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View Full Version : Not the AF I joined....thats for sure.



fufu
01-03-2014, 03:52 PM
"Pride and Alliance is a private organization for all base members to provide
a safe, confidential and supportive setting for lesbian, gay, and bisexual
(LGB), their allies and their supporters. Pride and Alliance also provides
LGB educational resources to members in order to foster diversity,
open-mindedness, tolerance and understanding."

Email just came out here at Base X about a new private organization on base.

SgtS
01-03-2014, 05:09 PM
So what? Who cares?

Cookie Monster
01-03-2014, 05:28 PM
Yeah, the AF most of us joined required non-straight people to hide their identities and serve in violation of the first core value. Those were the good ol' days, right?

OtisRNeedleman
01-03-2014, 05:37 PM
It's never the same AF we joined, no matter when we joined. Times change, the AF changes. Whether the changes are good or bad depends a great deal upon one's individual perspective. Since this organization is a private organization, it shouldn't be a big deal to anyone except those who wish to join.

BOSS302
01-03-2014, 05:40 PM
"Pride and Alliance is a private organization for all base members to provide
a safe, confidential and supportive setting for lesbian, gay, and bisexual
(LGB), their allies and their supporters. Pride and Alliance also provides
LGB educational resources to members in order to foster diversity,
open-mindedness, tolerance and understanding."

Email just came out here at Base X about a new private organization on base.

Who did the E-mail come from?

11.1.3. The use of Government equipment and systems for other than official purposes is extremely limited. Government systems (daily bulletin boards and or electronic public folders) may be used to provide notice of unofficial off-installation fundraising campaigns and volunteer requests if approved by the Installation Commander. In no event should official email, mail, computers, copiers, BITS, etc., be used to provide notice of these type of activities.

I'm not picking on them because of their LGB origins. This is just another example of private organizations abusing government resources.

Stop using official government E-mail to advertise your unofficial private organization business.
Stop using GOVs to transport your food, grills, supplies, etc.
Stop using government facilities to hold your illegal penny raffles for that PS4 or iPad.
Stop using the duty day as your "planning committee" time.
Stop wearing your uniforms during fundraising events in an attempt to give your unofficial private organization a sense of legitimacy.

SomeRandomGuy
01-03-2014, 05:52 PM
It's never the same AF we joined, no matter when we joined. Times change, the AF changes. Whether the changes are good or bad depends a great deal upon one's individual perspective.

I met a crusty old Chief in the Navy who always said..

"The Navy isn't what it used to be....and it never was"

I find it funny how people want to cherry pick the things they hate about the new AF while ignoring the good things. They also seem to conveinetly talk about how awesome it used to be even though people back then complained just as much. If you don't believe me click on the forum search on this very forum and lookup some posts from 2006. Back then we were complaining about the very same things we are now. That was 8 years ago and the issues weren't new then. How can people say this isn't the AF they joined?

BOSS302
01-03-2014, 05:58 PM
I met a crusty old Chief in the Navy who always said..

"The Navy isn't what it used to be....and it never was"

I find it funny how people want to cherry pick the things they hate about the new AF while ignoring the good things. They also seem to conveinetly talk about how awesome it used to be even though people back then complained just as much. If you don't believe me click on the forum search on this very forum and lookup some posts from 2006. Back then we were complaining about the very same things we are now. That was 8 years ago and the issues weren't new then. How can people say this isn't the AF they joined?

The good ol' days of the US Navy...

"Keelhaul Punishment: An offender was securely bound both hand and foot and had heavy weights attached to his body. He was then lowered over the ship's side and slowly dragged along under the ship's hull. If he didn't drown -- which was rare -- barnacles usually ripped him, causing him to bleed to death." History.Navy.Mil

fufu
01-03-2014, 07:48 PM
Who did the E-mail come from?

11.1.3. The use of Government equipment and systems for other than official purposes is extremely limited. Government systems (daily bulletin boards and or electronic public folders) may be used to provide notice of unofficial off-installation fundraising campaigns and volunteer requests if approved by the Installation Commander. In no event should official email, mail, computers, copiers, BITS, etc., be used to provide notice of these type of activities.

I'm not picking on them because of their LGB origins. This is just another example of private organizations abusing government resources.

Stop using official government E-mail to advertise your unofficial private organization business.
Stop using GOVs to transport your food, grills, supplies, etc.
Stop using government facilities to hold your illegal penny raffles for that PS4 or iPad.
Stop using the duty day as your "planning committee" time.
Stop wearing your uniforms during fundraising events in an attempt to give your unofficial private organization a sense of legitimacy.

I never knew this...all these things run rampant here. I'm telling ya.

sandsjames
01-03-2014, 09:23 PM
"Pride and Alliance is a private organization for all base members to provide
a safe, confidential and supportive setting for lesbian, gay, and bisexual
(LGB), their allies and their supporters. Pride and Alliance also provides
LGB educational resources to members in order to foster diversity,
open-mindedness, tolerance and understanding."

Email just came out here at Base X about a new private organization on base.

Just another example of base functions actually moving certain groups farther apart instead of integrating everyone. We'll keep labeling everyone which will, in turn, bring more attention to groups, maintaining the separation of people who are different from each other (aren't we all?). Instead, we should just be working together as people. But the Air Force will never let that happen. If we didn't focus so much on labels, everyone might actually get along.

fufu
01-03-2014, 09:31 PM
Just another example of base functions actually moving certain groups farther apart instead of integrating everyone. We'll keep labeling everyone which will, in turn, bring more attention to groups, maintaining the separation of people who are different from each other (aren't we all?). Instead, we should just be working together as people. But the Air Force will never let that happen. If we didn't focus so much on labels, everyone might actually get along.

I agree. This organization isn't helping Airman in a professional way. I'd like to hear how this compares to the First 4, 5/6, Top 3, Chiefs Group...etc. All those are specific to the military, this on the other sounds like a personal club. I compare it to Blacks starting their own org...or whites...or pacific islanders...whatever.

Chief_KO
01-03-2014, 10:08 PM
Who did the E-mail come from?

11.1.3. The use of Government equipment and systems for other than official purposes is extremely limited. Government systems (daily bulletin boards and or electronic public folders) may be used to provide notice of unofficial off-installation fundraising campaigns and volunteer requests if approved by the Installation Commander. In no event should official email, mail, computers, copiers, BITS, etc., be used to provide notice of these type of activities.

Boss 302,
What AFI are you referencing??

LogDog
01-03-2014, 10:27 PM
"Pride and Alliance is a private organization for all base members to provide
a safe, confidential and supportive setting for lesbian, gay, and bisexual
(LGB), their allies and their supporters. Pride and Alliance also provides
LGB educational resources to members in order to foster diversity,
open-mindedness, tolerance and understanding."

Email just came out here at Base X about a new private organization on base.
Do you have a link for this? If it was in a base email how about scanning it and posting it to the forum without any information identifying yourself.

I'm thinking this is something someone made up as a joke.

BOSS302
01-03-2014, 11:03 PM
Boss 302,
What AFI are you referencing??

AFI 34-223

Chief_KO
01-04-2014, 02:20 AM
Always a comfortable feeling and confidence builder when two Air Force-level guidance publications are in direct conflict.
Here is what the comm guidance says:
AFMAN33-152 AFMAN 33-152, User Responsibilities and Guidance for Information Systems
Chapter 3
RESPONSIBLE AND EFFECTIVE USE OF INTERNET-BASED CAPABILITIES
3.1. Limited Authorized Personal Use. Government-provided hardware and software are for official use and limited authorized personal use only. Limited personal use must be of
reasonable duration and frequency that have been approved by the supervisors and do not adversely affect performance of official duties, overburden systems or reflect adversely on the Air Force or the DOD.
3.1.1. All personal use must be consistent with the requirements of DOD3.1.3. Examples of authorized limited personal use include, but are not limited to:
3.1.3.4. Sending messages on behalf of a chartered organization, (i.e., organizational Booster Club, Base Top 3, Base Company Grade Officers Association, etc.).

34-223 is dated 8 Mar 2007, last certified 4 Apr 2011.

FSS putting out policy on IT system usage makes as much sense as CS putting out policy on food services, billeting, or A&FRC operations.

Before email, word got out via a "Read & Sign" Clipboard, base news paper, base daily bulletin, and daily shop meetings...today clipboards are only found in the museum, base newspapers no longer exist, the bulletin (if there is one) is posted on SharePoint, and as for shop meetings...Well, given the backlash on Roll Calls, etc. it is evident that talking to/with Airmen is no longer the desired medium...so that leaves the dreaded email.

Is email misused, yes. But I'd rather get a message 2-3 times (1 from the org, 1 from the shirt, 1 from the chief, etc.) than not hear about it at all.

J.D.C.
01-04-2014, 03:19 AM
Notice in Boss302's reference it has a few key works in it. "Unofficial", "off base" and "fundraiser". This org is apparently an approved private org (normally done by the WG or MSG/CC) operating on the base.

Hey everyone by my kids Girl Scout cookies...is a foul
Hey everyone attend the meeting of X private org approved to operate on Base X...ok

RetC141BFCC
01-04-2014, 04:22 PM
I met a crusty old Chief in the Navy who always said..

"The Navy isn't what it used to be....and it never was"

I find it funny how people want to cherry pick the things they hate about the new AF while ignoring the good things. They also seem to conveinetly talk about how awesome it used to be even though people back then complained just as much. If you don't believe me click on the forum search on this very forum and lookup some posts from 2006. Back then we were complaining about the very same things we are now. That was 8 years ago and the issues weren't new then. How can people say this isn't the AF they joined?

It’s not the AF I first joined in 1978. We had Beer machines in the barracks in tech school (noticed I said Barracks and not dorm.) I could have a smoke without going to the middle of a field to have a smoke. Lots of manning to take care of the Airplanes. Treating Airman like Adults and not children. When I screwed up it was MY FAULT not my supervisor nor my wingman’s MY FAULT. No running to the IG because my Chief Chewed my ASS out. Airman and NCOS did not hang out together. NCO clubs on base with topless dancers in the back room on Monday nights (McGuire AFB.) If you did not want to see the dancers you did not go into the back room. I use to miss the AF after I retired but since coming to this forum and seeing the political bullshit you people have to put up with I am so glad I retired when I did. So don’t tell me the AF did not change. I remember coming to the front gate and Charleston AFB drunk off my ASS (not driving) and the SP on the gate calling his buddy to drive us all back the barracks. We use to look out for each other did not need wing man’s day or any of the bullshit you put up with now. You all have my thanks for what you do every day.

OtisRNeedleman
01-04-2014, 04:34 PM
It’s not the AF I first joined in 1978. We had Beer machines in the barracks in tech school (noticed I said Barracks and not dorm.) I could have a smoke without going to the middle of a field to have a smoke. Lots of manning to take care of the Airplanes. Treating Airman like Adults and not children. When I screwed up it was MY FAULT not my supervisor nor my wingman’s MY FAULT. No running to the IG because my Chief Chewed my ASS out. Airman and NCOS did not hang out together. NCO clubs on base with topless dancers in the back room on Monday nights (McGuire AFB.) If you did not want to see the dancers you did not go into the back room. I use to miss the AF after I retired but since coming to this forum and seeing the political bullshit you people have to put up with I am so glad I retired when I did. So don’t tell me the AF did not change. I remember coming to the front gate and Charleston AFB drunk off my ASS (not driving) and the SP on the gate calling his buddy to drive us all back the barracks. We use to look out for each other did not need wing man’s day or any of the bullshit you put up with now. You all have my thanks for what you do every day.

That's why I call the AF of that time (I enlisted in 1974) the Adult Air Force (AAF). Like you, am also glad to be retired. Today's AF is likely as effective as the AAF, but much less pleasant to be a part of. In my opinion, it's hard to have a lot of esprit d'corps when always being treated like children.

BRUWIN
01-04-2014, 05:36 PM
"Pride and Alliance is a private organization for all base members to provide
a safe, confidential and supportive setting for lesbian, gay, and bisexual
(LGB), their allies and their supporters. Pride and Alliance also provides
LGB educational resources to members in order to foster diversity,
open-mindedness, tolerance and understanding."

Email just came out here at Base X about a new private organization on base.

I was told that the Pride and Allaince President title will carry more weight for promotion than that of Top 3 President.

RetC141BFCC
01-04-2014, 07:11 PM
I was told that the Pride and Allaince President title will carry more weight for promotion than that of Top 3 President.

I really hope you are just jokeing. Wonder how many people will become BI now to make Chief

Big Blue
01-04-2014, 07:17 PM
I was told that the Pride and Allaince President title will carry more weight for promotion than that of Top 3 President.

Now that was funny...

Airborne
01-04-2014, 09:06 PM
I really hope you are just jokeing. Wonder how many people will become BI now to make Chief

Some people say that you do have to suck d*** to make it....:dance

mjt
01-04-2014, 11:12 PM
Always a comfortable feeling and confidence builder when two Air Force-level guidance publications are in direct conflict.
Here is what the comm guidance says:
AFMAN33-152 AFMAN 33-152, User Responsibilities and Guidance for Information Systems
Chapter 3
RESPONSIBLE AND EFFECTIVE USE OF INTERNET-BASED CAPABILITIES
3.1. Limited Authorized Personal Use. Government-provided hardware and software are for official use and limited authorized personal use only. Limited personal use must be of
reasonable duration and frequency that have been approved by the supervisors and do not adversely affect performance of official duties, overburden systems or reflect adversely on the Air Force or the DOD.
3.1.1. All personal use must be consistent with the requirements of DOD3.1.3. Examples of authorized limited personal use include, but are not limited to:
3.1.3.4. Sending messages on behalf of a chartered organization, (i.e., organizational Booster Club, Base Top 3, Base Company Grade Officers Association, etc.).

34-223 is dated 8 Mar 2007, last certified 4 Apr 2011.

FSS putting out policy on IT system usage makes as much sense as CS putting out policy on food services, billeting, or A&FRC operations.

Before email, word got out via a "Read & Sign" Clipboard, base news paper, base daily bulletin, and daily shop meetings...today clipboards are only found in the museum, base newspapers no longer exist, the bulletin (if there is one) is posted on SharePoint, and as for shop meetings...Well, given the backlash on Roll Calls, etc. it is evident that talking to/with Airmen is no longer the desired medium...so that leaves the dreaded email.

Is email misused, yes. But I'd rather get a message 2-3 times (1 from the org, 1 from the shirt, 1 from the chief, etc.) than not hear about it at all.

FSS is typically the oversight for the NAFI, NAFI monitor, and operations funded through the NAFI. PO's aren't considered a NAFI though they're very similar (and am assuming is why they fall under the scope of FSS....thanks for humoring me if you already know this :) ). I believe the regulation prohibiting the use of gov email for PO advertising purposes has to do with implied endorsement, and because advertisement can be pushed through the wing/installation NAFI (but typically at a cost). At least, that's what was explained to me when asking the same question.

Chief_KO
01-04-2014, 11:46 PM
FSS is typically the oversight for the NAFI, NAFI monitor, and operations funded through the NAFI. PO's aren't considered a NAFI though they're very similar (and am assuming is why they fall under the scope of FSS....thanks for humoring me if you already know this :) ). I believe the regulation prohibiting the use of gov email for PO advertising purposes has to do with implied endorsement, and because advertisement can be pushed through the wing/installation NAFI (but typically at a cost). At least, that's what was explained to me when asking the same question.

Understand and you're correct. It is very simple to get around the implied endorsement...place a disclaimer at the top and bottom of the email. If PO were to "shot gun" an email to the entire wing (with an attachment) it will actually take up less IT resources than the "workaround" of the email being regenerated and re-sent by various folks, first sergeants, etc.

Funny how the AF "shuns" POs when it comes to publicizing events, but is always has their hand out (via the Wg/CCC) to get a cut to support annual awards, 12OAY, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it too...without eating some $hit along the way.

imported_KnuckleDragger
01-05-2014, 04:39 PM
If the name "Pride & Alliance" was an organization was for White Airmen...nevermind, that wouldn't happen.

It's hard to be equal, with so many double standards

sandsjames
01-05-2014, 04:58 PM
If the name "Pride & Alliance" was an organization was for White Airmen...nevermind, that wouldn't happen.

It's hard to be equal, with so many double standards

Indeed. You can celebrate and be proud of everything unless you are straight, white, Christian, middle class, male. Other than that, show off your pride.

Airborne
01-05-2014, 06:52 PM
Indeed. You can celebrate and be proud of everything unless you are straight, white, Christian, middle class, male. Other than that, show off your pride.

Yes, straight, white, Christian, middle class males are soooooooo persecuted. Im sure your world is coming to an end because you cant have a gathering thats serves bologna sandwiches on wonder bread while reading bible verses and then comparing LES's while looking collectively under the hoods of everyone's 4x4 Ram or F-150 that they have never taken off road nor know how to engage the front differential while comparing penis sizes just to ensure everyone there is male. Topic for the meeting would be "the blacks" are taking all of our women. Also known as church....

sandsjames
01-05-2014, 07:26 PM
Yes, straight, white, Christian, middle class males are soooooooo persecuted. Im sure your world is coming to an end because you cant have a gathering thats serves bologna sandwiches on wonder bread while reading bible verses and then comparing LES's while looking collectively under the hoods of everyone's 4x4 Ram or F-150 that they have never taken off road nor know how to engage the front differential while comparing penis sizes just to ensure everyone there is male. Topic for the meeting would be "the blacks" are taking all of our women. Also known as church....

You're wrong. I can do it, I just can't send an email out about it or rent out the CAC or Club to do it.

And you're so close on all the other stuff...though I'm more of a Chevy guy.

Chief_KO
01-05-2014, 07:48 PM
Yes, straight, white, Christian, middle class males are soooooooo persecuted. Im sure your world is coming to an end because you cant have a gathering thats serves bologna sandwiches on wonder bread while reading bible verses and then comparing LES's while looking collectively under the hoods of everyone's 4x4 Ram or F-150 that they have never taken off road nor know how to engage the front differential while comparing penis sizes just to ensure everyone there is male. Topic for the meeting would be "the blacks" are taking all of our women. Also known as church....

So glad I'm upper middle class, and Wonder Bread should be capitalized.

Cookie Monster
01-05-2014, 08:54 PM
Indeed. You can celebrate and be proud of everything unless you are straight, white, Christian, middle class, male. Other than that, show off your pride.

The reason some people feel the need to express their pride for being nonwhite/gay/atheist/female/whatever is that society often tells them otherwise because they don't reside in one or more privileged social classes.

Airborne
01-05-2014, 09:01 PM
You're wrong. I can do it, I just can't send an email out about it or rent out the CAC or Club to do it.

And you're so close on all the other stuff...though I'm more of a Chevy guy.

My bad. I didnt know there was absolutely no where else one could hold a meeting.

sandsjames
01-05-2014, 09:28 PM
The reason some people feel the need to express their pride for being nonwhite/gay/atheist/female/whatever is that society often tells them otherwise because they don't reside in one or more privileged social classes.

Everyone from every race, religion, sexual preference, sex, age, etc, in the same pay grade in the military is in the exact same social "class".

sandsjames
01-05-2014, 09:29 PM
My bad. I didnt know there was absolutely no where else one could hold a meeting.


Apparently not, since that is what is advertised for all the other groups, through official email, on base.

Cookie Monster
01-06-2014, 12:12 AM
Everyone from every race, religion, sexual preference, sex, age, etc, in the same pay grade in the military is in the exact same social "class".

Now that DADT is history, this statement is at least legally accurate.

Chief_KO
01-06-2014, 12:21 AM
Everyone from every race, religion, sexual preference, sex, age, etc, in the same pay grade in the military is in the exact same social "class".

Not quite...I'm pretty sure I used to receive BAWHM (Basic Allowance for White Heterosexual Male).

sandsjames
01-06-2014, 03:17 PM
Not quite...I'm pretty sure I used to receive BAWHM (Basic Allowance for White Heterosexual Male).

Of course...I completely forgot about that...the extra "white male" money I get. I put mine in the TSP...the nice thing about it was that, being white, the government matched my deposits.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-06-2014, 07:29 PM
It’s not the AF I first joined in 1978. We had Beer machines in the barracks in tech school (noticed I said Barracks and not dorm.) I could have a smoke without going to the middle of a field to have a smoke. Lots of manning to take care of the Airplanes. Treating Airman like Adults and not children. When I screwed up it was MY FAULT not my supervisor nor my wingman’s MY FAULT. No running to the IG because my Chief Chewed my ASS out. Airman and NCOS did not hang out together. NCO clubs on base with topless dancers in the back room on Monday nights (McGuire AFB.) If you did not want to see the dancers you did not go into the back room. I use to miss the AF after I retired but since coming to this forum and seeing the political bullshit you people have to put up with I am so glad I retired when I did. So don’t tell me the AF did not change. I remember coming to the front gate and Charleston AFB drunk off my ASS (not driving) and the SP on the gate calling his buddy to drive us all back the barracks. We use to look out for each other did not need wing man’s day or any of the bullshit you put up with now. You all have my thanks for what you do every day.

I went to basic in 1983 and the beer machines had recently departed the Tech School barracks at Lackland, to be replaced by a "Phase System" that gradually gave the trainees more privileges, such as wearing civvies and the right to drink alcohol. I remember seeing strippers at the Camp Bullis NCO Club and the fabled "smoke break" being part of the culture.

Beer machines, strippers, and non-stop smoking are gone, and I think we are better off without encouraging our youngest troops to drink and smoke, or providing them the opportunity to see tits at the NCO Club.

Trust me, our young people are smart as hell and plenty capable of finding all the alcohol, tobacco, and sex they could possibly want.

What makes you think that those types of changes make us any worse of a military service?

What could be possibly wrong with encouraging restraint when it comes to alcohol and tobacco use?

What could possibly be wrong with encouraging our young troops to be good wingmen and not sexist buffoons in the workplace?

As for the SP at the gate hooking you and your buddies up with a ride back to the barracks. Why do you think it is impossible for a young SF airmen of today to do a similar thing.

If you had came through the gate back in 1978 when another cop was on shift, you could have just as easily been jacked up and hassled if an asshole cop was on duty.

The NCOs of the early 1980's told "remember when" stories just like the NCOs of today tell them.

Sure, things have changed, they always do. Why must you assume that it is for the worse?

Especially, since the only evidence you offer is beer machines, cigarettes, and tits in the NCO club.

Chief_KO
01-06-2014, 08:13 PM
Of course...I completely forgot about that...the extra "white male" money I get. I put mine in the TSP...the nice thing about it was that, being white, the government matched my deposits.

I got a 5 to 1 match...guess that's my Chief bonus!!

Absinthe Anecdote
01-06-2014, 10:34 PM
Indeed. You can celebrate and be proud of everything unless you are straight, white, Christian, middle class, male. Other than that, show off your pride.

I think if someone started a Scots-Irish heritage organization it would meet no resistance at all. As long as you did it in a way that truly celebrated the culture and heritage of the ethnic group that contributed so much to America's Southern and Appalachian subcultures. From music, to food, to even our language, that particular group has a lot to be proud of.

If it was done in the whiny-assed tone of white Christian men are being marginalized and persecuted by gays, blacks, and Hispanics, then yes, you would at the very least not be taken seriously.

Stop letting people like Sean Hannity get you all riled up, things aren't that bad.

sandsjames
01-07-2014, 01:40 AM
I think if someone started a Scots-Irish heritage organization it would meet no resistance at all. As long as you did it in a way that truly celebrated the culture and heritage of the ethnic group that contributed so much America's Southern and Appalachian subcultures. From music, to food, to even our language, that particular group has a lot to be proud of.

If it was done in the whiny-assed tone of white Christian men are being marginalized and persecuted by gays, blacks, and Hispanics, then yes, you would at the very least not be taken seriously.

Stop letting people like Sean Hannity get you all riled up, things aren't that bad.

I've watched Sean Hannity once...I don't know what channel Fox News is on. And I've never claimed to be persecuted by gays, blacks, and Hispanics. The persecution comes from the guilty feeling white people. I honestly don't think the other races give a shit either way. It's some white guy who's worried how everyone else is going to feel that is the problem.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-07-2014, 01:56 AM
I've watched Sean Hannity once...I don't know what channel Fox News is on. And I've never claimed to be persecuted by gays, blacks, and Hispanics. The persecution comes from the guilty feeling white people. I honestly don't think the other races give a shit either way. It's some white guy who's worried how everyone else is going to feel that is the problem.

Nice backpedal... Now get out there and organize a pinto beans and cornbread luncheon in your Chevy truck.

sandsjames
01-07-2014, 11:29 AM
Nice backpedal... Now get out there and organize a pinto beans and cornbread luncheon in your Chevy truck.Yeehaw!

AF Chief
01-07-2014, 03:03 PM
I came in 1984. Things have changed...I would say some for the better and some for the worse.

Retiring this year, with my last official day at work tomorrow. I said when you are no longer having fun going to work, you should retire...I am about there.

BISSBOSS
01-07-2014, 03:46 PM
I came in 1984. Things have changed...I would say some for the better and some for the worse.

Retiring this year, with my last official day at work tomorrow. I said when you are no longer having fun going to work, you should retire...I am about there.

+1 for a perfect answer!

-BB-

fufu
01-07-2014, 03:57 PM
I came in 1984. Things have changed...I would say some for the better and some for the worse.

Retiring this year, with my last official day at work tomorrow. I said when you are no longer having fun going to work, you should retire...I am about there.

I quit having fun as a SSgt 8 years ago.... 1938 days to 20!!

BENDER56
01-07-2014, 06:56 PM
I came in 1984. Things have changed...I would say some for the better and some for the worse.

Retiring this year, with my last official day at work tomorrow. I said when you are no longer having fun going to work, you should retire...I am about there.

I don't know ...

I never understood the work-fun connection. I've been construction site laborer, a carpenter, a waiter, a restaurant manager, a medic (working inpatient units, ICUs, ERs, clinic NCOIC, and IDMT), a tech training instructor and a first sergeant. Sure, there were things I enjoyed about every one of those jobs but I wouldn't describe any of them as fun. Certainly not fun, as in, "I have nothing to do today. I think I'll have some fun and go to the local hospital and see if they want me to make some beds."

To those who think work is supposed to be fun I propose this: No. Work is not supposed to be fun. Work is merely to be accomplished -- usually in the most effective and efficient way possible.

Work is an economic agreement between an individual and an employer. The employee agrees to perform certain tasks to an agreed-upon standard, and the employer provides an agreed-upon compensation to the employee for performing those tasks. As employees, we usually enter into these agreements because we want things like food, shelter, and other amenities. I guarantee no one would do the tasks required by their employer for free -- that is, for "fun."

Now, some of my jobs have provided me with more of a sense of personal fulfillment than some of the others. That made those jobs more enjoyable. Even so, if I wasn't paid to do those more-fulfilling jobs, I wouldn't do them. And regarding the less-fulfilling jobs; I still showed up every day to do them because, you know -- food, shelter and all that. In fact, now that I'm retired I don't work at all because I don't have to. I do whatever I feel like doing whenever I feel like doing it. Now that's fun. We only have a finite amount of time in this life; why would anyone want to spend any of it doing things other people want us to do?

I'll concede their might be a small minority of people for whom work is fun. Athletes, performers and those in artistic/creative fields come to mind. But even for them, I'll bet the obligation to perform makes those jobs tedious. Mark Twain famously described this in Tom Sawyer: "... he would now have comprehended that work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and that play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. And this would help him to understand why constructing artificial flowers or performing on a tread-mill, is work, whilst rolling nine-pins or climbing Mont Blanc is only amusement. There are wealthy gentlemen in England who drive four-horse passenger-coaches twenty or thirty miles on a daily line, in the summer, because the privilege costs them considerable money; but if they were offered wages for the service that would turn it into work, then they would resign."

Anyway, congrats on your retirement. Welcome to the blue-ID mafia.

BISSBOSS
01-07-2014, 08:29 PM
I don't know ...

I never understood the work-fun connection. I've been construction site laborer, a carpenter, a waiter, a restaurant manager, a medic (working inpatient units, ICUs, ERs, clinic NCOIC, and IDMT), a tech training instructor and a first sergeant. Sure, there were things I enjoyed about every one of those jobs but I wouldn't describe any of them as fun. Certainly not fun, as in, "I have nothing to do today. I think I'll have some fun and go to the local hospital and see if they want me to make some beds."

To those who think work is supposed to be fun I propose this: No. Work is not supposed to be fun. Work is merely to be accomplished -- usually in the most effective and efficient way possible.

Work is an economic agreement between an individual and an employer. The employee agrees to perform certain tasks to an agreed-upon standard, and the employer provides an agreed-upon compensation to the employee for performing those tasks. As employees, we usually enter into these agreements because we want things like food, shelter, and other amenities. I guarantee no one would do the tasks required by their employer for free -- that is, for "fun."

Now, some of my jobs have provided me with more of a sense of personal fulfillment than some of the others. That made those jobs more enjoyable. Even so, if I wasn't paid to do those more-fulfilling jobs, I wouldn't do them. And regarding the less-fulfilling jobs; I still showed up every day to do them because, you know -- food, shelter and all that. In fact, now that I'm retired I don't work at all because I don't have to. I do whatever I feel like doing whenever I feel like doing it. Now that's fun. We only have a finite amount of time in this life; why would anyone want to spend any of it doing things other people want us to do?

I'll concede their might be a small minority of people for whom work is fun. Athletes, performers and those in artistic/creative fields come to mind. But even for them, I'll bet the obligation to perform makes those jobs tedious. Mark Twain famously described this in Tom Sawyer: "... he would now have comprehended that work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and that play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. And this would help him to understand why constructing artificial flowers or performing on a tread-mill, is work, whilst rolling nine-pins or climbing Mont Blanc is only amusement. There are wealthy gentlemen in England who drive four-horse passenger-coaches twenty or thirty miles on a daily line, in the summer, because the privilege costs them considerable money; but if they were offered wages for the service that would turn it into work, then they would resign."

Anyway, congrats on your retirement. Welcome to the blue-ID mafia.

I get where you are coming from - But, I spent an entire career in the USAF and I had FUN doing it! I did a job that I LOVED and it was FUN!

I loved being a Comm-Electronics Technician, I loved working in the Nuclear Enterprise and I loved spending the VAST majority of my time overseas.

I can honestly say that I can NOT remember ever waking up and not being excited about going to work, the job I did or the mission(s) I got to be involved in.

But... That's just me.

-BB-

OtisRNeedleman
01-07-2014, 08:33 PM
I don't know ...

I never understood the work-fun connection. I've been construction site laborer, a carpenter, a waiter, a restaurant manager, a medic (working inpatient units, ICUs, ERs, clinic NCOIC, and IDMT), a tech training instructor and a first sergeant. Sure, there were things I enjoyed about every one of those jobs but I wouldn't describe any of them as fun. Certainly not fun, as in, "I have nothing to do today. I think I'll have some fun and go to the local hospital and see if they want me to make some beds."

To those who think work is supposed to be fun I propose this: No. Work is not supposed to be fun. Work is merely to be accomplished -- usually in the most effective and efficient way possible.

Work is an economic agreement between an individual and an employer. The employee agrees to perform certain tasks to an agreed-upon standard, and the employer provides an agreed-upon compensation to the employee for performing those tasks. As employees, we usually enter into these agreements because we want things like food, shelter, and other amenities. I guarantee no one would do the tasks required by their employer for free -- that is, for "fun."

Now, some of my jobs have provided me with more of a sense of personal fulfillment than some of the others. That made those jobs more enjoyable. Even so, if I wasn't paid to do those more-fulfilling jobs, I wouldn't do them. And regarding the less-fulfilling jobs; I still showed up every day to do them because, you know -- food, shelter and all that. In fact, now that I'm retired I don't work at all because I don't have to. I do whatever I feel like doing whenever I feel like doing it. Now that's fun. We only have a finite amount of time in this life; why would anyone want to spend any of it doing things other people want us to do?

I'll concede their might be a small minority of people for whom work is fun. Athletes, performers and those in artistic/creative fields come to mind. But even for them, I'll bet the obligation to perform makes those jobs tedious. Mark Twain famously described this in Tom Sawyer: "... he would now have comprehended that work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and that play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. And this would help him to understand why constructing artificial flowers or performing on a tread-mill, is work, whilst rolling nine-pins or climbing Mont Blanc is only amusement. There are wealthy gentlemen in England who drive four-horse passenger-coaches twenty or thirty miles on a daily line, in the summer, because the privilege costs them considerable money; but if they were offered wages for the service that would turn it into work, then they would resign."

Anyway, congrats on your retirement. Welcome to the blue-ID mafia.

One of the best posts on this board, ever, or in the future.

My sentiments exactly. If I had been single when retiring from the AF fifteen (whoa!) years ago wouldn't have even bothered looking for a job. Pension and VA disability would have been enough to live on, and have never been one to live overly high on the hog. Since retiring from the AF have done a number of different things, interspersed with bouts of unemployment. Only had one job (at Microsoft) I liked as much as most of the things I did in the service. From my experience, most civilian jobs are rather mundane. These jobs may need to be done, just not by me unless I absolutely must. Life's too short to do work you hate. I live for the day when I can retire for good, either if my numbers come up or I hit 62 in about three years and start collecting Social Security. Just too many neat things to do in life besides work. And if you don't need to work, don't. You won't be missed in the workforce and that job can go to someone who desperately needs it, instead. Remember, nobody, except maybe one major-league prick I once worked for at Goodfellow as a butter-bar thirty years ago, will ever go to their graves wishing they'd spent more time at work.

Otis

AF Chief
01-07-2014, 08:39 PM
I think my "when you stop having fun its time to retire" comment is being taken the wrong way. Maybe I should rephrase. Fun=wanting to come to work for me. To me coming to work was getting to be the same thing over and over and over again. I am ready for a change is what I probably meant to say. 30 years is a long time and I think I am just ready for a new chapter in my life. I wouldn't change the last 30 years for anything.

fufu
01-07-2014, 09:10 PM
I get where you are coming from - But, I spent an entire career in the USAF and I had FUN doing it! I did a job that I LOVED and it was FUN!

I loved being a Comm-Electronics Technician, I loved working in the Nuclear Enterprise and I loved spending the VAST majority of my time overseas.

I can honestly say that I can NOT remember ever waking up and not being excited about going to work, the job I did or the mission(s) I got to be involved in.

But... That's just me.

-BB-

I envy you...I mean that. It takes everything I have to roll out of bed each morning and come into work. It feels like a prison sentence with nightly liberty. LOL.

I've told my wife that I've forgotten what its like to want to get up and go to work. Most days I dread coming in.... I really want to find something that is enjoyable and "fun" to do with the rest of my life. Just waiting for retirement to move on.

Mcjohn1118
01-07-2014, 11:06 PM
I retire, well officially in September, but will be done in May. We've had some time off here at Wright-Patt recently due to the weather and it was very difficult getting up this morning to come into work. Not because the work is difficult, but because, well it's hard to explain. But like others I've talked to, "You know when it's time to hang it up." And after 21 years, I know. And like AF Chief, I want a different chapter in my life. It's exciting, yet terrifying all in one thought. As for the original thread idea...the OP is right, it's not the same AF when I joined, but change is good. Well, some change. I've enjoyed my career, and I think I've made a positive impact, to some Airmen anyway.

sandsjames
01-07-2014, 11:07 PM
I don't know ...

I never understood the work-fun connection. I've been construction site laborer, a carpenter, a waiter, a restaurant manager, a medic (working inpatient units, ICUs, ERs, clinic NCOIC, and IDMT), a tech training instructor and a first sergeant. Sure, there were things I enjoyed about every one of those jobs but I wouldn't describe any of them as fun. Certainly not fun, as in, "I have nothing to do today. I think I'll have some fun and go to the local hospital and see if they want me to make some beds."

To those who think work is supposed to be fun I propose this: No. Work is not supposed to be fun. Work is merely to be accomplished -- usually in the most effective and efficient way possible.

Work is an economic agreement between an individual and an employer. The employee agrees to perform certain tasks to an agreed-upon standard, and the employer provides an agreed-upon compensation to the employee for performing those tasks. As employees, we usually enter into these agreements because we want things like food, shelter, and other amenities. I guarantee no one would do the tasks required by their employer for free -- that is, for "fun."

Now, some of my jobs have provided me with more of a sense of personal fulfillment than some of the others. That made those jobs more enjoyable. Even so, if I wasn't paid to do those more-fulfilling jobs, I wouldn't do them. And regarding the less-fulfilling jobs; I still showed up every day to do them because, you know -- food, shelter and all that. In fact, now that I'm retired I don't work at all because I don't have to. I do whatever I feel like doing whenever I feel like doing it. Now that's fun. We only have a finite amount of time in this life; why would anyone want to spend any of it doing things other people want us to do?

I'll concede their might be a small minority of people for whom work is fun. Athletes, performers and those in artistic/creative fields come to mind. But even for them, I'll bet the obligation to perform makes those jobs tedious. Mark Twain famously described this in Tom Sawyer: "... he would now have comprehended that work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and that play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. And this would help him to understand why constructing artificial flowers or performing on a tread-mill, is work, whilst rolling nine-pins or climbing Mont Blanc is only amusement. There are wealthy gentlemen in England who drive four-horse passenger-coaches twenty or thirty miles on a daily line, in the summer, because the privilege costs them considerable money; but if they were offered wages for the service that would turn it into work, then they would resign."

Anyway, congrats on your retirement. Welcome to the blue-ID mafia.

Agree...fun is not a word I'd associate with it.

sandsjames
01-07-2014, 11:08 PM
I came in 1984. Things have changed...I would say some for the better and some for the worse.

Retiring this year, with my last official day at work tomorrow. I said when you are no longer having fun going to work, you should retire...I am about there.

I don't know Chief...sounds to me like the reason you are retiring is because you're at 30 years (haven't forgotten my 2nd grad math class).

Chief_KO
01-08-2014, 02:03 AM
Can't say I "loved" all my duties, co-workers, supervisors, commanders, or assignments. In fact I can name my three least favorite (aka crappy) assignments, two bone-headed/ignorant/non-listening commanders, two uninspiring/rudderless supervisors, and six weird/scary/stanky co-workers. But since that is spread over 30 years, I had a lot more good days than bad. I got to see things and do things that I would have never thought of.
My last 4 years were difficult...getting tired of trying to un-screw things in my squadrons and bases while my body was breaking down. Most of my time was spent rehabbing two arthritic knees (synvisc anyone?) and two torn rotator cuffs/torn biceps. It was a struggle getting up, putting on the uniform, and putting on a good face. BUT, as soon I got to work and saw the first Airmen in my squadron I got the energy to go on.

OtisRNeedleman
01-08-2014, 05:11 AM
Can't say I "loved" all my duties, co-workers, supervisors, commanders, or assignments. In fact I can name my three least favorite (aka crappy) assignments, two bone-headed/ignorant/non-listening commanders, two uninspiring/rudderless supervisors, and six weird/scary/stanky co-workers. But since that is spread over 30 years, I had a lot more good days than bad. I got to see things and do things that I would have never thought of.
My last 4 years were difficult...getting tired of trying to un-screw things in my squadrons and bases while my body was breaking down. Most of my time was spent rehabbing two arthritic knees (synvisc anyone?) and two torn rotator cuffs/torn biceps. It was a struggle getting up, putting on the uniform, and putting on a good face. BUT, as soon I got to work and saw the first Airmen in my squadron I got the energy to go on.

My wife used Synvisc on her bad knee. Of limited usefulness. Her knee was replaced in September 2013. Recovery's been quick - couple weeks on the walker, two more with the cane. Tricare Prime covered it. If you haven't already done so, and have Tricare Prime highly recommend seeing about knee replacements. Between the arthritis and aging your knees sound like very good candidates for replacement.

Chief_KO
01-08-2014, 12:17 PM
Thanks Otis. Yep first set of three injections had great results. Six months pain free, running on treadmill, walking without pain. Second time, no such result. Docs had told me that it would only be a matter of time before replacement. After we PCSd my shoulders were so bad I couldn't drive home with arms on top of the steering wheel. I just thought I had overdone the PCS/house set-up. Ended up having both shoulder operated on back-to-back. Both had torn rotator cuffs (2nd time for the left) and torn biceps. Biceps were so badly torn/frayed that the surgeon couldn't repair so now I have limited upper body strength. In fact I thought I had re-injured my right shoulder a few months ago after a very busy summer of home improvement (flood recovery). Ended up just being extreme inflammation/Bursitis that was resolved with cortisone injection and some therapy.
While I was never a "PT guy", I maxed my push ups every time. When ever I did pull downs or flys (on machine) my shoulders would "click". I never had pain and just figured that was normal. My surgeon said that was my bicep slipping in and out of its groove, tearing a little each time.

So, note to you youngsters out there...if it hurts, makes sounds see your Doctor. Yes MOTRIN can work if it's just inflammation, and will always be the first step. But if it doesn't or it comes back, see your Doctor and get that x-ray, MRI & ortho consult. AF only lasts 4 to 30 years...it's best to have a healthy body to retire in and enjoy what life offers you.

imported_WILDJOKER5
01-08-2014, 12:55 PM
So, there is a private organization to accomadate something like less than 3% of the base population? Should be standing room only if every LBG person shows up I guess.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-08-2014, 01:32 PM
On the "fun -vs- work" aspect of the Air Force:

For some of us who joined the Air Force at 18 years of age and stayed 20 plus years, the Air Force can take on a whole lot of different meanings. I grew up in the Air Force, it was my college experience, my first look at the world beyond my hometown, my first exposure to new cultures, and my job, all rolled into one.

There were times when I truly enjoyed going in for duty, just to see what had happened while I was at home. There were times when I felt the job would suffocate and crush me.

I met so many types of people over the years of both the good and bad varieties and I wouldn't trade a minute of the time I spent in the Air Force.

Sometimes I would get frustrated with contending with the phony "ladder climbers" but the group of people that bugged me the most were the chronic complainers.

Some people never see the bright side of anything and their default setting is negative. Once I learned to filter out the shallow and often dishonest rumblings of people who chant, "this isn't the real Air Force" or "this isn't the Air Force I joined" I was a hell of a lot happier.

To quote Billy Joel, "The good old days weren't always good and tomorrow is not as bad as it seems."

sandsjames
01-08-2014, 01:44 PM
I'm assuming that all of you who say it's fun will volunteer your time to do it for free once you retire/separate? If not, must not have been that fun.

Were there fun times? Yes. Were there fun people? Yes. But the job fun? Not a chance.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-08-2014, 02:03 PM
I'm assuming that all of you who say it's fun will volunteer your time to do it for free once you retire/separate? If not, must not have been that fun.

Were there fun times? Yes. Were there fun people? Yes. But the job fun? Not a chance.

Bitterly complain much?

I think so.

AF Chief
01-08-2014, 02:19 PM
I don't know Chief...sounds to me like the reason you are retiring is because you're at 30 years (haven't forgotten my 2nd grad math class).

Very True...just coincides with ready to get out. Regardless, I think that even if I was not at high year tenure, I would probably be retiring nonetheless.

sandsjames
01-08-2014, 02:23 PM
Bitterly complain much?

I think so.

So you'd do it for free? Or on your day off? Simply because it's fun? I think not. Not complaining, just fact.

And I'd love to know which part of my post was a complaint.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-08-2014, 02:31 PM
So you'd do it for free? Or on your day off? Simply because it's fun? I think not. Not complaining, just fact.

And I'd love to know which part of my post was a complaint.

Dude, I've read enough of your posts to conclude that you are a negative ion.

Besides, your litmus test on volunteering to do the job for free, post retirement, is preposterous.

I worked out on the flight line guarding planes or was in a SCIF doing intelligence jobs. How the hell would, I or anyone else volunteer to show up at a squadron and start working for free?

sandsjames
01-08-2014, 02:37 PM
Dude, I've read enough of your posts to conclude that you are a negative ion.

Besides, your litmus test on volunteering to do the job for free, post retirement, is preposterous.

I worked out on the flight line guarding planes or was in a SCIF doing intelligence jobs. How the hell would, I or anyone else volunteer to show up at a squadron and start working for free?

If it was fun people would. I play golf for free...fish for free...do wood work for free, etc. As a matter of fact, I pay to do those things. That's fun. There are fun times at work, but work in the Air Force is not fun.

And what is your fascination with me and my posts? Is it because it's tough for you to not be the smartest guy in the room?

BENDER56
01-08-2014, 02:45 PM
I think my "when you stop having fun its time to retire" comment is being taken the wrong way. Maybe I should rephrase. Fun=wanting to come to work for me. To me coming to work was getting to be the same thing over and over and over again. I am ready for a change is what I probably meant to say. 30 years is a long time and I think I am just ready for a new chapter in my life. I wouldn't change the last 30 years for anything.

Yeah, I kinda went off on a tangent there, didn't I?

I knew what you meant, but something in your comment got me thinking of the way many people seem, to me anyway, to completely misunderstand the concept of work and next thing I know I'm in the middle of an essay.

I wouldn't trade my 26 years in the AF for anything, either. Although I suspect if we were all totally honest with ourselves we'd realize that most of our wonderful experiences in the service were peripheral to our actual jobs -- that is, it's the people we met, the places we went, etc., that we remember and not what we did as part of our jobs.

That said, I'll admit it was pretty awesome to be part of a team that, for instance, saved people's frickin' lives. And when I say that, I mean it literally -- not like in the EPR-bullet sense where my Top-3 attendance resulted in 69 lives saved. I'm talking about people in the ER and ICU or, once even, in the commissary who would have died if not for our interventions. If someone today asked me to do that without getting paid, I might have to think about it.

So yeah, I might have overgeneralized a bit, but I stand by my overarching philosophy that, for nearly all of us, our work is merely what we do to survive and it doesn't define us. We should look for meaning and fulfillment in our lives -- our "fun" -- in the things we do during our real lives outside of work. At work we just need to do our work.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-08-2014, 02:50 PM
If it was fun people would. I play golf for free...fish for free...do wood work for free, etc. As a matter of fact, I pay to do those things. That's fun. There are fun times at work, but work in the Air Force is not fun.

And what is your fascination with me and my posts? Is it because it's tough for you to not be the smartest guy in the room?

Just because you didn't enjoy your time in the Air Force, doesn't mean others did not have "fun" doing their jobs.

From the sound of it, you stayed 20 years and made yourself miserable. You also very likely complained about it and trashed every aspect of Air Force life the entire time you were in.

Yes, I am fascinated by your posts, because rarely do I see one that is positive. Your posts sound as if they were written by a complainer, a grumbler, a spreader discontent, and possibly a grinch.

sandsjames
01-08-2014, 03:31 PM
Just because you didn't enjoy your time in the Air Force, doesn't mean others did not have "fun" doing their jobs.

From the sound of it, you stayed 20 years and made yourself miserable. You also very likely complained about it and trashed every aspect of Air Force life the entire time you were in.

Yes, I am fascinated by your posts, because rarely do I see one that is positive. Your posts sound as if they were written by a complainer, a grumbler, a spreader discontent, and possibly a grinch.

I enjoyed my time in the military very much. The places I went, the people I met, etc. Not one day of work was fun, though.

Some people like to bullshit about how every aspect of the Air Force is perfect and there's nothing better out there. I'm not one of those. The truth is not always rosy, as much as SNCOs/officers would like to make their troops think.

I'm glad you look forward to my posts. I, however, don't look forward to yours. You never have a response that has any relevance to the thread. Your response is always complaining about me complaining. Maybe you should attempt to contribute something useful. If the truth I speak disappoints you, you can easily block my posts.

OtisRNeedleman
01-08-2014, 07:52 PM
Thanks Otis. Yep first set of three injections had great results. Six months pain free, running on treadmill, walking without pain. Second time, no such result. Docs had told me that it would only be a matter of time before replacement. After we PCSd my shoulders were so bad I couldn't drive home with arms on top of the steering wheel. I just thought I had overdone the PCS/house set-up. Ended up having both shoulder operated on back-to-back. Both had torn rotator cuffs (2nd time for the left) and torn biceps. Biceps were so badly torn/frayed that the surgeon couldn't repair so now I have limited upper body strength. In fact I thought I had re-injured my right shoulder a few months ago after a very busy summer of home improvement (flood recovery). Ended up just being extreme inflammation/Bursitis that was resolved with cortisone injection and some therapy.
While I was never a "PT guy", I maxed my push ups every time. When ever I did pull downs or flys (on machine) my shoulders would "click". I never had pain and just figured that was normal. My surgeon said that was my bicep slipping in and out of its groove, tearing a little each time.

So, note to you youngsters out there...if it hurts, makes sounds see your Doctor. Yes MOTRIN can work if it's just inflammation, and will always be the first step. But if it doesn't or it comes back, see your Doctor and get that x-ray, MRI & ortho consult. AF only lasts 4 to 30 years...it's best to have a healthy body to retire in and enjoy what life offers you.

Glad to be of service. I trust you noted all these conditions when filing for disability after retiring. My advice would be to use the Tricare for the knee replacements and stay away from the VA system. Knee replacement is a pretty straightforward operation, done by the hundreds daily all over the country. The key to good recovery from knee replacement surgery, like just about any major surgery, is doing a good rehab. In the case of a knee replacement rehab starts the day after the surgery. After the hospital, you may have physical therapy at home for a few weeks, then a couple of months of outpatient physical therapy downtown. With Tricare the out-of-pocket is low. We paid $51 for the three days in the hospital ($33 for the hospital, $18 cost-share for the walker). Home health care required no co-payment. For 20 outpatient physical therapy sessions we paid $12 copay per session. About $60 or so in prescription copays - one scrip had a $44 copay. So I'd say go for it. Ask the orthopedic surgeon if it's smarter to do one at a time or both at once.

Chief_KO
01-08-2014, 08:40 PM
Otis,
Yep all is in my records and my VA disability. Currently got 0% for the knees, but my total was 80% so no complaints. I know when I get surgery I'll be 100% during the recovery time.
Got a great orthopaedic hospital here, so when time comes for my knees that is where I'm going vice the VA. I figure this year I'll start the process with spring 2015 my target (if the doc thinks it's the right time).
Feeling fairly good now, but since I quit jogging and long walks I really don't put any additional stress on them. But there are some days where the stairs are painful and it sounds like I'm walking on potato chips.
Thanks for the advice,
KO

MACHINE666
01-08-2014, 08:46 PM
"Pride and Alliance is a private organization for all base members to provide
a safe, confidential and supportive setting for lesbian, gay, and bisexual
(LGB), their allies and their supporters. Pride and Alliance also provides
LGB educational resources to members in order to foster diversity,
open-mindedness, tolerance and understanding."

Email just came out here at Base X about a new private organization on base.

So what? We've all been taking it up the @$$ from Uncle Scam for years!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

BENDER56
01-08-2014, 08:49 PM
So what? We've all been taking it up the @$$ from Uncle Scam for years!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Dude! Where the hell you been?

MACHINE666
01-08-2014, 08:50 PM
Dude! Where the hell you been?

Living life. Getting laid. Filing H.R. complaints against angry racist black females I work with. The usual.

Old Fart IV
01-09-2014, 05:43 AM
BISSBOSS: I get where you are coming from - But, I spent an entire career in the USAF and I had FUN doing it! I did a job that I LOVED and it was FUN!

I loved being a Comm-Electronics Technician, I loved working in the Nuclear Enterprise and I loved spending the VAST majority of my time overseas.

I can honestly say that I can NOT remember ever waking up and not being excited about going to work, the job I did or the mission(s) I got to be involved in.

But... That's just me.

-BB-


BB - My sentiments too!

Reading your post brought back memories of the many assignments spent in USAFE doing 304xx "war-time" duties at various locations. It seemed like every workday was spent on the primary mission and this brought personal satisfaction to myself and to most people I worked with.

Others may not understand how COMM contributed to the cold war effort, but that is because they were not aware of the importance of the systems we worked on: Safe-Nest, BISS, ECCCS, MUNSS/Cemetery Net, ABNCC/SilkPurse, Tuslog, 486-L, ACE-High, and other C3-I systems.

JR

RetC141BFCC
01-09-2014, 06:50 PM
I went to basic in 1983 and the beer machines had recently departed the Tech School barracks at Lackland, to be replaced by a "Phase System" that gradually gave the trainees more privileges, such as wearing civvies and the right to drink alcohol. I remember seeing strippers at the Camp Bullis NCO Club and the fabled "smoke break" being part of the culture.

Beer machines, strippers, and non-stop smoking are gone, and I think we are better off without encouraging our youngest troops to drink and smoke, or providing them the opportunity to see tits at the NCO Club.

Trust me, our young people are smart as hell and plenty capable of finding all the alcohol, tobacco, and sex they could possibly want.

What makes you think that those types of changes make us any worse of a military service?

What could be possibly wrong with encouraging restraint when it comes to alcohol and tobacco use?

What could possibly be wrong with encouraging our young troops to be good wingmen and not sexist buffoons in the workplace?

As for the SP at the gate hooking you and your buddies up with a ride back to the barracks. Why do you think it is impossible for a young SF airmen of today to do a similar thing.

If you had came through the gate back in 1978 when another cop was on shift, you could have just as easily been jacked up and hassled if an asshole cop was on duty.

The NCOs of the early 1980's told "remember when" stories just like the NCOs of today tell them.

Sure, things have changed, they always do. Why must you assume that it is for the worse?

Especially, since the only evidence you offer is beer machines, cigarettes, and tits in the NCO club.

“Beer machines, strippers, and non-stop smoking are gone, and I think we are better off without encouraging our youngest troops to drink and smoke, or providing them the opportunity to see tits at the NCO Club.”
I see you picked only a few things that I said like tits beer and smoking. Well I was 17 years old when I came in the AF what else you think I was looking for. If you ask the average 18 year old male recruit if he like a smoke tits and beer I know at least 90 percent would go for 2 out of 3 of these. You are trying to put your morals on others that what I can stand. You don’t want to look at the tits at the back of the club do not go. Why must my right to look at tits be taken away because it offends somebody.

You also forgot about the parts where when I screwed up it was my fault not my supervisor not my commanders 1st Sgt or Chiefs my fault. When NCO were NCO the top 3 when I came in were mostly Vietnam Vets who handled their own troops. I remember my Chief kicked Ass himself. He once told me the only time he sent somebody to see the 1st Sgt was for paperwork. I had the pleasure of working for outstanding NCOS and Senior NCOs I am sorry if you were never taught to be a old School NCO. I was

BISSBOSS
01-10-2014, 02:37 PM
BISSBOSS: I get where you are coming from - But, I spent an entire career in the USAF and I had FUN doing it! I did a job that I LOVED and it was FUN!

I loved being a Comm-Electronics Technician, I loved working in the Nuclear Enterprise and I loved spending the VAST majority of my time overseas.

I can honestly say that I can NOT remember ever waking up and not being excited about going to work, the job I did or the mission(s) I got to be involved in.

But... That's just me.

-BB-


BB - My sentiments too!

Reading your post brought back memories of the many assignments spent in USAFE doing 304xx "war-time" duties at various locations. It seemed like every workday was spent on the primary mission and this brought personal satisfaction to myself and to most people I worked with.

Others may not understand how COMM contributed to the cold war effort, but that is because they were not aware of the importance of the systems we worked on: Safe-Nest, BISS, ECCCS, MUNSS/Cemetery Net, ABNCC/SilkPurse, Tuslog, 486-L, ACE-High, and other C3-I systems.

JR


Not to mention Hammer-Ace, Hammer-Rick, the DEB and the FAN-E!

The Cold War was an immense source of satisfaction (from a Comm standpoint)! I actually DID have FUN! The BISS mission was the best time I've ever had in my working career!

-BB-

socal1200r
01-13-2014, 01:57 PM
Yup, all this politically-correct nonsense being forced on us by those testicular-challenged clowns at the Puzzle Palace gives me great pause about today's AF. Heck, even the interim SECAF was openly gay, which is a disgrace. I always told myself I'd stay in as long as I enjoyed it, but it's WAY past that now. I'm embarassed to wear this uniform, knowing how DoD has completely caved in to the likes of the LGBT mafia, bean counters, tree-hugging liberals, etc.

BOSS302
01-13-2014, 03:06 PM
Yup, all this politically-correct nonsense being forced on us by those testicular-challenged clowns at the Puzzle Palace gives me great pause about today's AF. Heck, even the interim SECAF was openly gay, which is a disgrace. I always told myself I'd stay in as long as I enjoyed it, but it's WAY past that now. I'm embarassed to wear this uniform, knowing how DoD has completely caved in to the likes of the LGBT mafia, bean counters, tree-hugging liberals, etc.

Do away with any/all "Insert Ethnic Group/Sexual Orientation" Appreciation Months/Committees. Once the Air Force is trimmed down after these retention boards to sinew & bone, there is no excuse for letting TSgt Shoqueesha, SSgt Nathan, and/or SrA Nalalalalbaadhi spend several duty days "planning/organizing" any of these luncheons/parties/breakfasts.

BOSS302
01-13-2014, 03:08 PM
[I][FONT=Book Antiqua]Others may not understand how COMM contributed to the cold war effort, but that is because they were not aware of the importance of the systems we worked on: Safe-Nest, BISS, ECCCS, MUNSS/Cemetery Net, ABNCC/SilkPurse, Tuslog, 486-L, ACE-High, and other C3-I systems.

JR

That's sooooo fabuleth!

Comm weenies.

sandsjames
01-13-2014, 04:22 PM
That's sooooo fabuleth!

Comm weenies.

Damn...you're in a mood to take some shots at other career fields lately, huh? I like it.

DWWSWWD
01-13-2014, 10:10 PM
[QUOTE=RetC141BFCC;665791 If you ask the average 18 year old male recruit if he like a smoke tits and beer I know at least 90 percent would go for 2 out of 3 of these. [/QUOTE]

A1C DW - all three please
Chief DW - I'll take two

sandsjames
01-13-2014, 11:04 PM
A1C DW - all three please
Chief DW - I'll take two

Guessing that would be the smoking you'd turn down. Bad example for the troops. Anyone who smokes should not be able to get a firewall 5 on their EPR.

I only say that because we had a guy at my last base (E7 type) who wouldn't give a firewall for anything under a 90 PT score, yet he was at the smoke pit puffing away several times a day. Found it quite hypocritical but what can you do?

Old Fart IV
01-14-2014, 03:00 AM
That's sooooo fabuleth!

Comm weenies.

I'm glad you think the project name was "fabuleth": :poke: making fun of SAC trained killers?

It was the Euro version of Looking Glass crewed by SAC personnel (and others), with Comm supporting their mission.

JR

BOSS302
01-14-2014, 08:03 AM
I'm glad you think the project name was "fabuleth": :poke: making fun of SAC trained killers?

It was the Euro version of Looking Glass crewed by SAC personnel (and others), with Comm supporting their mission.

JR

The only thing you guys killed were kegs. The Air Force truly took a turn for the better when Gen. McPeak came in & started putting boots firmly in asses.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 11:55 AM
The only thing you guys killed were kegs. The Air Force truly took a turn for the better when Gen. McPeak came in & started putting boots firmly in asses.

Glad to see Bruwin has someone to follow in his footsteps.

DWWSWWD
01-14-2014, 01:19 PM
I only say that because we had a guy at my last base (E7 type) who wouldn't give a firewall for anything under a 90 PT score, yet he was at the smoke pit puffing away several times a day. Found it quite hypocritical but what can you do?

Annnnnd that's why Chiefs review EPRs. The fatass with a bachelor's degree wants to mark his troop down in education. PTGod doesn't know his job but wants to mark his guy down for an 80 and the President of the Top 3 that hasn't been in the shop all week wants to mark his guy down in base involvement.

sandsjames
01-14-2014, 02:03 PM
Annnnnd that's why Chiefs review EPRs. The fatass with a bachelor's degree wants to mark his troop down in education. PTGod doesn't know his job but wants to mark his guy down for an 80 and the President of the Top 3 that hasn't been in the shop all week wants to mark his guy down in base involvement.

Yes, but in all fairness, if that's the supervisors standards and those standards are the same for all his troops then that's up to him. He can make his standards higher than the Commander, just not lower, right?

ChiefB
01-16-2014, 08:57 AM
I'm glad you think the project name was "fabuleth": :poke: making fun of SAC trained killers?

It was the Euro version of Looking Glass crewed by SAC personnel (and others), with Comm supporting their mission.

JR

Now OFIV tell me these don't bring back memories: Blue Eagle, Silver Dollar, Nightwatch, SACCS, PAS, 465L, Hillsboro, Cricket, Alley Cat, Moonbeam, ERCS, BatCat, Raven, Covey, Nail, Linebacker, Rolling Thunder, Igloo White, Steel Tiger, Barrel Roll, and ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!

Old Fart IV
01-16-2014, 04:17 PM
Now OFIV tell me these don't bring back memories: Blue Eagle, Silver Dollar, Nightwatch, SACCS, PAS, 465L, Hillsboro, Cricket, Alley Cat, Moonbeam, ERCS, BatCat, Raven, Covey, Nail, Linebacker, Rolling Thunder, Igloo White, Steel Tiger, Barrel Roll, and ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!

Yup! I'd add HenryK's SAM 26xxxx missions, PACCS, and others that I have forgotten as time has gone by.

I was in tech school as SEA activities were winding down and didn't get to participate in the SEA missions. We got an earful from those who had "been there and done that" and that us young "wet behind the ears wipper-snapers" needed the "crusty NCO" to whip us into shape so we'd be ready for the cold war and other activities.

JR

socal1200r
01-17-2014, 08:47 PM
The only thing you guys killed were kegs. The Air Force truly took a turn for the better when Gen. McPeak came in & started putting boots firmly in asses.

McPeak? Are you serious? He is without a doubt one of the WORST CSAFs ever. Remember TQM? It doesn't stand for Total Quality Management, it stands for To Quote McPeak. Having aircrew-style name patches on BDUs, was he serious? Making the class A's look like airline pilot or bus driver coats? Really?

BOSS302
01-18-2014, 05:32 PM
McPeak? Are you serious? He is without a doubt one of the WORST CSAFs ever. Remember TQM? It doesn't stand for Total Quality Management, it stands for To Quote McPeak. Having aircrew-style name patches on BDUs, was he serious? Making the class A's look like airline pilot or bus driver coats? Really?

General McPeak transformed the Air Force into a professional, mature, and tolerant fighting machine. Yes, he did make the Air Force service dress coats look like "Airline Pilot" coats. But we are the AIR Force; it was only right that he did so.

You need to thank your lucky stars that Gen. McPeak did the things he did so that my Air Force could be what it is today.

sandsjames
01-18-2014, 05:59 PM
General McPeak transformed the Air Force into a professional, mature, and tolerant fighting machine. Yes, he did make the Air Force service dress coats look like "Airline Pilot" coats. But we are the AIR Force; it was only right that he did so.

You need to thank your lucky stars that Gen. McPeak did the things he did so that my Air Force could be what it is today.

LOL...great stuff...

BRUWIN
01-18-2014, 06:13 PM
General McPeak transformed the Air Force into a professional, mature, and tolerant fighting machine. Yes, he did make the Air Force service dress coats look like "Airline Pilot" coats. But we are the AIR Force; it was only right that he did so.

You need to thank your lucky stars that Gen. McPeak did the things he did so that my Air Force could be what it is today.

Amen to this. Of all the CSAF's...McPeak stands alone. His civilian ponytail portrait adorns my living room wall.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 11:27 AM
I see you picked only a few things that I said like tits beer and smoking. Well I was 17 years old when I came in the AF what else you think I was looking for. If you ask the average 18 year old male recruit if he like a smoke tits and beer I know at least 90 percent would go for 2 out of 3 of these. You are trying to put your morals on others that what I can stand. You don’t want to look at the tits at the back of the club do not go. Why must my right to look at tits be taken away because it offends somebody.

You also forgot about the parts where when I screwed up it was my fault not my supervisor not my commanders 1st Sgt or Chiefs my fault. When NCO were NCO the top 3 when I came in were mostly Vietnam Vets who handled their own troops. I remember my Chief kicked Ass himself. He once told me the only time he sent somebody to see the 1st Sgt was for paperwork. I had the pleasure of working for outstanding NCOS and Senior NCOs I am sorry if you were never taught to be a old School NCO. I was

Why do you want your employer to sponsor strippers at the base club? Is it because you aren't resourceful enough to find titties on your own?

As far as holding the individual accountable and not the supervisory chain accountable, well that is just nonsense that you are talking.

Back in the day, supervisors felt just as much pressure and heat as they do today when their troops screw up.

A supervisor should be scrutinized when troop fails a QA eval, doesn't pass their CDCs or any other work related issue that gets them into trouble.

If a troop gets a DUI, or some other off-duty trouble, I don't have a problem with asking the supervisor a few tough questions.

I focused on the alcohol, tobacco, sex aspect of you post because it was the majority of your rant.

The fact that you are trying to suggest that "old school" NCOs were never held accountable for their troops is ridiculous.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 11:44 AM
Why do you want your employer to sponsor strippers at the base club? Is it because you aren't resourceful enough to find titties on your own?

As far as holding the individual accountable and not the supervisory chain accountable, well that is just nonsense that you are talking.

Back in the day, supervisors felt just as much pressure and heat as they do today when their troops screw up.

A supervisor should be scrutinized when troop fails a QA eval, doesn't pass their CDCs or any other work related issue that gets them into trouble.

If a troop gets a DUI, or some other off-duty trouble, I don't have a problem with asking the supervisor a few tough questions.

I focused on the alcohol, tobacco, sex aspect of you post because it was the majority of your rant.

The fact that you are trying to suggest that "old school" NCOs were never held accountable for their troops is ridiculous.

I think the difference between then and now is that the NCO/supervisor used to be able to take care of things at shop level. Now, everything that happens is immediately pushed up the chain and Chiefs get involved. That's why it didn't seem like the higher ups were involved. There wasn't as much need for a paper trail. It was much more common for an ass chewing to take place. Now it's an LOC that immediately gets placed in the PIF, reviewed by the Shirt/Chief/Commander. Then the troop and supervisor get called into the office.

Shop level stuff should be handled at the shop and go no farther, unless it persists. Only the bigger issues should be making it up the chain.

Chief_KO
01-24-2014, 12:05 PM
I think the difference between then and now is that the NCO/supervisor used to be able to take care of things at shop level. Now, everything that happens is immediately pushed up the chain and Chiefs get involved. That's why it didn't seem like the higher ups were involved. There wasn't as much need for a paper trail. It was much more common for an ass chewing to take place. Now it's an LOC that immediately gets placed in the PIF, reviewed by the Shirt/Chief/Commander. Then the troop and supervisor get called into the office.

Shop level stuff should be handled at the shop and go no farther, unless it persists. Only the bigger issues should be making it up the chain.

I agree totally, but unfortunately that is not often the case. Then the front office hears about Amn X through outside sources and after checking with the NCOIC, nothing was done. OR NCOIC visits First Sgt/Chief to seek assistance (okay whine) about Amn X, wanting Amn X "disciplined"...when PIF is empty & lo & behold recent EPR was an overall 5. Many young NCOs are afraid to document (even an MFR) and equally afraid to kick it up the chain of command for fear it will look bad on them. Exactly the opposite, if Amn X does not respond to a verbal, you don't repeat/repeat/repeat in hopes that the 12th time it will work.
I appreciated it when an NCOIC came to me and said "Chief, Amn X did this so I counseled him on it". I would ask if he/she wanted me to engage or if the issue has been resolved. It's good for the front office to know something happened so they are not knee-capped later if it blows up into something serious.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 12:16 PM
I agree totally, but unfortunately that is not often the case. Then the front office hears about Amn X through outside sources and after checking with the NCOIC, nothing was done. OR NCOIC visits First Sgt/Chief to seek assistance (okay whine) about Amn X, wanting Amn X "disciplined"...when PIF is empty & lo & behold recent EPR was an overall 5. Many young NCOs are afraid to document (even an MFR) and equally afraid to kick it up the chain of command for fear it will look bad on them. Exactly the opposite, if Amn X does not respond to a verbal, you don't repeat/repeat/repeat in hopes that the 12th time it will work.
I appreciated it when an NCOIC came to me and said "Chief, Amn X did this so I counseled him on it". I would ask if he/she wanted me to engage or if the issue has been resolved. It's good for the front office to know something happened so they are not knee-capped later if it blows up into something serious.

True, but then you run into the problem with the EPR, as you mentioned. If I tell you about an issue (even if minor) you are going to have questions when the 5 EPR (which you really don't even need to see because it's already gone through 3 other NCO/SNCOs) crosses your desk. I'm sure you are aware of this, but there are many Chiefs who are 1 mistake Chiefs. Even if you aren't going to "recommend" a markdown, you are going to take a more active roll (watching more closely) on the actions of that troop. You are going to find more things wrong than you would have if you weren't in the loop in the first place. Some things require a microscope but most do not.

Chief_KO
01-24-2014, 12:26 PM
True, but then you run into the problem with the EPR, as you mentioned. If I tell you about an issue (even if minor) you are going to have questions when the 5 EPR (which you really don't even need to see because it's already gone through 3 other NCO/SNCOs) crosses your desk. I'm sure you are aware of this, but there are many Chiefs who are 1 mistake Chiefs. Even if you aren't going to "recommend" a markdown, you are going to take a more active roll (watching more closely) on the actions of that troop. You are going to find more things wrong than you would have if you weren't in the loop in the first place. Some things require a microscope but most do not.

Well, I guess you'd just have to trust me that I was not a 1 mistake Chief. I was a more than 1 mistake Amn-NCO-SNCO and never forgot the fact that my supervisors helped to correct me.
If I got an EPR on Amn X that was a 5 (firewall) but I knew that he had an issue, I would just make a call to the shop to follow up that it was a one-time incident and that X has more than rebounded from it.
Here's an example of the opposite: Shop sent up a 418 recommending reenlistment for Amn Y. I was new to the unit, only been there a couple of week and the shirt had only been there a week more. After a lookie at the empty PIF I was more than ready to concur and push it to the CC, well lo & behold Y had a long track record of missing PT, late to work, poor work, etc. Not a single piece of paper and the shop was okay for him to reenlist...
Well, the shirt & I had a nice discussion with the NCOIC on his full range of responsibilities.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 12:31 PM
I agree totally, but unfortunately that is not often the case. Then the front office hears about Amn X through outside sources and after checking with the NCOIC, nothing was done. OR NCOIC visits First Sgt/Chief to seek assistance (okay whine) about Amn X, wanting Amn X "disciplined"...when PIF is empty & lo & behold recent EPR was an overall 5. Many young NCOs are afraid to document (even an MFR) and equally afraid to kick it up the chain of command for fear it will look bad on them. Exactly the opposite, if Amn X does not respond to a verbal, you don't repeat/repeat/repeat in hopes that the 12th time it will work.
I appreciated it when an NCOIC came to me and said "Chief, Amn X did this so I counseled him on it". I would ask if he/she wanted me to engage or if the issue has been resolved. It's good for the front office to know something happened so they are not knee-capped later if it blows up into something serious.

Nobody likes to be blind-sided on any type of issue. I remember being told that back in 1984 and I'm sure that it was like that back in 1947.

I have always been annoyed by the gloom and doom crowd that contends that past was brighter and that the present and the future are in the toilet.

Change isn't always bad, and after all, there are a few constants; unfortunately, one of the few things you can always count on is the chorus of nostalgic whiners who moan about everything and cry, "Not the AF I joined.... That's for sure."

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 12:36 PM
Nobody likes to be blind-sided on any type of issue. I remember being told that back in 1984 and I'm sure that it was like that back in 1947.

I have always been annoyed by the gloom and doom crowd that contends that past was brighter and that the present and the future are in the toilet.

Change isn't always bad, and after all, there are a few constants; unfortunately, one of the few things you can always count on is the chorus of nostalgic whiners who moan about everything and cry, "Not the AF I joined.... That's for sure."


What did you expect in a thread called "Not the Air Force I joined..."?

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 12:40 PM
Nobody likes to be blind-sided on any type of issue. I remember being told that back in 1984 and I'm sure that it was like that back in 1947.

I have always been annoyed by the gloom and doom crowd that contends that past was brighter and that the present and the future are in the toilet.

Change isn't always bad, and after all, there are a few constants; unfortunately, one of the few things you can always count on is the chorus of nostalgic whiners who moan about everything and cry, "Not the AF I joined.... That's for sure."

And what's even worse is "leadership" that takes every complaint and concern of their troops and refers to it all as whining and moaning. Have you ever heard a valid complaint in your life? Well, I'm sure it was valid if you agreed with it. Otherwise it was just whining, no doubt.

Absinthe Anecdote
01-24-2014, 01:17 PM
And what's even worse is "leadership" that takes every complaint and concern of their troops and refers to it all as whining and moaning. Have you ever heard a valid complaint in your life? Well, I'm sure it was valid if you agreed with it. Otherwise it was just whining, no doubt.

I always evaluated the complaints of my troops very carefully. I would first listen to their grievance very carefully, and then I would look at their uniform, if it was neatly pressed and squared away, I would continue to listen to them.

I would then consider their PT scores and determine if they had too much subcutaneous fat around their abdominal circumference.

If they had a bunch of fat hanging over their belt, I would try to get them moved to another shop as quickly as possible.

If they kept making noise, I would have a few of my super-trim-and-fit star performers bake a mass amount of cup cakes and hold breakfast burrito sales until the fat bodied whiner ate their way into serious trouble.

We would just laugh and laugh as we wrote glowing bullet statements for raising so much money for the Top 3 and First 6.

You see, I always listened to complainers very carefully and was inventive in finding ways to make the most out of a bad situation.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 01:22 PM
I always evaluated the complaints of my troops very carefully. I would first listen to their grievance very carefully, and then I would look at their uniform, if it was neatly pressed and squared away, I would continue to listen to them.

I would then consider their PT scores and determine if they had too much subcutaneous fat around their abdominal circumference.

If they had a bunch of fat hanging over their belt, I would try to get them moved to another shop as quickly as possible.

If they kept making noise, I would have a few of my super-trim-and-fit star performers bake a mass amount of cup cakes and hold breakfast burrito sales until the fat bodied whiner ate their way into serious trouble.

We would just laugh and laugh as we wrote glowing bullet statements for raising so much money for the Top 3 and First 6.

You see, I always listened to complainers very carefully and was inventive in finding ways to make the most out of a bad situation.

You joke, but this is all too common.

Chief_KO
01-24-2014, 03:52 PM
Are we really that different in 2014 than we were at any previous time?

From the AF Manual on Leadership, 1948:

“More easily obtained luxuries have helped foster selfishness and individualism and decreased sense of social responsibility.
Our civilization has made him more competitive, cynical and aggressive.
It has filled him with increased anxieties and insatiable wants.
Although better educated than before, this does not entirely offset the fact that he is more difficult to lead.
Blind devotion is being supplanted by the eternal question, “WHY?”
The Soldier of today cannot be driven or intimidated, he must be led.”

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 04:04 PM
Are we really that different in 2014 than we were at any previous time?

From the AF Manual on Leadership, 1948:

“More easily obtained luxuries have helped foster selfishness and individualism and decreased sense of social responsibility.
Our civilization has made him more competitive, cynical and aggressive.
It has filled him with increased anxieties and insatiable wants.
Although better educated than before, this does not entirely offset the fact that he is more difficult to lead.
Blind devotion is being supplanted by the eternal question, “WHY?”
The Soldier of today cannot be driven or intimidated, he must be led.”

What was written was similar. The execution of those things is what's changed.

Chief_KO
01-24-2014, 04:24 PM
What was written was similar. The execution of those things is what's changed.

As has virtually every phase of life; just at a more accelerated pace the last decade or so.

sandsjames
01-24-2014, 05:32 PM
As has virtually every phase of life; just at a more accelerated pace the last decade or so.

And the problem is that change isn't always good, just for the sake of it. I guess what bugs me most is that the AF went from being it's own entity to worrying about the same things as all other organizations.

I'm curious to know if the other services deal with the same issues on, or near, the same scale the AF does. Does the Army have a problem with stuff getting taken care of at the shop level? If not, why? What do they do different? Have they changed how they deal with their troops? Do they have to babysit like the AF does?

Chief_KO
01-24-2014, 05:45 PM
I can't speak for the other services today but let me give you my snapshot in time experiences I had with sister services:
1997 I was deployed to the USS Blue Ridge to troubleshoot & configure communications. The Navy technicians needed the Master Chief's (E9) okay to perform such basic troubleshooting tasks as power off/power on or reload the crypto keys, tasks I would expect any E-3 and above to be able to perform on their own. Logic: It's already inop, turning it off/on or reloading crypto will not make it more inop.
2004 I was forward-deployed with a multi-service CENTCOM team to the AOR, our main contingent was in Qatar. We needed to have sport coat/slacks to work in the Embassy, one of our Army guys had a suit made back at Qatar but it was not ready when we departed. Our Army First Sgt was coming forward to visit and check out our ops...the Army guy asked me (I was the senior enlisted on site) if I could ask our Major to ask the First Sergeant if he could hand carry the SPC's suit when he came forward. Again, I would expect any E-4 or above to know he could contact the First Sgt himself, rather than ask two others in the unit to ask on his behalf.
Of all the sister services, the one I think most equates with the AF when it comes to applying logic and self-sufficiency is the Marine Corps.

I totally agree that change for change itself is not good, the main thing I wish the AF would do (especially regarding uniform changes) is to reply to Amn Z: "Thanks for your suggestion, but in interest of heritage and tradition we are not approving your recommendation."