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Chief_KO
01-30-2014, 10:04 PM
USAF Airmen frequently complain about the "educational mandate" for enlisted personnel. Interesting to see what the Australian Air Force requires for foreigners to join their ranks:

Airmen / Airwomen (Enlisted)
To be eligible for sponsorship for immigration purposes, an applicant for an Airmen / Airwomen position will:
Possess a qualification equivalent to an AQF bachelor degree (or higher level qualification) requiring a minimum of three years full-time study in an appropriate discipline;
OR
Possess experience and/or training that can be readily assessed by DIAC to be equivalent to an Australian post-secondary qualification requiring at least three years full-time study;
OR
Have completed relevant specialist Defence Force training courses and experience equivalent to at least three years full-time study (following the completion of education equivalent to an Australian Secondary School certificate (Year 10);
AND
Be assessed as having a minimum of vocational proficiency in English (as defined in the Migration Regulation 1.15B).

Yep USAF is way off in left field...

sandsjames
01-30-2014, 10:32 PM
USAF Airmen frequently complain about the "educational mandate" for enlisted personnel. Interesting to see what the Australian Air Force requires for foreigners to join their ranks:

Airmen / Airwomen (Enlisted)
To be eligible for sponsorship for immigration purposes, an applicant for an Airmen / Airwomen position will:
Possess a qualification equivalent to an AQF bachelor degree (or higher level qualification) requiring a minimum of three years full-time study in an appropriate discipline;
OR
Possess experience and/or training that can be readily assessed by DIAC to be equivalent to an Australian post-secondary qualification requiring at least three years full-time study;
OR
Have completed relevant specialist Defence Force training courses and experience equivalent to at least three years full-time study (following the completion of education equivalent to an Australian Secondary School certificate (Year 10);
AND
Be assessed as having a minimum of vocational proficiency in English (as defined in the Migration Regulation 1.15B).

Yep USAF is way off in left field...

I think you are misreading this. This isn't about education, this is saying that if you are going to emigrate to Australia for the purpose of joining the military, you WILL speak English and be educated. This is more of an immigration law than an education requirement of the service.

It doesn't mention the requirements for current citizens of Australia as it relates to joining.

BOSS302
01-30-2014, 10:41 PM
I think you are misreading this. This isn't about education, this is saying that if you are going to emigrate to Australia for the purpose of joining the military, you WILL speak English and be educated. This is more of an immigration law than an education requirement of the service.

It doesn't mention the requirements for current citizens of Australia as it relates to joining.

Correct. Australia has some of the toughest standards for those who emigrate to their country. Within the Commonwealth of Nations (former British Empire), Australia is seen as the "crown jewel" to which to emigrate. In the UK you'll hear stories pop up consistently about Brits being "turned away" from Australia.

You better be educated, and/or be highly skilled, and/or already have a well-paying job lined up (one must have a minimum guaranteed income to emigrate into Australia). I recall reading that Australia is tough in this regard due to their location, with the riffraff of Southeast Asia and the Pacific right at their doorstep.

Airborne
01-31-2014, 03:36 AM
I think you are misreading this. This isn't about education, this is saying that if you are going to emigrate to Australia for the purpose of joining the military, you WILL speak English and be educated. This is more of an immigration law than an education requirement of the service.

It doesn't mention the requirements for current citizens of Australia as it relates to joining.

Yeh pretty much this. So this thread isnt going where the OP thought it would. Sorry OP, no CCAF requirements coming for SSgts, Bachelor's for TSgts and MBs for SNCOs. Yet. Thread closed.

Bunch
01-31-2014, 04:30 AM
I think you are misreading this. This isn't about education, this is saying that if you are going to emigrate to Australia for the purpose of joining the military, you WILL speak English and be educated. This is more of an immigration law than an education requirement of the service.

It doesn't mention the requirements for current citizens of Australia as it relates to joining.

I don't think it has to do anything related to immigration and more related to having someone ready for the position that they need.

imported_KnuckleDragger
01-31-2014, 04:41 AM
Bwahahaha.

Swing and a miss.

"...OR
Have completed relevant specialist Defence Force training courses and experience equivalent to at least three years full-time study (following the completion of education equivalent to an Australian Secondary School certificate (Year 10)..."

Whammy

giggawatt
01-31-2014, 07:39 AM
I don't think it has to do anything related to immigration and more related to having someone ready for the position that they need.

I think it is related to both immigration and position requirements. Although in the OP it does say "To be eligible for sponsorship for immigration purposes...."

socal1200r
01-31-2014, 04:41 PM
And to think I made it all the way to O5 without a Master's degree or a mess dress uniform, lol...

socal1200r
02-04-2014, 05:51 PM
...or learning how to play golf...or play Crud...

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
02-05-2014, 02:24 AM
And to think I made it all the way to O5 without a Master's degree or a mess dress uniform, lol...

When was this, 1952?

socal1200r
02-05-2014, 03:20 PM
When was this, 1952?

Oct 2009...in these days of artificial officer PME "requirements", and the requisite attendance at "dog and pony" shows, I pinned on O5 without having a Master's degree or a mess dress uniform...YEAH!

BENDER56
02-05-2014, 04:55 PM
Oct 2009...in these days of artificial officer PME "requirements", and the requisite attendance at "dog and pony" shows, I pinned on O5 without having a Master's degree or a mess dress uniform...YEAH!

I thought having mess dress was required for Os. Or was it just one of those unwritten rules that nobody bucked?

PburghNo1
02-05-2014, 05:15 PM
I thought having mess dress was required for Os. Or was it just one of those unwritten rules that nobody bucked?

It is required, not unwritten like the "don't wear ribbons on your shirt" rule... AFI 36-2903 para 4.3. "Men’s Mess Dress Uniform (Mandatory for Officers/Optional for Enlisted)."

Just so happens that officers get a one time clothing allowance that happens to be right in line with how much a full Mess Dress costs, $400. (Though it's across all services so it's probably just a happy coincidence that Mess Dress costs the same.)

socal1200r
02-05-2014, 05:43 PM
It is required, not unwritten like the "don't wear ribbons on your shirt" rule... AFI 36-2903 para 4.3. "Men’s Mess Dress Uniform (Mandatory for Officers/Optional for Enlisted)."

Just so happens that officers get a one time clothing allowance that happens to be right in line with how much a full Mess Dress costs, $400. (Though it's across all services so it's probably just a happy coincidence that Mess Dress costs the same.)

Good thing for me I avoided any event that would require the wearing of a mess dress uniform...I never was a fan of dog and pony shows anyway, and if throwing on a mess dress and brownosing with O6s and above is what it was going to take to get on the fast-track, no thanks...

Chief_KO
02-05-2014, 06:10 PM
Lt Col socal1200r,

So to support your enlisted personnel (and unit as a whole) at PME graduations, annual awards, SNCO inductions, etc. you must have borrowed a mess dress. I would hate to think that you would just turn your back on your Airmen's accomplishments...

Rusty Jones
02-05-2014, 06:13 PM
You really can't compare the US military to militaries of most other First World countries. First off, relative to their countries' population, their militaries are a hell of a lot smaller than ours and are WAY more selective about who they let in, because they CAN be.

Hell, the British military will only take those who are UK citizens by birth. Naturalized citizens can't even join. Where, in the US, many non-citizens join in order TO become citizens faster.

The US military will NEVER have those requirements.

I would actually have no problem with the military requiring a degree in order for people to enlist... as long as they require a higher one for officers, and will never require enlisted to attain that level of degree during their careers.

Chief_KO
02-05-2014, 06:16 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong Rusty, but don't those countries also have conscripts to fill the ranks?

Rusty Jones
02-05-2014, 06:22 PM
No. VERY FEW First World countries do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-05-2014, 06:35 PM
No. VERY FEW First World countries do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

Interesting.

I hadn't realized Germany stopped their conscription program in 2011.

Chief_KO
02-05-2014, 06:47 PM
No. VERY FEW First World countries do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

Thanks! My experience is mostly with Korea (South) where my in-laws all had to serve a couple years. I had just assumed most other nations were likewise. Interesting to see so many had "alternative" service options.

socal1200r
02-05-2014, 10:24 PM
Lt Col socal1200r,

So to support your enlisted personnel (and unit as a whole) at PME graduations, annual awards, SNCO inductions, etc. you must have borrowed a mess dress. I would hate to think that you would just turn your back on your Airmen's accomplishments...

Chief

Let me put out a few more details. I've got over 25 years in, mainly in the ANG and AFR. Was on TAD for five years, right up to when I pinned on O5, and never attended any function that required a mess dress (dining ins, dining outs, AF Balls, etc), not my thing. However, had no issues attending ceremonies in Class As, which were few and far between. And I hope you're not one to disparage the ANG or AFR, since we all go thru the same training and schools, fly the same platforms, wear the same uniform, etc. I was a commander on G-series orders with UCMJ authority in Iraq, and had over 100 active duty people working for me, and wouldn't have traded that experience for anything. Now being a commander in CONUS is an entirely different thing, where I'm sure I would've had to invest in a mess dress for those group, wing, and higher dog and pony shows...

Chief_KO
02-06-2014, 01:34 AM
Chief

Let me put out a few more details. I've got over 25 years in, mainly in the ANG and AFR. Was on TAD for five years, right up to when I pinned on O5, and never attended any function that required a mess dress (dining ins, dining outs, AF Balls, etc), not my thing. However, had no issues attending ceremonies in Class As, which were few and far between. And I hope you're not one to disparage the ANG or AFR, since we all go thru the same training and schools, fly the same platforms, wear the same uniform, etc. I was a commander on G-series orders with UCMJ authority in Iraq, and had over 100 active duty people working for me, and wouldn't have traded that experience for anything. Now being a commander in CONUS is an entirely different thing, where I'm sure I would've had to invest in a mess dress for those group, wing, and higher dog and pony shows...

Sir I appreciate the additional information. I had never heard of any officer (AD, ANG, or AFRC) who did not have a mess dress, be it purchased or passed down.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
02-06-2014, 03:32 AM
Lt Col socal1200r,

So to support your enlisted personnel (and unit as a whole) at PME graduations, annual awards, SNCO inductions, etc. you must have borrowed a mess dress. I would hate to think that you would just turn your back on your Airmen's accomplishments...

You beat me to it. I started routinely attending ALS graduations, Chief Induction Ceremonies and Annual Awards Banquets as a 2LT. I'm sure the Lt Col borrowed a mess dress for all of these important events recognizing our enlisted force.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
02-06-2014, 03:34 AM
Chief

Let me put out a few more details. I've got over 25 years in, mainly in the ANG and AFR. Was on TAD for five years, right up to when I pinned on O5, and never attended any function that required a mess dress (dining ins, dining outs, AF Balls, etc), not my thing. However, had no issues attending ceremonies in Class As, which were few and far between. And I hope you're not one to disparage the ANG or AFR, since we all go thru the same training and schools, fly the same platforms, wear the same uniform, etc. I was a commander on G-series orders with UCMJ authority in Iraq, and had over 100 active duty people working for me, and wouldn't have traded that experience for anything. Now being a commander in CONUS is an entirely different thing, where I'm sure I would've had to invest in a mess dress for those group, wing, and higher dog and pony shows...

Make-believe Lt Col (ANG)? Just kidding...

giggawatt
02-06-2014, 06:08 AM
You really can't compare the US military to militaries of most other First World countries. First off, relative to their countries' population, their militaries are a hell of a lot smaller than ours and are WAY more selective about who they let in, because they CAN be.

Hell, the British military will only take those who are UK citizens by birth. Naturalized citizens can't even join. Where, in the US, many non-citizens join in order TO become citizens faster.

The US military will NEVER have those requirements.

I would actually have no problem with the military requiring a degree in order for people to enlist... as long as they require a higher one for officers, and will never require enlisted to attain that level of degree during their careers.

I think those UK citizens also include commonweath country citizens.

imported_DannyJ
02-06-2014, 03:05 PM
Education requirements for enlisted (minus CCAF) are ridiculous. I have my CCAF and a BA. That should be enough.

UncaRastus
02-07-2014, 04:23 PM
The USMC mess dress uniform is not priced at $400. For anyone SSGT and above, the entire monkey suit costs a lot more than that.

sandsjames
02-07-2014, 05:14 PM
Lt Col socal1200r,

So to support your enlisted personnel (and unit as a whole) at PME graduations, annual awards, SNCO inductions, etc. you must have borrowed a mess dress. I would hate to think that you would just turn your back on your Airmen's accomplishments...

For one, the Airmen don't really care if the Commander is there or not. As a matter of fact, it's a pain in the ass having to do the whole invitation thing. In addition to that, we certainly don't care whether they are wearing a mess dress or not.

Chief_KO
02-08-2014, 01:31 AM
For one, the Airmen don't really care if the Commander is there or not. As a matter of fact, it's a pain in the ass having to do the whole invitation thing. In addition to that, we certainly don't care whether they are wearing a mess dress or not.

I didn't say Amn Snuffy would care how their commander was dressed. The point is that attendees to any event wear the proper attire. Even Amn Snuffy would notice if his commander, first sergeant, or chief is not attending an event honor Snuffy's achievement. While Snuffy may not say anything to leadership, he will certainly voice his displeasure to his peers and most certainly put forth only the minimum amount of effort necessary to stay out of trouble.

Did I attend every event as a supervisor, SNCO, or chief? Of course not. If I could not, I always told my Airman in advance that I would be unable to attend, give the reason, and be sure to congratulate them later.

This goes beyond someone's rank, uniform, position...it's called common courtesy and respect.

sandsjames
02-08-2014, 01:08 PM
I suppose...if you consider completion of PME an achievement.

Chief_KO
02-08-2014, 02:42 PM
Yes, I do consider it an achievement, as does Miriam-Webster:
Achievement:
1. something that has been done or achieved through effort : a result of hard work
2. the act of achieving something : the state or condition of having achieved or accomplished something

Is it on par with winning an Olympic medal, Super Bowl, World Series, graduating from college, Nobel Prize...no. Never said it was.