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AF2017
12-16-2013, 08:03 AM
Thinking I might try and make Senior before I retire.

I believe I have good EPRs and I test pretty well, just not sure how I stack up against the rest of my career field.

I've seen a lot of good and active MSgt's not make Senior.

Just curious, why didn't you make Senior? (Besides not studying/don't test well)

What did you do that put you over the top?

Thanks for the advice!

Monkey
12-16-2013, 09:40 AM
Instead of answering your question, I will ask one of my own. What is your motivation for making Senior (increased responsibility, money, conquering the next hurdle, etc)?

71Fish
12-16-2013, 12:40 PM
Make sure you do/did the things necessary as a SSgt/TSgt.
A CMSgt once told me think 2 stripes ahead. I did not follow his advice.

Monkey
12-16-2013, 03:50 PM
Instead of answering your question, I will ask one of my own. What is your motivation for making Senior (increased responsibility, money, conquering the next hurdle, etc)?

Ok, that really wasn't cool of me. The reason I ask is because your motivation for making Senior can ultimately dictate the path you take. My motivation for making Senior has become simply to meet the expectations of my leaders (past and present). I feel motivated to not let them down.

There are three reasons why I have not made Senior up to this point.

(1) Self-preservation (I want to live). As a TSgt I started to notice how incredibly stressed out SMSgts in aircraft maintenance are. As a brand new MSgt, I had to drive my AMU superintendent to the ER six times in five months due to panic/anxiety attacks. I did not find that too appealing.

(2) Principle. Once I grew into an old MSgt, I did not want to make Senior out of self-promotion. I only wanted to make it if my leadership thought I was worthy. Instead of putting my name on Wing-level events and getting name recognition, I chose to look out for the people in my squadron first and actually make a difference. I figured if I was worthy, my EPRs would reflect--and now they do.

(3) Lousy studying. When my principles actually paid off and I got an EPR that put me in the top 20% of board scores, I did not test as well as I should have and missed by a point. I am still kicking myself after that one, mostly because I feel I let my leadership down.

Capt Alfredo
12-17-2013, 01:08 AM
I didn't make SMSgt because I was accepted to OTS and became a major instead

VCO
12-17-2013, 08:17 AM
I didn't make SMSgt because the board hasn't seen awesome yet. Give it a month...:friday:

Kalbo607
12-17-2013, 02:10 PM
I have not made SMSgt yet because I keep the bullets on my EPR truthful, and don't inflate the bullets.

BISSBOSS
12-17-2013, 02:13 PM
I think I neglected to include the pint of virgin's blood for the voodoo ceremony the selection board MUST use!

-BB-

DWWSWWD
12-17-2013, 02:22 PM
-I made SMSgt because I was given unbelievable work-related opportunities, most of which I didn't screw up to badly
-I made SMSgt because I knew that rank is a greater opportunity to help people and I could be different than many SNCOs that I met along the way
-I made SMSgt because, contrary to popular wisdom, I believe that rank is a bullshit filter. The more rank you have, the less bullshit you put up with
-I made SMSgt to better care for my family. This is the path we chose, why would I not rock it out as best I can and in doing so, have a better quality of life?

Drackore
12-17-2013, 06:44 PM
Was my first time testing this year. I doubt I made it. I don't want to make it, at least not at this base/unit. I didn't study. I started my Master's degree. I see the SMSgts walking around this base on leashes held by E9s. No thank you. Not for me. The pay difference? Not worth it. The stress? Not worth it. Hell, being a MSgt isn't worth it. Today's AF isn't even worth it. They just moved me to a new position to teach me a lesson because I won't get "on board" with their mentality. It won't work. I do enough to get my firewall 5s and stay out of trouble, but I won't "join the club". You think I want to double that pressure by joining the ranks of the E8 "Yes Chief" bitch squad?

VCO
12-17-2013, 07:14 PM
Was my first time testing this year. I doubt I made it. I don't want to make it, at least not at this base/unit. I didn't study. I started my Master's degree. I see the SMSgts walking around this base on leashes held by E9s. No thank you. Not for me. The pay difference? Not worth it. The stress? Not worth it. Hell, being a MSgt isn't worth it. Today's AF isn't even worth it. They just moved me to a new position to teach me a lesson because I won't get "on board" with their mentality. It won't work. I do enough to get my firewall 5s and stay out of trouble, but I won't "join the club". You think I want to double that pressure by joining the ranks of the E8 "Yes Chief" bitch squad?

Wow. You are jaded. I'm already in a SMSgt billet, so making the stripe wouldn't change much, except give me a bit more influence.

fufu
12-18-2013, 12:54 AM
Wow. You are jaded. I'm already in a SMSgt billet, so making the stripe wouldn't change much, except give me a bit more influence.

Nah, he just has his eyes open.

Now is the time to retire. It is only going to get worse for those that stay. Same pay, but more responsibility, more hours, more deployments, more add duties, more everything.....oh and Congress is working on screwing us out of our retirement as I type. The AF/DoD/Gov't doesn't DESERVE your loyalty. Take what you can from them, never rely on them and F-em!

DWWSWWD
12-18-2013, 02:05 PM
Was my first time testing this year. I doubt I made it. I don't want to make it, at least not at this base/unit. I didn't study. I started my Master's degree. I see the SMSgts walking around this base on leashes held by E9s. No thank you. Not for me. The pay difference? Not worth it. The stress? Not worth it. Hell, being a MSgt isn't worth it. Today's AF isn't even worth it. They just moved me to a new position to teach me a lesson because I won't get "on board" with their mentality. It won't work. I do enough to get my firewall 5s and stay out of trouble, but I won't "join the club". You think I want to double that pressure by joining the ranks of the E8 "Yes Chief" bitch squad?

I know that times will get better though probably not in the amount of time I have left. Best case is that we'll be ushered through the rough times by real, but optimistic leaders. Definitely doesn't sound like you're the guy. This seems atypical for you so it could be that you're posting in a lull or with an assist from Crown Royal, as I sometimes do. If not, please move on. Your assessment of the role of an E-8 is irrepairably jacked and you don't seem to be rocking your current rank.

RetC141BFCC
12-18-2013, 02:51 PM
I did not make SMSgt because I pissed of one weapons E-9. Firewall 5 EPRS before that PCS and firewall 5s with wing King after. One E-9 can ruin your whole chance. I would not have changed a thing. I think I helped my young troops out at that assigment. I think that E-9 should never had made E-9 he did not have his rest of his load crew to help him decided what to do. Ok rant over.

meatbringer
12-18-2013, 06:22 PM
Was my first time testing this year. I doubt I made it. I don't want to make it, at least not at this base/unit. I didn't study. I started my Master's degree. I see the SMSgts walking around this base on leashes held by E9s. No thank you. Not for me. The pay difference? Not worth it. The stress? Not worth it. Hell, being a MSgt isn't worth it. Today's AF isn't even worth it. They just moved me to a new position to teach me a lesson because I won't get "on board" with their mentality. It won't work. I do enough to get my firewall 5s and stay out of trouble, but I won't "join the club". You think I want to double that pressure by joining the ranks of the E8 "Yes Chief" bitch squad?

Speak the truth, brother! Today's SNCO's are all about getting that next stripe and making themselves stand out from the rest by screwing their people. I have seen it countless times all over the Air Force. I'm sure there are still a few good ones out there, but not too many. Logic has been replaced by the "on board" mentality. I believe this is one of the main reasons why the Air Force is crumbling apart. I'm also sure that some SNCO who is part of the problem will get all defensive. Don't worry, I don't know any of you. Maybe you're the exception. This is strictly from my observations in my career, and there seems to be quite a few who agree.

raider8169
12-18-2013, 08:35 PM
I love these types of threads, Im not even up there enough yet but it sounds like the view is better from down here. I think a lot of making the rank has to do with how much crap you are willing to deal with and how your current leaderships feels about you. I would love to stay in for 30 and be a Chief but I think retireing at 20 as a Master is more my limit.

VCO
12-18-2013, 10:25 PM
I love these types of threads, Im not even up there enough yet but it sounds like the view is better from down here. I think a lot of making the rank has to do with how much crap you are willing to deal with and how your current leaderships feels about you. I would love to stay in for 30 and be a Chief but I think retireing at 20 as a Master is more my limit.

Don't let a few bitter folks shape your view of the SNCO level. It is an amazing responsibility and a lot of hard work, but very rewarding. People get bitter when they try to buck the system and then get rolled by it.

LogDog
12-19-2013, 12:02 AM
You don't have to like the way E-8s and E-9s do things now so don't let that discourage your goals. Once you make E-8 or E-9, then you can act the way you think those ranks should act. Too often we see poor examples of SNCOs and too often no one, including senior leadership, calls them on it. Observe and note what SNCOs are doing wrong and formulate a plan for the future when you will be in their place. That way, you'll know what not to do and you can make sure the mission and your troops are properly taken care of.

RetC141BFCC
12-19-2013, 05:54 PM
Don't let a few bitter folks shape your view of the SNCO level. It is an amazing responsibility and a lot of hard work, but very rewarding. People get bitter when they try to buck the system and then get rolled by it.

If bucking the system means takeing care of the young SSgts and SRA under me then I am guilty. If we had more SRNCOS and less yes men trying to make the next stripe we would have a much better enlisted force. I guess I did buck the system to get a deserving SRA a medal when he went PCS after 4 years. I went from the best specialist flight chief in the command per inspection report. To a 4 EPR on the same EPR. I refused to roll over I know what is right and wrong and was trained by an old short mean black Vietnam Vet. I still after 35 years look up to that man to know what a leader and mentor should be.

VCO
12-19-2013, 07:34 PM
If bucking the system means takeing care of the young SSgts and SRA under me then I am guilty. If we had more SRNCOS and less yes men trying to make the next stripe we would have a much better enlisted force. I guess I did buck the system to get a deserving SRA a medal when he went PCS after 4 years. I went from the best specialist flight chief in the command per inspection report. To a 4 EPR on the same EPR. I refused to roll over I know what is right and wrong and was trained by an old short mean black Vietnam Vet. I still after 35 years look up to that man to know what a leader and mentor should be.

Doing what you are suppose to do is not bucking the system. And doing what you are suppose to normally doesn't result in EPR markdowns. Taking care of your folks is a primary responsibility in my opinion, but that has to be balanced with taking care of the Air Force. Remember, taking care of some folks is showing them the door.

Big Blue
12-21-2013, 04:35 PM
I think this was a great question. Still looking for input from those that have done it to share their nuggets. I believe I did all I could on my end so am hoping to hear good news in a few months. There is definitely some bitterness amongst some regarding what it "takes" to achieve that rank. I'm sure it's true that some do it on the backs on their teammates but others, myself including, try to do it honorably. If I do get promoted I will use my bigger sphere of influence to help others in whatever way they need it. Let's not just pile on the negativity on this thread but want to heard some positives. Oh and good luck to all that tested!

WeaponsTSGT
12-21-2013, 05:40 PM
Doing what you are suppose to do is not bucking the system. And doing what you are suppose to normally doesn't result in EPR markdowns. Taking care of your folks is a primary responsibility in my opinion, but that has to be balanced with taking care of the Air Force. Remember, taking care of some folks is showing them the door.

There are several unwritten rules in the AF, and they are unwritten because they make absolutely no sense. And these rules continue to perpetuated because of SNCO's and NCO's that don't want to be the one that is seen as stepping out of line. Like push letters for decorations because someone doesn't have firewall 5's, or how a SRA will ONLY receive an AFAM because he is an Airman. Or that someone must have college to max out their EPR. The guys that are questioning these stupid unwritten policies are not bucking the system. The same goes for the stupid notion that all SNCO's must attend a unit Christmas party, they can shove their party, I have no want/need to attend said parties. These sort of things have put us in the position that we are in today, all the way up to senior leadership in the AF. Congress will ask if you can accomplish the mission with less, and without skipping a beat the answer is yes. We are in dire need of folks that will give candid and honest feedback, and not just think of what answer will get them promoted. For Christ sakes, any SNCO that is willing to write their own awards package to me smacks of asskisser.

Big Blue
12-21-2013, 06:39 PM
There are several unwritten rules in the AF, and they are unwritten because they make absolutely no sense. And these rules continue to perpetuated because of SNCO's and NCO's that don't want to be the one that is seen as stepping out of line. Like push letters for decorations because someone doesn't have firewall 5's, or how a SRA will ONLY receive an AFAM because he is an Airman. Or that someone must have college to max out their EPR. The guys that are questioning these stupid unwritten policies are not bucking the system. The same goes for the stupid notion that all SNCO's must attend a unit Christmas party, they can shove their party, I have no want/need to attend said parties. These sort of things have put us in the position that we are in today, all the way up to senior leadership in the AF. Congress will ask if you can accomplish the mission with less, and without skipping a beat the answer is yes. We are in dire need of folks that will give candid and honest feedback, and not just think of what answer will get them promoted. For Christ sakes, any SNCO that is willing to write their own awards package to me smacks of asskisser.

I would disagree with SNCO's writing their own packages=asskisser. The majority already do or should be writing their own epr's. Nobody takes care of you better than you. Obviously, you better be writing a package on a deserving troop before on yourself. In a perfect world we could rely on our supervisors to take note of our accomplishments but they are maxed out as well. Not making excuses because they SHOULD be taking care of their troops if deserving. I'm saying that sometimes you can't wait for others and take care of your career. That way if you do get promoted into their billet YOU have the influence and power to change those things that you find wrong within your scope.

fufu
12-21-2013, 07:04 PM
I would disagree with SNCO's writing their own packages=asskisser. The majority already do or should be writing their own epr's. Nobody takes care of you better than you. Obviously, you better be writing a package on a deserving troop before on yourself. In a perfect world we could rely on our supervisors to take note of our accomplishments but they are maxed out as well. Not making excuses because they SHOULD be taking care of their troops if deserving. I'm saying that sometimes you can't wait for others and take care of your career. That way if you do get promoted into their billet YOU have the influence and power to change those things that you find wrong within your scope.

I've had this debate before with other SNCOs/Chiefs. Mostly after being asked why I never submit a 1206 for myself... I haven't and won't write myself an award. Honestly, I just can't do it. When I write one of my folks a 1206 I can make their actions sound pretty good...but when I write my own, its like "Came to work, did my job, went home".

I was recently forced into resiliency training and we had to take a character test. #2 on my list:

Humility
You do not seek the spotlight, preferring to let your accomplishments speak for themselves. You do not regard yourself as special, and others recognize and value your modesty.

So, I'm with WeaponsTSGT and feel like people who write their own awards packages are asskissers and "look at me" people. I understand the necessary evil of the "wood" to get promoted, but when your personal values collide with the AF values then you have to make a decision...either put aside your values and accept the AFs or the opposite. I chose to stay true to myself and most likely remain a MSgt until retirement.

Cookie Monster
12-21-2013, 07:15 PM
Live within your own personal integrity and you'll at least feel a lot better about yourself. After making Master I was tossed into the world of backstabbing, self-promoting peers. After getting burned a few times I started playing the game myself--but felt incredibly dirty doing this. After a while I stopped writing my own 1206s and doing things solely to look good on a records board. I eventually made Senior but the aforementioned decision likely delayed this promotion a bit. In the end I felt a lot better about how I made it, and that still means a lot to me.

Drackore
12-21-2013, 07:47 PM
Well lots of opinions. I have mine...ya'll have yours. Kool aid drinkers will always have their blue lips and brown noses. Keep it. Enjoy your stripe - I don't need it.

What I need are real leaders, and the AF is lacking that. 25K gone in the next few years. Why? Because we can't manage ourselves. Still trading people for planes, even though we aren't advertising it as such. We didn't hold our contractors to task, let them go past deadlines and overbudget (Raptor...helllllooooo?) and viola...kick out Amn. Generals? How many? Why? Civilians? How many? WHY?!?! Contribute WHAT? Yea yea...blue kool aid answer - shove it. For every one civilian worth their weight in gold I can point out 10 worth their weight in shit.

Bitter? Fuck yes I am bitter. More than half my career has been spent in war time. That entire time we've been force shaping AND tossing Airmen to the Army because THEY ALSO can't fucking manage their personnel. I lost count on the number of times we changed the PT test to make it easier to use it as a means to force shape (oh wait, "save health care costs", no...it was "warrior mindset", no..it was, whatever the new cliche is).

Do you realize that these past four years is the longest in my entire career we've gone without a significant uniform change? Stop the presses...we actually have tradition now? We're catching up to the Marines! (note to the stupid - this is dripping with sarcasm)

Bake sales, checking blocks on EPRs that mean nothing about the job (sure we're supposedly changing this - how long did that take?), decs and awards. AWARDS. Let's talk about awards. Yes it's true - if *I* don't submit a 1206 guess what, no one will submit me....ever. And I do win, often. Yes I am quite capable of playing the game and keeping my mouth shut for a quarter here and there - but I play it on my terms. I don't do the bake sales or Booster Club bull...I do my own thing. Those bullets - mine. I had direct involvement. But if I don't write and submit, it never-ever happens. Sad, ain't it? Know what else is sad? When you see Amn and NCOs win from the same section time and time and time again. You younger folks wanna know why that happens? Because those folks winning goes on that SNCO's EPR. That pads their board score. THAT is why. Most deserving award winner? LOL...fuck no. We call that "grooming" in the SNCO biz. That is leadership grooming that particular MSgt/SMSgt for a high board score...so their EPR can say "Mentored X Amn/NCO sq/gp award winners - SMSgt board a must!" Did I just blow that wide open or what?

For you blue kool aid drinkers on this post - if you haven't experienced this, I envy you either for your luck of being assigned to bases that actually have integrity (doubt it) or your pure, sheer ignorance. Most likely you just turn a blind eye and jump on board and "play along". You're "on board" with your E9. Kissy kiss, eh?

And you're bullshit about "just get out" - fuck the hell off. That's YOUR easy way out, asshole. The AF needs bitter, crusty system buckers like me. I'm the mean fucking thorn in your goddamn side. I'm the guy taking that Amn and NCO to the IG when you break the AFI or the law. I'm the one that tap dances on the CC's desk yelling and screaming that you are unfit to lead because you are too busy looking out for yourself and not taking care of your people because they keep coming to ME. There is a god damn reason I get sent to the worst shops after they fire dirtbag SNCOs to fix them up. I might not be liked because of my "attitude", but I pride myself on getting results. When shit needs fix, they come to me every god damn time. Honestly, for once I'd love to go to a section that isn't broke just so I can enjoy myself.

Don't like what I typed, I don't like what some of you typed. Mine is cold hard truth. Your is most likely ate up bullshit fluff that I even question if you believe. Either way - we can agree on this: We're not going to change each other's minds over the internet. So accept it. I accept that you're full of shit. Maybe you just need to leave your cushy carpeted office and go get some *real talk* on with the boots on the ground and see what's up. Get back to your roots. 25K less people with the same fucking mission and responsibilities and ops tempo? You really think this isn't stressing people out? Are you even TALKING to people, or are you just forwarding/reciting those idiot emails that they've seen a dozen times? Edit: It's not just freaking out people that think they will get the boot. It's freaking out the people that believe they can actually stay in and have to do this job with so much less! What are you telling them? If your first thought in your head was "suck it up and deal with it" - YOU are the problem and YOU need to go because YOU fucking suck. That's biblical.

Be a leader, not a voicebox idiot. We've got enough of those from the very top down. The AF can NOT keep going the way it has been the past decade. This status quo, "it's always been this way" bullshit has failed. Wake up and see it before it truly slaps you in the face so hard you'll get a concussion. You don't have to be a bitter asshole like me to deal with it - but ya gotta deal with it eventually.

LogDog
12-21-2013, 08:32 PM
Live within your own personal integrity and you'll at least feel a lot better about yourself. After making Master I was tossed into the world of backstabbing, self-promoting peers. After getting burned a few times I started playing the game myself--but felt incredibly dirty doing this. After a while I stopped writing my own 1206s and doing things solely to look good on a records board. I eventually made Senior but the aforementioned decision likely delayed this promotion a bit. In the end I felt a lot better about how I made it, and that still means a lot to me.
I've been in the same situation as you. I never thought I had to make someone else look bad to make myself look good. I recognized long ago that most people do a good job of making themselves look bad without my having to help them. The best course of action I took and advocated was to do the job the best you can within the time limits given and let your work speak for itself. Give credit to those who did it and don't try to pass off their work/ideas as yours. Your reward is for you to recognize the good work/ideas.

Old war story. Our shop OIC was a Capt in the Medical Service Corps (MSC), which is very political, and he was PCSing to a medical recruiting position for doctors and nurses. He told us the medical recruiting field was very political and that he had to play the political game. A SMSgt and myself told him to ignore the political game and let his work do his talking for him. When his fellow MSC officers are talking bad about him behind his back to their commander all he had to do when confronted by the commander was to ask "How is my work?"; "Is it on-time?"; and "Does it meet the standards you expect of me?" If the commander answers yes to all the questions then all the Capt had to do is ask him "Then what is the problem you have with me?"

The Capt said that wouldn't work and he could play the political game better. A year later we found out he was fired from his job because he wasn't good a playing the political game. He visited our shop and admitted our advice was what he should have followed.

fufu
12-21-2013, 10:19 PM
I reported this post....for being so fucking awesome...full of truth!!! :-)

fufu
12-21-2013, 10:23 PM
Well lots of opinions. I have mine...ya'll have yours. Kool aid drinkers will always have their blue lips and brown noses. Keep it. Enjoy your stripe - I don't need it.

What I need are real leaders, and the AF is lacking that. 25K gone in the next few years. Why? Because we can't manage ourselves. Still trading people for planes, even though we aren't advertising it as such. We didn't hold our contractors to task, let them go past deadlines and overbudget (Raptor...helllllooooo?) and viola...kick out Amn. Generals? How many? Why? Civilians? How many? WHY?!?! Contribute WHAT? Yea yea...blue kool aid answer - shove it. For every one civilian worth their weight in gold I can point out 10 worth their weight in shit.

Bitter? Fuck yes I am bitter. More than half my career has been spent in war time. That entire time we've been force shaping AND tossing Airmen to the Army because THEY ALSO can't fucking manage their personnel. I lost count on the number of times we changed the PT test to make it easier to use it as a means to force shape (oh wait, "save health care costs", no...it was "warrior mindset", no..it was, whatever the new cliche is).

Do you realize that these past four years is the longest in my entire career we've gone without a significant uniform change? Stop the presses...we actually have tradition now? We're catching up to the Marines! (note to the stupid - this is dripping with sarcasm)

Bake sales, checking blocks on EPRs that mean nothing about the job (sure we're supposedly changing this - how long did that take?), decs and awards. AWARDS. Let's talk about awards. Yes it's true - if *I* don't submit a 1206 guess what, no one will submit me....ever. And I do win, often. Yes I am quite capable of playing the game and keeping my mouth shut for a quarter here and there - but I play it on my terms. I don't do the bake sales or Booster Club bull...I do my own thing. Those bullets - mine. I had direct involvement. But if I don't write and submit, it never-ever happens. Sad, ain't it? Know what else is sad? When you see Amn and NCOs win from the same section time and time and time again. You younger folks wanna know why that happens? Because those folks winning goes on that SNCO's EPR. That pads their board score. THAT is why. Most deserving award winner? LOL...fuck no. We call that "grooming" in the SNCO biz. That is leadership grooming that particular MSgt/SMSgt for a high board score...so their EPR can say "Mentored X Amn/NCO sq/gp award winners - SMSgt board a must!" Did I just blow that wide open or what?

For you blue kool aid drinkers on this post - if you haven't experienced this, I envy you either for your luck of being assigned to bases that actually have integrity (doubt it) or your pure, sheer ignorance. Most likely you just turn a blind eye and jump on board and "play along". You're "on board" with your E9. Kissy kiss, eh?

And you're bullshit about "just get out" - fuck the hell off. That's YOUR easy way out, asshole. The AF needs bitter, crusty system buckers like me. I'm the mean fucking thorn in your goddamn side. I'm the guy taking that Amn and NCO to the IG when you break the AFI or the law. I'm the one that tap dances on the CC's desk yelling and screaming that you are unfit to lead because you are too busy looking out for yourself and not taking care of your people because they keep coming to ME. There is a god damn reason I get sent to the worst shops after they fire dirtbag SNCOs to fix them up. I might not be liked because of my "attitude", but I pride myself on getting results. When shit needs fix, they come to me every god damn time. Honestly, for once I'd love to go to a section that isn't broke just so I can enjoy myself.

Don't like what I typed, I don't like what some of you typed. Mine is cold hard truth. Your is most likely ate up bullshit fluff that I even question if you believe. Either way - we can agree on this: We're not going to change each other's minds over the internet. So accept it. I accept that you're full of shit. Maybe you just need to leave your cushy carpeted office and go get some *real talk* on with the boots on the ground and see what's up. Get back to your roots. 25K less people with the same fucking mission and responsibilities and ops tempo? You really think this isn't stressing people out? Are you even TALKING to people, or are you just forwarding/reciting those idiot emails that they've seen a dozen times? Edit: It's not just freaking out people that think they will get the boot. It's freaking out the people that believe they can actually stay in and have to do this job with so much less! What are you telling them? If your first thought in your head was "suck it up and deal with it" - YOU are the problem and YOU need to go because YOU fucking suck. That's biblical.

Be a leader, not a voicebox idiot. We've got enough of those from the very top down. The AF can NOT keep going the way it has been the past decade. This status quo, "it's always been this way" bullshit has failed. Wake up and see it before it truly slaps you in the face so hard you'll get a concussion. You don't have to be a bitter asshole like me to deal with it - but ya gotta deal with it eventually.

I reported this post....for being so fucking awesome...full of truth!!! :-)

meatbringer
12-22-2013, 06:33 AM
Well lots of opinions. I have mine...ya'll have yours. Kool aid drinkers will always have their blue lips and brown noses. Keep it. Enjoy your stripe - I don't need it.

What I need are real leaders, and the AF is lacking that. 25K gone in the next few years. Why? Because we can't manage ourselves. Still trading people for planes, even though we aren't advertising it as such. We didn't hold our contractors to task, let them go past deadlines and overbudget (Raptor...helllllooooo?) and viola...kick out Amn. Generals? How many? Why? Civilians? How many? WHY?!?! Contribute WHAT? Yea yea...blue kool aid answer - shove it. For every one civilian worth their weight in gold I can point out 10 worth their weight in shit.

Bitter? Fuck yes I am bitter. More than half my career has been spent in war time. That entire time we've been force shaping AND tossing Airmen to the Army because THEY ALSO can't fucking manage their personnel. I lost count on the number of times we changed the PT test to make it easier to use it as a means to force shape (oh wait, "save health care costs", no...it was "warrior mindset", no..it was, whatever the new cliche is).

Do you realize that these past four years is the longest in my entire career we've gone without a significant uniform change? Stop the presses...we actually have tradition now? We're catching up to the Marines! (note to the stupid - this is dripping with sarcasm)

Bake sales, checking blocks on EPRs that mean nothing about the job (sure we're supposedly changing this - how long did that take?), decs and awards. AWARDS. Let's talk about awards. Yes it's true - if *I* don't submit a 1206 guess what, no one will submit me....ever. And I do win, often. Yes I am quite capable of playing the game and keeping my mouth shut for a quarter here and there - but I play it on my terms. I don't do the bake sales or Booster Club bull...I do my own thing. Those bullets - mine. I had direct involvement. But if I don't write and submit, it never-ever happens. Sad, ain't it? Know what else is sad? When you see Amn and NCOs win from the same section time and time and time again. You younger folks wanna know why that happens? Because those folks winning goes on that SNCO's EPR. That pads their board score. THAT is why. Most deserving award winner? LOL...fuck no. We call that "grooming" in the SNCO biz. That is leadership grooming that particular MSgt/SMSgt for a high board score...so their EPR can say "Mentored X Amn/NCO sq/gp award winners - SMSgt board a must!" Did I just blow that wide open or what?

For you blue kool aid drinkers on this post - if you haven't experienced this, I envy you either for your luck of being assigned to bases that actually have integrity (doubt it) or your pure, sheer ignorance. Most likely you just turn a blind eye and jump on board and "play along". You're "on board" with your E9. Kissy kiss, eh?

And you're bullshit about "just get out" - fuck the hell off. That's YOUR easy way out, asshole. The AF needs bitter, crusty system buckers like me. I'm the mean fucking thorn in your goddamn side. I'm the guy taking that Amn and NCO to the IG when you break the AFI or the law. I'm the one that tap dances on the CC's desk yelling and screaming that you are unfit to lead because you are too busy looking out for yourself and not taking care of your people because they keep coming to ME. There is a god damn reason I get sent to the worst shops after they fire dirtbag SNCOs to fix them up. I might not be liked because of my "attitude", but I pride myself on getting results. When shit needs fix, they come to me every god damn time. Honestly, for once I'd love to go to a section that isn't broke just so I can enjoy myself.

Don't like what I typed, I don't like what some of you typed. Mine is cold hard truth. Your is most likely ate up bullshit fluff that I even question if you believe. Either way - we can agree on this: We're not going to change each other's minds over the internet. So accept it. I accept that you're full of shit. Maybe you just need to leave your cushy carpeted office and go get some *real talk* on with the boots on the ground and see what's up. Get back to your roots. 25K less people with the same fucking mission and responsibilities and ops tempo? You really think this isn't stressing people out? Are you even TALKING to people, or are you just forwarding/reciting those idiot emails that they've seen a dozen times? Edit: It's not just freaking out people that think they will get the boot. It's freaking out the people that believe they can actually stay in and have to do this job with so much less! What are you telling them? If your first thought in your head was "suck it up and deal with it" - YOU are the problem and YOU need to go because YOU fucking suck. That's biblical.

Be a leader, not a voicebox idiot. We've got enough of those from the very top down. The AF can NOT keep going the way it has been the past decade. This status quo, "it's always been this way" bullshit has failed. Wake up and see it before it truly slaps you in the face so hard you'll get a concussion. You don't have to be a bitter asshole like me to deal with it - but ya gotta deal with it eventually.

Nice to see there is actually a few good ones left out there....Well put, sir.

VCO
12-22-2013, 06:47 AM
There are several unwritten rules in the AF, and they are unwritten because they make absolutely no sense. And these rules continue to perpetuated because of SNCO's and NCO's that don't want to be the one that is seen as stepping out of line. Like push letters for decorations because someone doesn't have firewall 5's, or how a SRA will ONLY receive an AFAM because he is an Airman. Or that someone must have college to max out their EPR. The guys that are questioning these stupid unwritten policies are not bucking the system. The same goes for the stupid notion that all SNCO's must attend a unit Christmas party, they can shove their party, I have no want/need to attend said parties. These sort of things have put us in the position that we are in today, all the way up to senior leadership in the AF. Congress will ask if you can accomplish the mission with less, and without skipping a beat the answer is yes. We are in dire need of folks that will give candid and honest feedback, and not just think of what answer will get them promoted. For Christ sakes, any SNCO that is willing to write their own awards package to me smacks of asskisser.
Questioning unwritten rules is fine, especially if it is taking care of your people. You don't normally see EPR markdowns for that. I've never seen it. If people are getting markdowns, they are doing it wrong.

VCO
12-22-2013, 06:59 AM
Well lots of opinions. I have mine...ya'll have yours. Kool aid drinkers will always have their blue lips and brown noses. Keep it. Enjoy your stripe - I don't need it.

What I need are real leaders, and the AF is lacking that. 25K gone in the next few years. Why? Because we can't manage ourselves. Still trading people for planes, even though we aren't advertising it as such. We didn't hold our contractors to task, let them go past deadlines and overbudget (Raptor...helllllooooo?) and viola...kick out Amn. Generals? How many? Why? Civilians? How many? WHY?!?! Contribute WHAT? Yea yea...blue kool aid answer - shove it. For every one civilian worth their weight in gold I can point out 10 worth their weight in shit.

Bitter? Fuck yes I am bitter. More than half my career has been spent in war time. That entire time we've been force shaping AND tossing Airmen to the Army because THEY ALSO can't fucking manage their personnel. I lost count on the number of times we changed the PT test to make it easier to use it as a means to force shape (oh wait, "save health care costs", no...it was "warrior mindset", no..it was, whatever the new cliche is).

Do you realize that these past four years is the longest in my entire career we've gone without a significant uniform change? Stop the presses...we actually have tradition now? We're catching up to the Marines! (note to the stupid - this is dripping with sarcasm)

Bake sales, checking blocks on EPRs that mean nothing about the job (sure we're supposedly changing this - how long did that take?), decs and awards. AWARDS. Let's talk about awards. Yes it's true - if *I* don't submit a 1206 guess what, no one will submit me....ever. And I do win, often. Yes I am quite capable of playing the game and keeping my mouth shut for a quarter here and there - but I play it on my terms. I don't do the bake sales or Booster Club bull...I do my own thing. Those bullets - mine. I had direct involvement. But if I don't write and submit, it never-ever happens. Sad, ain't it? Know what else is sad? When you see Amn and NCOs win from the same section time and time and time again. You younger folks wanna know why that happens? Because those folks winning goes on that SNCO's EPR. That pads their board score. THAT is why. Most deserving award winner? LOL...fuck no. We call that "grooming" in the SNCO biz. That is leadership grooming that particular MSgt/SMSgt for a high board score...so their EPR can say "Mentored X Amn/NCO sq/gp award winners - SMSgt board a must!" Did I just blow that wide open or what?

For you blue kool aid drinkers on this post - if you haven't experienced this, I envy you either for your luck of being assigned to bases that actually have integrity (doubt it) or your pure, sheer ignorance. Most likely you just turn a blind eye and jump on board and "play along". You're "on board" with your E9. Kissy kiss, eh?

And you're bullshit about "just get out" - fuck the hell off. That's YOUR easy way out, asshole. The AF needs bitter, crusty system buckers like me. I'm the mean fucking thorn in your goddamn side. I'm the guy taking that Amn and NCO to the IG when you break the AFI or the law. I'm the one that tap dances on the CC's desk yelling and screaming that you are unfit to lead because you are too busy looking out for yourself and not taking care of your people because they keep coming to ME. There is a god damn reason I get sent to the worst shops after they fire dirtbag SNCOs to fix them up. I might not be liked because of my "attitude", but I pride myself on getting results. When shit needs fix, they come to me every god damn time. Honestly, for once I'd love to go to a section that isn't broke just so I can enjoy myself.

Don't like what I typed, I don't like what some of you typed. Mine is cold hard truth. Your is most likely ate up bullshit fluff that I even question if you believe. Either way - we can agree on this: We're not going to change each other's minds over the internet. So accept it. I accept that you're full of shit. Maybe you just need to leave your cushy carpeted office and go get some *real talk* on with the boots on the ground and see what's up. Get back to your roots. 25K less people with the same fucking mission and responsibilities and ops tempo? You really think this isn't stressing people out? Are you even TALKING to people, or are you just forwarding/reciting those idiot emails that they've seen a dozen times? Edit: It's not just freaking out people that think they will get the boot. It's freaking out the people that believe they can actually stay in and have to do this job with so much less! What are you telling them? If your first thought in your head was "suck it up and deal with it" - YOU are the problem and YOU need to go because YOU fucking suck. That's biblical.

Be a leader, not a voicebox idiot. We've got enough of those from the very top down. The AF can NOT keep going the way it has been the past decade. This status quo, "it's always been this way" bullshit has failed. Wake up and see it before it truly slaps you in the face so hard you'll get a concussion. You don't have to be a bitter asshole like me to deal with it - but ya gotta deal with it eventually.

You have a lot of frustration with the way the AF is being run, but you are not doing what needs to be done to fix it. Instead of being a MSgt for life and sticking it to "the man," you could subscribe and influence change the right way as you climb the ranks. From reading the above post, it is obvious to me that you are a very passionate person with some good perspectives. However, your bitterness tells me you are already done and probably just waiting for the axe to fall.

VCO
12-22-2013, 07:09 AM
AWARDS. Let's talk about awards. Yes it's true - if *I* don't submit a 1206 guess what, no one will submit me....ever. And I do win, often. Yes I am quite capable of playing the game and keeping my mouth shut for a quarter here and there - but I play it on my terms. I don't do the bake sales or Booster Club bull...I do my own thing. Those bullets - mine. I had direct involvement. But if I don't write and submit, it never-ever happens. Sad, ain't it? Know what else is sad? When you see Amn and NCOs win from the same section time and time and time again. You younger folks wanna know why that happens? Because those folks winning goes on that SNCO's EPR. That pads their board score. THAT is why. Most deserving award winner? LOL...fuck no. We call that "grooming" in the SNCO biz. That is leadership grooming that particular MSgt/SMSgt for a high board score...so their EPR can say "Mentored X Amn/NCO sq/gp award winners - SMSgt board a must!" Did I just blow that wide open or what?


Had to comment on this. I've always believed in taking care of folks. Part of that is getting them recognized when deserved. If they have the potential to be awesome, but need a push, I'll give them a push. Call it grooming if you want. It is. But I don't see it as a negative. When you have a section continually winning awards, it shows that leadership is putting the time in to get people recognized, and most of all, the folks are doing great stuff. It isn't an elaborate conspiracy to get a SNCO promoted. Will it help the SNCO(s)? Yes, because they are taking care of their people and their people are taking care of them.

BOSS302
12-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Had to comment on this. I've always believed in taking care of folks. Part of that is getting them recognized when deserved. If they have the potential to be awesome, but need a push, I'll give them a push. Call it grooming if you want. It is. But I don't see it as a negative. When you have a section continually winning awards, it shows that leadership is putting the time in to get people recognized, and most of all, the folks are doing great stuff. It isn't an elaborate conspiracy to get a SNCO promoted. Will it help the SNCO(s)? Yes, because they are taking care of their people and their people are taking care of them.

Usually that section consists of one MSgt, one junior NCO, and one or two airmen who need to be thumped in the throat.

They are the ones having "party planning" meetings from 1300hrs until 1500hrs, prepping breakfast burritos during morning PT and then spending all morning "setting up/selling/tearing down", taking an inordinate amount of time to plan for some Wing-level fundraiser (e.g., 4th of July food booths), and other nonsense. Others within that section who do not subscribe to the silliness are working x10 to make up the shortfall, and other sections are too busy getting their work done to keep their squadron off the Wing King's naughty list at the stand-up meetings.

I'm not privy to such information due to my being of the enlisted peasantry, but I do wonder if any squadron CC has ever told the Wing/CC, "Sir we did not meet this quarter's metrics due to us having to surge on bake sales, barbecues, and penny raffles in order to meet the demands of the annual holiday party. The 12-ship deployment to Djibouti will have to wait. However, we did sweep the quarterly awards...sir...."

Fair play to them; they recognize the game and will bend themselves in whatever direction is needed to check the boxes, get their plaques/trophies/kudos, and stream through the ranks like a prissy little meteor and then perpetuate the cycle from above. I'd rather retire as a MSgt or vol-sep as a junior NCO than wear the Burrito King Top Three diadem as a SMSgt/Chief.

I'd say I'm bitter. With good reason.

On a side note...if I were working for KBR or a city engineering cooperative and told them, "I won't be here from 0800 until about 1200, I have some volunteering to do. Oh, and then I'll be taking lunch from 1200 to 1300, so I'll be in at 1400. Do I still get off at 1630 today?" how long would I remain employed within that organization before a steel-toed boot was firmly planted within my rectum & launched me to the unemployment line?

VCO
12-22-2013, 11:35 AM
Usually that section consists of one MSgt, one junior NCO, and one or two airmen who need to be thumped in the throat.

They are the ones having "party planning" meetings from 1300hrs until 1500hrs, prepping breakfast burritos during morning PT and then spending all morning "setting up/selling/tearing down", taking an inordinate amount of time to plan for some Wing-level fundraiser (e.g., 4th of July food booths), and other nonsense. Others within that section who do not subscribe to the silliness are working x10 to make up the shortfall, and other sections are too busy getting their work done to keep their squadron off the Wing King's naughty list at the stand-up meetings.

I'm not privy to such information due to my being of the enlisted peasantry, but I do wonder if any squadron CC has ever told the Wing/CC, "Sir we did not meet this quarter's metrics due to us having to surge on bake sales, barbecues, and penny raffles in order to meet the demands of the annual holiday party. The 12-ship deployment to Djibouti will have to wait. However, we did sweep the quarterly awards...sir...."

Fair play to them; they recognize the game and will bend themselves in whatever direction is needed to check the boxes, get their plaques/trophies/kudos, and stream through the ranks like a prissy little meteor and then perpetuate the cycle from above. I'd rather retire as a MSgt or vol-sep as a junior NCO than wear the Burrito King Top Three diadem as a SMSgt/Chief.

I'd say I'm bitter. With good reason.

On a side note...if I were working for KBR or a city engineering cooperative and told them, "I won't be here from 0800 until about 1200, I have some volunteering to do. Oh, and then I'll be taking lunch from 1200 to 1300, so I'll be in at 1400. Do I still get off at 1630 today?" how long would I remain employed within that organization before a steel-toed boot was firmly planted within my rectum & launched me to the unemployment line?
You hate being shown up, boss302? My stroked 351 will own ya... :) Oh ya, huh?

BOSS302
12-22-2013, 11:39 AM
You hate being shown up, boss302? My stroked 351 will own ya... :) Oh ya, huh?

The 302 is king. It made mince-meat of a track-tweaked BMW M3 (Motor Trend) and makes anything from Chevy/Dodge seem like a Kia Sedona.

And it never sold a breakfast burrito in its life.

VCO
12-22-2013, 11:44 AM
The 302 is king. It made mince-meat of a track-tweaked BMW M3 (Motor Trend) and makes anything from Chevy/Dodge seem like a Kia Sedona.

And it never sold a breakfast burrito in its life.
Sorta right. But can it stand up to a 351W?

Drackore
12-22-2013, 01:40 PM
My point = completely fucking missed


Had to comment on this. I've always believed in taking care of folks. Part of that is getting them recognized when deserved. If they have the potential to be awesome, but need a push, I'll give them a push. Call it grooming if you want. It is. But I don't see it as a negative. When you have a section continually winning awards, it shows that leadership is putting the time in to get people recognized, and most of all, the folks are doing great stuff. It isn't an elaborate conspiracy to get a SNCO promoted. Will it help the SNCO(s)? Yes, because they are taking care of their people and their people are taking care of them.

Rainmaker
12-22-2013, 02:45 PM
Usually that section consists of one MSgt, one junior NCO, and one or two airmen who need to be thumped in the throat.

They are the ones having "party planning" meetings from 1300hrs until 1500hrs, prepping breakfast burritos during morning PT and then spending all morning "setting up/selling/tearing down", taking an inordinate amount of time to plan for some Wing-level fundraiser (e.g., 4th of July food booths), and other nonsense. Others within that section who do not subscribe to the silliness are working x10 to make up the shortfall, and other sections are too busy getting their work done to keep their squadron off the Wing King's naughty list at the stand-up meetings.

I'm not privy to such information due to my being of the enlisted peasantry, but I do wonder if any squadron CC has ever told the Wing/CC, "Sir we did not meet this quarter's metrics due to us having to surge on bake sales, barbecues, and penny raffles in order to meet the demands of the annual holiday party. The 12-ship deployment to Djibouti will have to wait. However, we did sweep the quarterly awards...sir...."

Fair play to them; they recognize the game and will bend themselves in whatever direction is needed to check the boxes, get their plaques/trophies/kudos, and stream through the ranks like a prissy little meteor and then perpetuate the cycle from above. I'd rather retire as a MSgt or vol-sep as a junior NCO than wear the Burrito King Top Three diadem as a SMSgt/Chief.

I'd say I'm bitter. With good reason.

On a side note...if I were working for KBR or a city engineering cooperative and told them, "I won't be here from 0800 until about 1200, I have some volunteering to do. Oh, and then I'll be taking lunch from 1200 to 1300, so I'll be in at 1400. Do I still get off at 1630 today?" how long would I remain employed within that organization before a steel-toed boot was firmly planted within my rectum & launched me to the unemployment line?

Probably quite a while if you were a retired General Officer or chick with a huge rack in a "Business Development" position.

Chief_KO
12-22-2013, 02:53 PM
I invented the Breakfast Burrito and sued McDonald's on behalf of my wing Top-III. We settled out of court and I can't divulge the amount of compensation. But we fully funded all wing activities for the next 50 years, bought each Top-III executive officer a gold Rolex, and funded the command chief's hair transplant.

Too often MSgt "X" is selected for SMSgt and the "court of public opinion" decided that he/she made it solely because of a duty title or office they held.

Seriously, I was never a Top-III officer but was involved in a few activities (not fundraisers) that I thought were good uses of my free time and were what the Top-III was supposed to be doing. I did do one fundraiser...sold tickets for the Top-III's annual BBQ brisket sandwich fundraiser. That's right boys & girls, the Top-III had ONE FUNDRAISER a year, met all their obligations, and maintained a reasonable budget. Of course we were not giving away $100 doo-dads for SNCO induction back then...

WRT to volunteerism & duty time. There is nothing wrong by having people "make up the time" spent outside the workcenter. It must be applied equally, same policy for taking classes, playing intramural sports (usually golf), etc. I remember working nights as an A1C/SrA ('84-'85) having to do my details before I could leave to attend my college classes.

WeaponsTSGT
12-22-2013, 03:09 PM
Questioning unwritten rules is fine, especially if it is taking care of your people. You don't normally see EPR markdowns for that. I've never seen it. If people are getting markdowns, they are doing it wrong.

Maybe that's because of where you work, I would be willing to bet that it's pretty common across the AF. You have a pretty optimistic view of where we're at and where we're going, you also seem to have a quick "oh you're not doing it right", holier than thou come back for many of the posters on this site. For your first post on this thread I can tell you that you and I have had MSgt on for around the same amount of time, however you strike me as a "fast burner". That being said it's clear as day to many why the AF likes the fast burner, they aren't as beat down, they don't have enough experience to say bullshit, and they've been to PME recently and can regurgitate the stupidity they were taught. I could be wrong and you could be a current or former PME instructor, but either way you're coming across as a douche.

WeaponsTSGT
12-22-2013, 03:20 PM
I invented the Breakfast Burrito and sued McDonald's on behalf of my wing Top-III. We settled out of court and I can't divulge the amount of compensation. But we fully funded all wing activities for the next 50 years, bought each Top-III executive officer a gold Rolex, and funded the command chief's hair transplant.

Too often MSgt "X" is selected for SMSgt and the "court of public opinion" decided that he/she made it solely because of a duty title or office they held.

Seriously, I was never a Top-III officer but was involved in a few activities (not fundraisers) that I thought were good uses of my free time and were what the Top-III was supposed to be doing. I did do one fundraiser...sold tickets for the Top-III's annual BBQ brisket sandwich fundraiser. That's right boys & girls, the Top-III had ONE FUNDRAISER a year, met all their obligations, and maintained a reasonable budget. Of course we were not giving away $100 doo-dads for SNCO induction back then...

WRT to volunteerism & duty time. There is nothing wrong by having people "make up the time" spent outside the workcenter. It must be applied equally, same policy for taking classes, playing intramural sports (usually golf), etc. I remember working nights as an A1C/SrA ('84-'85) having to do my details before I could leave to attend my college classes.

I don't know when we made the change but it's been a slow gradual process. I entered the AF in 95, and it's a night and day difference. I'm currently at my 9th permanent duty station and probably my 16th/17th different duty section and can tell you that there is so much attention given to college and feeding the homeless it's ridiculous. I routed an EPR last week and the SMSgt that was next in the chain in EMS wrote the comment "So no college and you wrote a 5", that POS doesn't even know the ratee. I can't even begin to describe my current level of disgust for the state of the AF.

fufu
12-22-2013, 03:46 PM
I don't know when we made the change but it's been a slow gradual process. I entered the AF in 95, and it's a night and day difference. I'm currently at my 9th permanent duty station and probably my 16th/17th different duty section and can tell you that there is so much attention given to college and feeding the homeless it's ridiculous. I routed an EPR last week and the SMSgt that was next in the chain in EMS wrote the comment "So no college and you wrote a 5", that POS doesn't even know the ratee. I can't even begin to describe my current level of disgust for the state of the AF.

Sounds about right. Hell to be honest, anyone who finishes their degree early in their career is actually punished for quarterly awards. You need to finish school but do it slowly so you remain competitive for awards. :rolleyes: I'm fixing to ramp up my schooling to max classes per term. I WILL be ready to retire in 2 yrs. Fuck this shit.

5 years to 20, can't wait and I know its only going to get worse after this 25K drawdown. Same mission, same stupid Mic-T, same additional duties, same everything except the # of people. Which means those already picking up the slack for the bake sale ninjas will have EVEN more work to do.

Regarding Drackore comment about SNCO playing the "grooming" game by getting awards for their folks.... Two years ago, I sat on a qtrly NCO board as a judge with 4 other MSgts. We reviewed 3 packages, all from different flights. Two MSgts co-wrote one of the packages AND they were 1/2 the board. One POS MSgt of the two, went around and dug up every piece of information he could in an attempt to disprove the other two nominees bullets(hrs saved, $ saved, etc)... Those two basically railroaded the board and president into selecting their package. I tried to fight the good fight and was told to shut up and color. I left the meeting SMH and feeling like we just fucked one of the nominees cause he really deserved he award and they gave it another less deserving guy.

In my current Sq, again I judged the NCO board. We ended up with two that were basically tied. 2 of the 4 SNCOs wanted to give it to the guy with the higher PT score. I voiced a huge WTF does that have to do with this board?

Big Blue has created this machine and its full steam ahead. College, Volunteerism, filling squares.....its all a GD shame b/c we used to be awesome as the AF. Today, we are raping in record numbers, killing ourselves in record numbers and our Generals can't stay out of the news.

BOSS302
12-22-2013, 06:02 PM
Two MSgts co-wrote one of the packages AND they were 1/2 the board. One POS MSgt of the two, went around and dug up every piece of information he could in an attempt to disprove the other two nominees bullets(hrs saved, $ saved, etc)... Those two basically railroaded the board and president into selecting their package.

I was on a board for Group quarterlies (airmen packages). The board for airman packages was composed of all junior NCOs with one SNCO mentor. He was from COMM and he might as well had a pair of pom-poms and a short skirt because he cheerleaded HARD for a female A1C from his squadron. Her package was tied for points with one from LRS; I and another SSgt called into question the COMM airman's bullet of "400+ hrs CBTs/blah blah credits online" something to that effect.

Essentially it was a vastly-bullshit bullet and we were swaying the board's opinion that it stank to high-heaven.

Enter the SNCO cheerleader: MSgt black guy who wouldn't have looked out out place in a Three Six Mafia music video, spoke in almost pure ebonics, and had creases glued into his ABU sleeves. He said all the key words: "she's been hard-charging...I know for a fact she did all those CBTs...she's a true go-getter..." etc.

Then he finishes it off with "I'm not trying to sway you or anything, just lettin ya'll know what's up." The other SSgt politely called him out on his cheerleading before I could and they awkwardly got into a bit of an argument.

It was a bad experience, the COMM chick's package was voted as the winner, and I left the board disgusted and relayed my disgust to my NCOIC back at the shop.

BOSS302
12-22-2013, 06:03 PM
Sorta right. But can it stand up to a 351W?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wWNbu_f2PE

Mr. Happy
12-22-2013, 06:40 PM
Enter the SNCO cheerleader: MSgt black guy who wouldn't have looked out out place in a Three Six Mafia music video, spoke in almost pure ebonics, and had creases glued into his ABU sleeves. He said all the key words: "she's been hard-charging...I know for a fact she did all those CBTs...she's a true go-getter..." etc.

I would take a Vegas bet the Comm troop was black as well. It may sound like my remark is racist, it's not intended, I'm the furthest thing from that. But it sure doesn't make it right when it blatantly comes from the other direction. If she wasn't, then I'll gladly STFU.

LogDog
12-22-2013, 06:42 PM
Sounds about right. Hell to be honest, anyone who finishes their degree early in their career is actually punished for quarterly awards. You need to finish school but do it slowly so you remain competitive for awards. :rolleyes: I'm fixing to ramp up my schooling to max classes per term. I WILL be ready to retire in 2 yrs. Fuck this shit.

5 years to 20, can't wait and I know its only going to get worse after this 25K drawdown. Same mission, same stupid Mic-T, same additional duties, same everything except the # of people. Which means those already picking up the slack for the bake sale ninjas will have EVEN more work to do.

Regarding Drackore comment about SNCO playing the "grooming" game by getting awards for their folks.... Two years ago, I sat on a qtrly NCO board as a judge with 4 other MSgts. We reviewed 3 packages, all from different flights. Two MSgts co-wrote one of the packages AND they were 1/2 the board. One POS MSgt of the two, went around and dug up every piece of information he could in an attempt to disprove the other two nominees bullets(hrs saved, $ saved, etc)... Those two basically railroaded the board and president into selecting their package. I tried to fight the good fight and was told to shut up and color. I left the meeting SMH and feeling like we just fucked one of the nominees cause he really deserved he award and they gave it another less deserving guy.

In my current Sq, again I judged the NCO board. We ended up with two that were basically tied. 2 of the 4 SNCOs wanted to give it to the guy with the higher PT score. I voiced a huge WTF does that have to do with this board?

Big Blue has created this machine and its full steam ahead. College, Volunteerism, filling squares.....its all a GD shame b/c we used to be awesome as the AF. Today, we are raping in record numbers, killing ourselves in record numbers and our Generals can't stay out of the news.
I sat on many boards as a MSgt where SMSgts and CMSgt out numbered the MSgts. I've seen the packages that were being "pushed" by a SMSgt or CMsgt when the individual clearly didn't deserve being selected. At boards where the SNCOs tried to bring in information not contained in the packages I would calmly remind them we can only consider the information contained in the package and if additional information was to be allowed then we would have to allow it for everyone considered. That usually ended the discussion immediately. When they ignored my advice and tried to introduce additional information I would calmly inform them if they did that then after the board finished I would meet with the squadron/group/wing senior enlisted member and tell them my concerns about the impartiality of the board. My threat wasn't a bluff and that was all it took to shut them up.

You don't need to be an asshole about it but you have to be and behave as the adult in the room.


Big Blue has created this machine and its full steam ahead. College, Volunteerism, filling squares.....its all a GD shame b/c we used to be awesome as the AF. Today, we are raping in record numbers, killing ourselves in record numbers and our Generals can't stay out of the news.
It's a leadership problem at all levels and you should expect to make or fight for adherence to standards at the level you have influence. The key is how you act that makes the difference. It's fine to be the guy who "bucks" the system to your troops but those who "buck" the system really don't make a difference in the long run. As I said above, you need to be the adult in the room to make changes. The military is a system that responds to authority, usually rank, in groups and people follow that authority. But even those in charge responds better to people who behave in an adult manner than someone who complains and "bucks" the system. By presenting a non-emotional, factual-based reasoning, you subliminally neutralize the imposed authority of the individual in charge and open them up to considering your point of view.

imnohero
12-22-2013, 07:20 PM
I sat on exactly one board during my entire career; as an NCO for the airman board. We did our thing, scored the packages, and when the wing SEA didn't get the result he wanted, he overrode the board and gave it to who he wanted to win. I mentioned after the award ceremony to my sq. chief that wasn't the winner the board chose. A couple days later my sq. chief called me in the office tells me the SEA is really pissed off and "cautioned me" to never talk about it again or there would be "repercusions."

I said, "Fine." and was never asked to participate in quarterly awards again (for 5 years). No skin off my nose.

BOSS302
12-22-2013, 10:02 PM
I would take a Vegas bet the Comm troop was black as well. It may sound like my remark is racist, it's not intended, I'm the furthest thing from that. But it sure doesn't make it right when it blatantly comes from the other direction. If she wasn't, then I'll gladly STFU.

I have no clue if she was, her name didn't give anything away & I never paid attention to who won at the Wing level and I didn't attend the award ceremonies or CC calls.

Big Blue
12-23-2013, 12:36 AM
I'm still amazed at the bitterness and maybe even naive thoughts. Do you really believe that when you hang up the uniform and walk out of the gate into your next career that you won't run into the same underhanded actions by others to get ahead? It's called life folks! There will always be those that are corrupt in the work environment no matter the employment. You can't act like the whole system is broke and throw your hands up. Thats great that some want to stick their principles and not submit themselves for awards. To each their own, but as long as you don't sell out and take care of your people I don't see why you should not try to better yourself and advance in your career. Admittedly, I felt weird submitting my own stuff at first, then I thought why not me? If I am legitimately taking care of business and relly bringing something to the fight for a particular qtr, why not throw mine and my Amn's name in for consideration. Whatever I am involved with on a group or wing level I always get my Amn involved so they can get that impact as well. So many people are bashing the booster clubs, etc but you have to look at the over all impact, ie where that $ are going. If i can raise funds to offset the books for an Amn via a scholarship awd then we as leaders gave back..not just as a bullet. Again, who knows if I make it, but think it's shallow thinking that Sr are Chief's puppets and that they ALLL got their by illegitimate means and not by SUSTAINED performance. I just know that I'll be able to right some wrongs down the line given the chance.

imnohero
12-23-2013, 01:24 AM
Wow, that's just about every excuse I've every heard for selling out on one's principles:

"that's life"
"everywhere/everyone is corrupt"
"you can't just quit"
"I don't see why not"
"why not me?"
"just throwing my own name in the hat"
"I can right the wrongs later"

Chief_KO
12-23-2013, 01:59 AM
Sat on close to a hundred boards (in person or virtual) over the last dozen years and probably chaired 20 or so. I never saw the approving authority (appropriate level commander) override the board's recommendation. I did have 2-3 times where the commander wanted to discuss it with me (as the board president). Each time it came down to the commander's bias towards a certain individuals achievements...however that level of impact was not written on the 1206. Once explained to the CC he agreed and maintained our recommendation. As a side note, he provided feedback to all his commanders (this was MSG/CC) on not leaving anything unsaid on the 1206, the importance of factual (and meaningful) numbers, and verbiage that is understood by the reader. Hint: A CE troop will not speak or understand COMM-speak and likewise.

Seen some really bad 1206s at the sq, gp, wg, naf, majcom, and even af levels. Sent a clear message to all on the boards that not much effort was put into writing...pretty much told the board "we had to submit, we really don't care"...

Also seen some pretty stupid things on a 1206. "single point of failure for xx system maintenance"...so you're telling me that this guy is the worst troubleshooter?? "cut xx by 160%"...so you're telling me he totally eliminated it (100%) and now we are turning a 60% profit?? MDG is typically the unit that "speeds" the most on 1206s IMO. Taking credit for immunization rates, appointments met, etc. when each unit CCF/CC/CCM and respective SNCOs/NCOs are the ones who make sure appointments/shots are good to go.

Chief_KO
12-23-2013, 02:13 AM
I should also add that when I made SMSgt I supervised zero personnel. I was a cube dweller at an DRU. Oh, and when I made CMSgt I also supervised zero personnel. So there is no truth to the urban legend (i.e. dorm lawyer or court of public opinion) that one must supervise a lot of people to make SMSgt/CMSgt. Also, I was not a PME award winner (except for HG at NCOPC as a SrA), was never a PME instructor (my NCOA experience soured me on that duty), nor did I have a bachelors or masters, just a couple of CCAFs (that I got AFTER becoming a tech school instructor).

SMSgt & CMSgt were never my goals as an Airman/NCO. I enjoyed most of my assignments, only had a couple of bad supervisors, had a lot of fun, saw a lot of things/places I never would have otherwise. I was happy (and proud) to make MSgt (at 18 years) and happier to not lose a stripe before that. I think those that are honestly driven to make SMSgt/CMSgt early on in their career end up one of two places: disappointed & bitter when it doesn't happen or an empty shell wearing E8 or E9 chevrons.

Big Blue
12-23-2013, 02:48 AM
Wow, that's just about every excuse I've every heard for selling out on one's principles:

"that's life"
"everywhere/everyone is corrupt"
"you can't just quit"
"I don't see why not"
"why not me?"
"just throwing my own name in the hat"
"I can't right the wrongs later"

Kind of took it out of context a little don't you think? And it was that I CAN right some wrongs within my sphere of influence. The whole point is most on here are saying you basically have to sell out to make the top 2 ranks and I disagree.

Big Blue
12-23-2013, 02:49 AM
I should also add that when I made SMSgt I supervised zero personnel. I was a cube dweller at an DRU. Oh, and when I made CMSgt I also supervised zero personnel. So there is no truth to the urban legend (i.e. dorm lawyer or court of public opinion) that one must supervise a lot of people to make SMSgt/CMSgt. Also, I was not a PME award winner (except for HG at NCOPC as a SrA), was never a PME instructor (my NCOA experience soured me on that duty), nor did I have a bachelors or masters, just a couple of CCAFs (that I got AFTER becoming a tech school instructor).

SMSgt & CMSgt were never my goals as an Airman/NCO. I enjoyed most of my assignments, only had a couple of bad supervisors, had a lot of fun, saw a lot of things/places I never would have otherwise. I was happy (and proud) to make MSgt (at 18 years) and happier to not lose a stripe before that. I think those that are honestly driven to make SMSgt/CMSgt early on in their career end up one of two places: disappointed & bitter when it doesn't happen or an empty shell wearing E8 or E9 chevrons.

I appreciate the solid feedback from someone thats been there/done it.

LogDog
12-23-2013, 03:03 AM
Sat on close to a hundred boards (in person or virtual) over the last dozen years and probably chaired 20 or so. I never saw the approving authority (appropriate level commander) override the board's recommendation. I did have 2-3 times where the commander wanted to discuss it with me (as the board president). Each time it came down to the commander's bias towards a certain individuals achievements...however that level of impact was not written on the 1206. Once explained to the CC he agreed and maintained our recommendation. As a side note, he provided feedback to all his commanders (this was MSG/CC) on not leaving anything unsaid on the 1206, the importance of factual (and meaningful) numbers, and verbiage that is understood by the reader. Hint: A CE troop will not speak or understand COMM-speak and likewise.

Seen some really bad 1206s at the sq, gp, wg, naf, majcom, and even af levels. Sent a clear message to all on the boards that not much effort was put into writing...pretty much told the board "we had to submit, we really don't care"...

Also seen some pretty stupid things on a 1206. "single point of failure for xx system maintenance"...so you're telling me that this guy is the worst troubleshooter?? "cut xx by 160%"...so you're telling me he totally eliminated it (100%) and now we are turning a 60% profit?? MDG is typically the unit that "speeds" the most on 1206s IMO. Taking credit for immunization rates, appointments met, etc. when each unit CCF/CC/CCM and respective SNCOs/NCOs are the ones who make sure appointments/shots are good to go.
Chief_KO, I too have never seen a commander at any level overrule the decision of a board. The problem with doing that is you have too many SNCO who know what the actual results are and they will surely be having words with their Group commander about it. I did sit on one group BTZ Board where we decided not to recommend anyone for SrA and the commander agreed with our decision.

As for the 1206s, too many of them are fluff and don't have any real meat showing accomplishments. I used to go through the 1206s a couple of days before the board met and I would put an "F" next to an item that was fluff and an "M" next to something that had meat. Then the day before the board I'd re-review the 1206s and see if there was something I didn't see on the first pass. Those packages with the most "M" was how I racked and stacked my choices. Off duty activities were lower on my rating scale and if off duty activities were too much then I look carefully at their AF duties to see if their focus was on performing their duties or off duty activities. The thing that impressed me more with the 1206 was when the individual had something in their package that actually compared them to established standards. Just saying they met or exceed standards wasn't enough, the 1206 had to tell me what they did, how they did it, and what the affect was on the mission, resources, or personnel was.

As for the MDG, having been Squadron and Group Superintendent of a MDG, you are correct. Most of the jobs in medical are really ho-hum and boring and it's hard to make someone look outstanding. There are just so many shots to be given, so many patients you can see, so many lab samples to test, etc... Some medical AFSCs can standout like those assigned to the Emergency Room and saving lives or treating emergency medical conditions is something most people can understand.

imnohero
12-23-2013, 04:03 AM
Kind of took it out of context a little don't you think? And it was that I CAN right some wrongs within my sphere of influence. The whole point is most on here are saying you basically have to sell out to make the top 2 ranks and I disagree.

Thanks for catching the typo. OK, you disagree. Maybe people think you have to "sell out" because most SNCO's do, at least in my experience, and I dare say that is the experience of others, as well. Is it mandatory, no. My point, out of context or not, is that you managed to included almost every rationalization for corruption in a single paragraph.

HMT
12-23-2013, 05:26 AM
It is time for you to get out///seriously.

Drackore
12-23-2013, 10:11 AM
Gotta stop with this "I disagree with you - you gotta get out, we don't need/want you" bullcrap.

Fucking idiot mentality. Everyone riding the same clown car on the same tracks will take us down the same road like a bunch of lemmings, and eventually all off the same cliff. I don't agree with everyone - but remember all that "diversity" talk?? It's what makes us better...right?

If we all though the exact same and agreed, then what? Talk about boring at the very, very least.

So get off that stick///seriously.

Rainmaker
12-23-2013, 03:15 PM
Well lots of opinions. I have mine...ya'll have yours. Kool aid drinkers will always have their blue lips and brown noses. Keep it. Enjoy your stripe - I don't need it.

What I need are real leaders, and the AF is lacking that. 25K gone in the next few years. Why? Because we can't manage ourselves. Still trading people for planes, even though we aren't advertising it as such. We didn't hold our contractors to task, let them go past deadlines and overbudget (Raptor...helllllooooo?) and viola...kick out Amn. Generals? How many? Why? Civilians? How many? WHY?!?! Contribute WHAT? Yea yea...blue kool aid answer - shove it. For every one civilian worth their weight in gold I can point out 10 worth their weight in shit.

Bitter? Fuck yes I am bitter. More than half my career has been spent in war time. That entire time we've been force shaping AND tossing Airmen to the Army because THEY ALSO can't fucking manage their personnel. I lost count on the number of times we changed the PT test to make it easier to use it as a means to force shape (oh wait, "save health care costs", no...it was "warrior mindset", no..it was, whatever the new cliche is).

Do you realize that these past four years is the longest in my entire career we've gone without a significant uniform change? Stop the presses...we actually have tradition now? We're catching up to the Marines! (note to the stupid - this is dripping with sarcasm)

Bake sales, checking blocks on EPRs that mean nothing about the job (sure we're supposedly changing this - how long did that take?), decs and awards. AWARDS. Let's talk about awards. Yes it's true - if *I* don't submit a 1206 guess what, no one will submit me....ever. And I do win, often. Yes I am quite capable of playing the game and keeping my mouth shut for a quarter here and there - but I play it on my terms. I don't do the bake sales or Booster Club bull...I do my own thing. Those bullets - mine. I had direct involvement. But if I don't write and submit, it never-ever happens. Sad, ain't it? Know what else is sad? When you see Amn and NCOs win from the same section time and time and time again. You younger folks wanna know why that happens? Because those folks winning goes on that SNCO's EPR. That pads their board score. THAT is why. Most deserving award winner? LOL...fuck no. We call that "grooming" in the SNCO biz. That is leadership grooming that particular MSgt/SMSgt for a high board score...so their EPR can say "Mentored X Amn/NCO sq/gp award winners - SMSgt board a must!" Did I just blow that wide open or what?

For you blue kool aid drinkers on this post - if you haven't experienced this, I envy you either for your luck of being assigned to bases that actually have integrity (doubt it) or your pure, sheer ignorance. Most likely you just turn a blind eye and jump on board and "play along". You're "on board" with your E9. Kissy kiss, eh?

And you're bullshit about "just get out" - fuck the hell off. That's YOUR easy way out, asshole. The AF needs bitter, crusty system buckers like me. I'm the mean fucking thorn in your goddamn side. I'm the guy taking that Amn and NCO to the IG when you break the AFI or the law. I'm the one that tap dances on the CC's desk yelling and screaming that you are unfit to lead because you are too busy looking out for yourself and not taking care of your people because they keep coming to ME. There is a god damn reason I get sent to the worst shops after they fire dirtbag SNCOs to fix them up. I might not be liked because of my "attitude", but I pride myself on getting results. When shit needs fix, they come to me every god damn time. Honestly, for once I'd love to go to a section that isn't broke just so I can enjoy myself.

Don't like what I typed, I don't like what some of you typed. Mine is cold hard truth. Your is most likely ate up bullshit fluff that I even question if you believe. Either way - we can agree on this: We're not going to change each other's minds over the internet. So accept it. I accept that you're full of shit. Maybe you just need to leave your cushy carpeted office and go get some *real talk* on with the boots on the ground and see what's up. Get back to your roots. 25K less people with the same fucking mission and responsibilities and ops tempo? You really think this isn't stressing people out? Are you even TALKING to people, or are you just forwarding/reciting those idiot emails that they've seen a dozen times? Edit: It's not just freaking out people that think they will get the boot. It's freaking out the people that believe they can actually stay in and have to do this job with so much less! What are you telling them? If your first thought in your head was "suck it up and deal with it" - YOU are the problem and YOU need to go because YOU fucking suck. That's biblical.

Be a leader, not a voicebox idiot. We've got enough of those from the very top down. The AF can NOT keep going the way it has been the past decade. This status quo, "it's always been this way" bullshit has failed. Wake up and see it before it truly slaps you in the face so hard you'll get a concussion. You don't have to be a bitter asshole like me to deal with it - but ya gotta deal with it eventually.

Drackore Speaking Truth to Power. NomSayin.

BOSS302
12-23-2013, 03:34 PM
Drackore Speaking Truth to Power. NomSayin.

And he wasn't racist.

WeaponsTSGT
12-23-2013, 03:55 PM
I'm still amazed at the bitterness and maybe even naive thoughts. Do you really believe that when you hang up the uniform and walk out of the gate into your next career that you won't run into the same underhanded actions by others to get ahead? It's called life folks! There will always be those that are corrupt in the work environment no matter the employment. You can't act like the whole system is broke and throw your hands up. Thats great that some want to stick their principles and not submit themselves for awards. To each their own, but as long as you don't sell out and take care of your people I don't see why you should not try to better yourself and advance in your career. Admittedly, I felt weird submitting my own stuff at first, then I thought why not me? If I am legitimately taking care of business and relly bringing something to the fight for a particular qtr, why not throw mine and my Amn's name in for consideration. Whatever I am involved with on a group or wing level I always get my Amn involved so they can get that impact as well. So many people are bashing the booster clubs, etc but you have to look at the over all impact, ie where that $ are going. If i can raise funds to offset the books for an Amn via a scholarship awd then we as leaders gave back..not just as a bullet. Again, who knows if I make it, but think it's shallow thinking that Sr are Chief's puppets and that they ALLL got their by illegitimate means and not by SUSTAINED performance. I just know that I'll be able to right some wrongs down the line given the chance.

This is the same idiotic, ignorant bullshit I've heard my entire career. I was a late enlistee, I did so with a family and a mortgage, I worked the civilian sector as an adult and this is utter bullshit. This might be so if you go the same path as many retirees and move into another government job where this attitude festers. As a non government employee you are required and expected to do what is in your job description, and then go home at the end of the day and live a life. You can say what you want but in my mind only a "look at me", egotistical douche would submit a package on themselves. I make it a point to keep an eye out for these individuals as airmen and make sure they aren't given any more opportunity then the guy/gal next to them.

Big Blue
12-23-2013, 06:38 PM
This is the same idiotic, ignorant bullshit I've heard my entire career. I was a late enlistee, I did so with a family and a mortgage, I worked the civilian sector as an adult and this is utter bullshit. This might be so if you go the same path as many retirees and move into another government job where this attitude festers. As a non government employee you are required and expected to do what is in your job description, and then go home at the end of the day and live a life. You can say what you want but in my mind only a "look at me", egotistical douche would submit a package on themselves. I make it a point to keep an eye out for these individuals as airmen and make sure they aren't given any more opportunity then the guy/gal next to them.
Again, way to take one word or two and take it out of context. I know that I take care of my airmen so you keep sitting on the sidelines and complaining about everybody else, system broke and "douchebags" and what's wrong with the AF and I'll keep taking care of the mission and succeeding. Call it drinking the "blue koolaid" but I know that I can play the "game" fairly if thats what u want to call it and still be respected by my peers/subordinates because I take care of them first.

BOSS302
12-23-2013, 07:06 PM
Again, way to take one word or two and take it out of context. I know that I take care of my airmen so you keep sitting on the sidelines and complaining about everybody else, system broke and "douchebags" and what's wrong with the AF and I'll keep taking care of the mission and succeeding. Call it drinking the "blue koolaid" but I know that I can play the "game" fairly if thats what u want to call it and still be respected by my peers/subordinates because I take care of them first.


http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/WGSK.vZWc3Vjcw5690QwAA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTQ0MA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/251/2013/07/01/gif-sourced---440-gif_223749.gif

Rizzo77
12-23-2013, 08:16 PM
Speak the truth, brother! Today's SNCO's are all about getting that next stripe and making themselves stand out from the rest by screwing their people. I have seen it countless times all over the Air Force. I'm sure there are still a few good ones out there, but not too many. Logic has been replaced by the "on board" mentality. I believe this is one of the main reasons why the Air Force is crumbling apart. I'm also sure that some SNCO who is part of the problem will get all defensive. Don't worry, I don't know any of you. Maybe you're the exception. This is strictly from my observations in my career, and there seems to be quite a few who agree.
I might add the perspective of an Army man that topped out at 1SG (Top, get it?). I wanted to be a Command Sergeant Major, but I guess I just didn't suck enough ass. Honestly, I was more concerned with taking care of Soldiers than I was with toeing the company line.

I don't mind that I retired as a 1SG, particularly following one of the most unexpected encounters in my life. I was a 1SG at Fort Meade, prior to a PCS to Fort Bragg. My Fort Bragg unit was next up for deployment. On the way to Afghanistan, we had a stop in Kuwait. Oddly enough, I ran into my former company training NCO from Fort Meade (she had PCS'd to Kuwait). As we reminisced, she mentioned that "the company went to shit after you left." I think that really just says it all; I'll keep that with me forever.

Big Blue
12-23-2013, 08:36 PM
http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/WGSK.vZWc3Vjcw5690QwAA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTQ0MA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/251/2013/07/01/gif-sourced---440-gif_223749.gif

BOSS, good one..made me laugh. Trust me, not trying to defend the self serving smucks out there. I do know that unfortunately many that get ahead do it by shady means. I also believe in karma and I recently saw one of the highest on the food chain where i'm stationed get swallowed up because he wanted cookie cutter of what he thought AF folks should be(of course it was himself). I truly think I am making a difference and if I don't make it thats fine too. I'm not "selling out" to get there either and know regardless that when I retire i'll have clean conscience. Our AF is at it's most fragile that I have seen in 20yrs just don't think being bitter will help matters like some are here. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on other points.

BRUWIN
12-23-2013, 09:33 PM
What did you do that put you over the top?

Thanks for the advice!

Nothing I wasn't doing my entire career....I just kept plugging away. Seriously...the only thing that ever delayed a promotion for me was people telling me I wouldn't make it and I listened. I learned quickly to stop listening.

BRUWIN
12-23-2013, 10:09 PM
Seriously, I was never a Top-III officer but was involved in a few activities (not fundraisers) that I thought were good uses of my free time and were what the Top-III was supposed to be doing. I did do one fundraiser...sold tickets for the Top-III's annual BBQ brisket sandwich fundraiser.

The only volunteering I can ever really claim I did for anything when was when I already was wearing Chief...and that was organizing the annual Chief's group golf tournament. Other than that i volunteered as a youth sports coach many times when it involved my boys but that was about it. If it on my epr great...and if it wasn't no biggie. Volunteering is totally overrated. It's not what gets one promoted.

BOSS302
12-23-2013, 11:24 PM
Nothing I wasn't doing my entire career....I just kept plugging away. Seriously...the only thing that ever delayed a promotion for me was people telling me I wouldn't make it and I listened. I learned quickly to stop listening.

Didn't you get promoted to Chief in the 70s?

Measure Man
12-23-2013, 11:26 PM
There is no big secret to making SMSgt. Anyone can do it who wants to do it in three easy steps:

1) Make MSgt quickly...this mostly involves studying. You either want it bad enough to put in the time or you don't. Making MSgt quickly will give you the time to make SMSgt. Also, even though making MSgt is all about studying the books...people assume if you make it quickly that you are actually a sharp NCO, good at the job and all that stuff, so it automatically puts you on the "top shelf". Of course, you have to do the mandatories like CCAF/PME

2) PCS as often as possible...some of those assignments will be great, some might suck, the important thing is to keep moving. That is, if you want promotion enough to uproot every 3 years or less.

3) Stay out of trouble...includes NOT getting UIFs, NOT failing PT, etc. If you do get a blemish, see #2.

Things today are a little different with lower HYT and all this SERB stuff...and the possibility of TIG/TIS points going away and all that...so I'm a little dated on that...but, in general, if you do those 3 things YOU can make SMSgt...maybe not at 15 years, maybe at 23 years, or whatever. If you want to make it quickly add 1 additional step:

4) Get PME awards.

There...now you're a fast burner.

fufu
12-24-2013, 01:27 AM
There is no big secret to making SMSgt. Anyone can do it who wants to do it in three easy steps:

1) Make MSgt quickly...this mostly involves studying. You either want it bad enough to put in the time or you don't. Making MSgt quickly will give you the time to make SMSgt. Also, even though making MSgt is all about studying the books...people assume if you make it quickly that you are actually a sharp NCO, good at the job and all that stuff, so it automatically puts you on the "top shelf". Of course, you have to do the mandatories like CCAF/PME

2) PCS as often as possible...some of those assignments will be great, some might suck, the important thing is to keep moving. That is, if you want promotion enough to uproot every 3 years or less.

3) Stay out of trouble...includes NOT getting UIFs, NOT failing PT, etc. If you do get a blemish, see #2.

Things today are a little different with lower HYT and all this SERB stuff...and the possibility of TIG/TIS points going away and all that...so I'm a little dated on that...but, in general, if you do those 3 things YOU can make SMSgt...maybe not at 15 years, maybe at 23 years, or whatever. If you want to make it quickly add 1 additional step:

4) Get PME awards.

There...now you're a fast burner.

I think that you cover just about everything....but I'll throw a few things in there.

1) Beyond your worthless CCAF, get two if you can and a bachelors.

2) While I disagree that someone has to PCS all the time to "experience different leadership styles" it seems to be highly valued by most board members. My old squadron had a score sheet to determine who was going to get groomed and who wasn't. You got points for every command and base assigned to in the last 10 years. I had 3 pts for the whole fucking spreadsheet...lol Needless to say, I was not the focus of grooming. PCSing is a necessary thing. I, on the other hand, feel that it is pretty much the same BS at all bases and you MUST like what you see when you look out the window. That's why I've been at base X 8.5 years and my control tour ends when I hit my 10yr TOS anniversary.

3) More importantly, if you do get in trouble..bounce back and do it hard. Show those that have an influence you accept your failure and are willing to work hard to right your wrongs. I've seen more people rewarded that had a rocky past than I can count....but they all had to pay the price. And, yes once fixed PCS, b/c there will always be those that refuse to acknowledge your hard work. I know a guy that made senior 3 yrs after failing two PT tests.

4) Not just PME awards, but any award is going to help you. Winning ONE award can result in winning MULTIPLE awards...Flt NCO of the Month, Sq NCO of the Month, GP NCO of the Month, Wg NCO of the Month...Sq/GP NCO of the Yr. All count for something, but you have to win the first one. I've won one award in 14.5 yrs....and it was one year ago.

I've all but given up hope that I'm not going to make Senior by my 18th yr of service. I sewed on MSgt at 12 yrs and I've got nothing to that is needed to make Senior: 1 award ever, 4 dec pts The only thing I have going is that I completed my CCAF/CRS 14 as a TSgt. Otherwise, I got nothing. 3 Chiefs have told me that I have no shot at making it unless I hang around till after 20 trying to make it. Honestly, at this point IDK what to do...I mean I haven't gotten a feedback in 7 yrs now and always thought I was I doing the correct things. But I burned a few bridges along the way...no doubt.

Either way, I can't control my board score. So, I save money, work on my bachelors and plan to retire in 5 yrs.

Measure Man
12-24-2013, 03:46 AM
I think that you cover just about everything....but I'll throw a few things in there.

1) Beyond your worthless CCAF, get two if you can and a bachelors.

The first CCAF is the only one that is really necessary...sure you can go above and beyond and do better...but for the most part CCAF is a go/no-go deal.


2) While I disagree that someone has to PCS all the time to "experience different leadership styles" it seems to be highly valued by most board members. My old squadron had a score sheet to determine who was going to get groomed and who wasn't. You got points for every command and base assigned to in the last 10 years. I had 3 pts for the whole fucking spreadsheet...lol Needless to say, I was not the focus of grooming. PCSing is a necessary thing. I, on the other hand, feel that it is pretty much the same BS at all bases and you MUST like what you see when you look out the window. That's why I've been at base X 8.5 years and my control tour ends when I hit my 10yr TOS anniversary.

I wasn't trying to argue the "right" or "wrong" of it...just the effect. PCSing often is great for your board score. We can argue all night as to whether it is right or not...and the end of the day, if someone really wants to make SMSgt, they should PCS often.

That's not to say it can't be done without PCSing...I knew a CMSgt who spent his entire 30 year career at one base...so there are definitely exceptions, especially dependent on career field, if you are attached to one aircraft, or space mission, for example.


3) More importantly, if you do get in trouble..bounce back and do it hard. Show those that have an influence you accept your failure and are willing to work hard to right your wrongs. I've seen more people rewarded that had a rocky past than I can count....but they all had to pay the price. And, yes once fixed PCS, b/c there will always be those that refuse to acknowledge your hard work. I know a guy that made senior 3 yrs after failing two PT tests.

Roger that...the quicker you get it behind you, the better off you'll be.


4) Not just PME awards, but any award is going to help you. Winning ONE award can result in winning MULTIPLE awards...Flt NCO of the Month, Sq NCO of the Month, GP NCO of the Month, Wg NCO of the Month...Sq/GP NCO of the Yr. All count for something, but you have to win the first one. I've won one award in 14.5 yrs....and it was one year ago.

Those other awards help a little...but there are so many of them out there that they get somewhat diluted. The big equalizer, IME, is PME awards...score wood at the SNCOA and you are golden. Icing on the cake is you get back to your base and that PME award alone pretty much sews you up for at least a sq. quarterly award and likely a group or wing.


I've all but given up hope that I'm not going to make Senior by my 18th yr of service. I sewed on MSgt at 12 yrs and I've got nothing to that is needed to make Senior: 1 award ever, 4 dec pts The only thing I have going is that I completed my CCAF/CRS 14 as a TSgt. Otherwise, I got nothing. 3 Chiefs have told me that I have no shot at making it unless I hang around till after 20 trying to make it. Honestly, at this point IDK what to do...I mean I haven't gotten a feedback in 7 yrs now and always thought I was I doing the correct things. But I burned a few bridges along the way...no doubt.

Well, most SMSgts make it after 20. So, nothing wrong with that...you made MSgt fast, so you have time. If they do change the TIG/TIS pts, then it's hard to predict what the new dynamic will be. Yeah, you are lacking dec pts, probably due to not following #2 above. Again, it's how bad do you want...bad enough to volunteer to do a couple short tours?


Either way, I can't control my board score. So, I save money, work on my bachelors and plan to retire in 5 yrs.

Nothing wrong with that either...again it's just a matter of what you want. If you are thinking of the financial aspect...promotion to SMSgt and CMSgt are the two largest raises of your career.

The retirement check of a 30 year CMSgt is roughly double that of a 20 year MSgt...

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 12:36 AM
Thanks Measure Man for the nuggets^^^. Well, we can now add the upcoming retention boards as to why some won't make it, ha ha. Curious to see how much this drawdown will affect the promotion rate...find out in a few months!!

BUDJR8
12-31-2013, 01:54 AM
The retentions boards could actually help some make it, depending on who they weed out. I'll be going before a board as well, but like my chances. Worst case scenario they force me to retire and I'll have what, 120 days or so to make plans? Maybe some will take the bait and retire early and void some boards for certain AFSCs. Time will tell.

Airborne
12-31-2013, 04:06 AM
The retentions boards could actually help some make it, depending on who they weed out. I'll be going before a board as well, but like my chances. Worst case scenario they force me to retire and I'll have what, 120 days or so to make plans? Maybe some will take the bait and retire early and void some boards for certain AFSCs. Time will tell.

Im not one for semantics and I know it's normal AF parlance, but you as a human arent actually going before a board. Just some papers that represent you. How many people would shit their pants if they actual had to look decent in uniform and do a reporting statement and physically represent themselves in front of someone else who held their career in their hands? Only happens in the corporate world. While a lot of people say the AF has gone corporate, we arent there yet.

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 04:16 AM
Im not one for semantics and I know it's normal AF parlance, but you as a human arent actually going before a board. Just some papers that represent you. How many people would shit their pants if they actual had to look decent in uniform and do a reporting statement and physically represent themselves in front of someone else who held their career in their hands? Only happens in the corporate world. While a lot of people say the AF has gone corporate, we arent there yet.
Almost had me spit out my beer on this one, ha ha. Could you imagine them having mock boards (like they for for BTZ) for retention purposes? Half probably couldn't get reporting statement out....next! Ha!

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 04:19 AM
Regardless, the results will be out in March so most will know then if they are potentially on the chopping block down the road. Not really the way most envisioned their career ending...think we all took HYT for granted as an always available option. That's with passing pt of course!!!

VCO
12-31-2013, 10:52 AM
Maybe that's because of where you work, I would be willing to bet that it's pretty common across the AF. You have a pretty optimistic view of where we're at and where we're going, you also seem to have a quick "oh you're not doing it right", holier than thou come back for many of the posters on this site. For your first post on this thread I can tell you that you and I have had MSgt on for around the same amount of time, however you strike me as a "fast burner". That being said it's clear as day to many why the AF likes the fast burner, they aren't as beat down, they don't have enough experience to say bullshit, and they've been to PME recently and can regurgitate the stupidity they were taught. I could be wrong and you could be a current or former PME instructor, but either way you're coming across as a douche.

Yeah, I get that sometimes.

VCO
12-31-2013, 10:57 AM
Gotta stop with this "I disagree with you - you gotta get out, we don't need/want you" bullcrap.

Fucking idiot mentality. Everyone riding the same clown car on the same tracks will take us down the same road like a bunch of lemmings, and eventually all off the same cliff. I don't agree with everyone - but remember all that "diversity" talk?? It's what makes us better...right?

If we all though the exact same and agreed, then what? Talk about boring at the very, very least.

So get off that stick///seriously.

Nothing wrong with disagreement, and that isn't why folks think you should get the fuck out. It is the negative way your posts are worded. Hopefully this is just you venting and not how you manage your section.

Sergeant eNYgma
12-31-2013, 02:20 PM
I've never seen posts as real as what I'm reading right now this thread is legendary!!!!!!

And yes I'm about done with the AF to. Will start school soon want to finish 4 year degree soon as I can and reassess where I'm at.

Sergeant eNYgma
12-31-2013, 03:06 PM
I think that you cover just about everything....but I'll throw a few things in there.

1) Beyond your worthless CCAF, get two if you can and a bachelors.

2) While I disagree that someone has to PCS all the time to "experience different leadership styles" it seems to be highly valued by most board members. My old squadron had a score sheet to determine who was going to get groomed and who wasn't. You got points for every command and base assigned to in the last 10 years. I had 3 pts for the whole fucking spreadsheet...lol Needless to say, I was not the focus of grooming. PCSing is a necessary thing. I, on the other hand, feel that it is pretty much the same BS at all bases and you MUST like what you see when you look out the window. That's why I've been at base X 8.5 years and my control tour ends when I hit my 10yr TOS anniversary.

3) More importantly, if you do get in trouble..bounce back and do it hard. Show those that have an influence you accept your failure and are willing to work hard to right your wrongs. I've seen more people rewarded that had a rocky past than I can count....but they all had to pay the price. And, yes once fixed PCS, b/c there will always be those that refuse to acknowledge your hard work. I know a guy that made senior 3 yrs after failing two PT tests.

4) Not just PME awards, but any award is going to help you. Winning ONE award can result in winning MULTIPLE awards...Flt NCO of the Month, Sq NCO of the Month, GP NCO of the Month, Wg NCO of the Month...Sq/GP NCO of the Yr. All count for something, but you have to win the first one. I've won one award in 14.5 yrs....and it was one year ago.

I've all but given up hope that I'm not going to make Senior by my 18th yr of service. I sewed on MSgt at 12 yrs and I've got nothing to that is needed to make Senior: 1 award ever, 4 dec pts The only thing I have going is that I completed my CCAF/CRS 14 as a TSgt. Otherwise, I got nothing. 3 Chiefs have told me that I have no shot at making it unless I hang around till after 20 trying to make it. Honestly, at this point IDK what to do...I mean I haven't gotten a feedback in 7 yrs now and always thought I was I doing the correct things. But I burned a few bridges along the way...no doubt.

Either way, I can't control my board score. So, I save money, work on my bachelors and plan to retire in 5 yrs.

But guys like me have tried to PCS and it just doesn't happen...I've tried and tried and tried. How bad do we get penalized for trying to and the assignment falling through for w/e reason?

fufu
12-31-2013, 03:11 PM
But guys like me have tried to PCS and it just doesn't happen...I've tried and tried and tried. How bad do we get penalized for trying to and the assignment falling through for w/e reason?

I wouldn't know...I've been here 9 years(almost).... Again I've tried a number of times w/out success.

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 04:47 PM
But guys like me have tried to PCS and it just doesn't happen...I've tried and tried and tried. How bad do we get penalized for trying to and the assignment falling through for w/e reason?

On that same note, I've tried multiple times in my career to go do a special duty and career broaden but always get turned down due to career field shortages. I think that ought to be reflected somewhere as well or it looks like one is content to stovepipe in his or her AFSC. So I'm guessing worldwide remote isn't an option for your job?

fufu
12-31-2013, 04:52 PM
That shouldnt be the only way out. I mean im not voluntarily leaving my family just to move. And im not taking my family to some shit hole accompanied short either. Just remember, the AF isnt forever, family is the most important thing.

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 06:19 PM
I had my dream sheet updated for yrs for reg overseas assignments and no bites. Took a non vol to Korea to get the ship moving. BUT, as much as I missed my family, I did make that year a success since I was there anyways(awds,etc) and it automatically resulted in PCS medals. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I do make it this cycle I may end up on the short list again as a non vol. They know they have you at that point. I think that is why some know when it is time to punch because they have sacrificed all they and their particular family can take. Good luck!

WeaponsTSGT
12-31-2013, 06:46 PM
But guys like me have tried to PCS and it just doesn't happen...I've tried and tried and tried. How bad do we get penalized for trying to and the assignment falling through for w/e reason?

Some career fields that's the norm, and if that's your norm then it shouldn't matter. However, if others within your career field are able to PCS then I wouldn't see why you wouldn't be able to. I can think of very few AFSC's that don't have a remote, there are also special remotes that show up on equals plus from time to time. I'm retiring shortly but here is a list of my PCS's not including basic/tech school.

D.M. AFB AZ
Osan AB ROK
Luke AFB AZ
Recruiter 4 years
Cannon AFB NM
Ellsworth AFB SD
Al Udied AB(short tour credit)
Osan AB ROk
Elmendorf AFB

I have moved on average every 2.5 years, I had set myself up for success but no longer want to stay around. If I had known then what I know now I would of homesteaded at Ellsworth.

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 09:16 PM
Some career fields that's the norm, and if that's your norm then it shouldn't matter. However, if others within your career field are able to PCS then I wouldn't see why you wouldn't be able to. I can think of very few AFSC's that don't have a remote, there are also special remotes that show up on equals plus from time to time. I'm retiring shortly but here is a list of my PCS's not including basic/tech school.

D.M. AFB AZ
Osan AB ROK
Luke AFB AZ
Recruiter 4 years
Cannon AFB NM
Ellsworth AFB SD
Al Udied AB(short tour credit)
Osan AB ROk
Elmendorf AFB

I have moved on average every 2.5 years, I had set myself up for success but no longer want to stay around. If I had known then what I know now I would of homesteaded at Ellsworth.

Impressive, puts my 7 bases to shame. To be able to move and reestablish yourself at all those places, I'm sure you were successful and would definitely look favorably for the board. Visited Ellsworth this summer and thought the place was great! Wouldn't mind being stationed there.

Chief_KO
12-31-2013, 09:21 PM
On that same note, I've tried multiple times in my career to go do a special duty and career broaden but always get turned down due to career field shortages. I think that ought to be reflected somewhere as well or it looks like one is content to stovepipe in his or her AFSC. So I'm guessing worldwide remote isn't an option for your job?

Q? How hard are you trying to get an assignment? Is your AFSC at OS short tour/remote bases? I've known people who are "trying to get an assignment" by putting down Ramstein, Elemndorf, Kadena, etc. instead of Osan, Kunsan, Incirlik, Lajes, etc. Yeah you will be away from family...but only for a year or 15 months, and good chance for a follow on to big base USAFE or PACAF with family.

Q? Who is turning down your SD applications? Your CFM or is it at the unit/MAJCOM level. My experience is a lot of local FMs deny (which they can't do) or talk Airmen out of it (one of the drivers behind the new SD program).

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 09:27 PM
Q? How hard are you trying to get an assignment? Is your AFSC at OS short tour/remote bases? I've known people who are "trying to get an assignment" by putting down Ramstein, Elemndorf, Kadena, etc. instead of Osan, Kunsan, Incirlik, Lajes, etc. Yeah you will be away from family...but only for a year or 15 months, and good chance for a follow on to big base USAFE or PACAF with family.

Q? Who is turning down your SD applications? Your CFM or is it at the unit/MAJCOM level. My experience is a lot of local FMs deny (which they can't do) or talk Airmen out of it (one of the drivers behind the new SD program).

Originally the MAJCOM level for initial tries but my last try which was almost three yrs ago was AFPC. I am now out of the window for SD(over 20) which is fine but would be nice that is was reflected that I at least tried. I think it will all work out regardless for me.

HMT
12-31-2013, 10:07 PM
What are you getting your master's degree in? Your post would make sense without the "choice" words. Your negativity will only follow you after the AF, and I know the competition in the civilian sector will be much like the AF....

Airborne
12-31-2013, 11:47 PM
That shouldnt be the only way out. I mean im not voluntarily leaving my family just to move. And im not taking my family to some shit hole accompanied short either. Just remember, the AF isnt forever, family is the most important thing.

I agree. Really 20-25 years is a very short blip on a lifetime's radar. If your kid has to go to a shitty school in Clovis and/or your wife has a kick ass job in Las Vegas and cant make the same money at Edwards or overseas just so you can be a frikkin E-8 its not particularly worth it in the grandest scheme of things. Ive been approached to be groomed and mentored to be an E8 and while I havent resisted when I dont drink the PCS and volunteer kool aid I just mention my wifes job and how many properties I own and people sheepishly walk the other direction.

BRUWIN
12-31-2013, 11:52 PM
Didn't you get promoted to Chief in the 70s?

HAHA...I wasn't even in the AF in the 70s. I came in and 1982. And strangely...it was about that time the AF became a well respected institution. May be coincidence...may not be.

Chief_KO
01-01-2014, 12:43 AM
HAHA...I wasn't even in the AF in the 70s. I came in and 1982. And strangely...it was about that time the AF became a well respected institution. May be coincidence...may not be.
Totally agree...October 6 to be exact is the day the AF made a quantum leap forward.

LogDog
01-01-2014, 05:18 AM
HAHA...I wasn't even in the AF in the 70s. I came in and 1982. And strangely...it was about that time the AF became a well respected institution. May be coincidence...may not be.
I entered in January 1975 so it took my group about seven years to bring it up to your standards.

Big Blue
01-01-2014, 07:12 PM
Bruwin, Chief KO, Log Dog, you guys crack me up! Your humor makes these boards..Yes, AF has been going to hell in a hand basket with your departures :-)

John Jameson
01-01-2014, 07:17 PM
I made SMSgt because I was sq Top-3 president, sq SNCO of the year, was on the wing "holiday" party planning committee and got a wing strat. I stopped doing that crap and my career ended at SMSgt. True story.

LogDog
01-01-2014, 07:30 PM
Bruwin, Chief KO, Log Dog, you guys crack me up! Your humor makes these boards..Yes, AF has been going to hell in a hand basket with your departures :-)
I heard the AF was going to hell in a hand basket when I entered, throughout my career, and after I retired and yet it is still there. It's the same time of thinking from SNCOs complaining about the decline in quality of airmen entering the AF. Both complaints have continued and yet the AF is still here.

BRUWIN
01-01-2014, 08:46 PM
Totally agree...October 6 to be exact is the day the AF made a quantum leap forward.

I came in 6 months earlier....4 May 82. I shall refer to you from this point on as "Rookie".....or "Rook" for short.

BOSS302
01-01-2014, 09:16 PM
I came in 6 months earlier....4 May 82. I shall refer to you from this point on as "Rookie".....or "Rook" for short.


http://static.tumblr.com/pebu1nl/gMRm58o53/loki_ooooh.gif

Big Blue
01-01-2014, 09:53 PM
I came in 6 months earlier....4 May 82. I shall refer to you from this point on as "Rookie".....or "Rook" for short.

Watch out.."Rookie" may be considered a form of hazing. We may have to check how this affects the organization climate :-)

Chief_KO
01-01-2014, 10:00 PM
I came in 6 months earlier....4 May 82. I shall refer to you from this point on as "Rookie".....or "Rook" for short.

I clearly remember that first night, after about 4 hours of "pick-em up / put-em down" our TI sat us down in the dayroom...he told us story after story of a flight he had back in May. Said "they were the best, you guys couldn't even hold a Lackland Laser in comparison; they all folded their underwear in precise 5" squares with edges so sharp they used them for shaving, they mastered the confidence course in 15 minutes, rocked their BCGs (and broke the hearts of the females) in the Chapel each Sunday, never had soap scum in the shower, and used only one sink, one urinal, & one toilet the entire time."
He said it broke his heart that he couldn't give each the BMT honor grad ribbon. I always wondered over the last 30 years if I would ever get the opportunity to meet one of those Airmen, now my life is complete!:applause:

Sincerely,
Rook

Chief_KO
01-01-2014, 10:07 PM
Bruwin, Chief KO, Log Dog, you guys crack me up! Your humor makes these boards..Yes, AF has been going to hell in a hand basket with your departures :-)

That's why I got by Blue ID card as soon as I could. I figured if I waited too long the whole place would be shut down...

Big Blue
01-01-2014, 10:15 PM
While I do see myself serving for a few more years, I also daydream of the day that I too will become part of the Blue Card Mafia! Lofty Goals!

LogDog
01-01-2014, 11:37 PM
That's why I got by Blue ID card as soon as I could. I figured if I waited too long the whole place would be shut down...
We we joined we got the blue uniform. After a couple of years in we went to PME courses and got re-blued. When we retired, we got the blue ID card. Getting the blue ID card was the best of the three.

OtisRNeedleman
01-02-2014, 12:04 AM
Watch out.."Rookie" may be considered a form of hazing. We may have to check how this affects the organization climate :-)

In today's AF, even farting sideways affects the "organizational climate".

In other news, been retired 15 years today from the AF. I miss my AAF (Adult Air Force).

Chief_KO
01-02-2014, 12:33 AM
In today's AF, even farting sideways affects the "organizational climate".

In other news, been retired 15 years today from the AF. I miss my AAF (Adult Air Force).

Happy Anniversary!! We need to create a "military retired anniversary gift listing" like the married anniversary one.

Juggs
01-02-2014, 01:01 AM
I came in 6 months earlier....4 May 82. I shall refer to you from this point on as "Rookie".....or "Rook" for short.

Ha I was born 4 may 82

Chief_KO
01-02-2014, 01:26 AM
Ha I was born 4 may 82

I've got a state bowling tournament towel older than you!

Juggs
01-02-2014, 01:27 AM
I've got a state bowling tournament towel older than you!

Not surprised.

Chief_KO
01-02-2014, 01:31 AM
Not surprised.:stooges:

LogDog
01-02-2014, 03:34 AM
Ha I was born 4 may 82
I have a pair of shirts older than you.

fufu
01-02-2014, 02:55 PM
Q? How hard are you trying to get an assignment? Is your AFSC at OS short tour/remote bases? I've known people who are "trying to get an assignment" by putting down Ramstein, Elemndorf, Kadena, etc. instead of Osan, Kunsan, Incirlik, Lajes, etc. Yeah you will be away from family...but only for a year or 15 months, and good chance for a follow on to big base USAFE or PACAF with family.

Again, I don't understand this mentality. It sounds very careerist to me. Deploying is one thing, its part of the job. But, I don't understand willingly leaving your family just to PCS. I fought for an opening that popped up on the equal plus. I made call after call to AFPC, b/c I met all the requirements but one. I did'nt get the orders. So again, I've been here awhile and we are 73% manned for control 7s. I don't see myself going anywhere, anytime soon. We are authorized 8 - 7 levels. We have 1 retiring, 1 seperating and 1 PT seperation in the next 6 months.

Sergeant eNYgma
01-02-2014, 03:01 PM
On that same note, I've tried multiple times in my career to go do a special duty and career broaden but always get turned down due to career field shortages. I think that ought to be reflected somewhere as well or it looks like one is content to stovepipe in his or her AFSC. So I'm guessing worldwide remote isn't an option for your job?

It is actually, I had an assignment to Korea but it was cancelled for medical reasons. I'm good to go now and am trying to get it back...just been harder then I thought it would be. I think they're trying to get my a deployment tasking so hopefully completing that will shake things up so to speak.

Big Blue
01-02-2014, 10:47 PM
It is actually, I had an assignment to Korea but it was cancelled for medical reasons. I'm good to go now and am trying to get it back...just been harder then I thought it would be. I think they're trying to get my a deployment tasking so hopefully completing that will shake things up so to speak.

Good Luck on getting that assignment. Also, sometimes even remotes are hard to get because every other Tom, Dick, and Harry at bad bases are trying to jump ship as well. Again, my Korea tour was non vol but I think it opened doors for me...all in what you want. If I pick up the stripe this cycle then base #8 here I come and actually looking foward to it. Hang in there!

Chief_KO
01-03-2014, 03:32 AM
Again, I don't understand this mentality. It sounds very careerist to me. Deploying is one thing, its part of the job. But, I don't understand willingly leaving your family just to PCS. I fought for an opening that popped up on the equal plus. I made call after call to AFPC, b/c I met all the requirements but one. I did'nt get the orders. So again, I've been here awhile and we are 73% manned for control 7s. I don't see myself going anywhere, anytime soon. We are authorized 8 - 7 levels. We have 1 retiring, 1 seperating and 1 PT seperation in the next 6 months.

Call it careerist if you like. Virtually everyone who does 20+ years will have to pull a remote, why not do it on your own terms? The line of people trying to go to the "good OS assignments" (Hawaii, Germany, Alaska) is long...the line of people volunteering to go the "bad OS assignments" (Korea, Turkey) is short. USAF loves to give people COTs (not to make you happy, but to save PCS $). You can deploy for 6 mos or 12 mos (which we all know is longer counting the training), or you can PCS to a remote...both take you away from family and both have perks. The sooner one realizes how they can take control of their career, the happier they can be. My first three assignments were the AF's choices, the last nine were my choices.

Measure Man
01-03-2014, 04:15 AM
we are 73% manned for control 7s. I don't see myself going anywhere, anytime soon. We are authorized 8 - 7 levels. We have 1 retiring, 1 seperating and 1 PT seperation in the next 6 months.

Your stateside base manning has no impact on your ability to get an overseas assignment.

Except maybe in very rare cases. (there is always an exception)

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
01-03-2014, 10:12 AM
Call it careerist if you like. Virtually everyone who does 20+ years will have to pull a remote, why not do it on your own terms? The line of people trying to go to the "good OS assignments" (Hawaii, Germany, Alaska) is long...the line of people volunteering to go the "bad OS assignments" (Korea, Turkey) is short. USAF loves to give people COTs (not to make you happy, but to save PCS $). You can deploy for 6 mos or 12 mos (which we all know is longer counting the training), or you can PCS to a remote...both take you away from family and both have perks. The sooner one realizes how they can take control of their career, the happier they can be. My first three assignments were the AF's choices, the last nine were my choices.

Turkey is a great, accompanied (or unaccompanied), short tour location. I take it you have never been there?

Chief_KO
01-03-2014, 11:08 AM
Turkey is a great, accompanied (or unaccompanied), short tour location. I take it you have never been there?

I used Korea and Turkey as just examples of "bad" OS assignments. There are people who hate Hawaii & Germany, and love Turkey & Korea. Point is to volunteer for that OS remote on your terms rather that wait for the AF to tag you on their terms, then apply for that COT to the place you want to be. Fresh starts, new experiences, probability of a PCS decorations...call it "careerist" but those are the truths.
For the record, never been to Turkey, did my OS at Korea (5 years total), Guam (27 months), Lajes (2 years).

Sergeant eNYgma
01-03-2014, 12:46 PM
Call it careerist if you like. Virtually everyone who does 20+ years will have to pull a remote, why not do it on your own terms? The line of people trying to go to the "good OS assignments" (Hawaii, Germany, Alaska) is long...the line of people volunteering to go the "bad OS assignments" (Korea, Turkey) is short. USAF loves to give people COTs (not to make you happy, but to save PCS $). You can deploy for 6 mos or 12 mos (which we all know is longer counting the training), or you can PCS to a remote...both take you away from family and both have perks. The sooner one realizes how they can take control of their career, the happier they can be. My first three assignments were the AF's choices, the last nine were my choices.

This is how I feel, I don't mind doing the remotes and all that I really don't. Just have had crapppy luck. I love my family of course but the wife knows what's going by now if I have to go I have to go. She didn't like the fact that I got the Korea assignment but she was DAMN sure excited when I got Aviano as a follow on. I don't mind getting the remotes, deployments, any of that out the way if it'll help me get further because everything I earn is not just for me.

AF2017
01-03-2014, 12:50 PM
I would never volunteer for a remote. Love my kids too much. If I get selected, I get selected. Plus, no guarantee that'll you'll get your follow on. I've known too many people who did remotes and do to Air Force manning issues, went to some crap locations (Cannon, Laughlin, Minot) after Korea.

fufu
01-03-2014, 02:04 PM
I would never volunteer for a remote. Love my kids too much. If I get selected, I get selected. Plus, no guarantee that'll you'll get your follow on. I've known too many people who did remotes and do to Air Force manning issues, went to some crap locations (Cannon, Laughlin, Minot) after Korea.

^^This.

There is a TSgt here that wanted out, so he volunteered for Korea...got a follow-on to Germany. AFPC canx those orders near the end of his Korea tour and he came back here. LOL

fufu
01-03-2014, 02:04 PM
Turkey is a great, accompanied (or unaccompanied), short tour location. I take it you have never been there?

Can't go there.....for shorts only Osan/Kunsan.

fufu
01-03-2014, 02:07 PM
Your stateside base manning has no impact on your ability to get an overseas assignment.

Except maybe in very rare cases. (there is always an exception)

The issue I'm having is my entire career field is overmanned. I keep a pretty close eye on the Equal and the manning at the bases we would like to go. Problem arises when they are all 100% manned. In 2013, our Overseas Equal had two openings ALL year for MSgts. Tells me that just about nobody is moving....

I have a unique circumstance that makes picking up and going anywhere pretty difficult.

Measure Man
01-03-2014, 03:19 PM
The issue I'm having is my entire career field is overmanned. I keep a pretty close eye on the Equal and the manning at the bases we would like to go. Problem arises when they are all 100% manned. In 2013, our Overseas Equal had two openings ALL year for MSgts. Tells me that just about nobody is moving....

Yes, that could be a possibility. My point was that selection for assignments is based off a number of factors...time-on-station, last short tour return date, rank, AFSC....but the manning at your current stateside base is generally not a factor that would prevent you from getting an assignment, unless the CC threw a code on you or something. So whether your buddies at your base are retireing, separating, does not matter...it doesn't matter if base X is 180% manned and Base y is 35% manned...if the most eligible volunteer is at base y, he is getting selected. If there are no volunteers and the most eligible non-vol is at base y, he is still getting selected.

They will look at your base (MAJCOM actually) manning when bringing people back from overseas


I have a unique circumstance that makes picking up and going anywhere pretty difficult.

It is what it is. Don't get too wrapped up thinking you can't possibly get promoted without PCSing...that is just a general rule, it's not the only way.

pocketkings
01-08-2014, 11:03 AM
Call it careerist if you like. Virtually everyone who does 20+ years will have to pull a remote, why not do it on your own terms? The line of people trying to go to the "good OS assignments" (Hawaii, Germany, Alaska) is long...the line of people volunteering to go the "bad OS assignments" (Korea, Turkey) is short. USAF loves to give people COTs (not to make you happy, but to save PCS $). You can deploy for 6 mos or 12 mos (which we all know is longer counting the training), or you can PCS to a remote...both take you away from family and both have perks. The sooner one realizes how they can take control of their career, the happier they can be. My first three assignments were the AF's choices, the last nine were my choices.

This is my way of thinking as well. Do that remote tour on your own terms instead of being notified at your 18 year mark for a non vol tour. Been in 14 years with 5 bases and have chosen each base on my own terms with the exception of the first one (out of basic). All bases had it's pros and cons but I really can not complain about the following bases...Langley, Lackland, Nellis, Kunsan, Germany! Next base, and possibly last, will be in Florida.

LogDog
01-08-2014, 06:30 PM
This is my way of thinking as well. Do that remote tour on your own terms instead of being notified at your 18 year mark for a non vol tour. Been in 14 years with 5 bases and have chosen each base on my own terms with the exception of the first one (out of basic). All bases had it's pros and cons but I really can not complain about the following bases...Langley, Lackland, Nellis, Kunsan, Germany! Next base, and possibly last, will be in Florida.
I agree with you on choosing when to do a remote tour on your terms. I was at Cannon for four years and overall I didn't mind it but my superintendent, who was there before I arrived, was becoming a pain in butte simply because he could. I put in for Osan and got the assignment and it got me out of Cannon. It turned out to be a good assignment and it got me an 11-month assignment at a closure stateside. Because we were a closure base and it was a mandatory PCS we moved to the top of the overseas list if we wanted it. I put in for Germany and got it and then was able to move on to England.

If you can work the assignment process to your advantage, do it.

Chief_KO
01-08-2014, 06:55 PM
There are other jobs on EQUAL Plus that a lot of folks don't look at. If I were seriously looking to move, I would search for my AFSC (one rank up/one rank down) and do likewise for all the 8 SDIs. There are postal, defense courier, attaches, etc. that a lot of people never consider.

EQUAL Plus updates weekly and the job ads must be there for a full week, sometimes there are OS jobs that pop up out of cycle due to incumbent vacancy or slated inbound not getting there. Check every Tuesday would be my advice.

Big Blue
01-09-2014, 01:22 AM
Good info being passed out. I never stopped to realize the impact that PCS'ing has in regards to the Board score. I just always knew that homesteading was frowned upon and wanted to see as much of the AF as I could. It does however make perfect sense if one can excel at various places/different leadership/mission sets on a consistent basis that you are able to establish your credibility. Have 4 bases reflected within my current 10 yr snapshot..we shall see. Excellent point by all to hit Korea on your terms! In many career fields it's not IF it is WHEN so do it when you and the family decide is the right time. Did I miss my family terribly? ABSOLUTELY! BUT, you would be surprised at how resilient you and your family can become when faced with such things. Also, having a great Overseas assignment on the back end sure was exciting as a carrot at the end of the stick! Best of luck!!

Big Blue
01-10-2014, 10:48 PM
Speaking of SMSgt, I heard through the grapevine that one of our Chiefs recieved an email regarding the Sr results being delayed. Can anyone confirm or deny? With certain AFSC's in overages, I would think they would want to have that info out there earlier and even though a small %, they can remove those selected from the overage lists.

Chief_KO
01-11-2014, 12:41 AM
Speaking of SMSgt, I heard through the grapevine that one of our Chiefs recieved an email regarding the Sr results being delayed. Can anyone confirm or deny? With certain AFSC's in overages, I would think they would want to have that info out there earlier and even though a small %, they can remove those selected from the overage lists.

I saw the email and briefly scanned it. The subject line was E8 cycle freeze, but I think it was announcing the "freeze" of data in reference to the PECD. I must confess as a retiree I didn't read it thoroughly, but I'm pretty sure that was the point. I do question the subject line since it leads to obvious confusion

Big Blue
01-11-2014, 12:45 AM
Thanks, I'd appreciate if anyone else saw it can also confirm.

BRUWIN
01-12-2014, 12:54 AM
I would think they would want to have that info out there earlier and even though a small %, they can remove those selected from the overage lists.

They won't just cut promotees from overages...they will cut evenly amoung all the career fields. If in fact that is why they are delaying the announcement

Big Blue
01-12-2014, 09:15 PM
It's a long enough wait so hopefully no delay. Also, good point on other thread on those with Overseas orders that are potentially in the cross hairs. Interesting times ahead. Now back to the other threads.. Heating up :)

Big Blue
01-12-2014, 09:42 PM
I saw the email and briefly scanned it. The subject line was E8 cycle freeze, but I think it was announcing the "freeze" of data in reference to the PECD. I must confess as a retiree I didn't read it thoroughly, but I'm pretty sure that was the point. I do question the subject line since it leads to obvious confusion

If you still have email I'd appreciate if u could re read at your convenience and share..have enough confusion out there with other programs. Thanks much!

Chief_KO
01-12-2014, 09:58 PM
If you still have email I'd appreciate if u could re read at your convenience and share..have enough confusion out there with other programs. Thanks much!

Will do tomorrow when I get back to work. My apologies in advance if I misspoke. There are so many things happening at once (by design IMO) that it is nearly impossible for anyone to keep track and figure out what to do.

Max Power
01-12-2014, 10:30 PM
If you still have email I'd appreciate if u could re read at your convenience and share..have enough confusion out there with other programs. Thanks much!

It's referencing the 14E8 cycle file freeze. I got the email from our local MPS superintendent and there is no mention of a delay of the promotion cycle. It just says that they were freezing the promotion files for the promotion board when it meets later this month.

Big Blue
01-12-2014, 10:34 PM
Thanks Max Power! The power of the forum working again to dispel rumors! Folks in my unit were thinking that heard that email came out with verbiage "freeze" meant it was being delayed. Thanks again for input!

Chief_KO
01-14-2014, 02:38 AM
Here is the original email:

TO: FSS CCs, MPS Chiefs, MPS Supts, and MPS Promotions

SUBJECT: 14E8 Promotion Cycle File Freeze

1. This message is to remind Military Personnel Sections that the 14E8 Central Evaluation Board will convene 21 Jan - 7 Feb 2014. Our office will freeze the WAPS promotion file effective 14 Jan 2014. Any data that is updated in MilPDS after 10 Jan 14 for the 14E8 promotion cycle will not reflect on the member's Data Verification Record (DVR). If an individual's eligibility status changes or an update is required to a member's DVR after 10 Jan 14, the MPS must contact our office via email at afpc.dpsoe@us.af.mil.

2. In order for EPRs and Decorations to be reviewed by the 14E8 Central Evaluation Board they must be made a matter of record in ARMS no later than 17 Jan 14. Please note that AFPC/DPSOE Enlisted Promotions is NOT the OPR for EPRs or decorations. EPRs must be processed through CMS to AFPC/DPSIDEP (Evaluations Branch) and Decorations must be mailed to ARMS in order to be made a matter of record.

3. Please ensure widest dissemination of this reminder, as accuracy of member's DVR/eligibility is vital to promotion consideration.

4. Please ensure a copy of this message is provided to the Career Development Element, assigned Command Chief Master Sergeants, Unit/Squadron Commanders, and Career Assistance Advisors.

5. MPS may refer questions to Enlisted Promotions, HQ AFPC/DPSOE at DSN 665-2362.

Big Blue
01-14-2014, 05:00 PM
Here is the original email:

TO: FSS CCs, MPS Chiefs, MPS Supts, and MPS Promotions

SUBJECT: 14E8 Promotion Cycle File Freeze

1. This message is to remind Military Personnel Sections that the 14E8 Central Evaluation Board will convene 21 Jan - 7 Feb 2014. Our office will freeze the WAPS promotion file effective 14 Jan 2014. Any data that is updated in MilPDS after 10 Jan 14 for the 14E8 promotion cycle will not reflect on the member's Data Verification Record (DVR). If an individual's eligibility status changes or an update is required to a member's DVR after 10 Jan 14, the MPS must contact our office via email at afpc.dpsoe@us.af.mil.

2. In order for EPRs and Decorations to be reviewed by the 14E8 Central Evaluation Board they must be made a matter of record in ARMS no later than 17 Jan 14. Please note that AFPC/DPSOE Enlisted Promotions is NOT the OPR for EPRs or decorations. EPRs must be processed through CMS to AFPC/DPSIDEP (Evaluations Branch) and Decorations must be mailed to ARMS in order to be made a matter of record.

3. Please ensure widest dissemination of this reminder, as accuracy of member's DVR/eligibility is vital to promotion consideration.

4. Please ensure a copy of this message is provided to the Career Development Element, assigned Command Chief Master Sergeants, Unit/Squadron Commanders, and Career Assistance Advisors.

5. MPS may refer questions to Enlisted Promotions, HQ AFPC/DPSOE at DSN 665-2362.




Thanks Chief KO! You are a man of your word! This waiting two more months to find out is for the birds! Back in school so hopefully that makes the time fly by.

Big Blue
02-12-2014, 05:26 PM
SUBJECT: 14E8 Promotion Release

1. The official public release date for 14E8 will be 06 March 2014, 1400 hrs ZULU (0800 CDT). The 14E8 Enlisted Promotion results will be released via the Air Force Personnel Services (myPers), AF Portal, and the Enlisted Promotion (EPROM) Release Application on the AFPC Secure Site.

2. To view eligibility criteria, copy and paste the following myPers link:
https://myPers.af.mil/app/answers/detail/a_id/27051

Big Blue
02-12-2014, 05:28 PM
Just got my notice to attend SNCOA within the next few months. Has anyone went recently with LEGAL advice/pointers? I can't create a new thread yet so appreciate the answers here. Thanks in advance!

Stalwart
02-12-2014, 06:05 PM
Just out of curiosity. In the Navy for senior enlisted and officer promotion boards, COs, CMCs can generally see the list early, I have seen some use it as a way to let those not selected down lightly. Does the AF do anything like that?

DWWSWWD
02-12-2014, 06:08 PM
Just out of curiosity. In the Navy for senior enlisted and officer promotion boards, COs, CMCs can generally see the list early, I have seen some use it as a way to let those not selected down lightly. Does the AF do anything like that? I have a few times. This is for your hotshot that everyone knew was going to be on the list but wasn't.

Chief_KO
02-12-2014, 06:40 PM
Be sure not to walk back from "The Bar"...take the free shuttle bus.
It was a long time ago (2003?) that I was there, but I did enjoy SNCOA. Learned a few things and made some pretty good friends.
Best wishes!

BRUWIN
02-12-2014, 07:56 PM
Just got my notice to attend SNCOA within the next few months. Has anyone went recently with LEGAL advice/pointers? I can't create a new thread yet so appreciate the answers here. Thanks in advance!

Bring your golf clubs. It was six weeks of golf heaven for me. Barely passed each test but passing is passing. The tests would start at 8:00am and end at 10:00am and then you had to be back for 1:00pm after lunch while they corrected them. However, if you were smart like me you you would fly through the test in 20 minutes and be done at 8:20am. You then had just enough time to get in 18 holes at the nearby public course near Gunter in if there was nobody on the course holding you up. I would then hustle back in uniform and be back at 1:00pm to collect my test while scoring between a 72%-76% normally. Heck...one time we ran into our instructor out there and he was supposed to be "correcting tests." It was a good time...learned very little, which was a big plus as well.

Chief_KO
02-12-2014, 08:19 PM
Food-wise there was a little Thai place in a strip mall (near an el-cheapo pizza place that was good). I also liked the Blue Burritto mexican restaurant (good margaritas). Back in the day there was only one brew pub in Montgomery, might be more today...
And there was a bbq joint (kinda like The Shed) that is good too.
Be sure to lock your car doors and watch your six...there was a shooting at the McD's outside Maxwell and a couple of guys in my class got mugged in a restaurant parking lot while I was there

BRUWIN
02-12-2014, 08:43 PM
Food-wise there was a little Thai place in a strip mall (near an el-cheapo pizza place that was good). I also liked the Blue Burritto mexican restaurant (good margaritas). Back in the day there was only one brew pub in Montgomery, might be more today...
And there was a bbq joint (kinda like The Shed) that is good too.
Be sure to lock your car doors and watch your six...there was a shooting at the McD's outside Maxwell and a couple of guys in my class got mugged in a restaurant parking lot while I was there

What year were you there?

Chief_KO
02-12-2014, 08:45 PM
I think around February 2003

BRUWIN
02-12-2014, 08:54 PM
I think around February 2003

just missed you...I was 2004. We were a specifically hand picked "elite class." The instructors wanted a hard charging, low maintenance class for a 6 week break. Man...you guys before us had really stressed them out.

Chief_KO
02-12-2014, 09:27 PM
I actually got a traffic ticket for running the one and only stop light on Gunter. Came back from lunch (back gate), SrA SF was trying to backup his Barney Fife patrol car, I didn't stop to let him do so. I got to the light to turn left, and it was "orange" when I turned. SrA Fife wrote me up (I think he was pi$$ed that I didn't yield to him and probably got major wood writing up a MSgt.
I got back to class and told my instructor I got a ticket for running a light...he thought I meant off-base...when I said on base he said (very laughingly) "We only got one!"

DWWSWWD
02-13-2014, 12:42 AM
Be sure not to walk back from "The Bar"...take the free shuttle bus.
It's "The Keys." Ridiculous. Train tracks that run through a big hole in the fence 400M from the dorms. RAM 231 - Threaten terrorists with paperwork if they walk through the fence on the train tracks. Must take hour long bus ride all the way around to the open gate.

Big Blue
02-13-2014, 02:58 AM
Ha, someone else had already told me not to walk on train tracks home after a "study session" at the bars! Bruwin, no offense, but I might leave the sticks in the bag until the weekends! I plan on putting in the time..I was a local for NCOA so having to go home at night I didn't get the chance to really try and see what I was made of. Probably have a next door neighbor that has great beer in the fridge and there went that idea, ha ha! Networking does have it's place too! Least i'll know prior to going whether I made the cut or not. One less thing on my mind if so.

BRUWIN
02-13-2014, 04:01 AM
Ha, someone else had already told me not to walk on train tracks home after a "study session" at the bars! Bruwin, no offense, but I might leave the sticks in the bag until the weekends! I plan on putting in the time..I was a local for NCOA so having to go home at night I didn't get the chance to really try and see what I was made of. Probably have a next door neighbor that has great beer in the fridge and there went that idea, ha ha! Networking does have it's place too! Least i'll know prior to going whether I made the cut or not. One less thing on my mind if so.

Honestly...it 20 times more relaxing and laid back than NCOA ever was. I really enjoyed it but I don't think the costs were justified...a lot of it you already had in NCOA. And unless something has changed in 10 years every afternoon was spent in the auditorium listening to guest speakers and none of it was testable. Some of speakers were horrible. Some were really good...just depended.

Mcjohn1118
02-13-2014, 03:07 PM
I went in March 2011 and there was a SMSgt-Select who did walk through the fence on Day 3. He was sent home. Like Bruin stated, there were redundant sessions that I leanred in NCOA. I'm talking, the lesson plans were the same exact thing. In my class, we had an NCOA instructor and she verified she was teaching the same stuff. Our class instructor admitted the curriculum was overdue for a re-haul. We all wrote it up in the end of course survey. By the time I left, it was started to get humid. The "study" sessions we had meant drinking in the compound, but overall it was a good six weeks. There is mandatory PT and depending on your pace, you are split into groups. If you over-achieve, you may be put in the fast group and that is no fun.

Chief_KO
02-13-2014, 04:24 PM
Much like my traffic ticket and the SNCO who got sent home for walking back through the fence...I believe those SFS Airmen at Gunter compete against each other to see how many SNCOs they can catch.
Being stationed at Gunter has got to suck so I can't blame them for doing something to make it slightly bearable.

Oh, the most fun was during our "study sessions" and class dinners. Always have a Designated Driver (of course) who does not touch a single drop of booze. Those gate guards must get bonus points for a DUI at the gate.

technomage1
02-13-2014, 11:30 PM
I didn't try and don't lick boots. Therefore I'm pretty sure I didn't make it. Plus we are manned at 127% for SMSgt and 72% for MSgt so that is an obstacle too.

BLUF I don't expect to make it in 20 years and I won't stay past that.

Big Blue
02-14-2014, 02:09 AM
Thx for the info..wow, not a way to go home! Wonder if he got to keep that stripe? Thx for heads up on running..i'm a middle of the pack guy but I heard they have you logging a lot of miles. From reading the orientation packet I have to fill out...if you have a profile, better luck next time. They are only accepting 30 TOTAL for the class. Really frowning on that and want full participation which I can understand. I'm hearing they actually treat you like adults which they did not when I went through NCOA several yrs back so that is refreshing. Luckily I won't be driving there so no chance for the Cops to get me..staying off the roads and tracks! Hoping for a good class!

Big Blue
02-14-2014, 02:12 AM
I didn't try and don't lick boots. Therefore I'm pretty sure I didn't make it. Plus we are manned at 127% for SMSgt and 72% for MSgt so that is an obstacle too.

BLUF I don't expect to make it in 20 years and I won't stay past that.

I believe I have a legitimate shot and never "licked" any boots so we shall see! :-)

Chief_KO
02-14-2014, 12:05 PM
Remember your manning level (at any rank) does not determine the promotion rate and in turn the cut off. The promotion rate is applied equally across all AFSCs (a few AFSCs do receive a "bump" or slight increase).

Measure Man
02-14-2014, 04:14 PM
Just got my notice to attend SNCOA within the next few months. Has anyone went recently with LEGAL advice/pointers? I can't create a new thread yet so appreciate the answers here. Thanks in advance!

Don't believe all the stereotypes.

I met some really nice girls at the trailer park.

There was one I really could have gotten serious with if I was stationed there...

Big Blue
02-14-2014, 08:16 PM
Don't believe all the stereotypes.

I met some really nice girls at the trailer park.

There was one I really could have gotten serious with if I was stationed there...


Now THERE'S some solid advice! Knew you had my back:-) Keep 'em coming!

Big Blue
02-14-2014, 08:17 PM
What are some good downtown places?

Measure Man
02-14-2014, 09:35 PM
What are some good downtown places?

It's been too long for to remember the names of any places...I'll never forget Cecelia though :-)

BRUWIN
02-14-2014, 09:50 PM
Remember your manning level (at any rank) does not determine the promotion rate and in turn the cut off. The promotion rate is applied equally across all AFSCs (a few AFSCs do receive a "bump" or slight increase).

I wish people would try harder to understand this. I used to get tired of hearing that smaller afsc's....of which my second was considered small...was hard to make rank. The percentages are the same across the board. First Sergeant is harder...other than that you have no excuse. And if your afsc is overmanned at a certain rank...the AF still promoted the same percentage and just retrains the extras.

Ripcord
02-15-2014, 08:30 PM
Just got my notice to attend SNCOA within the next few months. Has anyone went recently with LEGAL advice/pointers? I can't create a new thread yet so appreciate the answers here. Thanks in advance!

I graduated SNCOA in December. It was definitely the best of the PMEs. You are treated like a peer not a pee on. Most (I'd say about 85%) of the material was relevant and useful. The best parts were the panels and the combined ops with SOS. PT was pretty cool too. I really enjoyed it though 7 weeks was way too long to be at Gunter....

We were one of the last classes using the old curriculum though. About 5 flights in our class and the next one were testing out the new ALE material. The commandant told us in April they will be going 100% ALE for SNCOA so shorter in resident portion preceded by online learning. I'm told the online portion is essentially course 14 v6 if you haven't already done it.

All in all it was awesome. But like any PME glad its behind me. ;)

Gonzo432
02-15-2014, 08:56 PM
I graduated SNCOA in December. It was definitely the best of the PMEs. You are treated like a peer not a pee on. Most (I'd say about 85%) of the material was relevant and useful. The best parts were the panels and the combined ops with SOS. PT was pretty cool too. I really enjoyed it though 7 weeks was way too long to be at Gunter....

We were one of the last classes using the old curriculum though. About 5 flights in our class and the next one were testing out the new ALE material. The commandant told us in April they will be going 100% ALE for SNCOA so shorter in resident portion preceded by online learning. I'm told the online portion is essentially course 14 v6 if you haven't already done it.

All in all it was awesome. But like any PME glad its behind me. ;)

I do like a lot of ALEs, not a big IPA fan though. 100% ALE? I like to mix it up with LAGERs and the occasional PORTER:party

BRUWIN
02-15-2014, 09:32 PM
A lot of you knuckleheads now couldn't handle the 6 weeks of the old SNCOA curiculum. Two days max and you'd all be crying to go home.

Gonzo432
02-15-2014, 10:05 PM
A lot of you knuckleheads now couldn't handle the 6 weeks of the old SNCOA curiculum. Two days max and you'd all be crying to go home.
I went to SNCOA in the summer of 2005. We were hardcore back in the day.

BRUWIN
02-15-2014, 10:27 PM
I went to SNCOA in the summer of 2005. We were hardcore back in the day.

Yeah...it's a 3 ring circus now.

Chief_KO
02-16-2014, 12:53 PM
IPA, Ale, Stout, Porter...all valuable lessons to learn at any level of PME (in moderation of course!)

sandsjames
02-16-2014, 02:34 PM
I graduated SNCOA in December. It was definitely the best of the PMEs. You are treated like a peer not a pee on. Most (I'd say about 85%) of the material was relevant and useful. The best parts were the panels and the combined ops with SOS. PT was pretty cool too. I really enjoyed it though 7 weeks was way too long to be at Gunter....

We were one of the last classes using the old curriculum though. About 5 flights in our class and the next one were testing out the new ALE material. The commandant told us in April they will be going 100% ALE for SNCOA so shorter in resident portion preceded by online learning. I'm told the online portion is essentially course 14 v6 if you haven't already done it.

All in all it was awesome. But like any PME glad its behind me. ;)

PT was pretty cool? How does that work for SNCOs? Are you allowed to have wheels on your walkers? Can you have your back braces on while doing your required 12 pushups?

BRUWIN
02-16-2014, 06:47 PM
PT was pretty cool? How does that work for SNCOs? Are you allowed to have wheels on your walkers? Can you have your back braces on while doing your required 12 pushups?

You wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes at SNCOA PT.

sandsjames
02-16-2014, 06:54 PM
You wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes at SNCOA PT.

I'm sure you're right. The smell of the catheter bags alone would have sent me on my way.

Ripcord
02-16-2014, 10:03 PM
PT was pretty cool? How does that work for SNCOs? Are you allowed to have wheels on your walkers? Can you have your back braces on while doing your required 12 pushups?

HA HA HA only if you have a profile! I'll be honest I was impressed with the "old guys" out there. Except for a few reservists everybody held there own. More then I can say for the typical millennial. While I wasn't the youngest guy there (there was a 28 year old reservist MSgt) we all managed without our walkers... The PJs and TACPs had to hold back a bit but we all managed. Overall it was more intense, balanced and valid then anything we ever did in ALS or NCOA.

One of the days was a warrior challenge day that was actually a bunch of fun then the Chiefs groups finished off the day with a burger burn. PT should be fun not a pain in the ass...

Gonzo432
02-17-2014, 12:41 AM
PT was pretty cool? How does that work for SNCOs? Are you allowed to have wheels on your walkers? Can you have your back braces on while doing your required 12 pushups?

I think you've confused SNCOA with Bob Hope Village. There were some Guard guys in in class who had 2 bronze star devices on their NDSMs. They were older than most, but not older than dirt.

Ripcord
02-17-2014, 03:19 AM
I think you've confused SNCOA with Bob Hope Village. There were some Guard guys in in class who had 2 bronze star devices on their NDSMs. They were older than most, but not older than dirt.

We had an ANG guy in my flight that was 53 years young.

...my dad is 54. :boggled:

There was no competition for flight leader....

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 04:11 AM
I graduated SNCOA in December. It was definitely the best of the PMEs. You are treated like a peer not a pee on. Most (I'd say about 85%) of the material was relevant and useful. The best parts were the panels and the combined ops with SOS. PT was pretty cool too. I really enjoyed it though 7 weeks was way too long to be at Gunter....

We were one of the last classes using the old curriculum though. About 5 flights in our class and the next one were testing out the new ALE material. The commandant told us in April they will be going 100% ALE for SNCOA so shorter in resident portion preceded by online learning. I'm told the online portion is essentially course 14 v6 if you haven't already done it.

All in all it was awesome. But like any PME glad its behind me. ;)

Thx for the info. I am going late April and with it still being 6 wks looks like it will still be the older curriculum. Any advice or pointers to set myself up for a successful time? Heard they do the typical through a firehouse and overwhelm u at first. Hope these old knees can take the PT..heard there is a lot of running. Thx!

Ripcord
02-17-2014, 04:56 AM
Thx for the info. I am going late April and with it still being 6 wks looks like it will still be the older curriculum. Any advice or pointers to set myself up for a successful time? Heard they do the typical through a firehouse and overwhelm u at first. Hope these old knees can take the PT..heard there is a lot of running. Thx!

Uh it wasn't that bad. Just do your homework and do it on time. Its not rocket science but there is allot of it. And don't get hung up on the case studies either. They suck but really don't count for anything but to teach you IDDJP. Allot of people were stressing about that and I never understood why. Also the final test is no joke. Probably one of the hardest AF tests I've ever taken. Make sure you take good notes and study study study. Other then that have a good time. It can be a blast if you don't become a hobbit and stay in your room the whole time.

For pt we ran distance once a week if I remember right. Gradually increasing distance or speed depending on the work out. Its all self paced though so you should be fine. Allot of cross fit type workouts though.

Gonzo432
02-17-2014, 10:49 AM
We had an ANG guy in my flight that was 53 years young.

...my dad is 54. :boggled:

There was no competition for flight leader....

It's been about 9 years since I went to SNCOA, so I figure the Vietnam-era guys have pretty much retired. I was 40 when I went, so I was older than most AD. The ANG-types? They definitely skewed the age range up a bit.

SomeRandomGuy
02-17-2014, 04:22 PM
It's been about 9 years since I went to SNCOA, so I figure the Vietnam-era guys have pretty much retired. I was 40 when I went, so I was older than most AD. The ANG-types? They definitely skewed the age range up a bit.

I went to 7 level with a 42 year old ANG SSgt. The rest of us were under 30. I think she's on track to be about 50 something by the time she is eligible for SNCOA. She said someone in her unit was in her 50s and getting forced out due to PT. Who knew that people in their 50s would struggle with a 1.5 mile run?

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 05:32 PM
Uh it wasn't that bad. Just do your homework and do it on time. Its not rocket science but there is allot of it. And don't get hung up on the case studies either. They suck but really don't count for anything but to teach you IDDJP. Allot of people were stressing about that and I never understood why. Also the final test is no joke. Probably one of the hardest AF tests I've ever taken. Make sure you take good notes and study study study. Other then that have a good time. It can be a blast if you don't become a hobbit and stay in your room the whole time.

For pt we ran distance once a week if I remember right. Gradually increasing distance or speed depending on the work out. Its all self paced though so you should be fine. Allot of cross fit type workouts though.

Awesome, thx for the info. Was the Airman's Creed recited? Need to know now so I can re learn it! Funny reference with Pee on", ha ha! Looking forward to what the class has to offer and hopefully meet some good folks.

Ripcord
02-17-2014, 05:41 PM
Awesome, thx for the info. Was the Airman's Creed recited? Need to know now so I can re learn it! Funny reference with Pee on", ha ha! Looking forward to what the class has to offer and hopefully meet some good folks.

No creed not once....which surprised me. Don't expect another version of ncoa its nothing like that.

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 06:28 PM
No creed not once....which surprised me. Don't expect another version of ncoa its nothing like that.

Now that's encouraging! Could leadership finally be understanding that the Creed isn't the end all be all. Sounds like I will be pleasantly surprised! That's great to hear..

Ripcord
02-17-2014, 06:37 PM
Now that's encouraging! Could leadership finally be understanding that the Creed isn't the end all be all. Sounds like I will be pleasantly surprised! That's great to hear..
Don't get too excited. We sang the hell out of the air force song during revellie and retreat every week and x2 graduation day. :)

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 06:47 PM
Ha ha, actually we don't give enough props to the AF song like some of the branches so that is fine. So typical amount of speeches, papers?

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 06:48 PM
Also any good bars to recommend? After study sessions of course :-)

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 06:48 PM
Feel folks bond better after shooting the shit over a few brews and get to know everyone's story.

Ripcord
02-17-2014, 07:11 PM
There are 5 speeches. The first one is an impromptu speech (first or second day if I remember) about your AF story. Cake. The rest are pretty easy and build up to the only one that counts the 7-11 min motivational speech. We had more issues with people going over time then anything else.

I'm not really a bar rat but I heard some people talking about a few places downtown Montgomery that weren't to bad. The keys is right out the back gate and allot of people go there to. There is also a bar in lodging that most people use. The enlisted club is right down the street but has been closed for years.

If your instructor doesn't bring it up ask about playing the terrorist game. Its fun as shit and will learn allot about you fellow sncos!

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 07:31 PM
There are 5 speeches. The first one is an impromptu speech (first or second day if I remember) about your AF story. Cake. The rest are pretty easy and build up to the only one that counts the 7-11 min motivational speech. We had more issues with people going over time then anything else.

I'm not really a bar rat but I heard some people talking about a few places downtown Montgomery that weren't to bad. The keys is right out the back gate and allot of people go there to. There is also a bar in lodging that most people use. The enlisted club is right down the street but has been closed for years.

If your instructor doesn't bring it up ask about playing the terrorist game. Its fun as shit and will learn allot about you fellow sncos!

Great info! I'm flying there so it depends on how much I get out and about. What about the papers? I normally have no problems with speeches just curious how much I'll be typing! Thx

Ripcord
02-17-2014, 07:48 PM
Great info! I'm flying there so it depends on how much I get out and about. What about the papers? I normally have no problems with speeches just curious how much I'll be typing! Thx

There is a group project and depending your role in that some writing. You also have weekly papers due but not really to bad. Some people wrote out their entire speeches but I didnt . I just write the outline then speak to the main points.

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 07:55 PM
There is a group project and depending your role in that some writing. You also have weekly papers due but not really to bad. Some people wrote out their entire speeches but I didnt . I just write the outline then speak to the main points.

Awesome, that sounds like my style regarding speeches. Been a number of yrs since PME so just have to get my mindset ready. Actually excited/humbled since most don't get the oppty. Appreciate the responses!

BRUWIN
02-17-2014, 08:05 PM
Uh it wasn't that bad. Just do your homework and do it on time. Its not rocket science but there is allot of it.

Huh...i don't remember that. I remember doing papers the night before they were due but that was about it.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-17-2014, 08:44 PM
Huh...i don't remember that. I remember doing papers the night before they were due but that was about it.

Were you a yellow rope at SNCOA?

Big Blue
02-17-2014, 09:33 PM
Were you a yellow rope at SNCOA?

Bruwin was in charge of patrolling the greens there and "May" have lowered his handicap in the process:)

BRUWIN
02-18-2014, 03:04 AM
Were you a yellow rope at SNCOA?

I asked about it but they didn't have them at SNCOA. They said I could be an honorary one but I turned it down because people aren't scared of honorary ropes...just real ones.

ttribe
02-18-2014, 05:05 PM
I asked about it but they didn't have them at SNCOA. They said I could be an honorary one but I turned it down because people aren't scared of honorary ropes...just real ones.

One last chance Bru. Now that you are a GS you might be offered SOS. Think of the possibilities.

Personally, I deleted the email and pretended it never came.

BRUWIN
02-18-2014, 06:17 PM
I have not made SMSgt yet because I keep the bullets on my EPR truthful, and don't inflate the bullets.

I always did as well...it is up to your supervisor to inflate them if they think you are deserving.

BRUWIN
02-18-2014, 06:20 PM
One last chance Bru. Now that you are a GS you might be offered SOS. Think of the possibilities.

.

I don't think they would send me...it would be like that Flintstones episode where Mr Slate sent Fred back back to high school when he found out Fred was techincally a few weeks short of his high school degree.and never received it.

BRUWIN
02-18-2014, 06:29 PM
Awesome, that sounds like my style regarding speeches. Been a number of yrs since PME so just have to get my mindset ready. Actually excited/humbled since most don't get the oppty. Appreciate the responses!

I had the unfortunate experience of having a buddy I knew from korea in my flight for SNCOA. I was doing a speech and I was trying to lighten it up a bit for the class when I stated "and my exhaustive research has shown...." knowing they knew damn well I was winging this thing. The class started chuckling, but then my buddy chimes in with "exhaustive research? You used this weeks base newspaper that was delievered to your lodging door to find that statistic." I really had referenced that weeks base newspaper and the class erupts in laughter. The instructor could stop laughing either so I had to wait up there for everybody to stop laughing. I still made the time though.

BOSS302
02-18-2014, 07:32 PM
I had the unfortunate experience of having a buddy I knew from korea in my flight for SNCOA. I was doing a speech and I was trying to lighten it up a bit for the class when I stated "and my exhaustive research has shown...." knowing they knew damn well I was winging this thing. The class started chuckling, but then my buddy chimes in with "exhaustive research? You used this weeks base newspaper that was delievered to your lodging door to find that statistic." I really had referenced that weeks base newspaper and the class erupts in laughter. The instructor could stop laughing either so I had to wait up there for everybody to stop laughing. I still made the time though.

Sounds like a lot of grab-assing and general buffoonery. No wonder the leadership in my Air Force is failing.

Big Blue
02-18-2014, 10:44 PM
I had the unfortunate experience of having a buddy I knew from korea in my flight for SNCOA. I was doing a speech and I was trying to lighten it up a bit for the class when I stated "and my exhaustive research has shown...." knowing they knew damn well I was winging this thing. The class started chuckling, but then my buddy chimes in with "exhaustive research? You used this weeks base newspaper that was delievered to your lodging door to find that statistic." I really had referenced that weeks base newspaper and the class erupts in laughter. The instructor could stop laughing either so I had to wait up there for everybody to stop laughing. I still made the time though.

That's hilarious..that kind of stuff bonds the class and helps break the monotony of all the studying and test taking.

BRUWIN
02-19-2014, 12:03 AM
Sounds like a lot of grab-assing and general buffoonery. No wonder the leadership in my Air Force is failing.

You really think? That was over 10 years ago. The SNCOs now seem to be fucking things up pretty well without the help of SNCOA.

Big Blue
02-19-2014, 12:25 AM
You really think? That was over 10 years ago. The SNCOs now seem to be fucking things up pretty well without the help of SNCOA.

Ha Ha! I see a bunch of the blue card mafia folks shaking their heads in unison :nutkick:. Yep, we have a hole to dig ourselves out of. See morale in your neck of the woods thread :-). I can only hope there are those with a sense of humor in my class. You made Chief so it seems some of the important stuff stuck!

BRUWIN
02-19-2014, 02:42 AM
Ha Ha! I see a bunch of the blue card mafia folks shaking their heads in unison :nutkick:. Yep, we have a hole to dig ourselves out of. See morale in your neck of the woods thread :-). I can only hope there are those with a sense of humor in my class. You made Chief so it seems some of the important stuff stuck!

Their were several reasons why I made Chief but SNCOA wasn't one of them. Yeah...had I applied myself more in PME I might have gotten there quicker. However, for me...the only reason why I made Chief was because I never pulled myself out of the running or had people convince me I couldn't make Chief. I just kept plugging away...and I had some luck. It's there if people want it. Some convince themselves it requires butt kissing and it isn't really for them. I never kissed butt, I volunteered but only for the things I wanted to do, and I never did a bake sale. Seriously, not one bake sale in thirty years. So...my point is this, don't ever listen to anybody and say you can't make Chief if you try. Just make Chief your own way. There are boxes to check, but PME awards, volunteering, bake sales, Top 3 and all the other rubbish people say you need to make Chief is just that...rubbish. You can make Chief with your dignity still intact by doing it your way and not the way others say it needs to be done. As a result, it took a few extra years to make Chief but so what...I got out in 30 years and get the same retirement pay as other Chief's that made it in 16 years.

Big Blue
02-19-2014, 04:45 PM
Their were several reasons why I made Chief but SNCOA wasn't one of them. Yeah...had I applied myself more in PME I might have gotten there quicker. However, for me...the only reason why I made Chief was because I never pulled myself out of the running or had people convince me I couldn't make Chief. I just kept plugging away...and I had some luck. It's there if people want it. Some convince themselves it requires butt kissing and it isn't really for them. I never kissed butt, I volunteered but only for the things I wanted to do, and I never did a bake sale. Seriously, not one bake sale in thirty years. So...my point is this, don't ever listen to anybody and say you can't make Chief if you try. Just make Chief your own way. There are boxes to check, but PME awards, volunteering, bake sales, Top 3 and all the other rubbish people say you need to make Chief is just that...rubbish. You can make Chief with your dignity still intact by doing it your way and not the way others say it needs to be done. As a result, it took a few extra years to make Chief but so what...I got out in 30 years and get the same retirement pay as other Chief's that made it in 16 years.


Great advice. One thing you said that sticks out to me is not listening to folks that might say you can't make it. I learned a valuable lesson the hard way. I let someone's "opinion" of my records when they did a courtesy records review dictate my actions regarding studying and I missed Sr last year as #3 non select. I know now to wholeheartedly believe in myself and what I bring to the table. The person was a Chief in my AFSC and I should have taken his opinion on how he thought I looked "whole person concept" with a grain of salt. He basically said I was average at best and didn't seem like I had a shot. I personally thought I had some strong things in there and it did crush my hopes. Like you said, there are mutiple ways to make it so bad on those that disregard that fact. I thought since he made it that he would basically know what it takes. When I got my results...gut punch! I studied my ass off this year so if I don't make it at least I will know it was a full effort on my terms. Also, if I ever get asked for my opinion I will make sure and convey these facts. Good luck to all that tested and thx to those who made it previously that help unmuddy the water for us!

Chief_KO
02-19-2014, 07:20 PM
Regarding promotions to SMSgt / CMSgt...it is also worthy to note to not listen to the advice of TSgts regarding what is required to make SMSgt or CMSgt.
It's hard to be an "expert" at something you've never done yourself.

Now, let me tell you how to score a 100 on your PT test, maintain a 29 inch waist, and run an 8 minute mile & a half...

sandsjames
02-19-2014, 08:25 PM
Regarding promotions to SMSgt / CMSgt...it is also worthy to note to not listen to the advice of TSgts regarding what is required to make SMSgt or CMSgt.
It's hard to be an "expert" at something you've never done yourself.

Now, let me tell you how to score a 100 on your PT test, maintain a 29 inch waist, and run an 8 minute mile & a half...

I almost take offense to that, being a TSgt (ret). I'm sure that as an E6 I could give great advice on the inner workings of upper management. I mean, come on...who has more inside info than a Tech?

Now, as far as the PT test score and waist size, ask Bruwin what us Techs are like for that one. 39.5 inch waist (with a generous person taping) and just squeaking by with the 75. It's hard to score high when you're so short. Really the only reason I ever wanted to make Master was for the growth spurt. Unfortunately, I'm stuck as an Oompa Loompa for life.

So we'll leave the PT to you and you leave the best Chief track to us.

Chief_KO
02-19-2014, 09:02 PM
No offense intended. When an Airman would ask me about commissioning programs, I took them to see/speak with an prior-E officer (someone with experience). I always preferred to stay within my area of expertise.

Regarding the PT score, waist, mile & half run...not even in my dreams!

DWWSWWD
02-19-2014, 09:31 PM
Great advice. One thing you said that sticks out to me is not listening to folks that might say you can't make it. I learned a valuable lesson the hard way.

When I was tested for TSgt it was the stripe that no one could make the first time and everyone told me so. I didn't study at all and missed it by 56 points. The next year I decided to quit listening to those people and surround myself with the half-fulls. I made TSgt the second time, MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt the first time.

Good words from Bru. Choose your path to Chief. I'll add that the path you take, will define you as a Chief. You can't unstab someone in the back, you can't unbrown that nose or unkiss that ass. Be proud of your path. Chief is nowhere near as big a deal as what the person wearing the stripes does with them.

Chief_KO
02-19-2014, 09:56 PM
When I was tested for TSgt it was the stripe that no one could make the first time and everyone told me so. I didn't study at all and missed it by 56 points. The next year I decided to quit listening to those people and surround myself with the half-fulls. I made TSgt the second time, MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt the first time.

Good words from Bru. Choose your path to Chief. I'll add that the path you take, will define you as a Chief. You can't unstab someone in the back, you can't unbrown that nose or unkiss that ass. Be proud of your path. Chief is nowhere near as big a deal as what the person wearing the stripes does with them.

Excellent point...too many abuse the honor and privilege of being a Chief. I call it the velvet rope treatment...taking the often offered "head of the line" privilege at MPF, having someone else do your DTS/book your lodging reservations, answer your phone, etc., etc., etc. (the list can be long)
A Chief does not have Airmen working for him/her...a Chief is working for his/her Airmen.

Big Blue
02-20-2014, 01:14 AM
When I was tested for TSgt it was the stripe that no one could make the first time and everyone told me so. I didn't study at all and missed it by 56 points. The next year I decided to quit listening to those people and surround myself with the half-fulls. I made TSgt the second time, MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt the first time.

Good words from Bru. Choose your path to Chief. I'll add that the path you take, will define you as a Chief. You can't unstab someone in the back, you can't unbrown that nose or unkiss that ass. Be proud of your path. Chief is nowhere near as big a deal as what the person wearing the stripes does with them.

Great story...LOVE the comment "half-fulls". I also made the conscious decision to surround myself with like minded people with positive goals in their sight. Also, good to see you were able make the rest your first time which goes to show never say never. I actually caught myself saying if I make it this time I will "only have two tries...who says it can't be the first!! These threads are motivating! I put it all out there this year so I told my Boss if I don't make it then I'm taking the rest of that day off to process and digest the news of the setback and to refocus my efforts to get back on the saddle. May have some trusty Crown at my side :-)

Big Blue
02-20-2014, 01:26 AM
Oh, one other question. Did you know in your heart you made it the yr you did or because its a different Board with different scoring, other variables each yr you just knew you put in the work and had a decent shot?

Chief_KO
02-20-2014, 02:22 AM
My promotions look like a bell curve, BTZ, SSgt under 4 (missed it B cycle carryover by .04), then 5 tries each for TSgt & MSgt. I fell into that "WAPS Calculator" trap, trying to predict the cutoff and what I need to score to make it instead of studying and testing to my best ability. I was the perfect wiseass, know-it-all TSgt and was honestly pleased and proud to make MSgt at the 18 year mark.
The stars and planets aligned and I was placed in the course supervisor position during a huge AFSC merger and entire course re-write/re-equip/renovation of classrooms/labs. We pulled an Outstanding (the only one) during an ORI and our team won an AF-level award.
I PCS'd and we bought a house at our next base, happy to be a SNCO and looking to retire at 23. I got tagged to deploy (first ever AEF "non-vol" in my new unit) and hit a homerun while deployed. My Chief said SMSgt and CMSgt were in the cards for me if I keep it up. Well, I didn't fully believe him and did not put my best effort in to studying. My board score was a 390 and I was the only one with that score not promoted (I would have made it with a 60). With renewed ambition and a verbal kick in the a$$ from my Chief, I made SMSgt the next year.
With 2 SMSgts in the unit and a massive reorg in the works there was going to be two flights "Ops" & "Support". As the ranking SMSgt I had the choice. The Ops officer (LtCol) was a horse's a$$ so I chose Support, even though "the experts" told me it was a mistake. Ops would have all the bells & whistles that would get me Chief, while support was just...support.
First time out of the chute...Chief. My Mom passed away 2 weeks before the results so it was a real bittersweet moment that neither of my parents were there to see (my Dad passed when I was a TSgt).
Oh, and I made both SMSgt and CMSgt without directly supervising a single Airman.

Moral of the story...so much of making SMSgt/CMSgt is out of your control. No matter what job you have or what your duty title is give it your all. IF you are in position where you don't directly supervise or lead, make up for it somewhere (and I'm not talking bake sales). I was never an office holder till I was VP of the Chiefs Group (which is totally a ceremonial position). I also had no PME awards (other than HG from NCOPC 18 years earlier). Too many put too much weight into office holding, PME awards, etc. There are great opportunities to demonstrate leadership.

BRUWIN
02-20-2014, 02:40 AM
I almost take offense to that, being a TSgt (ret). I'm sure that as an E6 I could give great advice on the inner workings of upper management. I mean, come on...who has more inside info than a Tech?

Now, as far as the PT test score and waist size, ask Bruwin what us Techs are like for that one. 39.5 inch waist (with a generous person taping) and just squeaking by with the 75. It's hard to score high when you're so short. Really the only reason I ever wanted to make Master was for the growth spurt. Unfortunately, I'm stuck as an Oompa Loompa for life.

So we'll leave the PT to you and you leave the best Chief track to us.

I will never forget the one NCOA graduation I went to where every single TSgt that was graduating had like a 40 inch waist and they could all swing their feet in the chair when they sat down. I felt like Wilt Chamberlain at that graduation. Every single one of them looked like one of the lollipop kids from the Wizard of Oz. They all had really high pitched squeally voices too. I swear this really happened and I am not making any of it up. I put my retirement paperwork in not long after.

BRUWIN
02-20-2014, 02:47 AM
Choose your path to Chief. I'll add that the path you take, will define you as a Chief. You can't unstab someone in the back, you can't unbrown that nose or unkiss that ass. Be proud of your path. Chief is nowhere near as big a deal as what the person wearing the stripes does with them.

Wow...i wish I had said those words.

Ripcord
02-20-2014, 04:50 AM
Oh, one other question. Did you know in your heart you made it the yr you did or because its a different Board with different scoring, other variables each yr you just knew you put in the work and had a decent shot?

It doesnt seem like it at the time but looking back I think each year I made it a part of me knew I made it. But SMSgt was a total surprise especially my board score. It was allot higher then I could have imagined but proved to me that what Chief KO and DWWSWWD already said is 100% the truth. The details are different but the principles are the same. When I made Senior I was two months into my Shirt tour and had already come to accept that it would probably be 3 years before I had a chance. I was good with that so when the CC showed up at my door I was probably more humbled then anything. For me it was about low hanging fruit and consistent high performance over the years on whatever jobs I was given starting from SrA. Never held an private org position though I did have a few NAF level awards...again low hanging fruit given the circumstances I was in. In that respect a decent amount of luck and timing also played in my favor. Oh yeah making sure to check a few boxes on the way...but that is the easy part.

One thing I always do/did after putting on a stripe was to comit myself to earning it while I wear it. Never step on necks, never kiss the brown eye and just focus on taking care of my people.

DWWSWWD
02-20-2014, 02:26 PM
Oh, one other question. Did you know in your heart you made it the yr you did or because its a different Board with different scoring, other variables each yr you just knew you put in the work and had a decent shot? Say it with me.... The score doesn't matter. I knew where I shook out relative to my peers and knew I had made it. Long story that I may have shared here before but it turns out the only EPR that the Chief board saw had me marked one block from the left in leadership. (a mistake, but the board didn't know that) I still made it the first time. Think about that the next time you're wondering whether to use Quarterbacked or Honcho'ed as the lead for your bullet. Whether to make brownies or rice crispy treats for the bake sale... It's the big rocks that matter. Knock the J.O.B. stuff out of the park and do a little something to make sure the other boxes are checked. That's the way. I promise.

Big Blue
02-20-2014, 09:55 PM
Say it with me.... The score doesn't matter. I knew where I shook out relative to my peers and knew I had made it. Long story that I may have shared here before but it turns out the only EPR that the Chief board saw had me marked one block from the left in leadership. (a mistake, but the board didn't know that) I still made it the first time. Think about that the next time you're wondering whether to use Quarterbacked or Honcho'ed as the lead for your bullet. Whether to make brownies or rice crispy treats for the bake sale... It's the big rocks that matter. Knock the J.O.B. stuff out of the park and do a little something to make sure the other boxes are checked. That's the way. I promise.

Great perspective! When you say score doesn't matter can you elaborate? I understand the standing amongst my peers but they do take the highest scores which include the board scores to come up with the highest X amount of folks to hand out the stripes. So in my mind the overall score would matter. Thx in advance for the feedback!

grimreaper
02-20-2014, 10:11 PM
Great perspective! When you say score doesn't matter can you elaborate? I understand the standing amongst my peers but they do take the highest scores which include the board scores to come up with the highest X amount of folks to hand out the stripes. So in my mind the overall score would matter. Thx in advance for the feedback!

The board score year over year isn't that big a deal because each board grades differently. Say you get a 375 from the board one year. Getting a 360 board the following year doesn't mean you are necessarily doing anything wrong because the board will grade everyone that year using the same methodology. Even though you got a lower board the 2nd year, your standing amongst your peers could actually improve, which is what you hope for. If both your board AND your standing drop, that's when you know the board is trying to send you a message.

DWWSWWD
02-20-2014, 10:18 PM
Great perspective! When you say score doesn't matter can you elaborate? I understand the standing amongst my peers but they do take the highest scores which include the board scores to come up with the highest X amount of folks to hand out the stripes. So in my mind the overall score would matter. Thx in advance for the feedback!
You said it. It's your standing amongst peers. The context of the question was to do with different boards/different scoring. Yes, the numbers will be different but top dogs are top dogs and should be from one year to the next. Top dogs will get the top score amongst the eligible regardless of what that number is. You're sweating this one, huh? I think you're good to go. What I tell you won't change your bake sale numbers or your efforts in the testing room two months ago anyway. it will be over soon. Waiting sucks.

sandsjames
02-20-2014, 10:36 PM
I think boards need to be done for all ranks, not just the SNCOs.

I know AA will jump in and say it's a clear example of my usual attitude, but I'll say this about the promotion system. I hate it. I think a system in the military that promotes based almost completely on a written test and someone's ability to retain generally irrelevant information (as the EPR and dec points don't really make that much of a difference in the long run) is asinine. The military is about one thing. Fighting, and supporting those who fight, wars. For promotions not to be based on those things is ridiculous. When the shit hits the fan, I don't want someone who's a good studier in charge.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that one can't be both a good tester/studier and be in a position based on merit. I'm saying that there should be something that ensures the person in the position is there based on merit, not testing.

I'm sure there are not more than a few businesses/industries world wide that promote people based almost solely based on a written test. Why should an organization that relies so heavily on having the proper people in leadership positions be so different.

grimreaper
02-20-2014, 10:41 PM
I think boards need to be done for all ranks, not just the SNCOs.

I know AA will jump in and say it's a clear example of my usual attitude, but I'll say this about the promotion system. I hate it. I think a system in the military that promotes based almost completely on a written test and someone's ability to retain generally irrelevant information (as the EPR and dec points don't really make that much of a difference in the long run) is asinine. The military is about one thing. Fighting, and supporting those who fight, wars. For promotions not to be based on those things is ridiculous. When the shit hits the fan, I don't want someone who's a good studier in charge.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that one can't be both a good tester/studier and be in a position based on merit. I'm saying that there should be something that ensures the person in the position is there based on merit, not testing.

I'm sure there are not more than a few businesses/industries world wide that promote people based almost solely based on a written test. Why should an organization that relies so heavily on having the proper people in leadership positions be so different.

Don't necessarily disagree with you on concept, but the logistics would be an absolute nightmare. The lower in rank you go with the boards, the more and more people you are talking about.

sandsjames
02-20-2014, 10:48 PM
Don't necessarily disagree with you on concept, but the logistics would be an absolute nightmare. The lower in rank you go with the boards, the more and more people you are talking about.

True, it would be a nightmare, and maybe not feasible through all ranks, and maybe not as big a deal as in the combat career fields/services.

I just rewatched Band of Brothers for the Nth time and was thinking about the whole leadership/followership thing and it really made me think about what I would have done with some of the LTs they had in charge. Could I follow the orders of a guy even though I knew he didn't merit the position and was probably going to get me, and many others, killed? I don't think I could. But if it ever came down to the Air Force being in a serious situation like that, I can think of several people I worked for who were in the position because they studied hard who would probably get everyone killed. If the Air Force really wants to label itself as "warriors" then they need to ensure that the people leading those "warriors" are capable.

grimreaper
02-20-2014, 10:59 PM
True, it would be a nightmare, and maybe not feasible through all ranks, and maybe not as big a deal as in the combat career fields/services.

I just rewatched Band of Brothers for the Nth time and was thinking about the whole leadership/followership thing and it really made me think about what I would have done with some of the LTs they had in charge. Could I follow the orders of a guy even though I knew he didn't merit the position and was probably going to get me, and many others, killed? I don't think I could. But if it ever came down to the Air Force being in a serious situation like that, I can think of several people I worked for who were in the position because they studied hard who would probably get everyone killed. If the Air Force really wants to label itself as "warriors" then they need to ensure that the people leading those "warriors" are capable.

I get what you're saying in that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a green LT leading combat troops, but it is the belief in the chain of command that keeps us moving along, which without, we would have mutiny happening all over the place. I can't see that producing much better results.

But speaking in terms of the AF, we don't have to worry about that all that much.

sandsjames
02-20-2014, 11:16 PM
I get what you're saying in that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a green LT leading combat troops, but it is the belief in the chain of command that keeps us moving along, which without, we would have mutiny happening all over the place. I can't see that producing much better results.

But speaking in terms of the AF, we don't have to worry about that all that much.

True...and they know that...which is why the "warrior" term is so ludicrous.

grimreaper
02-20-2014, 11:20 PM
True...and they know that...which is why the "warrior" term is so ludicrous.

Which is exactly why only a select few ever gave a rats arse about the Airman's Creed. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but where I'm at, I have heard absolutely no mention of it in a long, long time. In fact, I can't remember the last time I've seen it or heard it. Good riddance.

Big Blue
02-20-2014, 11:29 PM
You said it. It's your standing amongst peers. The context of the question was to do with different boards/different scoring. Yes, the numbers will be different but top dogs are top dogs and should be from one year to the next. Top dogs will get the top score amongst the eligible regardless of what that number is. You're sweating this one, huh? I think you're good to go. What I tell you won't change your bake sale numbers or your efforts in the testing room two months ago anyway. it will be over soon. Waiting sucks.

Thx Chief! Yep, this waiting so long sucks!! Especially for me since it will drive a PCS and a number of things so me and the fam are pretty anxious. 14 more days, but who's counting :)

Big Blue
02-21-2014, 01:55 AM
I will never forget the one NCOA graduation I went to where every single TSgt that was graduating had like a 40 inch waist and they could all swing their feet in the chair when they sat down. I felt like Wilt Chamberlain at that graduation. Every single one of them looked like one of the lollipop kids from the Wizard of Oz. They all had really high pitched squeally voices too. I swear this really happened and I am not making any of it up. I put my retirement paperwork in not long after.

You crack me up daily! Now I have the lollipop kids song stick in my head!!!

Absinthe Anecdote
02-21-2014, 02:27 AM
True, it would be a nightmare, and maybe not feasible through all ranks, and maybe not as big a deal as in the combat career fields/services.

I just rewatched Band of Brothers for the Nth time and was thinking about the whole leadership/followership thing and it really made me think about what I would have done with some of the LTs they had in charge. Could I follow the orders of a guy even though I knew he didn't merit the position and was probably going to get me, and many others, killed? I don't think I could. But if it ever came down to the Air Force being in a serious situation like that, I can think of several people I worked for who were in the position because they studied hard who would probably get everyone killed. If the Air Force really wants to label itself as "warriors" then they need to ensure that the people leading those "warriors" are capable.

It sounds like you want a great benevolent leader who is looking down upon everything and everybody and making sure all is fair, and just hunky-dory.

Sorry, but things are dirty and messy in the real world. Your musings about how "they" should do this or "they" should do that aren't very helpful to the guys slugging along in the trenches beside you; sometimes, you have to shut the hell up and be a good follower.

Sometimes, you do have to lead from behind, but you'll never be able to lead from behind if you are one of those "they should do that" people.

Sorry SJ, there is no Santa Claus that will make "them" do it "your" way.

BOSS302
02-21-2014, 10:35 AM
It sounds like you want a great benevolent leader who is looking down upon everything and everybody and making sure all is fair, and just hunky-dory.

Sorry, but things are dirty and messy in the real world. Your musings about how "they" should do this or "they" should do that aren't very helpful to the guys slugging along in the trenches beside you; sometimes, you have to shut the hell up and be a good follower.

Sometimes, you do have to lead from behind, but you'll never be able to lead from behind if you are one of those "they should do that" people.

Sorry SJ, there is no Santa Claus that will make "them" do it "your" way.

http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.13003401.6488/fig,red,mens,ffffff.u5.jpg

Absinthe Anecdote
02-21-2014, 11:48 AM
http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.13003401.6488/fig,red,mens,ffffff.u5.jpg

Fortunately, I have that effect on most people. I just walk into the room and they automatically start looking to me to take the lead.

Not that I enjoy reciting the creed myself, but I do get a kick out of making others recite it.

One time I signed out a bus from transportation and got a couple of my junior alphas to ride around base with me.

When we'd see an airman on the sidewalk, we'd make them get on the bus and recite the creed.

We picked up this smoke pit lawyer one day, he was trying to quote regulations like a big "know it all." He said, "You guys don't have the authority to make me recite the creed! You are just three guys on a bus!" That is when I gave the signal to my guys to cover their name tapes.

You should have seen that little complainer start reciting the creed! As a matter of fact, it was hard to get him to stop; he just kept on saying it and began blubbering and sniffling through the creed again and again.

We dropped him off on a remote section of the base and made him walk back, after we took his pants and boots and tossed them up in a high tree.

Sometimes you have to be creative with these cry-baby types, but they see the light eventually.

sandsjames
02-21-2014, 12:21 PM
It sounds like you want a great benevolent leader who is looking down upon everything and everybody and making sure all is fair, and just hunky-dory.

Sorry, but things are dirty and messy in the real world. Your musings about how "they" should do this or "they" should do that aren't very helpful to the guys slugging along in the trenches beside you; sometimes, you have to shut the hell up and be a good follower.

Sometimes, you do have to lead from behind, but you'll never be able to lead from behind if you are one of those "they should do that" people.

Sorry SJ, there is no Santa Claus that will make "them" do it "your" way.

Great point. I guess we should just stop trying to discuss how things could be better and realize that we are stuck with things the way they are. I love your perspective as a leader. Keep the status quo and don't try to find ways to improve because it's just too hard.

Very typical of most "leaders" who take a suggestion that actually had some ideas behind it and write it off ass whining immediately. You're the best.

OtisRNeedleman
02-21-2014, 02:22 PM
I get what you're saying in that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a green LT leading combat troops, but it is the belief in the chain of command that keeps us moving along, which without, we would have mutiny happening all over the place. I can't see that producing much better results.

But speaking in terms of the AF, we don't have to worry about that all that much.

That's also why you have SNCOs with that young lieutenant. In combat/operations, if the LT listens to the SNCOs, chances are casualties are low and the mission is accomplished. If not...you know the story.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-21-2014, 04:33 PM
Great point. I guess we should just stop trying to discuss how things could be better and realize that we are stuck with things the way they are. I love your perspective as a leader. Keep the status quo and don't try to find ways to improve because it's just too hard.

Very typical of most "leaders" who take a suggestion that actually had some ideas behind it and write it off ass whining immediately. You're the best.

Thanks SJ,

I wouldn't say I'm the best, but just better than a lot of people.

I'm afraid I can't get behind your idea on revamping the promotion system just to accommodate a few people who can't study or perform on a multiple choice test.

Besides, there is the STEP program for those mythical "exceptional performers" who don't test well. Frankly, I'm not sure such a person exists. If they are so exceptional, then why do they have so much trouble kicking ass on a test?

As far as having good ideas and questioning the system, well, I'm all for that; provided, it is a solid improvement and not a bunch of belly aching.

Bottom line, life isn't fair, and it can be very cruel. Instead of wishing that Santa will protect you from an unjust system, how about adapting to that system and kicking a little ass first?

Then you might find people willing to listen to your ideas.

grimreaper
02-21-2014, 04:48 PM
That's also why you have SNCOs with that young lieutenant. In combat/operations, if the LT listens to the SNCOs, chances are casualties are low and the mission is accomplished. If not...you know the story.

Yup, given the results a lot of the time, it looks like the former happened less than the latter. Of course, I'm sure some of the time, it wouldn't matter who was in charge. The situation was lose-lose no matter what.

fufu
02-21-2014, 04:51 PM
Thanks SJ,

I'm afraid I can't get behind your idea on revamping the promotion system just to accommodate a few people who can't study or perform on a multiple choice test.

Besides, there is the STEP program for those mythical "exceptional performers" who don't test well. Frankly, I'm not sure such a person exists. If they are so exceptional, then why do they have so much trouble kicking ass on a test?

As far as having good ideas and questioning the system, well, I'm all for that; provided, it is a solid improvement and not a bunch of belly aching.

For the most part, I agree with the above statement. I can't hate a system that I've used to my advantage. While I see both sides of the issue, I think the system we have, while not perfect, is fair. If I could change anything, I'd drop the EPR points and decoration points. The EPR should be revamped as a promotion ready/not promotion ready....drop the points and move on. The decoration points are equally as subjective as the EPR points. Some bases/AORs give me decs than others....Someone who PCS's often will get more decs than another person. I don't think we should give an advantage to someone who constantly PCSs because they hate every base they are at.

sandsjames
02-21-2014, 05:34 PM
Thanks SJ,

I wouldn't say I'm the best, but just better than a lot of people.

I'm afraid I can't get behind your idea on revamping the promotion system just to accommodate a few people who can't study or perform on a multiple choice test.

Besides, there is the STEP program for those mythical "exceptional performers" who don't test well. Frankly, I'm not sure such a person exists. If they are so exceptional, then why do they have so much trouble kicking ass on a test?

As far as having good ideas and questioning the system, well, I'm all for that; provided, it is a solid improvement and not a bunch of belly aching.

Bottom line, life isn't fair, and it can be very cruel. Instead of wishing that Santa will protect you from an unjust system, how about adapting to that system and kicking a little ass first?

Then you might find people willing to listen to your ideas.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying the system needs to be revamped in order to make it easier for those who don't study to get promoted. The point is that the promotion system doesn't ensure that the best leaders are the ones promoted to leadership positions.

In a serious business like the military that includes life and death situations, the best leaders MUST be in charge. The Air Force promotion system doesn't ensure that. If you disagree with that statement then you've got some issues. People being placed in positions of leadership, with an impact on so many lives they are in charge of, should be required to show they have the ability to handle that type of situation. If it's whining to state that the Air Force should make every attempt to improve the quality of it's leadership then I guess I'm a whiner.

But, of course, you are like so many others in charge who instantly assume that any suggestion to fix something is belly aching. That's why the system will never improve.

sandsjames
02-21-2014, 05:36 PM
For the most part, I agree with the above statement. I can't hate a system that I've used to my advantage. While I see both sides of the issue, I think the system we have, while not perfect, is fair. If I could change anything, I'd drop the EPR points and decoration points. The EPR should be revamped as a promotion ready/not promotion ready....drop the points and move on. The decoration points are equally as subjective as the EPR points. Some bases/AORs give me decs than others....Someone who PCS's often will get more decs than another person. I don't think we should give an advantage to someone who constantly PCSs because they hate every base they are at.

Let's be honest. The decs and EPRs don't make the difference. The difference is all in the test. You can make up any deficiency in points by scoring well on the test. It does NOT ensure that he best leaders are in place. I'm not making excuses for those who don't score well on the test. I'm just saying that the current system makes it easy for non-leaders to be placed in very important positions.

SomeRandomGuy
02-21-2014, 05:50 PM
Let's be honest. The decs and EPRs don't make the difference. The difference is all in the test. You can make up any deficiency in points by scoring well on the test. It does NOT ensure that he best leaders are in place. I'm not making excuses for those who don't score well on the test. I'm just saying that the current system makes it easy for non-leaders to be placed in very important positions.

Right but the test is filled with questions you should know the answer to. Personally, I think a good supervisor should be able to answer their troops questions about promotion eligibility cut off dates and other things in the PDG that people don't think they should have to know.

As far as the SKT, it is questions about YOUR JOB. Especially in AFSCs like finance and personnel it amazes me that people have a hard time getting 50% of the questiosn right. The questions on the test are literally things they are being asked everyday. If I'm selecting someone to be NCOIC I want someone who knows the answers. Maybe other people would prefer a charismatic guy who people like to follow. The problem is those people tend to be bullshitters. If you want to be the boss you should have to prove you actually know what you are talking about. If you can't even get higher than 50% on a multiple choice test how will you ever answer anyone's question in the futurue when the answers aren't given to you to select from?

Mr. Happy
02-21-2014, 05:52 PM
I'd drop the EPR points and decoration points.

I wouldn't drop the dec points altogether, but I would reduce the value of them and the maximum dec points allowed for WAPS. Keep AFAMs as 1 point, but reduce AFCMs to 2 points and MSMs to 3 points and reduce the max dec points allowed to 15 points. As it stands now, most competitive SNCOs have 20+ points in decs, so just like EPR points, it's just another inflated piece of the overall WAPS score.

sandsjames
02-21-2014, 06:02 PM
Right but the test is filled with questions you should know the answer to. Personally, I think a good supervisor should be able to answer their troops questions about promotion eligibility cut off dates and other things in the PDG that people don't think they should have to know.

As far as the SKT, it is questions about YOUR JOB. Especially in AFSCs like finance and personnel it amazes me that people have a hard time getting 50% of the questiosn right. The questions on the test are literally things they are being asked everyday. If I'm selecting someone to be NCOIC I want someone who knows the answers. Maybe other people would prefer a charismatic guy who people like to follow. The problem is those people tend to be bullshitters. If you want to be the boss you should have to prove you actually know what you are talking about. If you can't even get higher than 50% on a multiple choice test how will you ever answer anyone's question in the futurue when the answers aren't given to you to select from?

I'm not talking about the fairness of the test. Everyone has the same opportunity to do well on the test, no matter what. So, for a personal position, it is the fairest way. As for the needs of the military, it is NOT the best way to have the best leaders in the leadership position.

fufu
02-21-2014, 06:43 PM
Let's be honest. The decs and EPRs don't make the difference. The difference is all in the test. You can make up any deficiency in points by scoring well on the test. It does NOT ensure that he best leaders are in place. I'm not making excuses for those who don't score well on the test. I'm just saying that the current system makes it easy for non-leaders to be placed in very important positions.

Maybe for Staff/Tech. But for Senior/Chief...I'd say the decorations and EPRs are more important.

I'm not arguing your point about the AF putting the best leaders in supervisor positions. Actually, I tend to agree with you.

fufu
02-21-2014, 06:44 PM
I'm not talking about the fairness of the test. Everyone has the same opportunity to do well on the test, no matter what. So, for a personal position, it is the fairest way. As for the needs of the military, it is NOT the best way to have the best leaders in the leadership position.

Agreed.

sandsjames
02-21-2014, 07:02 PM
Agreed.

I just find it funny that in order to qualify on the rifle you have to fire it. In order to prove you are fit you have to take a test based on fitness. In order to qualify on the fork lift (and other vehicles) you have to be trained by a qualified trainer. Yet, in order to be placed in a leadership position (arguably the most important position in the military) there is no oversight, other than to study or wait long enough in your grade without studying.

The same people who are disagreeing with me on this point are the same ones who are saying that, because we have so many people from so many backgrounds, it's important for the supervisors to help these kids progress, not only as military members, but as human beings. Yet there is nothing in place to ensure we are trained to do so. It just seems sort of strange that you have to be trained on everything else but you can be in charge of peoples lives simply by memorizing what uniform combinations can be worn together.

fufu
02-21-2014, 07:10 PM
I just find it funny that in order to qualify on the rifle you have to fire it. In order to prove you are fit you have to take a test based on fitness. In order to qualify on the fork lift (and other vehicles) you have to be trained by a qualified trainer. Yet, in order to be placed in a leadership position (arguably the most important position in the military) there is no oversight, other than to study or wait long enough in your grade without studying.

The same people who are disagreeing with me on this point are the same ones who are saying that, because we have so many people from so many backgrounds, it's important for the supervisors to help these kids progress, not only as military members, but as human beings. Yet there is nothing in place to ensure we are trained to do so. It just seems sort of strange that you have to be trained on everything else but you can be in charge of peoples lives simply by memorizing what uniform combinations can be worn together.

I'm picking up what you are putting down.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-21-2014, 07:34 PM
You're missing the point. I'm not saying the system needs to be revamped in order to make it easier for those who don't study to get promoted. The point is that the promotion system doesn't ensure that the best leaders are the ones promoted to leadership positions.

In a serious business like the military that includes life and death situations, the best leaders MUST be in charge. The Air Force promotion system doesn't ensure that. If you disagree with that statement then you've got some issues. People being placed in positions of leadership, with an impact on so many lives they are in charge of, should be required to show they have the ability to handle that type of situation. If it's whining to state that the Air Force should make every attempt to improve the quality of it's leadership then I guess I'm a whiner.

But, of course, you are like so many others in charge who instantly assume that any suggestion to fix something is belly aching. That's why the system will never improve.

While I like this tough talk out of you about the military being serious business, I don't think you have provided sufficient evidence that having promotion boards for all ranks will ensure that the "right people" will get promoted.

I go back to my statement on life being unfair and we as individuals have to deal with it. The wrong people get promoted all the time, and not just in the military.

sandsjames
02-21-2014, 07:38 PM
While I like this tough talk out of you about the military being serious business, I don't think you have provided sufficient evidence that having promotion boards for all ranks will ensure that the "right people" will get promoted.

I go back to my statement on life being unfair and we as individuals have to deal with it. The wrong people get promoted all the time, and not just in the military.

Glad to know that you don't care who's in charge of stuff. I see your point, though. It wouldn't be an easy fix and "leaders" really don't want to work on anything that takes too much time away from writing packages.

And still you miss my point. I'm not saying that anything is unfair. Holy shit, it's like explaining string theory to a 5 year old.

Can you just admit that the system isn't perfect and there has to be a better way to do it and, if done right, it would benefit the Air Force? Or are you pretty set on what's in place?

PburghNo1
02-21-2014, 07:41 PM
Right but the test is filled with questions you should know the answer to. Personally, I think a good supervisor should be able to answer their troops questions about promotion eligibility cut off dates and other things in the PDG that people don't think they should have to know.

As far as the SKT, it is questions about YOUR JOB. Especially in AFSCs like finance and personnel it amazes me that people have a hard time getting 50% of the questiosn right. The questions on the test are literally things they are being asked everyday. If I'm selecting someone to be NCOIC I want someone who knows the answers. Maybe other people would prefer a charismatic guy who people like to follow. The problem is those people tend to be bullshitters. If you want to be the boss you should have to prove you actually know what you are talking about. If you can't even get higher than 50% on a multiple choice test how will you ever answer anyone's question in the futurue when the answers aren't given to you to select from?

Not so fast my friend...my tests had zero to do with my actual job. In 11 years as a maintainer, never once did I set foot on an aircraft that was on my SKT (except for them to take me somewhere) BUT I was expected to know them just as well as those who worked them every day. Yes, I know the material came out of the CDCs and everyone has the same CDCs, but there's a certain familiarity that comes with knowing and having seen and touched what's on the page versus never having seen anything but the page. It's not all black and white like we tend to think.

LogDog
02-21-2014, 07:53 PM
For the most part, I agree with the above statement. I can't hate a system that I've used to my advantage. While I see both sides of the issue, I think the system we have, while not perfect, is fair. If I could change anything, I'd drop the EPR points and decoration points. The EPR should be revamped as a promotion ready/not promotion ready....drop the points and move on. The decoration points are equally as subjective as the EPR points. Some bases/AORs give me decs than others....Someone who PCS's often will get more decs than another person. I don't think we should give an advantage to someone who constantly PCSs because they hate every base they are at.
I agree with you on dropping the EPR and decoration points. EPRs have for decades been over inflated to the point almost everyone gets a "5" EPR. Do away with the EPR points and make it a Promote/Consider/Do Not Promote that way the EPR can be an honest reflection of their performance.

As for the decorations, they won't count until you go for MSgt, SMSgt, or Chief. This way, you won't have to have the "unwritten rule" about which ranks are eligible for decorations. As you said about decorations, some bases/AORs give out more than others. I was deployed to Croatia for four months during the Balkans Crisis and I got something like four decorations out of it. As for decorations for PCSing, I tended for years to PCS every 2 - 3 years so I got more Commendation and MSMs than others in my career field who tended to homestead. That's the way the system was then and it sounds like it's still the same way.

LogDog
02-21-2014, 08:02 PM
You're missing the point. I'm not saying the system needs to be revamped in order to make it easier for those who don't study to get promoted. The point is that the promotion system doesn't ensure that the best leaders are the ones promoted to leadership positions.

In a serious business like the military that includes life and death situations, the best leaders MUST be in charge. The Air Force promotion system doesn't ensure that. If you disagree with that statement then you've got some issues. People being placed in positions of leadership, with an impact on so many lives they are in charge of, should be required to show they have the ability to handle that type of situation. If it's whining to state that the Air Force should make every attempt to improve the quality of it's leadership then I guess I'm a whiner.

But, of course, you are like so many others in charge who instantly assume that any suggestion to fix something is belly aching. That's why the system will never improve.
The problem with identifying who should be a leader is of course subjective and tests don't always prove to be perfect in deciding who becomes a leader. I've known people who were bad at testing but were great leaders and vice versa. At the local level, it's apparent who the formal and informal leaders are and usually the informal leaders are the ones who do the best. But at AF MAJCOM or HQ AF level, that information isn't available and they have to go on established standards like tests and EPRs.

In the mid-80s, we had a visit to our clinic in England from either the AF Surgeon or USAFE Surgeon, a General, who said he had a sharp 1st Lt. in the Medical Service Corps who he was seriously considering making him commander of a clinic or hospital in USAFE. Either this 1st Lt. had something on the ball or something on the General, but it sounds like what you are talking about, putting someone in a leadership position who is best for that position.