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ihatenonners
12-12-2013, 04:09 AM
The Air Force unveiled today a sweeping list of voluntary and involuntary force management programs it hopes will reduce the ranks throughout 2014.

The force reduction measures — which will be the Air Force’s broadest since the drawdown of the early 1990s — are being put into place to help the service adjust to steep budget cuts known as the sequester.

“This has pretty much every tool in our toolkit at our disposal, both voluntary and involuntary,” Brig. Gen. Gina Grosso said in an interview. “Our strategy is to use the max use of voluntary programs that we can. Everywhere where we’ve been able to incentivize people to leave monetarily, we’re going to.”

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh has repeatedly warned that the sequester, if left in place, could force the service to cut roughly 25,000 total force airmen over the next five years. Grosso could not say exactly how many airmen the Air Force plans to cut under the 2014 force reductions because a final budget has not yet been passed for the year, but said it could be in the thousands. Grosso said the latest fiscal 2014 budget deal — if it passes — would leave the Air Force with an end strength of 1,900 fewer billets than it had in fiscal 2013, which match the end strength the administration’s proposed 2014 budget.

According to a timeline provided by the Air Force, the 18 programs will include reductions in force beginning in June, two rounds of date-of-separation rollbacks in January and May, and 15-year retirements for both officers and enlisted beginning in January. A selective early retirement board for colonels and lieutenant colonels is currently under way.

But the Air Force is also rolling out several new involuntary force management programs for the first time as part of this effort.

A new authority called the enhanced selective early retirement board, or E-SERB, will consider even more officers than under the regular SERB process. The E-SERB, the authority for which was granted in the fiscal 2013 National Defense Authorization Act, will meet in June and consider colonels with between two and four years time in grade, lieutenant colonels who have been passed over for promotion once, and retirement-eligible active-duty officers between the rank of captain and colonel.

The regular SERB applies to colonels with at least four years time-in-grade and lieutenant colonels who have been passed over at least twice. And under the regular SERB, officers can only be considered once during any five-year period, but the E-SERB has no such restriction.

Another new force management program, called a quality force review board, will meet in May. This board will consider separating airmen who have gone absent without leave, who have received a referral on their enlisted performance report, or otherwise screwed up. Airmen who have between 18 and 20 years of service will be excluded from the quality force review board.

The Air Force also is, for the first time, planning retention boards for chief master sergeants, tech sergeants, staff sergeants, senior airmen, and senior noncommissioned officers.

Grosso said the Air Force Personnel Center will e-mail airmen who are eligible for these force management programs, and also urged airmen to keep checking the MyPers website as more eligibility information on these programs is rolled out over the next two weeks.

She also said airmen should start talking to their commanders, career assistance advisers, and other mentors to find out whether they may be separated under one of these involuntary programs.

“Our goal is to make sure that every airman in the United States Air Force understands, if they fit into any of these buckets, and if I [do], how do I make a good decision for my family?” Grosso said. “Am I eligible for any voluntary programs, and which ones? We’d like for everyone eligible for these programs to immediately sign up for transition assistance. We think that will help them make a better life decision.”

And airmen should check their personnel folders to make sure their duty history, medal records, deployment records, and other career information is up to date before separation boards begin reviewing them, Grosso said. Sometimes records are accidentally omitted, she said, and an omission could hurt those airmen’s chances of staying in.

Grosso said the Air Force and Defense Department are already preparing to handle increased numbers of airmen exiting the service. That could include approving overtime for civilian personnel employees, increasing that capacity of civilian transition programs and preparing to issue even greater numbers of DD 214 records.

euripedes
12-12-2013, 06:13 AM
Yeah it was wonderful to wake up to that news although we knew something was coming.

25,000 over 5 years is trimming the fat and cutting the muscles as well.

Bohica
12-12-2013, 07:07 AM
Retention boards for E-4's through E-9's?!? This is getting crazy now.

imported_blacksheep1208
12-12-2013, 07:35 AM
Well it's been a fun ride. Maybe I'll have to take my talents to South Beach.

BUDJR8
12-12-2013, 07:41 AM
What I want to know is where or will it ever stop...we may see the day where there is no longer an active military...cut, cut, cut...the rest of the world is laughing at us.

imported_blacksheep1208
12-12-2013, 07:42 AM
What I want to know is where or will it ever stop...we may see the day where there is no longer an active military...cut, cut, cut...the rest of the world is laughing at us.

It will stop when all that's left is people that volunteer 24/7 and get 100's on their PT test.

technomage1
12-12-2013, 08:03 AM
Sad thing I want to retire. I'd take the early retirement but will be shocked if its offered for my field/rank group. Some poor schhlep who wants to stay in will be kicked out instead.

imnohero
12-12-2013, 11:01 AM
Apparently on mypers, you can read that actual announcement...I don't have access to it anymore (retired) but some of the articles I read this morning indicate that all the "Phase I" cuts will be voluntary with separation pay for enlisted with 6-20 years of service. If the 90s programs are any indication, this will get BigBlue the majority of volunteers they need. Retirement eligible CMSgts will be looked at in a March 2014 board, unless they've already put in for retirment. Temporary Early Retirement Authorization (TERA) will be available for enlisted with 15-20 years of service starting in January. There is a lot more in there, including about how they are dealing with the officer side of the house, but like I said I havn't been able to read the actual announcement. Definitely time to consider all your options.

71Fish
12-12-2013, 12:36 PM
Until the next crisis, which is overdue. We will have to recruit all those lost and then some, bonuses and other retention tools will be put back into place. "They" don't look far enough ahead.

Giant Voice
12-12-2013, 12:58 PM
Until the next crisis, which is overdue. We will have to recruit all those lost and then some, bonuses and other retention tools will be put back into place. "They" don't look far enough ahead.

Yep, reminds me of post Cold War/DS1 cuts, except this will be more intrusive in nature. If you have any potholes in your career recently...byebye!

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-12-2013, 01:08 PM
All I can say is, if you were thinking of getting out soon, do so on your own terms. Don't wait for big AF to send you to some shithole, then non-vol you out the door later. Also, make sure all education you get now is geared toward your prep to be a civilian.

Yeah, you've heard the speeches, "you're all such very special 'warriors' and we value your patriotism and hard work, blah, blah, blah." Guess what sports fans? When big blue shows you the door, they don't and won't give an eff how you pay your bills. This is just a fact of life. Time to take care of #1.

Sergeant eNYgma
12-12-2013, 01:29 PM
It will stop when all that's left is people that volunteer 24/7 and get 100's on their PT test.

And they're all Generals...

Sergeant eNYgma
12-12-2013, 01:33 PM
All I can say is, if you were thinking of getting out soon, do so on your own terms. Don't wait for big AF to send you to some shithole, then non-vol you out the door later. Also, make sure all education you get now is geared toward your prep to be a civilian.

Yeah, you've heard the speeches, "you're all such very special 'warriors' and we value your patriotism and hard work, blah, blah, blah." Guess what sports fans? When big blue shows you the door, they don't and won't give an eff how you pay your bills. This is just a fact of life. Time to take care of #1.

Just recently finished my CCAF like a couple months ago, it's time to get cracking on the Bachelors...wanted to be in for a career but this is ridiculous...

Kalbo607
12-12-2013, 01:44 PM
Yet AFPC is still forcing people to PCS with less than 4 years time on station and then incur 24 months of an active duty service commintment, and go beyond 20 years of service. Still tons of money being wasted with PCS moves that are not needed.

DWWSWWD
12-12-2013, 04:40 PM
All I can say is, if you were thinking of getting out soon, do so on your own terms. Don't wait for big AF to send you to some shithole, then non-vol you out the door later. Also, make sure all education you get now is geared toward your prep to be a civilian.

Yeah, you've heard the speeches, "you're all such very special 'warriors' and we value your patriotism and hard work, blah, blah, blah." Guess what sports fans? When big blue shows you the door, they don't and won't give an eff how you pay your bills. This is just a fact of life. Time to take care of #1.

Harsh words, FLAPS but sometimes it takes harsh words to get folks to see where we're at. I was talking with someone the other day about my possibly retiring next year. Got some beautiful words about all the things I have to offer and the great things I could do for the Air Force, blah, bah. I said "The Air Force is kicking me out in 4 years. Regardless of what I do, how great I have been or will be, the fact is they are kicking me out." On my timeline, I can control my location, my kid's High School, my wife's job etc. This is a big deal. Get smart on it, for you and your folks. Get to school. CCAF should be your first stop because you may not have time for anything else. Find out about your $4,500 certification allowance and use it. We are going to lose some good folks because over the years, we haven't done the right things to identify the mediocre ones.

raider8169
12-12-2013, 08:08 PM
If this is offered when I hit 15 years I may take up the retirement option. Still have 2 years to go but I dont think I will have my masters by then.

Slyoldawg
12-12-2013, 10:08 PM
Well it's been a fun ride. Maybe I'll have to take my talents to South Beach.

Reduction in forces is nothing new after each "war" is finished. A word of advice from a Vietnam Vet who experienced these actions after we cut and ran from Vietnam. When active duty reduced its forces the reserves picked up a shit load of duties that the regular forces could not hack. There became a whole 'nother position invented called "The Professional Reservist" In that position of any career field that needed bodies an individual could pile up active duty tours in increments of one day (Mandays) to weeks at a time. Jimmy Carter in September 1981 signed into law an act to allow Air Force individuals who accumulated 20 years of active duty to retire under the regular retirement system. Prior to that only Navy and Marine troops could retire that way under the "TAR" program. I would suggest that anyone who has to leave the active service to check into the reserve branch of their service to save those active duty days that they have already served and could add to by performing reserve duties.
Of course when you retire that way there are no farewell parties, plaques nor handshakes. You receive your retirement orders by snailmail without even a "Goodbye" but the pay is the same.

sandsjames
12-12-2013, 10:12 PM
If you can wait this out for 3 or 4 years, they'll be giving huge bonuses again. It's all the same cycle we've seen since the early 90's.

Sergeant eNYgma
12-13-2013, 01:25 PM
If you can wait this out for 3 or 4 years, they'll be giving huge bonuses again. It's all the same cycle we've seen since the early 90's.

I'm counting on it....

SomeRandomGuy
12-13-2013, 02:45 PM
Reduction in forces is nothing new after each "war" is finished. A word of advice from a Vietnam Vet who experienced these actions after we cut and ran from Vietnam. When active duty reduced its forces the reserves picked up a shit load of duties that the regular forces could not hack. There became a whole 'nother position invented called "The Professional Reservist" In that position of any career field that needed bodies an individual could pile up active duty tours in increments of one day (Mandays) to weeks at a time. Jimmy Carter in September 1981 signed into law an act to allow Air Force individuals who accumulated 20 years of active duty to retire under the regular retirement system. Prior to that only Navy and Marine troops could retire that way under the "TAR" program. I would suggest that anyone who has to leave the active service to check into the reserve branch of their service to save those active duty days that they have already served and could add to by performing reserve duties.
Of course when you retire that way there are no farewell parties, plaques nor handshakes. You receive your retirement orders by snailmail without even a "Goodbye" but the pay is the same.

This is actually really good advice for anyone. If you have something like 10 years of Active Duty and you plan on leaving you should definitly take that time over to the Reserves. It doesn't take a whole lot more than that to collect a Reserve Retirment (won't get paid antything until after 60). Might as well get something from your service plus if you have trouble finding a job you can always pick up a set of orders for a few months.

Playfair
12-13-2013, 03:53 PM
Take this from someone who has been retired for some time. When the Air Force is through with you, they are through with you. You won't get a second look. Never, ever place the Air Force before your family, they are all you have left when you retire. Once your time is up, you are a civilian and only a drag on the Air Force and hte military as a whole. They want to do nothing for you and will do anything they can to reduce what thye are paying you. Watch out for yourself.

snowman
12-13-2013, 04:45 PM
I need to make a decision on whether or not to try and take one of the voluntary programs such as TERA. I just passed 18 years but I have been on a PT Profile for the past few years, and will remain on one for the rest of my life. With the AF looking for any and all ways to get rid of people, I think it may be best to retire while I still can. I would not be surprised in the slightest if they found a way to kick me to the curb and give me nothing.

DWWSWWD
12-13-2013, 05:44 PM
I need to make a decision on whether or not to try and take one of the voluntary programs such as TERA. I just passed 18 years but I have been on a PT Profile for the past few years, and will remain on one for the rest of my life. With the AF looking for any and all ways to get rid of people, I think it may be best to retire while I still can. I would not be surprised in the slightest if they found a way to kick me to the curb and give me nothing.

Short answer - I would

Blah, blah blah - It doesn't seem at this point that you'd not be able to make it 2 more years. The retention boards for SNCOs are for retirement eligible folks only. But what about DOS rollback? Historically, those folks have been identified with a code for disciplinary action, turning down PME etc. Nothing for profiles. But what if AF doesn't get the numbers they need? What about next year? What if TERA quotas are met, but the need to cut folks remains. As a couple folks have pointed out, it is not about you or your family. Finally, apologies in advance, given that we'll probably need to cut more folks than we can easily identify with quality force indicators, and therefore will lose some good folks in the process, are you an Airman that should be retained?

SomeRandomGuy
12-13-2013, 06:12 PM
I need to make a decision on whether or not to try and take one of the voluntary programs such as TERA. I just passed 18 years but I have been on a PT Profile for the past few years, and will remain on one for the rest of my life. With the AF looking for any and all ways to get rid of people, I think it may be best to retire while I still can. I would not be surprised in the slightest if they found a way to kick me to the curb and give me nothing.

The way to look at this is to compare it to an NFL roster. During the preseason teams can carry up to 90 players. This allows them to have people on the roster who are injured or are in development. As the season gets closer financial constraints and roster limitations force cuts. Ineveitably teams lose some talent they never identified. Before teams look at cutting taleneted players though they take a look at people with injuries. The AF right now is being forced to cut its roster down. Every position is valuable and you will see a point where we can no longer carry injured people. This of course isn't a perfect analogy but you probably get the gist of what I am saying. As more and more cuts happen each position becomes even more valuable. At first the AF will take the easy way out and ask for people to leave. After that quality indicators come next. After that what is the next logical indicator? It would almost have to be physical health. Keeping people with fewer health problems makes sense from a medical cost standpoint and from a get the mission done standpoint.

VCO
12-14-2013, 12:17 AM
We definitely have some dead weight that can be let go. I'm just hoping leadership does this smartly and cuts the right people. Folks that are just hanging on like clingers and not provided a benefit need to go pull that crap elsewhere. We are simply spread too thin to be a welfare system.

John Jameson
12-14-2013, 02:32 AM
I'd recommend anyone who is eligible to take the money and run like the wind. It ain't gonna get better for another 5 years (or until the next shooting war) and life out here in the civvy world is good. No PT, Wingman days, SAPR crapper, CC calls, etc, etc, etc...

ihatenonners
12-14-2013, 03:36 AM
I have an airman who has an Article 15/UIF and wants to get out. My advice to him was to not volunteer and to wait until they kick him out because an involuntary seperation will net him more money. Am I correct in that assumption? I cant imagine the guys that voluntarily seperate are going to be given seperation pay equal to a non-vol.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-14-2013, 04:54 AM
Voluntary pay is typically more than non-vol separation pay. They do this as an incentive to volunteer to get out.

ihatenonners
12-14-2013, 05:33 AM
Oh wow that's interesting. Is that information available anywhere?

crwchf16
12-14-2013, 06:38 AM
I can't say that this is really a surprise but I do have a couple questions about it.
1. I just read that a budget deal was passed by congress for the next 2 years so are we actually under sequstration still? If not, why are we cutting airmen?
2. If we slash our personnel and aircraft will we also scale back our deployment commitments?

DWWSWWD
12-14-2013, 02:54 PM
I have an airman who has an Article 15/UIF and wants to get out. My advice to him was to not volunteer and to wait until they kick him out because an involuntary seperation will net him more money. Am I correct in that assumption? I cant imagine the guys that voluntarily seperate are going to be given seperation pay equal to a non-vol. The UIF will cause him to be identified for DOS rollback which is not the same as an involuntary separation program.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-14-2013, 03:49 PM
I can't say that this is really a surprise but I do have a couple questions about it.
1. I just read that a budget deal was passed by congress for the next 2 years so are we actually under sequstration still? If not, why are we cutting airmen?
2. If we slash our personnel and aircraft will we also scale back our deployment commitments?

Only some of the $50 billion annual sequestration cuts will be removed, and that's IF the Senate passes this bill next week. Keep in mind that only the House approved the bill, not the entire Congress. Right now, there are zero Republican Senators who will vote yes, when they need at least five to get on board. Either way, the 25K personnel cut is a five year plan to address sequestration, so this bill does little to avoid sequestration over the long term.

imnohero
12-14-2013, 03:54 PM
To be frank, I think the "sequestration cuts" are just the trigger. I seem to recall that the AF never actually completed the drawdown from the 90s and has been over it's congressional authorization for a long time.

chevyman
12-14-2013, 09:50 PM
After hearing all this, I am glad I retired when I did.

AF2017
12-16-2013, 07:47 AM
IMO, I think this is just the start of some major down sizing. I remember Gen Welsh talking about significant cuts in our manning over the next 10 years. I think this will begin as a small cut and see how it goes. I would not be surprised if that number (25K) grows significantly.

efmbman
12-16-2013, 12:56 PM
When comparing stats from SEP2001 (War on Terror starts) to SEP2013 (most recent available), I found only one category that showed growth:

General Officers (O7-O10): +33
Field Grade Officers (O4-O6): -1030
Company Grade Officers (O1-O3): -3067
Sr NCO (E7-E9): -3146
NCO (E4-E6): -833
AMN (E1-E3): -14,656
Source: Defense Manpower Data Center

I wonder what the future holds for the stars.

PburghNo1
12-16-2013, 01:59 PM
From the Q & A:

Q1. Why is the Air Force announcing this now when details on specific career fields aren’t available?
A1. The service has made a conscious decision to announce these force management programs now in order to give Airmen as much time as possible to plan for their futures and make informed decisions.

So let me get this straight...I'm supposed to make an "informed decision" without the details (also known as "the information")?

DWWSWWD
12-16-2013, 02:04 PM
From the Q & A:

Q1. Why is the Air Force announcing this now when details on specific career fields aren’t available?
A1. The service has made a conscious decision to announce these force management programs now in order to give Airmen as much time as possible to plan for their futures and make informed decisions.

So let me get this straight...I'm supposed to make an "informed decision" without the details (also known as "the information")? I bet it will come quick. I got the one for the Chiefs this morning. Basically, if you are a Chief with a 4 EPR, you need to apply for retirement. I need to hurry up and retire before all of the bagger jobs are taken at the commissary.

PburghNo1
12-16-2013, 02:16 PM
I bet it will come quick. I got the one for the Chiefs this morning. Basically, if you are a Chief with a 4 EPR, you need to apply for retirement. I need to hurry up and retire before all of the bagger jobs are taken at the commissary.

I'd love to be able to retire...buuuuut...I'm in the strange position of being in between 15-20, yet (according to the limited info out there) not eligible for TERA if I wanted it...hence my wish for details.

Let me know if the commissary's full...

sandsjames
12-16-2013, 04:39 PM
I bet it will come quick. I got the one for the Chiefs this morning. Basically, if you are a Chief with a 4 EPR, you need to apply for retirement. I need to hurry up and retire before all of the bagger jobs are taken at the commissary.


We can always use more baggers. There's no quota for that. Well, until they shut all commissaries...

BRUWIN
12-16-2013, 07:59 PM
I got the one for the Chiefs this morning. Basically, if you are a Chief with a 4 EPR, you need to apply for retirement.

That's BS if they do that...a 4 is an above average EPR.

Chief_KO
12-16-2013, 08:11 PM
I bet it will come quick. I got the one for the Chiefs this morning. Basically, if you are a Chief with a 4 EPR, you need to apply for retirement. I need to hurry up and retire before all of the bagger jobs are taken at the commissary.

Surprised they didn't also include a minimum number of marathons run per year, 32" waist maximum, and a "Hooah" quota...

imported_DannyJ
12-17-2013, 12:59 AM
I bet it will come quick. I got the one for the Chiefs this morning. Basically, if you are a Chief with a 4 EPR, you need to apply for retirement. I need to hurry up and retire before all of the bagger jobs are taken at the commissary.

I know of at least one "Chief" in this cat. Be happy to see that individual gone.

Shaken1976
12-17-2013, 11:47 AM
I hit 18 yrs in a week. Just had surgery and am under MEB. Failed my last pt test with a 74.3. Referral EPR. Couldn't do TERA because of medical code last time. Now I am worried about the DOS rollbacks. Or will my MEB code exempt me

J.D.C.
12-17-2013, 02:27 PM
From the FY14 Enlisted Date of Separation (DOS) Rollback Program Memo:



This PSDM announces the enlisted DOS Rollback Program for FY14. Please note this program is different than previous years. The purpose of the DOS Rollback program is a way to manage the force by identifying Airmen who have declined to obtain retainability for assignments, training, retraining, or Professional Military Education (PME). The attachments in this PSDM contain specific eligibility criteria and procedural guidance for administering the FY14 Enlisted DOS Rollback Program.


The enlisted DOS Rollback Program accelerates the DOS of Airmen who declined to acquire retainability for assignment, training, retraining, or PME and have less than 15 years of Total Active Federal Military Service (TAFMS) or 20 years or more of TAFMS as of the mandatory separation/retirement date. The mandatory retirement date is 1 May 2014 for those retiring and the mandatory separation date is 31 May 14 for those separating.

b. Airmen notified by their commander (verbally or in writing) that they are under investigation, pending administrative discharge or court-martial charges, placed on medical or administrative hold, appellate leave, or UCMJ action is under consideration/pending are not eligible for this DOS Rollback. These actions take priority over this program.

Emphasis mine. MEB if you are coded right, is medical hold and you state you are about to hit 18, so your not in the window anyway.

J.D.C.
12-17-2013, 02:39 PM
That's BS if they do that...a 4 is an above average EPR.

I wonder if that is a 4 on top, a 4 as a Chief, or a 4 ever? It isnt clear in the message.

denmom
12-17-2013, 04:37 PM
I hit 18 yrs in a week. Just had surgery and am under MEB. Failed my last pt test with a 74.3. Referral EPR. Couldn't do TERA because of medical code last time. Now I am worried about the DOS rollbacks. Or will my MEB code exempt me

Hope this helps.
e. Airmen pending action under the disability evaluation system under AFI 36-3212, Physical Evaluation for Retention, Retirement, and Separation, as of the date of this PSDM, are not eligible for this DOS Rollback.

BadBender
12-18-2013, 04:29 AM
Here is what I got from a friend earlier today:

*** FORCE MANAGEMENT UPDATE ***

Airmen with negative codes will meet the Quality Force Review Board
Negative Indicator Codes:
Reporting Identifier 9A100 – Airman awaiting retraining due to disqualification
Reporting Identifier 9A200 – Airman awaiting discharge for cause
Promotion Eligibility Status R & Assignment Avail Code 19 – Referral performance report
Grade Status Reason 4B – Grade reduction
Reenlistment Eligibility Code 4G – No AFSC skill level commensurate with grade
Reenlistment Eligibility Code 4F - Five or more days lost time
Reenlistment Eligibility Code 4E – Rank not commensurate with years of service
Reenlistment Eligibility Code 4J – Received poor fitness assessment
Reenlistment Eligibility Code 2X & Assignment Avail Code 10 – Airman denied reenlistment
Reenlistment Eligibility Code 4I & Assignment Avail Code 16 – Serving on Control Roster
Reenlistment Eligibilty 2E - Disqualified Airman (for cause), Return to Duty Program
Reenlistment Eligibility Code 4H & Assignment Avail Code 12 – Serving suspended Art 15
Punishment
Airmen will be boarded using Performance Reports (last 10 yrs) , Decorations, Data Brief and Retention Recommendation Form (RRF)

guessthatsit
12-19-2013, 12:30 AM
Well sh*t. I've been in 10 years, and got a Article 15/UIF 6 months ago for a bar fight in Japan. As the highest ranking person involved I got hit the hardest, but I got to keep my stripe. My carrer otherwise has been pretty normal. Not a war hero but not a dirtbag either. Anyway at this point i'm 100% convinced I will be a civilian this time next year. What do you guys think will be the best route to take? Take the VSP money and run? Do we even know how much money that's going to be yet? Or should I wait it out and hope I make the cut? I'm leaning heavily towards VSP. I figure that even if I did make the cut, I would have to just sweat this crap out all over again in 2014. And then again in 2015 and so on. I'm not trying to live my life with this mess hanging over my head. Thoughts?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-19-2013, 12:38 AM
Well sh*t. I've been in 10 years, and got a Article 15/UIF 6 months ago for a bar fight in Japan. As the highest ranking person involved I got hit the hardest, but I got to keep my stripe. My carrer otherwise has been pretty normal. Not a war hero but not a dirtbag either. Anyway at this point i'm 100% convinced I will be a civilian this time next year. What do you guys think will be the best route to take? Take the VSP money and run? Do we even know how much money that's going to be yet? Or should I wait it out and hope I make the cut? I'm leaning heavily towards VSP. I figure that even if I did make the cut, I would have to just sweat this crap out all over again in 2014. And then again in 2015 and so on. I'm not trying to live my life with this mess hanging over my head. Thoughts?

Considering our gov has absolutely no qualms about slashing "promised" retired benefits, even after touting their "don't worry, you'll be grandfathered" lies, I highly suggest anyone with 10 more years to go to consider bailing. Take the money, use the GI Bill, and start a new career. 10 years from now you'll thank yourself, as you weep for those who stuck it out for a retirement check that was never delivered.

crwchf16
12-19-2013, 07:22 AM
Considering our gov has absolutely no qualms about slashing "promised" retired benefits, even after touting their "don't worry, you'll be grandfathered" lies, I highly suggest anyone with 10 more years to go to consider bailing. Take the money, use the GI Bill, and start a new career. 10 years from now you'll thank yourself, as you weep for those who stuck it out for a retirement check that was never delivered.

FLAPS I think you described perfectly the big question we have all been quietly worrying about. I want to stick out my carreer 4 more years to the 20-year mark but I don't know if that is the wisest course, given the current climate.

denmom
12-19-2013, 02:50 PM
Considering our gov has absolutely no qualms about slashing "promised" retired benefits, even after touting their "don't worry, you'll be grandfathered" lies, I highly suggest anyone with 10 more years to go to consider bailing. Take the money, use the GI Bill, and start a new career. 10 years from now you'll thank yourself, as you weep for those who stuck it out for a retirement check that was never delivered.

Here's to hoping the early retirement option info is release soon. I'm ready to start a new career.

RetC141BFCC
12-20-2013, 01:00 PM
For those of you waiting on this I wish you luck. If Big Blue is going to force people out with more than 15 years I pray they offer Early Retirement to you all. Please use this as a learning tool. Start getting your shit together for Civilian Life. You may not be forced out this time but it might come around again. Get your education IF your Job requires special certification such as an Airframe and Powerplant License for aircraft maintenance get it now. You have given lots of years to Big Blue now it’s time to prepare yourself and your family for getting out. Pay down those bills TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF NOW BIG BLUE HAS SHOWED THEY WILL NOT TAKE CARE OF YOU.

J.D.C.
12-20-2013, 01:22 PM
For those of you waiting on this I wish you luck. If Big Blue is going to force people out with more than 15 years I pray they offer Early Retirement to you all. Please use this as a learning tool. Start getting your shit together for Civilian Life. You may not be forced out this time but it might come around again. Get your education IF your Job requires special certification such as an Airframe and Powerplant License for aircraft maintenance get it now. You have given lots of years to Big Blue now it’s time to prepare yourself and your family for getting out. Pay down those bills TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF NOW BIG BLUE HAS SHOWED THEY WILL NOT TAKE CARE OF YOU.

TERA is on the table for those over 15 years that get nabbed by one of the programs.

YesIam
12-20-2013, 01:22 PM
I've been to a few briefings already and have made a few phone calls to AFPC myself.

There were only 93 people Air Force wide that were hit with the DOS rollback, all of them have been notified already. If you didn't get notifed that it wasn't you.

How the indicators work, AFPC pulled a report on 18 Dec. Anybody who had an active indicator on that day will have their records reviewed. This of course is what the folks at my base were told yesterday, however over the past week information has changed on a daily basis so they could run a new report with different information.

They stressed over and over at every briefing and on every email, don't consider yourself safe from this. Plan as if your name is on top of the list.

RetC141BFCC
12-20-2013, 03:13 PM
TERA is on the table for those over 15 years that get nabbed by one of the programs.

Thanks for the info

WeaponsTSGT
12-20-2013, 06:41 PM
I need to make a decision on whether or not to try and take one of the voluntary programs such as TERA. I just passed 18 years but I have been on a PT Profile for the past few years, and will remain on one for the rest of my life. With the AF looking for any and all ways to get rid of people, I think it may be best to retire while I still can. I would not be surprised in the slightest if they found a way to kick me to the curb and give me nothing.

Yes you need to bail, we were almost in the same boat except I'm currently under MEB and do not have the chance to to the route of TERA. I'm a MSgt with 18 years, if you choose TERA you will qualify for concurrent receipt, however if you roll the dice and they initiate an MEB on you, you will not. I will be losing around 24k a year by not being able to retire and draw concurrent receipt, it's the difference between having to work and not.

WeaponsTSGT
12-20-2013, 06:45 PM
Hope this helps.
e. Airmen pending action under the disability evaluation system under AFI 36-3212, Physical Evaluation for Retention, Retirement, and Separation, as of the date of this PSDM, are not eligible for this DOS Rollback.

If you are code 37 for MEB you can not be administratively separated, the MEB has to run it's course, if you are returned to duty, then yes you can be chopped.

J.D.C.
12-20-2013, 07:24 PM
Yes you need to bail, we were almost in the same boat except I'm currently under MEB and do not have the chance to to the route of TERA. I'm a MSgt with 18 years, if you choose TERA you will qualify for concurrent receipt, however if you roll the dice and they initiate an MEB on you, you will not. I will be losing around 24k a year by not being able to retire and draw concurrent receipt, it's the difference between having to work and not.

Same here, but I am a MSgt with 15

snowman
12-21-2013, 05:49 AM
Yes you need to bail, we were almost in the same boat except I'm currently under MEB and do not have the chance to to the route of TERA. I'm a MSgt with 18 years, if you choose TERA you will qualify for concurrent receipt, however if you roll the dice and they initiate an MEB on you, you will not. I will be losing around 24k a year by not being able to retire and draw concurrent receipt, it's the difference between having to work and not.

Would love to bail, but looking at the amount of retirment i'd be getting is scary. 18year MSgt who took REDUX....would hate to think I wasted 18 years of my life for 900 bucks a month

J.D.C.
12-21-2013, 01:16 PM
I hit 18 yrs in a week. Just had surgery and am under MEB. Failed my last pt test with a 74.3. Referral EPR. Couldn't do TERA because of medical code last time. Now I am worried about the DOS rollbacks. Or will my MEB code exempt me

They just released the msg for the QFRB.


Airmen pending action under the disability evaluation system under AFI 36-3212, Physical Evaluation for Retention, Retirement, and Separation, are eligible for consideration by the QFRB. If consideration under the disability evaluation system is not completed 60 days prior to the established date of separation, the Medical Treatment Facility (MTF) must initiate medical hold action through AFPC/DPANM. AFPC/DPANM will notify AFPC/DPSOR to suspend the Airman’s retirement/separation and to adjust the HYT to allow the Airman to extend for medical evaluation processing. Airmen approved for separation/retirement under AFI 36-3212 will have their dates of separation established in accordance with that governing directive. Airmen subsequently returned to duty will have their separation date adjusted to the last day of the third month following return to duty. Those retirement-eligible Airmen will have their retirement dates established as the first day of the month following the adjusted date of separation.

WeaponsTSGT
12-21-2013, 05:43 PM
Would love to bail, but looking at the amount of retirment i'd be getting is scary. 18year MSgt who took REDUX....would hate to think I wasted 18 years of my life for 900 bucks a month

If they were to MEB you, you won't lose the 10% for REDUX.

Rusty Jones
12-21-2013, 10:23 PM
I would think that the Air Force would have learned from the public backlash that the Navy got from doing the exact same thing back in 2011 with its Enlisted Review Board (ERB). I guess that hasn't happened.

imnohero
12-21-2013, 11:53 PM
You might think that, I agree. But the resistance of AF leadership to taking advice from the other services is beyond reason. Hell, the AF came up with the whole "AEF" concept just to undermine (read: steal) Navy funding.

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-23-2013, 12:00 AM
If they waived my CSB/REDUX, I would try for Palace Chase. Unfortunately, I believe The AF won't let a 2A571 leave right now.

technomage1
12-23-2013, 05:45 AM
Did anyone else notice that one of the codes - along with refusing an assignment and getting not keeping skill commiserate with grade - is a fitness failure? God help you if you are in an overage field and failed your PT test as of dec 18th.

One. Mistake. AF.

Mcjohn1118
12-23-2013, 01:57 PM
Did anyone else notice that one of the codes - along with refusing an assignment and getting not keeping skill commiserate with grade - is a fitness failure? God help you if you are in an overage field and failed your PT test as of dec 18th.

One. Mistake. AF.

I asked our shirt about this. Since you have to hand-jam the code into the system, this code is often overlooked and not coded for fitness failures. However, I can see some units looking to do this now. But then, this would go against the whole four failures in 24-month period decision to separate. Crazy.

TSat75
12-24-2013, 05:12 AM
Couple of notes.

If you are over 18 and under 20, you cannot be forced out due to downsizing - sanctuary. You can be forced out for cause (fitness failure, courts martial, etc...), but not for downsizing. That is why on each PSDM, they have the caveat that if you are between 18 and 20, you are safe from the invol programs. This does not, however, prevent you from applying for the voluntary programs as you desire - for instance, if you are 18 and have trouble with fitness, and know you are likely to continue those struggles - might be wise to take the TERA.

Also - if you take TERA, you will still get concurrent receipt as your time is considered served in full - that is why you'll get to keep your GI Bill transfer benefits even if you do not serve the ADSC (ie: it is waived under TERA). If you are MEB'd out before 20, you will not get concurrent receipt - so something to keep in mind as you speak with your doctors.

I'm at 19 1/2 with an already approved retirement date...and I can't wait - just 4 1/2 months left to hit terminal...and that can't come fast enough.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-24-2013, 11:55 AM
Couple of notes.

If you are over 18 and under 20, you cannot be forced out due to downsizing - sanctuary. You can be forced out for cause (fitness failure, courts martial, etc...), but not for downsizing. That is why on each PSDM, they have the caveat that if you are between 18 and 20, you are safe from the invol programs. This does not, however, prevent you from applying for the voluntary programs as you desire - for instance, if you are 18 and have trouble with fitness, and know you are likely to continue those struggles - might be wise to take the TERA.

Also - if you take TERA, you will still get concurrent receipt as your time is considered served in full - that is why you'll get to keep your GI Bill transfer benefits even if you do not serve the ADSC (ie: it is waived under TERA). If you are MEB'd out before 20, you will not get concurrent receipt - so something to keep in mind as you speak with your doctors.

I'm at 19 1/2 with an already approved retirement date...and I can't wait - just 4 1/2 months left to hit terminal...and that can't come fast enough.

Do you remember what AFI states that about sanctuary? It's been a long time since I looked it up, but it addressed sanctuary specifically for officers, not enlisted. I believe it's one of the 36-series AFIs.

TSat75
12-24-2013, 01:39 PM
Do you remember what AFI states that about sanctuary? It's been a long time since I looked it up, but it addressed sanctuary specifically for officers, not enlisted. I believe it's one of the 36-series AFIs.

I'll have to dig again. We just dug it up the other day for a fella that works with me who didn't believe me. I know it is definately in Title 10 of the USC. There is sanctuary specific to Guard/Reserve, and then there is another section that applies to Active Duty. The only reason there is a separate breakout for Guard/Reserve is to explicitly address the differences in how the accumulate Active Duty, but the law is there to keep someone who has accuulated 18 years of Active Duty time (either regular service, ANG, or Reserve) from being "layed off". This prevents CC's or the service from doing just what they would do if they could - take 19 years of service for someone and then show them the door just before retirement eligible. The service says you are never "vested"...we have a cliff based retirement system. But sanctuary protects you from being let go after serving so many years toward retirement.

The PSDMs reflect this law as well - they all say (for non-vol) that if you are over 18 and under 20 years of service, you will not be eligible for the programs (DOS Rollback, QOF reviews, RIF, etc...)

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-24-2013, 02:44 PM
I'll have to dig again. We just dug it up the other day for a fella that works with me who didn't believe me. I know it is definately in Title 10 of the USC. There is sanctuary specific to Guard/Reserve, and then there is another section that applies to Active Duty. The only reason there is a separate breakout for Guard/Reserve is to explicitly address the differences in how the accumulate Active Duty, but the law is there to keep someone who has accuulated 18 years of Active Duty time (either regular service, ANG, or Reserve) from being "layed off". This prevents CC's or the service from doing just what they would do if they could - take 19 years of service for someone and then show them the door just before retirement eligible. The service says you are never "vested"...we have a cliff based retirement system. But sanctuary protects you from being let go after serving so many years toward retirement.

The PSDMs reflect this law as well - they all say (for non-vol) that if you are over 18 and under 20 years of service, you will not be eligible for the programs (DOS Rollback, QOF reviews, RIF, etc...)

I found it.

10 U.S. Code § 1176 - Enlisted members: retention after completion of 18 or more, but less than 20, years of service

(a) Regular Members.— A regular enlisted member who is selected to be involuntarily separated, or whose term of enlistment expires and who is denied reenlistment, and who on the date on which the member is to be discharged is within two years of qualifying for retirement under section 3914 or 8914 of this title, or of qualifying for transfer to the Fleet Reserve or Fleet Marine Corps Reserve under section 6330 of this title, shall be retained on active duty until the member is qualified for retirement or transfer to the Fleet Reserve or Fleet Marine Corps Reserve, as the case may be, unless the member is sooner retired or discharged under any other provision of law.
(b) Reserve Members in Active Status.— A reserve enlisted member serving in an active status who is selected to be involuntarily separated (other than for physical disability or for cause), or whose term of enlistment expires and who is denied reenlistment (other than for physical disability or for cause), and who on the date on which the member is to be discharged or transferred from an active status is entitled to be credited with at least 18 but less than 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title, may not be discharged, denied reenlistment, or transferred from an active status without the member’s consent before the earlier of the following:
(1) If as of the date on which the member is to be discharged or transferred from an active status the member has at least 18, but less than 19, years of service computed under section 12732 of this title—
(A) the date on which the member is entitled to be credited with 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title; or
(B) the third anniversary of the date on which the member would otherwise be discharged or transferred from an active status.
(2) If as of the date on which the member is to be discharged or transferred from an active status the member has at least 19, but less than 20, years of service computed under section 12732 of this title—
(A) the date on which the member is entitled to be credited with 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title; or
(B) the second anniversary of the date on which the member would otherwise be discharged or transferred from an active status.

WeaponsTSGT
12-24-2013, 03:49 PM
I'll have to dig again. We just dug it up the other day for a fella that works with me who didn't believe me. I know it is definately in Title 10 of the USC. There is sanctuary specific to Guard/Reserve, and then there is another section that applies to Active Duty. The only reason there is a separate breakout for Guard/Reserve is to explicitly address the differences in how the accumulate Active Duty, but the law is there to keep someone who has accuulated 18 years of Active Duty time (either regular service, ANG, or Reserve) from being "layed off". This prevents CC's or the service from doing just what they would do if they could - take 19 years of service for someone and then show them the door just before retirement eligible. The service says you are never "vested"...we have a cliff based retirement system. But sanctuary protects you from being let go after serving so many years toward retirement.

The PSDMs reflect this law as well - they all say (for non-vol) that if you are over 18 and under 20 years of service, you will not be eligible for the programs (DOS Rollback, QOF reviews, RIF, etc...)

I was told that this only applied to guard/reserve. I'm an 18+ year MSgt that is currently being MEB'd, Reservists fall under sanctuary where as AD does not. Maybe it's different when it comes to medical but everyone I've spoke with has said otherwise.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-24-2013, 05:12 PM
I was told that this only applied to guard/reserve. I'm an 18+ year MSgt that is currently being MEB'd, Reservists fall under sanctuary where as AD does not. Maybe it's different when it comes to medical but everyone I've spoke with has said otherwise.

I always recommend going by what the AFIs, USC or other regs actually state, versus what's coming out of the rumor mill.

TSat75
12-24-2013, 06:52 PM
Right. Sanctuary applies to all Active Duty. The only reason it is broken out in Title 10 is because of how they calculate their AD time.

Sanctuary has nothing to do with MEB. You can be separated for cause. Either performance (ie PT), and that includes medical separation or retirement. Although, there are provisions with MEB where they have to med retire you, versus med separation with that many years in. Also includes anything that precludes abilities...like personality disorder. That's where the comment about other provisions of law comes in.

But, they cannot lay you off...admin separation or early retirement.

Given a choice between med retirement and retirement, you want the retirement. With full retirement, you could get concurrent receipt if you are 50% disabled or more (or become that year's later due to a service connected injury/condition). That's double the pay.

But if you med retire before 20, you only get your retirement (offset dollar for dollar for any VA disability you get).

So bottom line, if you can avoid or delay the MEB and get the code off, apply for TERA versus an MEB retirement. Unless you are sure your condition would return you to duty and found fit.

TSat75
12-24-2013, 06:55 PM
One more thing...TERA is considered full retirement with regard to benfits...so you still qualify for concurrent receipt (addressed on DFAS FAQ).