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BRUWIN
01-30-2014, 10:33 PM
So if you look at the front of the AF Times.com today it's sories got something like this:

1. Deserted Shaw Capt arrested.

2. AFSOC Brig Gen fired for inappropriate relationship.

3. IG complaints against Maj Gen for cruel treatment substantiated.

4. _______(fill in the blank when they get a final tally) missile officers accused of cheating.

And that's just today....lets not forget everything else the past few months. Sounds like the officer shenanigans of the last 10-15 years is finally catching up with them.

sandsjames
01-30-2014, 10:36 PM
So if you look at the front of the AF Times.com today it's sories got something like this:

1. Deserted Shaw Capt arrested.

2. AFSOC Brig Gen fired for inappropriate relationship.

3. IG complaints against Maj Gen for cruel treatment substantiated.

4. _______(fill in the blank when they get a final tally) missile officers accused of cheating.

And that's just today....lets not forget everything else the past few months. Sounds like the officer shenanigans of the last 10-15 years is finally catching up with them.

'Bout time, too. Though we will obviously see more of this sort of thing as more stuff is considered inappropriate.

raider8169
01-30-2014, 10:38 PM
Sounds like a slow month to me.

BOSS302
01-30-2014, 10:44 PM
Adam L. Mathis
Stars and Stripes
Published: December 20, 2013

RAF MILDENHALL, England — An Air Force captain found guilty of attacking three people at RAF Mildenhall was sentenced Tuesday to 18 months’ confinement and dismissal from the service, a public affairs official said.

Capt. Jason L. Banegas was on temporary duty to Mildenhall last May when the incident took place, the official said. He was accused of swinging his fists at one person, head-butting a second person and slamming a third person’s “head against the floor with a force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm,” according to his charge sheet.

Banegas is assigned to the 45th Reconnaissance Squadron at Offutt Air Force Base, Neb.

LogDog
01-30-2014, 10:44 PM
So if you look at the front of the AF Times.com today it's sories got something like this:

1. Deserted Shaw Capt arrested.

2. AFSOC Brig Gen fired for inappropriate relationship.

3. IG complaints against Maj Gen for cruel treatment substantiated.

4. _______(fill in the blank when they get a final tally) missile officers accused of cheating.

And that's just today....lets not forget everything else the past few months. Sounds like the officer shenanigans of the last 10-15 years is finally catching up with them.
It wasn't too many years ago that we would have heard none of this as it would be swept under the rug to keep the AF from looking bad.

efmbman
01-30-2014, 11:36 PM
It seems to be the Air Force's turn. I'm sure there are plenty of Navy and Army scandals waiting for discovery.

fufu
01-31-2014, 03:33 AM
I think all these stories show you how fucked up the AF has become. These people are supposed to be setting the example and leading the enlisted force. The "core values" are a joke.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
01-31-2014, 04:20 AM
So if you look at the front of the AF Times.com today it's sories got something like this:

1. Deserted Shaw Capt arrested.

2. AFSOC Brig Gen fired for inappropriate relationship.

3. IG complaints against Maj Gen for cruel treatment substantiated.

4. _______(fill in the blank when they get a final tally) missile officers accused of cheating.

And that's just today....lets not forget everything else the past few months. Sounds like the officer shenanigans of the last 10-15 years is finally catching up with them.

Yet the vast majority of officers and enlisted are pretty damn good people. No excuse for these FEW shitbag officers, but no excuse for the s-bag enlisted either. You know, the dozen or so listed on each base's monthly Status of Discipline lists.

ChiefB
01-31-2014, 04:39 AM
Yet the vast majority of officers and enlisted are pretty damn good people. No excuse for these FEW shitbag officers, but no excuse for the s-bag enlisted either. You know, the dozen or so listed on each base's monthly Status of Discipline lists.

I guess we should be thankful that NONE of the enlisteds commands or leads thousands or is responsible for billions of taxpayers hard earned dollars or has their fingers on Armageddon's trigger...

imported_KnuckleDragger
01-31-2014, 04:47 AM
Adam L. Mathis
Stars and Stripes
Published: December 20, 2013

RAF MILDENHALL, England — An Air Force captain found guilty of attacking three people at RAF Mildenhall was sentenced Tuesday to 18 months’ confinement and dismissal from the service, a public affairs official said.

Capt. Jason L. Banegas was on temporary duty to Mildenhall last May when the incident took place, the official said. He was accused of swinging his fists at one person, head-butting a second person and slamming a third person’s “head against the floor with a force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm,” according to his charge sheet.

Banegas is assigned to the 45th Reconnaissance Squadron at Offutt Air Force Base, Neb.

Offutt is not looking good these days.

LOL. Who was the member on the forums, that would bad mouth Offutt every chance he could?

Bunch
01-31-2014, 05:21 AM
So if you look at the front of the AF Times.com today it's sories got something like this:

1. Deserted Shaw Capt arrested.

2. AFSOC Brig Gen fired for inappropriate relationship.

3. IG complaints against Maj Gen for cruel treatment substantiated.

4. _______(fill in the blank when they get a final tally) missile officers accused of cheating.

And that's just today....lets not forget everything else the past few months. Sounds like the officer shenanigans of the last 10-15 years is finally catching up with them.

I was talking to my wife to other day about this issue but in a larger perspective. I was talking to her about how or why the Air Force as an organization has become a breeding ground for corrupt people. Either be morally corrupt, ethically corrupt, financially corrupt or a combination of those it seems to me that at any level and in every corner of our organization someone is trying get ahead by being corrupt.

When you I hear about a senior leader (officer or enlisted) being convicted of making false travel vouchers, stolen property, improper use of GTC, other types of fraud, abusing power and all the other things we see almost every week I think it speaks about a problem that is deeply rooted in a culture of corruption.

My AFSC is a perfect example of that. Senior leaders get charged and convicted for submitting fake vouchers. People are absent from their workplaces for more than a week without taking leave, constantly forging documents and cutting corners to give the illusion that things are being done properly. When I was overseas OHA fraud was so rampant that one of the realtors sales pitch was to tell me "dont worry we can make it look that your paying the allowance max so you can pocket the extra money... Wink...wink".

Is so sad and disappointing to see this things happen but is more sickening when it comes from the top. I say that because it puts us the lower ranking in an impossible situation, you either join the cult of corruption or you are going to be labeled as "not trust worthy" at best or your career will be ruined at worst. I'm that guy in the workplace right now, the one no one trust, the one that doesn't get the invites, the one that causes everyone to lower their voices when around because I'm not worthy of their trust. All because I choose to be normal, because I choose day in and day out to do the right and honest thing. And I choose to do was right not because some "core values" that only serve to hang them on the wall, I do it because is just the way is supposed to be done. In my culture we have a saying that is also part of the English lexicon "no muerdas la mano que te da de comer" or "don't bite the hand that feeds you" and it appalls me the amount of people who bite this hand day in and day out.

wxjumper
01-31-2014, 05:51 AM
Adam L. Mathis
Stars and Stripes
Published: December 20, 2013

RAF MILDENHALL, England — An Air Force captain found guilty of attacking three people at RAF Mildenhall was sentenced Tuesday to 18 months’ confinement and dismissal from the service, a public affairs official said.

Capt. Jason L. Banegas was on temporary duty to Mildenhall last May when the incident took place, the official said. He was accused of swinging his fists at one person, head-butting a second person and slamming a third person’s “head against the floor with a force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm,” according to his charge sheet.

Banegas is assigned to the 45th Reconnaissance Squadron at Offutt Air Force Base, Neb.Would love to hear the back story on this one. Especially if it was in the work place and not at some bar.

wxjumper
01-31-2014, 05:52 AM
I think all these stories show you how fucked up the AF has become. These people are supposed to be setting the example and leading the enlisted force. The "core values" are a joke.LogDog hit the nail on the head, in the past most of these problems would either have never been exposed (no social media or cell phones back then to expose this stuff) or they would have been dealt with quietly.

These problems (Fraternization, Bosses abusing troops, cheating, etc.) have always been there in the past, if not more so. It is just much harder to get away with it these days.

BOSS302
01-31-2014, 08:10 AM
Yet the vast majority of officers and enlisted are pretty damn good people. No excuse for these FEW shitbag officers, but no excuse for the s-bag enlisted either. You know, the dozen or so listed on each base's monthly Status of Discipline lists.

For every officer we hear about who swings fists at someone, headbutts someone, or fails in their leadership duties, there are several enlisted members who have body slammed someone, received a DUI/ARI, or failed in their followership AND leadership duties.

Years ago at Robins, a mid-level officer on the Air Base Wing side of things received a DUI. It caused a stink due to it being the "DUI straw that broke the DUI camel's back." Several people were saying, "Omg brah, like yeah totally officers suck brah, yeah."

Sadly, this happened right around the time that SrA came onto base in his fatigues and carrying a combat knife & attacked the married couple in base housing.

Stripes or oak leaves...if a person is fucking stupid, they are going to eventually do something fucking stupid.

Stalwart
01-31-2014, 11:57 AM
LogDog hit the nail on the head, in the past most of these problems would either have never been exposed (no social media or cell phones back then to expose this stuff) or they would have been dealt with quietly.

These problems (Fraternization, Bosses abusing troops, cheating, etc.) have always been there in the past, if not more so. It is just much harder to get away with it these days.

I have said this same thing IRT the perceived increase in the numbers of Navy CO's relieved lately (granted -- 1 is too many). But if you actually query official records, the numbers are pretty consistent going back into the 50's; but unless you were at the Pentagon there just wasn't the means to really know about it from across the country or world until now. The biggest reason listed from the 50's, 60's 70's, & 80's (many of the specifics were not available on older records) was alcohol and adultery/personal issues ...

Stalwart
01-31-2014, 11:59 AM
Yet the vast majority of officers and enlisted are pretty damn good people. No excuse for these FEW shitbag officers, but no excuse for the s-bag enlisted either. You know, the dozen or so listed on each base's monthly Status of Discipline lists.

Exactly. The vast majority don't make headlines ... or become the subject of the really good stories we hear about via word-of-mouth years later.

imnohero
01-31-2014, 12:16 PM
I was talking to my wife to other day about this issue but in a larger perspective. I was talking to her about how or why the Air Force as an organization has become a breeding ground for corrupt people. Either be morally corrupt, ethically corrupt, financially corrupt or a combination of those it seems to me that at any level and in every corner of our organization someone is trying get ahead by being corrupt.

When you I hear about a senior leader (officer or enlisted) being convicted of making false travel vouchers, stolen property, improper use of GTC, other types of fraud, abusing power and all the other things we see almost every week I think it speaks about a problem that is deeply rooted in a culture of corruption.

My AFSC is a perfect example of that. Senior leaders get charged and convicted for submitting fake vouchers. People are absent from their workplaces for more than a week without taking leave, constantly forging documents and cutting corners to give the illusion that things are being done properly. When I was overseas OHA fraud was so rampant that one of the realtors sales pitch was to tell me "dont worry we can make it look that your paying the allowance max so you can pocket the extra money... Wink...wink".

Is so sad and disappointing to see this things happen but is more sickening when it comes from the top. I say that because it puts us the lower ranking in an impossible situation, you either join the cult of corruption or you are going to be labeled as "not trust worthy" at best or your career will be ruined at worst. I'm that guy in the workplace right now, the one no one trust, the one that doesn't get the invites, the one that causes everyone to lower their voices when around because I'm not worthy of their trust. All because I choose to be normal, because I choose day in and day out to do the right and honest thing. And I choose to do was right not because some "core values" that only serve to hang them on the wall, I do it because is just the way is supposed to be done. In my culture we have a saying that is also part of the English lexicon "no muerdas la mano que te da de comer" or "don't bite the hand that feeds you" and it appalls me the amount of people who bite this hand day in and day out.

This!

The problem is not really that these particular nuke officers, have cheated or didn't follow procedure. The problem is a continum of behavior that suggests a culture that at best tolerates unethical/illegal behavior and at worst promotes it. It extends beyond the nuclear community, to be sure, in big and small way, but just sticking with the nuke guys...this has been an almost constant thing in the news for a year now, one thing after another.

Seriously, how many of these incidents need to happen before the CSAF does something other than order a study or investigation?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
01-31-2014, 12:26 PM
I guess we should be thankful that NONE of the enlisteds commands or leads thousands or is responsible for billions of taxpayers hard earned dollars or has their fingers on Armageddon's trigger...

I hear ya. Thank God we only have enlisted people as RPA sensor operators, flight engineers, intel analysts, aircraft mechanics, security and other positions where they, unlike a launch officer, can single handedly screw something up and get somebody killed. :)

imported_chipotleboy
01-31-2014, 02:00 PM
20 years since the Black Hawk shootdown and nothing has changed except some faded Core Values posters on the wall.

SomeRandomGuy
01-31-2014, 02:11 PM
I was talking to my wife to other day about this issue but in a larger perspective. I was talking to her about how or why the Air Force as an organization has become a breeding ground for corrupt people. Either be morally corrupt, ethically corrupt, financially corrupt or a combination of those it seems to me that at any level and in every corner of our organization someone is trying get ahead by being corrupt.

When you I hear about a senior leader (officer or enlisted) being convicted of making false travel vouchers, stolen property, improper use of GTC, other types of fraud, abusing power and all the other things we see almost every week I think it speaks about a problem that is deeply rooted in a culture of corruption.

My AFSC is a perfect example of that. Senior leaders get charged and convicted for submitting fake vouchers. People are absent from their workplaces for more than a week without taking leave, constantly forging documents and cutting corners to give the illusion that things are being done properly. When I was overseas OHA fraud was so rampant that one of the realtors sales pitch was to tell me "dont worry we can make it look that your paying the allowance max so you can pocket the extra money... Wink...wink".

Is so sad and disappointing to see this things happen but is more sickening when it comes from the top. I say that because it puts us the lower ranking in an impossible situation, you either join the cult of corruption or you are going to be labeled as "not trust worthy" at best or your career will be ruined at worst. I'm that guy in the workplace right now, the one no one trust, the one that doesn't get the invites, the one that causes everyone to lower their voices when around because I'm not worthy of their trust. All because I choose to be normal, because I choose day in and day out to do the right and honest thing. And I choose to do was right not because some "core values" that only serve to hang them on the wall, I do it because is just the way is supposed to be done. In my culture we have a saying that is also part of the English lexicon "no muerdas la mano que te da de comer" or "don't bite the hand that feeds you" and it appalls me the amount of people who bite this hand day in and day out.

Youa re spot on with this analysis. It would surprise the average person how much travel fraud occurs. In the past I have reported things to OSI only to get the answer that they simply did not have time to investigate because it wasn't a big enough deal. There are plenty of people working the system and then claiming ignorance if they get caught. I don't think travel vouchers created this culture though.

If I had to point at one big culprit I would actually say that inspections have led to this culture. From day one in the AF we are taught that there are 2 ways to do things. The by the book way and the way it's actually done. When it comes time for inspections why do we always need like 6 months to a year to prepare? Because we have to go back and make it look like we have been doing it by the book the whole time. This gives the appearance that AF leadership doesn't care if you do it the right way as long as it looks like you did. It becomes a slippery slope once you start backdating appointment letters and falsifying documents. If you are going to cheat on an inspection is it really a big jump to cheat on a test like the missille officers are accused? This attitude then permeates all throughout the AF. It has been around so long that the leaders we have now weer even raised in this culture. Why would anyone ever be worried about being held accountable when we have been cheating inspections for at least 10 years and probably way longer than that.

BENDER56
01-31-2014, 03:15 PM
It wasn't too many years ago that we would have heard none of this as it would be swept under the rug to keep the AF from looking bad.

Maybe. I've got nothing more to go on but my memory which, like all humans, is faulty, but I seem to remember back in the late '80s and early '90s that a week wouldn't go by without some story in the AF Times or the Stars & Stripes about some major malfeasance occurring at some base somewhere. As I recall, stealing government property and selling it on the black market seemed to be popular back then.

Measure Man
01-31-2014, 03:27 PM
This!

The problem is not really that these particular nuke officers, have cheated or didn't follow procedure. The problem is a continum of behavior that suggests a culture that at best tolerates unethical/illegal behavior and at worst promotes it. It extends beyond the nuclear community, to be sure, in big and small way, but just sticking with the nuke guys...this has been an almost constant thing in the news for a year now, one thing after another.

From what I'm gathering, taking "Vitamin C" for these missile officers seems to be fairly common. I think it is a culturally-acceptable thing...must like the rest of us might not think twice about "cheating" on our Anti-terrorism CBT. Looks bad in the paper, either way.


Seriously, how many of these incidents need to happen before the CSAF does something other than order a study or investigation?

It's really hard to say what can be done. I mean, CSAF or anyone can stand up and give the "integrity this and integrity that" speech all day...and the end of the day when the next guy gets nailed for what has become acceptable "cheating"...I keep keep envisioning Joe Pesci in 'My Cousin Vinny', saying incredulously, "You were serious about that?"

Part of this stems from the unending barrage of constant bullshit AF members are dealt on a daily basis...all the rules, expectations, etc., many of which are not even realistic, let alone serious. I can see how it might be difficult, at times, for a young person to differentiate what are the really serious orders and which ones might be, can we say, morally questionable? Hearing the officers tell their story, the standard in the Nuke community is perfection...basically, an impossible standard to meet. It sounds nice to say there is no room for error in Nukes, but there is not such thing as an error-free process, especially when it involves people.

imnohero
01-31-2014, 03:57 PM
From what I'm gathering, taking "Vitamin C" for these missile officers seems to be fairly common. I think it is a culturally-acceptable thing...must like the rest of us might not think twice about "cheating" on our Anti-terrorism CBT. Looks bad in the paper, either way.

all this tells me is that the culture of cheating is even more wide-spread. I never "cheated" on a CBT, however odious going through them was.


It's really hard to say what can be done. I mean, CSAF or anyone can stand up and give the "integrity this and integrity that" speech all day...and the end of the day when the next guy gets nailed for what has become acceptable "cheating"...I keep keep envisioning Joe Pesci in 'My Cousin Vinny', saying incredulously, "You were serious about that?"

Uh, give them all an LOR for conduct unbecoming? Redline their eligibility for promotion? Put them at the top of the invol separation list? There are many things that could be done.


Part of this stems from the unending barrage of constant bullshit AF members are dealt on a daily basis...all the rules, expectations, etc., many of which are not even realistic, let alone serious. I can see how it might be difficult, at times, for a young person to differentiate what are the really serious orders and which ones might be, can we say, morally questionable? Hearing the officers tell their story, the standard in the Nuke community is perfection...basically, an impossible standard to meet. It sounds nice to say there is no room for error in Nukes, but there is not such thing as an error-free process, especially when it involves people.

I am certainly not suggesting an error-free process. But 97 officer cheating on a basic proficiency exam is not an "error." We also are not talking about 18 year old amn snuffy straight out of basic, that might not understand or be able to figure out what is serious and what is "box checking."

BRUWIN
01-31-2014, 04:07 PM
It sounds nice to say there is no room for error in Nukes, but there is not such thing as an error-free process, especially when it involves people.

Yeah...I always thought the same. But when you say that around higher ups they look at you like your from planet Mars. The whole nuke thing is actually a problem in itself and I've always thought there were unrealistic expectations put on the enterprise. As long as people are involved there will be errors. I was in during the SAC years...I remember the ruthless NSI and ORI inspections. There were issues back then. However, leadership was more thoroughly involved. As much lip service leadership gives to saying they are now reengaged to the nuclear mission, I still don't buy it. Bringing people by for tours and tater tots is not the type of involvement and leadership the enterprise needs.

SomeRandomGuy
01-31-2014, 04:21 PM
all this tells me is that the culture of cheating is even more wide-spread. I never "cheated" on a CBT, however odious going through them was.

A few years ago I was a Self Aid Buddy Care (SABC) augmentee instructor. At the time in order to sign up for the "hands on" portion you had to complete the CBT. For us non medical types that thing was extremely hard. If you just copied and pasted the question into google it led you straight to one of those wiki answers sites where the exact question and exact answer were posted. At one point there was a well meaning AF person who was going out to the site and answering all the questions as "If you need this question answered for your AF SABC CBT you should probably read the material. This training could save your life or someone else's life"

To answer your question, yes cheating is alot more widespread than you thought if you didn't know people were googling the answer to something as "important" as SABC. Then again, how important could SABC be if the way to recieve the training was complete a computer based test, then get a hands on course taught by a finance guy (me) who only recieved a 4 hour course on it from medical and had no idea how to teach it.

I think this is what Measureman was getting at. Things that actually are important are now a CBT that you click through. That leads to a mentality where SABC is now just as important as Don't Ask Don't Tell CBT. Then people come back and say, "wait, you were serious about that?"

Measure Man
01-31-2014, 04:58 PM
A few years ago I was a Self Aid Buddy Care (SABC) augmentee instructor. At the time in order to sign up for the "hands on" portion you had to complete the CBT. For us non medical types that thing was extremely hard. If you just copied and pasted the question into google it led you straight to one of those wiki answers sites where the exact question and exact answer were posted. At one point there was a well meaning AF person who was going out to the site and answering all the questions as "If you need this question answered for your AF SABC CBT you should probably read the material. This training could save your life or someone else's life"

To answer your question, yes cheating is alot more widespread than you thought if you didn't know people were googling the answer to something as "important" as SABC. Then again, how important could SABC be if the way to recieve the training was complete a computer based test, then get a hands on course taught by a finance guy (me) who only recieved a 4 hour course on it from medical and had no idea how to teach it.

I think this is what Measureman was getting at. Things that actually are important are now a CBT that you click through. That leads to a mentality where SABC is now just as important as Don't Ask Don't Tell CBT. Then people come back and say, "wait, you were serious about that?"

Yes...I believe you got it.

I mean...if you really looked at the entire scope of what the AF considers "NCO responsibilities" even, it's pretty impossible. A lot of it is not "really serious" and some of it is "very serious."...much of it is not really serious unless something goes wrong, then they just need someone to blame.

I don't have the PDG anymore, but it used to have something in there even about an NCO being responsible for wastewater runoff from your facility. Really?

Measure Man
01-31-2014, 05:07 PM
all this tells me is that the culture of cheating is even more wide-spread. I never "cheated" on a CBT, however odious going through them was.

I do believe the culture of "cheating" is more wide-spread than the individuals caught up in this case. I put that in quotes because it's not cheating if you're taught those are the rules of the game.

What I'm saying is I'm less inclined to believe 97 officers at this base have zero integrity than I am inclined to believe this was an accepted practice.


Uh, give them all an LOR for conduct unbecoming? Redline their eligibility for promotion? Put them at the top of the invol separation list? There are many things that could be done.

That would "fix" this symptom, it does not fix the disease.


I am certainly not suggesting an error-free process. But 97 officer cheating on a basic proficiency exam is not an "error."

You are not following the conversation. It's not that the cheating is the error. It is that in order to "pass" they must complete their exams without error. From what I'm hearing, that consistently passing without error is an impossible task. Like...okay, I'll give you the NYC white pages to memorize in order, without error....if you fail to do so, you'll be out of job. Good luck. Obviously an exaggeration, I don't know what a missile officer proficiency exam is like...but the scuttlebutt is that in the wake of other recent nuke screw-ups, the standard has become a near impossible one. Obviously, you've been to school, if all your classes were pass/fail, with a passing score being 100% on the exam...what would your GPA have been? I mean, in every class you've taken, you are responsible for all the material, right? I know, I know,...you're going to all self-righteous and say you still wouldn't cheat. Nor am I saying that justifies the cheating.

To draw a parallel here...it would be like taking a class when the teacher tells the take-home exam may be discussed with classmates. Is it then a lack of integrity to discuss the exam with classmates? I'm far more than 18 years old and if the teacher said it was okay, then it is okay. Would it be right for an investigator to come in later and say "We found text messages from MM, discussing the final exam with his classmates"


We also are not talking about 18 year old amn snuffy straight out of basic, that might not understand or be able to figure out what is serious and what is "box checking."

Okay...but when that 18 year old, or 22 year old since their officers, are taught from day one that this is okay...and it remains okay until they are 35 and suddenly the sky falls on them...

sandsjames
01-31-2014, 05:08 PM
From what I'm gathering, taking "Vitamin C" for these missile officers seems to be fairly common. I think it is a culturally-acceptable thing...must like the rest of us might not think twice about "cheating" on our Anti-terrorism CBT. Looks bad in the paper, either way.



It's really hard to say what can be done. I mean, CSAF or anyone can stand up and give the "integrity this and integrity that" speech all day...and the end of the day when the next guy gets nailed for what has become acceptable "cheating"...I keep keep envisioning Joe Pesci in 'My Cousin Vinny', saying incredulously, "You were serious about that?"

Part of this stems from the unending barrage of constant bullshit AF members are dealt on a daily basis...all the rules, expectations, etc., many of which are not even realistic, let alone serious. I can see how it might be difficult, at times, for a young person to differentiate what are the really serious orders and which ones might be, can we say, morally questionable? Hearing the officers tell their story, the standard in the Nuke community is perfection...basically, an impossible standard to meet. It sounds nice to say there is no room for error in Nukes, but there is not such thing as an error-free process, especially when it involves people.

You're right...many of these things have become culturally acceptable, mainly because most of it is tedious for all the wrong reasons. I can't remember the last time that a mass CBT came out and we didn't all sit around the same computer, write down all the correct answers just so we could get it out of the way.

Of course the integrity speech is going to come out. What needs to come out is how unimportant and unnecessary most of these "tests" are.

Kicker47
01-31-2014, 05:31 PM
Based on my experiences, I'd be willing to bet that those test scores are briefed on a slide to the Wing CC weekly/monthly, and heads will roll if there is any less than 100% green on that chart.

fufu
01-31-2014, 06:02 PM
From what I'm gathering, taking "Vitamin C" for these missile officers seems to be fairly common. I think it is a culturally-acceptable thing...must like the rest of us might not think twice about "cheating" on our Anti-terrorism CBT. Looks bad in the paper, either way.



It's really hard to say what can be done. I mean, CSAF or anyone can stand up and give the "integrity this and integrity that" speech all day...and the end of the day when the next guy gets nailed for what has become acceptable "cheating"...I keep keep envisioning Joe Pesci in 'My Cousin Vinny', saying incredulously, "You were serious about that?"

Part of this stems from the unending barrage of constant bullshit AF members are dealt on a daily basis...all the rules, expectations, etc., many of which are not even realistic, let alone serious. I can see how it might be difficult, at times, for a young person to differentiate what are the really serious orders and which ones might be, can we say, morally questionable? Hearing the officers tell their story, the standard in the Nuke community is perfection...basically, an impossible standard to meet. It sounds nice to say there is no room for error in Nukes, but there is not such thing as an error-free process, especially when it involves people.

That is hitting the nail on the head. The new AFOSH/Safety AFI is 1004 pages. 1004! That is just one AFI, I bet there are over 500K pages of AFIs that we need "know". How has time for that?

How about all the CBTs? I've been in for 15 yrs, do I really need to give the Human Trafficing CBT my full attention? Fuck no...it gets click, click, click, answer submit. Yes, I've googled answers to CBTs...

"Everything" can't be equally important. Not possible. At some point, people have to decide what is the most important parts of their job and service. I rarely correct a uniform violation...it has to be something major for me to say something...(the last one, an AB was wearing a fleece with Amn rank). I'm not beating up an Airman over his hair touching his ears or having an unbuttoned pocket.

As someone mentioned, Big Blue created this culture with their inspection programs. Failure is not an option, even if you are failing, make it look like you are not....at all costs. Combine this with the up or out mentality and you generate a culture of corruption. No questions.

TJMAC77SP
01-31-2014, 06:11 PM
Offutt is not looking good these days.

LOL. Who was the member on the forums, that would bad mouth Offutt every chance he could?

Oh good God !!!!!!!! You're right. Shit.............................

BRUWIN
01-31-2014, 06:18 PM
Based on my experiences, I'd be willing to bet that those test scores are briefed on a slide to the Wing CC weekly/monthly, and heads will roll if there is any less than 100% green on that chart.

Probably where the micromanagement mentioned on the list of concerns the SAF briefed falls into play. Wing/Group gets involved at unit level when these scores are briefed. What happens is not so much the Wing or Group micromanages...but the unit's don't want to look bad so they end up competing with one another. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But unit CCs need to keep things in perspective.

Kicker47
01-31-2014, 06:20 PM
Micromanagement? We coined the term "Nanomanagement".

imnohero
01-31-2014, 07:53 PM
micro management
the test is hard
it's tedious
it's not important
everyone else does it

I guess that makes it OK...send these officers back to duty post-haste. Nothing to see here.

Gonzo432
01-31-2014, 09:19 PM
I think I see the problem: from day 1 we are all (and particularly officers) thrown so much crap you could never get it all done. You have to prioritize and determine what needs to be done and what is BS. That's what they did: this isn't important, I can check the box and move on.

I do this because it keeps me out of jail: priority 1
I do this to stay out of the Wing/CC's office: priority 2
I do this... nobody cares, I'll Google it.

Juggs
01-31-2014, 09:51 PM
I think I see the problem: from day 1 we are all (and particularly officers) thrown so much crap you could never get it all done. You have to prioritize and determine what needs to be done and what is BS. That's what they did: this isn't important, I can check the box and move on.

I do this because it keeps me out of jail: priority 1
I do this to stay out of the Wing/CC's office: priority 2
I do this... nobody cares, I'll Google it.

That's what I was taught. Take care of the high risk first, and work your way down.

BRUWIN
01-31-2014, 10:09 PM
micro management
the test is hard
it's tedious
it's not important
everyone else does it

I guess that makes it OK...send these officers back to duty post-haste. Nothing to see here.

Who said that? I don't see anybody saying that. You sound like one of those black and white guys though...where there is no gray in between. I think the point here though is that there is gray...wherever you go there will be gray. Sure...you can write any policy in black and white and that's what has happened here. Keep it black and white and your going to continue to have issues and they will never be fixed. All I am saying is maybe the nuclear enterprise needs to identify those black and white areas and keep them to a minumum. Right now, you can fail an inspection simply because a piece of maintenance equipment didn't have it's periodic maintenance inspection documentation completed. The inspection was done...but the documentation was incomplete. Is that really a failure? IMO it isn't...but it's 100% compliance in the nuclear world and I think it's unrealistic with today's manning levels. Well honestly...I think it's unrealistic period.

imnohero
01-31-2014, 10:15 PM
Who said that? I don't see anybody saying that.


Uh, like the last 2 pages of posts are excuses of why it's OK to pencil-whip training requirements, that these officers didn't really "cheat", that this is the how the game is played...pick your wording...well, if it's OK for a SABC CBT...why not a nuclear officer proficiency test?

No one said it in specific wording, but that's the implication...excusing themselves, in effect, excuses these nuke officers.

I'm being 'black and white' on purpose to emaphasize my point.

Mr. Happy
02-01-2014, 02:12 AM
I can't wait to retire. Once I do, I'm never looking back.

Gonzo432
02-01-2014, 02:30 AM
I can't wait to retire. Once I do, I'm never looking back.

It's been almost 7 years for me, and I haven't looked back.

John Jameson
02-01-2014, 02:51 AM
I can't wait to retire. Once I do, I'm never looking back.

I thought the same thing. Unfortunately, it's like the proverbial train wreck. I can't stop watching it, even from the warm embrace of retirement...

LogDog
02-01-2014, 03:34 AM
Maybe. I've got nothing more to go on but my memory which, like all humans, is faulty, but I seem to remember back in the late '80s and early '90s that a week wouldn't go by without some story in the AF Times or the Stars & Stripes about some major malfeasance occurring at some base somewhere. As I recall, stealing government property and selling it on the black market seemed to be popular back then.
I served from 1975 - 2003 and there was a lot of stuff that was hushed up. Sometimes things would get out but most of the time you heard little about any officer screwing up.

SomeRandomGuy
02-01-2014, 04:01 AM
Uh, like the last 2 pages of posts are excuses of why it's OK to pencil-whip training requirements, that these officers didn't really "cheat", that this is the how the game is played...pick your wording...well, if it's OK for a SABC CBT...why not a nuclear officer proficiency test?

No one said it in specific wording, but that's the implication...excusing themselves, in effect, excuses these nuke officers.

I'm being 'black and white' on purpose to emaphasize my point.

I was the person that posted the "Google SABC" thing. I can actually justify it. My job is finance, I need to know as much as possible about finance. I have a couple thousand pages of regulations I need to read for my own job. (Hypothetical situation) I'm not getting deployed anytime soon and if I do I will get notice. My commander comes up to me and says that I am yellow on his SABC slide and I need to complete the CBT by COB this week. I guees I have to do that right?

Still, I have a bunch of other things to do, and I don't really have time for this. Should I sluff of my finance work and screw over people who are actually downrange right now so I can accomplish this CBT? To be honest, I'm ok with googling the answers to the CBT and getting back to work paying people.

I'm not enlisted anymore so I will freely admit this. I cheated almost every CBT I ever took in the AF. Why do I need to know about DADT, Human, Trafficking, Unexploded Ordinances, SABC, CBRNE, etc? If I get a tasking to deploy to an area where those things are a problem I will take it serious. In the meantime as a finance person my biggest hazzard is the guy who just came back from downrange and is pissed off because I worked on CBTs instead of his pay.

Old Fart IV
02-01-2014, 04:01 AM
I've been retired for a few years, but reading the posts on this scandal and others leads me to believe that the root cause can be summed-up as: Air Force leadership has gotten lost in the "numbers game"; and Meeting the goal is not good enough, we must exceed our goal or we have failed
1) Passing the PT test with the minimum is not good enough - you must get 90 or above or else ... Gee I though it was a pass / fail test?
2) Getting a SAT on the last inspection is not good enough - SAT means we met/exceeded the standards, right?
3) If everyone in my unit passes the test or inspection, how will I distinguish myself as a leader?

Food for thought :)

JR

SomeRandomGuy
02-01-2014, 04:07 AM
I've been retired for a few years, but reading the posts on this scandal and others leads me to believe that the root cause can be summed-up as: Air Force leadership has gotten lost in the "numbers game"; and Meeting the goal is not good enough, we must exceed our goal or we have failed
1) Passing the PT test with the minimum is not good enough - you must get 90 or above or else ... Gee I though it was a pass / fail test?
2) Getting a SAT on the last inspection is not good enough - SAT means we met/exceeded the standards, right?
3) If everyone in my unit passes the test or inspection, how will I distinguish myself as a leader?

Food for thought :)

JR

You are mostly correct but you need to remember your Officer Performance Report (OPR) hinges on what you fixed/changed. No one has ever submitted an OPR that said I showed up and things were working so I left everything the way it was.

Bunch
02-01-2014, 04:47 AM
Uh, like the last 2 pages of posts are excuses of why it's OK to pencil-whip training requirements, that these officers didn't really "cheat", that this is the how the game is played...pick your wording...well, if it's OK for a SABC CBT...why not a nuclear officer proficiency test?

No one said it in specific wording, but that's the implication...excusing themselves, in effect, excuses these nuke officers.

I'm being 'black and white' on purpose to emaphasize my point.

I understand the point you trying to make but I think we can't overlook or downplay the "this is how the game is played/everyone else does it" part of this equation, specially how it affects the lower ranking (officer or enlisted).

Just imagine the new airmen arriving to his first base and so it happens that his work center is full of people who are corrupt. This young airmen doesn't know any better so the probability that he will end up in a situation in which he/she will be "playing the game as others do" is fairly high.

I truly believe that this culture of corruption within the Air Force places the lower ranking in an impossible position.

OtisRNeedleman
02-01-2014, 06:25 AM
Re AF "leadership", nothing has really seemed to change over the years. Over my 21+ years of service, I could count the number of real leaders I encountered in the AF on two hands, with fingers left over. A secretary at Randolph put it to me so succinctly..."There are no more leaders, just bosses."

In the same vein, the bosses still stress looking good over doing good. I remember the saying, "F- the mission, clean the position." As a second lieutenant in Korea, I'll never forget our group commander. He started out seeming like a breath of fresh air after the previous commander, but soon it was clear the new commander didn't care about anything but looking good for his boss, and making that eagle on our collective backs. He made his eagle, but no star, happily. Didn't matter which command I was in, way too many people in commander's jobs who only cared about looking good and getting that next promotion. I felt lucky to have encountered as many real leaders as I did.

And one funny thing I noticed about all these toxic "leaders"...they spent a lot of time at work. Perhaps if they trusted their people to carry out the mission they'd have enough time to get their own jobs done without regularly burning the midnight oil. I can't really say much about the nonentities I encountered filling "commander" positions. Don't know how much time they spent at work. I only know they didn't have a single clue as to what they were doing. They just seemed to display some sort of atavistic impulse to keep trying for that next promotion.

So how was it working for actual leaders? Great. They never expected any more from you than they did from themselves. They recognized your efforts, sparked you toward excellence, and fought to help you get a great assignment after this job was done. You always knew where you stood. If you did well, they'd tell you. If you screwed up, they'd tell you and give advice on improvement. And sometimes, if you really fucked something up but were otherwise a good troop they'd go to bat for you. Try NOT to work hard for such leaders. When you work for real leaders, the very worst thing you can imagine is that you might do something to disappoint them or betray their trust, because they had shown such confidence and trust in you. I would rather have been shot than have let any actual leaders down.

Another differentiation...when a boss hands you a tasking you get it done because that's your job. When a leader hands you a tasking you drop what you are doing to get it done because he needs it done, he knows you are the best person to get it done, and he knows and trusts you'll do a fine job.

Guess the bottom line is that you have to trust a boss. You know you can trust a leader.

ChiefB
02-01-2014, 09:17 AM
Re AF "leadership", nothing has really seemed to change over the years. Over my 21+ years of service, I could count the number of real leaders I encountered in the AF on two hands, with fingers left over. A secretary at Randolph put it to me so succinctly..."There are no more leaders, just bosses."

In the same vein, the bosses still stress looking good over doing good. I remember the saying, "F- the mission, clean the position." As a second lieutenant in Korea, I'll never forget our group commander. He started out seeming like a breath of fresh air after the previous commander, but soon it was clear the new commander didn't care about anything but looking good for his boss, and making that eagle on our collective backs. He made his eagle, but no star, happily. Didn't matter which command I was in, way too many people in commander's jobs who only cared about looking good and getting that next promotion. I felt lucky to have encountered as many real leaders as I did.

And one funny thing I noticed about all these toxic "leaders"...they spent a lot of time at work. Perhaps if they trusted their people to carry out the mission they'd have enough time to get their own jobs done without regularly burning the midnight oil. I can't really say much about the nonentities I encountered filling "commander" positions. Don't know how much time they spent at work. I only know they didn't have a single clue as to what they were doing. They just seemed to display some sort of atavistic impulse to keep trying for that next promotion.

So how was it working for actual leaders? Great. They never expected any more from you than they did from themselves. They recognized your efforts, sparked you toward excellence, and fought to help you get a great assignment after this job was done. You always knew where you stood. If you did well, they'd tell you. If you screwed up, they'd tell you and give advice on improvement. And sometimes, if you really fucked something up but were otherwise a good troop they'd go to bat for you. Try NOT to work hard for such leaders. When you work for real leaders, the very worst thing you can imagine is that you might do something to disappoint them or betray their trust, because they had shown such confidence and trust in you. I would rather have been shot than have let any actual leaders down.

Another differentiation...when a boss hands you a tasking you get it done because that's your job. When a leader hands you a tasking you drop what you are doing to get it done because he needs it done, he knows you are the best person to get it done, and he knows and trusts you'll do a fine job.

Guess the bottom line is that you have to trust a boss. You know you can trust a leader.

Very well said, Otis... I wish we would have met back in the day. Back when you could still have a beer with ur Lt., that is.

BURAWSKI
02-01-2014, 12:28 PM
Very well said, Otis... I wish we would have met back in the day. Back when you could still have a beer with ur Lt., that is.

I agree with both of you. I think this type of leadership is all but nonexistent in today's military. I never thought of the military as a corporation, but that is how the officers in today's military operate. It didn't use to be that way (at least there were some that didn't act like the military was a company or just a job). Given the way society is changing I think the way the military used to be (or supposed to be) is history. As I read these postings for this thread I am not surprised that these comments apply to not just the Air Force, but the entire military.

mjt
02-01-2014, 01:20 PM
I believe we've created a culture where end results are more important than how the results are achieved. In a way, we've created a vicious cycle, one where we begin by taking on additional workload and responsibilities (or conversely, doing the same workload with less manning) with the understanding it is only for the short term, only for others to see us doing so and incorrectly assuming that one can continue to perform at that same level without making compromises. The additional workload now becomes the norm, and the surge in work production now becomes the steady state environment.

Eventually, compromises are made. People lose motivation, are unwilling to make long-term sacrifices, take on unforseen additional workload, etc.. This forces an Airman to begin prioritizing work into categories: what tasks must be accomplished precisely; what tasks can be accomplished with disregard to some steps/details/suspenses; what tasks can be accomplished with disregard for several steps/details/suspenses; and what tasks can be accomplished with complete disregard to steps/details/suspense.

What really amplifies the above issue is twofold:

1.) Leadership is unwilling to make "no" an option. i.e, they're unwilling to say no, we cannot support this tasker; no we don't have the manpower; no, we don't have the resources; no, we don't have the training, etc.. The answer has been, and continues to be "yes" with the internal caveat that we'll figure it out later. This line of thinking avoids honesty and truthfulness, and continues to force Airmen into the above scenario.

2.) Everything is priority #1. This is to say, that Big Blue has placed emphasis on so many things as being the top priority, that in the end, none of them are viewed as the priority, and again it puts Airmen in a situation where they have to determine the priorities, and what compromises will be made in moving forward to accomplish the "mission."

Only when it comes to inspections do Airmen begin to view Air Force priorities as presented, and then hurriedly work to ensure they're accomplished correctly, or at least present the appearance of being done correctly. And, because there are so many taskings, and finite man hours, those behind the taskings begin pushingh for their taskings to be accomplished first rather than managing expectations.

We're putting our Airmen in a position where they have to prioritize how they're going to make compromises. They shouldn't be making those types of decisions, period. And we as leaders shouldn't be forcing them to make those kinds of decisions. Unfortunately, this type of mission accomplishment has permeated up and down the chain of command. Our most senior leaders are oblivious (or choose to be) to this bubblegum and duct tape patchwork system because all they see is the tasking, sitting completed on their desk, on time, without being able to peak behind the curtain and see the circus that took place to put it together. At some point, the system is going to fail, and many respects we're already seeing the frays an cracks. Unfortunately, I think it is going to take something catastrophic in order for change to take place, and even then, I'm more inclined we'll just throw a band-aid fix on it and call it good.

DWWSWWD
02-01-2014, 03:13 PM
It's been almost 7 years for me, and I haven't looked back.

Huh....... Weird thing to say from the Air Force forums 7 years after retirement.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-01-2014, 03:39 PM
LogDog hit the nail on the head, in the past most of these problems would either have never been exposed (no social media or cell phones back then to expose this stuff) or they would have been dealt with quietly.

These problems (Fraternization, Bosses abusing troops, cheating, etc.) have always been there in the past, if not more so. It is just much harder to get away with it these days.

I agree, these problems are nothing new, we just hear about them and they aren't hidden like they used to be.

That is an improvement and not a sign of morale decay. These nostalgic whiners who look back at the 1950s as if it was a wholesome golden age are delusional.

The 1950s was rife with sexual harassers, rapists, drunken pedophile priests, and tough-guy bullies who chain-smoked unfiltered cigarettes.

Plus, they put all that pomade in their hair and constantly drank whiskey from little flasks that they had stashed in their ridiculous engineer boots.

It is much better now than back then. Hell, they didn't even have urinalysis drug screening back then, so three quarters of the troops were walking around high all the time, and none of them had CCAF degrees.

As a society, we are much better now. That includes the military service, we have come a long way and I wish the nostalgic old grumpy men would STFU and go watch some shitty John Wayne movie and leave the rest of alone.

Gonzo432
02-01-2014, 07:34 PM
Huh....... Weird thing to say from the Air Force forums 7 years after retirement.

Good point. UPON FURTHER REVIEW: I don't miss the BS and I am glad things worked out the way they did for me and my family after retirement. I'm glad I missed the rise of PT and other Charlie Foxtrots that happened after May 07. I've been on an AF Base 4 times in those (almost) 7 years. I miss (most of) the people in the AF and I like talking about AF stuff. 21+ years is a big part of my life and let's face it, as much stuff that changes, that much still stays the same. As far as "not looking back", I wouldn't trade my Blue-ID for anything and I like being retired more than I liked being AD. I'm in civil service (VA) and looking back on it I'm glad I took this job opposed to an AF civvie job.

jshiver15
02-01-2014, 08:07 PM
I was the person that posted the "Google SABC" thing. I can actually justify it. My job is finance, I need to know as much as possible about finance. I have a couple thousand pages of regulations I need to read for my own job. (Hypothetical situation) I'm not getting deployed anytime soon and if I do I will get notice. My commander comes up to me and says that I am yellow on his SABC slide and I need to complete the CBT by COB this week. I guees I have to do that right?

Still, I have a bunch of other things to do, and I don't really have time for this. Should I sluff of my finance work and screw over people who are actually downrange right now so I can accomplish this CBT? To be honest, I'm ok with googling the answers to the CBT and getting back to work paying people.

I'm not enlisted anymore so I will freely admit this. I cheated almost every CBT I ever took in the AF. Why do I need to know about DADT, Human, Trafficking, Unexploded Ordinances, SABC, CBRNE, etc? If I get a tasking to deploy to an area where those things are a problem I will take it serious. In the meantime as a finance person my biggest hazzard is the guy who just came back from downrange and is pissed off because I worked on CBTs instead of his pay.

When I was a fairly new Airman and at my first assignment, we had a Chief who made it a policy to not let anyone do CBTs while working shift. Instead, once a month (this lasted for about 6 months) everyone on that shift would come in and complete each required CBT together in a thorough fashion with the intention that we'd all understand the material. When this was first implemented and actually monitored, the very first session took 14 hours and we didn't even finish. Within 2 months each session got closer to "click, click, answer, done". There was no way for us to go through all of these the way they intended. Not to mention, this is a hub that brings in brand new Airmen on a constant basis, so not only were they learning their job and qualifying in their duty position, they were also working through 6 volumes of 5-level CDCs. No one had time for this shit! And the fact that it even got to that point was a complete failure in leadership.

DWWSWWD
02-01-2014, 11:19 PM
Good point. UPON FURTHER REVIEW: I don't miss the BS and I am glad things worked out the way they did for me and my family after retirement. I'm glad I missed the rise of PT and other Charlie Foxtrots that happened after May 07. I've been on an AF Base 4 times in those (almost) 7 years. I miss (most of) the people in the AF and I like talking about AF stuff. 21+ years is a big part of my life and let's face it, as much stuff that changes, that much still stays the same. As far as "not looking back", I wouldn't trade my Blue-ID for anything and I like being retired more than I liked being AD. I'm in civil service (VA) and looking back on it I'm glad I took this job opposed to an AF civvie job. Good words, Gonz. I just rx'd my official retirement approval yesterday and have given a lot of thought as to the extent to which I'd be involved with things, even the forums. I've been in the AF longer than I've been out of it and it's part of who I am. Everyone says the other side is all good so I'm looking forward to it. I'm not feeling really good about it yet. I am definitely leaving with something in the tank but my team deserves it that way.

Gonzo432
02-01-2014, 11:45 PM
Good words, Gonz. I just rx'd my official retirement approval yesterday and have given a lot of thought as to the extent to which I'd be involved with things, even the forums. I've been in the AF longer than I've been out of it and it's part of who I am. Everyone says the other side is all good so I'm looking forward to it. I'm not feeling really good about it yet. I am definitely leaving with something in the tank but my team deserves it that way.

It is scary when you think about spending over half your life wearing the uniform. What's worse is when you think about how many years of work are still in front of you. Having to decide what to wear to work was tough. It took 6 months before I stopped looking for my hat when I got out of the car. Going from the known to the unknown is hard. The good news is that in the civilian world there are REALLY old people in the work force, suddenly you're the young one!

BRUWIN
02-02-2014, 12:54 AM
When I was a fairly new Airman and at my first assignment, we had a Chief who made it a policy to not let anyone do CBTs while working shift. Instead, once a month (this lasted for about 6 months) everyone on that shift would come in and complete each required CBT together in a thorough fashion with the intention that we'd all understand the material. When this was first implemented and actually monitored, the very first session took 14 hours and we didn't even finish. Within 2 months each session got closer to "click, click, answer, done". There was no way for us to go through all of these the way they intended. Not to mention, this is a hub that brings in brand new Airmen on a constant basis, so not only were they learning their job and qualifying in their duty position, they were also working through 6 volumes of 5-level CDCs. No one had time for this shit! And the fact that it even got to that point was a complete failure in leadership.

CBT's have never been anything more than CYA for higher leadership. They don't care if you know it....they just care that when you screw up they have a reference to say "look...we trained him so it isn't our fault." That's all CBTs were ever for. If they really wanted us to know and understand we'd be sitting in a classroom like the old days. Hell...with most of the crap they have for CBTs now you'd be a full time student.

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-02-2014, 12:59 AM
CBT's have never been anything more than CYA for higher leadership. They don't care if you know it....they just care that when you screw up they have a reference to say "look...we trained him so it isn't our fault." That's all CBTs were ever for. If they really wanted us to know and understand we'd be sitting in a classroom like the old days. Hell...with most of the crap they have for CBTs now you'd be a full time student.

I wish you would stop trolling. Noone will ever take your posts seriously.

Juggs
02-02-2014, 01:39 AM
I wish you would stop trolling. Noone will ever take your posts seriously.

Unfortunately his statement you quoted IS him being serious. Also it's very accurate.

wxjumper
02-02-2014, 03:30 AM
Unfortunately his statement you quoted IS him being serious. Also it's very accurate.

I think that was his point, Bruwin made a very true statement but it will be lost on some people who won't know whether he is being serious or not.

imnohero
02-02-2014, 03:44 AM
Who would think Bruwin is being serious about anything?

ChiefB
02-02-2014, 05:05 AM
Good words, Gonz. I just rx'd my official retirement approval yesterday and have given a lot of thought as to the extent to which I'd be involved with things, even the forums. I've been in the AF longer than I've been out of it and it's part of who I am. Everyone says the other side is all good so I'm looking forward to it. I'm not feeling really good about it yet. I am definitely leaving with something in the tank but my team deserves it that way.

Don't leave the forums, dude. We need you. Good luck in retirement, you'll like your new freedoms.:thumb

sandsjames
02-02-2014, 12:13 PM
Good words, Gonz. I just rx'd my official retirement approval yesterday and have given a lot of thought as to the extent to which I'd be involved with things, even the forums. I've been in the AF longer than I've been out of it and it's part of who I am. Everyone says the other side is all good so I'm looking forward to it. I'm not feeling really good about it yet. I am definitely leaving with something in the tank but my team deserves it that way.

It is AWESOME. If you have any piece of yourself still left in there somewhere you will enjoy it very much.

The stress of less money, no job, what to wear to work, etc...all the things people talk about...do not compare to the stress relief you feel on day 1 when you know you don't have to answer the phone call, you can plan a vacation because you know you won't be deployed, etc.

We are so worse of money wise, but we survive. If someone were to offer me my next stripe and two more years with 50% retirement, I'd turn it down in a heart beat.

This forum is the only link I have to the military anymore. I don't come here, I think, because it's still a link to the military. I come here because over the last few years I've become quite comfortable talking, joking, arguing with the people on here. It's far more a socialization thing than a military thing. If it was some other forum I'd been on, I would probably still be going to that one for the same reason.

If you like the people and the discussion, you'll stick around, even if much less. It's not about being an Air Force site, it's about the "web friendships" (can't think of a better word for it) you've made.

Congratulations on the retirement approval. Enjoy the start of the rest of your life.

Chief_KO
02-02-2014, 01:08 PM
DW:

Best wishes for a healthy, happy, and fulfilling retirement. Looking forward to reading your retired opinions!
KO

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
02-02-2014, 01:18 PM
Good words, Gonz. I just rx'd my official retirement approval yesterday and have given a lot of thought as to the extent to which I'd be involved with things, even the forums. I've been in the AF longer than I've been out of it and it's part of who I am. Everyone says the other side is all good so I'm looking forward to it. I'm not feeling really good about it yet. I am definitely leaving with something in the tank but my team deserves it that way.

Congrats. Retirement is fricken awesome. You'll see.

BRUWIN
02-02-2014, 03:18 PM
I think that was his point, Bruwin made a very true statement but it will be lost on some people who won't know whether he is being serious or not.

Look...I cannot change who I am. I am bipolar in a way. Except I don't have mood swings as such, I swing between seriousness and cynicism. It drives my wife nuts and it drives me nuts at times. Even when I was little it was a problem. When I was 10 years old or so our house almost burned down because my older sister would not believe me when I ran outside and told her the kitchen was on fire. Thankfully the neighbors eventually saw the smoke pouring out the windows and called the fire department but not before the kitchen was gutted. My parents took my sister's side in not believing me about the fire because I was always messing around and it was hard to figure out when I was serious.

People will just have to figure it out...because I can't change. I've tried.

DWWSWWD
02-02-2014, 04:13 PM
Thanks for the good words, fellas. I love the forums, obviously. I swear it helps my communications skills to try to throw out a succinct thought with no stripes attached to it. I wouldn't imagine I would leave but I would give some thought to the extent to which I can offer a relevant point on the state of the force. If you're out, you're out. Things are moving so fast and if you aren't personally affected by these things, it changes your view. Anywho, Bru and I are thinking of a website venture where we'll offer real time price quotes on prunes at the commissary. We'll keep you posted.

sandsjames
02-02-2014, 04:15 PM
Thanks for the good words, fellas. I love the forums, obviously. I swear it helps my communications skills to try to throw out a succinct thought with no stripes attached to it. I wouldn't imagine I would leave but I would give some thought to the extent to which I can offer a relevant point on the state of the force. If you're out, you're out. Things are moving so fast and if you aren't personally affected by these things, it changes your view. Anywho, Bru and I are thinking of a website venture where we'll offer real time price quotes on prunes at the commissary. We'll keep you posted.

You don't need to post relevant stuff. I gave up on that awhile ago. Bruwin also does a great job of being irrelevant. You can do so and still enjoy the people here.

Gonzo432
02-02-2014, 04:47 PM
Thanks for the good words, fellas. I love the forums, obviously. I swear it helps my communications skills to try to throw out a succinct thought with no stripes attached to it. I wouldn't imagine I would leave but I would give some thought to the extent to which I can offer a relevant point on the state of the force. If you're out, you're out. Things are moving so fast and if you aren't personally affected by these things, it changes your view. Anywho, Bru and I are thinking of a website venture where we'll offer real time price quotes on prunes at the commissary. We'll keep you posted.

Slow down there, that's Doctorate-level retiree stuff. Knock out your aisle-blocking (both individual and as a team), Lincoln Town Car in 4 spots parking, and less than $1 exact-amount check writing before you tackle the big stuff.:smile:

BRUWIN
02-03-2014, 01:06 AM
Bruwin also does a great job of being irrelevant.

Gee...ummmm...thanks? I think.

sandsjames
02-03-2014, 12:48 PM
Gee...ummmm...thanks? I think.

You're very welcome. I mean it with the utmost respect.