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BOSS302
12-26-2013, 02:42 PM
Several on this board are guilty of canonizing the "crusty Air Force NCO". Including me.

What is the common theme when discussing the NCO of yesteryear vs today's NCOs whom many see as metrosexuals unicorns? The "crusty Air Force NCO" apparently did not shy away from using "ass chewings" as a motivational/improvement tool, was politically incorrect with no shame, had Playboys or something on their desk, smoked indoors, drank "with the guys", and would usually slap box with the Commander or First Sergeant in defense of "their guys".

Or so it is said.

Well, out of curiosity...what say you, those who have been around long enough to experience the "crusty Air Force NCO" and the "NCO of Today"? Is there even a difference that you can discern? Is it honestly that much different in the ranks? What imperfections did the "crusty Air Force NCO" have that paints a less rosy picture of the Air Force of yesteryear?

Juggs
12-26-2013, 02:55 PM
The whole culture of the AF has changed. The jr NCO has had to change with it. If you light up and airmen for being stupid you actually get in trouble for it.

SomeRandomGuy
12-26-2013, 03:01 PM
Several on this board are guilty of canonizing the "crusty Air Force NCO". Including me.

What is the common theme when discussing the NCO of yesteryear vs today's NCOs whom many see as metrosexuals unicorns? The "crusty Air Force NCO" apparently did not shy away from using "ass chewings" as a motivational/improvement tool, was politically incorrect with no shame, had Playboys or something on their desk, smoked indoors, drank "with the guys", and would usually slap box with the Commander or First Sergeant in defense of "their guys".

Or so it is said.

Well, out of curiosity...what say you, those who have been around long enough to experience the "crusty Air Force NCO" and the "NCO of Today"? Is there even a difference that you can discern? Is it honestly that much different in the ranks? What imperfections did the "crusty Air Force NCO" have that paints a less rosy picture of the Air Force of yesteryear?

I think the Crusty NCO has suffered the same fate as the "disciplinarian" football coach. Have you ever watched a football game where you se ethe coach ripping into a guy on sideline? Do you think it really does any good? Couldn't he have calmly pointed out the mistakes that were made? I think society in general is beginning to realize that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to "tear someone a new asshole". Personally, I'm glad the "crusty old NCO" is gone. The guy described above was very rarely a valuable NCO. In fact they may have hindered the growth of some younger troops becauuse they simply weren't approachable.

BOSS302
12-26-2013, 03:03 PM
The whole culture of the AF has changed. The jr NCO has had to change with it. If you light up and airmen for being stupid you actually get in trouble for it.

Okay. So in your opinion, do you believe "lighting an airman up" is more effective or less effective than paperwork? Do you believe that "lighting an airman up" in the BX parking lot for a uniform discrepancy or for general stupidity is professional?

BOSS302
12-26-2013, 03:06 PM
I think the Crusty NCO has suffered the same fate as the "disciplinarian" football coach. Have you ever watched a football game where you se ethe coach ripping into a guy on sideline? Do you think it really does any good? Couldn't he have calmly pointed out the mistakes that were made? I think society in general is beginning to realize that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to "tear someone a new asshole". Personally, I'm glad the "crusty old NCO" is gone. The guy described above was very rarely a valuable NCO. In fact they may have hindered the growth of some younger troops becauuse they simply weren't approachable.

Good point. However who is held in higher regard by the general public: the calm and collect football coach or the emotional, aggressive "ol' football coach" who "lights players up"? Nick Saban throws a tantrum on the sidelines and the comments section on Campus Union blog is full of "respect...old school..."

So, in an Air Force that tends to over-compensate for its lack of "military-ness", do you believe that the "crusty old NCO" is held in high regard still?

Juggs
12-26-2013, 03:10 PM
Okay. So in your opinion, do you believe "lighting an airman up" is more effective or less effective than paperwork? Do you believe that "lighting an airman up" in the BX parking lot for a uniform discrepancy or for general stupidity is professional?

I think there is a time and a place for everything. For example, lighting them up in the parking lot not the best approach. I always acted according to the situation. If I see an Airmen looking or acting jacked up in the parking lot I first walked over and tried to calmly and professionally when addressing the situation. Most of the time the situation was solved right there. Now if I had to yell I would. If they were MY Airmen, I'd take the you let me down and embarrassed me approach. That usually worked better.

Now as far as paperwork goes, for me. Getting smoke or yelled at had more of an impact than ANY piece of paper every did. You don't feel paperwork until its piling up. With me, by the time I was doing paperwork, things had progressed to a point where I was establishing a paper trail for later actions.

I remember being late to work without informing my boss, I spoken to the first time, then a coupe months later I was doing flutter kicks in a dive mask while somebody had a garden mouth to my face. Oh and I had to count the reps out loud. After that, I informed them even IF I thought I was going to be late.

These days if you so much as make an Airman feel uncomfortable you're the one going to talk to the boss not the out of line troop.

SomeRandomGuy
12-26-2013, 03:19 PM
Good point. However who is held in higher regard by the general public: the calm and collect football coach or the emotional, aggressive "ol' football coach" who "lights players up"? Nick Saban throws a tantrum on the sidelines and the comments section on Campus Union blog is full of "respect...old school..."

So, in an Air Force that tends to over-compensate for its lack of "military-ness", do you believe that the "crusty old NCO" is held in high regard still?

I think most NCOs would try to say they have at least a little "crusty old NCO" in them that they could pull out if they needed it. The fact is that today's military is a job. You get paid to follow the rules. There really shouldn't be a need for a whole bunch of people running around enforcing the rules. Looking back I can say that just about any time I needed corrected I already knew I was doing something wrong.

When I was a young stupid tech school Amn I used to openly break the rules in hilarious ways. We had to march from our schoolhouse to the chow hall. Since I was the ranking A1C I got to call the commands. Sometimes we would pass a cute female and I would call out "EYES....RIGHT!" or sometimes I would call PRESENT ARMS to salute an enlisted person (which technically is allowed). When I did those things I knew they were wrong and a few times some some crusty NCO would stop us and chew me out. We all thought it was hilarious (of course we waited until later to laugh). A few times I got a 341 pulled but nothing ever become of it.

The fact of it is you can be a yelling screaming crusty NCO all you want but most of the people you are correcting already know they are wrong. In fact, most repeat offenders know more about paperwork and how to rebut it than you do and they could also care less about an ass chewing. The truth is that for the few people who don't know they are wrong a casual conversation would do the same as an ass chewing. For the rest you are wasting your breath and time.

WeaponsTSGT
12-26-2013, 04:30 PM
I think most NCOs would try to say they have at least a little "crusty old NCO" in them that they could pull out if they needed it. The fact is that today's military is a job. You get paid to follow the rules. There really shouldn't be a need for a whole bunch of people running around enforcing the rules. Looking back I can say that just about any time I needed corrected I already knew I was doing something wrong.

When I was a young stupid tech school Amn I used to openly break the rules in hilarious ways. We had to march from our schoolhouse to the chow hall. Since I was the ranking A1C I got to call the commands. Sometimes we would pass a cute female and I would call out "EYES....RIGHT!" or sometimes I would call PRESENT ARMS to salute an enlisted person (which technically is allowed). When I did those things I knew they were wrong and a few times some some crusty NCO would stop us and chew me out. We all thought it was hilarious (of course we waited until later to laugh). A few times I got a 341 pulled but nothing ever become of it.

The fact of it is you can be a yelling screaming crusty NCO all you want but most of the people you are correcting already know they are wrong. In fact, most repeat offenders know more about paperwork and how to rebut it than you do and they could also care less about an ass chewing. The truth is that for the few people who don't know they are wrong a casual conversation would do the same as an ass chewing. For the rest you are wasting your breath and time.

I think the term crusty NCO is often misused. I also think paperwork in todays AF is overused, and if it's not effective then why use it so often. I've met many an NCO that immediately wants to write paperwork for the slightest of infractions, where as a good "talking to" would correct the problem. I hear often that we need a paper trail to show somebody the door, but personally think that that many behaviors can be corrected. I can tell you that in fighter maintenance that not only will you not get in trouble for chewing ass, but the expectation is that this is the first step in correcting bad habits/behavior. Lazy NCO's are also a big part of the problem, if I correct somebody, I also need to follow it up and speak to their supervisor. I'm not talking about when you correct somebody at the shopette because they didn't put their hat on quick enough, but if an Amn is really out of line you have to follow it up. I'm also a big believer in treating adults as adults. I might not inspect your dorm room once a week, but they know if they fail it's on them, and they will be held accountable. I have no problem keeping somebody for 12's to learn how to properly do whatever they are deficient in, if at that point you want to cry to legal or the CC, then and only then will you feel the ass pain of progressive paperwork. Different types of discipline works differently for different people, they should be treated as individuals, and at no time should you be challenged by those below you, and I have yet to have my superiors understand the logic of doing this.

BENDER56
12-26-2013, 05:14 PM
Okay. So in your opinion, do you believe "lighting an airman up" is more effective or less effective than paperwork? Do you believe that "lighting an airman up" in the BX parking lot for a uniform discrepancy or for general stupidity is professional?

Why are those the only two options? What you're presenting is called a false dichotomy -- offering only two choices and saying only one can be chosen. How about pulling the airman aside and explaining what he did wrong, perhaps even why it's wrong, what consequences he faces if he does it again, and what behavior you expect of him in the future? You don't have be all touchy-feely about it, nor do you have to "light him up." Just resolutely ensure he knows you won't tolerate whatever it was he did and there will be unpleasant consequences for him if he does it again. Let him know he's a valuable member of your section and you count on him to help you get the mission done and you're extremely disappointed in him.

Oh, and I suppose while you're at it you have to ensure you have the exact same expectations of all of your other airmen and enforce the rules equally.

For airmen who fail to get the message, you simply carry through with the promised consequences. Don't ever forget that punishment isn't just for the airmen who break the rules. An important reason to punish rule-breakers is also as a justification to our good airmen for following the rules. Nothing ruins the morale of your conscientious, good airmen more than to see the rule-breakers get away with it. If at this point you want to "light up" the airman, go ahead if that's your style. But at the same time start the paperwork trail. Again, it's not an either/or -- you can do both.

I came in in '84, and outside of BMT I never once encountered a "crusty NCO." Of course, that might be because I was in the medical corps for my first 14 years and because I wasn't a troublemaker.

OtisRNeedleman
12-26-2013, 06:27 PM
Throughout my active duty time I felt blessed to be around the "crusty NCOs", both male and female, albeit not quite as crusty as BOSS302 has described. My "crusty NCOs" were walking bullshit detectors, knew their stuff cold, always stood for what was right, refused to be intimidated by anyone, and never shied away from correcting anyone, regardless of rank. I learned a lot from those "crusty NCOs". When I REALLY needed to get the straight story I sought out the "crusty NCOs". When I didn't know something or I needed assistance I sought out the "crusty NCOs". The "crusty NCOs" were a vital part of the Adult Air Force (AAF). Today's AF undoubtedly still has some outright "crusty NCOs", but today's environment has forced many potential "crusty NCOs" to be very judicious in their crustiness.

Drackore
12-26-2013, 07:57 PM
I am going to sit back and watch this thread develop, but I will chime in with three words for the meantime:

time, place, circumstance

BOSS302
12-26-2013, 08:00 PM
Why are those the only two options? What you're presenting is called a false dichotomy -- offering only two choices and saying only one can be chosen.

My thread. Go make your own thread with as many choices as you want. :)

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-26-2013, 08:18 PM
Let's first define a crusty s/nco...

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-26-2013, 08:56 PM
I know one thing, the crusty old NCO wouldn't care about proper grammar, such as properly placing commas and periods inside of quotation marks, or knowing when to use apostrophes.

It's the difference between knowing your "shit," and knowing you're "shit."

Big Blue
12-26-2013, 09:07 PM
Throughout my active duty time I felt blessed to be around the "crusty NCOs", both male and female, albeit not quite as crusty as BOSS302 has described. My "crusty NCOs" were walking bullshit detectors, knew their stuff cold, always stood for what was right, refused to be intimidated by anyone, and never shied away from correcting anyone, regardless of rank. I learned a lot from those "crusty NCOs". When I REALLY needed to get the straight story I sought out the "crusty NCOs". When I didn't know something or I needed assistance I sought out the "crusty NCOs". The "crusty NCOs" were a vital part of the Adult Air Force (AAF). Today's AF undoubtedly still has some outright "crusty NCOs", but today's environment has forced many potential "crusty NCOs" to be very judicious in their crustiness.

Think you are spot on with "today's environment has forced many potential "crusty NCOs" to be very judicious in their crustiness." We are in very different climate than 20 yrs ago...as a leader/supervisor you had better have your ducks in a row and be able to defend your position if today's "Amn" gets their feelings hurt. The table gets turned and the focus shifts from that individuals behavior and what they did and how YOU handled it. We are too PC and hands are tied to an extent to be able to be crusty these days. I do shake my head at times and wonder if that will be the straw for me to punch one day. I recall when the crusty Sgts would get in to people back then there was 9 times out of 10 no rebuttals either verbally or written because they KNEW they were in the wrong. Too many folks walking by things like it's not their job to correct deficiencies. It's OUR AF!

BOSS302
12-26-2013, 09:18 PM
I know one thing, the crusty old NCO wouldn't care about proper grammar, such as properly placing commas and periods inside of quotation marks, or knowing when to use apostrophes.

It's the difference between knowing your "shit," and knowing you're "shit."

Nice comma splice.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-26-2013, 09:22 PM
Nice comma splice.

Natural pauses when I speak.

fog
12-27-2013, 02:27 AM
Dad was Army 1944 to 1964, I served 1982 to 2011. We were both NCOs. We both protected a democracy but it wasn't practiced at his home. He was the Boss and it was understood. He grew up on a farm in South Dakota and used World War II as a way to better himself. I like what Drackore said "Time, Place and Circumstance". My Dad would yell at the most mundane thing, the patience of Job at a difficult time, and then switch it out. We could never understand it at the time. I spent nine years as a first sergeant and three tours as a command chief and felt yelling did little to improve the situation. However, sometimes it was necessary. However, it was usually, and I'm not too proud to admit, to make ME feel better. Realistically, it probably didn't do much but correct it at the time, and long term had no effect. Guess what I'm trying to say, crustiness had to do with getting the job done, correcting and teaching right behavior in the right manner and a willingness to stand up for your Airmen, for what is right, and not giving a shit of the repercussions of your career.

Chief_KO
12-27-2013, 12:07 PM
A cigar chomping, expletive flowing, coffee swilling (on duty), beer guzzling (off duty), skirt chasing, street-smart, older man would be the prototypical "crusty" NCO/SNCO in a Hollywood movie (Gunny Highway comes to mind). But that is more of a caricature that would be effective in limited situations (IMO).

I would define a "crusty" NCO/SNCO as one who makes a decision, acts upon it and informs his/her chain of command of what they did and why; a "soft" NCO/SNCO sits on his/her behind and waits for the chain of command to tell them what to do. "Crusty" steps in when necessary to assist his/her Airmen when base agencies fail to perform; "Softy" says "that sucks, go see the Shirt". "Crusty" knows his/her job inside and out and trains his/her Airmen likewise. "Crusty" sees a problem and fixes it. "Crusty" makes the workcenter a fun & productive place; "Softy" fosters a workplace lacking in trust (up/down/laterally). "Crusty" establishes his/her standards, enforces AF standards and holds everyone accountable; "Softy" has no standards & selectively enforces AF standards by favoritism or on a whim.

"Crusty" still exists, just that he/she might not look, act, or sound like Clint Eastwood.

BOSS302
12-27-2013, 01:32 PM
A cigar chomping, expletive flowing, coffee swilling (on duty), beer guzzling (off duty), skirt chasing, street-smart, older man would be the prototypical "crusty" NCO/SNCO in a Hollywood movie (Gunny Highway comes to mind). But that is more of a caricature that would be effective in limited situations (IMO).

I would define a "crusty" NCO/SNCO as one who makes a decision, acts upon it and informs his/her chain of command of what they did and why; a "soft" NCO/SNCO sits on his/her behind and waits for the chain of command to tell them what to do. "Crusty" steps in when necessary to assist his/her Airmen when base agencies fail to perform; "Softy" says "that sucks, go see the Shirt". "Crusty" knows his/her job inside and out and trains his/her Airmen likewise. "Crusty" sees a problem and fixes it. "Crusty" makes the workcenter a fun & productive place; "Softy" fosters a workplace lacking in trust (up/down/laterally). "Crusty" establishes his/her standards, enforces AF standards and holds everyone accountable; "Softy" has no standards & selectively enforces AF standards by favoritism or on a whim.

"Crusty" still exists, just that he/she might not look, act, or sound like Clint Eastwood.

Ding ding ding. Winner...Chief KO with a "knock out" response. I was waiting for someone to say those exact words..."caricature."

Stalwart
12-27-2013, 02:32 PM
A cigar chomping, expletive flowing, coffee swilling (on duty), beer guzzling (off duty), skirt chasing, street-smart, older man would be the prototypical "crusty" NCO/SNCO in a Hollywood movie (Gunny Highway comes to mind). But that is more of a caricature that would be effective in limited situations (IMO).

I had a few Marine SNCOs that had been in since the late 60's / early 70's when I first joined ... none were really the expletive flowing GySgt Highway type. They were crusty for sure, but you hit the nail on the head.

LogDog
12-27-2013, 05:27 PM
A cigar chomping, expletive flowing, coffee swilling (on duty), beer guzzling (off duty), skirt chasing, street-smart, older man would be the prototypical "crusty" NCO/SNCO in a Hollywood movie (Gunny Highway comes to mind). But that is more of a caricature that would be effective in limited situations (IMO).

I would define a "crusty" NCO/SNCO as one who makes a decision, acts upon it and informs his/her chain of command of what they did and why; a "soft" NCO/SNCO sits on his/her behind and waits for the chain of command to tell them what to do. "Crusty" steps in when necessary to assist his/her Airmen when base agencies fail to perform; "Softy" says "that sucks, go see the Shirt". "Crusty" knows his/her job inside and out and trains his/her Airmen likewise. "Crusty" sees a problem and fixes it. "Crusty" makes the workcenter a fun & productive place; "Softy" fosters a workplace lacking in trust (up/down/laterally). "Crusty" establishes his/her standards, enforces AF standards and holds everyone accountable; "Softy" has no standards & selectively enforces AF standards by favoritism or on a whim.

"Crusty" still exists, just that he/she might not look, act, or sound like Clint Eastwood.
So essentially you're saying the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is one who does his job (skill as well as supervisory/management) and a "soft" NCO/SNCO is one who does what he is told? This would mean the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is a leader while the "soft" NCO/SNCO is a follower.

As you said, the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is a caricature and is limited in his effectiveness is limited. What comes to mind with the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is someone who yells or thinks "wall-to-wall" counseling is an effective management tool. I've know a number of NOCs/SNCOs who would come close to this definition and I'd agree they were limited on their effectiveness. The most effective NCOs/SNCOs were the ones who took care of their people and the mission, welcomed open communications at all levels, and ensured when they made a decision everyone knew discussion was over and to implement the decision not out of fear but from respect. In short, they earned the respect and loyalty of his people.

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-27-2013, 05:50 PM
"wall-to-wall" counseling is an urban legend. I'm sure there are some isolated incidents, but it was never commonplace.

OtisRNeedleman
12-27-2013, 07:12 PM
"wall-to-wall" counseling is an urban legend. I'm sure there are some isolated incidents, but it was never commonplace.

Agree. Never saw it myself. I remember one of my TIs in basic training holding up an ink pen and saying he could cause us far more trouble with the ink pen than he could physically. Same applies throughout the AF. There were a couple of times that it would have been nice to kick a miscreant in the ass, but using the system hurt them far worse.

There's a flip side to this. Not all militaries go the paper route. Some undoubtedly make use of the kick in the ass, and worse. Remember talking with a former South Korean officer. He said he'd just smack misbehavers. Asked him why. He said, "A paper trail would follow them through life."

Gonzo432
12-27-2013, 08:29 PM
Another term pretty close to crusty would be "old-school". A crusty SNCO could be an old-school SNCO who never smiles. Both crusty and old-school know their stuff and expect everyone to live up to standards. Thinking back the Vietnam-era SNCOs I worked for as a young troop were pretty crusty. The crusty ones from my era were more mission focused than most and would ruffle feathers in the process of getting the job done. I only remember being called crusty once, although I was called old-school many times.

LogDog
12-27-2013, 10:19 PM
"wall-to-wall" counseling is an urban legend. I'm sure there are some isolated incidents, but it was never commonplace.
"Wall-to-wall" counseling is part of the caricature that Chief_KO wrote about.

LogDog
12-27-2013, 10:20 PM
"wall-to-wall" counseling is an urban legend. I'm sure there are some isolated incidents, but it was never commonplace.
"Wall-to-wall" counseling is part of the caricature that Chief_KO wrote about.

LogDog
12-27-2013, 10:25 PM
Another term pretty close to crusty would be "old-school". A crusty SNCO could be an old-school SNCO who never smiles. Both crusty and old-school know their stuff and expect everyone to live up to standards. Thinking back the Vietnam-era SNCOs I worked for as a young troop were pretty crusty. The crusty ones from my era were more mission focused than most and would ruffle feathers in the process of getting the job done. I only remember being called crusty once, although I was called old-school many times.
The "old school" were stuck in the past and didn't understand the nuts-and-bolts of what their people had to do or how the troops got the job done. They barked the orders and expected it to be done. When called to explain something intricate to their commander they had to be briefed by their people and then they had to have one with him to further explain if the commander asked too many questions.

Chief_KO
12-27-2013, 10:52 PM
So essentially you're saying the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is one who does his job (skill as well as supervisory/management) and a "soft" NCO/SNCO is one who does what he is told? This would mean the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is a leader while the "soft" NCO/SNCO is a follower.

As you said, the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is a caricature and is limited in his effectiveness is limited. What comes to mind with the "Crusty" NCO/SNCO is someone who yells or thinks "wall-to-wall" counseling is an effective management tool. I've know a number of NOCs/SNCOs who would come close to this definition and I'd agree they were limited on their effectiveness. The most effective NCOs/SNCOs were the ones who took care of their people and the mission, welcomed open communications at all levels, and ensured when they made a decision everyone knew discussion was over and to implement the decision not out of fear but from respect. In short, they earned the respect and loyalty of his people.

Yep! I thought some more about Gunny Highway as I was doing some home improvement today...He took care of his Marines (the one with an infant who lived in the trailer park), he made mundane training fun (different t-shirts each day...if the platoon was different, off came their shirts), he KNEW what the job was...took the initiative and trained his Marines (to include his Lt) correctly, and he earned their respect. To top if all, he did this without the direct support of his commander.

One other point from the movie...his character did not "play politics." In real life, too many NCOs, SNCOs & Officers) try to use their status, prior bosses/connections, etc. to leverage assignments, promotions, decorations, performance reports, etc. rather than let their performance and actions tell the story. The war scene on Grenada, when the O-6 arrived and recognized Highway...that is how it's supposed to be. Too often folks run up to the senior member like they have a school-girl crush and start right in on the brown-nosing.

Gonzo432
12-28-2013, 01:21 AM
The "old school" were stuck in the past and didn't understand the nuts-and-bolts of what their people had to do or how the troops got the job done. They barked the orders and expected it to be done. When called to explain something intricate to their commander they had to be briefed by their people and then they had to have one with him to further explain if the commander asked too many questions.

No. You've described someone who is not only incompetent but is also insecure in their own abilities for good reason. They hide behind their rank and discourage those they view as a threat because the abilities of these poeple far surpass those they have. The AF had its share of these individuals and I'm sure still does. This kind of individual is far from old-school and should never be confused from those who are old-school.

Rusty Jones
12-29-2013, 05:48 PM
The military is a direct reflection of society. Men, in general, were far different in past decades than today. Most men today, for example, don't even know how to change the oil in their own car. Whereas, men from the Baby Boomer generation and earlier could fix ANYTHING. Things like that, among other things, were part of being a man.

Manhood is a lost "art." It's gotten lost over the decades, because the concept of "gender roles" became villified, and what constituted what a "man" was... was now being challenged. Decades ago, men didn't cry. Now, "real men" are sensitive and aren't afraid to show their feelings. Generation X and beyond... are generations of men raised by women, with the increase of households led by single mothers. Single mothers who are raising their sons to be the boyfriends they dreamed about having, but would never actually date.

Since my early adulthood, I've been seeking out and making efforts to "reclaim" alot of these things. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I do all of my own car repairs that do not require the engine to be pulled (and the only reason for that, is because I don't have a garage where I can use an engine crank - otherwise, I'd be more than willing to do it). I'm also a tobacco pipe smoker - something that men from my generation have only seen our grandfathers do.

Anyhow, that's my take on why things are the way they are today.

Juggs
12-29-2013, 05:51 PM
The military is a direct reflection of society. Men, in general, were far different in past decades than today. Most men today, for example, don't even know how to change the oil in their own car. Whereas, men from the Baby Boomer generation and earlier could fix ANYTHING. Things like that, among other things, were part of being a man.

Manhood is a lost "art." It's gotten lost over the decades, because the concept of "gender roles" became villified, and what constituted what a "man" was... was now being challenged. Decades ago, men didn't cry. Now, "real men" are sensitive and aren't afraid to show their feelings. Generation X and beyond... are generations of men raised by women, with the increase of households led by single mothers. Single mothers who are raising their sons to be the boyfriends they dreamed about having, but would never actually date.

Since my early adulthood, I've been seeking out and making efforts to "reclaim" alot of these things. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I do all of my own car repairs that do not require the engine to be pulled (and the only reason for that, is because I don't have a garage where I can use an engine crank - otherwise, I'd be more than willing to do it). I'm also a tobacco pipe smoker - something that men from my generation have only seen our grandfathers do.

Anyhow, that's my take on why things are the way they are today.

Nowadays, men pluck eyebrows, go tanning, shave thier arms. If I did that, that would take up most of my day. I'm a hairy beast.

Being born in 82 I am a generation X kid. However, I was raised very blue collar. I went to work with my dad now and then building houses. He helped me work on my car in the driveway. I was driving tractors and dump trucks on the farm at 14.

I do see a definite split in my generation though. Even when I was in and an NCO I saw a difference between how I was treated as an Airman and how our Airman today are treated. Some for better, some for worse.

Shaved bodies, skinny jeans, more make up for guys than girls. I know I'm raising my son right when. He is more into digging ditches, learning about fixing our lawn mower, and doing yard work than playing with dolls.

However, we shall see what his peers bring him to.

Gonzo432
12-29-2013, 07:15 PM
Nowadays, men pluck eyebrows, go tanning, shave thier arms. If I did that, that would take up most of my day. I'm a hairy beast.

Being born in 82 I am a generation X kid. However, I was raised very blue collar. I went to work with my dad now and then building houses. He helped me work on my car in the driveway. I was driving tractors and dump trucks on the farm at 14.

I do see a definite split in my generation though. Even when I was in and an NCO I saw a difference between how I was treated as an Airman and how our Airman today are treated. Some for better, some for worse.

Shaved bodies, skinny jeans, more make up for guys than girls. I know I'm raising my son right when. He is more into digging ditches, learning about fixing our lawn mower, and doing yard work than playing with dolls.

However, we shall see what his peers bring him to.

I don't even know what to say. I'll just shake my head.

Rusty Jones
12-29-2013, 07:31 PM
I don't even know what to say. I'll just shake my head.

Today, mens' behavior is dictated by what they think will get the girl. Worst of all, men take their advice from women instead of taking it from where they SHOULD be taking it - from experienced men who are successful with women.

Juggs
12-29-2013, 07:45 PM
Today, mens' behavior is dictated by what they think will get the girl. Worst of all, men take their advice from women instead of taking it from where they SHOULD be taking it - from experienced men who are successful with women.

I hate to say Raj, but you're exactly right.

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-29-2013, 08:08 PM
Today, mens' behavior is dictated by what they think will get the girl.

That's how it always has been, and always will.

Juggs
12-29-2013, 08:15 PM
That's how it always has been, and always will.

However, women these days don't want men. They want females with a penis.

Airborne
12-29-2013, 09:56 PM
Nowadays, men pluck eyebrows, go tanning, shave thier arms. If I did that, that would take up most of my day. I'm a hairy beast.

Being born in 82 I am a generation X kid. However, I was raised very blue collar. I went to work with my dad now and then building houses. He helped me work on my car in the driveway. I was driving tractors and dump trucks on the farm at 14.

I do see a definite split in my generation though. Even when I was in and an NCO I saw a difference between how I was treated as an Airman and how our Airman today are treated. Some for better, some for worse.

Shaved bodies, skinny jeans, more make up for guys than girls. I know I'm raising my son right when. He is more into digging ditches, learning about fixing our lawn mower, and doing yard work than playing with dolls.

However, we shall see what his peers bring him to.

Sigh...Doesnt seem that long ago, but our population is waaaay more urban now than even 30ish years ago when you were a kid. So unfortunately not everyone can grow up on a farm driving tractors being a bad ass. While I know how to change oil and do basic repairs, I found myself on youtube trying to figure out how to turn the freaking change oil light off. My two year old would have a hard time getting her hand into some of the crevices of an engine bay now the way they are designed and Id have to lift the freaking engine out just to change the freaking thermostat and it would cost $120 because it's got a computer in it. And my base doesnt have a self help garage anymore and most neighborhoods dont allow even basic car maintenance so can you really blame youngsters for not being as awesome as the generation preceding it? But then again, EVERY generation complains that the next generation is crap. So go adjust the onions on your belt and sharpen your straight razor while your wife is finishing up your bespoke suit in the other room under candle light. I'm getting off your lawn...

Juggs
12-29-2013, 10:09 PM
Sigh...Doesnt seem that long ago, but our population is waaaay more urban now than even 30ish years ago when you were a kid. So unfortunately not everyone can grow up on a farm driving tractors being a bad ass. While I know how to change oil and do basic repairs, I found myself on youtube trying to figure out how to turn the freaking change oil light off. My two year old would have a hard time getting her hand into some of the crevices of an engine bay now the way they are designed and Id have to lift the freaking engine out just to change the freaking thermostat and it would cost $120 because it's got a computer in it. And my base doesnt have a self help garage anymore and most neighborhoods dont allow even basic car maintenance so can you really blame youngsters for not being as awesome as the generation preceding it? But then again, EVERY generation complains that the next generation is crap. So go adjust the onions on your belt and sharpen your straight razor while your wife is finishing up your bespoke suit in the other room under candle light. I'm getting off your lawn...

Easy high speed. Wasnt an attack on you. You went and sought out the information while others are lazy and just don't do it.

Wow you're more butthurt than usual today.

Now you can get off my lawn pussy.

Chief_KO
12-29-2013, 10:17 PM
My own experiences & observations:
Crusty NCO fills his canteen from the "Potable Water" water buffalo; Softy NCO complains about the brand of bottled water.
Crusty NCO carries extra toilet paper in his cargo pockets; Softy NCO sews his pockets shut.
Crusty NCO knows the porta potty cleaning schedule and synchronizes his "activity" accordingly; Softy NCO forgets to look before he sits (aka. "meet the Poop Pyramid").
Crusty NCO shaves & washes his hair under the water buffalo; Softy NCO complains about his deployed location's barber shop.
Crusty NCO is happy to have a tent above his head; Softy NCO complains about the lack of AC power outlets in same tent.

Airborne
12-29-2013, 10:55 PM
Easy high speed. Wasnt an attack on you. You went and sought out the information while others are lazy and just don't do it.

Wow you're more butthurt than usual today.

Now you can get off my lawn pussy.

I didnt feel like you were attacking me, just the same shit I hear about "kids these days". When people are so quick to forget that at some point they were the "kids these days". And the kids that we think are pussies will think they are hard asses and that the subsequent generation are pussies. And then we forget that WE are are the generation that creates the pussies so it's our own fault. I subscribe to a few different forums so I forget which persona to portray on the different ones. This is my contrarian, internet tough guy one.

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-29-2013, 11:02 PM
Sigh...Doesnt seem that long ago, but our population is waaaay more urban now than even 30ish years ago when you were a kid. So unfortunately not everyone can grow up on a farm driving tractors being a bad ass. While I know how to change oil and do basic repairs, I found myself on youtube trying to figure out how to turn the freaking change oil light off. My two year old would have a hard time getting her hand into some of the crevices of an engine bay now the way they are designed and Id have to lift the freaking engine out just to change the freaking thermostat and it would cost $120 because it's got a computer in it. And my base doesnt have a self help garage anymore and most neighborhoods dont allow even basic car maintenance so can you really blame youngsters for not being as awesome as the generation preceding it? But then again, EVERY generation complains that the next generation is crap. So go adjust the onions on your belt and sharpen your straight razor while your wife is finishing up your bespoke suit in the other room under candle light. I'm getting off your lawn...

Thanks for typing the way I feel.

Juggs
12-29-2013, 11:25 PM
I didnt feel like you were attacking me, just the same shit I hear about "kids these days". When people are so quick to forget that at some point they were the "kids these days". And the kids that we think are pussies will think they are hard asses and that the subsequent generation are pussies. And then we forget that WE are are the generation that creates the pussies so it's our own fault. I subscribe to a few different forums so I forget which persona to portray on the different ones. This is my contrarian, internet tough guy one.


Where I live there are kids out playing all day getting into minor trouble, scraping knees, jumping bikes and stuff like that. I've taught my 8 yr old son to shoot a rifle, shoot a bow and to bait a hook (I give me a wide berth when he is baiting a hook). I can't teach him everything and I know that, but I hope he has the drive to go seek out the information. I don't know everything. After 10 1/2 yrs of the AF I'm now an entry level probie FF. I'm constantly asking how does this work, how does that work. I hear the bitches of "don't they teach anything in the academy anymore?", but all I can do is continue to have a thirst for the info. The problem is folks want to be spoon fed the information. I know plenty in my generation that have that problem unfortunately.

I understand the persona thing, we ran a psych patient today and I could certainly relate to her problem. Thereare days I want different ones.

DocBones
12-30-2013, 12:07 AM
Here you go, an interview with a feminist on men losing their way:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530741/Theres-no-room-MANLY-Controversial-feminist-writer-Camille-Paglia-speaks-against-loss-masculine-virtues-negative-impact-society.html

Airborne
12-30-2013, 12:40 AM
Where I live there are kids out playing all day getting into minor trouble, scraping knees, jumping bikes and stuff like that. I've taught my 8 yr old son to shoot a rifle, shoot a bow and to bait a hook (I give me a wide berth when he is baiting a hook). I can't teach him everything and I know that, but I hope he has the drive to go seek out the information. I don't know everything. After 10 1/2 yrs of the AF I'm now an entry level probie FF. I'm constantly asking how does this work, how does that work. I hear the bitches of "don't they teach anything in the academy anymore?", but all I can do is continue to have a thirst for the info. The problem is folks want to be spoon fed the information. I know plenty in my generation that have that problem unfortunately.

I understand the persona thing, we ran a psych patient today and I could certainly relate to her problem. Thereare days I want different ones.

Thats what 50 kids at most? Or you probably live in some rural paradise so maybe like 15 kids? What about the other zillion kids of the same generation that have no access to a fishing hole or where the streets are too busy to ride a bike. Does your kid know how to navigate a major metro area by public transport?

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-30-2013, 01:18 AM
Thats what 50 kids at most? Or you probably live in some rural paradise so maybe like 15 kids? What about the other zillion kids of the same generation that have no access to a fishing hole or where the streets are too busy to ride a bike. Does your kid know how to navigate a major metro area by public transport?

http://epguides.com/AndyGriffithShow/cast.jpg

Slyoldawg
12-30-2013, 01:33 AM
I suppose I am one of the old heads who served under "crusty old NCOs" at one time or another. Yet, I do not recall anyone ever being "Lighted up" in my presence. We had jobs, we did them. We had extra duty such as KP, we performed them. Once I forgot about a dental appointment I had soon after arriving at my new base, Eglin AFB, and the F/Sgt called me in and said "Failure to repair" which I had no idea what the hell he meant. I understood much better when he told me I had to cut grass around the squadron for two weeks for missing that dental appointment. No "lighting up" simply "go get a lawnmower and start cutting." I served under what I would call "Crusty old NCOs" but never received much as a "Thank You" as an "ass chewing" from any one of them. The only "lighting up" I remember in the Air Force came in Basic Training.

A few years into my second hitch I cross-trained into the Flight Engineer field and can't recall ever over hearing or seeing someone being reamed out, or "Lit up" as described here.. It was as professional in the military flying squadrons I served in as the civilian airlines I worked in for many years after retiring from the AF.

My question to you present day troops would be, do you see "lighting up" every day, or often feel it is necessary in your work center? If so it seems that would be indicative of a larger problem in that work center.

Airborne
12-30-2013, 03:18 AM
We have contractors who cut the grass and even clean the shitters. We cant make them do push ups or 8 count body builders anymore so we are stuck giving paper work to produce a paper trail because we cant kick someone out or even deny their reenlistment without a trail.

LogDog
12-30-2013, 04:42 AM
The military is a direct reflection of society. Men, in general, were far different in past decades than today. Most men today, for example, don't even know how to change the oil in their own car. Whereas, men from the Baby Boomer generation and earlier could fix ANYTHING. Things like that, among other things, were part of being a man.

Manhood is a lost "art." It's gotten lost over the decades, because the concept of "gender roles" became villified, and what constituted what a "man" was... was now being challenged. Decades ago, men didn't cry. Now, "real men" are sensitive and aren't afraid to show their feelings. Generation X and beyond... are generations of men raised by women, with the increase of households led by single mothers. Single mothers who are raising their sons to be the boyfriends they dreamed about having, but would never actually date.

Since my early adulthood, I've been seeking out and making efforts to "reclaim" alot of these things. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I do all of my own car repairs that do not require the engine to be pulled (and the only reason for that, is because I don't have a garage where I can use an engine crank - otherwise, I'd be more than willing to do it). I'm also a tobacco pipe smoker - something that men from my generation have only seen our grandfathers do.

Anyhow, that's my take on why things are the way they are today.
Each generation is different from the previous and our concepts of what "manhood" is also changes. In the 1800s a "real man" would give his woman a "good slapping" and "knock sense" into their kids. From 1900 to the early 50s, only men worked and if the wife had to work then the husband wasn't a "real man" because he couldn't provide for his family. Of course, that's all BS just like saying real men don't cry, they can fix any problem with a car, yada-yada-yada...

The fact is each male has to define what it is to be a man to themselves and not worry about trying to meet expectations of other males. Until they can be comfortable being themselves they will never realize it is your own standard that matters and others trying to get you to live up to their standard of "manhood" shows how uncomfortable they are with themselves. In other words, let each man decide for himself and hold only themselves to their standards.

Slyoldawg
12-30-2013, 05:27 AM
Each generation is different from the previous and our concepts of what "manhood" is also changes. In the 1800s a "real man" would give his woman a "good slapping" and "knock sense" into their kids. From 1900 to the early 50s, only men worked and if the wife had to work then the husband wasn't a "real man" because he couldn't provide for his family. Of course, that's all BS just like saying real men don't cry, they can fix any problem with a car, yada-yada-yada...

The fact is each male has to define what it is to be a man to themselves and not worry about trying to meet expectations of other males. Until they can be comfortable being themselves they will never realize it is your own standard that matters and others trying to get you to live up to their standard of "manhood" shows how uncomfortable they are with themselves. In other words, let each man decide for himself and hold only themselves to their standards.


To do that he'd have to quit watching commercials on TV. Commercials show how they wish men would be. I cringe and change channels when commercials come on TV anymore. Or I record what I want to watch and zip through the commercials.

imnohero
12-30-2013, 12:02 PM
The military is a direct reflection of society. Men, in general, were far different in past decades than today. Most men today, for example, don't even know how to change the oil in their own car. Whereas, men from the Baby Boomer generation and earlier could fix ANYTHING. Things like that, among other things, were part of being a man.

Manhood is a lost "art." It's gotten lost over the decades, because the concept of "gender roles" became villified, and what constituted what a "man" was... was now being challenged. Decades ago, men didn't cry. Now, "real men" are sensitive and aren't afraid to show their feelings. Generation X and beyond... are generations of men raised by women, with the increase of households led by single mothers. Single mothers who are raising their sons to be the boyfriends they dreamed about having, but would never actually date.

Since my early adulthood, I've been seeking out and making efforts to "reclaim" alot of these things. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I do all of my own car repairs that do not require the engine to be pulled (and the only reason for that, is because I don't have a garage where I can use an engine crank - otherwise, I'd be more than willing to do it). I'm also a tobacco pipe smoker - something that men from my generation have only seen our grandfathers do.

Anyhow, that's my take on why things are the way they are today.

Rusty, while I agree that there are generational changes...I'm not so sure that a particular set of skills is defining of "manhood." I'm a Gen-X kid...in my family/culture being a man included being able to pour concrete, plumbing, woodwork and hunting but didn't include working on cars. I guess my point is that at an individual level "manhood" is defined by the childhood environment and what examples of men children see. Which goes to your statement about boys being raised by single mothers.

The decline of the "Crusty NCO" as reflection of society? I'm not so sure. The NCO's early in my career (late 80's) that we refered to as "crusty" were cynical, intolerant, drank too much, were great at their jobs but terrible at everything else and tended to yell for no particular reason. One of two of those guys seem to be around at every unit I was in. Except for the drinking part, I was one at the end of my career. In my experience, by the time your old enough to be "crusty", you've stopped being defined by societal expectation and are doing your own thing.

Rusty Jones
12-30-2013, 01:28 PM
Sigh...Doesnt seem that long ago, but our population is waaaay more urban now than even 30ish years ago when you were a kid.

Which is something that isn't relevant. Yes, we're undergoing a period of "reurbanization" - a reverse of the "suburbanization" that took place after WWII. HOWEVER... these men in the suburbs immediately after the war tended to have grown up in urban environments, and still had more masculine traits than most men today.


So unfortunately not everyone can grow up on a farm driving tractors being a bad ass. While I know how to change oil and do basic repairs, I found myself on youtube trying to figure out how to turn the freaking change oil light off.

I don't think anyone has problem with you looking up how to do car repairs on youtube. That's actually commendable. I did it myself two weeks ago when I had to replace the tie rods a lower control arm on my car. In fact, youtube and other websites is where I learned how to do most of the repairs myself. None of us were born knowing how to do auto repairs. We've gotta learn from somewhere.


I didnt feel like you were attacking me, just the same shit I hear about "kids these days". When people are so quick to forget that at some point they were the "kids these days". And the kids that we think are pussies will think they are hard asses and that the subsequent generation are pussies. And then we forget that WE are are the generation that creates the pussies so it's our own fault. I subscribe to a few different forums so I forget which persona to portray on the different ones. This is my contrarian, internet tough guy one.

I don't think that it's really "we" as men who are doing this. There's been a sharp increase in households being led by single mothers - and you also have to remember that 70% of all divorces are filed by women. This isn't me trying to point fingers; but I'm saying that there's a variety of factors to be considered here, and that it might be a mistake to resort to a blame game.


Each generation is different from the previous and our concepts of what "manhood" is also changes. In the 1800s a "real man" would give his woman a "good slapping" and "knock sense" into their kids. From 1900 to the early 50s, only men worked and if the wife had to work then the husband wasn't a "real man" because he couldn't provide for his family.

Well... laws are laws, and we're required to obey them... so that much, I'm not concerned with. Also, minimum wage in late the 1960's - depending on whatever index you go by - would be somewhere between $15 to $22 an hour if it kept pace with inflation. That said, there are outside factors at play with women having to work these days. Long gone are the days where, upon graduating from high school, you got a job at the local steel mill, married your high school sweetheart, bought a house and a new car, while your wife stayed at home. It can't be done in 2013.


Of course, that's all BS just like saying real men don't cry, they can fix any problem with a car, yada-yada-yada...

The fact is each male has to define what it is to be a man to themselves and not worry about trying to meet expectations of other males. Until they can be comfortable being themselves they will never realize it is your own standard that matters and others trying to get you to live up to their standard of "manhood" shows how uncomfortable they are with themselves. In other words, let each man decide for himself and hold only themselves to their standards.

And this is where I have to disagree. My view is unconventional in this day and age, but I do believe that there's a such thing as a healthy amount of conformity. Conforming to societal norms is part of living in civilized society. If you had to go to court, would you walk into the courtroom looking like a bag of ass? Would you eat a steak with your hands while dining at Ruth's Chris?

Also, like I said, men's behavior today is dictated by what they think will get the girl. I think that if most men actually tried doing the things that were once associated with men and masculinity, they would actually ENJOY it. Trust me, if you've never put a vehicle on jack stands, got up underneath it and did something like.... replacing starter - it's pretty fun, and that sense of accomplishment is actually pretty awesome.

Have you ever gotten into barbecuing? I don't mean grilling - I mean actual barbecuing, where you get some woodchunks and you smoke a pork butt or a beef brisket for 12 hours? Have you ever smoked tobacco from a pipe, while kicking back and reading a book?

These are some awesome things that were lost over the decades. As a man, trust me, you will enjoy these things. Again, men today ARE conforming. Conforming to what they think will get them laid.


Rusty, while I agree that there are generational changes...I'm not so sure that a particular set of skills is defining of "manhood." I'm a Gen-X kid...in my family/culture being a man included being able to pour concrete, plumbing, woodwork and hunting but didn't include working on cars. I guess my point is that at an individual level "manhood" is defined by the childhood environment and what examples of men children see. Which goes to your statement about boys being raised by single mothers.

I would say that men from our father's and grandfather's generation were more of a "jack of all trades" when it came to doing any work that involved using tools in general. Sure, you did woodwork... and I'm willing to bet that you'd have an advantage when it comes to working on cars over someone who did neither. The point is, you're not afraid to grab a bag of tools and get some shit done.

Sergeant eNYgma
12-30-2013, 04:31 PM
I think the term crusty NCO is often misused. I also think paperwork in todays AF is overused, and if it's not effective then why use it so often. I've met many an NCO that immediately wants to write paperwork for the slightest of infractions, where as a good "talking to" would correct the problem. I hear often that we need a paper trail to show somebody the door, but personally think that that many behaviors can be corrected. I can tell you that in fighter maintenance that not only will you not get in trouble for chewing ass, but the expectation is that this is the first step in correcting bad habits/behavior. Lazy NCO's are also a big part of the problem, if I correct somebody, I also need to follow it up and speak to their supervisor. I'm not talking about when you correct somebody at the shopette because they didn't put their hat on quick enough, but if an Amn is really out of line you have to follow it up. I'm also a big believer in treating adults as adults. I might not inspect your dorm room once a week, but they know if they fail it's on them, and they will be held accountable. I have no problem keeping somebody for 12's to learn how to properly do whatever they are deficient in, if at that point you want to cry to legal or the CC, then and only then will you feel the ass pain of progressive paperwork. Different types of discipline works differently for different people, they should be treated as individuals, and at no time should you be challenged by those below you, and I have yet to have my superiors understand the logic of doing this.

I can get with this, I'm the same really I don't yell like that. But people wonder why I don't chew ass. I seriously don't see the need. As was mentioned in here you want to be approachable but of course mantain the supe/troop relationship.

Juggs
12-30-2013, 04:46 PM
Thats what 50 kids at most? Or you probably live in some rural paradise so maybe like 15 kids? What about the other zillion kids of the same generation that have no access to a fishing hole or where the streets are too busy to ride a bike. Does your kid know how to navigate a major metro area by public transport?

Nope, he's 8 and shouldn't be on a bus by himself. Now would I expect him at a later age to be confident enough to ask somebody for help when it comes to navigating the city for the first time, yes.

I was using fishing and farming as examples. However, some of these kids just can't do shit. If you can do any manual stuff at least be able to bring some knowledge of something to the table other than video games or computer games.

WeaponsTSGT
12-30-2013, 05:11 PM
I don't think that it's really "we" as men who are doing this. There's been a sharp increase in households being led by single mothers - and you also have to remember that 70% of all divorces are filed by women. This isn't me trying to point fingers; but I'm saying that there's a variety of factors to be considered here, and that it might be a mistake to resort to a blame game.



And this is where I have to disagree. My view is unconventional in this day and age, but I do believe that there's a such thing as a healthy amount of conformity. Conforming to societal norms is part of living in civilized society. If you had to go to court, would you walk into the courtroom looking like a bag of ass? Would you eat a steak with your hands while dining at Ruth's Chris


Also, like I said, men's behavior today is dictated by what they think will get the girl. I think that if most men actually tried doing the things that were once associated with men and masculinity, they would actually ENJOY it. Trust me, if you've never put a vehicle on jack stands, got up underneath it and did something like.... replacing starter - it's pretty fun, and that sense of accomplishment is actually pretty awesome.






The thing that many people don't realize is that children need a strong male role model as much as a mother. Maybe the word need is a bit much, but with both parents contributing to the upbringing of a child they will be better adjusted, considering all other things are equal.


Conforming to society can differ greatly depending on where you were raised. I was raised in Alaska and Wyoming, the social norm there is that you can fix your own vehicle, are fairly competent at most trades(carpentry, plumbing, etc.), hunting and so on. Where as these aren't necessarily the norms for intercity or suburban youth. While I personally believe that these skills are far more useful than reading a bus schedule or matching $200 shoes to newest clothes, your surroundings play a big part in what you know, as does what your parents learned when they were raised. And since there are a large percentage of male children being raised in single parent female households these skills will never be learned and will not be passed on to their sons.

There are good women out there for guys that refuse to be led around by their balls, but they'll never realize it as long as play the game.

Rusty Jones
12-30-2013, 05:34 PM
There are good women out there for guys that refuse to be led around by their balls, but they'll never realize it as long as play the game.

I think that's actually what ALL [heterosexual] women want. Notice how I said that men - at least in general - behave in ways that they THINK will get them laid.

The big downside to that, is that... you've got a bunch candy asses out there who believe that they have checked off all the boxes that are required to have women flocking to them, and then they bitch and complain when their "hard work" doesn't pay off - women don't want them, because they're "nice guys" and "nice guys finish last" and all that other stuff. The problem is that guys like this actually listened to what women said they wanted, or they took their cues from a romantic comedy movie or something like that.

I think that if men would just be men, this wouldn't happen. Men need to rid of the civilian pea coats, square-toed shoes, and boot cut jeans... and adopt a rugged look. If a woman wanted something "pretty," she'd be a lesbian - but she wants masculine... so a man needs to be masculine! A man needs to add a little bass to his voice when he speaks, and walk like he owns the place wherever he is!

That's how I look at it. A man needs to be himself - a man, because that's what he his. And the women will follow. And if they don't, then at least he won't have an unrewarded work to bitch about.

Chief_KO
12-30-2013, 06:10 PM
Crusty/not-Crusty quiz:
A while back I ran my AFSC's schoolhouse at Keesler. We had just rebuilt the entire course, with all new equipment, furniture, classrooms, etc. Got three scenarios:

1. Class submitted a block critique, complaining that the new chairs (padded office style: $90 each) did not have adjustable arms & the multiple reclining options ($450 each). Upon receiving their critique I went to the class to provide the managment response (as I always did if warranted). I told them to wheel their chairs out of the room into the hallway, then return to class. I returned to my office. After about 20 minutes the class leader reported to the office to ask when/where to get chairs. I told him that there were brand new chairs (less than 2 months old) that his class did not think were appropriate, so hence they would not have any chairs throughout the remainder of the course (they were in block 3 of 11) since all the chairs were the same, and he was released to return to class. About 10 mins later he returned to apologize and ask if the class could use the chairs that were provided. I said yes, then proceeded to follow him back to class where I spent 5 minutes educating the entire class on budgets and how it was more important to put money into equipment, books, etc. than overly comfortable (and expensive) chairs. Would this be an example of Crusty or not-Crusty?

2. Similar story, same locale. Student who had low GPAs or a low block test score were placed on academic probation (AP) and had to remain at the schoolhouse for an additional hour each day for studying. I had to put together a room suitable...so, I purchased the metal folding chairs with the writing surface. Got critiques that the chairs were not comfortable. My answer was "why are you in AP? If you get your dumba$$ together and raise your grades you won't be in there." Worked everytime. C or not-C?

3. The course ended with a comprehensive lab that required the students to build, then maintain a computer network. It was briefed early on that if you don't pass the labs & written test you will be washed back. Nothing like telling Amn Snuffy on graduation day that he gets to stick around for another 3 weeks cause he failed the written test (which by design was the easiest test in the course), even better when you told an entire lab team they get some more Keesler time since they could not work together to complete the labs successfully. C or not-C?

LogDog
12-30-2013, 08:05 PM
Well... laws are laws, and we're required to obey them... so that much, I'm not concerned with. Also, minimum wage in late the 1960's - depending on whatever index you go by - would be somewhere between $15 to $22 an hour if it kept pace with inflation. That said, there are outside factors at play with women having to work these days. Long gone are the days where, upon graduating from high school, you got a job at the local steel mill, married your high school sweetheart, bought a house and a new car, while your wife stayed at home. It can't be done in 2013.
So you agree that the definition of "manhood" changed because of how society views him as a provider.


And this is where I have to disagree. My view is unconventional in this day and age, but I do believe that there's a such thing as a healthy amount of conformity. Conforming to societal norms is part of living in civilized society. If you had to go to court, would you walk into the courtroom looking like a bag of ass? Would you eat a steak with your hands while dining at Ruth's Chris?
In everything there is an amount of conformity. The point I was making was in term as to how a male should look at himself in regards to his "manhood." The way you dress for court or how good your table manners are aren't part of that identity for "manhood" because these are societal norms and they do not determine whether he is a "man."


Also, like I said, men's behavior today is dictated by what they think will get the girl. I think that if most men actually tried doing the things that were once associated with men and masculinity, they would actually ENJOY it. Trust me, if you've never put a vehicle on jack stands, got up underneath it and did something like.... replacing starter - it's pretty fun, and that sense of accomplishment is actually pretty awesome.
So how do you equate this view of men's behavior (manhood) if they are happily married or if they are in the 70s or 80s and know they're not going to "get the girl?" Is he any less a man because he can't get the girl but get under a vehicle and fix it? You don't have to get under a vehicle and fix something to get a sense of accomplishment. There are literally thousands of things people can do to achieve that. Where satisfaction comes from is doing and accomplishing something and if it is something that push you beyond what you thought you could do then all the better.


Have you ever gotten into barbecuing? I don't mean grilling - I mean actual barbecuing, where you get some woodchunks and you smoke a pork butt or a beef brisket for 12 hours? Have you ever smoked tobacco from a pipe, while kicking back and reading a book?

These are some awesome things that were lost over the decades. As a man, trust me, you will enjoy these things. Again, men today ARE conforming. Conforming to what they think will get them laid.
Now barbecuing and smoking a pipe defines your manhood? I do a lot of reading (87 books this year) but I don't smoke and reading and/or smoking in no way adds or detracts from my manhood. The problem I have with your comment is that you are defining "manhood" for everyone else instead of say this is what "manhood" is to you.


I would say that men from our father's and grandfather's generation were more of a "jack of all trades" when it came to doing any work that involved using tools in general. Sure, you did woodwork... and I'm willing to bet that you'd have an advantage when it comes to working on cars over someone who did neither. The point is, you're not afraid to grab a bag of tools and get some shit done.
I'm probably much older than you so from my perspective I would agree that our fathers and grandfathers were more of a "jack of all trades." But back then, cars and other technology were simpler to fix. Today, cars have a number of computers in them and the backyard mechanic doesn't have the tools or equipment needed to make the repairs correctly. I remember in the early 80s my father , who was in his late 60s, working on his cars doing tune-up, brakes, and even replacing a timing belt. When he got a newer car he wouldn't work on it because it had too technical for him.

As for men today not being able to do what our fathers and grandfathers could do isn't totally correct. I know many men, who probably wouldn't meet your standards of "manhood," who do their own home repairs from simple things like replacing outlets to laying tile floors to complete bathroom makeovers to patios and decks and these guys live in densely populated suburbs.

BOSS302
12-30-2013, 08:45 PM
I think that if men would just be men, this wouldn't happen. Men need to rid of the civilian pea coats, square-toed shoes, and boot cut jeans... and adopt a rugged look. If a woman wanted something "pretty," she'd be a lesbian - but she wants masculine... so a man needs to be masculine! A man needs to add a little bass to his voice when he speaks, and walk like he owns the place wherever he is!


I was on board with you, but now you just sound silly. You're beginning to sound like a caricature, and I really do believe you are simply trolling. If your "manliness" is defined by how much flannel you're wearing, or whether your coat is from Express or Carhart, then you're already a failure. If your manliness is determined by whether your shoes are presentable or if they are more suited for chopping firewood/smelting arrowheads, then you're already a failure.

You're just as bad as the dudes who are a caricature of the hapless metrosexual urban male.

And no, I'm not using "You/You're" as in you personally. I agree with much of what you said, especially about men simply being men. There's nothing more pathetic than a caricature male at either end of the spectrum (Manly vs Effeminate).

BOSS302
12-30-2013, 08:52 PM
I know many men, who probably wouldn't meet your standards of "manhood," who do their own home repairs from simple things like replacing outlets to laying tile floors to complete bathroom makeovers to patios and decks and these guys live in densely populated suburbs.

Do they produce their own electricity via a water-wheel generator from a channel which they dug themselves from a nearby river (all real men live near rivers)?

Do they make the tiles from scratch with materials sourced from their own territory which they have marked with well-placed squirts of piss (all real men mark their territory)?

Do they build the decks with wood that they chopped down with an axe made in their own backyard blacksmith barn (all real men smelt their own tools)?

If not, then they are not real men. They are fucking unicorns. Peacoat wearing, square-toed shoe having, trimmed-hair possessing vaginal boys.

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-30-2013, 11:27 PM
Do they produce their own electricity via a water-wheel generator from a channel which they dug themselves from a nearby river (all real men live near rivers)?

Do they make the tiles from scratch with materials sourced from their own territory which they have marked with well-placed squirts of piss (all real men mark their territory)?

Do they build the decks with wood that they chopped down with an axe made in their own backyard blacksmith barn (all real men smelt their own tools)?

If not, then they are not real men. They are fucking unicorns. Peacoat wearing, square-toed shoe having, trimmed-hair possessing vaginal boys.

Best AFT Forum post of 2013!

Rusty Jones
12-31-2013, 12:53 AM
So you agree that the definition of "manhood" changed because of how society views him as a provider.

What I'm saying is that he had to adapt to changes that occurred through no fault of his own.


In everything there is an amount of conformity. The point I was making was in term as to how a male should look at himself in regards to his "manhood." The way you dress for court or how good your table manners are aren't part of that identity for "manhood" because these are societal norms and they do not determine whether he is a "man."

The point was to address your villification of "societal expectations" and point out that they're not necessarily a bad thing.


So how do you equate this view of men's behavior (manhood) if they are happily married or if they are in the 70s or 80s and know they're not going to "get the girl?" Is he any less a man because he can't get the girl but get under a vehicle and fix it?

You missed the point. What I was saying is a man needs to STOP worrying about "getting the girl" in the sense adjusting his whole demeanor to that end. Women say they want a "sensitive" guy. So what happens? Dudes take that ball and run with it. Just one aspect in which men have been emasculated.

In the military, we see men engage in self destructive behavior all the time in the pursuit of sex. The problem is the glorification of sex! and dudes measuring their self-worth by how much action they get.


You don't have to get under a vehicle and fix something to get a sense of accomplishment. There are literally thousands of things people can do to achieve that. Where satisfaction comes from is doing and accomplishing something and if it is something that push you beyond what you thought you could do then all the better.

What I should have said is that I think that there are things that are haired wires into us, as men, to enjoy. But most young men today haven't tapped into that.


Now barbecuing and smoking a pipe defines your manhood? I do a lot of reading (87 books this year) but I don't smoke and reading and/or smoking in no way adds or detracts from my manhood. The problem I have with your comment is that you are defining "manhood" for everyone else instead of say this is what "manhood" is to you.

Okay, so now you're quoting two examples I gave in a paragraph, and making it look like I'm saying that it all boils down to those things? There's a bigger picture that I'm trying to paint here - mostly that we have a little too much in common with women than the men who came before. Something breaks, and we're damsels in distress - just like women.



I'm probably much older than you so from my perspective I would agree that our fathers and grandfathers were more of a "jack of all trades." But back then, cars and other technology were simpler to fix. Today, cars have a number of computers in them and the backyard mechanic doesn't have the tools or equipment needed to make the repairs correctly. I remember in the early 80s my father , who was in his late 60s, working on his cars doing tune-up, brakes, and even replacing a timing belt. When he got a newer car he wouldn't work on it because it had too technical for him.

Unless the cars were specifically designed to prevent owners from doing their own repairs, I really see no reason as to why a man shouldn't learn how to do his own repairs.


As for men today not being able to do what our fathers and grandfathers could do isn't totally correct. I know many men, who probably wouldn't meet your standards of "manhood," who do their own home repairs from simple things like replacing outlets to laying tile floors to complete bathroom makeovers to patios and decks and these guys live in densely populated suburbs.

Why are you claiming that they wouldn't meet my standard? Do they wear skinny jeans or something?


I was on board with you, but now you just sound silly. You're beginning to sound like a caricature, and I really do believe you are simply trolling.

Yeah, probably to an extent.


If your "manliness" is defined by how much flannel you're wearing, or whether your coat is from Express or Carhart, then you're already a failure. If your manliness is determined by whether your shoes are presentable or if they are more suited for chopping firewood/smelting arrowheads, then you're already a failure.

You're just as bad as the dudes who are a caricature of the hapless metrosexual urban male.

And no, I'm not using "You/You're" as in you personally. I agree with much of what you said, especially about men simply being men. There's nothing more pathetic than a caricature male at either end of the spectrum (Manly vs Effeminate).

My complaint in what you're talking about is this: once upon a time, being "pretty" was something that women did. Men, now, are trying to "out dress" women. Fight women for the mirror. Compete with women for the spotlight, instead of letting the woman be the woman. Now THAT is pathetic.

LogDog
12-31-2013, 12:57 AM
Do they produce their own electricity via a water-wheel generator from a channel which they dug themselves from a nearby river (all real men live near rivers)?

Do they make the tiles from scratch with materials sourced from their own territory which they have marked with well-placed squirts of piss (all real men mark their territory)?

Do they build the decks with wood that they chopped down with an axe made in their own backyard blacksmith barn (all real men smelt their own tools)?

If not, then they are not real men. They are fucking unicorns. Peacoat wearing, square-toed shoe having, trimmed-hair possessing vaginal boys.
They're just like you, but successful. http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-051.GIF

ChiefB
12-31-2013, 11:28 AM
I know one thing, the crusty old NCO wouldn't care about proper grammar, such as properly placing commas and periods inside of quotation marks, or knowing when to use apostrophes.

It's the difference between knowing your "shit," and knowing you're "shit."

Sorry, coma belongs outside the quotes. Same with the period (if'n you are Canadian, that is).

WeaponsTSGT
12-31-2013, 06:30 PM
Sorry, coma belongs outside the quotes. Same with the period (if'n you are Canadian, that is).

Comma and punctuation inside the quotation marks if it's part of a quote, outside if it's part of your sentence.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-31-2013, 06:51 PM
Comma and punctuation inside the quotation marks if it's part of a quote, outside if it's part of your sentence.

I read about two books per month and have never seen commas or periods outside of quotes. If you use a comma in the middle of a sentence following a quote, then the comma is inside the quote. Avid readers (of published books) understand the rules. That said, the Canadian way is different, as ChiefB pointed out.

ChiefB
01-01-2014, 11:05 AM
Comma and punctuation inside the quotation marks if it's part of a quote, outside if it's part of your sentence.

As an American, you are correct, as a Canadian (originally) however, I ... well you know what I mean.

You see, the Brits, normally considered to be purveyors of "proper English" have influenced their Canadian rabble to disagree with "Colonial English" in favor of the "mother tongue".

Rusty Jones
01-01-2014, 12:07 PM
You see, the Brits, normally considered to be purveyors of "proper English"...

And incorrectly so. Current British English came into existence in around 1830 (i.e., DECADES after the Revolutionary War), where the current accent was actually being taught in courses that the upper class would take. Shortly thereafter, the schools were no longer necessary, as other Brits began imitating these accents... and the result is what you have today.

Even the use of certain words. Brits, for example, criticize us for using the word "loan" as a verb, when the word "lend" was invented in the UK after the Revolutionary War.

THEY strayed further from pre-Colonial English than we did.

BOSS302
01-01-2014, 05:17 PM
And incorrectly so. Current British English came into existence in around 1830 (i.e., DECADES after the Revolutionary War), where the current accent was actually being taught in courses that the upper class would take. Shortly thereafter, the schools were no longer necessary, as other Brits began imitating these accents... and the result is what you have today.

Even the use of certain words. Brits, for example, criticize us for using the word "loan" as a verb, when the word "lend" was invented in the UK after the Revolutionary War.

THEY strayed further from pre-Colonial English than we did.

Quite right. That is my major beef with historical movies set before the Victorian Era that involve the English; they would not have sounded like a BBC broadcast back then. The strong British accent of today is a product of "recent" history.

Airborne
01-01-2014, 08:12 PM
Quite right. That is my major beef with historical movies set before the Victorian Era that involve the English; they would not have sounded like a BBC broadcast back then. The strong British accent of today is a product of "recent" history.

Yeh but youre making a movie in 2014 you want your 2014 audience to understand what is going on. I was watching an old james bond movie and the russians were talking with that typical russian accent in English. You could have had them speak Russian and subtitled it but then you lose your core audience.

BOSS302
01-01-2014, 08:52 PM
Yeh but youre making a movie in 2014 you want your 2014 audience to understand what is going on. I was watching an old james bond movie and the russians were talking with that typical russian accent in English. You could have had them speak Russian and subtitled it but then you lose your core audience.

I get what you're saying; you are right. Being a history buff, it does annoy me. Really, no one can watch a historical drama with me. Gladiator...I am having a fit pointing out all the inconsistencies.

WCS
01-01-2014, 09:32 PM
Several on this board are guilty of canonizing the "crusty Air Force NCO". Including me.

What is the common theme when discussing the NCO of yesteryear vs today's NCOs whom many see as metrosexuals unicorns? The "crusty Air Force NCO" apparently did not shy away from using "ass chewings" as a motivational/improvement tool, was politically incorrect with no shame, had Playboys or something on their desk, smoked indoors, drank "with the guys", and would usually slap box with the Commander or First Sergeant in defense of "their guys".

Or so it is said.

Well, out of curiosity...what say you, those who have been around long enough to experience the "crusty Air Force NCO" and the "NCO of Today"? Is there even a difference that you can discern? Is it honestly that much different in the ranks? What imperfections did the "crusty Air Force NCO" have that paints a less rosy picture of the Air Force of yesteryear?


I used a different terminology when talking to the newer/younger troops I call it old school vs new school

I had four days left in the military and they wanted me to do training old school your supervisor would say don't worry about that crap

If you ever herd an old timer say I’ll take that hit (write-up) the you know

My favorite was when they called the chow hall and had them stay open (you never seen a bunch of happier airman)

I sure missed the old Vietnam types crusty but good and loaded with common sense

fufu
01-02-2014, 02:31 PM
The military is a direct reflection of society. Men, in general, were far different in past decades than today. Most men today, for example, don't even know how to change the oil in their own car. Whereas, men from the Baby Boomer generation and earlier could fix ANYTHING. Things like that, among other things, were part of being a man.

Manhood is a lost "art." It's gotten lost over the decades, because the concept of "gender roles" became villified, and what constituted what a "man" was... was now being challenged. Decades ago, men didn't cry. Now, "real men" are sensitive and aren't afraid to show their feelings. Generation X and beyond... are generations of men raised by women, with the increase of households led by single mothers. Single mothers who are raising their sons to be the boyfriends they dreamed about having, but would never actually date.

Since my early adulthood, I've been seeking out and making efforts to "reclaim" alot of these things. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I do all of my own car repairs that do not require the engine to be pulled (and the only reason for that, is because I don't have a garage where I can use an engine crank - otherwise, I'd be more than willing to do it). I'm also a tobacco pipe smoker - something that men from my generation have only seen our grandfathers do.

Anyhow, that's my take on why things are the way they are today.

This is great. Men need to act like men, for starters:

Men should never wear womens clothing...ie skinny jeans, flat bottom "boots", makeup, etc.

Men should be fine with getting dirty and going a day or two w/out a shower if need be... Men should be willing to bathe in a river if required.(lol)

Men should know basic auto/home repairs. Oil changes, tire changing procedures, changing outlets, minor plumbing repairs, unclogging toilets, lawn mover repairs.

Men should, at a minimum, know basic information about American sports. # of players on the field for football and baseball, outs in an innning, basic rules, star players.

Fathers should forgo their personal desires for the betterment of the family. That means not driving a big fancy new truck while your kids don't have the proper clothing. That means putting down the video game controller and playing with your kids. I see too many so called men that act like little boys and not like fathers.

Somebody on this thread mentioned the men of today are being raised by women....and its true. These "men" that join the AF today do not know how to look people in the eye and give a firm handshake. Many do not know who to deal with adversity. Most of the Airman that join today have a very f-up view of the world, from the "I deserve" crowd to the "It wasnt my fault" crowd. The world is about be responsible, working hard and providing for you and your family. I really don't like how most of the Airmen I see today won't accept responsiblity for their actions. Most want to blame others as quickly as possible.

BURAWSKI
01-02-2014, 08:30 PM
This is great. Men need to act like men, for starters:

Men should never wear womens clothing...ie skinny jeans, flat bottom "boots", makeup, etc.

Men should be fine with getting dirty and going a day or two w/out a shower if need be... Men should be willing to bathe in a river if required.(lol)

Men should know basic auto/home repairs. Oil changes, tire changing procedures, changing outlets, minor plumbing repairs, unclogging toilets, lawn mover repairs.

Men should, at a minimum, know basic information about American sports. # of players on the field for football and baseball, outs in an innning, basic rules, star players.

Fathers should forgo their personal desires for the betterment of the family. That means not driving a big fancy new truck while your kids don't have the proper clothing. That means putting down the video game controller and playing with your kids. I see too many so called men that act like little boys and not like fathers.

Somebody on this thread mention the men of today are being raised by women....and its true. These "men" that join the AF today do not know how to look people in the eye and give a firm handshake. Many do not know who to deal with adversity. Most of the Airman that join today have a very f-up view of the world, from the "I deserve" crowd to the "It wasnt my fault" crowd. The world is about be responsible, working hard and providing for you and your family. I really don't like how most of the Airmen I see today won't accept responsiblity for their actions. Most want to blame others as quickly as possible.

Some very good, sage advice. Taking responsibility for your own actions. So many problems are caused by those who do not do that. Not just a problem in the AF I'm afraid, but throughout the military, and society in general.

LogDog
01-02-2014, 10:18 PM
Some very good, sage advice. Taking responsibility for your own actions. So many problems are caused by those who do not do that. Not just a problem in the AF I'm afraid, but throughout the military, and society in general.
Better yet, it should read Fathers should balance their personal desires for the betterment of the family. That means not driving a big fancy new truck while your kids don't have the proper clothing. That means putting down the video game controller and playing with your kids. I see too many so called men that act like little boys and not like fathers.
The father's main concern should be about his family but he also needs to make sure he's taking care of his needs as well. It's a hard balancing act but one that must be done.

BOSS302
01-02-2014, 10:21 PM
This is great. Men need to act like men, for starters:

Men should never wear womens clothing...ie skinny jeans, flat bottom "boots", makeup, etc.

Men should be fine with getting dirty and going a day or two w/out a shower if need be... Men should be willing to bathe in a river if required.(lol)


More caricaturing. At least Rusty was wise enough to say, "Yeah okay, maybe I am trolling a little bit..."

I can do house repairs, from changing electrical outlets to plumbing to tile and carpentry. I also own a peacoat.

I do my own oil changes, tire rotations, and other scheduled maintenance & upgrades. I also have a pair of nice "boots" so that, when I go out at night in London or Cambridge, I don't look like I'm on my way to drill for oil or clear some timber.

I follow SEC and ACC football religiously & know the ins/outs of baseball due to my enjoyment of it as a spectator sport & having played it through high school. I also have jeans that don't fit like something you'd see Obama or Romney wearing (see "Dad Jeans"). They're not "skinny" because I don't want my frank & beans fighting each other for real estate, but they sure as hell aren't ill-fitting, ill-formed 'Ranglers.

Really, if your manliness is defined by jeans and boots then you're already failing as a man.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your stuff. A man should be self-sufficient, and through being self-sufficient be able to provide for his family. It was amazing how many numbers I got from girls in the dorm or in offices when I was a tool bag carrying airman; it was like seeing a guy use tools effectively made their panties wet. Fuck, go take a walk on the flight line and have an orgasm, lady...

Also, there are some traits that are being lost on "men" today. The handshake; I immediately think less of any man who tries to "fist bump" or "bro hug" me. Hell no, shake my hand like a man.

Taking responsibility. To me, shifting blame or coming up with elaborate excuses is a very feminine trait and any man who does that loses credibility.

Speaking like a man. Stop saying "Like" and "Yeeah!" and "Ohh, okay!". Women speak like that but it has become commonplace for "men" to do the same. Men shouldn't raise the pitch of their voices like they are getting all "like thuper totally exthited!!" Here is an interesting article I came across: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2519363/Men-started-talk-like-WOMEN-Study-finds-males-rising-pitch-end-sentences.html

Interesting how this thread went from "Crusty NCOs" to "Be a man!"...

jondstewart
01-13-2014, 06:14 AM
The old school Air Force NCO's, or basically those that were in until maybe the early 90's, were poor and uneducated for the most part. Most of them were no better than the career NCO's in the Army in demeanor or behavior. These men were feared and respected, even though many of them retired as TSgt's, and even SSgt's in some cases! Few went to school while they were in the military and if they did go, that was after they got out or retired! Work and duty came first, and eff you on whatever your personal feelings were and eff you if you had to work 16 hour days, 7 days a week! Being a SSgt used to mean something! Few of them did the dirty work back in the day, now a MSgt is not leading by example if he or she is not out there working with the troops, unless it's an admin job

And I have noticed in times past that if you were a TSgt or below and had a spouse that didn't work, you lived in near poverty unless it was base housing!