "way above and beyond" what traditionally was expected of airman in support AFSC. These "Quietest Professionals" do not care that they are not worthy of warrior status even though they have suffered as many if not more casualties then the Air Force's traditional warriors. These guys and gals are content being called support troops and when needed will go into harms way with no fanfare or false bravado.

garhkal
02-02-2014, 02:50 PM
I feel like many of those who join today are more interested in getting some free tuition than putting bullets down range. Unfortunately, my AFSC isn't one of those known for lobbing bombs or bullets, but we have our place and understandably have a mission to support those who do. If you can't deal with what the nation asks of you, why do we keep ending up with these people in our military?

When i was stationed at a Sub hunting site in England (St Mawgan) 2 of our newer computer guys flat out admitted to that. Joining to get as many certifications, college training etc, as they could get their little grubby hands on, but if they ever got deployed to a war zone would quickly claim conscientious objector status. Which is why i always felt that those benefits (TA, GI bill etc) should be held off till someone re-enlists.
Not just given to every tom dick and harry who comes in for 3 yrs.


Sometimes cursing can emphasize a point as many of these young folks use curse words in their every day language anyhow. Also, after yrs of using curse words some little whiner gets offended by it and you're the one that is supposed to change.

And the ones that get me more are those who go around calling each other "my N(#@$)@(" but as soon as they hear someone outside of their "clique" say it to them, all heck breaks loose.

sandsjames
02-02-2014, 02:55 PM
What I've presented to you were general examples. While you do offer some great points, I still think you are missing the overall point. And I'm not sure if presenting another instance or example will help you understand the overall message that I'm trying to convey.

I think we can both agree that the Air Force has transformed itself over the last decade, even longer than that, to what it is today. We are professionals, we are individuals, we serve a greater purpose than our own. If you were to talk to my subordinates, you would find that I am a great supervisor who knows them and can relate to them. I understand that each Airman is different and responds differently. However, one overly sensitive person can change the dynamics of the office. It can have an affect on those who directly work with that person. It has nothing to do with pouting.

I'll try to help again. You'll have to realize that AA will only look at your post as if you are bitching about stuff.

I think this is an example of what you may be talking about:

(Standing at the smoke pit)

"I needed this cigarette so fucking bad."

(Other troop goes inside to the bosses office)

"MSgt so-and-so, SSgt Smokerton just said the "F" word and I find it offensive".

Is this what you are getting at?

If so, then yes, this person needs to get thicker skin.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-02-2014, 03:25 PM
I'll try to help again. You'll have to realize that AA will only look at your post as if you are bitching about stuff.

I think this is an example of what you may be talking about:

(Standing at the smoke pit)

"I needed this cigarette so fucking bad."

(Other troop goes inside to the bosses office)

"MSgt so-and-so, SSgt Smokerton just said the "F" word and I find it offensive".

Is this what you are getting at?

If so, then yes, this person needs to get thicker skin.

Great example and very realistic.

All the crude trouble markers are usually also tobacco users that waste half the day in the smoke pit.

I hope you'll finish that story and have the MSgt convince the Base Commander to abolish all smoking and cursing on base. There is no reason that we can't have smoke-free and cuss-free bases.

That Smokerton guy sounds like a real bad apple, when you finish the story, you should have him fail a PT test because of smoking and get kicked out.

*Bladeless
02-02-2014, 03:35 PM
That's an interesting perspective. Most new airmen only get tarnished and pick up bad habits after they get to their first duty station and get exposed to the career whiners.

I think one could even make a convincing case that the person who complains about others being "thin skinned" is actually the one who needs to toughen up.

If a supervisor isn't dynamic enough to recognize that not all troops respond to cussing and screaming, it seems like he might be the one with the problem.

When I see people on here complaining about things in the AF being "too PC", it usually means their teats are in a bunch because they cant run around saying their "witty" jokes about gays, women and minorities and freely throwing around curse words and sexual innuendo/double entendres in an office environment. Or they want to REALLY spice up their story about how drunk they got last weekend..:friday: :drunk:

I don't think any one is going to pull a 341 from you about a an F-bomb or six thrown out in a combat situation. How anyone can sit around and preach professionalism and discipline, then turn around and want to whisper the "joke about the blonde" is beyond me. Also, the reality is now that there are gay people freely serving in the AF, it might not really be the best thing in the world to call something you are irritated with "that's phukkin ghey" in an office full of people....There is no place for that crap in today's AF. Prejudicial to good order and discipline and such...

jshiver15
02-02-2014, 04:01 PM
This definitely isn't a case of only the Air Force becoming more kind and gentle. Working with the Army, I'm seeing an older generation of NCOs having the rug swept out from beneath them by new policy that protects young Soldiers from discipline deemed too "abrasive" for the work place. In fact, a majority of the Article 15s we've seen in our shared drive are either from E5's and below getting a DUI or E6-E8s being reprimanded for being too harsh to younger Soldiers. My buddy is an O2 at Benning and it seems like a good bit of his job is having to hear about some Private who got butt-hurt (pun intended) over being yelled at by an NCO. And now these complaints are being legitimately processed and dealt with.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-02-2014, 04:03 PM
When I see people on here complaining about things in the AF being "too PC", it usually means their teats are in a bunch because they cant run around saying their "witty" jokes about gays, women and minorities and freely throwing around curse words and sexual innuendo/double entendres in an office environment. Or they want to REALLY spice up their story about how drunk they got last weekend..:friday: :drunk:

I don't think any one is going to pull a 341 from you about a an F-bomb or six thrown out in a combat situation. How anyone can sit around and preach professionalism and discipline, then turn around and want to whisper the "joke about the blonde" is beyond me. Also, the reality is now that there are gay people freely serving in the AF, it might not really be the best thing in the world to call something you are irritated with "that's phukkin ghey" in an office full of people....There is no place for that crap in today's AF. Prejudicial to good order and discipline and such...

You just put a nail in the center of a 5MT, while hitting said nail, squarely on the head.

I think the mods should lock this thread because there is no point discussing this any more after you summed it up in such a brilliant manner.

jshiver15
02-02-2014, 04:04 PM
I don't think any one is going to pull a 341 from you about a an F-bomb or six thrown out in a combat situation. How anyone can sit around and preach professionalism and discipline, then turn around and want to whisper the "joke about the blonde" is beyond me. Also, the reality is now that there are gay people freely serving in the AF, it might not really be the best thing in the world to call something you are irritated with "that's phukkin ghey" in an office full of people....There is no place for that crap in today's AF. Prejudicial to good order and discipline and such...

There's a lesbian in my unit and I tell her things are "fucking gay" all the time. But it's mostly just to mess with her. She also says things like "straighter than missionary" or "as straight as Christianity". So, it evens out.

jshiver15
02-02-2014, 04:08 PM
That's an interesting perspective. Most new airmen only get tarnished and pick up bad habits after they get to their first duty station and get exposed to the career whiners.

This is a HUGE issue in Weather. For the past several years all new Airmen go to a hub, which is full of bitter NCOs who don't want to be there. Right now I'm currently dealing with unfucking my first troop because of all of the bad habits he's picked up from being at a hub. Things like saying "dude" to NCOs, calling them by their first name, complete apathy for customs and courtesies. Otherwise, the guy is an outstanding troop. But it's taking some work unteaching him a bunch of habits some bitters asshats instilled in him for 3 years.

sandsjames
02-02-2014, 04:11 PM
When I see people on here complaining about things in the AF being "too PC", it usually means their teats are in a bunch because they cant run around saying their "witty" jokes about gays, women and minorities and freely throwing around curse words and sexual innuendo/double entendres in an office environment. Or they want to REALLY spice up their story about how drunk they got last weekend..:friday: :drunk:

I don't think any one is going to pull a 341 from you about a an F-bomb or six thrown out in a combat situation. How anyone can sit around and preach professionalism and discipline, then turn around and want to whisper the "joke about the blonde" is beyond me. Also, the reality is now that there are gay people freely serving in the AF, it might not really be the best thing in the world to call something you are irritated with "that's phukkin ghey" in an office full of people....There is no place for that crap in today's AF. Prejudicial to good order and discipline and such...

What does any of this have to do with saying "Fuck" at the smoke pit? Ahhh...must bet he snowball effect, huh? Swearing is a gateway to disrespecting people?

I promise you the ones complaining are the ones with moms on the PTA carpooling to soccer practice. The same ones who never tell their children when they've screwed up because it will hurt their development.

sandsjames
02-02-2014, 04:12 PM
There's a lesbian in my unit and I tell her things are "fucking gay" all the time. But it's mostly just to mess with her. She also says things like "straighter than missionary" or "as straight as Christianity". So, it evens out.

Until you piss her off for real, then you're screwed, whether she was doing the same thing or not.

DWWSWWD
02-02-2014, 04:28 PM
I met an 0-6 the other day through one of my teammates. This person used to work for him and wanted me to meet him. No shortage of f-this, f-that. Everyone loves him. Until something goes wrong. The first person that leaves with no medal or a 4 EPR and brings up command climate will get him rolled. I get this all the time..... You don't understand my culture. I can't speak without using this word or that one. Absolutely is bullshit. Folks think it's a short cut to remaining relevant and in with the sled dogs. Knock it off, you sound like a clown.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 04:30 PM
Great example and very realistic.

All the crude trouble markers are usually also tobacco users that waste half the day in the smoke pit.

I hope you'll finish that story and have the MSgt convince the Base Commander to abolish all smoking and cursing on base. There is no reason that we can't have smoke-free and cuss-free bases.

That Smokerton guy sounds like a real bad apple, when you finish the story, you should have him fail a PT test because of smoking and get kicked out.

Except those of us that disregard policy and use smokeless in tbe building and dont let it interfere without output. Boom.

No 15 minute chew break every hr.

jshiver15
02-02-2014, 04:31 PM
Until you piss her off for real, then you're screwed, whether she was doing the same thing or not.

Yeah, if it wasn't someone I was close with then I wouldn't do it. But this is a chick that once said "This shit is gayer than AIDS."

Absinthe Anecdote
02-02-2014, 05:34 PM
Except those of us that disregard policy and use smokeless in tbe building and dont let it interfere without output. Boom.

No 15 minute chew break every hr.

As long as you are swallowing the tobacco juice, it will be your little secret, but the minute you start spitting into soda cans and coffee cups, you'll need to get rid of the smokeless tobacco.

Besides, haven't you watched any AFN commercials about how bad smokeless tobacco is?

Juggs
02-02-2014, 05:52 PM
Great example and very realistic.

All the crude trouble markers are usually also tobacco users that waste half the day in the smoke pit.

I hope you'll finish that story and have the MSgt convince the Base Commander to abolish all smoking and cursing on base. There is no reason that we can't have smoke-free and cuss-free bases.

That Smokerton guy sounds like a real bad apple, when you finish the story, you should have him fail a PT test because of smoking and get kicked out.


As long as you are swallowing the tobacco juice, it will be your little secret, but the minute you start spitting into soda cans and coffee cups, you'll need to get rid of the smokeless tobacco.

Besides, haven't you watched any AFN commercials about how bad smokeless tobacco is?

Much like a whiners feelings I didnt give a damn at the time.

However i did quit May of 2012 when my son asked me to.

Chief_KO
02-02-2014, 06:56 PM
When i was stationed at a Sub hunting site in England (St Mawgan) 2 of our newer computer guys flat out admitted to that. Joining to get as many certifications, college training etc, as they could get their little grubby hands on, but if they ever got deployed to a war zone would quickly claim conscientious objector status. Which is why i always felt that those benefits (TA, GI bill etc) should be held off till someone re-enlists.
Not just given to every tom dick and harry who comes in for 3 yrs.

I think the technical AFSCs have always had that attitude (and I was comm for 30 years). As a Chief I told by Airman "I don't care if your career lasts 4, 6, 12, 20, or 30 years; all I want is for to make your area better than it was when you got here." Qualifications + certifications = job opportunities, although I know of more than one former Airman who regretted leaving the AF thinking the grass was sooooo much greener on the other side.

Sgt_KO remembers back in the 80's that TA was 75% and became 90% when you put on SSgt. I think the 100% was done more for recruiting purposes than any other reason. Where the AF dropped the ball on TA was requiring supv approval and a rational policy regarding college classes downrange. Lots of opportunity to take classes at the Died, less and less and less at some FOB in Afghanistan. The recent change to how the AF implements 100% TA is spot on IMO.

garhkal
02-02-2014, 07:03 PM
Until you piss her off for real, then you're screwed, whether she was doing the same thing or not.

True. I have heard of a couple of guys who were 'razzing' on a co-worker (female) who was more than giving as good as she got in the insult dept, till one hit too close to home apparently, then she whined to the brass about how mean they were to her. Didn't matter to the brass she was also involved, just that guys picked on her.

Stalwart
02-02-2014, 07:06 PM
More and more "support" Airmen are finding themselves in harms way than ever before. The old AF that only sent the aircrews off to kill is long gone. The flying squadrons & their associated maintenance squadrons leave and return with fanfare (often to a "full-up base w/as much or more facilities as home station), while many times the "support" Airman leave and return quietly from the local airport to a small outpost where they face a whole series of challenges far beyond their AFSC. Often times they go there "alone" without the support of a fellow Airman from home. The days of being in the "rear with the gear" are no more.

True, earlier I just meant that most AFSC's, MOS's, ratings etc. are not 'trigger pullers' or bomb droppers (not that they are the only ones that kill people ... but ...) Many Admin Clerks etc. have found themselves standing post or on a convoy, things that are well outside their job description and some have done quite well when the crap hit the fan (MSgt Richard Pittman comes to mind -- Motor Transport truck driver who received the Medal of Honor -- the citation is out of this world) but again the majority of people in support jobs and many in combat arms these days have not been in combat and many that have forget that serving with the infantry, SOF or NSW for a deployment is different than living that life for an entire enlistment or career. One of the most mentally and physically tough Marines I knew was a very quiet and calm guy: hardly swore, never attracted much attention to himself and in general was a man of few words. But in combat he was a beast and I am better for having known him; he didn't need to compensate for anything he was capable of doing by putting on a façade of toughness for the sake of it.


Regarding cursing: A well placed, clearly articulated F-bomb or other word can have a great impact...speaking it every third word (as noun, verb, adverb, adjective) turns the entire statement into nothing but white noise.

+1 ... and I had to think about it and yes, the F-bomb is a grammatically versatile beast isn't it?

I have heard this 'soft' discussion in both the Marines and the Navy as well. It seems many people romanticize an era that for the most part did not actually exist and many of those who have been in the military regard through rose colored glasses the succeeding generation of servicemen and women as 'soft' or weak. Maybe folks today do want to be treated differently and are less tolerant of risqué things than I was when I was 18 or 19, maybe some people don't want to be exposed to crude humor, posters they find offensive etc. that does seem well within my ability as a leader to provide them a work atmosphere where they will be happy or content & productive. Seeing how we are asking them to do more with less, and taking away much of the 'fluff' that came with larger budgets it also impacts retention to keep people around.

Just as truly annoying as the thin-skinned whiners, are the people whining about the thin-skinned whiners.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 07:34 PM
Thats an asinine comment. Holding off those benefits for folks that reup? I had Airmen that did more in 4 yrs than some SNCOs do in career. Kids in 4 yrs deploy 3-4 times to iraq and Afghanistan, not kawait or Qatar. Actually going forward and taking care of business.

They earned their benefits.

Capt Alfredo
02-02-2014, 07:56 PM
Thats an asinine comment. Holding off those benefits for folks that reup? I had Airmen that did more in 4 yrs than some SNCOs do in career. Kids in 4 yrs deploy 3-4 times to iraq and Afghanistan, not kawait or Qatar. Actually going forward and taking care of business.

They earned their benefits.

Let's not forget that there is more to the military instrument of power than dropping bombs and killing people. Sometimes that's actually counterproductive.

Mcjohn1118
02-02-2014, 08:16 PM
I think the technical AFSCs have always had that attitude (and I was comm for 30 years). As a Chief I told by Airman "I don't care if your career lasts 4, 6, 12, 20, or 30 years; all I want is for to make your area better than it was when you got here." Qualifications + certifications = job opportunities, although I know of more than one former Airman who regretted leaving the AF thinking the grass was sooooo much greener on the other side.

Sgt_KO remembers back in the 80's that TA was 75% and became 90% when you put on SSgt. I think the 100% was done more for recruiting purposes than any other reason. Where the AF dropped the ball on TA was requiring supv approval and a rational policy regarding college classes downrange. Lots of opportunity to take classes at the Died, less and less and less at some FOB in Afghanistan. The recent change to how the AF implements 100% TA is spot on IMO.
Chief, funny you mention the 80s/90s and TA. I just came across my Basic Training manual from 1993. Do they still have manuals like this in BMT today? There are some things in here that I wonder if they teach anymore. Budgeting, how to balance a checkbook, sex education, the punitive articles of the UCMJ, just to name a few. In regards to TA, the manual reads in effect that TA will cover 75% of expected educational costs excluding books and fees. Oh and this little tidbit, "It is highly unlikely you'll be able to use TA in your first term, therefore enroll in MGIB to obtain your educational benefits." Another good one in the book is in regards to being on leave between tech school and your first assignment. Back in 1993, you were able to wear your service uniform while on leave but prohibited from wearing your BDUs. They were for "on-base use only." And finally, in the back of the book there is an Airman's Creed (nothing like the one we have today) and the 13 characteristics of an Airman. Here they are:
1. Think in war fighting terms
2. Possess a strong sense of mission
3. Exhibit a strong sense of pride in the AF
4. Be able to work as a member of a group
5. Exhibit a positive attitude
6. Provide leadership when the situation demands
7. Possess qualities of followership
8. Follow instructions
9. Carry out orders
10. Exhibit respect for authority
11. Demonstrate military bearing
12. Develop self-discipline
13. Possess integrity

Juggs
02-02-2014, 08:17 PM
Yea counter productive when the gov has the say.

I know there is more to the AF than that. I was making a point that you shouldnt short change one term enlistees.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-02-2014, 09:09 PM
Let's not forget that there is more to the military instrument of power than dropping bombs and killing people. Sometimes that's actually counterproductive.

Do you mean like in Team America when they knocked over the Eiffel Tower and blew up the Pyramids of Giza while chasing terrorists?

I think you are right. Sometimes we could just use the power of Hollywood to accomplish our national goals.

I think that might be what Dennis Rodman is doing in North Korea. He is using the power of "acting" on Kim Jung Un, trouble is, Dennis is not our best actor.

We need to send some of our front-line actors over there, like Alec Baldwin or Tim Robbins.

garhkal
02-03-2014, 05:29 AM
Thats an asinine comment. Holding off those benefits for folks that reup? I had Airmen that did more in 4 yrs than some SNCOs do in career. Kids in 4 yrs deploy 3-4 times to iraq and Afghanistan, not kawait or Qatar. Actually going forward and taking care of business.

They earned their benefits.

I take it that is towards my comment?

Yes some earn it, but i knew plenty in my time in who came in to serve their one enlistment and milked the mil for everything they could get, all the while doing all they could to stay stateside and not deploy.

fufu
02-03-2014, 08:49 PM
In 1999, I arrived at my first duty station. After a few months, my supervisor said, "A1C Fufu, what are your thoughts so far?".. "Well, I thought we'd be more military".

We had -0- uniform inspections, people called each other Bob or Jeff...but we were far from PC. Curse words, Skoal flowed freely and nobody cared either way. Yes, we had females in the section and she was as foul mouthed as us. (ACFT MX)

We were soft from a military stand point in 1999, but since then have become mega PC. We care about hurting someone's feelings.

I had some SSgt get all butt hurt cause I called the chow hall...the chow hall. He said, "It is a Dining Facility". I said, "Look it is a term of endearment, Chow Hall"!

sandsjames
02-03-2014, 10:16 PM
I take it that is towards my comment?

Yes some earn it, but i knew plenty in my time in who came in to serve their one enlistment and milked the mil for everything they could get, all the while doing all they could to stay stateside and not deploy.

The military is going to milk you for all they can get from you so why not do the same if you have the opportunity? You are nothing but a number. They aren't going to take care of you any better if you don't take advantage of every opportunity.

Not saying people should try to avoid deploying, because they shouldn't, but taking advantage of what the military lets you is fine by me.

Juggs
02-04-2014, 10:37 AM
I take it that is towards my comment?

Yes some earn it, but i knew plenty in my time in who came in to serve their one enlistment and milked the mil for everything they could get, all the while doing all they could to stay stateside and not deploy.

So because some milk their one enlistment no one enlistment veterans should get it? So by your stance, my former troop with a BSM with V, and Purple Heart, chunk of his calf missing and lost two fingers shouldn't get those benefits because of some lazy asshats

It's not just the battlefield airman that have this stuff either. There have been other Airmen in other AFSC injured in performance of homie hirer duties. I guess if they choose to leave instead of stay in the AF which will most likely treat them as a burden due to their injuries, they're not worthy of the gi bill.

Rusty Jones
02-04-2014, 02:36 PM
The big elephant that everyone in the room is ignoring is the greater presence of women in the military. The military was once an "all boys' club," and then certain units commands were "all boys' clubs." We still have a few today but, slowly but surely, they're all going away.

Men can't engage in crude language anymore, because they have to mind their P's and Q's around the ladies. That wasn't the case a couple of decades back.

Basic training/boot camp may have gotten soft over the decades, because of the integration - you can only push everyone as hard as you can push the females, and you can't use crude language at the recruits if you have females. I saw this first hand when I was in Great Lakes. I was in an all male division, and watched how differently we got it than the integrated divisions.

Mind you, I'm not griping about this at all. I really don't understand why anyone outside of combat arms in the Army or Marine Corps feels the need to act like they're "hard" in the first place.

sandsjames
02-04-2014, 02:50 PM
The big elephant that everyone in the room is ignoring is the greater presence of women in the military. The military was once an "all boys' club," and then certain units commands were "all boys' clubs." We still have a few today but, slowly but surely, they're all going away.

Men can't engage in crude language anymore, because they have to mind their P's and Q's around the ladies. That wasn't the case a couple of decades back.

Basic training/boot camp may have gotten soft over the decades, because of the integration - you can only push everyone as hard as you can push the females, and you can't use crude language at the recruits if you have females. I saw this first hand when I was in Great Lakes. I was in an all male division, and watched how differently we got it than the integrated divisions.

Mind you, I'm not griping about this at all. I really don't understand why anyone outside of combat arms in the Army or Marine Corps feels the need to act like they're "hard" in the first place.

Very true. Ran in to the same thing when I was a tech school instructor. The all male classes were so much more...relaxed...than classes with females, just because I didn't have to be as careful. And I'm not talking about jokes, etc...I'm talking about career field general stuff.

We work with a lot of cables, plugs, etc, and many of these things are described as male/female, and I found I had to be very careful in the way I explained things.

Also, the spouts on are fuel cans are called "donkey dicks", have been for as long as I can remember. But when there's a female in the class, the correct/proper term has to be used.

Rusty Jones
02-04-2014, 02:54 PM
Kind of reminds of, when I was in boot camp, they would make us do "monkey fuckers." In the integrated divisions, I think they were called "Jane Fondas."

CYBERFX1024
02-04-2014, 04:04 PM
Yes some earn it, but i knew plenty in my time in who came in to serve their one enlistment and milked the mil for everything they could get, all the while doing all they could to stay stateside and not deploy.

That's one of the biggest reasons I got disgusted with the Marine Corps at my last duty station at Parris Island. Some Marines were doing everything they could to avoid deployment, this being from PFC-1st Sgts. All the while the SNCO's were critiquing people for being bad Marines even though they haven't deployed since the First Gulf War, and I am sitting here with 2 CAR's, and 3 Deployment ribbons as a Corporal.

So I know how you feel.

garhkal
02-04-2014, 06:45 PM
So because some milk their one enlistment no one enlistment veterans should get it? So by your stance, my former troop with a BSM with V, and Purple Heart, chunk of his calf missing and lost two fingers shouldn't get those benefits because of some lazy asshats

It's not just the battlefield airman that have this stuff either. There have been other Airmen in other AFSC injured in performance of homie hirer duties. I guess if they choose to leave instead of stay in the AF which will most likely treat them as a burden due to their injuries, they're not worthy of the gi bill.

I am not saying NO ONE should get it, i am saying delay it till they re-enlist, as most of those i have seen milk it, were unwilling TO stay in. At least that would weed out some of those loafers.

Juggs
02-04-2014, 06:49 PM
I am not saying NO ONE should get it, i am saying delay it till they re-enlist, as most of those i have seen milk it, were unwilling TO stay in. At least that would weed out some of those loafers.

So for those that do their job and are motivated but chose to get out and pursue something else are "milking" the system? You really are what's wrong with the military. Look down upon those that decide to only do 4 and get out. Pathetic.

Rusty Jones
02-04-2014, 07:55 PM
I have to agree with Juggs. By joining the military, you joined an organization that can put you in danger of losing your life at any place or time. Why should anyone feel guilty about getting everything that they can from the military? That's WHY the benefits are there in the first place.

Juggs
02-04-2014, 08:34 PM
And if me and RJ agree, it must be right.

Measure Man
02-04-2014, 09:44 PM
I am not saying NO ONE should get it, i am saying delay it till they re-enlist, as most of those i have seen milk it, were unwilling TO stay in. At least that would weed out some of those loafers.

IME, you get more loafers among the guys that re-up than you do among the guys that do one term and get out.

I have no problem with anyone availing themselves of all the opportunities the military presents. Heck, most of my generation that joined in the 80s were not thinking about putting bullets downrange...war wasn't a thing the military really did back then...you joined for the education, travel and for a "great way to start" your life. That's not saying we weren't willing to, but it was peacetime, people didn't join the AF to go to war.

I also have no problem with someone who does not go out of their way to deploy, so long as they are willing to go when it is time to go. I would have a problem if someone would then pull conscientous objector or goes out of their way to avoid deployment.

Chief_KO
02-05-2014, 01:18 AM
The reasons for joining back in the 80's (Chief_KO BMT class of '82) had very very very little with serving and very very very much with improving one's life or just having some fun (see the world!). Those that join today are doing it more for the reasons that we thump our chests over, and I'm appreciative of every last one.

DWWSWWD
02-05-2014, 01:50 AM
Yep. 90% of the folks that come through my school joined after 9/11. That's a big deal to me and a different mindset that what we had in 1988. I was ready, there was just no place to go.

TomTom093
02-05-2014, 02:09 AM
Back on the original topic, I've seen both extremes. There's the person who threatens to call IG at the thought of hearing a swear word, but there's also the 18-year SSgt who swears at every chance and "tells it like it is" who needs something to cover the fact that he's a shitty NCO with outdated/racist/misogynistic opinions.

On the topic of withholding benefits because a few people milk the system, those that do the milking are few and far between. It isn't fair to the vast, VAST majority that meet their end of the bargain.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-05-2014, 02:16 AM
Back on the original topic, I've seen both extremes. There's the person who threatens to call IG at the thought of hearing a swear word, but there's also the 18-year SSgt who swears at every chance and "tells it like it is" who needs something to cover the fact that he's a shitty NCO with outdated/racist/misogynistic opinions.

On the topic of withholding benefits because a few people milk the system, those that do the milking are few and far between. It isn't fair to the vast, VAST majority that meet their end of the bargain.

I get so tired of people glorifying the "old school" crusty NCO; it's a fairy tale for the most part.

giggawatt
02-05-2014, 05:29 AM
bunch o' slacked jawed phaggots around here! I start every morning meeting like that.

jshiver15
02-05-2014, 10:57 AM
Yep. 90% of the folks that come through my school joined after 9/11. That's a big deal to me and a different mindset that what we had in 1988. I was ready, there was just no place to go.

I completely understand your point here, but I think that fact alone may partly contribute to why we, as service members, are being so coddled today. I remember being in basic training (2006) and almost every TI talked us up like we were the greatest thing since free porn on the Internet. We heard a lot of "You're the 1% that's making this world a better place" spiel. I get it, I really do. But when you start off a bunch of brand new 18-19 year old trainees thinking they're hot shit, then it's going to be harder to break them down and mold them into actual contributing members of the armed forces.

Obviously that's just a tiny contribution (IMO) to our current state of affairs.

BURAWSKI
02-06-2014, 12:04 AM
I get so tired of people glorifying the "old school" crusty NCO; it's a fairy tale for the most part.

I agree with you on this. It seems to me that a lot of the people who associate old school type service members seem to be referring to the Vietnam era veterans. That was a different time and I remember, although I was only 8 years old at the time. It is a myth probably perpetuated by Hollywood and unfounded legends.