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CJSmith
01-20-2014, 09:56 PM
Anyone see this yet.


According to the chief, rating Airmen as threes, fours and fives will be a thing of the past.

“We’re not even looking at those numbers fields in the future.” Cody said. “…We’re looking at do you fit into this word picture; does this word picture describe you as an Airman and your performance?”

Airmen will start to see the evolution of the enlisted evaluation system once the new feedback form, or Airman Comprehensive Assessment, is released, Cody said. The new assessment will force supervisors to get to know their subordinates by asking deeper questions about finances, relationships and other things that can impact an Airman’s career.

“Most people are used to being told they are the best, even though they know they really aren’t the best,” Cody said. “…We’re going to have to do a good job of working through that emotional response and reaction to it and realizing this is for the good of all.”

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467928/chiefchat-cmsaf-talks-about-force-management-eprs.aspx

BENDER56
01-20-2014, 10:59 PM
Believe it when you actually see it happen.

Sadly, such is the state of the AF that even the words of the CMSAF himself don't mean all that much.

Juggs
01-20-2014, 11:17 PM
Actually they're up in arms about airman being authorized black socks and bright shoes. Army patches, anarchy.

sandsjames
01-20-2014, 11:18 PM
Anyone see this yet.



http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467928/chiefchat-cmsaf-talks-about-force-management-eprs.aspx

If it's happens then it's another screw up, which is not surprising. If my supervisor ever asked me about finances, relationships, or any other personal stuff, I'd have told him it's none of his fucking business.

And, if it comes down to "not looking at ratings" then it comes down to nothing more than who writes the best (which already happens but the rating can help to balance it out).

Why won't they just do what's been recommended by almost every NCO and Airman I've seen discuss this and get to the GO/NO GO or something similar?

diabolic
01-20-2014, 11:32 PM
Why won't they just do what's been recommended by almost every NCO and Airman I've seen discuss this and get to the GO/NO GO or something similar?

I wish they would do something like this for the EPR. The CMSAF recently came to my base and someone asked him if they were going to do quotas on EPR's and he said no. Funny thing is that the Wing has already started doing that, and I guess the CMSAF was upset about it.

Whatever they do, they need to figure it out soon and push it out to the rest of the AF.

Gonzo432
01-21-2014, 12:30 AM
Actually they're up in arms about airman being authorized black socks and bright shoes. Army patches, anarchy.

And the chaos! Don't forget chaos, and mayhem! Not that guy from the Allstate commercial, but regular mayhem. Someone will wear their PT shorts as a hat, oh the humanity!!

BadBender
01-21-2014, 04:46 AM
Anyone see this yet.



http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467928/chiefchat-cmsaf-talks-about-force-management-eprs.aspx


I can imagine MY supervisor talking to me now... " So, are you married?" Me- "Yes sir, have been so for the last 15 years. My first and only wife." (my supervisor, on his third marriage responds) " Well good, great, how is that working out?" me in response " perfectly normal." My supervisor asking about finances " Are your finances in order?" Me - " Of course, I don't spend more than I earn, I have a IRA, two actually, and other investments." . I know he has multiple child support payments due each month. How is this going to help me "grow" ?

VCO
01-21-2014, 09:53 AM
I can imagine MY supervisor talking to me now... " So, are you married?" Me- "Yes sir, have been so for the last 15 years. My first and only wife." (my supervisor, on his third marriage responds) " Well good, great, how is that working out?" me in response " perfectly normal." My supervisor asking about finances " Are your finances in order?" Me - " Of course, I don't spend more than I earn, I have a IRA, two actually, and other investments." . I know he has multiple child support payments due each month. How is this going to help me "grow" ?because we all know every airman has a perfect marriage and is financially savvy. Think bigger than just you.

wxjumper
01-21-2014, 11:12 AM
"The new assessment will force supervisors to get to know their subordinates by asking deeper questions about finances, relationships and other things that can impact an Airman’s career."

Great, combine that with how you do volunteering at bake sales and the over fanaticism on PT, actual Job Performance may only count for about 20% of your EPR. My advice for new Airman coming in: The Air Force of today is all about how you look physically and how you come off to your supervisor. It is all superficial. If you want to get ahead, obsess about how you look in a uniform and hide any personal problems you may have at home. Nobody really cares about job performance any more. Just look and sound good and you can cruise your way up to SMSgt in 14 - 15 years. It's all about how you look doing it, actual substance does not matter!

imported_DannyJ
01-21-2014, 12:06 PM
I'm just disappointed that despite a lot of feedback on admin creep, he is still pushing to add more to the plate. Soon we'll just be doing admin and CBTs, mission be damned.

TJMAC77SP
01-21-2014, 01:55 PM
because we all know every airman has a perfect marriage and is financially savvy. Think bigger than just you.

And also think that perhaps someone with a less than perfect life DOES have advice to offer..............."don't do the dumb shit I have done". Knowing what led to past mistakes, whoever made them, can help others avoid them.

TSat75
01-21-2014, 02:05 PM
And also think that perhaps someone with a less than perfect life DOES have advice to offer..............."don't do the dumb shit I have done". Knowing what led to past mistakes, whoever made them, can help others avoid them.

There is no room for that kind of talk. We are all supposed to be perfect. Therefore, if we are all perfect, there should be no reason to ask these questions. That's a paradox...hmmmm

sandsjames
01-21-2014, 03:53 PM
And also think that perhaps someone with a less than perfect life DOES have advice to offer..............."don't do the dumb shit I have done". Knowing what led to past mistakes, whoever made them, can help others avoid them.

There are agencies...PROFESSIONALS...paid for and provided by the Air Force. Advice from non-expert supervisors does more harm than good.

Seems like a discussion we've had 100 times but it's simple:

Supervisor during feedback: "Pay your bills, take care of your family and other adult responsibilities. If you have any issues in these areas, any questions, here are the agencies who are trained to give you sound advice and are aware and educated on your options. Let me know you need help and we'll get you to the person who can best do that."

End of story...

Chief_KO
01-21-2014, 04:21 PM
If I were still in I would discuss relations...but do it in the voice of Grandma Klump from the Nutty Professor.

TJMAC77SP
01-21-2014, 06:49 PM
There are agencies...PROFESSIONALS...paid for and provided by the Air Force. Advice from non-expert supervisors does more harm than good.

Seems like a discussion we've had 100 times but it's simple:

Supervisor during feedback: "Pay your bills, take care of your family and other adult responsibilities. If you have any issues in these areas, any questions, here are the agencies who are trained to give you sound advice and are aware and educated on your options. Let me know you need help and we'll get you to the person who can best do that."

End of story...

End of a very simple story perhaps.

I just can't see sending every troop to support agencies for EVERY problem, regardless of it's severity. Military supervisors are responsible for the whole person and sometimes that means getting into the personal life. Sorry if you don't see that. Most problems develop over time and if a supervisor sees it early enough perhaps some well chosen words can help. I had a troop picked up for shoplifting a can of Pringles. The choice of items puzzled me so I asked him about it. He admitted that he had just been hungry. The base had recently allowed single airmen who worked shifts to choose BAS over a meal card (this was in the days of Sopwith Camels. and Eddie Rickenbacker). He was blowing his money and not saving enough to eat. The theft occurred just before payday. I sat down with him and worked out a budget. We got him back on a meal card. After a year he went back on BAS....no problems.

I am not a professional financial advisor BUT have had moments of stupid choices as an airman so was able to leverage that into a lesson for my troop. What the President calls a teachable moment. Should I have sent him to the family support center and its financial advisor (not every sure we had them back then but for the sake of argument....), perhaps.

SomeRandomGuy
01-21-2014, 07:13 PM
End of a very simple story perhaps.

Most problems develop over time and if a supervisor sees it early enough perhaps some well chosen words can help. I had a troop picked up for shoplifting a can of Pringles. The choice of items puzzled me so I asked him about it. He admitted that he had just been hungry. The base had recently allowed single airmen who worked shifts to choose BAS over a meal card (this was in the days of Sopwith Camels. and Eddie Rickenbacker). He was blowing his money and not saving enough to eat. The theft occurred just before payday. I sat down with him and worked out a budget. We got him back on a meal card. After a year he went back on BAS....no problems.

Interesting....I processed an Article 15 for a Major who got caught shoplifting a Wii remote control from the BX. I hope his supervisor explained to him that grown men shouldn't be playing video games. If he still insisted on video games his supervisor could have counseled him that the Playstation 3 is superior to the Wii and if he is going to steal he needed to make it worthwhile.

Chief_KO
01-21-2014, 07:37 PM
Interesting....I processed an Article 15 for a Major who got caught shoplifting a Wii remote control from the BX. I hope his supervisor explained to him that grown men shouldn't be playing video games. If he still insisted on video games his supervisor could have counseled him that the Playstation 3 is superior to the Wii and if he is going to steal he needed to make it worthwhile.

He could have been a missileer and has to study for a make up test...and since they are underpaid he was forced the shoplift. Have some empathy..)

VCO
01-21-2014, 08:06 PM
And also think that perhaps someone with a less than perfect life DOES have advice to offer..............."don't do the dumb shit I have done". Knowing what led to past mistakes, whoever made them, can help others avoid them.

you know, you are right. The divorced, broke supervisor supervisor WAS that financial savvy, happily married airman at one point.

TJMAC77SP
01-21-2014, 08:09 PM
Interesting....I processed an Article 15 for a Major who got caught shoplifting a Wii remote control from the BX. I hope his supervisor explained to him that grown men shouldn't be playing video games. If he still insisted on video games his supervisor could have counseled him that the Playstation 3 is superior to the Wii and if he is going to steal he needed to make it worthwhile.

I don't know about PS3 being superior to Wii but I am a PC guy myself. Having said that I am going to remain silent on this post since I just got off line from playing Combat Arms and I am older than your major.

TJMAC77SP
01-21-2014, 08:09 PM
you know, you are right. The divorced, broke supervisor supervisor WAS that financial savvy, happily married airman at one point.

There's a point.

sandsjames
01-21-2014, 09:42 PM
I don't know about PS3 being superior to Wii but I am a PC guy myself. Having said that I am going to remain silent on this post since I just got off line from playing Combat Arms and I am older than your major.

Exactly the point. You don't know, for sure, which is better. Just as you don't know what is better financially or personally for your troop. These issues are WAY too subjective.

If I briefed my troops on how I thought they would be best off financially and personally, leadership would be up in arms. That is why we need to cover the basics and know when to recommend more help. That's it. The problem is the Air Force (and now, obviously, many of it's members) think that we need to babysit down to the smallest detail.

Of course we need to know what's going on in our troops lives...we just don't need to be giving advice on shit that can deeply affect someone's life, and career, in a negative way if done wrong.

Chief_KO
01-21-2014, 10:17 PM
Don't live beyond your means and never marry above your weight class.

There's financial & relationship advice in one simple sentence...

Airborne
01-21-2014, 11:41 PM
Exactly the point. You don't know, for sure, which is better. Just as you don't know what is better financially or personally for your troop. These issues are WAY too subjective.

If I briefed my troops on how I thought they would be best off financially and personally, leadership would be up in arms. That is why we need to cover the basics and know when to recommend more help. That's it. The problem is the Air Force (and now, obviously, many of it's members) think that we need to babysit down to the smallest detail.

Of course we need to know what's going on in our troops lives...we just don't need to be giving advice on shit that can deeply affect someone's life, and career, in a negative way if done wrong.

I just tell my troops that if they are going to bounce a check, make sure it's not at the bx (and why are you still writing checks?). Dont get the star card and pay your bills on time. If you are going to smash strange, wrap it up. If you have a wife dont beat her. Here are the agencies the base offers. Youre a grown ass man now get back to work.

wxjumper
01-22-2014, 04:44 AM
I just tell my troops that if they are going to bounce a check, make sure it's not at the bx (and why are you still writing checks?). Dont get the star card and pay your bills on time. If you are going to smash strange, wrap it up. If you have a wife dont beat her. Here are the agencies the base offers. Youre a grown ass man now get back to work.

Disagree on the Star card. It is usually a great deal. Interest rates lower then a normal credit card, zero interest on clothing, and 5 - 10 cents off at the pump.

giggawatt
01-22-2014, 05:37 AM
Maybe advice is better received from someone who has been there and made the mistakes AND learned from them rather than the "experts".

BOSS302
01-22-2014, 07:09 AM
Maybe advice is better received from someone who has been there and made the mistakes AND learned from them rather than the "experts".

These kind of people do not belong in my Air Force. One mistake and you're outta here.

VCO
01-22-2014, 10:31 AM
These kind of people do not belong in my Air Force. One mistake and you're outta here.bingo! People that make mistakes do not fit the mold of a true airman according to the creed.

technomage1
01-22-2014, 10:36 AM
Is it just me or does Chiefchat sound like some sort of social network site for Chiefs?

technomage1
01-22-2014, 10:41 AM
Disagree on the Star card. It is usually a great deal. Interest rates lower then a normal credit card, zero interest on clothing, and 5 - 10 cents off at the pump.

And it's 10% off at the food court too for most restaurants. It can be abused, of course, but as long as there is some fiscal discipline the card can save money if used properly.

giggawatt
01-22-2014, 12:04 PM
These kind of people do not belong in my Air Force. One mistake and you're outta here.

You got me. I guess I was thinking in the past.

sandsjames
01-22-2014, 12:24 PM
And it's 10% off at the food court too for most restaurants. It can be abused, of course, but as long as there is some fiscal discipline the card can save money if used properly.

Even if it isn't used "properly", as long as it gets paid, it's none of my business.

BOSS302
01-22-2014, 02:26 PM
You got me. I guess I was thinking in the past.

You Power Pro pukes are always behind the curve. You might move faster in Air Force life if you all learned to walk upright.

MisterBen
01-22-2014, 05:12 PM
Who is the female airman sitting next to Chief? :)

imported_DannyJ
01-22-2014, 05:15 PM
Who is the female airman sitting next to Chief? :)

SSgt Richards...according to rank and name tag.

fufu
01-22-2014, 06:38 PM
Who is the female airman sitting next to Chief? :)

Noting an attractive female? Must be a rapist!!

fufu
01-22-2014, 06:40 PM
You Power Pro pukes are always behind the curve. You might move faster in Air Force life if you all learned to walk upright.

All CE personnel think they are hard core, HUA spewing warriors! Lame!

sandsjames
01-22-2014, 06:48 PM
All CE personnel think they are hard core, HUA spewing warriors! Lame!

Yep, that's your average CE troop. Nothing but business and mission all the time.

BOSS302
01-22-2014, 09:53 PM
All CE personnel think they are hard core, HUA spewing warriors! Lame!

You owe your freedom and your life to CE personnel.

BOSS302
01-22-2014, 09:56 PM
Who is the female airman sitting next to Chief? :)


SSgt Richards...according to rank and name tag.

That chick is "popular." Popular in that I remember her as an A1C about three years ago popping up on AFN news reports and dudes in the break room or shop saying, "Damn she's hot."

Now she's a SSgt. She had to have gotten BTZ and made Staff her first time.

You know you've been in USAFE/PACAF too long when you can start to trace the fucking careers of AFN news presenters...

fufu
01-22-2014, 10:55 PM
You owe your freedom and your life to CE personnel.

CE is a mixed bunch. Most are delusional, use "nonners" and "hua"...when in fact they are closer to nonners than they think. No midshift? Sq PT? Lunch breaks? Sounds like nonners to me!

LOL.

:-)

BOSS302
01-22-2014, 11:02 PM
CE is a mixed bunch. Most are delusional, use "nonners" and "hua"...when in fact they are closer to nonners than they think. No midshift? Sq PT? Lunch breaks? Sounds like nonners to me!

LOL.

:-)

You are describing Power Production and EA shops.

sandsjames
01-22-2014, 11:40 PM
You are describing Power Production and EA shops.

We never had a lunch break. The term "break" means that we were actually doing work that we would have taken a break from.

Golther
01-23-2014, 03:31 AM
If it's happens then it's another screw up, which is not surprising. If my supervisor ever asked me about finances, relationships, or any other personal stuff, I'd have told him it's none of his fucking business.

And, if it comes down to "not looking at ratings" then it comes down to nothing more than who writes the best (which already happens but the rating can help to balance it out).

Why won't they just do what's been recommended by almost every NCO and Airman I've seen discuss this and get to the GO/NO GO or something similar?

Except 96% of the air force id 5's so it doesn't even matter at that point.

technomage1
01-23-2014, 04:14 AM
You are describing Power Production and EA shops.

Not so.

"Lunch is a privilege and not a right" is a well known quote in my field. 90% of my lunches are grabbed in sandwich form in 5 minutes. I always pack since that's the only way I get to eat. You quickly learn to stash food too, just in case of unforeseen late nights.

I always love how the shops critize engineering or readiness. This usually occurs every Friday when they've shut down for a BBQ from 1200-1600 and are playing fooshball or playing cards in their break rooms.

jshiver15
01-23-2014, 07:22 AM
I just tell my troops that if they are going to bounce a check, make sure it's not at the bx (and why are you still writing checks?). Dont get the star card and pay your bills on time. If you are going to smash strange, wrap it up. If you have a wife dont beat her. Here are the agencies the base offers. Youre a grown ass man now get back to work.

I agree with everything you said except for the Star Card. I think it's a good way for young service members to build credit and be held accountable (because they will in fact contact your leadership if you don't pay). HOWEVER, I think to be approved for one there should be some type of feedback session with your supervisor or whoever to outline the consequences of not paying your bills on time. I think there should be better financial counseling to Airmen once they join in the first place, but when applying for and using credit I think we need to go even further.

giggawatt
01-23-2014, 07:29 AM
That chick is "popular." Popular in that I remember her as an A1C about three years ago popping up on AFN news reports and dudes in the break room or shop saying, "Damn she's hot."

Now she's a SSgt. She had to have gotten BTZ and made Staff her first time.

You know you've been in USAFE/PACAF too long when you can start to trace the fucking careers of AFN news presenters...

Are you talking about SSgt Alana Richards?

BOSS302
01-23-2014, 08:00 AM
Are you talking about SSgt Alana Richards?

Yes.

BOSS302
01-23-2014, 08:03 AM
Not so.

"Lunch is a privilege and not a right" is a well known quote in my field. 90% of my lunches are grabbed in sandwich form in 5 minutes. I always pack since that's the only way I get to eat. You quickly learn to stash food too, just in case of unforeseen late nights.

I always love how the shops critize engineering or readiness. This usually occurs every Friday when they've shut down for a BBQ from 1200-1600 and are playing fooshball or playing cards in their break rooms.

You are the worst.

technomage1
01-23-2014, 08:17 AM
You are the worst.

On break again? Enjoy the ribs.

BOSS302
01-23-2014, 08:22 AM
On break again? Enjoy the ribs.

Watch out for that "freshly cut grass", girl.

VCO
01-23-2014, 08:59 AM
Not so.

"Lunch is a privilege and not a right" is a well known quote in my field. 90% of my lunches are grabbed in sandwich form in 5 minutes. I always pack since that's the only way I get to eat. You quickly learn to stash food too, just in case of unforeseen late nights.

I always love how the shops critize engineering or readiness. This usually occurs every Friday when they've shut down for a BBQ from 1200-1600 and are playing fooshball or playing cards in their break rooms.
Really? Just wow. From a section where deploying is sitting at a computer checking Gmail while other folks are convoying all day. Must be trying to grab the lunch quick enough to avoid the inactivity timeout on your bi-curious porn site.

technomage1
01-23-2014, 09:19 AM
Watch out for that "freshly cut grass", girl.

Gee, I didn't know you cared. I'm touched. Really. Now enough touching before I need to file a harassment claim....:uncomfortableness:

technomage1
01-23-2014, 09:30 AM
Really? Just wow. From a section where deploying is sitting at a computer checking Gmail while other folks are convoying all day. Must be trying to grab the lunch quick enough to avoid the inactivity timeout on your bi-curious porn site.

I've worked in and/or supervised multiple CE flights & I can guarantee from your comment you have no idea what they do or how hard they work, either downrange or at home station. Engineering, readiness, or triple nickels work their butts off, same as the shops. There are positives and negatives to each job. the grass isn't as green as you think.

VCO
01-23-2014, 09:34 AM
I've worked in and/or supervised multiple CE flights & I can guarantee from your comment you have no idea what they do or how hard they work, either downrange or at home station. Engineering, readiness, or triple nickels work their butts off, same as the shops. There are positives and negatives to each job. the grass isn't as green as you think. Easy there Nancy. I wasn't referring to readiness or triple nickles.

technomage1
01-23-2014, 09:54 AM
Easy there Nancy. I wasn't referring to readiness or triple nickles.

Engineering works hard too. I've seen many a shop guy get a shock when they transfer in - usually to help the flight out due to deployments. And no, the flight personnel do not just sit and surf the web all day, either at home station or downrange. Sure, there is some screwing around sometimes, but no more - and in some cases substantially less due to said deployments - than I have observed working in ops or any other flight.

sandsjames
01-23-2014, 11:11 AM
I agree with everything you said except for the Star Card. I think it's a good way for young service members to build credit and be held accountable (because they will in fact contact your leadership if you don't pay). HOWEVER, I think to be approved for one there should be some type of feedback session with your supervisor or whoever to outline the consequences of not paying your bills on time. I think there should be better financial counseling to Airmen once they join in the first place, but when applying for and using credit I think we need to go even further.

A feedback from a supervisor in order for a troop to get a credit card? Sure. They should also get a feedback before they are allowed to get a drivers license, have kids, grocery shop, and everything else that's a personal decision.

VCO
01-23-2014, 12:01 PM
Engineering works hard too. I've seen many a shop guy get a shock when they transfer in - usually to help the flight out due to deployments. And no, the flight personnel do not just sit and surf the web all day, either at home station or downrange. Sure, there is some screwing around sometimes, but no more - and in some cases substantially less due to said deployments - than I have observed working in ops or any other flight.I've never seen a shop guy transfer into engineering. I know they would all jump at the chance to slack off though.

giggawatt
01-23-2014, 12:02 PM
This thread is now about the hardest working CE shop. Electricians need not apply. :)

BOSS302
01-23-2014, 12:03 PM
I've never seen a shop guy transfer into engineering. I know they would all jump at the chance to slack off though.

If I was being transferred to Engineering, I would throw up.

If I was being transferred to Power Pro, I would go but I would take a "How to Survive Gorilla Attacks" guide, a stab vest, and a tranquilizer gun with me.

BOSS302
01-23-2014, 12:04 PM
This thread is now about the hardest working CE shop. Electricians need not apply. :)

Electricians don't work. They spend a whole block of Tech School learning how to keep their hair from getting messed-up when wearing a hard hat.

technomage1
01-23-2014, 12:17 PM
If I was being transferred to Engineering, I would throw up.

If I was being transferred to Power Pro, I would go but I would take a "How to Survive Gorilla Attacks" guide, a stab vest, and a tranquilizer gun with me.

I knew one person - a structures troop- that spent a year in SABER as a PM. They retired afterwords and now make $79k a year in Texas doing that on the outside.

Say what you want, PMs, construction inspectors, surveyors, and GIS folks make good money on the outside & also play a key role on the inside. I also know they work just as hard as any other flight & also have one of the highest deployment rates in CE. I believe only EOD deploys more.

sandsjames
01-23-2014, 12:30 PM
I knew one person - a structures troop- that spent a year in SABER as a PM. They retired afterwords and now make $79k a year in Texas doing that on the outside.

Say what you want, PMs, construction inspectors, surveyors, and GIS folks make good money on the outside & also play a key role on the inside. I also know they work just as hard as any other flight & also have one of the highest deployment rates in CE. I believe only EOD deploys more.

All I ever see EAs do is stand along the side of the road for an hour staring through a hole in a stick in the ground.

BOSS302
01-23-2014, 12:43 PM
All I ever see EAs do is stand along the side of the road for an hour staring through a hole in a stick in the ground.

That and playing "Bubbleshooter" in their cubicles. When I was an airman in CE, I had to fight tooth & nail every morning in the shop just to use a Windows 95 computer that barely handled E-mail. Meanwhile, EA airmen had their own desk, dual-monitors, their own printer, and a leather chair.

Our snack bar had Moonpies, honey buns, and Check Cola. EA snack bars had creme brulee, cheese platters, sparkling wines, and fresh fruits.

TJMAC77SP
01-23-2014, 12:44 PM
Exactly the point. You don't know, for sure, which is better. Just as you don't know what is better financially or personally for your troop. These issues are WAY too subjective.

If I briefed my troops on how I thought they would be best off financially and personally, leadership would be up in arms. That is why we need to cover the basics and know when to recommend more help. That's it. The problem is the Air Force (and now, obviously, many of it's members) think that we need to babysit down to the smallest detail.

Of course we need to know what's going on in our troops lives...we just don't need to be giving advice on shit that can deeply affect someone's life, and career, in a negative way if done wrong.

Putting aside you ignoring the attempted humor of my post, you are taking a simple statement of what some believe is their duty (the total well being of their troops) and making it a lot more complicated than necessary. I get why but not every problem requires intervention of 'professionals'. Some problems that troops have is fairly simple and often the result of ignorance and lack of experience. A good supervisor will recognize the difference. I would never try to address a troop's serious substance abuse problem myself but may address a situation resulting from too much alcohol consumption if an isolated incident. Down the road that same troop may or may not need 'professional' intervention but then again, maybe not and if not there is no paper trail of the isolated incident.

I have been in discussions where the differences between managing civilians and leading military members is the topic. I always point to two incidents from my own past. In the civilian world these decisions more than likely would not have been made and very likely never addressed by a first line supervisor.

I was deployed with the 1st SFG (US Army) for a training exercise. One of my troops came up to me and informed me that he didn't think Amn Schuckatelly not had 'moved his bowels' since our arrival three days earlier. The team's senior medic overheard this and asked me if I indeed had a troop in such a condition (three days without a BM while consuming nothing but MREs is not typical and possibly not good for one's health). I told the SSG that I really didn't know. He said the troop had until sundown or he had a pill that would take care of it. My experience assured me the medic wasn't kidding and 'the pill' would very definitely work. I literally ordered the troop to go down the ravine and take a shit. In this case I think it was in the troop's best interest not to involve professionals.

The other example was during Desert Shield/Storm. One of my squad leaders approached me and told me that one of his troops was funking up the entire building where they lived. If anyone has been to Eskan Village I am speaking of the houses which we called hooches and billeted a 13 man squad in each. I went to check the hooch myself and upon opening the front door the smell was incredible, made intolerable when I entered the room where the troop actually slept. His roommate had moved into another room because of the smell. The squad leader had tried everything short of the infamous blanket party (which I am not a fan of). I had to order the troop to take a shower and then make that part of my daily routine with him for the next several weeks. I did it as privately as I could (a side benefit of this was the troop and I spoke often and he told me about the music of NWA and their current hit "Fuck the Police". My troop was from Compton and we had some serious talks about all that).

Sorry to go down the road a ways on this but I have always had a strong opinion on exactly what a military leader's job is and isn't.

I get that you have taken an absolute position on this and since neither of us actually supervises any military member it is a moot discussion but it is what it is.

TJMAC77SP
01-23-2014, 12:49 PM
You CE guys are tough on each other. I thought cops were bad.

No ammo troops here to pipe in how great they are ?!?!?!

technomage1
01-23-2014, 12:58 PM
All I ever see EAs do is stand along the side of the road for an hour staring through a hole in a stick in the ground.

That's part of their job. For which on the outside they earn on average $60k a year (average surveyor salary from the bureau of labor staistics). This is around $10k more than your average shop guy would earn.

What you don't see is them heading back to their shop afterwords for the calculations and/or data conversion and correction and putting the data into the database. This takes, as a rule of thumb, about the same time as the field time. So if they're out for an hour the resulting shop portion of the survey is another hour. You're also not seeing the prep work they have to do before the survey either. Research, preliminary site survey, etc. depending on the survey this takes anywhere from 10 minutes to several hours if they need to tie into existing control points. It isn't as easy or fast of a process as most people think.

BOSS302
01-23-2014, 02:04 PM
That's part of their job. For which on the outside they earn on average $60k a year (average surveyor salary from the bureau of labor staistics). This is around $10k more than your average shop guy would earn.

What you don't see is them heading back to their shop afterwords for the calculations and/or data conversion and correction and putting the data into the database. This takes, as a rule of thumb, about the same time as the field time. So if they're out for an hour the resulting shop portion of the survey is another hour. You're also not seeing the prep work they have to do before the survey either. Research, preliminary site survey, etc. depending on the survey this takes anywhere from 10 minutes to several hours if they need to tie into existing control points. It isn't as easy or fast of a process as most people think.

What a bunch of nerds. This is why EAs are not allowed to drink beer or play intramural sports with the "real men" NCOs/airmen of CE.

jshiver15
01-23-2014, 02:46 PM
A feedback from a supervisor in order for a troop to get a credit card? Sure. They should also get a feedback before they are allowed to get a drivers license, have kids, grocery shop, and everything else that's a personal decision.

Don't you have to take a driver's course (in some states) and pass an evaluation to get a driver's license? And yes, service members should have to get some type of counseling if they're having their first child. I've met quite a few Airmen that didn't know they needed to set their kid up on DEERS or contact finance or anything. Granted, these people probably shouldn't be having kids in the first place.

I really don't believe it's far fetched to sit down and express how much responsibility goes into opening a line of credit with an 18-19 year old kid who is self-sustaining for the first time in his/her life. I don't think I'd be as well of as I am now and have the credit I do for someone who isn't even 30 yet without my Mom and Dad explaining to me the value of paying your bills on time and the freedom of not owing another person money. Some of these cherry Airmen weren't as lucky as me to have such an upbringing.

sandsjames
01-23-2014, 03:01 PM
Don't you have to take a driver's course (in some states) and pass an evaluation to get a driver's license? Ok...?? Have you ever briefed your troops on driving by saying anything other than "Don't drink and drive, wear your seatbelt, etc..."? If they come to you with a problem with their license, would you give them all the answers? No, you'd send them to the DMV...the experts...the trained people. As a supervisor, you brief the basics.


And yes, service members should have to get some type of counseling if they're having their first child. I've met quite a few Airmen that didn't know they needed to set their kid up on DEERS or contact finance or anything. Granted, these people probably shouldn't be having kids in the first place. Riiiight...this isn't counseling about having children...this is counseling about the base agency they need to see to get it taken care of. Would you brief a troop on the proper way (your way) to raise a child?


I really don't believe it's far fetched to sit down and express how much responsibility goes into opening a line of credit with an 18-19 year old kid who is self-sustaining for the first time in his/her life. I don't think I'd be as well of as I am now and have the credit I do for someone who isn't even 30 yet without my Mom and Dad explaining to me the value of paying your bills on time and the freedom of not owing another person money. Some of these cherry Airmen weren't as lucky as me to have such an upbringing.There isn't much responsibility to a credit card. You get the bill...you pay it. Never had a discussion with my parents about credit and, by simply paying my bills, my rating is excellent. It's not rocket surgery.

sandsjames
01-23-2014, 03:02 PM
That's part of their job. For which on the outside they earn on average $60k a year (average surveyor salary from the bureau of labor staistics). This is around $10k more than your average shop guy would earn.

What you don't see is them heading back to their shop afterwords for the calculations and/or data conversion and correction and putting the data into the database. This takes, as a rule of thumb, about the same time as the field time. So if they're out for an hour the resulting shop portion of the survey is another hour. You're also not seeing the prep work they have to do before the survey either. Research, preliminary site survey, etc. depending on the survey this takes anywhere from 10 minutes to several hours if they need to tie into existing control points. It isn't as easy or fast of a process as most people think.

Ahh...yes...you input numbers into the computer and let the program take care of the rest. You guys are like the finance troops of CE.

VCO
01-23-2014, 07:25 PM
I knew one person - a structures troop- that spent a year in SABER as a PM. They retired afterwords and now make $79k a year in Texas doing that on the outside.

Say what you want, PMs, construction inspectors, surveyors, and GIS folks make good money on the outside & also play a key role on the inside. I also know they work just as hard as any other flight & also have one of the highest deployment rates in CE. I believe only EOD deploys more.
I've seen this too. We normally send our ROAD guys or otherwise slugs over there. Those guys (engineering) get zero respect from me. All I see them do is screw stuff up here. Most are crusty, incompetent civilians that waste millions of taxpayers dollars on fucked designs. The military EA folks aren't as bad. I've met some that are decent. They normally come work in OPS during deployments to stay busy.

jshiver15
01-24-2014, 07:50 AM
Ok...?? Have you ever briefed your troops on driving by saying anything other than "Don't drink and drive, wear your seatbelt, etc..."? If they come to you with a problem with their license, would you give them all the answers? No, you'd send them to the DMV...the experts...the trained people. As a supervisor, you brief the basics.

There are SEVERAL instances where I would have a discussion with my troop about driving without evening mentioning DUI. How about speeding tickets? Vehicle registration? Where to go to get an inspection? Etc., etc.


Riiiight...this isn't counseling about having children...this is counseling about the base agency they need to see to get it taken care of. Would you brief a troop on the proper way (your way) to raise a child?

Way to put words in my mouth (or text on my screen, if you will). I think you're just trying too hard.


There isn't much responsibility to a credit card. You get the bill...you pay it. Never had a discussion with my parents about credit and, by simply paying my bills, my rating is excellent. It's not rocket surgery.

If there isn't much responsibility when it comes to credit cards then why are so many Airmen drowning in debt?

BOSS302
01-24-2014, 09:29 AM
If there isn't much responsibility when it comes to credit cards then why are so many Airmen drowning in debt?

The same reason why a lot of airmen drive brand new BMWs and sports cars while in Europe. They confuse that COLA with "Fuck off money." Then they PCS back to the US and, maybe for the first month, think they are hot shit: "Oh damn son, I got my BMW on dubs while deez other airmen be in dat Chevy Beretta."

Once that first "real" paycheck comes with no COLA and no utility allowance, they realize they fucked up.

Airmen (see "airmen, E1-E4" and many times "E5") are young and have a tendency to be stupid. Much like college kids - go figure. I don't see colleges assigning "mentors" to pour over every detail of life with them. You screw up and you live and learn.

I'm not holding my airman's hand because I don't want them progressing through the ranks as the equivalent of a snowflake who wears a rubber crash helmet everywhere. And holding hands is gay.

jshiver15
01-24-2014, 09:38 AM
The same reason why a lot of airmen drive brand new BMWs and sports cars while in Europe. They confuse that COLA with "Fuck off money." Then they PCS back to the US and, maybe for the first month, think they are hot shit: "Oh damn son, I got my BMW on dubs while deez other airmen be in dat Chevy Beretta."

Once that first "real" paycheck comes with no COLA and no utility allowance, they realize they fucked up.

Airmen (see "airmen, E1-E4" and many times "E5") are young and have a tendency to be stupid. Much like college kids - go figure. I don't see colleges assigning "mentors" to pour over every detail of life with them. You screw up and you live and learn.

Completely agree. *Edit to add* My college did in fact have financial advisers and seminars that you were required to attend for first time college-loan borrowers (didn't apply to outside agency loans, obviously).


I'm not holding my airman's hand because I don't want them progressing through the ranks as the equivalent of a snowflake who wears a rubber crash helmet everywhere. And holding hands is gay.

I don't think it's necessary to hold their hand, but to just stress to them that there are consequences that can directly (Star Card payment delinquencies) and indirectly (other payments) involve your leadership. Especially to brand new Airmen fresh out of highschool.

BOSS302
01-24-2014, 09:48 AM
Completely agree. *Edit to add* My college did in fact have financial advisers and seminars that you were required to attend for first time college-loan borrowers (didn't apply to outside agency loans, obviously).



I don't think it's necessary to hold their hand, but to just stress to them that there are consequences that can directly (Star Card payment delinquencies) and indirectly (other payments) involve your leadership. Especially to brand new Airmen fresh out of highschool.

That makes sense. Some guidance is necessary. I do believe, however, that eventually the umbilical cord must be cut. Some supervisors just don't do that.

And some supervisors get a new airman and think it is okay to say, "Here's your feedback. Don't get in trouble. Now get out of my sight before I punch you." I'm sure they think they are real "old school real man NCO" types.

jshiver15
01-24-2014, 09:54 AM
That makes sense. Some guidance is necessary. I do believe, however, that eventually the umbilical cord must be cut. Some supervisors just don't do that.

And some supervisors get a new airman and think it is okay to say, "Here's your feedback. Don't get in trouble. Now get out of my sight before I punch you." I'm sure they think they are real "old school real man NCO" types.

Absolutely. And I really think this is something that would normally be stressed to really young Airmen. I know at this point in my life, I'd probably be somewhat offended if I had a brand new supervisor who tried to discuss the merits of financial freedom and whatnot. But then again, I'm fully aware of how much debt and delinquency can burden your career as I've seen my friends go thru it. In fact, my friend (who is without a doubt one of the dumbest people when it comes to common sense I've ever met) didn't know how to make a car payment and he just didn't pay it for 3 months. He didn't find out that he was past due until the First Sergeant pulled him off the ops floor and took him to see the commander.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 10:51 AM
A feedback from a supervisor in order for a troop to get a credit card? Sure. They should also get a feedback before they are allowed to get a drivers license, have kids, grocery shop, and everything else that's a personal decision.

I'd like to give you some feedback about being a bitter retired TSgt, but you'd probably say that I'm just obsessing over your posts, and that it is your personal decision to be bitter retired TSgt.

So, I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and not say anything.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 11:18 AM
There are SEVERAL instances where I would have a discussion with my troop about driving without evening mentioning DUI. How about speeding tickets? Vehicle registration? Where to go to get an inspection? Etc., etc. Exactly...you tell them where to go to get it taken care of...or you tell them to be responsible while doing it. You don't give them advice on the best way to do it.




If there isn't much responsibility when it comes to credit cards then why are so many Airmen drowning in debt?

Who cares, as long as they are paying their bills? As I stated, if they AREN'T paying the bills, then it's an issue.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 11:19 AM
I'd like to give you some feedback about being a bitter retired TSgt, but you'd probably say that I'm just obsessing over your posts, and that it is your personal decision to be bitter retired TSgt.

So, I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and not say anything.You were almost able to keep your mouth shut, but you had to post this statement that isn't important to anything, other than how you feel personally about me.

You really did quite well for a couple weeks of ignoring me, but you just couldn't stay away.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 11:20 AM
Don't financial advisors come through in FTAC?

jshiver15
01-24-2014, 11:40 AM
Exactly...you tell them where to go to get it taken care of...or you tell them to be responsible while doing it. You don't give them advice on the best way to do it.

Either you have a reading comprehension issue or you're just manipulating people's words/intent for the hell of it.


Who cares, as long as they are paying their bills? As I stated, if they AREN'T paying the bills, then it's an issue.

See above.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 12:03 PM
Either you have a reading comprehension issue or you're just manipulating people's words/intent for the hell of it.



See above.

Not sure what you mean...maybe this will clarify my intent:

Troops should be briefed on being responsible when it comes to certain aspects of their lives. Pay your bills, take care of your family, stay out of trouble, be an adult. This is ABSOLUTELY the responsibility of the supervisor to do so.

Troops should NOT be advised by non-expert supervisors about that supervisors opinions as to the best way to take care of finances, family, etc. There are too many different views, morals, etc, from different people for anyone to be telling a troop the "best way" to do these things, because there is no "best way".

Supervisors should be observant of their troops, looking for the keys we are trained on as to when things might be going wrong with the troop. At that point, we should sit down with the troop and try to find out what's going wrong.

At that point, we should refer the troop to the expert that can best help with the situation. A supervisor shouldn't be helping the guy set up a budget. The supervisor shouldn't be giving parenting tips. The supervisor shouldn't be giving relationship advice.

I can see it now. Guy doesn't pay his bills, gets called into the Shirts office with the supervisor.

"Amn Brokeass...why didn't you pay your bills?"

"Sir, I did my best. I followed the budget TSgt Supervisor helped me work out. I followed it to a tee. It just didn't work."

"TSgt Supervisor, why didn't you send Amn Brokeass to AFRC to get some help?"

"Shirt, I was trying to be more involved in my troops life."

jshiver15
01-24-2014, 12:16 PM
Not sure what you mean...maybe this will clarify my intent:

Troops should be briefed on being responsible when it comes to certain aspects of their lives. Pay your bills, take care of your family, stay out of trouble, be an adult. This is ABSOLUTELY the responsibility of the supervisor to do so.

Troops should NOT be advised by non-expert supervisors about that supervisors opinions as to the best way to take care of finances, family, etc. There are too many different views, morals, etc, from different people for anyone to be telling a troop the "best way" to do these things, because there is no "best way".

Supervisors should be observant of their troops, looking for the keys we are trained on as to when things might be going wrong with the troop. At that point, we should sit down with the troop and try to find out what's going wrong.

At that point, we should refer the troop to the expert that can best help with the situation. A supervisor shouldn't be helping the guy set up a budget. The supervisor shouldn't be giving parenting tips. The supervisor shouldn't be giving relationship advice.

I can see it now. Guy doesn't pay his bills, gets called into the Shirts office with the supervisor.

"Amn Brokeass...why didn't you pay your bills?"

"Sir, I did my best. I followed the budget TSgt Supervisor helped me work out. I followed it to a tee. It just didn't work."

"TSgt Supervisor, why didn't you send Amn Brokeass to AFRC to get some help?"

"Shirt, I was trying to be more involved in my troops life."

The hell are you talking about? Who said ANYTHING remotely close to what you're talking about?

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 12:20 PM
The hell are you talking about? Who said ANYTHING remotely close to what you're talking about?

Read the OP...they want supervisors to be the "experts" in all of these areas.

jshiver15
01-24-2014, 12:30 PM
Read the OP...they want supervisors to be the "experts" in all of these areas.

That isn't at all what I was stating in my original post. Sorry if it came off as me being a supporter of such initiatives. That isn't the case, at all.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 12:49 PM
You were almost able to keep your mouth shut, but you had to post this statement that isn't important to anything, other than how you feel personally about me.

You really did quite well for a couple weeks of ignoring me, but you just couldn't stay away.

It was a friendly jab, but it is also very relevant to the scope and tone of your posts on this issue.

Since you felt emasculated as an NCO, you want other NCOs to be marginalized also. Hence, your contention that front line supervisors are not capable of giving advice or counseling sessions. You want them to automatically refer airmen to base-level agencies and keep their mouths shut.

I can understand how you feel, but you are taking the extreme position due to being embittered and sour.

I guess, I could have just referred you to a qualified bitterness counselor, but I was just trying to handle this at the shop-level.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 12:57 PM
It was a friendly jab, but it is also very relevant to the scope and tone of your posts on this issue.

Since you felt emasculated as an NCO, you want other NCOs to be marginalized also. Hence, your contention that front line supervisors are not capable of giving advice or counseling sessions. You want them to automatically refer airmen to base-level agencies and keep their mouths shut.

I can understand how you feel, but you are taking the extreme position due to being embittered and sour.

I guess, I could have just referred you to a qualified bitterness counselor, but I was just trying to handle this at the shop-level.

I never felt emasculated as an NCO. I'm sure this doesn't surprise you, but I never cared whether I was an NCO or not. I'm no leader, which I'm sure you see as obvious. I cared about one thing. Doing the job. All the other stuff wasn't important to me. I was placed in an NCOIC position, because of my rank, and I hated it. I never attempted to make MSgt because I wanted nothing to do with having more responsibility. I'm not good at disciplining troops. I'm not good at focusing on the extra stuff required of a "leader" in the Air Force. A good leader would never have put me in that position. Hell, I can look through my EPRs and tell instantly that I was great at the job, great at the teamwork aspect, great at being part of a team that got the mission done. I was never even good at the leadership stuff.

It's not bitterness at all. It's indifference. It's also not wanting to be a babysitter of grown men.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 07:58 PM
I never felt emasculated as an NCO. I'm sure this doesn't surprise you, but I never cared whether I was an NCO or not. I'm no leader, which I'm sure you see as obvious. I cared about one thing. Doing the job. All the other stuff wasn't important to me. I was placed in an NCOIC position, because of my rank, and I hated it. I never attempted to make MSgt because I wanted nothing to do with having more responsibility. I'm not good at disciplining troops. I'm not good at focusing on the extra stuff required of a "leader" in the Air Force. A good leader would never have put me in that position. Hell, I can look through my EPRs and tell instantly that I was great at the job, great at the teamwork aspect, great at being part of a team that got the mission done. I was never even good at the leadership stuff.

It's not bitterness at all. It's indifference. It's also not wanting to be a babysitter of grown men.

This is so sad, and so infuriating, on so many levels.

I knew dozens of guys like you during my career, and while I must admit that having an ace technician on the team was an asset, guys like the one you describe, are a significant challenge to have on a flight. They have to be put in their place, quickly, or they will poison the environment and destroy morale.

The sad part about it is, whether you liked it or not, you were a leader and an NCO.

You mentioned not having the desire to baby sit grown men? Well, I was just a scared kid when I showed up at my first duty station.

Still, I kept my mouth shut and depended on that young SSgt to show me the job and get me through my first stand-eval. He showed me the job, and I got a great score on that stand-eval; I listened to everything, including his bitching and moaning about the hopelessly out-of-touch MSgt and LT that was in charge of our flight.

I'm sure I could have used some guidance (what you appear to call baby sitting) in many aspects of my life. I was only 19 years old for crying out loud, but I had one of those supervisors that was all job and never stuck his nose into my personal life.

Shit, if I had a supervisor that wasn't afraid to ask me questions about what was going on with me, I might have avoided marrying the first girl that had sex with me, the biggest mistake of my life.

No, I don't blame my first supervisor for that; I only bring it up to point out that many of these "grown men" you bitch about having to baby sit are indeed, still kids, in so many regards.

What I find so infuriating about guys like the NCO you describe, is that they are perfectly willing to poison a new airman against the the MSgt and the LT, but totally unwilling to step in and be a "big brother" when needed.

That leaves a 19 or 20 year old kid, essentially cut-off, from any wisdom that they may so desperately need at a crucial time in their lives.

What makes it doubly bad is, guys like that are so often, highly intelligent and have rich life experiences, but because they have a stick up their ass, they won't share their wealth of knowledge with that 19 or 20 year old airman.

Once I did become a MSgt, I knew how to identify the "reluctant NCO" and either put them on notice to check the shitty attitude, or found them a job outside of my section.

PS

I am not saying you were a poisoner, because maybe you weren't. However, that post of yours did spark a mental image of some crappy NCOs I knew during my time in.

I do enjoy the banter with you and think your opinions often stimulate thought, even though I often disagree with you.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 09:58 PM
This is so sad, and so infuriating, on so many levels.

I knew dozens of guys like you during my career, and while I must admit that having an ace technician on the team was an asset, guys like the one you describe, are a significant challenge to have on a flight. They have to be put in their place, quickly, or they will poison the environment and destroy morale.

The sad part about it is, whether you liked it or not, you were a leader and an NCO.

You mentioned not having the desire to baby sit grown men? Well, I was just a scared kid when I showed up at my first duty station.

Still, I kept my mouth shut and depended on that young SSgt to show me the job and get me through my first stand-eval. He showed me the job, and I got a great score on that stand-eval; I listened to everything, including his bitching and moaning about the hopelessly out-of-touch MSgt and LT that was in charge of our flight.

I'm sure I could have used some guidance (what you appear to call baby sitting) in many aspects of my life. I was only 19 years old for crying out loud, but I had one of those supervisors that was all job and never stuck his nose into my personal life.

Shit, if I had a supervisor that wasn't afraid to ask me questions about what was going on with me, I might have avoided marrying the first girl that had sex with me, the biggest mistake of my life.

No, I don't blame my first supervisor for that; I only bring it up to point out that many of these "grown men" you bitch about having to baby sit are indeed, still kids, in so many regards.

What I find so infuriating about guys like the NCO you describe, is that they are perfectly willing to poison a new airman against the the MSgt and the LT, but totally unwilling to step in and be a "big brother" when needed.

That leaves a 19 or 20 year old kid, essentially cut-off, from any wisdom that they may so desperately need at a crucial time in their lives.

What makes it doubly bad is, guys like that are so often, highly intelligent and have rich life experiences, but because they have a stick up their ass, they won't share their wealth of knowledge with that 19 or 20 year old airman.

Once I did become a MSgt, I knew how to identify the "reluctant NCO" and either put them on notice to check the shitty attitude, or found them a job outside of my section.

PS

I am not saying you were a poisoner, because maybe you weren't. However, that post of yours did spark a mental image of some crappy NCOs I knew during my time in.

I do enjoy the banter with you and think your opinions often stimulate thought, even though I often disagree with you.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I wasn't a problem child. I didn't bitch and moan to the troops about leadership. I wasn't resistant to anything. I just know that I am NOT a leader. The AF creates this with the promotion system. There is no system in place to keep a non-leader from making rank and be forced into a leadership position. My EPRs were fine, but I could have had 3s and still made TSgt and still been in an NCOIC position, simply because of my rank.

I had the leadership block marked down each and every EPR and still became an NCOIC, simply because that's the way the promotion system works. A smart system would look at those ratings and maybe make the guys in charge think "Hey, maybe it's not in our best interest to have this guy be an NCOIC". But that's not the way it works. A person is automatically place in that position based solely on one thing. Rank. Sure, they can lose that position, but they are still placed into it.

Take any other job. If you are working at a civilian job and they see that you are a good worker but can't lead do you think they will promote you? Not a chance.

Unfortunately, the Air Force thinks that everybody is a leader, or should be able to learn how to lead. That's just not the way it is. With such a large cross section of the country in the service, you'd think the system wouldn't be built around every being, or becoming, a leader. It's not feasible and it's not possible.

Unfortunately, no matter how many EPRs you have saying you aren't a leader, when you make rank (based solely on a written test) you are going to be placed into that position.

We've discussed the up or out system on here before. Some people like it, some people don't. It has nothing to do with wanting to fight the system (no matter how often I may posture that way on this forum). It has to do with knowing my limitations.

I'd rather have someone work for me who knows they aren't a leader before I'd have someone work for me (or work for someone) who thinks they are a leader but aren't.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 11:33 PM
I think you are misunderstanding me. I wasn't a problem child. I didn't bitch and moan to the troops about leadership. I wasn't resistant to anything. I just know that I am NOT a leader. The AF creates this with the promotion system. There is no system in place to keep a non-leader from making rank and be forced into a leadership position. My EPRs were fine, but I could have had 3s and still made TSgt and still been in an NCOIC position, simply because of my rank.

I had the leadership block marked down each and every EPR and still became an NCOIC, simply because that's the way the promotion system works. A smart system would look at those ratings and maybe make the guys in charge think "Hey, maybe it's not in our best interest to have this guy be an NCOIC". But that's not the way it works. A person is automatically place in that position based solely on one thing. Rank. Sure, they can lose that position, but they are still placed into it.

Take any other job. If you are working at a civilian job and they see that you are a good worker but can't lead do you think they will promote you? Not a chance.

Unfortunately, the Air Force thinks that everybody is a leader, or should be able to learn how to lead. That's just not the way it is. With such a large cross section of the country in the service, you'd think the system wouldn't be built around every being, or becoming, a leader. It's not feasible and it's not possible.

Unfortunately, no matter how many EPRs you have saying you aren't a leader, when you make rank (based solely on a written test) you are going to be placed into that position.

We've discussed the up or out system on here before. Some people like it, some people don't. It has nothing to do with wanting to fight the system (no matter how often I may posture that way on this forum). It has to do with knowing my limitations.

I'd rather have someone work for me who knows they aren't a leader before I'd have someone work for me (or work for someone) who thinks they are a leader but aren't.

That was a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out response to my post; however, overruled!

If you want to expand this to the arena of the civilian job market, that is just fine by me. I still contend that you, as an older and wiser head, are still obligated to play the role of the shepherd to the "young-lings."

How else are these young pups ever going to learn anything about, both, the job, and life, if not from our brightest and best technicians?

No Sir!

Mr Sandsjames,

You wield much more power and influence than you realize. Just by the virtue of questioning authority in an articulate manner, you should be willing to temper your words with reasonable thoughts and brotherly guidance to those younger than you.

I can claim that space is the final frontier, and a guy like you, will point out that it is made in a Hollywood basement.

However, the truth is that, Adelron is not that far away.

PS

Bonus internet points to all that can bag all the movie and song quotes I used in that post. ;)

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 11:41 PM
That was a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out response to my post; however, overruled!

If you want to expand this to the arena of the civilian job market, that is just fine by me. I still contend that you, as an older and wiser head, are still obligated to play the role of the shepherd to the "young-lings."

How else are these young pups ever going to learn anything about, both, the job, and life, if not from our brightest and best technicians?

No Sir!

Mr Sandsjames,

You wield much more power and influence than you realize. Just by the virtue of questioning authority in an articulate manner, you should be willing to temper your words with reasonable thoughts and brotherly guidance to those younger than you.

I can claim that space is the final frontier, and a guy like you, will point out that it is made in a Hollywood basement.

However, the truth is that, Adelron is not that far away.

PS

Bonus internet points to all that can bag all the movie and song quotes I used in that post. ;)

It's Alderaan...lyrics are Californication...

Of course one guides the younger troops...but my point isn't about that. It's about being a leader. I can "lead" (before retirement!!!!!!!!), but I'm no leader. Troops see through that quickly and it doesn't help anyone.

Are you trying to say that anyone can become a good leader?

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 11:56 PM
It's Alderaan...lyrics are Californication...

Of course one guides the younger troops...but my point isn't about that. It's about being a leader. I can "lead" (before retirement!!!!!!!!), but I'm no leader. Troops see through that quickly and it doesn't help anyone.

Are you trying to say that anyone can become a good leader?

Yes!

You just scored a 100 percent on my geek test. Spend a little more time on contemplating the aspects of being a good steward and mentor, than you do on the spelling of mythical planet names, and you just might make a leader of young men and women.

Besides, three posts ago you gave a total FUCK YOU to any kind of leadership role. Either I misread that or you are a very artful backpedaler.

sandsjames
01-25-2014, 12:05 AM
Yes!

You just scored a 100 percent on my geek test. Spend a little more time on contemplating the aspects of being a good steward and mentor, than you do on the spelling of mythical planet names, and you just might make a leader of young men and women.

Love being a geek. Actually have my Storm Trooper t-shirt on right now.

No need to be a good steward or mentor as a Commissary grocery bagger. As long as I don't pack chemicals with food I'm good. Zero responsibility. Don't have to spend a second thinking about what the other baggers are doing. Could possibly be the best "job" in the world. And, being at Sheppard, I can tell the students about the good ol' days when they come through my line. You'd be amazed at how much they tip for one box of Pop Tarts when you make up...I mean...tell them some good war stories. I should probably brief them not to waste their money on tipping and to eat healthier so they can be in peak physical condition. However, when it comes down to me making $5 or them saving $5, it's a pretty easy decision.

Measure Man
01-25-2014, 12:08 AM
That isn't at all what I was stating in my original post. Sorry if it came off as me being a supporter of such initiatives. That isn't the case, at all.

Reminds me of an Airman I knew that went to ADAPT. I don't know if they still do it, but in the old day they had this "team approach" thing...there would be the troop, his supervisor, his first sergeant or commander, and the counselor...and would go over the guys goals, and progress, etc. They would schedule all the guys in one squadron consecutively so the shirt/commander could do them all at once.

Anyway...the supervisor of this Airman was a SSgt. So, he had two back-to-back appointments...once he got done being the supervisor, he had to change chairs and the next appointment was him as the counselee...lol

Measure Man
01-25-2014, 12:09 AM
Read the OP...they want supervisors to be the "experts" in all of these areas.

Reminds me of an Airman I knew that went to ADAPT. I don't know if they still do it, but in the old day they had this "team approach" thing...there would be the troop, his supervisor, his first sergeant or commander, and the counselor...and would go over the guys goals, and progress, etc. They would schedule all the guys in one squadron consecutively so the shirt/commander could do them all at once.

Anyone...the supervisor of this Airman was a SSgt. So, he had two back-to-back appointments...once he got done being the supervisor, he had to change chairs and the next appointment was him as the counselee...lol

Absinthe Anecdote
01-25-2014, 12:57 AM
Reminds me of an Airman I knew that went to ADAPT. I don't know if they still do it, but in the old day they had this "team approach" thing...there would be the troop, his supervisor, his first sergeant or commander, and the counselor...and would go over the guys goals, and progress, etc. They would schedule all the guys in one squadron consecutively so the shirt/commander could do them all at once.

Anyone...the supervisor of this Airman was a SSgt. So, he had two back-to-back appointments...once he got done being the supervisor, he had to change chairs and the next appointment was him as the counselee...lol

What happened to your NASCAR avatar?

Measure Man
01-25-2014, 03:38 AM
What happened to your NASCAR avatar?

Deleted it.

TJMAC77SP
01-25-2014, 01:34 PM
I had a troop once who only wanted to do his job. He was fond of saying..."I am just a street cop". Aside from the ridiculousness of that statement in itself he was missing part of the picture. He was a staff sergeant. He balked at conducting feedback sessions. He really didn't even want to supervise troops. He just wanted to jump in his patrol car and stop the bad guys............I told him I could arrange for that to happen but we would have to change his title to Senior Airman.

In the civilian world you can join a civilian police department as a patrolman/officer and retire 30 years later as a patrolman/officer. The military isn't that animal. In order to stay in you must achieve higher and higher rank. With each rank comes expanded responsibilities. This is no secret. It is spelled out from the day you enter the military and banged into your head in every PME course you attend.

We can dance and rant around this topic all day and night. It doesn't change a basic fact of military leadership. We are responsible for the lives of those we supervise.

Chief_KO
01-25-2014, 01:44 PM
I had a troop once who only wanted to do his job. He was fond of saying..."I am just a street cop". Aside from the ridiculousness of that statement in itself he was missing part of the picture. He was a staff sergeant. He balked at conducting feedback sessions. He really didn't even want to supervise troops. He just wanted to jump in his patrol car and stop the bad guys............I told him I could arrange for that to happen but we would have to change his title to Senior Airman.

In the civilian world you can join a civilian police department as a patrolman/officer and retire 30 years later as a patrolman/officer. The military isn't that animal. In order to stay in you must achieve higher and higher rank. With each rank comes expanded responsibilities. This is no secret. It is spelled out from the day you enter the military and banged into your head in every PME course you attend.

We can dance and rant around this topic all day and night. It doesn't change a basic fact of military leadership. We are responsible for the lives of those we supervise.

Great post. I bolded the part that made me chuckle. Reminded me of the "Security Police / Law Enforcement" recruiting video (shown on those oversized government video machines) from 1982. It was like an episode of "Starsky & Hutch". Even had LEs doing the slide across the hood to jump behind the wheel maneuver.
My recruiter was honest with me (I was 21 at the time, so not a wide-eyed teen), all potential recruits had to be shown the video. He pointed out that it didn't show that SP standing next to the B-52 at Minot counting the rivets out of boredom.

sandsjames
01-25-2014, 02:03 PM
I had a troop once who only wanted to do his job. He was fond of saying..."I am just a street cop". Aside from the ridiculousness of that statement in itself he was missing part of the picture. He was a staff sergeant. He balked at conducting feedback sessions. He really didn't even want to supervise troops. He just wanted to jump in his patrol car and stop the bad guys............I told him I could arrange for that to happen but we would have to change his title to Senior Airman.

In the civilian world you can join a civilian police department as a patrolman/officer and retire 30 years later as a patrolman/officer. The military isn't that animal. In order to stay in you must achieve higher and higher rank. With each rank comes expanded responsibilities. This is no secret. It is spelled out from the day you enter the military and banged into your head in every PME course you attend.

We can dance and rant around this topic all day and night. It doesn't change a basic fact of military leadership. We are responsible for the lives of those we supervise.

The problem is that there is no system in place to keep non-leaders from being put in the position. One can have straight 3 EPRs their entire career and still make (until boards) E7. Whether or not the position comes with responsibility is a moot point. The fact is that you don't have to have the skills to be put in that position. It's a system set up to fail.

TJMAC77SP
01-25-2014, 06:01 PM
The problem is that there is no system in place to keep non-leaders from being put in the position. One can have straight 3 EPRs their entire career and still make (until boards) E7. Whether or not the position comes with responsibility is a moot point. The fact is that you don't have to have the skills to be put in that position. It's a system set up to fail.

Well, actually there is. It's called voluntary separation at the end of enlistment.

BOSS302
01-25-2014, 06:52 PM
The problem is that there is no system in place to keep non-leaders from being put in the position. One can have straight 3 EPRs their entire career and still make (until boards) E7. Whether or not the position comes with responsibility is a moot point. The fact is that you don't have to have the skills to be put in that position. It's a system set up to fail.

What's wrong with a "3" EPR?

sandsjames
01-25-2014, 10:17 PM
Well, actually there is. It's called voluntary separation at the end of enlistment.

Right...if the troop chooses. But is the troop chooses to stay and ride it out, the Air Force is stuck. They are fucking themselves with the system that they have in place.

Hell, a troop with all 3s can do 20 years while a troop with all 5s, minus one PT failure resulting in a referral, gets the boot. Are you going to claim the system isn't shitty?

sandsjames
01-25-2014, 10:17 PM
What's wrong with a "3" EPR?

Not a damn thing!!

TJMAC77SP
01-26-2014, 01:23 AM
Right...if the troop chooses. But is the troop chooses to stay and ride it out, the Air Force is stuck. They are fucking themselves with the system that they have in place.

Hell, a troop with all 3s can do 20 years while a troop with all 5s, minus one PT failure resulting in a referral, gets the boot. Are you going to claim the system isn't shitty?

But if a troop, knowing all that is expected of him/her by reenlisting and accepting promotions that come along, has no intention of fulfilling the responsibilities or has no desire to do so, is it a problem with the system or the troop?

As to the debacle of the PT program etc............different thread altogether. We are (or were) speaking strictly of the responsibilities of leaders to their troops.

Airborne
01-26-2014, 03:47 AM
But if a troop, knowing all that is expected of him/her by reenlisting and accepting promotions that come along, has no intention of fulfilling the responsibilities or has no desire to do so, is it a problem with the system or the troop?

As to the debacle of the PT program etc............different thread altogether. We are (or were) speaking strictly of the responsibilities of leaders to their troops.

True, but we still continue to put Superintendent on MSgt duty titles just because. And we create positions for all these Msgts just because the system tells us to do so. That perennial 3 MSgt might be a decent wrench turner but he cant and has to be a Supt because of the way the system is set up.

TJMAC77SP
01-26-2014, 04:49 AM
True, but we still continue to put Superintendent on MSgt duty titles just because. And we create positions for all these Msgts just because the system tells us to do so. That perennial 3 MSgt might be a decent wrench turner but he cant and has to be a Supt because of the way the system is set up.

Not sure how that relates to what I said. I wasn't speaking of titles. They are just that. I held a Supt title when I was a MSgt and I knew that was simply for EPR purposes. It didn't effect how I viewed my duties and responsibilities one iota.

giggawatt
01-26-2014, 06:04 AM
That was a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out response to my post; however, overruled!

If you want to expand this to the arena of the civilian job market, that is just fine by me. I still contend that you, as an older and wiser head, are still obligated to play the role of the shepherd to the "young-lings."

How else are these young pups ever going to learn anything about, both, the job, and life, if not from our brightest and best technicians?

No Sir!

Mr Sandsjames,

You wield much more power and influence than you realize. Just by the virtue of questioning authority in an articulate manner, you should be willing to temper your words with reasonable thoughts and brotherly guidance to those younger than you.

I can claim that space is the final frontier, and a guy like you, will point out that it is made in a Hollywood basement.

However, the truth is that, Adelron is not that far away.

PS

Bonus internet points to all that can bag all the movie and song quotes I used in that post. ;)

Without reading further into the thread, I got "My Cousin Vinny", and "Calinfornication. What did I miss?

Stalwart
01-26-2014, 08:37 AM
But if a troop, knowing all that is expected of him/her by reenlisting and accepting promotions that come along, has no intention of fulfilling the responsibilities or has no desire to do so, is it a problem with the system or the troop?


True, but we still continue to put Superintendent on MSgt duty titles just because. And we create positions for all these Msgts just because the system tells us to do so. That perennial 3 MSgt might be a decent wrench turner but he cant and has to be a Supt because of the way the system is set up.

Both examples of the Peter Principle: organizations risk filling management roles with people who are incompetent if they promote those who are performing well at their current role, rather than those who have proven abilities at the intended role.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-26-2014, 10:52 AM
Well, actually there is. It's called voluntary separation at the end of enlistment.

Why would they do that? They can stay in 20 years and whine and moan about everything being so fucked up, and spread their negative attitude to anyone foolish enough to pulled into their perpetual dark cloud of gloom.

You will never make a guy like that happy, they will always find fault and see the dark side of any issue.

Chief_KO
01-26-2014, 11:59 AM
Too much attention/energy is spent on the duty title kabuki dance (a direct result of too much officer influence on the enlisted evaluation system).
AFI 36-2618 (The Little Brown Book) specifies authorized duty titles.
7.2.7. Superintendent. Used for SNCOs in charge of group- or wing-level functions, or in a squadron when having either oversight of functions within other squadrons or within the same squadron (for example, Aircraft Maintenance Unit Superintendent and Command Post Superintendent). Only SNCOs will hold the duty title of Superintendent.

I always had a hard copy of this page on my desk and would use it to educate my officers.

sandsjames
01-26-2014, 12:07 PM
Too much attention/energy is spent on the duty title kabuki dance (a direct result of too much officer influence on the enlisted evaluation system).
AFI 36-2618 (The Little Brown Book) specifies authorized duty titles.
7.2.7. Superintendent. Used for SNCOs in charge of group- or wing-level functions, or in a squadron when having either oversight of functions within other squadrons or within the same squadron (for example, Aircraft Maintenance Unit Superintendent and Command Post Superintendent). Only SNCOs will hold the duty title of Superintendent.

I always had a hard copy of this page on my desk and would use it to educate my officers.

When they separated the Readiness flight (in CE), the AFI clearly stated that the NCOIC of Prime BEEF would be a MSgt or above, or civilian equivalent. In our squadron, there was never anyone put in the position above rank of TSgt. Sometimes there was a SSgt in the position. I can't understand why so many Commanders/Chiefs ignore these requirements.

Chief_KO
01-26-2014, 12:17 PM
When they separated the Readiness flight (in CE), the AFI clearly stated that the NCOIC of Prime BEEF would be a MSgt or above, or civilian equivalent. In our squadron, there was never anyone put in the position above rank of TSgt. Sometimes there was a SSgt in the position. I can't understand why so many Commanders/Chiefs ignore these requirements.

I can't speak for other Chiefs, but I'm surprised it was never ID'd by HHQ or during an inspection. I'm assuming there was a SNCO in the unit with the correct AFSC to fill the position. If not, that would have been the only situation I would do it. I would also have a paper trail of requesting manning, etc. to become compliant and would have worked to make sure the person in the chair had the right training. I had to do that when we had a 1-deep AFSC NCO PCS. Due to low manning CONUS, had to back fill with a very good NCO from another AFSC. The shortage was identified in SORTS and was tagged on every manning slide going forward. We sent the NCO to attend specific training (on MAJCOM's tab), and had to work a couple of waivers for access to certain reporting systems. It took about 2 years for the unit to receive a replacement.

sandsjames
01-26-2014, 02:30 PM
I can't speak for other Chiefs, but I'm surprised it was never ID'd by HHQ or during an inspection. I'm assuming there was a SNCO in the unit with the correct AFSC to fill the position. If not, that would have been the only situation I would do it. I would also have a paper trail of requesting manning, etc. to become compliant and would have worked to make sure the person in the chair had the right training. I had to do that when we had a 1-deep AFSC NCO PCS. Due to low manning CONUS, had to back fill with a very good NCO from another AFSC. The shortage was identified in SORTS and was tagged on every manning slide going forward. We sent the NCO to attend specific training (on MAJCOM's tab), and had to work a couple of waivers for access to certain reporting systems. It took about 2 years for the unit to receive a replacement.

Well, as far as the AFSC, the position isn't designed for anything specific. It's actually designed now for anyone to sit in the chair to leave the readiness guys to do Emergency Management. But it's very specific about the rank/grade for that chair. And that AFI is repeatedly overlooked/set aside.

MisterBen
02-02-2014, 03:31 PM
That chick is "popular." Popular in that I remember her as an A1C about three years ago popping up on AFN news reports and dudes in the break room or shop saying, "Damn she's hot."

Now she's a SSgt. She had to have gotten BTZ and made Staff her first time.

You know you've been in USAFE/PACAF too long when you can start to trace the fucking careers of AFN news presenters...

You are right. I remember seeing her on AFN when I was downrange. You think she is moving up the ladder based on looks? Must be near impossible in the AF due to promotion tests. I am Army and based on our promotion system, I seen a looker make E9 in the Guard in rapid time. I thought she was latina (from afar) but she appears to be redbone.

jshiver15
02-02-2014, 04:12 PM
You are right. I remember seeing her on AFN when I was downrange. You think she is moving up the ladder based on looks? Must be near impossible in the AF due to promotion tests. I am Army and based on our promotion system, I seen a looker make E9 in the Guard in rapid time. I thought she was latina (from afar) but she appears to be redbone.

She just promoted like everyone else does in the AF. In fact, I believe she would have sewn on sooner (she sewed on a couple months ago, normally with her TIG she would have sewn on in the summer), but it appears that she tested out of cycle and sewed on immediately following the results or after ALS. Her ribbon rack indicates a deployment, so I think she probably tested at a different time because of that.

MisterBen
02-02-2014, 08:03 PM
She just promoted like everyone else does in the AF. In fact, I believe she would have sewn on sooner (she sewed on a couple months ago, normally with her TIG she would have sewn on in the summer), but it appears that she tested out of cycle and sewed on immediately following the results or after ALS. Her ribbon rack indicates a deployment, so I think she probably tested at a different time because of that.

Thanks for the insight.

BRUWIN
02-03-2014, 10:05 PM
If you have a plain jane duty title you will never get promoted. "NCOIC, Supply Management Section"....see how boring that is? You want to snazzy that up a bit with something like "Soveriegn of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of Supply Management."

See how much better that sounds? Really...if you don't try and stand out you'll never make E-8.

BOSS302
02-03-2014, 10:08 PM
If you have a plain jane duty title you will never get promoted. "NCOIC, Supply Management Section"....see how boring that is? You want to snazzy that up a bit with something like "Soveriegn of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of Supply Management."

See how much better that sounds? Really...if you don't try and stand out you'll never make E-8.

You give the worst advice ever.

BRUWIN
02-03-2014, 10:11 PM
You give the worst advice ever.

OK...don't listen to me. You only hurt yourself.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-03-2014, 10:16 PM
OK...don't listen to me. You only hurt yourself.

At least you didn't suggest Grand Wizard of the Supply Management Section.

BRUWIN
02-03-2014, 10:43 PM
At least you didn't suggest Grand Wizard of the Supply Management Section.

The board will see right through that. They might consider any duty title with "wizard" in it an insult to their intelligence, that's why people should stick to something similar to my suggestion.

sandsjames
02-03-2014, 10:48 PM
The board will see right through that. They might consider any duty title with "wizard" in it an insult to their intelligence, that's why people should stick to something similar to my suggestion.

Wizard should only be used in the bullet...not as duty title. If you need to fill in some white space then you can replace wizard with Superman.

BOSS302
02-04-2014, 08:40 AM
You are right. I remember seeing her on AFN when I was downrange. You think she is moving up the ladder based on looks? Must be near impossible in the AF due to promotion tests. I am Army and based on our promotion system, I seen a looker make E9 in the Guard in rapid time. I thought she was latina (from afar) but she appears to be redbone.

In fairness, the promotion system is blind to looks. It gets more complicated once you factor in boards, but it's fair.

The unfairness and unprofessionalism comes into play when one sees grown men who are meant to be fair and just "leaders" - your supervisors, SNCOs, Chiefs, etc - suddenly losing their shit and acting like broskis in heat around some of these younger, highly-attractive female airmen. In that regard, there can be some unfairness that could trickle into the system.

SrA Dude Bro gets a very good "4" EPR from his supervisor, SSgt Haterade. SrA Dude Bro PCSs without a medal and is not put up for annual/quarterly awards.

SrA Hot Latina gets a "firewall 5" EPR from the same SSgt Haterade. SrA Hot Latina is put up for every imaginable award the Wing and Squadron has to offer. SrA Hot Latina PCSs with an AFCM.

Is it because SSgt Haterade has a permanent hard-on for SrA Hot Latina and bends over backwards to please her with the hope that he'll get inside her panties? Perhaps; it's been done in the past.

Or maybe SrA Hot Latina is truly atop her game and truly deserving of all that comes her way, while SrA Dude Bro is plain jane average.

That's how rumors start...

wxjumper
02-04-2014, 09:38 AM
In fairness, the promotion system is blind to looks. It gets more complicated once you factor in boards, but it's fair.



Once Strats become a factor, like in SNCOs and Officers, you see that looks does help a lot of people who shouldn't be promoted get promoted.

BOSS302
02-04-2014, 10:26 AM
Once Strats become a factor, like in SNCOs and Officers, you see that looks does help a lot of people who shouldn't be promoted get promoted.

True. I cannot see SMSgt Kevin Guy, who might be a standard issue white bread bumpkin but is a fine AFSC expert and a great leader...being stratted higher than SMSgt Katie Hotness, who looks trim and tight in a blue's dress with legs that continue forever, but spends more time at bake sales and organizing golf tournaments than being at work.

Chief_KO
02-04-2014, 12:02 PM
Since I retired as a Chief that confirms what I always knew, I was a John Stamos/Brad Pitt/George Clooney looker with 2.9% bodyfat, washboard abs, 6' 2", 175 lbs, 100 on every PT test, and other highly desirable physical attributes.

One change I would make to all boards: Elimination of any personally identifiable information: name, gender, race, etc.

DWWSWWD
02-04-2014, 01:48 PM
One change I would make to all boards: Elimination of any personally identifiable information: name, gender, race, etc. To do so would require the AF admitting the possibility that boards skew their ratings in favor or against a particular group. I just don't think there is enough there to make a case for it. IF there is some of this going on, I think it's already been done by the time the board sees the package. Unfortunately, I can attest to some silliness with wing strats. Bake sales, CEO of Black History month etc.

giggawatt
02-04-2014, 02:34 PM
Since I retired as a Chief that confirms what I always knew, I was a John Stamos/Brad Pitt/George Clooney looker with 2.9% bodyfat, washboard abs, 6' 2", 175 lbs, 100 on every PT test, and other highly desirable physical attributes.

One change I would make to all boards: Elimination of any personally identifiable information: name, gender, race, etc.

2.9% BF? Is such a thing even possible?

PM me your routine and diet please. :D

sandsjames
02-04-2014, 02:52 PM
2.9% BF? Is such a thing even possible?

PM me your routine and diet please. :D

I think it's the Supermodel diet...and if any of my troops were over 4% they could not get a firewall.

BigBaze
02-16-2014, 03:42 PM
Once Strats become a factor, like in SNCOs and Officers, you see that looks does help a lot of people who shouldn't be promoted get promoted.

I can say I have been TDY at a certain base, and been inside one of said base's facilities and have seen their entire monthly awards board consist of blonde haired blue eyed females. Kind of uncanny..

Absinthe Anecdote
02-16-2014, 03:49 PM
I can say I have been TDY at a certain base, and been inside one of said base's facilities and have seen their entire monthly awards board consist of blonde haired blue eyed females. Kind of uncanny..

That kind of thing happens a lot in Austrian female military units, was this base in the Alps?

jshiver15
02-16-2014, 04:30 PM
One change I would make to all boards: Elimination of any personally identifiable information: name, gender, race, etc.

I seriously don't understand why this isn't a common standard in squadrons. Awards boards shouldn't include identifiable information if the whole purpose is to take the package for face value.

DWWSWWD
02-16-2014, 05:01 PM
I can say I have been TDY at a certain base, and been inside one of said base's facilities and have seen their entire monthly awards board consist of blonde haired blue eyed females. Kind of uncanny..
Bullshit.

BigBaze
02-16-2014, 05:21 PM
Bullshit.


Dead serious..Amn, NCO, SNCO and CGO

BigBaze
02-16-2014, 05:23 PM
That kind of thing happens a lot in Austrian female military units, was this base in the Alps?


It was in the states..not to say these weren't fine airmen, but in my time in the Air Force it seems like it is a factor when it comes to awards.

BRUWIN
02-16-2014, 06:32 PM
I can say I have been TDY at a certain base, and been inside one of said base's facilities and have seen their entire monthly awards board consist of blonde haired blue eyed females. Kind of uncanny..

Every board I was ever on always considered female hotness. It was a major discriminator since packages were just too hard to rank. As a board member, if there a major hottie competing I didn't just take the other board member's word for it that she was hot, I would personally visit the work place to make sure she was. That's when I realized that some board members will settle for anything. So is it fair? Well just keep in mind one thing, not all females competing are hotties. Some are not and they don't win even though they did great things job-wise. So it kind of works to the males advantage then and all comes up even in the end.

I hope this sheds some light on the awards board process.

BOSS302
02-16-2014, 06:50 PM
Every board I was ever on always considered female hotness. It was a major discriminator since packages were just too hard to rank. As a board member, if there a major hottie competing I didn't just take the other board member's word for it that she was hot, I would personally visit the work place to make sure she was. That's when I realized that some board members will settle for anything. So is it fair? Well just keep in mind one thing, not all females competing are hotties. Some are not and they don't win even though they did great things job-wise. So it kind of works to the males advantage then and all comes up even in the end.

I hope this sheds some light on the awards board process.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pXqaWI6r4Q

OtisRNeedleman
02-17-2014, 02:23 AM
I remember as an instructor in the SIGINT officer course at Goodfellow many years ago, we once had two attractive blonde female officer students giving the wing king his weekly intel briefing. This wing king was a good guy, and normally at the end of the briefing he'd say thanks and maybe make a suggestion or two. On this occasion after the briefing the wing king, followed by his AF subordinate commanders, went up to the ladies and thanked each personally. Heh, heh...guess they did pretty well on their brief...

fufu
02-17-2014, 03:19 AM
One change I would make to all boards: Elimination of any personally identifiable information: name, gender, race, etc.

Won't change anything...we have race specific awards now. That makes it easier for the board to determine gender and of course race.

http://article.wn.com/view/2014/02/11/CSAF_recognizes_2014_Black_Engineer_of_the_Year_US AF_United_/

In the future, I'm sure we'll have: Black NCO of the Mo, Pacific Islander NCO of the Mo, Female Black NCO of the Mo. :rollseyes:

fufu
02-17-2014, 03:21 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pXqaWI6r4Q

Uh...why is talking to a bunch of SrA and SSgt about the EES? This is the problem with the AF, change comes from the top. SMH!

Chief_KO
02-17-2014, 04:06 AM
Won't change anything...we have race specific awards now. That makes it easier for the board to determine gender and of course race.

It can be done. Black out or white out (can't be racial) name and any word that implies sex, race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation. Of course it could backfire on a few folks...3/4 of their 1206 would be blank.

On a serious note, as a TSgt I remember sitting on an Amn of the Qtr board at 7AF in Korea around 96 or so. The 1206s we scored had name and several other things blacked out.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-17-2014, 11:14 AM
Won't change anything...we have race specific awards now. That makes it easier for the board to determine gender and of course race.

http://article.wn.com/view/2014/02/11/CSAF_recognizes_2014_Black_Engineer_of_the_Year_US AF_United_/

In the future, I'm sure we'll have: Black NCO of the Mo, Pacific Islander NCO of the Mo, Female Black NCO of the Mo. :rollseyes:

Oh no! The sky is falling again!

I'll stay here and panic, and you run around in circles and scream.

Seriously, are you really worried about that?

sandsjames
02-17-2014, 11:23 AM
Oh no! The sky is falling again!

I'll stay here and panic, and you run around in circles and scream.

Seriously, are you really worried about that?

People should be. It only endorses segregation and separation. Oh, and to repeat an often stated argument, if this was the best white engineer award, Bill Maher would be losing is mind.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-17-2014, 11:45 AM
People should be. It only endorses segregation and separation. Oh, and to repeat an often stated argument, if this was the best white engineer award, Bill Maher would be losing is mind.

Here is a better link to the story than the one fufu provided.

It wasn't a service sponsored award and it is given to general officers, I think we will survive.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/473314/csaf-recognizes-2014-black-engineer-of-the-year.aspx

sandsjames
02-17-2014, 11:55 AM
Here is a better link to the story than the one fufu provided.

It wasn't a service sponsored award and it is given to general officers, I think we will survive.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/473314/csaf-recognizes-2014-black-engineer-of-the-year.aspx

Thanks for pointing out that an Engineer award goes to an officer. That's like pointing out that Commander awards can only go to officers.

Of course we'll survive. Just progressing a little slower than we should. You can't fix division if you celebrate it daily.

fufu
02-17-2014, 02:13 PM
People should be. It only endorses segregation and separation. Oh, and to repeat an often stated argument, if this was the best white engineer award, Bill Maher would be losing is mind.

^This. Why the need for a black only award? Pacific islander award? Hispanic award? Asian award? Why can't there just be one award?

TJMAC77SP
02-17-2014, 02:44 PM
Here is a better link to the story than the one fufu provided.

It wasn't a service sponsored award and it is given to general officers, I think we will survive.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/473314/csaf-recognizes-2014-black-engineer-of-the-year.aspx

Of course we will survive but given that the current CSAF is presenting the award the questions are valid and have not been answered.

The photo caption in af.mil linked article was poorly written but was taken directly from the BEYA conference and the Stars and Stripes Dinner website. The caption is a little too inclusive in its description of who is honored. The full description give the whole picture.

BEYA STEM CONFERENCE

The Stars & Stripes Event

Each year US Black Engineer & Information Technology magazine issues its scorecard of black progress in the U.S. Armed Forces. The annual Top Blacks in the Military list spotlights flag-rank officers —admirals, generals and members of the federal Senior Executive Service. These men and women have shown courage under fire, wisdom and resourcefulness, and fidelity to their nation. Although black officers make up less than six percent at the highest levels, there are more in the military’s top ranks compared to the percentage of black executives on the highest rungs of corporate America.

Stars and Stripes is one of the nation’s largest events honoring both active and retired African American admirals, generals and members of the Senior Executive Service. Each year the featured service of the Stars and Stripes event alternates between the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps and the Coast Guard and is determined on a rotating basis. The U.S. Army will be the featured service of the 2014 Stars and Stripes event.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-17-2014, 03:19 PM
Of course we will survive but given that the current CSAF is presenting the award the questions are valid and have not been answered.

The photo caption in af.mil linked article was poorly written but was taken directly from the BEYA conference and the Stars and Stripes Dinner website. The caption is a little too inclusive in its description of who is honored. The full description give the whole picture.

BEYA STEM CONFERENCE

The Stars & Stripes Event

Each year US Black Engineer & Information Technology magazine issues its scorecard of black progress in the U.S. Armed Forces. The annual Top Blacks in the Military list spotlights flag-rank officers —admirals, generals and members of the federal Senior Executive Service. These men and women have shown courage under fire, wisdom and resourcefulness, and fidelity to their nation. Although black officers make up less than six percent at the highest levels, there are more in the military’s top ranks compared to the percentage of black executives on the highest rungs of corporate America.

Stars and Stripes is one of the nation’s largest events honoring both active and retired African American admirals, generals and members of the Senior Executive Service. Each year the featured service of the Stars and Stripes event alternates between the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps and the Coast Guard and is determined on a rotating basis. The U.S. Army will be the featured service of the 2014 Stars and Stripes event.

If a private organization wants to honor someone, what is the big deal?

I don't see the fact that CSAF presenting it is a big deal either. How is that hurting any white people?

sandsjames

I pointed out that the award goes to general officers (flag-level) because their promotions work very differently.

That award isn't going to end up in some CGOs OPR as a bullet, much less an enlisted person's EPR as fufu suggested.

fufu

Are you really that petty that you are worried about different ethnic groups or races getting recognition from private organizations?

If a Samoan airman gets an award from the Pacific Islander Chamber of Commerce, how in the hell does that hurt you?

BOSS302
02-17-2014, 04:08 PM
If a private organization wants to honor someone, what is the big deal?

I don't see the fact that CSAF presenting it is a big deal either. How is that hurting any white people?

sandsjames

I pointed out that the award goes to general officers (flag-level) because their promotions work very differently.

That award isn't going to end up in some CGOs OPR as a bullet, much less an enlisted person's EPR as fufu suggested.

fufu

Are you really that petty that you are worried about different ethnic groups or races getting recognition from private organizations?

If a Samoan airman gets an award from the Pacific Islander Chamber of Commerce, how in the hell does that hurt you?

It's not "hurting" anyone. You are choosing your words very deliberately.

If a private organization wants to honor military members with private awards, fine. Keep it private. The CSAF, CMSAF, Squadron/CC, etc. can stay worlds away from it and not touch it with a 20ft. pole.

Yet when both the military member and his military leadership attend these events in their service dress uniforms, and AF.mil runs the story on their site, the line between "private" and "official" is blurred.

Would the CSAF attend an event hosted by the National Policy Institute in which they honored the White Airman of the Year?

I was poking around Google and found several organizations that are black-centric:

National Black Trial Lawyers Association
National Association of Black Accountants
National Alliance of Black School Educators
National Black Farmers
National Association of Black Military Women
Black Heritage Swimming (......)

Good luck finding similar associations for "white" people. It's funny that several "white" associations in the US - including the NPI - are listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as "hate groups." I am sure the Southern Poverty Law Center hates everyone equally who is a shade paler than beige.

For all of their talk about slavery and discrimination, and for all their talk about being "progressive" and achieving "equality," it seems as though certain someones just want to continue to be divisive.

In short...black people can have their Black Engineer of the Year Awards and their Black Comptroller of the Year Awards (presented by SomeRandomGuy in full Rastafarian regalia). Pacific-Islanders can have their Hawaiian Airman of the Year Award presented by some private org not affiliated with the DoD.

I simply don't feel AF.mil needs to cover it, I don't feel the CSAF needs to present the award, and I don't feel that any military formality should be given to an ethnic award given by a private organization.

BOSS302
02-17-2014, 04:11 PM
Uh...why is talking to a bunch of SrA and SSgt about the EES? This is the problem with the AF, change comes from the top. SMH!

I have an urge to punch the male SrA in the face.

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-17-2014, 04:35 PM
I don't think anyone should be getting an award based on the color of their skin. On base or off base. Military or not. The military's participation in these functions is a disgrace.

TJMAC77SP
02-17-2014, 04:36 PM
If a private organization wants to honor someone, what is the big deal?

I don't see the fact that CSAF presenting it is a big deal either. How is that hurting any white people?



I didn't say it was a big deal or that it 'hurts' white people.

The question of racism and prejudice is addressed constantly in this country with the overwhelming opinion that it is alive and well with much handwringing over when it will end.

My simple answers are (while citing this story)..............yes it does exist and partly when awards like this are no longer presented. Oversimplified but I figure that's our theme today.

jshiver15
02-17-2014, 06:13 PM
Your YouTube video.


Sorry, I was way busier watching this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW74_en-_p4

BOSS302
02-17-2014, 06:16 PM
Sorry, I was way busier watching this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW74_en-_p4

Eh...she's a Scranton six.

edoc118
02-17-2014, 07:15 PM
Sorry, I was way busier watching this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW74_en-_p4

Must be nice to get SOF gear to go camping....

Absinthe Anecdote
02-17-2014, 07:34 PM
It's not "hurting" anyone. You are choosing your words very deliberately.

If a private organization wants to honor military members with private awards, fine. Keep it private. The CSAF, CMSAF, Squadron/CC, etc. can stay worlds away from it and not touch it with a 20ft. pole.

Yet when both the military member and his military leadership attend these events in their service dress uniforms, and AF.mil runs the story on their site, the line between "private" and "official" is blurred.

Would the CSAF attend an event hosted by the National Policy Institute in which they honored the White Airman of the Year?

I was poking around Google and found several organizations that are black-centric:

National Black Trial Lawyers Association
National Association of Black Accountants
National Alliance of Black School Educators
National Black Farmers
National Association of Black Military Women
Black Heritage Swimming (......)

Good luck finding similar associations for "white" people. It's funny that several "white" associations in the US - including the NPI - are listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as "hate groups." I am sure the Southern Poverty Law Center hates everyone equally who is a shade paler than beige.

For all of their talk about slavery and discrimination, and for all their talk about being "progressive" and achieving "equality," it seems as though certain someones just want to continue to be divisive.

In short...black people can have their Black Engineer of the Year Awards and their Black Comptroller of the Year Awards (presented by SomeRandomGuy in full Rastafarian regalia). Pacific-Islanders can have their Hawaiian Airman of the Year Award presented by some private org not affiliated with the DoD.

I simply don't feel AF.mil needs to cover it, I don't feel the CSAF needs to present the award, and I don't feel that any military formality should be given to an ethnic award given by a private organization.

That is an outstanding post, and I can't find any flaw in your logic or the parallels you draw.

You didn't sound whiny, and you clearly examined the issue on more than one dimension.

However, a large segment of the population will suspect you of being a racist, but that isn't you fault.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-17-2014, 07:37 PM
Sorry, I was way busier watching this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW74_en-_p4

She reminds me a little of Barbra Eden (I dream of Jeanie).

BOSS302
02-17-2014, 08:21 PM
That is an outstanding post, and I can't find any flaw in your logic or the parallels you draw.

You didn't sound whiny, and you clearly examined the issue on more than one dimension.

However, a large segment of the population will suspect you of being a racist, but that isn't you fault.

I took my vitamins this morning.

BRUWIN
02-20-2014, 02:51 AM
She reminds me a little of Barbra Eden (I dream of Jeanie).

Jeanie was such a babe in that show.

BRUWIN
02-20-2014, 02:55 AM
That is an outstanding post, and I can't find any flaw in your logic or the parallels you draw.



That is because you are a big dummy.

BOSS302
02-20-2014, 09:24 AM
That is because you are a big dummy.

And you are obese and an AARP cardholder.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-20-2014, 03:46 PM
That is because you are a big dummy.

Wasn't that you who got their arm stuck in a vending machine and had to be rescued by the Fire Department?

Once they used the jaws-of-life to open the machine, and everyone started ransacking it, you insisted that all the Kit Kat Bars should be yours as compensation for the trauma.

Actually, that was pretty smart thinking on your part; I don't think I would have thought of that, much less, have the temerity to pull off a bluff on the emergency response team.

I bow to your greatness, oh mighty GS-10 and O-3 equivalent.

I heard you even managed to walk away with most of the Snickers and half of the Synder's Hard Pretzels.

You can't learn cunning and leadership like that, you have to be born with it.

Chief_KO
02-20-2014, 08:20 PM
It's not just USAF E-6s that love their candy & snacks:

It’s a familiar tableau: an overpriced vending-machine candy bar dangles on a spiral hook, tantalizingly out of reach and refusing to drop. For most of us, that mini-drama usually ends in defeat. But not for Robert McKevitt of Spirit Lake, whose victory over an uncooperative vending machine ultimately cost him his job.

McKevitt, a staff sergeant in the Iowa National Guard, was working the second shift at Polaris Industries’ warehouse in Milford, Iowa, when he decided to break for a snack last fall.
He says he deposited $1 in a vending machine, selected a 90-cent Twix bar, and then watched as the candy bar crept forward in its slot, began its descent and was abruptly snagged by a spiral hook that held it suspended in midair. “I was, like, ‘Oh, man,’ ” said McKevitt, 27. “So I put in another dollar, and then it wouldn’t do anything.”

At first, McKevitt’s frustration took the customary route: He banged the side of the machine. He tried rocking it back and forth. But when that didn’t work, McKevitt walked away and commandeered an 8,000-pound forklift, according to state unemployment compensation records. He reportedly drove up to the vending machine, lifted it 2 feet off the concrete warehouse floor — then let it drop. He allegedly repeated the maneuver at least six times, by which time three candy bars had fallen into the chute for his retrieval.

When a supervisor confronted him, McKevitt allegedly explained he was simply trying to get the snack he had paid for. He was fired five days later. In a ruling that became public last month, a state administrative law judge denied his claim for unemployment benefits, saying McKevitt had demonstrated a willful disregard for his employer’s interests. McKevitt, who served in Afghanistan in 2011 and is a member of 1st Battalion, 194th Field Artillery, didn’t testify at his Dec. 16 unemployment-benefits hearing.

But he told The Des Moines Register he never lifted and dropped the vending machine. He says after shaking the machine to retrieve the elusive Twix bar, he used his forklift to move it back in place against the wall. “That machine was trouble,” he said. “They fired me, and now I hear they have all new vending machines there.”

Absinthe Anecdote
02-20-2014, 08:29 PM
Chief_KO

I hope you edit that post before Bruwin sees it; because it sounds like you are calling him an E-6.

giggawatt
02-22-2014, 03:31 AM
It's not just USAF E-6s that love their candy & snacks:

It’s a familiar tableau: an overpriced vending-machine candy bar dangles on a spiral hook, tantalizingly out of reach and refusing to drop. For most of us, that mini-drama usually ends in defeat. But not for Robert McKevitt of Spirit Lake, whose victory over an uncooperative vending machine ultimately cost him his job.

McKevitt, a staff sergeant in the Iowa National Guard, was working the second shift at Polaris Industries’ warehouse in Milford, Iowa, when he decided to break for a snack last fall.
He says he deposited $1 in a vending machine, selected a 90-cent Twix bar, and then watched as the candy bar crept forward in its slot, began its descent and was abruptly snagged by a spiral hook that held it suspended in midair. “I was, like, ‘Oh, man,’ ” said McKevitt, 27. “So I put in another dollar, and then it wouldn’t do anything.”

At first, McKevitt’s frustration took the customary route: He banged the side of the machine. He tried rocking it back and forth. But when that didn’t work, McKevitt walked away and commandeered an 8,000-pound forklift, according to state unemployment compensation records. He reportedly drove up to the vending machine, lifted it 2 feet off the concrete warehouse floor — then let it drop. He allegedly repeated the maneuver at least six times, by which time three candy bars had fallen into the chute for his retrieval.

When a supervisor confronted him, McKevitt allegedly explained he was simply trying to get the snack he had paid for. He was fired five days later. In a ruling that became public last month, a state administrative law judge denied his claim for unemployment benefits, saying McKevitt had demonstrated a willful disregard for his employer’s interests. McKevitt, who served in Afghanistan in 2011 and is a member of 1st Battalion, 194th Field Artillery, didn’t testify at his Dec. 16 unemployment-benefits hearing.

But he told The Des Moines Register he never lifted and dropped the vending machine. He says after shaking the machine to retrieve the elusive Twix bar, he used his forklift to move it back in place against the wall. “That machine was trouble,” he said. “They fired me, and now I hear they have all new vending machines there.”

Sounds like something out of the DuffelBlog.