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fufu
12-27-2013, 10:32 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/27/military-sex-assault-reports-jump-by-50-percent/?intcmp=latestnews

The number of reported sexual assaults across the military shot up by more than 50 percent this year, an increase that defense officials say may suggest that victims are becoming more willing to come forward after a tumultuous year of scandals that shined a spotlight on the crimes and put pressure on the military to take aggressive action.

A string of high-profile assaults and arrests triggered outrage in Congress and set off months of debate over how to change the military justice system, while military leaders launched a series of new programs intended to beef up accountability and encourage victims to come forward.

According to early data obtained by The Associated Press, there were more than 5,000 reports of sexual assault filed during the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, compared to the 3,374 in 2012. Of those 2013 reports, about 10 percent involved incidents that occurred before the victim got into the military, up from just 4 percent only a year ago. That increase, officials said, suggests that confidence in the system is growing and that victims are more willing to come forward.

Asked about the preliminary data, defense officials were cautious in their conclusions. But they said surveys, focus groups and repeated meetings with service members throughout the year suggest that the number of actual incidents -- from unwanted sexual contact and harassment to violent assaults -- has remained largely steady.

"Given the multiple data points, we assess that this is more reporting," said Col. Alan R. Metzler, deputy director of the Pentagon's sexual assault prevention and response office. He also noted that more victims are agreeing to make official complaints, rather than simply seeking medical care without filing formal accusations.

The military has long struggled to get victims to report sexual harassment and assault in a stern military culture that emphasizes rank, loyalty and toughness. Too often, victims have complained that they were afraid to report assaults to ranking officers, or that their initial complaints were rebuffed or ignored.

As a result, the crime has been vastly underreported --- a fact that became evident when officials announced earlier this year that an anonymous survey had revealed that about 26,000 service members reported some type of unwanted sexual contact or sexual assault.

According to the latest numbers, the increase in reports across the services ranges from a low of about 45 percent for the Air Force to a high of 86 percent for the Marines, the smallest service. The Navy had an increase of 46 percent and the Army, by far the largest military service, had a 50 percent jump.

Jill Loftus, director of the Navy's sexual assault program, which also includes the Marine Corps, said the increase in reporting also suggests that more service members are starting to understand what types of behavior constitute harassment or assault.

She said that based on Navy surveys, "we are not seeing a perception that the number of incidents are going up."

"More likely, we have people who understand what sexual assault is," she said. And, she said, officials are hearing that more people are comfortable coming forward.

Meanwhile, a myriad of sexual assault arrests and scandals, including an Air Force commander's decision to dismiss sex assault charges against another officer who had been convicted of multiple offenses, got the attention of Congress. And it all led to a series of often emotional public hearings in which victims described their experiences.

As Congress debated changes in the military's justice system, the Pentagon and the services instituted new training programs that targeted rank-and-file service members as well as top commanders and officers.

Several of the new programs were aimed at encouraging service members to be more vigilant, and to look out for each other and intercede if they saw a bad situation developing. There also were moves to restrict alcohol sales, since drinking has long been associated with sexual assault and harassment.

By year's end, after lengthy negotiations between Capitol Hill and the Pentagon, lawmakers passed legislation that beefs up legal rights for victims and strips military commanders of their ability to overturn jury convictions. It also requires a civilian review if a commander declines to prosecute a case and requires that any individual convicted of sexual assault face a dishonorable discharge or dismissal.

Defense officials beat back efforts to more drastically revamp the military justice system that would take authority away from commanders and allow victims of rape and sexual assault to go outside the chain of command for prosecutions.

Still, military leaders acknowledge a lot of work remains to be done.

Metzler said the goal for this year is to continue efforts to increase reporting while also working more directly to reduce the survey number of 26,000 sexual harassment and assault victims.

Already, the military services are exchanging information on prevention programs that seem to be working.

Air Force officials, for example, visited a Navy pilot program at Naval Station Great Lakes in Illinois that worked with local hotels and bars to try to crack down on drinking by sailors from the naval station there. In the program, sailors are being taught to intervene when they see mates in trouble or engaging in bad behavior.

Loftus said the goal this year will be to improve the training so that sailors will actually have to act out scenarios in order to help them figure out when it's best to intervene and to ensure they have some type of plan before jumping into a situation.

Other programs that are being used more broadly include moves to cut hours of alcohol sales and the use of roving patrols of service members looking out for troops in trouble. She also said that some commanders are making their courts martial more public, publicizing the punishments for crimes, including sexual assault, and even holding cases on their parade fields, where all can watch.

"We're still not where we want things to be," said Metzler. "But we think all of this is having an effect."

sandsjames
12-27-2013, 10:54 PM
Of course the numbers are up. Everything gets reported, and more things than ever are officially considered sexual assault. If the freezing temperature was raised to 36 degrees, the number of days below freezing would go up.

imnohero
12-27-2013, 10:57 PM
More reporting is good. Too bad the actual assault numbers don't seem to be going down.

LogDog
12-27-2013, 11:17 PM
More reporting is good. Too bad the actual assault numbers don't seem to be going down.
Hopefully, with the more reporting and, again, hopefully with action being taken against those who are guilty it will deliver the message to others.

Airborne
12-27-2013, 11:49 PM
When grabbing a chicks ass is considered sexual assault then of course the numbers are going to go up.

imnohero
12-28-2013, 12:22 AM
That's because it is sexual assault. Didn't anyone teach you to keep your hands to yourself?

BOSS302
12-28-2013, 01:35 AM
That's because it is sexual assault. Didn't anyone teach you to keep your hands to yourself?

You must be a SAPR augmentee. Got consent?

Airborne
12-28-2013, 03:54 AM
That's because it is sexual assault. Didn't anyone teach you to keep your hands to yourself?

It's something not cool, but it's not sexual assault. Im not sure what the term would be, but it's not sexual assault. Im glad the SAPR program is working as designed though. Keep drinking the pink Kool-Aid. And yes I have a daughter and a wife, blah blah blah.......

imnohero
12-28-2013, 04:09 AM
And we wonder why there is a problem.

Juggs
12-28-2013, 04:30 AM
It's something not cool, but it's not sexual assault. Im not sure what the term would be, but it's not sexual assault. Im glad the SAPR program is working as designed though. Keep drinking the pink Kool-Aid. And yes I have a daughter and a wife, blah blah blah.......

Actually by definition of the word assault and smacking an ass of someone of the opposite sex in an unwanted manner is sexual you have sexual assault.

It's good that you have women in your life. Now you know when they have been sexually assaulted and can justifiably rip off the arms of an offender and beat him to death with the wet ends.

Edit------ the act of touching is battery. Creating an environment of fear of a harmful or offensive contact.

Airborne
12-28-2013, 05:23 AM
And we wonder why there is a problem.

No one wonders why there is a problem. I understand there can be a culture of fear created when a Chief grabs some SrAs ass in the workplace and nothing happens. I get it. I got it before the whole SAPR debacle. My point is, when it comes to actual numbers the military is trumpeting, there is a difference between being forcefully raped and getting your ass grabbed (not slapped). We as a military report it as equal incidents. Call 911 (off base) and say you were raped vs having your ass grabbed and see what the difference in reaction is.

technomage1
12-28-2013, 05:38 AM
No one wonders why there is a problem. I understand there can be a culture of fear created when a Chief grabs some SrAs ass in the workplace and nothing happens. I get it. I got it before the whole SAPR debacle. My point is, when it comes to actual numbers the military is trumpeting, there is a difference between being forcefully raped and getting your ass grabbed (not slapped). We as a military report it as equal incidents. Call 911 (off base) and say you were raped vs having your ass grabbed and see what the difference in reaction is.

The reaction from 911 off base would be different. However, the reaction from the perpetrator's employer would be the same. The rapist or the ass grabber would be fired. The rapist would face additional penalties from law enforcement but that doesn't mean either behavior is acceptable in the workplace.

sandsjames
12-28-2013, 12:41 PM
Don't forget, we're also in a culture where a kid getting teased in school is called bullying when it used to just be called part of growing up. We're attempting to create a culture of pussies, and we are succeeding. It's the same reason why the discipline in the home and in the workplace can no longer take place properly.

Cookie Monster
12-28-2013, 01:24 PM
Please define "proper" discipline...

Juggs
12-28-2013, 02:07 PM
Don't forget, we're also in a culture where a kid getting teased in school is called bullying when it used to just be called part of growing up. We're attempting to create a culture of pussies, and we are succeeding. It's the same reason why the discipline in the home and in the workplace can no longer take place properly.

Where is the line between teasing and bullying? Is it drawn after the kid suck starts a gun or hangs him or herself.

I got what you call teased growing up. It didn't stop until I started throwing punches. After and a suspension for standing up for myself it stopped.

Now how far does it have to go? A kid tells a teacher, teacher doesn't do shit, kids tells principal, principal doesn't do shit. Kids just keeps getting picked on and teased for yrs until he a snaps kills somebody and is referred to as a monster or hangs himself and is called a pussy.

Juggs
12-28-2013, 02:08 PM
No one wonders why there is a problem. I understand there can be a culture of fear created when a Chief grabs some SrAs ass in the workplace and nothing happens. I get it. I got it before the whole SAPR debacle. My point is, when it comes to actual numbers the military is trumpeting, there is a difference between being forcefully raped and getting your ass grabbed (not slapped). We as a military report it as equal incidents. Call 911 (off base) and say you were raped vs having your ass grabbed and see what the difference in reaction is.

Ill have different reactions to somebody grabbing my daughters ass. Ill break his damn hand and beat him.

If, God forbid she was ever raped, that individual would simply die by any means possible.

Airborne
12-28-2013, 02:53 PM
Ill have different reactions to somebody grabbing my daughters ass. Ill break his damn hand and beat him.

If, God forbid she was ever raped, that individual would simply die by any means possible.

Probably a bit of an overreaction. It's in intuitive to be protective of one's daughter perhaps because society tells us to be waiting with a shotgun when the boyfriend shows up (I find it a bit incestual). But that same human instinct makes you crane your neck at that woman's ass walking down the street and that same human instinct makes your daughter want flaunt her ass so it will be grabbed. Being able to suppress our instincts is what makes us human, but sexuality and procreation are the hardest ones for us to suppress.

Juggs
12-28-2013, 03:02 PM
Probably a bit of an overreaction. It's in intuitive to be protective of one's daughter perhaps because society tells us to be waiting with a shotgun when the boyfriend shows up (I find it a bit incestual). But that same human instinct makes you crane your neck at that woman's ass walking down the street and that same human instinct makes your daughter want flaunt her ass so it will be grabbed. Being able to suppress our instincts is what makes us human, but sexuality and procreation are the hardest ones for us to suppress.


Not an overreaction to somebody placing their hands on my daughter against her wishes. There is a difference between staring and touching.

BOSS302
12-28-2013, 04:43 PM
Don't forget, we're also in a culture where a kid getting teased in school is called bullying when it used to just be called part of growing up. We're attempting to create a culture of pussies, and we are succeeding. It's the same reason why the discipline in the home and in the workplace can no longer take place properly.


Where is the line between teasing and bullying? Is it drawn after the kid suck starts a gun or hangs him or herself.

I got what you call teased growing up. It didn't stop until I started throwing punches. After and a suspension for standing up for myself it stopped.

Now how far does it have to go? A kid tells a teacher, teacher doesn't do shit, kids tells principal, principal doesn't do shit. Kids just keeps getting picked on and teased for yrs until he a snaps kills somebody and is referred to as a monster or hangs himself and is called a pussy.

I would have to agree with sandsjames.

Airborne
12-28-2013, 05:07 PM
Not an overreaction to somebody placing their hands on my daughter against her wishes. There is a difference between staring and touching.

I dont go on the internet to change peoples minds. Someone grabs your daughters ass and you wish to break their hands. Only you can touch your daughters ass.

Juggs
12-28-2013, 05:08 PM
I would have to agree with sandsjames.

I agree with it in the aspect of discipline at home and the work place have become a joke. However, bullying has gotten out of hand as well. How about those little shits being relentless against a bus chaperone. Tell her she should die and her son committed suicide because she was an ugly fat POS. Her son did commit suicide some time earlier.

I guess she's just a pussy for getting upset.

Yes there is a difference between teasing and bullying.

imnohero
12-28-2013, 09:58 PM
So let's see, Sandsjames thinks that women are just "weak" for reporting sexual assaults ... possibly he thinks they deserve it because they are weak. Airborne thinks women are "asking for it" and that only forcable rape is sexual assault. I'm not sure which one is worse.

But to be sure, they represent a real attitude. People that think this way can't be reasoned with. The best the military can do is figure out a way to just force them out because until these sort of attitudes are irradicated, sexual crimes of all types will continue.

Airborne
12-29-2013, 12:42 AM
So let's see, Sandsjames thinks that women are just "weak" for reporting sexual assaults ... possibly he thinks they deserve it because they are weak. Airborne thinks women are "asking for it" and that only forcable rape is sexual assault. I'm not sure which one is worse.

But to be sure, they represent a real attitude. People that think this way can't be reasoned with. The best the military can do is figure out a way to just force them out because until these sort of attitudes are irradicated, sexual crimes of all types will continue.

Please go to my previous posts and quote where I said women are asking for it. All I was saying was that people think that there is rampant sexual assault going on in the military wherein we report ass grabbing as sexual assault when the majority of society doesnt consider that to be the case. So when a young women tells her parents she wants the join the military they say no because "sexaul assault" is rampant. In the meantime she goes to college and gets drugged and penetrated at a frat party and gets actually assaulted. But it is the internet so it's like going to the Beef 'O Brady Bowl. Doesnt really matter.

USMC0341
12-29-2013, 12:58 AM
If ass grabbing is sexual assault, I sexually assault my wife like ten times a day...

imnohero
12-29-2013, 01:19 AM
But it is the internet so it's like going to the Beef 'O Brady Bowl. Doesnt really matter.

The fact that you continue to post suggest that you think it does matter.

Airborne
12-29-2013, 01:22 AM
The fact that you continue to post suggest that you think it does matter.

Nah. I was actually done until whats his face said that I said that girls are 'asking for it'. I might say some unpopular things on here, but I couldnt let that one go.

sandsjames
12-29-2013, 02:13 AM
Where is the line between teasing and bullying? Is it drawn after the kid suck starts a gun or hangs him or herself.

I got what you call teased growing up. It didn't stop until I started throwing punches. After and a suspension for standing up for myself it stopped.

Now how far does it have to go? A kid tells a teacher, teacher doesn't do shit, kids tells principal, principal doesn't do shit. Kids just keeps getting picked on and teased for yrs until he a snaps kills somebody and is referred to as a monster or hangs himself and is called a pussy.

We are raising a generation of pussies. I'm not saying that bullying isn't an issue. I'm just saying that there are many things now which are called bullying that aren't. Hell, they call it bullying when someone posts something mean on someone else's facebook page. It's a generation that won't do as you say you did and stand up for themselves. And I promise that these kids will grow up to be adults who can't handle being criticized. But we'll keep telling them they are special and great and perfect.

imnohero
12-29-2013, 12:55 PM
wherein we report ass grabbing as sexual assault when the majority of society doesnt consider that to be the case.

"ass grabbing" is sexual assault. Whether you agree with that truth or not. And what you think doesn't mean that the "majority of society" thinks the same way. Below are the definitions of sexual assault from 2 federal agencies and USC 10. I didn't bother to look up and quote all 50 state definitions of sexual assault, but the majority include groping as part of the definition. You might think you are saying "unpopular things" but what you are really saying is flat wrong. If you don't think so, I invite you to go to your commander or JAG office and state your opinion on the topic and see what reaction you get. And make sure you include that part about how being protective of his daughter is really incestual lust.

Department of Justice:
Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape.

Bureau of Justice:
A wide range of victimizations, separate from rape or attempted rape. These crimes include attacks or attempted attacks generally involving unwanted sexual contact between victim and offender. Sexual assaults may or may not involve force and include such things as grabbing or fondling. It also includes verbal threats.

10 U.S. Code § 920 - Art. 120. Rape and sexual assault generally

(b) Sexual Assault.— Any person subject to this chapter who—
(1) commits a sexual act upon another person by—
(A) threatening or placing that other person in fear;
(B) causing bodily harm to that other person;
(C) making a fraudulent representation that the sexual act serves a professional purpose; or
(D) inducing a belief by any artifice, pretense, or concealment that the person is another person;
(2) commits a sexual act upon another person when the person knows or reasonably should know that the other person is asleep, unconscious, or otherwise unaware that the sexual act is occurring; or
(3) commits a sexual act upon another person when the other person is incapable of consenting to the sexual act due to—
(A) impairment by any drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance, and that condition is known or reasonably should be known by the person; or
(B) a mental disease or defect, or physical disability, and that condition is known or reasonably should be known by the person;
is guilty of sexual assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Brewhound
12-30-2013, 07:59 PM
I wont go in to whether or not ass grabbing is sexual assault. However as far as the number of cases going up I will add my 2 cents. When you have any system that is established in which people, (mainly women) can use it to their advantage they will game the shit out of it. I also agree with the one post that states; “ if you change the freezing temperature to 36 degrees then the number of days below freezing goes up.” I for one have seen first hand the cloud that sexual assault allegations sweep over a command during my two tours in Korea. It is always disguised as the MALE being this dark sexual predator out to get his next nut. All along you have the fragile female sitting in her room practicing abstinence fresh out of the convent, attacked her first night out at the Mustang club. “ Its never the woman’s fault!!!!! “ They are some how never responsible for their actions. I have had two different troops that were accused of this during my time in and they were both found NOT guilty. Both times these women where married and separated from their spouse and just looking for a little taste of something different. This is until they get caught and have to pay the piper or have to make the WALK OF SHAME the next morning. Then it is “ I was drunk” …” I don’t know what happened” “ I would never step out on my boo.” Well I am here to tell you, they play the same bullshit games we do as males and are much better at it, until they get caught. They don’t have to face the music, because they will pull the titty power card and cry their way out of it. The real bad deal is when they are caught in the lie and still nothing happens to them. That is the true injustice. This is mainly why the real victims are never given the true amount of help they deserve and need. You see they are never held to the same standards in the military ( As males) and never will be due to all the protectionism afforded to them. You can agree or disagree but that is what I have noticed in the 18 or so years. Happy New Year and God Bless. .

imnohero
12-30-2013, 10:09 PM
OK, two troops were accused and found not guilty. How many were accused and found guilty?

Brewhound
12-30-2013, 10:55 PM
OK, two troops were accused and found not guilty. How many were accused and found guilty?

I have only had one that was found guilty and it was more along the lines of a severe ass grabbing incident than full out Rape. However, I still cringe to this day by what I saw those two young men go through on the road to prove their innocence. Their careers were pretty much shattered and their attitudes toward women and the military were less than positive. For the women that made the false accusations, one got a verbal reprimand from a female CC and the other got a follow on assignment to plush area of the world and was none the worse for wear, except for the relationship with her husband I imagine. To me either way you go you have a victim and that is the really tragic part. These alleged crimes are magnified under the command structure so much that it doesn't matter who is guilty anymore or who is innocent. Someone has to be made an example of a Big blue really doesn't give a shit who. Rather they prefer the accused go down on flames rather to find the innocence in someone. If anything they should have an independent body outside the command structure investigate so people can call bullshit or foul much more easily. That way the young A1C has a shot a Justice and the Fighter pilot Major can get what they deserves.

mikezulu1
12-30-2013, 11:07 PM
I have only had one that was found guilty and it was more along the lines of a severe ass grabbing incident than full out Rape. However, I still cringe to this day by what I saw those two young men go through on the road to prove their innocence. Their careers were pretty much shattered and their attitudes toward women and the military were less than positive. For the women that made the false accusations, one got a verbal reprimand from a female CC and the other got a follow on assignment to plush area of the world and was none the worse for wear, except for the relationship with her husband I imagine. To me either way you go you have a victim and that is the really tragic part. These alleged crimes are magnified under the command structure so much that it doesn't matter who is guilty anymore or who is innocent. Someone has to be made an example of a Big blue really doesn't give a shit who. Rather they prefer the accused go down on flames rather to find the innocence in someone. If anything they should have an independent body outside the command structure investigate so people can call bullshit or foul much more easily. That way the young A1C has a shot a Justice and the Fighter pilot Major can get what they deserves.

amen

imnohero
12-30-2013, 11:18 PM
I agree, the entire process should be separated from the accuser/accused chain of command.

Somewhat differently than your experience, I had the following incidents that I was aware of (at my base, not my unit):

1) SrA Male accused by A1C Female...charges dismissed for lack of evidence. (note: he did it, they just couldn't prove it) A1C female ostrasized as a "false accuser" and put up with harassment and all kinds of BS until she separated.

2) MSgt Male accused by SrA Female (his subordinate) of extoriong sex for EPR rating. MSgt Male transfered to a different unit where he didn't have any subordinates and allowed to retire 6 months later, SrA Female give a 5 and PCS'd. The whole thing was swept under the rug.

3) LtCol Male solicits SSgt Male for oral sex while overseas TDY. SSgt reports incident when he gets home, LtCol agrees to non-judicial punishment and separates. SSgt none the worse for wear.

#3 is the only time the system worked the way it was supposed to work. I don't know that false accusations are as much of a problem as lack of even-handed justice in the legal command process. Which I believe is your point? Whether the changes the Congress has mandated and the DoD are making will improve the processes or not, remains to be seen.

mikezulu1
12-30-2013, 11:24 PM
I agree, the entire process should be separated from the accuser/accused chain of command.

Somewhat differently than your experience, I had the following incidents that I was aware of (at my base, not my unit):

1) SrA Male accused by A1C Female...charges dismissed for lack of evidence. (note: he did it, they just couldn't prove it) A1C female ostrasized as a "false accuser" and put up with harassment and all kinds of BS until she separated.

2) MSgt Male accused by SrA Female (his subordinate) of extoriong sex for EPR rating. MSgt Male transfered to a different unit where he didn't have any subordinates and allowed to retire 6 months later, SrA Female give a 5 and PCS'd. The whole thing was swept under the rug.

3) LtCol Male solicits SSgt Male for oral sex while overseas TDY. SSgt reports incident when he gets home, LtCol agrees to non-judicial punishment and separates. SSgt none the worse for wear.

#3 is the only time the system worked the way it was supposed to work. I don't know that false accusations are as much of a problem as lack of even-handed justice in the legal command process. Which I believe is your point? Whether the changes the Congress has mandated and the DoD are making will improve the processes or not, remains to be seen.


Jesus Christ what kind of units have you guys been in? I have not been in any unit that has even had accusations brought up and I've been in for a little over 8yrs. Thats why I dont get the constant harping on this shit. But I guess there is more of a problem than what Ive encountered

imnohero
12-31-2013, 12:09 AM
3 incidents in 21 years is what I was personally aware of. While I wouldn't call these "common place" they do happen and the AF does a pretty good job of keeping them quiet. If I hadn't been in close proximity, I would have never known they happened.

kool-aid
01-02-2014, 04:13 AM
Don't forget, we're also in a culture where a kid getting teased in school is called bullying when it used to just be called part of growing up. We're attempting to create a culture of pussies, and we are succeeding. It's the same reason why the discipline in the home and in the workplace can no longer take place properly.

Because of this I don't feel sorry for these soft, emo freaks and geeks that kill themselves because life "SOOOO" sad and hard. I was picked on relentlessly by the basketball star because I was plump and bad at sports. He picked on me everyday, everyday until I grew a pair and stood up to him. We are raising kids who are incapable of growing a pair because parents coddle them and make them titty babies. They instead of fighting back, they just give up and kill themselves. So to some up, there have always been bullies, but the kids these days are too woosified to handle it.

imnohero
01-02-2014, 05:42 AM
Life is very often sad and hard. That some folks are unable to cope is a tragedy, whether they are kids or grown ups, civilian or military. That you have no compassion for these people reflects poorly on you.

garhkal
01-02-2014, 06:29 AM
No one wonders why there is a problem. I understand there can be a culture of fear created when a Chief grabs some SrAs ass in the workplace and nothing happens. I get it. I got it before the whole SAPR debacle. My point is, when it comes to actual numbers the military is trumpeting, there is a difference between being forcefully raped and getting your ass grabbed (not slapped). We as a military report it as equal incidents. Call 911 (off base) and say you were raped vs having your ass grabbed and see what the difference in reaction is.

My sentiments exactly. We all know what rape is and how wrong/bad it is, but lumping say someone grabbing someone's ass in the same boat is equally stupid.
But then again, so too is the 'sex offenders registry' these days. Get drunk and need to go piss behind the dumpster and someone see's you, congrats in many states that can get you on that list.


I agree with it in the aspect of discipline at home and the work place have become a joke. However, bullying has gotten out of hand as well. How about those little shits being relentless against a bus chaperone. Tell her she should die and her son committed suicide because she was an ugly fat POS. Her son did commit suicide some time earlier.

I guess she's just a pussy for getting upset.

Yes there is a difference between teasing and bullying.

Then you also add in all the "NEW tech" of texting and social media, making it even easier to harass/bully people, and neither the sites that allow it nor the parents seem wanting to reign it in.


That is the true injustice. This is mainly why the real victims are never given the true amount of help they deserve and need. You see they are never held to the same standards in the military ( As males) and never will be due to all the protectionism afforded to them. You can agree or disagree but that is what I have noticed in the 18 or so years. Happy New Year and God Bless. .

That is one of my biggest gripes with how the mil specifically handles things. Take tail hook for instance. For the first 2-3 years right after, all it took was a women making a CLAIM of harassment/rape to not just ruin someone elses career/life, but make her's cushy as no one could touch her/tell her off etc, for fear of making it seem like she was getting reprisals. And even when claims are found to be false, nothing happens to them cause the powers that be "Don't want to make it seem harder than it is for those who DO have legitimate claims to bring them fourth.

sandsjames
01-02-2014, 12:21 PM
Because of this I don't feel sorry for these soft, emo freaks and geeks that kill themselves because life "SOOOO" sad and hard. I was picked on relentlessly by the basketball star because I was plump and bad at sports. He picked on me everyday, everyday until I grew a pair and stood up to him. We are raising kids who are incapable of growing a pair because parents coddle them and make them titty babies. They instead of fighting back, they just give up and kill themselves. So to some up, there have always been bullies, but the kids these days are too woosified to handle it.

Exactly. I'm not condoning the behavior of bullies, but the fact is that they are always going to be there. People need to learn how to deal with them.

kool-aid
01-02-2014, 11:16 PM
Life is very often sad and hard. That some folks are unable to cope is a tragedy, whether they are kids or grown ups, civilian or military. That you have no compassion for these people reflects poorly on you.

You hurt my poor lil feelings...:sorrow:

Chief_KO
01-09-2014, 10:42 PM
I see today's MT has a story that 2/3 of all reported SA at military academies happened at USAFA. Anyone want to guess which academy was the last to use NCOs/SNCOs to instill discipline in the cadets???

Grease Monkey
06-15-2014, 11:06 AM
Here’s where sexual assaults are faulty :
1. A man goes to a club and has several drinks with his friends. He makes no plans to have a DD and in his drunken state convinces himself he can drive home and will be “just fine”. On the way home he is pulled over and charged with a DUI. He receives and Article 15 and loses a stripe.
2. A man goes to a club and has several drinks with his friends. He gets on the dance floor and finds a woman willing to dance with him. They are getting really close and he puts his hand on her back. She in turn puts her hand on his back. In his drunken state, he thinks he’s “in” and lets his hand slide down to her butt. She pushes him off and walks away. The next day she reports him for sexual assault. He is investigated and if found guilty in a court martial, he will be discharged and might even have to register as a sexual offender.
In both situations, the man made a stupid decision, but only in one did he put lives at risk. That’s the one we allow to stay in. We make excuses, such as “poor planning”, “not having a wingman”, and “at least no one got killed”. We also judge the result of the action. Since no one was killed, punishment isn’t severe. In scenario 2, we punish based on intent. You see the action of the ass grab is meaningless. In order for the man to be convicted of a sexual assault in that scenario, there has to be the intent of sexual gratification. Without the intent there is no crime. That’s huge. Sexual assault is now a law based on intent. This is why so many get no resolution; it is hard to prove that intent in court. What’s worse is the proposed answer to that problem: remove the court. If that happens, sexual assault cases that didn’t have enough evidence to go to court will go to a board instead. In other words the board is a catchall. If the court can’t get you, the board will. This might be fine and dandy in scenario 2, but how is this going to even be remotely close to justice for people falsely accused of sexual assault?

Stalwart
07-26-2014, 01:59 AM
I see today's MT has a story that 2/3 of all reported SA at military academies happened at USAFA. Anyone want to guess which academy was the last to use NCOs/SNCOs to instill discipline in the cadets???

I missed this way back when you posted it ... but would agree that the presence of good enlisted mentors & leaders is vital to developing officers.

Capt Alfredo
07-26-2014, 02:40 AM
I see today's MT has a story that 2/3 of all reported SA at military academies happened at USAFA. Anyone want to guess which academy was the last to use NCOs/SNCOs to instill discipline in the cadets???


I missed this way back when you posted it ... but would agree that the presence of good enlisted mentors & leaders is vital to developing officers.

Correlation, causation, etc. By this logic, were we to say that most perpetrators of SA in the Air Force might be NCOs, we could then say that it'd be the presence of said group that could have "caused" the high number of assaults. A more likely explanation is that the AFA perhaps doesn't do a good job of recruiting/accepting cadets of high moral character.

Stalwart
07-26-2014, 02:54 AM
Correlation, causation, etc. By this logic, were we to say that most perpetrators of SA in the Air Force might be NCOs, we could then say that it'd be the presence of said group that could have "caused" the high number of assaults. A more likely explanation is that the AFA perhaps doesn't do a good job of recruiting/accepting cadets of high moral character.

You could say that. But on the point of having NCO's, SNCO's, CPO's around to lead cadets, midshipmen or candidates ... I think it is a really good idea.

I don't know about the character of AFA or West Point cadets in general. We don't live too far from the Naval Academy, I have been down there twice to speak to small groups and often see midshipmen in town on the weekends. They seem okay, but based on my experiences of running into a lot of USNA graduates in the fleet, some are great, some are average, some are terrible. Character is a tricky thing, very hard to measure it in an application or the static environment of an interview but very easy to gauge when the stakes are high, temptation is rampant and supervision is low.





subjunctive conjugation ... nice.

Chief_KO
07-27-2014, 01:20 PM
I was never stationed at USAFA, but was stationed at Peterson. I did some of the mentor seminars where SNCOs spent a day with the freshmen (Doolies). Having previously taught USAF tech school, my mental image of Cadets was similar to tech school Airmen: uniforms squared away, rigid military customs & courtesies,etc. (for the most part). The cadets were exactly the opposite...sloppy uniforms, long hair, etc. When I brought it up to one of the staff, the answer was "these are basically high school kids", "one third of them won't be back after the Christmas break", "they start becoming Airmen in their junior year"...
Wow, it takes 3 years to transform HS grad into an officer Airman, but only 8 weeks to transform a HS grad into an enlisted Airman.
I understand the big academic difference and the tremendous pressures at USAFA, but there has to be a happy medium.
20 or so years ago, Chiquita Banana stickers were the thing at USAFA. When a male cadet "got" a female cadet, he put a Chiquita Banana sticker on the inside of his cadet wheel hat (not sure what it's officially called). Discipline, etc. was all done by the upperclassmen via their "flight commander" a former USAFA grad brought back to 'advise'...
This was all back in the day when the highest paid employee in DoD was the USAFA football coach, whose base home was bigger than the commandants.
When inmates run the asylum...

Stalwart
07-27-2014, 11:38 PM
Chief_KO, good observations.

When I was stationed on my last ship, I was discussing my frustration with the newest Ensigns (O1's) who had checked aboard (it was Jul 2011 and the new ROTC and USNA graduates were filtering into the fleet.) I was comparing how the OCS graduates (those that DoD/DoN) has spent the least amount of money on (no scholarships etc.) seemed to be as squared away as the ROTC or Academy graduates ... The CO was an Academy graduate. He explained it pretty simply, that (contrary to what I thought), the Naval Academy is very hard on the Plebes (freshman) and after that it is pretty much college with uniforms. There is military training but not to the level I would have thought.

Keeping that in mind, I have never (at least in my commissioned time) thought that we get the same 'bang for our buck' out of the Academies than we do from ROTC (same product: a newly commissioned officer) or even OCS (a newly commissioned officer who was paid as an E5 for 3 months -- unless they were a higher pay grade when they attended -- I was paid as an E7.) I live not too far from the Naval Academy and generally don't see too much jackassery from Midshipmen out in Annapolis, but a couple of times have quietly approached a group to remind them they are in uniform and representing the Academy and the Navy to those around them.

I am not in favor really of closing any of the academies, I like what they represent, but I think there is an overly insular culture that prevents them from accurately addressing concerns. As you pointed out, I think the sports culture (at least at the USNA) is overly emphasized as well as the admissions process seems to be geared more towards diversity than accepting the most highly qualified. I have known as an enlisted Marine and a Naval Officer, some really good officers from the Academy and some really bad ones ... most were pretty average; the same for ROTC and OCS ... it is just another commissioning source.

For my part, as someone who DID NOT attend an Academy, I would rather the USNA was never nationally ranked in any sport but since we spend close to half a million dollars on the average graduate that we are getting a superbly trained, motivated and capable officer to go out and do great things.


A couple of good articles:

The process favoring minorities:
USAToday: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-06-24-navy-admissions_N.htm

Admissions and diversity and the sports culture:
Diverse Education: http://diverseeducation.com/article/14675/

Bang for the Buck?
The Chronicle: http://chronicle.com/article/The-Few-the-Proud-the/134830/

I am not against diversity, or even establishing a quota to promote diversity in the officer corps. At the same time, I am not in favor of taking an otherwise unqualified applicant because they meet a predetermined quota either. A bad product in, is a bad product out ... and that product is supposed to be prepared to make moral & ethical decisions and lead Sailors in combat.

Chief_KO
07-28-2014, 02:43 AM
The other sad part was 98% wanted to be pilots... We each had a table of 10 and we'd ask what their goals were and and at least 9 would always reply pilot, and of those 7 wanted to fighter pilot. The 10th would want to be an astronaut or some other outlandish dream (nothing wrong with having dreams, but reality will eventually take over).
I so wanted to say, well that's nice but here's where you'll be: Comm, Mission Support, CE, SFS, SFS, Missiles, Missiles, Logistics, Pilot (heavies), and #10 you'll be in Contracting or Finance.

Stalwart
07-28-2014, 04:15 AM
The other sad part was 98% wanted to be pilots... We each had a table of 10 and we'd ask what their goals were and and at least 9 would always reply pilot, and of those 7 wanted to fighter pilot. The 10th would want to be an astronaut or some other outlandish dream (nothing wrong with having dreams, but reality will eventually take over).
I so wanted to say, well that's nice but here's where you'll be: Comm, Mission Support, CE, SFS, SFS, Missiles, Missiles, Logistics, Pilot (heavies), and #10 you'll be in Contracting or Finance.

Nothing wrong with having goals but gotta be realistic too.

I have sat on a few boards to recommend people from my commands for officer programs and (in the Navy) you are required to put preferences for jobs when commissioned. I always ask folks "if you get accepted, but not for a program you want, will you still accept the selection -- they do have the option to say no and stay enlisted." I was not selected for any of my preferences but offered three designators I didn't not ask for. If someone says no, that is fine but they are likely not going to get my recommendation since pursuit of a commission is more about the particular job you will be doing.

garhkal
07-28-2014, 07:11 AM
Here’s where sexual assaults are faulty :

To me where they are faulty is in the unequal applications of the rules. If a woman who is drunk (or has consumed alcohol) is unable to concent to sex, why is it not the same way for when a gal gets a guy drunk just so his inhibitions get lowered and his beer glasses come into play, just so SHE can get laid. And i dare anyone to say that never happens. WE all know it does, but yet it is not considered rape by many, inc most of LE.
And with a lot of work spaces i have been in, heaven forbid the guy DOES report it, as it is seen as unmanly.

Stalwart
07-28-2014, 07:51 AM
To me where they are faulty is in the unequal applications of the rules. If a woman who is drunk (or has consumed alcohol) is unable to concent to sex, why is it not the same way for when a gal gets a guy drunk just so his inhibitions get lowered and his beer glasses come into play, just so SHE can get laid. And i dare anyone to say that never happens. WE all know it does, but yet it is not considered rape by many, inc most of LE.
And with a lot of work spaces i have been in, heaven forbid the guy DOES report it, as it is seen as unmanly.

I am not a lawyer, but I would think that those instances are the same.

As far as it being considered unmanly, it is probably akin the the rape-shame that many women report.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 11:21 AM
I am not a lawyer, but I would think that those instances are the same.

As far as it being considered unmanly, it is probably akin the the rape-shame that many women report.

Let's be honest. The difference is that if a guy goes through the same situation he's willing to take a ribbing from the guys for "jumping on the grenade". He knows that even though he was drunk he was still consenting. The girl feels ashamed the next day if she does the same thing and to cover that shame she makes accusations that she couldn't consent because she didn't know what she was doing.

Are inhibitions lowered? Yes. However, unless there is some sort of date rape drug used I've never seen someone do something they don't want to do. Do they do things they might not NORMALLY do? Yes. But something they don't WANT to do? Rarely, if ever.

edit: Dislike? Really? On which part.

waveshaper2
07-28-2014, 02:30 PM
Let's be honest. The difference is that if a guy goes through the same situation he's willing to take a ribbing from the guys for "jumping on the grenade". He knows that even though he was drunk he was still consenting. The girl feels ashamed the next day if she does the same thing and to cover that shame she makes accusations that she couldn't consent because she didn't know what she was doing.

Are inhibitions lowered? Yes. However, unless there is some sort of date rape drug used I've never seen someone do something they don't want to do. Do they do things they might not NORMALLY do? Yes. But something they don't WANT to do? Rarely, if ever.

Who's taking advantage/sexual assaulting/raping who?
I'm impartial on this subject and some simple facts normally showcase who the guilty party is. The person who has consumed the most alcohol/has the highest blood alcohol content is normally the one who has been taken advantage of/sexually assaulted by the soberer sexual participant. So guys, if you drank more then the person you had sex with then you may have been sexually assaulted. I would recommend that you be the first (ASAP) to file charges against the perpetrator of this type crime. Also make sure the authorities/medical professionals follow the protocols for male rape kit, blood alcohol level, and date rape drug evidence collection. Good luck guys, you will need it.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 03:03 PM
Who's taking advantage/sexual assaulting/raping who?
I'm impartial on this subject and some simple facts normally showcase who the guilty party is. The person who has consumed the most alcohol/has the highest blood alcohol content is normally the one who has been taken advantage of/sexually assaulted by the soberer sexual participant. So guys, if you drank more then the person you had sex with then you may have been sexually assaulted. I would recommend that you be the first (ASAP) to file charges against the perpetrator of this type crime. Also make sure the authorities/medical professionals follow the protocols for male rape kit, blood alcohol level, and date rape drug evidence collection. Good luck guys, you will need it.

I just wish that if I were to get a DUI I could use the excuse "How could I possibly know what I was doing? I was drunk. I couldn't have possibly made the choice to get behind the wheel."

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 03:37 PM
Hopefully, with the more reporting and, again, hopefully with action being taken against those who are guilty it will deliver the message to others.

With a crime like sexual assault, "others" dont get the message because it is a crime committed by sociopaths. Sociopaths that believe its ok based on their up bringing and the culture that mostly hollywood has encouraged of "being sexually active" and "everyones doing it" and "you are entitled to it". Its a reflexion of our media and the culture it displays. Even with homosexuals making up roughly 2% of the population, just about every new TV show today has homosexuality in the program.

Larger punishments wont deter sexual assaults, only a change in our culture will. But I do agree with stricter punishments for these crimes. There's no reason that a rapist should get less time than a non-violent drug crime...ever.

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 03:40 PM
Actually by definition of the word assault and smacking an ass of someone of the opposite sex in an unwanted manner is sexual you have sexual assault.

It's good that you have women in your life. Now you know when they have been sexually assaulted and can justifiably rip off the arms of an offender and beat him to death with the wet ends.

Edit------ the act of touching is battery. Creating an environment of fear of a harmful or offensive contact.

Why does it have to be of the opposite sex when there could be a gay person smacking the ass of someone of the same sex? Is that over looked for the protected class? Like how minorities cant be racist?

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 04:33 PM
So let's see, Sandsjames thinks that women are just "weak" for reporting sexual assaults ... possibly he thinks they deserve it because they are weak. Airborne thinks women are "asking for it" and that only forcable rape is sexual assault. I'm not sure which one is worse.

But to be sure, they represent a real attitude. People that think this way can't be reasoned with. The best the military can do is figure out a way to just force them out because until these sort of attitudes are irradicated, sexual crimes of all types will continue.

Honestly, its called common sense. Giving "good games" to your male coworkers unless they say not to was acceptable. Giving "good games" to your female coworkers shouldnt be considered. But then that means they are being excluded. Thats why the females got them when we are all out drinking together. But that didnt mean that if they were "ok" with the "good game" that it means they are "ok" with having sex with you. Sociopaths dont consider other peoples emotions and feelings when they do something that could harm another.

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 04:38 PM
We are raising a generation of pussies. I'm not saying that bullying isn't an issue. I'm just saying that there are many things now which are called bullying that aren't. Hell, they call it bullying when someone posts something mean on someone else's facebook page. It's a generation that won't do as you say you did and stand up for themselves. And I promise that these kids will grow up to be adults who can't handle being criticized. But we'll keep telling them they are special and great and perfect.

Its what happens when the generations are growing up with only a mother. Not that all mothers are "soft", but when you dont have a father in your life because of "x" reason, you end up with kids who a coddled and taught they are "special" and no one should be able to tell them other wise. Again, its back to the media. Most disney movies are of single parented kids raised by their mother. Now more and more we are seeing an increase in single parent house holds because young adults today were raised to believe everything will be honky dory as a single parent.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 04:44 PM
Its what happens when the generations are growing up with only a mother. Not that all mothers are "soft", but when you dont have a father in your life because of "x" reason, you end up with kids who a coddled and taught they are "special" and no one should be able to tell them other wise. Again, its back to the media. Most disney movies are of single parented kids raised by their mother. Now more and more we are seeing an increase in single parent house holds because young adults today were raised to believe everything will be honky dory as a single parent.

Hence the creation of the body shaving, fingernail polishing, hair primping metrosexual.

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 04:44 PM
I wont go in to whether or not ass grabbing is sexual assault. However as far as the number of cases going up I will add my 2 cents. When you have any system that is established in which people, (mainly women) can use it to their advantage they will game the shit out of it. I also agree with the one post that states; “ if you change the freezing temperature to 36 degrees then the number of days below freezing goes up.” I for one have seen first hand the cloud that sexual assault allegations sweep over a command during my two tours in Korea. It is always disguised as the MALE being this dark sexual predator out to get his next nut. All along you have the fragile female sitting in her room practicing abstinence fresh out of the convent, attacked her first night out at the Mustang club. “ Its never the woman’s fault!!!!! “ They are some how never responsible for their actions. I have had two different troops that were accused of this during my time in and they were both found NOT guilty. Both times these women where married and separated from their spouse and just looking for a little taste of something different. This is until they get caught and have to pay the piper or have to make the WALK OF SHAME the next morning. Then it is “ I was drunk” …” I don’t know what happened” “ I would never step out on my boo.” Well I am here to tell you, they play the same bullshit games we do as males and are much better at it, until they get caught. They don’t have to face the music, because they will pull the titty power card and cry their way out of it. The real bad deal is when they are caught in the lie and still nothing happens to them. That is the true injustice. This is mainly why the real victims are never given the true amount of help they deserve and need. You see they are never held to the same standards in the military ( As males) and never will be due to all the protectionism afforded to them. You can agree or disagree but that is what I have noticed in the 18 or so years. Happy New Year and God Bless. .

Lets not forget that the numbers are going up because the women are not responsible or punished anymore if they were underage drinking and had sex. They get the underage drinking thrown to the side because leadership feels like its punishing the victim of sexual assault or blaming the victim if they were doing something wrong as well.

We dont sweep the drug charges aside when a drug dealer is robbed or shot just because they were a victim.

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 04:54 PM
I agree, the entire process should be separated from the accuser/accused chain of command.

Somewhat differently than your experience, I had the following incidents that I was aware of (at my base, not my unit):

1) SrA Male accused by A1C Female...charges dismissed for lack of evidence. (note: he did it, they just couldn't prove it) A1C female ostrasized as a "false accuser" and put up with harassment and all kinds of BS until she separated.

2) MSgt Male accused by SrA Female (his subordinate) of extoriong sex for EPR rating. MSgt Male transfered to a different unit where he didn't have any subordinates and allowed to retire 6 months later, SrA Female give a 5 and PCS'd. The whole thing was swept under the rug.

3) LtCol Male solicits SSgt Male for oral sex while overseas TDY. SSgt reports incident when he gets home, LtCol agrees to non-judicial punishment and separates. SSgt none the worse for wear.

#3 is the only time the system worked the way it was supposed to work. I don't know that false accusations are as much of a problem as lack of even-handed justice in the legal command process. Which I believe is your point? Whether the changes the Congress has mandated and the DoD are making will improve the processes or not, remains to be seen.

Sexual assault is the hardest thing to prove, no matter what Law and Order SVU shows. Without the accused admitting to the deed as non-consentual, its pretty tough thing to prove. Thats why there always needs to be the consent form presented before the act and intials for anal.

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 05:10 PM
Let's be honest. The difference is that if a guy goes through the same situation he's willing to take a ribbing from the guys for "jumping on the grenade". He knows that even though he was drunk he was still consenting. The girl feels ashamed the next day if she does the same thing and to cover that shame she makes accusations that she couldn't consent because she didn't know what she was doing.

Are inhibitions lowered? Yes. However, unless there is some sort of date rape drug used I've never seen someone do something they don't want to do. Do they do things they might not NORMALLY do? Yes. But something they don't WANT to do? Rarely, if ever.

As a person who has had a fair amount of drunk sex, back in the day, with likewise intoxicated girls I picked up one night...some of these stories of people being accused the day after had made me feel like I've been somewhat lucky and "there but for the grace of Jack Daniels, go I"

...and then one day, I remembered...I've also taken home a fair amount of drunk girls who have said "no" to sex, and I did not force the issue, slept in a separate room and acted the gentleman...which made me wonder if that was the difference between me and these guys that get accused of rape.

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 05:20 PM
I agree, the entire process should be separated from the accuser/accused chain of command.

Somewhat differently than your experience, I had the following incidents that I was aware of (at my base, not my unit):

1) SrA Male accused by A1C Female...charges dismissed for lack of evidence. (note: he did it, they just couldn't prove it) A1C female ostrasized as a "false accuser" and put up with harassment and all kinds of BS until she separated.

This is a good point that people need to remember.

Just because the accused was found NOT guilty, does not mean the accuser was lying. It simply means the charge was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 05:25 PM
Sexual assault is the hardest thing to prove, no matter what Law and Order SVU shows. Without the accused admitting to the deed as non-consentual, its pretty tough thing to prove.

Yes it is hard to actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt. A standard that, one would think, would normally include some type of physical or third party testimony to corroborate the accusers testimony.

But...I think in some of these cases, there is no evidence beyond the accusers testimony, then it's simply up to the panel to decide if she is believable or not, and there are convictions based on that alone...and I think the tendency is growing to do that more and more.

In fact, we even see "experts" stating that women very rarely make up allegations...a fact that I am not all the convinced of, personally.

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 05:36 PM
Yes it is hard to actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt. A standard that, one would think, would normally include some type of physical or third party testimony to corroborate the accusers testimony.

But...I think in some of these cases, there is no evidence beyond the accusers testimony, then it's simply up to the panel to decide if she is believable or not, and there are convictions based on that alone...and I think the tendency is growing to do that more and more.

In fact, we even see "experts" stating that women very rarely make up allegations...a fact that I am not all the convinced of, personally.

But, as it has been proven, even a sober eye witness is not that relyable anymore. Especially if the victim doesnt really know the perp. Wrong people are accused all the time and locked up solely based on eye-witness accounts of only one person. And then immagine if you are drunk and trying to make that accusation? Trying to remember if you said "no" or not.

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 05:46 PM
But, as it has been proven, even a sober eye witness is not that relyable anymore. Especially if the victim doesnt really know the perp. Wrong people are accused all the time and locked up solely based on eye-witness accounts of only one person. And then immagine if you are drunk and trying to make that accusation? Trying to remember if you said "no" or not.

I agree with you. I'm just saying, with all the bad press of letting people go, I think the juries/panels have a greater tendency to take the accusers word for it.

Not saying it's right...I think to honestly find someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, there needs to be something to corroborate the accusers testimony, IMO. And yes, it that would make it difficult to find guilty in these cases...but finding someone guilty in a court of law is supposed to be difficult.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 06:16 PM
...and then one day, I remembered...I've also taken home a fair amount of drunk girls who have said "no" to sex, and I did not force the issue, slept in a separate room and acted the gentleman...which made me wonder if that was the difference between me and these guys that get accused of rape.

Definitely...I'd never claim that having sex after girl saying no is ever NOT assault. The problem is the girls who don't say no, then say they don't remember and it is deemed that they weren't able to say no.

WILDJOKER5
07-28-2014, 06:19 PM
Definitely...I'd never claim that having sex after girl saying no is ever NOT assault. The problem is the girls who don't say no, then say they don't remember and it is deemed that they weren't able to say no.

ITs the biggest double standard around for the feminists. Equal rights and treatment, except when it comes to one nighters of drunken sex and having to put up with the shame of thinking themselves as a slut.

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 06:51 PM
ITs the biggest double standard around for the feminists. Equal rights and treatment, except when it comes to one nighters of drunken sex and having to put up with the shame of thinking themselves as a slut.

Here's the thing...voluntary intoxication is not a defense to any crime...be it DUI or rape, murder, etc. (Not 100% accurate, but for most purposes).

If the woman is accused of a crime, that she was voluntarily intoxicated would not be a defense. It is however, important as to whether or not she was capable of giving consent.

My personal opinion, if a girl is walking and talking, otherwise conscious, she is capable of giving consent...even if she "blacks out" and can't remember it the next day. My opinion is probably not consistent with the law, though. My question is always, "If you can't remember, how do you know you didn't say 'yes'?"

Anyway, so the guy's level of intoxication doesn't matter, because it is not a defense anyway. The woman's level of intoxication does matter because it determines whether or not she was capable of giving consent, or manifesting and communicating a lack of consent. IIRC, if a victim is capable of giving a "no, stop"...then that is required to find the accused guilty. Only when she in unable to manifest lack of consent (passed out), is this not required.

Chief_KO
07-28-2014, 07:41 PM
Nothing wrong with having goals but gotta be realistic too.

I totally agree. It's just when you see these 18-19 year old kids (and they truly are), it's almost an "all or nothing"; none had a fallback if (when) they don't get selected for flight training.

I think it's a prime example of the AF's "If you ain't flightcrew, you really are $shit" (IYAFCYRAS) attitude. My experience working with the other services, I really never saw it that bad. Yes, there are "rivalries" between the various entities within a Service; but nothing like the "Aircrew" and "all others" attitude I saw (see) in the AF.

Every once in a while a prior Enlisted Cadet would be in the seminar, and man...what a difference. That was what I was expecting (falsely) from every Cadet.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 07:48 PM
Here's the thing...voluntary intoxication is not a defense to any crime...be it DUI or rape, murder, etc. (Not 100% accurate, but for most purposes).

If the woman is accused of a crime, that she was voluntarily intoxicated would not be a defense. It is however, important as to whether or not she was capable of giving consent.

My personal opinion, if a girl is walking and talking, otherwise conscious, she is capable of giving consent...even if she "blacks out" and can't remember it the next day. My opinion is probably not consistent with the law, though. My question is always, "If you can't remember, how do you know you didn't say 'yes'?"

Anyway, so the guy's level of intoxication doesn't matter, because it is not a defense anyway. The woman's level of intoxication does matter because it determines whether or not she was capable of giving consent, or manifesting and communicating a lack of consent. IIRC, if a victim is capable of giving a "no, stop"...then that is required to find the accused guilty. Only when she in unable to manifest lack of consent (passed out), is this not required.

We had a SAPR day recently. Some of the conversation let to a story by someone about how they were taken advantage of when a punch bowl at a party was spiked (with booze, not drugs). It kind of made everyone laugh for the following reasons:

1. Could the person not tell that she was starting to get a buzz?

2. Was she "slamming" punch that she thought had no alcohol in order to have it hit her that fast to where she was unable to function properly?

3. Who the fuck drinks that many cups of non-alcoholic punch at a party?

It was a silly story that pretty much discredited her entire statement.

waveshaper2
07-28-2014, 07:54 PM
Here's the thing...voluntary intoxication is not a defense to any crime...be it DUI or rape, murder, etc. (Not 100% accurate, but for most purposes).

If the woman is accused of a crime, that she was voluntarily intoxicated would not be a defense. It is however, important as to whether or not she was capable of giving consent.

My personal opinion, if a girl is walking and talking, otherwise conscious, she is capable of giving consent...even if she "blacks out" and can't remember it the next day. My opinion is probably not consistent with the law, though. My question is always, "If you can't remember, how do you know you didn't say 'yes'?"

Anyway, so the guy's level of intoxication doesn't matter, because it is not a defense anyway. The woman's level of intoxication does matter because it determines whether or not she was capable of giving consent, or manifesting and communicating a lack of consent. IIRC, if a victim is capable of giving a "no, stop"...then that is required to find the accused guilty. Only when she in unable to manifest lack of consent (passed out), is this not required.

Fixed it for you/a little role reversal.

The man's level of intoxication does matter because it determines whether or not he was capable of giving consent, or manifesting and communicating a lack of consent. IIRC, if a victim is capable of giving a "no, stop"...then that is required to find the accused guilty. Only when he in unable to manifest lack of consent (passed out), is this not required.


You guys can't tell me some of you haven't ran into "that girl" who does whatever she wants with your
" erectile projectile" without your consent and while you're passed out drunk. I've ran into "that girl" more than once.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 07:56 PM
You guys can't tell me some of you haven't ran into "that girl" who does whatever she wants with your
" erectile projectile" without your consent and while you're passed out drunk. I've ran into "that girl" more than once.Do you still have her phone number?

waveshaper2
07-28-2014, 08:13 PM
Do you still have her phone number?

Those incidents happened long ago, sorry I don't have a phone number.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 08:15 PM
Those incidents happened long ago, sorry I don't have a phone number.Damn! Can't remember the last time anything like that was done since the first couple years of my marriage.

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 08:19 PM
Fixed it for you/a little role reversal.

The man's level of intoxication does matter because it determines whether or not he was capable of giving consent, or manifesting and communicating a lack of consent. IIRC, if a victim is capable of giving a "no, stop"...then that is required to find the accused guilty. Only when he in unable to manifest lack of consent (passed out), is this not required.

Yes...and if a male is the victim, then that would be 100% correct.

It has everything to do with who is being charged with a crime vs. who is the victim, not the gender of the person.



You guys can't tell me some of you haven't ran into "that girl" who does whatever she wants with your
" erectile projectile" without your consent and while you're passed out drunk. I've ran into "that girl" more than once.

Yes...have had this happen to me. No, I did not press any charges...was not that big of a deal to me and I was not traumatized or anything by the incident.

Chief_KO
07-28-2014, 08:26 PM
You guys can't tell me some of you haven't ran into "that girl" who does whatever she wants with your " erectile projectile" without your consent and while you're passed out drunk. I've ran into "that girl" more than once.

Were you ever TDY to mobile radar sites in Montana, Wyoming, or the Dakota's?

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 08:30 PM
Were you ever TDY to mobile radar sites in Montana, Wyoming, or the Dakota's?

Why? Do you think you may have been "that girl"? :doh2:

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 08:33 PM
We had a SAPR day recently. Some of the conversation let to a story by someone about how they were taken advantage of when a punch bowl at a party was spiked (with booze, not drugs). It kind of made everyone laugh for the following reasons:

1. Could the person not tell that she was starting to get a buzz?

2. Was she "slamming" punch that she thought had no alcohol in order to have it hit her that fast to where she was unable to function properly?

3. Who the fuck drinks that many cups of non-alcoholic punch at a party?

It was a silly story that pretty much discredited her entire statement.

I sat on a court martial panel for a alleged rape once.

The girl was a civilian, went to the club with a friend of hers...their "plan" was that they'd be "staying in the dorms"...they had no idea with who.

Met up with some people at the club, drinking/dancing, etc. The accused allegedly bought her a LOT of drinks...I think she testified to having more than 15 drinks.

They head to the dorms with a group of people, at some point she ends up alone in his room...yada yada yada, she claims he did some things that she did not consent to.

Her story had some holes in it, and things that didn't make sense...he was acquitted. For one, she claimed basically that he pulled her on top of him, and forcible undressed her while she was on top of him, holding her up with one arm while taking off her clothes with the other...and this girl was a good 260 lbs. So, that part didn't make a lot of sense.

waveshaper2
07-28-2014, 08:37 PM
Yes...and if a male is the victim, then that would be 100% correct.

It has everything to do with who is being charged with a crime vs. who is the victim, not the gender of the person.




Yes...have had this happen to me. No, I did not press any charges...was not that big of a deal to me and I was not traumatized or anything by the incident.

I agree, it was no big deal to me either but there definitely are some women out there that are bats#*t crazy. I was just trying to make a point.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 08:40 PM
...and this girl was a good 260 lbs. Been there..."done" that...

waveshaper2
07-28-2014, 08:43 PM
Were you ever TDY to mobile radar sites in Montana, Wyoming, or the Dakota's?

No, one incident happened in Florida and the other incident happened in Albuquerque ( I still think this one also involved some type of date rape drug).

Chief_KO
07-28-2014, 08:57 PM
Why? Do you think you may have been "that girl"? :doh2:

Got me on that one...good shooting, Tex!:banana:

garhkal
07-28-2014, 09:00 PM
I am not a lawyer, but I would think that those instances are the same.

As far as it being considered unmanly, it is probably akin the the rape-shame that many women report.

It should be the same. Just like having all those women only gyms/fitness centers, are by the rule of law, being sexually discriminatory. BUT to a lot of people in society and many lawyers/politicians, they are not breaking the law "cause women need their privacy".. Its willful unequal application of the law, same thing i see with rape/sexual assault laws.


Let's be honest. The difference is that if a guy goes through the same situation he's willing to take a ribbing from the guys for "jumping on the grenade". He knows that even though he was drunk he was still consenting. The girl feels ashamed the next day if she does the same thing and to cover that shame she makes accusations that she couldn't consent because she didn't know what she was doing.

SO a guy consents no matter what, unless a date rape drug is used? SJ imo its attitudes like that which is WHY we have this social mantra that 'guys always want it, so can never be raped'.



Larger punishments wont deter sexual assaults, only a change in our culture will. But I do agree with stricter punishments for these crimes. There's no reason that a rapist should get less time than a non-violent drug crime...ever.

I do find it screwed up when one state has person raping getting X years, while in state B that same guy would get Z years. IMO they should be even all across the states.


As a person who has had a fair amount of drunk sex, back in the day, with likewise intoxicated girls I picked up one night...some of these stories of people being accused the day after had made me feel like I've been somewhat lucky and "there but for the grace of Jack Daniels, go I"


Its cause of some of those horror stories that i heard of, read of (or in one instance had to go to drive the guy to court) that i DON'T do the bar hopping dating scene. Heck one story i heard, was of a guy who was nearly passed out from drink being found with the next door neighbor's DAUGHTER shagging him (she was 15), and HE is the one doing time cause of having sex with a minor. Now admittedly i don't remember hearing it mentioned on the news or seeing anything in the papers when it happened, but we all know of crimes that happen, which DON'T make it into the press..


ITs the biggest double standard around for the feminists. Equal rights and treatment, except when it comes to one nighters of drunken sex and having to put up with the shame of thinking themselves as a slut.

Damn skippy its one of the bigger double standards around.


Anyway, so the guy's level of intoxication doesn't matter, because it is not a defense anyway. The woman's level of intoxication does matter because it determines whether or not she was capable of giving consent, or manifesting and communicating a lack of consent. IIRC, if a victim is capable of giving a "no, stop"...then that is required to find the accused guilty. Only when she in unable to manifest lack of consent (passed out), is this not required.

But measure, why is it it doesn't matter how drunk a guy is, but it does for the women? That imo is encouraging the double standard.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 09:04 PM
SO a guy consents no matter what, unless a date rape drug is used? SJ imo its attitudes like that which is WHY we have this social mantra that 'guys always want it, so can never be raped'.

If a guy is THAT drunk, the majority of the time, he's not gonna be able to get it up. Of course guys can be raped. I was just pointing out that guys have less of the "morning after shame" then women do so false claims are not going to be as big of an issue.

waveshaper2
07-28-2014, 09:09 PM
[QUOTE=sandsjames;345382]Been there..."done" that...[/QUOTE

I have a story about large woman. 1981, I was TDY to Ajo Arizona for 2 months. In the small town of Ajo there was a Papago Indian bar and female Papago Indians are extremely large. One night, me and my buddy (who likes large women) hit the Papago Indian bar. The table next to us had 2 large Papago Indian girls sitting there and my buddy keep saying "over and over" come on lets go ask them to dance and of course I repeatedly said NO.. Finally my buddy said "don't worry I'll take the big one" and my response was "hell no-the small one weights 300 pounds".

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 09:12 PM
But measure, why is it it doesn't matter how drunk a guy is, but it does for the women?

That's not true.

It doesn't matter how drunk an ACCUSED is...but, it does for the VICTIM.

It just so happens that a high percentage of the time the male is the accused and the female the victim.


That imo is encouraging the double standard.

It's not really a double standard...it's two different standards based on their different roles in the judicial case. If the victim did not manifest a lack of consent, it's up to the prosecutor to prove that she was too intoxicated to do so...this is why the victims intoxication level is always such a big deal.

OTOH, it does not matter if the accused was barely conscious, it is not a defense...so this is why the accused intoxication is rarely an issue at trial. If anything it would work against him because he would be more likely to "act unreasonably" in perhaps misinterpreting a "no" signal...hence, the defense does not want to bring it up, and neither does the prosecutor.

sandsjames
07-28-2014, 09:13 PM
I have a story about large woman. 1981, I was TDY to Ajo Arizona for 2 months. In the small town of Ajo there was a Papago Indian bar and female Papago Indians are extremely large. One night, me and my buddy (who likes large women) hit the Papago Indian bar. The table next to us had 2 large Papago Indian girls sitting there and my buddy keep saying "over and over" come on lets go ask them to dance and of course I repeatedly said NO.. Finally my buddy said "don't worry I'll take the big one" and my response was "hell no-the small one weights 300 pounds".

I'm not personally attract to big women (though I don't like small either) but in my younger days there were one or two that I went home with from the club. One thing I do know is that they sure do try hard to please.

Measure Man
07-28-2014, 09:20 PM
Its cause of some of those horror stories that i heard of, read of (or in one instance had to go to drive the guy to court) that i DON'T do the bar hopping dating scene.

Probably wise...after i sat on that court martial, one bit of advice I used to give the young guys was to never sleep with a girl for the first time while she is drunk. Yeah, that knocks a lot of game off some of them...but it can be scary out there.

Fortunately, for me, I've survived that scene and now only have drunk sex with my wife.


Heck one story i heard, was of a guy who was nearly passed out from drink being found with the next door neighbor's DAUGHTER shagging him (she was 15), and HE is the one doing time cause of having sex with a minor.

Yep...having sex with a minor is what is called a strict liability crime...which means there does not even need to be intent...all they have to prove is you had sex with an actual minor. She could have lied, showed false ID...doesn't matter. You do not need to know or should have known the person is a minor for it to be a crime.

garhkal
07-29-2014, 07:12 AM
If a guy is THAT drunk, the majority of the time, he's not gonna be able to get it up. Of course guys can be raped. I was just pointing out that guys have less of the "morning after shame" then women do so false claims are not going to be as big of an issue.

And? So just cause a guy may not have an issue with it in the morning, does not mean he wasn't raped cause the gal deliberately got him drunk.



It's not really a double standard...it's two different standards based on their different roles in the judicial case. If the victim did not manifest a lack of consent, it's up to the prosecutor to prove that she was too intoxicated to do so...this is why the victims intoxication level is always such a big deal.

OTOH, it does not matter if the accused was barely conscious, it is not a defense...so this is why the accused intoxication is rarely an issue at trial. If anything it would work against him because he would be more likely to "act unreasonably" in perhaps misinterpreting a "no" signal...hence, the defense does not want to bring it up, and neither does the prosecutor.

Maybe. BUT it still grates me the wrong way to see society and the law seem to think that 2 adults, BOTH drunk, but ones a guy ones a gal, automatically see's it that the gal can't consent to sex, but a guy can.


Yep...having sex with a minor is what is called a strict liability crime...which means there does not even need to be intent...all they have to prove is you had sex with an actual minor. She could have lied, showed false ID...doesn't matter. You do not need to know or should have known the person is a minor for it to be a crime.

Tell me about it. When i was in C school out in San diego, there was a report on the local news (this iirc was back in apr-may 93 time frame) of a guy who wooed a female BAR TENDER (so by law she has to be or at least should be 21), and after work went back to her place for sex, only to be rousted by HER father. Apparently she was using a Fake ID to get the job. HE got done for statutory rape, but nothing was ever mentioned about whether she lost her job for using the fake id, OR even any punishment for having a fake id.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 11:18 AM
And? So just cause a guy may not have an issue with it in the morning, does not mean he wasn't raped cause the gal deliberately got him drunk. Deliberately got him drunk? That's crap, both ways. If a girl or a guy gets drunk, nobody "got" them drunk. They were sober when they started.

Again, rape is rape. No is no. But I don't buy that one can consent because they are "too drunk". Passed out? Yes. But too drunk? No.

WILDJOKER5
07-29-2014, 12:10 PM
Been there..."done" that...

Anyone at Kunsan with "manbearpig"? It was "known" around the entire ROK that there was a girl who would come out to the smoke pit on the weekends looking for someone drunk enough and foolish enough to follow her back to her room in the dorm. It was a joke and by far the best test of a wingman to keep his buddy away from that situation. Not a joke that it didnt happen, a joke in that if you put yourself in the situation that she could bait you back to her place that what you experienced that night was your own fault.

hustonj
07-29-2014, 01:56 PM
A few years ago, I was at the SAPR briefing, and had the briefer call me too extreme to be listened to.

The question was about responsibility and alcohol, and whether or not people should be responsible for the decisions they make while drunk.

My logic remains:

We work hard to educate our people that drinking alcohol lowers inhibitions and weakens our ability to reason.

We tell our people that they are responsible for the consequences of their decisions.

If they decide to drink, and thus lower their own ihibitions and reduce their ability to reason well, they are responsible for the consequences of that decision.

If this is not the case, then we really don't want them to be accoutnable for consequences of their decisions ro actions, so the entire UCMJ is meaningless.

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 02:02 PM
He knows that even though he was drunk he was still consenting.

I would disagree, there is a point where you are no longer making sound decisions ... it may not be right at the 'tipsy' or even 'drunk' phase, but just because you aren't blacked out doesn't mean you are in control of your decision making either.



The problem is the girls who don't say no, then say they don't remember and it is deemed that they weren't able to say no.

If they were really so drunk that they don't remember, I would fall in with the side that says they are too drunk to consent.



Sexual assault is the hardest thing to prove, no matter what Law and Order SVU shows. Without the accused admitting to the deed as non-consentual, its pretty tough thing to prove.

I would say it is harder than "pretty tough" ... and that is one of the huge issues with the problem.

This came up last year with my previous boss. I was asked if I thought that sexual assault should removed from things that can be prosecuted with Article 15 ... essentially removed from a commander's authority.

I laid out that that one of the differences with Article 15 and a Court Martial is the burden of proof. For Article 15 proceedings, a commander has to break the 'preponderance of the evidence' threshold ... or be 51% sure the accused is guilty. For a court martial the threshold is 'beyond a reasonable doubt' and the two are very different in a sexual assault case which, unless there is audio or video or an admission of guilt is so hard to prove. So while a JAG may argue that a commander will never get a court-martial conviction, as a commander, I can still use Article 15 (unless the accused requests to roll the dice) to deal with it and separate them from the service ... but I don't get the felony conviction.

At the end of the conversation, I did say that at the beginning of my time on the Hill, I would have vehemently argued against removing sexual assault from a commander's NJP authority, but that I also thought the environment was getting so tense and that the 'Monday morning quarterbacks' were looking at a decision that an O7, 8, 9 etc. made as a small unit commander, 15 or more years in the past in some cases that at that point I would just assume it not be in my authority so I won't get second guessed at some point down the road.

WILDJOKER5
07-29-2014, 02:04 PM
A few years ago, I was at the SAPR briefing, and had the briefer call me too extreme to be listened to.

The question was about responsibility and alcohol, and whether or not people should be responsible for the decisions they make while drunk.

My logic remains:

We work hard to educate our people that drinking alcohol lowers inhibitions and weakens our ability to reason.

We tell our people that they are responsible for the consequences of their decisions.

If they decide to drink, and thus lower their own ihibitions and reduce their ability to reason well, they are responsible for the consequences of that decision.

If this is not the case, then we really don't want them to be accoutnable for consequences of their decisions ro actions, so the entire UCMJ is meaningless.

Yeah, people thought I was extreme too when I told me ex wife that if she went out with friends and was "raped", that I would still consider that cheating. If we are held responsible for making a plan not to drink and drive, to have a wingman, but that plan falls apart and we drive anyways, how is it that women can not bear any responsibility for drinking and sexing if their plan falls apart?

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 02:15 PM
I would disagree, there is a point where you are no longer making sound decisions ... Except for the decision to get to that point.





If they were really so drunk that they don't remember, I would fall in with the side that says they are too drunk to consent. If you can't remember then can there possibly be any effects (assuming no STDs/Pregnancy are involved).

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 02:17 PM
Yeah, people thought I was extreme too when I told me ex wife that if she went out with friends and was "raped", that I would still consider that cheating. If we are held responsible for making a plan not to drink and drive, to have a wingman, but that plan falls apart and we drive anyways, how is it that women can not bear any responsibility for drinking and sexing if their plan falls apart?

Exactly. Not that I'm blaming the woman, but she does play a role. Doesn't make it right, just makes it true. It always confuses me with the DUI thing. If I can't be expected to make rational decisions when I'm drunk when it comes to sex then how could I possibly be expected to when I'm driving. If I get in an accident, doesn't that make me a victim?

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 02:18 PM
Except for the decision to get to that point.

True, but I will say just because you are too dumb, immature etc. to get that drunk doesn't make it okay for someone to rape you either.





If you can't remember then can there possibly be any effects (assuming no STDs/Pregnancy are involved).

Would you not care if you got that incoherent and some guy raped you?

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 02:20 PM
Exactly. Not that I'm blaming the woman, but she does play a role. Doesn't make it right, just makes it true. It always confuses me with the DUI thing. If I can't be expected to make rational decisions when I'm drunk when it comes to sex then how could I possibly be expected to when I'm driving. If I get in an accident, doesn't that make me a victim?

It doesn't in my eye, but you have a real good point. I have heard of people who drive while drunk etc. who later sue the bar for continuing to serve them after they got drunk.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 02:26 PM
True, but I will say just because you are too dumb, immature etc. to get that drunk doesn't make it okay for someone to rape you either. I'm not saying it does either. I'm just saying that 1) Making a decision while drunk is not the same as not consenting and 2)it has to play some part in the responsibility for what happens.







Would you not care if you got that incoherent and some guy raped you?I've been extremely drunk, yet never blacked out...nor have I ever forgotten moments of the prior night. Other than unonsciousnous, which I already pointed out is NOT an OK time to take advangtage of someone, I don't think drunkedness is a good excuse. And of course I wouldn't be OK if some guy raped me, or some woman, whether drunk or sober. Please get of the idea that I think rape is ok.

My wife isn't too fond of "finishing" oral sex. However, when she's drunk, she's much more likely to do so. Sometimes she will choose to drink to get to that point. Does that make it rape? I think not.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 02:27 PM
It doesn't in my eye, but you have a real good point. I have heard of people who drive while drunk etc. who later sue the bar for continuing to serve them after they got drunk.

Why doesn't it? How can they possibly make a rational decision if they are drunk?

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 03:30 PM
Why doesn't it? How can they possibly make a rational decision if they are drunk?

I meant to say "it doesn't make it right." I agree with you, I don't think if someone is drunk they can consent ...

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 03:36 PM
And? So just cause a guy may not have an issue with it in the morning, does not mean he wasn't raped cause the gal deliberately got him drunk.

Of course it doesn't...but guys have less of a tendency to report it...that's not the law's fault.


Maybe. BUT it still grates me the wrong way to see society and the law seem to think that 2 adults, BOTH drunk, but ones a guy ones a gal, automatically see's it that the gal can't consent to sex, but a guy can.

The law doesn't see it that way...if the guy were to file charges, the law would treat them the same way.

Society, maybe not so much...but, no law is going to fix that.


Tell me about it. When i was in C school out in San diego, there was a report on the local news (this iirc was back in apr-may 93 time frame) of a guy who wooed a female BAR TENDER (so by law she has to be or at least should be 21), and after work went back to her place for sex, only to be rousted by HER father. Apparently she was using a Fake ID to get the job. HE got done for statutory rape, but nothing was ever mentioned about whether she lost her job for using the fake id, OR even any punishment for having a fake id.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 03:36 PM
I agree with you, I don't think if someone is drunk they can consent ...This is by no means agreeing with me.

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 03:50 PM
This is by no means agreeing with me.


Why doesn't it? How can they possibly make a rational decision if they are drunk?

I think it is ... I don't think someone can make a rational decision if they are drunk.

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 04:11 PM
I think it is ... I don't think someone can make a rational decision if they are drunk.

Giving consent does not have to be rational.

1) IMO, if a woman says 'yes', no matter how drunk and irrational she is, it is not rape.

2) If a woman says 'no' it is.

3) If a woman is incapable of saying no...then that is rape also.

4) If a woman is capable of saying 'no', but passively allows the guy to have sex with her...that is also not rape.

Most of these cases come down to the court making a judgement whether it was #3 or #4 that happened.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 04:15 PM
I think it is ... I don't think someone can make a rational decision if they are drunk.I'm glad you sensed my sarcasm...or not...so someone choosing to call a cab after a night at the bar isn't making a rational decision? Someone NOT taking a girl home...or the girl NOT going home with the guy...isn't rational? I think people make rational decisions all the time when they're drunk.

If it's determined that rational decisions CAN'T be made while drunk then the DUI cannot be the fault of the drunk driver.

WILDJOKER5
07-29-2014, 04:34 PM
I'm glad you sensed my sarcasm...or not...so someone choosing to call a cab after a night at the bar isn't making a rational decision? Someone NOT taking a girl home...or the girl NOT going home with the guy...isn't rational? I think people make rational decisions all the time when they're drunk.

If it's determined that rational decisions CAN'T be made while drunk then the DUI cannot be the fault of the drunk driver.

I think the only way to tell for sure is to recreate the situation. Feed her drinks and have a guy hit on her to see if she would go back to his place or not.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 05:24 PM
I think the only way to tell for sure is to recreate the situation. Feed her drinks and have a guy hit on her to see if she would go back to his place or not.

Ok...here's the difference...

A guy goes out to a club. He's looking to get laid. He wants someone hot who he thinks will be worth the time. As the night goes on his standards drop. Again, he just doesn't want to go home alone. That night, or the next morning, the girl leaves (or he leaves) and it's over for him.

A girl goes out to a club. She says she's looking to get laid but, in reality, she's looking for Mr. Right. She wants it all. The good looking guy...the RomCom one night stand where everything is perfect. As the night progresses, her standards drop. The next day, once she's sober, she realizes that this was not Mr. Right. This wasn't like what she saw in the movies. The embarrassment of giving it up so easily to the wrong guy and to be looked at as a slut by her friends is too much to handle. It couldn't have been her choice...it had to be the booze.

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 05:28 PM
I'm glad you sensed my sarcasm...or not...

didn't ... sorry.


[QUOTE=sandsjames;345441]so someone choosing to call a cab after a night at the bar isn't making a rational decision? Someone NOT taking a girl home...or the girl NOT going home with the guy...isn't rational?

You are right, I worded it really bad.



I think people make rational decisions all the time when they're drunk.

You are right, people do make rational decisions, they also are (depending on the person, the level of being drunk etc.) at times unable to make one. Now, that threshold for everyone is different and isn't tied to a blood alcohol content (you may be able to handle a much higher level of drinking than I can.)

In the end, sometimes people put themselves in a bad situation. The morning after, someone may find themselves with someone who, while not remembering what they did and regretting it will shoulder everything themselves. At the same time, someone may find themselves with someone who will not, then there will be trouble.

As I said, I do think that in the cases we are describing, the victim does bear some responsibility for getting in that situation ... that said, making a bad decision should not be open season for a predator (which in many cases is what we are talking about) targeting someone who is drunk or incapacitated to the point of not being able to think properly ... a dumb decision on my part, doesn't absolve someone else of making the right decision.

It is a lot of fuzzy math and no two situations are going to be exactly the same.


If it's determined that rational decisions CAN'T be made while drunk then the DUI cannot be the fault of the drunk driver.

Again, it is an interesting point.

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 05:47 PM
I think people make rational decisions all the time when they're drunk.

I agree.


If it's determined that rational decisions CAN'T be made while drunk then the DUI cannot be the fault of the drunk driver.

Why couldn't someone be at fault for making irrational decisions?

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 05:52 PM
A girl goes out to a club. She says she's looking to get laid but, in reality, she's looking for Mr. Right. She wants it all. The good looking guy...the RomCom one night stand where everything is perfect. As the night progresses, her standards drop. The next day, once she's sober, she realizes that this was not Mr. Right. This wasn't like what she saw in the movies. The embarrassment of giving it up so easily to the wrong guy and to be looked at as a slut by her friends is too much to handle. It couldn't have been her choice...it had to be the booze.

Intercourse Remorse =/= Rape

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 05:54 PM
I agree.



Why couldn't someone be at fault for making irrational decisions?They absolutely should be. That's kind of the point I was making.

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 05:57 PM
As the night goes on his standards drop.

Go ugly early.

sandsjames
07-29-2014, 06:04 PM
Go ugly early.

Yep...that's the sure thing right there. Pick a table with 4 women and talk to the least attractive. It will do 1 of 2 things. One, it will get you the sure thing. Two, her friends will wonder why you didn't hit on them and that will make you more attractive to the better looking ones.

WILDJOKER5
07-29-2014, 06:10 PM
Yep...that's the sure thing right there. Pick a table with 4 women and talk to the least attractive. It will do 1 of 2 things. One, it will get you the sure thing. Two, her friends will wonder why you didn't hit on them and that will make you more attractive to the better looking ones.

Eh, maybe not the ugliest one. More like the one in the middle.

garhkal
07-29-2014, 09:25 PM
The law doesn't see it that way...if the guy were to file charges, the law would treat them the same way.


Would the law treat them the same? While my google fu is not pulling up any instances reported of cops laughing at men who cry rape "cause your a man you can't be raped", i do know from asking some cops that, the above would be the likely response from a lot of male cops.

And that might be why guys report it less than women do.

Measure Man
07-29-2014, 09:27 PM
Would the law treat them the same? While my google fu is not pulling up any instances reported of cops laughing at men who cry rape "cause your a man you can't be raped", i do know from asking some cops that, the above would be the likely response from a lot of male cops.

The law treats them the same...the people may not. Unless by "the law" you mean the people, as in "I"m the law in these parts"


And that might be why guys report it less than women do.

Yeah, that might be...at least part of the reason.

waveshaper2
07-31-2014, 11:40 AM
BLUF; Avoid the Danger and Tranny Zones.
This short educational video may help keep some folks out of trouble.

Hot Crazy Matrix-A man's guide to women.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKWmFWRVLlU&feature=player_detailpage#t=1

WILDJOKER5
07-31-2014, 07:41 PM
Remember, follow the 3 "D's" all the time. Dont do anyone "Dumb, different or dangerous".