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denmom
12-11-2013, 02:08 PM
PCS'd a couple months ago and was just contacted by previous unit. I was told the wing has implemented a TIG requirement for MSMs and now they have to write a 'push letter' to go along with the medal. Needless to say I'm a bit upset about this new requirement. I saw people while I was there get MSMs presented within months of them having MSgt on and now I'm affected by this new TIG requirement.

I'm mostly venting with this post but I am curious as whether this is going on around the AF?

sandsjames
12-11-2013, 02:22 PM
PCS'd a couple months ago and was just contacted by previous unit. I was told the wing has implemented a TIG requirement for MSMs and now they have to write a 'push letter' to go along with the medal. Needless to say I'm a bit upset about this new requirement. I saw people while I was there get MSMs presented within months of them having MSgt on and now I'm affected by this new TIG requirement.

I'm mostly venting with this post but I am curious as whether this is going on around the AF?

Every base does stupid stuff like this. TIG shouldn't matter at all, especially since rank isn't supposed to matter. And the push letter is the dumbest thing they ever started doing. The write up for the dec/award should be all that's needed. If they want the push letter, then get rid of the dec and make the push letter the only thing that's needed. The stupidity continues to grow. Almost 4 months retired and loving it!

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 02:25 PM
Shit, be happy that enlisted folks in your service even get MSM's at all. Because it doesn't happen in the Navy and Marine Corps.

That aside, there's just something... "not right" when someone is worried about getting a medal, particularly when they feel that they "should" get one.

However... even if there was nothing strange about that, still... I'd be happy that it's a de jure rule being put on paper, and not a de facto that they refuse to articulate to all hands - because THAT would piss me off to no end.

denmom
12-11-2013, 02:28 PM
Shit, be happy that enlisted folks in your service even get MSM's at all. Because it doesn't happen in the Navy and Marine Corps.

That aside, there's just something... "not right" when someone is worried about getting a medal, particularly when they feel that they "should" get one.

However... even if there was nothing strange about that, still... I'd be happy that it's a de jure rule being put on paper, and not a de facto that they refuse to articulate to all hands - because THAT would piss me off to no end.

Understand my post comes off bad and/or weird but in the AF if you don't have a medal when you PCS it will affect the board score for SMSgt and CMSgt. It's just the way it is in the AF.

Giant Voice
12-11-2013, 02:57 PM
Yeah, its wierd how we(AF) work. I remember one year my epr closed out 10 days after I put on MSgt and they kicked my 910 back the day before we were getting ready to sign it and and said "he's a MSgt now" so he needs a 911.

That TIG crap is BS for dec's. Sorry dude. Hope it ends up working out for you.

We're in the middle of sending my MSM up now so it will help my board score for next year.

71Fish
12-11-2013, 03:00 PM
Understand my post comes off bad and/or weird but in the AF if you don't have a medal when you PCS it will affect the board score for SMSgt and CMSgt. It's just the way it is in the AF.

Most of the unwritten rules are just asinine. When I was leaving base X in Korea, the Chief didn't want my MSM to go forward because of an EPR mark down at another base. I'm glad my supervisor stood up for me.

imported_DannyJ
12-11-2013, 03:17 PM
Every base does stupid stuff like this. TIG shouldn't matter at all, especially since rank isn't supposed to matter. And the push letter is the dumbest thing they ever started doing. The write up for the dec/award should be all that's needed. If they want the push letter, then get rid of the dec and make the push letter the only thing that's needed. The stupidity continues to grow. Almost 4 months retired and loving it!

This x1000. Read the DoD guidance below:

"The Meritorious Service Medal may be awarded to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States who distinguishes themselves by either outstanding achievement or meritorious service to the United States"

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 03:23 PM
This x1000. Read the DoD guidance below:

"The Meritorious Service Medal may be awarded to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States who distinguishes themselves by either outstanding achievement or meritorious service to the United States"

And that's where de facto rules come into play...

SomeRandomGuy
12-11-2013, 03:38 PM
Yeah, its wierd how we(AF) work. I remember one year my epr closed out 10 days after I put on MSgt and they kicked my 910 back the day before we were getting ready to sign it and and said "he's a MSgt now" so he needs a 911.

That TIG crap is BS for dec's. Sorry dude. Hope it ends up working out for you.

We're in the middle of sending my MSM up now so it will help my board score for next year.

I mentioned this once before but I actually wrote an EPR for someone who outranked me. I was a SSgt supervising a SrA. I lost a stripe but remainined his supervisor until the end of the reporting period. I wrote his EPR as a SrA even though he was a SrA with more TIG than me. I also saw a Lt. Col who was technically the rater for a Colonel. At that base the Comptroller was considered the commander for all wing staff agencies. One of the wing staff agencies was JAG and they had a Colonel. The Comptroller was a Lt. Col but in charge of WSA so he signed the Col's OPR.

jshiver15
12-11-2013, 03:42 PM
Shit, be happy that enlisted folks in your service even get MSM's at all. Because it doesn't happen in the Navy and Marine Corps.

That aside, there's just something... "not right" when someone is worried about getting a medal, particularly when they feel that they "should" get one.

However... even if there was nothing strange about that, still... I'd be happy that it's a de jure rule being put on paper, and not a de facto that they refuse to articulate to all hands - because THAT would piss me off to no end.

Do you mean it's "not right" as an institutional standard that medals affect SNCO promotion or is it "not right" for someone to want/think the deserve a medal?

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 03:44 PM
Do you mean it's "not right" as an institutional standard that medals affect SNCO promotion or is it "not right" for someone to want/think the deserve a medal?

Although I do believe BOTH, I was referring to the latter.

jshiver15
12-11-2013, 03:45 PM
Although I do believe BOTH, I was referring to the latter.

Why is it not right for someone to think they deserve a medal? I'm not instigating an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to why you believe that?

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 03:48 PM
Why is it not right for someone to think they deserve a medal? I'm not instigating an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to why you believe that?

If you had an angry Airman working for you, who came out and said "I deserve a medal"... would you not find something wrong with that?

jshiver15
12-11-2013, 03:50 PM
If you had an angry Airman working for you, who came out and said "I deserve a medal"... would you not find something wrong with that?

If I had an Airman working for me who DESERVED a medal then I would work towards getting him/her one. If he/she doesn't deserve it and he/she is angry that he/she hasn't received one, then I'll explain why they haven't been presented one. That doesn't necessarily negate the fact that there are Airmen out there who are deserving AND angry. Some supervisors are shit.

denmom
12-11-2013, 03:58 PM
Not sure if I gave off the impression that I stated I deserved/demanded a medal. I just came here to vent about this new unwritten rule that's affecting my career and yes I do care about my career.

retiredAFcivvy
12-11-2013, 04:03 PM
Understand my post comes off bad and/or weird but in the AF if you don't have a medal when you PCS it will affect the board score for SMSgt and CMSgt. It's just the way it is in the AF.

I think it is evident by the majority of responses on this thread your post was neither bad or wierd. Hope everything goes well on your MSM.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 04:19 PM
If I had an Airman working for me who DESERVED a medal then I would work towards getting him/her one. If he/she doesn't deserve it and he/she is angry that he/she hasn't received one, then I'll explain why they haven't been presented one. That doesn't necessarily negate the fact that there are Airmen out there who are deserving AND angry. Some supervisors are shit.

But whether or not they deserve a medal, isn't that something that you should determine based on your observations... and not what they walk up to you and tell you?

One thing I love about being a civilian now, is that as a civilian... you have nothing else to focus on, BUT the job. No chest candy, no status insignia on your sleeve or shoulders... none of that. Too many people treat medals, ribbons, and badges like baseball cards. There's that obsession to "collect." You know, how a friends looks at your baseball card collection and says "I've Got him. Got him. Need him. Got him. Need him. Need him."

jshiver15
12-11-2013, 04:23 PM
But whether or not they deserve a medal, isn't that something that you should determine based on your observations... and not what they walk up to you and tell you?

One thing I love about being a civilian now, is that as a civilian... you have nothing else to focus on, BUT the job. No chest candy, no status insignia on your sleeve or shoulders... none of that. Too many people treat medals, ribbons, and badges like baseball cards. There's that obsession to "collect." You know, how a friends looks at your baseball card collection and says "I've Got him. Got him. Need him. Got him. Need him. Need him."

I disagree. When those medals counts towards promotion and attribute to achieved career aspirations, then I see no fault in an Airman inquiring about it. Personally, I've done it. And each time I've done it, the assumption was the someone else put me in or the award for whatever action it was. Granted, everytime it was from doing an Army supported exercise/mission and no one knew how to treat it.

imported_DannyJ
12-11-2013, 04:29 PM
Not sure if I gave off the impression that I stated I deserved/demanded a medal. I just came here to vent about this new unwritten rule that's affecting my career and yes I do care about my career.

Challange the decision. May end up with no medal, but if you're really that salty about it...

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 04:31 PM
I disagree. When those medals counts towards promotion and attribute to achieved career aspirations, then I see no fault in an Airman inquiring about it. Personally, I've done it. And each time I've done it, the assumption was the someone else put me in or the award for whatever action it was. Granted, everytime it was from doing an Army supported exercise/mission and no one knew how to treat it.

And some people are prima donnas who always need an "atta boy" whenever they go x amount of time without screwing up.

Have I been upset at small ceremonies where achievement and commendation medals were awarded and I wasn't among them? I'd be lying if I said no. But never once have I ever put myself in for an award or ask anyone in my chain of command to do it, or told them that I think they should. If I have to do that to get a medal, then - to me - that award wouldn't be worth the paper that the citation is printed on.

sandsjames
12-11-2013, 04:41 PM
But whether or not they deserve a medal, isn't that something that you should determine based on your observations... and not what they walk up to you and tell you?

One thing I love about being a civilian now, is that as a civilian... you have nothing else to focus on, BUT the job. No chest candy, no status insignia on your sleeve or shoulders... none of that. Too many people treat medals, ribbons, and badges like baseball cards. There's that obsession to "collect." You know, how a friends looks at your baseball card collection and says "I've Got him. Got him. Need him. Got him. Need him. Need him."

Unfortunately, that's what it's become and, by doing so, the Air Force has made it detrimental to your career if you don't receive one. Instead of treating them as they should have to begin with, they made them part of promotion. Hell, if you're up for E8 and receive a Commendation Medal (which is supposed to be a good thing) it's a career killer. I know exactly what you mean about people thinking they "deserve" one, but the Air Force has done that to itself by tying medals to things like PCSing.

denmom
12-11-2013, 04:48 PM
And some people are prima donnas who always need an "atta boy" whenever they go x amount of time without screwing up.

Have I been upset at small ceremonies where achievement and commendation medals were awarded and I wasn't among them? I'd be lying if I said no. But never once have I ever put myself in for an award or ask anyone in my chain of command to do it, or told them that I think they should. If I have to do that to get a medal, then - to me - that award wouldn't be worth the paper that the citation is printed on.

I am pretty sure I'm taking this too personally but from your posts on this thread I have to clarify somethings. It seems you think I requested the decor-6 myself, wrote the dec and turned it to my squadron. So to clear that up I didn't do any of those things, my squadron/supervisor/superintendent to the time to request the decor-6, wrote the decoration and have submitted it for me.

Like I said I was just curious as to whether this was going on at other AFBs that's all.

As for challenging it, not worth it at all. I've been gone for a couple month and even if I were there I wouldn't. If I were there I would have asked them to postpone it if the pushletter didn't work but that's about it. My previous superintendent was just giving me a heads up as to the status of the decoration that's all.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 04:50 PM
I am pretty sure I'm taking this too personally but from your posts on this thread I have to clarify somethings. It seems you think I requested the decor-6 myself, wrote the dec and turned it to my squadron. So to clear that up I didn't do any of those things, my squadron/supervisor/superintendent to the time to request the decor-6, wrote the decoration and have submitted it for me.

Like I said I was just curious as to whether this was going on at other AFBs that's all.

As for challenging it, not worth it at all. I've been gone for a couple month and even if I were there I wouldn't. If I were there I would have asked them to postpone it if the pushletter didn't work but that's about it. My previous superintendent was just giving me a heads up as to the status of the decoration that's all.

No worries. At this point, I'm speaking more of "in general" with jshiver.

Chief Bosun
12-11-2013, 05:02 PM
I will admit to ignorance on how the AF works in these matters.

For my branch:

1. You had to do something to receive a personal award that was above and beyond what a person in your paygrade and occupation was expected to do. Personal awards were Navy (or the other service equivilant) Achievement Medals and higher. I myself went 20 years before getting my first Achievement Medal, and that was only after they lowered the level that could approve the award.

2. For advancement to E-7 and up, the only awards anyone looked at were the personal awards - the Good Conduct, GWOT, and so forth meant nothing.

3. Far more important than the award itself was (in order of priority) what the write-up on your evaluation said about you that was telling the board why you should be picked up vice someone else, and the write-up for the award that told why you received it.

The one personal award that (as far as I'm concerned) really meant anything was my Joint Service Achievement Medal. That one was signed by Secretary Rumsfeld personally (it was awarded after he stopped using the autopen for signing correspondence). That took some selling to get to his level.

AJBIGJ
12-11-2013, 05:02 PM
I am pretty sure I'm taking this too personally but from your posts on this thread I have to clarify somethings. It seems you think I requested the decor-6 myself, wrote the dec and turned it to my squadron. So to clear that up I didn't do any of those things, my squadron/supervisor/superintendent to the time to request the decor-6, wrote the decoration and have submitted it for me.

Like I said I was just curious as to whether this was going on at other AFBs that's all.

As for challenging it, not worth it at all. I've been gone for a couple month and even if I were there I wouldn't. If I were there I would have asked them to postpone it if the pushletter didn't work but that's about it. My previous superintendent was just giving me a heads up as to the status of the decoration that's all.

There are cultural/institutional factors going into this as well, it is definitely a problem institutionally, in my honest and somewhat detached opinion (not being in the USAF) that a promotional system does make receipt of a medal a "check in the block" towards a promotion. Rusty and I don't have the benefit of being a direct part of that culture, so our opinions in effect tend to be more generalized disgruntlement and how such a thing cheapens the whole concept (and the USN is only marginally different in such regards, I'd even hesitate to say "better" or "worse".)

CYBERFX1024
12-11-2013, 05:04 PM
Why is it not right for someone to think they deserve a medal? I'm not instigating an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to why you believe that?

Because in other services the person that they went up to argue about their medal would tell them to get the f*ck out of his office. It just doesn't happen like that for the enlisted in the Marine Corps. The only time that I have ever seen a MSM awarded is to Officers. I have thought that I deserved a Commendation or Achievement Medal a couple of times, even got put up for it by my NCO. But nothing ever came from it after that NCO pissed hot. So I am not pissed about getting it, just alittle perturbed.

71Fish
12-11-2013, 05:23 PM
Since this is the Air Force section, talking about an Air Force MSM, who the hell cares how other services do it?

Sergeant eNYgma
12-11-2013, 05:35 PM
Just talked to my chain about a medal myself...hey it affects promotion and obviously you need to be competitive...

imported_DannyJ
12-11-2013, 06:22 PM
Just talked to my chain about a medal myself...hey it affects promotion and obviously you need to be competitive...

Don't take this as a jab, because it's not, but you just put SSgt on, right? Medals (though worth WAPS points) don't really affect promotion until you start testing for SMSgt. I've seen quite a few CMSgts with less decs than I have (in number, not pts) as a TSgt. People worry FAR too much about medals/awards.

Sergeant eNYgma
12-11-2013, 06:26 PM
Don't take this as a jab, because it's not, but you just put SSgt on, right? Medals (though worth WAPS points) don't really affect promotion until you start testing for SMSgt. I've seen quite a few CMSgts with less decs than I have (in number, not pts) as a TSgt. People worry FAR too much about medals/awards.

No offense taken at all and yeah sewed it on 1 Jan this year. I've never cared much for medals and I hate ribbons even more (Which is why I never wear them unless I MUST like PME). I've know plenty guys who like to compare all that crap ribbons, medals etc I've never been included in that conversation...just not me. But of course I still want to be as competitve as the next guy when it comes down to it (Whatever competetive means for the specific rank anyway).

360BHR
12-11-2013, 07:58 PM
CCAF is also an unwritten requirement for an MSM in some commands. No CCAF, no MSM even if it's for a retirement dec. Won't even get downgraded to an AFCM. So much for being recognized for 20+ years of service.

LogDog
12-11-2013, 08:04 PM
PCS'd a couple months ago and was just contacted by previous unit. I was told the wing has implemented a TIG requirement for MSMs and now they have to write a 'push letter' to go along with the medal. Needless to say I'm a bit upset about this new requirement. I saw people while I was there get MSMs presented within months of them having MSgt on and now I'm affected by this new TIG requirement.

I'm mostly venting with this post but I am curious as whether this is going on around the AF?
Stuff like this has been going on for years. There have been "unwritten" rules about who qualifies for specific medals based upon rank, TIG, etc. and for the most part they are bureaucratic BS designed to discourage decoration submissions. What commanders who implement policies like this are doing is really refusing to recognize the contributions of their people.

What I learned years ago was it wasn't just the decoration or the person it was for that mattered, it was how hard your commander pushed for it. In the mid-90s, while at RAF Lakenheath, we had a Sra who was PCSing and we put him in for a Commendation Medal. The wing's policy was SrA and below could only rate an Achievement Medal. The Command CMSgt sent it back citing this policy. We spoke with our Group commander and he personally took it to the Wing Commander who approved it on the spot. The Wing Commander said, as it was related to us by our Group Commander, if his Group Commander felt the SrA deserved it that was good enough for him.

Contact your old shop and see if the commander will push the medal for you.

DWWSWWD
12-11-2013, 11:58 PM
This stuff makes me crazy. There is only one requirement for a medal, given that the period of service was honorable. The actions and impact must be commensurate with the level of the award. That is it. There is no TIG requirement or grade requirement for that matter. The problem with a young MSgt not getting a PCS medal is that if your supervisor is a douche and you sit at your next base for 6 years, you'll be well into the zone for Senior but will have no MSM. See the process through, help articulate your scope of responsibility if that is the issue. If not, make sure your boss pushes for a mid-tour at 3 yrs TOS. Marines, Navy, save your breath. This is how it's done in the Air Force, which is where you are right now. Oorah, Anchors Away or whatever the hell.

BUDJR8
12-12-2013, 03:18 AM
Yeah, its wierd how we(AF) work. I remember one year my epr closed out 10 days after I put on MSgt and they kicked my 910 back the day before we were getting ready to sign it and and said "he's a MSgt now" so he needs a 911.

That TIG crap is BS for dec's. Sorry dude. Hope it ends up working out for you.

We're in the middle of sending my MSM up now so it will help my board score for next year.

Seems silly and quite stupid for the whole chain to even let this happen. That's what we have promotion rosters for. As soon as they saw you'd be a MSgt AFTER closeout a 911 should have been worked in the first place. What was the reasoning and thinking behind this debacle?

CYBERFX1024
12-12-2013, 03:38 AM
Since this is the Air Force section, talking about an Air Force MSM, who the hell cares how other services do it?

I can comment wherever I feel like.

fufu
12-12-2013, 04:25 AM
Don't take this as a jab, because it's not, but you just put SSgt on, right? Medals (though worth WAPS points) don't really affect promotion until you start testing for SMSgt. I've seen quite a few CMSgts with less decs than I have (in number, not pts) as a TSgt. People worry FAR too much about medals/awards.

SSgt and TSgt should worry about decorations. You don't make Chief as a Senior. You make Chief as a SSgt/Tech/MSgt... You need all those "things" like awards, decorations and what not to be competitive for the top two ranks.

If you don't have those things, you'll spend 8-10 yrs as a MSgt trying to make them up.

I went 10 yrs between decorations. I'm currently at 8.5 yrs on station with only one dec and I've never gotten a deployment decoration. So, when someone says they don't matter....try making up 18 points for decorations, plus TIS/TIG points when you're testing for E8 the first couple of times. Not gonna happen.

Hoo-huh???
12-12-2013, 06:53 AM
PCS'd a couple months ago and was just contacted by previous unit. I was told the wing has implemented a TIG requirement for MSMs and now they have to write a 'push letter' to go along with the medal. Needless to say I'm a bit upset about this new requirement. I saw people while I was there get MSMs presented within months of them having MSgt on and now I'm affected by this new TIG requirement.

I'm mostly venting with this post but I am curious as whether this is going on around the AF?

I had a similar situation at at previous base. I made MSgt early & had to wait a year to sew it on. As soon as I received a line number they put me in a MSgt position to run a section. I got orders & was due to PCS about 6 months after I sewed on MSgt. My supervisor wrote me an MSM and it was kicked back by the Group Chief that said I did not have enough TIG for an MSM. My supervisor then told me that they will have to make it a commendation medal. After thinking about it for a short time I went to him and said that having a TIG requirement sends the wrong message. What I meant by this is that I did my part by studying & knowing the PDG and I was put in a MSgt position (performed as a MSgt in this position and my previous position as a TSgt) and now on person thinks that it's all about TIG is just wrong. He then went to our Chief & both of them went to the Group Chief with what I said. After this I got my MSM. In my opinion I believe they should get rid of decoration points if they're going to remove TIG/TIS points from WAPS testing. As for being eligible for decoration; if a person in finance can receive a BSM then the rank BS for other medals should be stopped by an instruction in writing. Just my two cents...

BUDJR8
12-12-2013, 07:37 AM
[QUOTE=Hoo-huh???;663882]...if a person in finance can receive a BSM...QUOTE]

Now THAT really depends...in SOME cases there may be AF personnel serving in JET tasking in which the Army doesn't/won't issue an MSM...so that's why you see a lot of folks and/or positions that normally wouldn't get BSM get one. Not much can be done about it, folks can't help what rules they fall under while deployed. Just wanted to throw out the "other side" of the story.

technomage1
12-12-2013, 08:51 AM
Crazy requirements for medals do exist. I didn't get one since I only had two years on station once.

71Fish
12-12-2013, 12:33 PM
I can comment wherever I feel like.

I didn't say that you couldn't, but this is the Air Force section. Now put your big girl panties back on.

Giant Voice
12-12-2013, 12:53 PM
What was the reasoning and thinking behind this debacle?

Reasoning(We'll the rip said TSgt), and nobody thinks anymore. We're all just robots!

SgtS
12-12-2013, 03:46 PM
Just a little food for thought:

AFI 36-2803 Governs awards and decorations. Compliance is, of course, mandatory.

"2.2.6. No individual is automatically entitled to an award upon completion of an operational TDY or
departure for an assignment. Do not establish preconditions for an award. Do not use military decorations
for incentives or as prizes in contests."

Emphasis mine.

imported_DannyJ
12-12-2013, 04:15 PM
SSgt and TSgt should worry about decorations. You don't make Chief as a Senior. You make Chief as a SSgt/Tech/MSgt... You need all those "things" like awards, decorations and what not to be competitive for the top two ranks.

If you don't have those things, you'll spend 8-10 yrs as a MSgt trying to make them up.

I went 10 yrs between decorations. I'm currently at 8.5 yrs on station with only one dec and I've never gotten a deployment decoration. So, when someone says they don't matter....try making up 18 points for decorations, plus TIS/TIG points when you're testing for E8 the first couple of times. Not gonna happen.

Again...no dig intended, but your situation should have gone down different and there likely were some things you could have done during that period to change them. Yes there are going to be instances where supervisors aren't doing their jobs, but as you describe it, some of that blame should probably be laid at your feet.

10 years between decs is an awfully long time, as is 8.5 years TOS (did you try to PCS?).

Were you doing the work to deserve decorations?
Did you have issues that would prevent you from being put in (referal EPRs, PT failures, etc?)
Did you ask about what you needed to do to get recognized?
Did you ask about being put in?
Did you provide your supervision with the tools to make the decision easier?

I'm not saying I know your situation, AFSC, etc., but it sure seems funny looking at your description (without further knowledge) and not asking if there was things that you could have done to improve the situation, but take all I say with a grain of salt. I'm just a 6 year TIS TSgt. In the end, a lot of AF careers are in the person in question's hands. Not that there aren't exceptions...

We may not like the rules (I, for one, hate most of them), but it's our choice whether to play or not. Just my 2 cents.

Golther
12-12-2013, 05:57 PM
Just a little food for thought:

AFI 36-2803 Governs awards and decorations. Compliance is, of course, mandatory.

"2.2.6. No individual is automatically entitled to an award upon completion of an operational TDY or
departure for an assignment. Do not establish preconditions for an award. Do not use military decorations
for incentives or as prizes in contests."

Emphasis mine.

You should know by now that AFI's only carry weight when followed and enforced by the chain of command and it is convenient for them; for example AFI 36-2502.

SgtS
12-12-2013, 06:48 PM
You should know by now that AFI's only carry weight when followed and enforced by the chain of command and it is convenient for them; for example AFI 36-2502.

Oh of course, however, it depends on how much energy you have to want to fight the fight. When you're right, you're right. Especially when the AFI specifically forbids arbitrary preconditions for awards.

Chief_KO
12-12-2013, 10:16 PM
The approval authority sits on their throne as the wing exec (not a real billet) and the command chief or group exec (not a real billet) and the group superintendent parade the poor unwashed masses' records by so that the almighty ruler can give a thumbs up or thumbs down. The authority dictates what each must have in their record to warrant the authority's time...CCAF, PME, minimal PT score, firewall EPRs, off duty education, etc. If said record is weak, the authority will say "dance for me" "entertain me" "make me laugh" to wit the exec and chief send back to the unit the request for a push note along with the stern warning "You have but so many silver bullets naive...is this the one you wish to use?"

Oh, and pet peeve of mine...there is no such thing as an AF MSM...there is but one MSM for all branches of the military. When you find yourself in the position to fight for your Airmen (or for yourself) do not let the "limited silver bullet" warning stop you. It is used to scare away the weak, timid, ineffective leader (and it works 82.37% of the time).

BRUWIN
12-12-2013, 10:32 PM
I mentioned this once before but I actually wrote an EPR for someone who outranked me.

Did the same when I had a line number for TSgt and was writing on a SSgt that outranked me. Nobody picked up on it so I just wrote it. Me and him were good so there was not a problem with his epr.

fufu
12-13-2013, 12:53 AM
Again...no dig intended, but your situation should have gone down different and there likely were some things you could have done during that period to change them. Yes there are going to be instances where supervisors aren't doing their jobs, but as you describe it, some of that blame should probably be laid at your feet.
- Probably so.

10 years between decs is an awfully long time, as is 8.5 years TOS (did you try to PCS?).

- Handful of times, everything short of Korea..hell I even tried that once for about a year. PCA'd twice...

Were you doing the work to deserve decorations?
Did you have issues that would prevent you from being put in (referal EPRs, PT failures, etc?)
- No
Did you ask about what you needed to do to get recognized?
- In the beginning.
Did you ask about being put in?
- In the beginning
Did you provide your supervision with the tools to make the decision easier?
- What like my EPR? Cause that's what decs r written from...
.

I've been a victim of these so called "rules" so many times:
- My last PCS was denied a dec b/c I went firewall 5, firewall 5, one markdown 5(in the communication block).
- PCA'd with about 2 yrs TOS - denied dec because I hadn't been on station long enough
- PCA dec in 10
- PCA'd again in 12 - again no dec because it was too soon after my last dec, which was PCA, so I could have received a Ext Tr Dec.....

As for deployments, the few times I asked I was told, "You're just doing your job". Ya....like everyone else. I was on two deployments where my shop and I worked more days than any other shop...just doing our jobs. I've been an AMC superior performer during inspections, couple of "Team" awards....no personal awards tho.

jshiver15
12-13-2013, 06:53 AM
Because in other services the person that they went up to argue about their medal would tell them to get the f*ck out of his office. It just doesn't happen like that for the enlisted in the Marine Corps. The only time that I have ever seen a MSM awarded is to Officers. I have thought that I deserved a Commendation or Achievement Medal a couple of times, even got put up for it by my NCO. But nothing ever came from it after that NCO pissed hot. So I am not pissed about getting it, just alittle perturbed.

In other services you get more than one chance a year to promote, too.

jshiver15
12-13-2013, 07:01 AM
Don't take this as a jab, because it's not, but you just put SSgt on, right? Medals (though worth WAPS points) don't really affect promotion until you start testing for SMSgt. I've seen quite a few CMSgts with less decs than I have (in number, not pts) as a TSgt. People worry FAR too much about medals/awards.

I disagree to an extent. Depending on your deployment tempo, SSgt and TSgt testers can be at a pretty good advantage when it comes to points for decs. I will be testing first time for TSgt this coming year with 6 points towards WAPS (which I will admit is a lot more than many other AFSCs I've seen out there). Someone I work with will be testing for the first time next year and she already has 13 points towards WAPS (and will be getting an AFCOM once she PCSs next month). Granted, those points can be made up for by studying, but as far as decs go there's no telling who is "more deserving". Regardless of that, I think the Air Force has created a monster where decs are concerned. But I also think it's created a stigma when it comes to Airmen looking out for themselves, which there's really nothing wrong with. If an Airman feels as though they deserve a medal when they really don't, then it is up to their supervisor to disprove their notions that they're shit hot.

CYBERFX1024
12-13-2013, 06:46 PM
In other services you get more than one chance a year to promote, too.

Maybe in the ARMY yes, but not the Marine Corps unless you are down on your knees.

CYBERFX1024
12-13-2013, 08:09 PM
In other services you get more than one chance a year to promote, too.

Maybe in the ARMY yes, but not the Marine Corps unless you are down on your knees.

John Jameson
12-14-2013, 02:29 AM
The approval authority sits on their throne as the wing exec (not a real billet) and the command chief or group exec (not a real billet) and the group superintendent parade the poor unwashed masses' records by so that the almighty ruler can give a thumbs up or thumbs down. The authority dictates what each must have in their record to warrant the authority's time...CCAF, PME, minimal PT score, firewall EPRs, off duty education, etc. If said record is weak, the authority will say "dance for me" "entertain me" "make me laugh" to wit the exec and chief send back to the unit the request for a push note along with the stern warning "You have but so many silver bullets naive...is this the one you wish to use?"


Well done KO. Made me laugh out loud. What the hell was that movie? Gladiator or something?

LogDog
12-14-2013, 06:03 AM
Well done KO. Made me laugh out loud. What the hell was that movie? Gladiator or something?
I believe that movie was Caligula.