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BOSS302
01-13-2014, 11:59 AM
We had one of our own today. Calling it "pointless" would be doing it a service. It was essentially a MSgt reading from a PowerPoint information slide and then deflecting every question with a, "Give me your name and unit & we'll get back to you," response.

Several people came for answers and walked out just as confused as before.

When the MSgt made the comment that, "We are all in this together, as one...", the whole audience groaned. The stress amongst many was palpatable.

wxjumper
01-13-2014, 01:09 PM
Basically the same as the "Town Hall" meetings my base held the week before Christmas on Force Shaping. Not surprised nobody still has gotten their shit together. Somewhat disconcerting when you know more on the issue then those whose job it is to know it.

BOSS302
01-13-2014, 01:14 PM
Basically the same as the "Town Hall" meetings my base held the week before Christmas on Force Shaping. Not surprised nobody still has gotten their shit together. Somewhat disconcerting when you know more on the issue then those whose job it is to know it.

It goes to show that both sides in this are wrong. MPS is wrong for coming to these meetings armed with nothing useful and wasting time. Others (the crowds in the meeting) are wrong for not reading all the information that is out there and educating themselves.

Your career, your responsibility.

SomeRandomGuy
01-13-2014, 01:47 PM
It goes to show that both sides in this are wrong. MPS is wrong for coming to these meetings armed with nothing useful and wasting time. Others (the crowds in the meeting) are wrong for not reading all the information that is out there and educating themselves.

Your career, your responsibility.

Am I allowed to use this philosophy in Finance? Your money, your responsibility. If you can't figure out how to file your voucher that is your problem.


For what it's worth I feel bad for MPF in this situation. They have access to mostly the same information the customer does. People are asking them for an official interpretation which they can't give because then someone will try to hold them to it. The only answer they can give is quoting the guidance and then saying how they interpet it. With that being said I do not understand why they would hold town hall mettings when they aren't able to answer your questions. That is akin to holding a press conference and then answering no comment to every question. What is the point?

BOSS302
01-13-2014, 01:50 PM
Am I allowed to use this philosophy in Finance? Your money, your responsibility. If you can't figure out how to file your voucher that is your problem.




No. Never.

AFcynic
01-13-2014, 02:21 PM
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy;666118]Am I allowed to use this philosophy in Finance? Your money, your responsibility. If you can't figure out how to file your voucher that is your problem.


Yes, you can use that philosophy. The 6F career field lost a significant number of manning positions to myPay back in 2003, and the AFFSC has been a failure. The member is responsible for creating his/her own authorizations in DTS, and unless there is an error somewhere, CPTS has no say in the authorization or the voucher. Bottom line - it is YOUR pay, and YOU are responsible for it. You are given LES', mid month pay statements, and if you're getting over/underpaid, then the fault lies with YOU for not taking a closer look at your benefits/entitlements. The military pay system is older than dirt, and it isn't smart enough to know if you are getting over/underpaid. It's DOS based. Seriously. DOS.

Ten years ago, I knew a guy who was the debt collections POC at his base. He disapproved EVERY single debt remission waiver that came across his desk. His best one was a TSgt who was no longer recruiting, but was still getting special duty pay for over a year. She wrote a sob story about it, begging to not have to pay it back. She knew she was getting it, spent it, and didn't want to be punished financially for being an idiot. His response was classic, "Member was aware she was receiving an entitlement she was not authorized. Member lacks integrity, and basic common sense". DFAS copied and pasted that phrase on her denial letter.

BOSS302
01-13-2014, 02:58 PM
Yes, you can use that philosophy.

No, he may not. He is Finance. He might as well wear a cone of shame everywhere he walks.

SomeRandomGuy
01-13-2014, 03:16 PM
No, he may not. He is Finance. He might as well wear a cone of shame everywhere he walks.

Actually, if this retention board thing was a finance issue we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. In Finance we always give you an answer on the spot. If we don't know the right answer we just make up our own. If you have some confidence most people will believe you. How many times have you had this conversation with finance?

You: My pay is short $50
Finance: That was due to a processing glitch at DFAS
You: What type of glitch?
Finance: Some of the end of day files did not run correctly and caused pay errors
You: Oh, ok

You then walk away from this conversation thinking, "Wait a minute, that didn't even answer my question but somehow it sounded right"

BOSS302
01-13-2014, 03:39 PM
Actually, if this retention board thing was a finance issue we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. In Finance we always give you an answer on the spot. If we don't know the right answer we just make up our own. If you have some confidence most people will believe you. How many times have you had this conversation with finance?

You: My pay is short $50
Finance: That was due to a processing glitch at DFAS
You: What type of glitch?
Finance: Some of the end of day files did not run correctly and caused pay errors
You: Oh, ok

You then walk away from this conversation thinking, "Wait a minute, that didn't even answer my question but somehow it sounded right"

You left out the part where you return to playing BubbleShooter on your iPhone, purposefully delaying the waiting line in the customer service lobby. Then, before COB, you draw names from a hat to decide whose pay you are going to screw with.

jmb27
01-13-2014, 04:04 PM
You left out the part where you return to playing BubbleShooter on your iPhone, purposefully delaying the waiting line in the customer service lobby. Then, before COB, you draw names from a hat to decide whose pay you are going to screw with.

Remember, the only reason they have such a big line is because I have to take time out of my day to go down there because they refuse to answer the phone after they have screwed up my pay.

SomeRandomGuy
01-13-2014, 04:14 PM
Remember, the only reason they have such a big line is because I have to take time out of my day to go down there because they refuse to answer the phone after they have screwed up my pay.

There is actually a reason for that. Having to give up several of your people to sit by a phone in case someone calls is incredibly inefficient. Have you ever tried getting any work done while also answering a ton of phone calls? It just isn't possible. There are only two options. 1.) Make a half-ass effort and give up 2-3 people who spend all day on the phone 2.) Completely turn off the phones and use those 2 people to catch up on the work you are behind on that is causing people to call. I can guarantee you that 90% of the questions you have for finance (when will my voucher get paid) are issues they already knew about.

jmb27
01-13-2014, 04:53 PM
There is actually a reason for that. Having to give up several of your people to sit by a phone in case someone calls is incredibly inefficient. Have you ever tried getting any work done while also answering a ton of phone calls? It just isn't possible. There are only two options. 1.) Make a half-ass effort and give up 2-3 people who spend all day on the phone 2.) Completely turn off the phones and use those 2 people to catch up on the work you are behind on that is causing people to call. I can guarantee you that 90% of the questions you have for finance (when will my voucher get paid) are issues they already knew about.

It's pretty inefficient for me to drive 45 minutes to the finance office and 45 minutes back to my office when I have my own work I'm behind on just to ask a simple question or pick up a form that could have been e-mailed to me had the personnel in the finance office picked up the phone.

And yes, it does take 45 minutes each way when you are on a geographically separated installation that has none of those types of support services.

SomeRandomGuy
01-13-2014, 05:19 PM
It's pretty inefficient for me to drive 45 minutes to the finance office and 45 minutes back to my office when I have my own work I'm behind on just to ask a simple question or pick up a form that could have been e-mailed to me had the personnel in the finance office picked up the phone.

And yes, it does take 45 minutes each way when you are on a geographically separated installation that has none of those types of support services.

Which form were you needing that driving 1.5 hours round trip was the best way to get it? Normally I use Google to find my forms. I guess you prefer a regular highway as opposed to the information super highway. Either way it all comes down to what BOSS302 said. Your money, your responsibility. Good on you to take the initiative to drive to the base and handle things yourself. You seem like the kind of Airmen we need to keep in the AF. Once we cut 25K more people it will be a true fend for yourself enviroment. Good on you for showing you are capable of adapting. Hopefully these retention boards will note that if you are considered.

BOSS302
01-13-2014, 07:33 PM
Which form were you needing that driving 1.5 hours round trip was the best way to get it? Normally I use Google to find my forms. I guess you prefer a regular highway as opposed to the information super highway. Either way it all comes down to what BOSS302 said. Your money, your responsibility. Good on you to take the initiative to drive to the base and handle things yourself. You seem like the kind of Airmen we need to keep in the AF. Once we cut 25K more people it will be a true fend for yourself enviroment. Good on you for showing you are capable of adapting. Hopefully these retention boards will note that if you are considered.

Don't mind him. The Base Comptroller took away his favorite stapler. He's extra salty today.

VCO
01-13-2014, 08:40 PM
Which form were you needing that driving 1.5 hours round trip was the best way to get it? Normally I use Google to find my forms. I guess you prefer a regular highway as opposed to the information super highway. Either way it all comes down to what BOSS302 said. Your money, your responsibility. Good on you to take the initiative to drive to the base and handle things yourself. You seem like the kind of Airmen we need to keep in the AF. Once we cut 25K more people it will be a true fend for yourself enviroment. Good on you for showing you are capable of adapting. Hopefully these retention boards will note that if you are considered.
I love that customer-oriented attitude. Only in finance or MPF can folks suck ass at their job and then blame the customer. I had the CC of finance emailing me at one point blaming me because they kept screwing up my paperwork.

imnohero
01-13-2014, 10:09 PM
Have you ever tried getting any work done while also answering a ton of phone calls?

Yes, the rest of us do it ever single day. In point of fact, most of the rest of the world does it ALL THE TIME. I'm sorry that you can't perform in your assigned duties, maybe you should mention that to the retention board. :)

akruse
01-13-2014, 10:34 PM
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy;666118]Am I allowed to use this philosophy in Finance? Your money, your responsibility. If you can't figure out how to file your voucher that is your problem.


Yes, you can use that philosophy. The 6F career field lost a significant number of manning positions to myPay back in 2003, and the AFFSC has been a failure. The member is responsible for creating his/her own authorizations in DTS, and unless there is an error somewhere, CPTS has no say in the authorization or the voucher. Bottom line - it is YOUR pay, and YOU are responsible for it. You are given LES', mid month pay statements, and if you're getting over/underpaid, then the fault lies with YOU for not taking a closer look at your benefits/entitlements. The military pay system is older than dirt, and it isn't smart enough to know if you are getting over/underpaid. It's DOS based. Seriously. DOS.

Ten years ago, I knew a guy who was the debt collections POC at his base. He disapproved EVERY single debt remission waiver that came across his desk. His best one was a TSgt who was no longer recruiting, but was still getting special duty pay for over a year. She wrote a sob story about it, begging to not have to pay it back. She knew she was getting it, spent it, and didn't want to be punished financially for being an idiot. His response was classic, "Member was aware she was receiving an entitlement she was not authorized. Member lacks integrity, and basic common sense". DFAS copied and pasted that phrase on her denial letter.
DOS? You're about two decades too advanced.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/09/us-usa-pentagon-payerrors-special-report-idUSBRE96818I20130709

akruse
01-13-2014, 10:35 PM
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy;666118]Am I allowed to use this philosophy in Finance? Your money, your responsibility. If you can't figure out how to file your voucher that is your problem.


Yes, you can use that philosophy. The 6F career field lost a significant number of manning positions to myPay back in 2003, and the AFFSC has been a failure. The member is responsible for creating his/her own authorizations in DTS, and unless there is an error somewhere, CPTS has no say in the authorization or the voucher. Bottom line - it is YOUR pay, and YOU are responsible for it. You are given LES', mid month pay statements, and if you're getting over/underpaid, then the fault lies with YOU for not taking a closer look at your benefits/entitlements. The military pay system is older than dirt, and it isn't smart enough to know if you are getting over/underpaid. It's DOS based. Seriously. DOS.

Ten years ago, I knew a guy who was the debt collections POC at his base. He disapproved EVERY single debt remission waiver that came across his desk. His best one was a TSgt who was no longer recruiting, but was still getting special duty pay for over a year. She wrote a sob story about it, begging to not have to pay it back. She knew she was getting it, spent it, and didn't want to be punished financially for being an idiot. His response was classic, "Member was aware she was receiving an entitlement she was not authorized. Member lacks integrity, and basic common sense". DFAS copied and pasted that phrase on her denial letter.
DOS? You're about two decades too advanced.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/09/us-usa-pentagon-payerrors-special-report-idUSBRE96818I20130709

sandsjames
01-13-2014, 10:53 PM
Which form were you needing that driving 1.5 hours round trip was the best way to get it? Normally I use Google to find my forms. I guess you prefer a regular highway as opposed to the information super highway. Either way it all comes down to what BOSS302 said. Your money, your responsibility. Good on you to take the initiative to drive to the base and handle things yourself. You seem like the kind of Airmen we need to keep in the AF. Once we cut 25K more people it will be a true fend for yourself enviroment. Good on you for showing you are capable of adapting. Hopefully these retention boards will note that if you are considered.

Yep...your money...your responsibility. Oh, and your generator, your responsibility. When you're done doing your generator run and cleaning the room, just forward me the properly filled out form and I'll file it for you. Oh, and don't call to ask me any questions if you can't figure out any step of the start process, even though you are trained annually and there are instructions inside your generator room.

sandsjames
01-13-2014, 10:54 PM
Yes, the rest of us do it ever single day. In point of fact, most of the rest of the world does it ALL THE TIME. I'm sorry that you can't perform in your assigned duties, maybe you should mention that to the retention board. :)

Maybe true, for those who's job it is to answer phones. For the rest of the people who work outside it's a little difference. Very rarely did we leave someone at the office to answer phones. IF they happen to be there then it's no problem because they probably aren't working anyway.

VCO
01-14-2014, 08:09 AM
Yep...your money...your responsibility. Oh, and your generator, your responsibility. When you're done doing your generator run and cleaning the room, just forward me the properly filled out form and I'll file it for you. Oh, and don't call to ask me any questions if you can't figure out any step of the start process, even though you are trained annually and there are instructions inside your generator room.

Bingo! Let's apply that mentality to more of CE.


Your electricity, your responsibility (just use Google to find a guide)
Your roof leaks? Your problem.
Your runway/road/sidewalk/piece of FOD, guess what? Your responsibility.
Your turd, your problem.
Need a new facility designed? Figure it out F-tard

The absolute lack of professional knowledge and customer service is bad. It wouldn't work anywhere else in the Air Force. People would literally die.

BOSS302
01-14-2014, 08:12 AM
Bingo! Let's apply that mentality to more of CE.


Your electricity, your responsibility (just use Google to find a guide)
Your roof leaks? Your problem.
Your runway/road/sidewalk/piece of FOD, guess what? Your responsibility.
Your turd, your problem.
Need a new facility designed? Figure it out F-tard

The absolute lack of professional knowledge and customer service is bad. It wouldn't work anywhere else in the Air Force. People would literally die.

If Finance could get away with it, they would pay everyone in bags of pennies.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 11:52 AM
Bingo! Let's apply that mentality to more of CE.


Your electricity, your responsibility (just use Google to find a guide)
Your roof leaks? Your problem.
Your runway/road/sidewalk/piece of FOD, guess what? Your responsibility.
Your turd, your problem.
Need a new facility designed? Figure it out F-tard

The absolute lack of professional knowledge and customer service is bad. It wouldn't work anywhere else in the Air Force. People would literally die.

Absolutely...pisses me of every time I hear that about finance, legal, etc. If it's up to me to take care of my military finance then get rid of finance altogether and give me access directly to DFAS.

SomeRandomGuy
01-14-2014, 12:32 PM
Absolutely...pisses me of every time I hear that about finance, legal, etc. If it's up to me to take care of my military finance then get rid of finance altogether and give me access directly to DFAS.

Believe it or not (I'm sure you believe it) that is actually the "vision" of the people in charge. We have been throwing money at different systems for the better part of the last 15 years trying to get a system where you handle your own pay. Actually, they even want to combine it with Personnel so you handle both pay and Personnel. The last effort I heard about was DIHMRS (Defense Integrated Human Resources Management System). That system was supposed to do to pay what DTS did for travel. If you want to change your pay you would simply make the changes and the system would prompt you for any relevant backup documentation.

My opinion is that we should do away with Finance but first we should simplify our pay system. I can guarantee you there isn't another organization out there who has as many people in payroll as the government. A few years ago I worked for a civilian company that had a total of 6 people in travel pay for the entire company. Their travel regulations was about 6 pages long. Things were simple and as auditors we used common sense. That would probably be too much to ask of the government though.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 02:01 PM
Believe it or not (I'm sure you believe it) that is actually the "vision" of the people in charge. We have been throwing money at different systems for the better part of the last 15 years trying to get a system where you handle your own pay. Actually, they even want to combine it with Personnel so you handle both pay and Personnel. The last effort I heard about was DIHMRS (Defense Integrated Human Resources Management System). That system was supposed to do to pay what DTS did for travel. If you want to change your pay you would simply make the changes and the system would prompt you for any relevant backup documentation.

My opinion is that we should do away with Finance but first we should simplify our pay system. I can guarantee you there isn't another organization out there who has as many people in payroll as the government. A few years ago I worked for a civilian company that had a total of 6 people in travel pay for the entire company. Their travel regulations was about 6 pages long. Things were simple and as auditors we used common sense. That would probably be too much to ask of the government though.

That's awesome. Now we should train everyone how to take care of their own computers/phones/infrastructure/etc and we can get rid of mission support altogether. That will leave flightline and cops (don't need fire department because people should know how to fight their own fires). Sounds like a great AF.

SomeRandomGuy
01-14-2014, 02:22 PM
That's awesome. Now we should train everyone how to take care of their own computers/phones/infrastructure/etc and we can get rid of mission support altogether. That will leave flightline and cops (don't need fire department because people should know how to fight their own fires). Sounds like a great AF.

No one is asking people do to the complicated tasks. If you need a new monitor or mouse for your computer usually that doesn't require a help desk ticket. That is a simple thing that anyone who graduated from 6th grade should be able to handle. The difference between Finance and the other jobs that you talking about is that the changes needed are customer driven. When you get married and want to add dependant BAH finance doesn't come to you. Since you already have to accomplish the paperwork why not just complete it in the system that makes the changes?

If you want to compare it to fixing generators its more like this. My generator broke so I do a quick diagnostic of the problem. It seems the carburetor needs cleaned. I know how to change the carburetor but I am not allowed to. Only CE is allowed to change the carburetor. This means I have to take my generator to CE so they can replace the carburetor even though I could do it myself if they would allow me. Once I get there I explain I need a new carburetor. The technician goes through the entire diagnostic process I had already done and determines I do in fact need a new carburetor. He explains that they are currently 2 weeks behind on carburetors but he will get mine on the list to be fixed. Now I am without my generator for 2 weeks while waiting for CE to make a fix I could have done myself.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 02:52 PM
No one is asking people do to the complicated tasks. If you need a new monitor or mouse for your computer usually that doesn't require a help desk ticket. That is a simple thing that anyone who graduated from 6th grade should be able to handle. The difference between Finance and the other jobs that you talking about is that the changes needed are customer driven. When you get married and want to add dependant BAH finance doesn't come to you. Since you already have to accomplish the paperwork why not just complete it in the system that makes the changes?

If you want to compare it to fixing generators its more like this. My generator broke so I do a quick diagnostic of the problem. It seems the carburetor needs cleaned. I know how to change the carburetor but I am not allowed to. Only CE is allowed to change the carburetor. This means I have to take my generator to CE so they can replace the carburetor even though I could do it myself if they would allow me. Once I get there I explain I need a new carburetor. The technician goes through the entire diagnostic process I had already done and determines I do in fact need a new carburetor. He explains that they are currently 2 weeks behind on carburetors but he will get mine on the list to be fixed. Now I am without my generator for 2 weeks while waiting for CE to make a fix I could have done myself.

Our generators don't have carburetors, but that's beside the point.

The point is that when there's an issue with infrastructure, your facility manager puts in a work order. Whether or not we have the parts to fix it, we look at it immediately to determine what needs to get done.

Oh, and relating to your comment "that is a simple thing that anyone who graduated from 6th grade should be able to handle", so is an oil change. So let your base Power Pro shop know that you will handle that very, very simple task and I'm sure they'd be more than willing to drop the oil, filters, and all other related items off. Yes, they will bring them to you. Then, once you have completed it, they will follow up to make sure it was done properly. They will even take the waste oil and dispose of it. What they won't do is wait until your generator fails to actually follow up on it. Finance is perfectly happy to wait until I don't get paid, or have a problem with my pay, to try to correct a simple mistake in a system that I don't have access to.

BOSS302
01-14-2014, 03:08 PM
If you want to compare it to fixing generators its more like this. My generator broke so I do a quick diagnostic of the problem. It seems the carburetor needs cleaned. I know how to change the carburetor but I am not allowed to. Only CE is allowed to change the carburetor. This means I have to take my generator to CE so they can replace the carburetor even though I could do it myself if they would allow me. Once I get there I explain I need a new carburetor. The technician goes through the entire diagnostic process I had already done and determines I do in fact need a new carburetor. He explains that they are currently 2 weeks behind on carburetors but he will get mine on the list to be fixed. Now I am without my generator for 2 weeks while waiting for CE to make a fix I could have done myself.

Did you check the olde timey hand crank first? Maybe you just need to run on down to the Ol' General Store and get a squirt can of Standard Oil & touch the generator up. Watch out for the steam valve when you start her up again.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 03:19 PM
Did you check the olde timey hand crank first? Maybe you just need to run on down to the Ol' General Store and get a squirt can of Standard Oil & touch the generator up. Watch out for the steam valve when you start her up again.

We had a hand crank at Mildenhall until about 2009. It was a 20kw. 1974 manufacture date or something. It had normal start and everything but it also had a hand crank for the flywheel. Never tried it. Didn't want to have it kick back and break my arm.

SomeRandomGuy
01-14-2014, 03:42 PM
Our generators don't have carburetors, but that's beside the point.

The point is that when there's an issue with infrastructure, your facility manager puts in a work order. Whether or not we have the parts to fix it, we look at it immediately to determine what needs to get done.

Oh, and relating to your comment "that is a simple thing that anyone who graduated from 6th grade should be able to handle", so is an oil change. So let your base Power Pro shop know that you will handle that very, very simple task and I'm sure they'd be more than willing to drop the oil, filters, and all other related items off. Yes, they will bring them to you. Then, once you have completed it, they will follow up to make sure it was done properly. They will even take the waste oil and dispose of it. What they won't do is wait until your generator fails to actually follow up on it. Finance is perfectly happy to wait until I don't get paid, or have a problem with my pay, to try to correct a simple mistake in a system that I don't have access to.

Alright fine, I lose. Finance will be happy to handle any and all pay changes for you. We will be happy to handle the entire process. We will fill out the voucher, get copies of your reciepts, and if you want we can even go TDY with you to keep track of the dates and expenses. If you get married we can contact the court and get the certificate for you. I just looked at my last EPR from when I worked customer service. I procesed 1200 travel vouchers that year and did over 6000 military pay transactions. I am going to be a very busy guy now that I will not only be responsible for inputting those transaction but will now also need to prepare the documentation. All I need is your signature.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 04:07 PM
Alright fine, I lose. Finance will be happy to handle any and all pay changes for you. We will be happy to handle the entire process. We will fill out the voucher, get copies of your reciepts, and if you want we can even go TDY with you to keep track of the dates and expenses. If you get married we can contact the court and get the certificate for you. I just looked at my last EPR from when I worked customer service. I procesed 1200 travel vouchers that year and did over 6000 military pay transactions. I am going to be a very busy guy now that I will not only be responsible for inputting those transaction but will now also need to prepare the documentation. All I need is your signature.

Now your talking. And in return CE and Comm will take care of all your equipment, fill out all records, go TDY with you to make sure you have all the infrastructure you need, if necessary, order new equipment if necessary, maintain all equipment, and require you to do nothing related to your equipment at all. Oh, wait, we already do that, so it should be an easy adjustment.

Nobody is asking you to take care of marriage certificates, filling out vouchers, etc. All we are asking is that if we have questions you answer them. All we are asking is that you file our stuff in a timely manner once you've received it. All we are asking is that if there is a simple, minor change that needs to be made on a voucher you fix it without requiring us to fill out a new form (and don't say you're not allowed to do this because I've seen it done). All we are asking is that you don't tell us "Sorry, but that's not part of my job.

So when you "process" 1200 vouchers and take care of over 6000 military pay transactions you mean what? You review everything? Or you hit submit on the computer? The things you are bragging about is the part of the job that we COULD actually take care of ourselves. The issues you bitch about are the issues that people ACTUALLY need help with.

6000, 1200...wow. I'm estimating you work, max, 240 days a year. 8 hours a day makes that (hell, I'll go with 10 because I know you put in the extra time) means that you work 2400 hours a year for 7200 transactions. That's 3 an hour. 1 every 20 minutes. Of course this is without breaks, leave, appointments, meetings, exercises, etc. So let's bump that down to 1600 (which is very, very generous) hours a year. That's almost 4 an hour you process, one every 15 minutes, one after the other, constantly. That's assuming that processing those items actually takes more than simply clicking submit and assuming that you don't deal with any customers face to face.

I realize that everyone thinks they have a difficult job and that the customers they deal with are idiots, just don't expect the customer you are dealing with to find the things you deal with on a daily basis as simple/basic.

SomeRandomGuy
01-14-2014, 04:34 PM
Nobody is asking you to take care of marriage certificates, filling out vouchers, etc. All we are asking is that if we have questions you answer them. All we are asking is that you file our stuff in a timely manner once you've received it. All we are asking is that if there is a simple, minor change that needs to be made on a voucher you fix it without requiring us to fill out a new form (and don't say you're not allowed to do this because I've seen it done). All we are asking is that you don't tell us "Sorry, but that's not part of my job.

I deleted the rest of your quote because we totally jacked this thread and maybe it will someday come back to topic. Just wanted to clarify something. Finance is allowed to change your document if the change does not affect the payment amount. The problem is that some people interpret that differently. Let's say you file a travel voucher. In the Itinerary block you list Springfield (no state) as the location you stopped one night. As you may know every state in the U.S. has a city named Springfield. Let's say that you didn't have lodging (so I cant look at the reciept) but your per diem will still be based on this location. Should I just change the location to Springfield, Oh? What if I change it to Springfield, IL? What if later it turns out you filed this voucher fraudulently? You could use a defense that your claim was altered by Finance.

What if you fill out an AF 594 to add your spouse and the date of marriage you wrote down is different than what the marriage certficate says? Should I just change the date on my own? Even if I call you and get the correct date I still need you to change the form. The reason for this is because you are legally liable for the information listed on the form. If I make changes after you signed it the form is not valid anymore. Would you be ok with someone changing your EPR after you signed it? Even if it was just a small change?

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 04:59 PM
I deleted the rest of your quote because we totally jacked this thread and maybe it will someday come back to topic. Just wanted to clarify something. Finance is allowed to change your document if the change does not affect the payment amount. The problem is that some people interpret that differently. Let's say you file a travel voucher. In the Itinerary block you list Springfield (no state) as the location you stopped one night. As you may know every state in the U.S. has a city named Springfield. Let's say that you didn't have lodging (so I cant look at the reciept) but your per diem will still be based on this location. Should I just change the location to Springfield, Oh? What if I change it to Springfield, IL? What if later it turns out you filed this voucher fraudulently? You could use a defense that your claim was altered by Finance. How 'bout you phone me and ask what State it was? You have a copy of my orders.


What if you fill out an AF 594 to add your spouse and the date of marriage you wrote down is different than what the marriage certficate says? Should I just change the date on my own? Even if I call you and get the correct date I still need you to change the form. The reason for this is because you are legally liable for the information listed on the form. If I make changes after you signed it the form is not valid anymore. Would you be ok with someone changing your EPR after you signed it? Even if it was just a small change?

What if a frog had wings? Would he still bump his ass when he hopped? You don't change it on your own. You call the guy and ask him to clarify. It doesn't require an entire new form. Hell, I've done vouchers back and forth through email before when I found a finance person willing to work with me and realizing that it was pointless for me to drive 4 hours to the base to turn in a new form. I emailed the original to the finance person, they found errors, printed, scanned, and emailed back. I then printed, made changes, scanned, and resubmitted. Simple. The person COULD have told me to fill out a new form, but they didn't. You know why? Because it wasn't necessary. Common sense was used.

I never had any issue with the EPR. Make changes, don't make changes, as long as the outcome is the same as what was initially intended. If there are changes that affected rating (or pay amount if relating it to finance) then I might want to be consulted. If not, if it's putting in the State or changing the type of transportation or reason for layover then make the change. Call me, find out what code I was meaning to put in, and make the change.

Of course if I had processed 1200 vouchers and 6000 pay transactions I wouldn't want it changed. You know why? Because those are EPR numbers and not actual numbers of tasks that actually required anything be done. Those numbers need to stay.

And I now realize the generator conversation was moot. The Air Force/AFIs don't authorize you to have one because you aren't mission essential so I apologize for bring that up at all.

retiredAFcivvy
01-14-2014, 05:54 PM
I think the point "some random guy" is trying to make is that he cannot arbitrarily make changes to your "legal" document. I'm sure you are aware that travel vouchers are subject to audit by the Air Force Audit Agency. I don't believe they would be concerned someone had to drive a distance to correct an error they made.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 06:13 PM
I think the point "some random guy" is trying to make is that he cannot arbitrarily make changes to your "legal" document. I'm sure you are aware that travel vouchers are subject to audit by the Air Force Audit Agency. I don't believe they would be concerned someone had to drive a distance to correct an error they made.

I'd agree that he cannot "arbitrarily" make changes. However, if he finds and error, he has my contact number on the form. Call me, ask me, and make the quick change. Done, done, and done.

SomeRandomGuy
01-14-2014, 06:18 PM
I'd agree that he cannot "arbitrarily" make changes. However, if he finds and error, he has my contact number on the form. Call me, ask me, and make the quick change. Done, done, and done.

How should I document that change? What if I make a change and later on you claim we never spoke on the phone? Who do you think will get in trouble if I make changes to your document based on a phone conversation then later you deny we ever spoke?

retiredAFcivvy
01-14-2014, 06:18 PM
Yeah, after I posted I realized that arbitrarily was a poor choice of words. I'm still of the opinion that finance is taking a risk making any pen and ink changes to your document

SomeRandomGuy
01-14-2014, 06:28 PM
One other point. How long should I be held responsible for holding your document while I try to contact you? Say I take a look at your voucher and you are missing one of the dates. There is a little known rule that finance only has like 30 days to pay your voucher before they owe you interest. The way they get around this is by not "accepting" your voucher until it is correct. If something is wrong with your voucher I cannot log it into the system while I wait for you to get back with me. Also another thing to factor in is the time spent with "problem children". We used to get about 100 vouchers per day. 95% of those documents were good to go and needed to be processed. The other 5% are the ones who want you to hold their hand through the entire process and fix everything for them. By providing "excellent cusrtomer service" to the 5% you delay processing for the people who are doing it right. After a while those 5% become extremely lazy and just turn in whatever the hell they feel like. I have actually seen someone turn in a "receipt" that was actually just a handwritten note on a napkin. Another guy faxed his voucher to our office in pieces over the course of a week. He would send a few pages at a time. One day orders, the next day maybe a receipt or two, the day after that his actual DD1351-2. When you have 100s of customers you really just don't have time to deal with people who keep making the same small mistakes and the best way for them to learn is by getting their document returned.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 07:02 PM
One other point. How long should I be held responsible for holding your document while I try to contact you? Say I take a look at your voucher and you are missing one of the dates. There is a little known rule that finance only has like 30 days to pay your voucher before they owe you interest. The way they get around this is by not "accepting" your voucher until it is correct. If something is wrong with your voucher I cannot log it into the system while I wait for you to get back with me. Also another thing to factor in is the time spent with "problem children". We used to get about 100 vouchers per day. 95% of those documents were good to go and needed to be processed. The other 5% are the ones who want you to hold their hand through the entire process and fix everything for them. By providing "excellent cusrtomer service" to the 5% you delay processing for the people who are doing it right. After a while those 5% become extremely lazy and just turn in whatever the hell they feel like. I have actually seen someone turn in a "receipt" that was actually just a handwritten note on a napkin. Another guy faxed his voucher to our office in pieces over the course of a week. He would send a few pages at a time. One day orders, the next day maybe a receipt or two, the day after that his actual DD1351-2. When you have 100s of customers you really just don't have time to deal with people who keep making the same small mistakes and the best way for them to learn is by getting their document returned.

Glad you're so worried about educating everyone on how to do your job.

SomeRandomGuy
01-14-2014, 07:19 PM
Glad you're so worried about educating everyone on how to do your job.

I guess it depends what you consider Finance job to be. Technically finance job is to audit your documents against regulations. This is similar to what the IRS does with your tax return. If you make a mistake on your tax return does the IRS just give you a call and fix it for you?

It seems like you consider finance people more like an accountant or H&R block who are supposed to give you advice and help you file your documents. That seems to be the disconnect. It is your job to claim what you are owed and it is finance job to validate that claim. I don't work customer service anymore but I am pretty sure finance is not staffed to educate you on how to file documents. The way it appears to me is that senior leaders have determined you are responsible for your own pay. They gave you the systems to file your paperwork and some of them were even modeled after TurboTax. If Finance people were supposed to be telling you how to file documents we would be adding more billets instead of do-it-yourself systems. If people don't like that they need to point their anger to the top.

BOSS302
01-14-2014, 07:56 PM
I guess it depends what you consider Finance job to be. Technically finance job is to audit your documents against regulations. This is similar to what the IRS does with your tax return. If you make a mistake on your tax return does the IRS just give you a call and fix it for you?

It seems like you consider finance people more like an accountant or H&R block who are supposed to give you advice and help you file your documents. That seems to be the disconnect. It is your job to claim what you are owed and it is finance job to validate that claim. I don't work customer service anymore but I am pretty sure finance is not staffed to educate you on how to file documents. The way it appears to me is that senior leaders have determined you are responsible for your own pay. They gave you the systems to file your paperwork and some of them were even modeled after TurboTax. If Finance people were supposed to be telling you how to file documents we would be adding more billets instead of do-it-yourself systems. If people don't like that they need to point their anger to the top.

All this time you have been arguing with a Power Pro guy (which is like arguing with a 500lb silverback gorilla), you could have been improving the Comptroller world.

Instead, you've been on here screwing around, dreaming about generators with carburetors & claiming to be an IRS agent.

Shame on you, Finance. Shame.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
01-14-2014, 08:29 PM
This has got to be some serious trolling up in here.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 10:46 PM
All this time you have been arguing with a Power Pro guy (which is like arguing with a 500lb silverback gorilla) I may have put on some weight since retirement, but the hair on my back isn't completely silver yet.