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imported_WILDJOKER5
12-05-2013, 08:08 PM
So, is LINK REMOVED just another blanket policy from the feds or is there any merit to teaching the same way to every kid of every different culture, learning ability, race, ethnicity and backround? If seeing "no child left behind" as a failure wasnt enough to convince those in DC that fed blanket programs dont work, now we have common core which doesnt even care if you get the math problem right, as long and you know how to BS your teacher and tell them how you arrived at the wrong number. :doh

garhkal
12-05-2013, 08:27 PM
I actually do feel there should be a common set of tests / standards for a group of common core subjects for each grade.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-06-2013, 04:08 AM
I see CC as more unnecessary centralized gov control, much of which should be left to the states to control. Since the beginning of the Dept of Ed, millions have been spent with little, if any improvement in education.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-06-2013, 01:10 PM
I actually do feel there should be a common set of tests / standards for a group of common core subjects for each grade.

But when you tie them to money and handouts, you will always see teachers teaching towards tests.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-06-2013, 01:11 PM
I see CC as more unnecessary centralized gov control, much of which should be left to the states to control. Since the beginning of the Dept of Ed, millions have been spent with little, if any improvement in education.

NYC is the prime example that more money from federal or state governemnt doesnt equal more education. More money from the parents however, that means they play a role in their kids education and want to see a worthy return for their investment.

efmbman
12-06-2013, 01:15 PM
But when you tie them to money and handouts, you will always see teachers teaching towards tests.

Good point. For years, the Army brass always told commanders that the unit PT program should not be tailored to achieve the best scores on the PT tests. However, when it comes promotion time to officers, one of the discriminators is "how did his/her unit do with PT?" If "X" must be achieved to attain "Y", then the path to "Y" is evident despite the intentions of the program.

AJBIGJ
12-06-2013, 01:28 PM
The very worst problem with the effects (I would say unintended consequences) of the Common Core system is it heavily discourages (not necessarily eliminates) teachers being innovative in the method of their teachings. They have to satisfy a metric, first of all, which is very arbitrarily defined, and they also do not want to lose their jobs because their methods are non-compliant in some particular fashion.

Given the choice, I would skip the states entirely for the most part and delegate 95% of the authority and responsibility back to the localities, they have the highest level of a vested interest in the students. Let states deal with the straggler 10% schools that really do not perform well. They can voucher the system or whatever they think is best but if you give the school and school board autonomy towards making their students able to be ready for the world, they typically will do everything in their power to make it so. It is their own children in these schools after all.

The common core system can be salvaged in my opinion, but as recommendations for young students to be successful at a given level in their education. I would also outsource that responsibility away from the Federal government over to private think tanks who are more likely teachers themselves, not lawyers, and more in touch with what level of education it takes to get into which types of universities and so forth. I would discourage subsidizing these entities directly in a fashion that eliminates competition.

Giant Voice
12-06-2013, 01:37 PM
I hate CC. Now instead of my kids learning at school and then me helping them; I have to teach them what the school didn't. IMO its all about the test scores.

garhkal
12-06-2013, 08:07 PM
But when you tie them to money and handouts, you will always see teachers teaching towards tests.

True.. Just like making salories linked to grades, gets them to push (and if necessary cheat) to get grades up..

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-07-2013, 09:50 PM
True.. Just like making salories linked to grades, gets them to push (and if necessary cheat) to get grades up..

Funny you mention cheat. I remember the highest paying city per child for school in GA seems to do a lot of that. But what can you expect from a city that is the blue part of the state?

Rizzo77
12-07-2013, 11:20 PM
Even as my son was being indoctrinated in public schools, I addressed reality and truth with him at home; he is a superior adult for his ability to actually think.

The problem is that there are too few parents today that actually participate in their childrens education.

AJBIGJ
12-08-2013, 12:14 AM
Even as my son was being indoctrinated in public schools, I addressed reality and truth with him at home; he is a superior adult for his ability to actually think.

The problem is that there are too few parents today that actually participate in their childrens education.

I have to wonder if having the baseline household frequently requiring both parents to work plays a substantial role in that?

garhkal
12-08-2013, 09:37 PM
True that.. Many house holds these days do seem to lack the normal familial structure and cause of that, lack the drive/capacity/willingness to get involved in their children's lives.

socal1200r
12-10-2013, 10:25 PM
I'm just glad both my daughters went to parochial schools, one all the way thru high school, and the other thru 8th grade. The public education system, for the most part, is a joke. Way too many administrators, not enough teachers, too many chiefs and not enough Indians (uh oh, is that a politically incorrect thing to say, lol). If I was king for a day, I'd outlaw homework, so kids can enjoy extracurricular activities like sports, music, crafts, volunteering, etc. At least in the classroom, they have equal access to the resources they need, which isn't true once they leave the school grounds. But hey, what do I know, I don't have a degree in education...just a lot of common sense!

Rusty Jones
12-10-2013, 10:46 PM
I'm just glad both my daughters went to parochial schools, one all the way thru high school, and the other thru 8th grade. The public education system, for the most part, is a joke.

Oh, a joke you say?

http://i.imgur.com/4hfC6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TYpLJpOh.jpg

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 12:10 AM
Oh, a joke you say?

http://i.imgur.com/4hfC6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TYpLJpOh.jpg
And this stops someone from being a productive member of society? Guess we squeaked up in the world and being the biggest innovator of the world ahead of strict, government controlled atheism like China. But hey, at least they can just spy on us and let us do all the R&D.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 12:16 AM
And this stops someone from being a productive member of society? Guess we squeaked up in the world and being the biggest innovator of the world ahead of strict, government controlled atheism like China. But hey, at least they can just spy on us and let us do all the R&D.

But you condone controlled ignorance.

SomeAFdude
12-11-2013, 12:36 AM
[QUOTE=Rusty Jones;663662]Oh, a joke you say?

You gotta give me a link to this material RJ. I need a good chuckle this evening!!! PLEASE!!!!!

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 12:39 AM
[QUOTE=Rusty Jones;663662]Oh, a joke you say?

You gotta give me a link to this material RJ. I need a good chuckle this evening!!! PLEASE!!!!!

Go to Google images, and search Christian school science textbooks and tests.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 12:46 AM
But you condone controlled ignorance.
Again, does this stop someone from being a productive member of society if they believe in creationism or evolution? I guess it would if the person that believed in creationism becomes an archeologist, but does it matter if they were a politician?
Seriously, liberals hate the past, that why they rewrite it so much. So what does not believing in evolution do to harm someone?
Liberals believe MLK, and Lincoln were democrats. http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/19/update-lincoln-a-democrat-university-says-yep-thats-right/
Liberals actually believe that it is because of Dems that the civil rights act was passed. http://themoderatevoice.com/53521/republican-house-member-misrepresents-history-on-civil-rights-legislation/
Liberals believe that taking money from someone is not stealing.
Liberals believe that a growing human inside of a woman's womb is not a baby.
Liberals believe that one size fits all education system is better, even though time and time again it has been shown and proven to fail. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/a-decade-of-no-child-left-behind-lessons-from-a-policy-failure/2012/01/05/gIQAeb19gP_blog.html
Liberals believe that more choice in health care means the price is going to go up.
Liberals believe that because of our income difference being so vast, that our middle and lower class earners are worse off in the US than around the world.
Liberals believe that giving everyone healthcare while restricting the costs to doctors who have massive college debt thanks to government back loans raising tuition rates that there won't be a shortage of doctors and lowering of care provided.
But hey, if believing in creationism is what is going to harm our kids, better stop doing it because big country DC said so.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 12:53 AM
Again, does this stop someone from being a productive member of society if they believe in creationism or evolution? I guess it would if the person that believed in creationism becomes an archeologist, but does it matter if they were a politician?
Seriously, liberals hate the past, that why they rewrite it so much. So what does not believing in evolution do to harm someone?
Liberals believe MLK, and Lincoln were democrats. http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/19/update-lincoln-a-democrat-university-says-yep-thats-right/
Liberals actually believe that it is because of Dems that the civil rights act was past.
Liberals believe that taking money from someone is not stealing.
Liberals believe that a growing human inside of a woman's womb is not a baby.
Liberals believe that one size fits all education system is better, even though time and time again it has been shown and proven to fail.
Liberals believe that more choice in health care means the price is going to go up.
Liberals believe that because of our income difference being so vast, that our middle and lower class earners are worse off in the US than around the world.
Liberals believe that giving everyone healthcare while restricting the costs to doctors who have massive college debt thanks to government back loans raising tuition rates that there won't be a shortage of doctors and lowering of care provided.
But hey, if believing in creationism is what is going to harm our kids, better stop doing it because big country DC said so.

What the FUCK does any of that have to do with the discussion at hand? Don't answer that.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 12:58 AM
What the FUCK does any of that have to do with the discussion at hand? Don't answer that.

Well, you wanted to bash Christians for their test about dinos, lets look at the truth about what liberals love to believe in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fw9ZukRy8A&feature=share&list=UUWq53_f3zgMcWuE-XFKSpyQ&index=2

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 01:00 AM
Then in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw1PQuZt4eQ&feature=share&list=UUWq53_f3zgMcWuE-XFKSpyQ&index=1

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 01:09 AM
Since you brought up Christianity first...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTerQAu64Qg&feature=share&list=UUWq53_f3zgMcWuE-XFKSpyQ&index=9

retiredAFcivvy
12-11-2013, 05:39 AM
[QUOTE=SomeAFdude;663675]

Go to Google images, and search Christian school science textbooks and tests.
I have some questions.
1. What effect does it have on you and why should you care if someone prefers to have their child attend a Parochial school or other private Christian school?
2. What effect does it have on you and why should you care if someone prefers their child to be taught creationism?
3. What percent of your tax dollars goes to fund Parochial or other Christian schools?
4. Are those that send their children to the private schools exempt from paying taxes to support public education?

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 11:40 AM
[QUOTE=Rusty Jones;663677]
I have some questions.
1. What effect does it have on you and why should you care if someone prefers to have their child attend a Parochial school or other private Christian school?
2. What effect does it have on you and why should you care if someone prefers their child to be taught creationism?
3. What percent of your tax dollars goes to fund Parochial or other Christian schools?
4. Are those that send their children to the private schools exempt from paying taxes to support public education?

My point was that someone claimed that public schools are a joke, and I felt the need to show him what the REAL joke is.

Bunch
12-11-2013, 12:34 PM
Since you brought up Christianity first...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTerQAu64Qg&feature=share&list=UUWq53_f3zgMcWuE-XFKSpyQ&index=9

So only a conservative can be a Christian? Got it. Only conservatives hold exclusive rights to Jesus Christ? Got it. I will like you to point out to me where Jesus said in the bible that we should all vote GOP.

Just when I tought your type of debates couldn't go any lower...

Bunch
12-11-2013, 12:44 PM
Well, you wanted to bash Christians for their test about dinos, lets look at the truth about what liberals love to believe in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fw9ZukRy8A&feature=share&list=UUWq53_f3zgMcWuE-XFKSpyQ&index=2

Yeah because if a self ID "conservative christian" says it must be so!! Your sources of research are quite fascinating.

Bunch
12-11-2013, 12:50 PM
Then in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw1PQuZt4eQ&feature=share&list=UUWq53_f3zgMcWuE-XFKSpyQ&index=1

LMAO!!!

I finally get it!!!

Thats you!!! In the videos!!! It's you right?!! The whole "conservatives are God sent people and liberals are evil" gave it away. I mean is either you of you come here to write each spoken word this guy spouts so it must be you. I mean the similarities are just to strong to not be you.

socal1200r
12-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Oh, a joke you say?

You really need to get your meds adjusted...

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 02:21 PM
You really need to get your meds adjusted...

Me? You're the one who believes that those pictures reflect "quality" education, not me.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 04:14 PM
I'm looking at it like this: the very things that could ensure our very survival in the future may very well depend on the knowledge of things that are contradictory to Creationism.

Two examples:

1. Scientists discover that an asteroid is headed towards Earth. What are we going to do? We need to develop something that can either destroy or deflect that asteroid. With all of the scientific knowledge that this requires - beyond that which most people can comprehend - such required knowledge may include that of the formation of our solar system. The people with that scientific knowledge would be the very people responsible from saving everyone in the world from certain death. No one who believes in Creationism will be capable of such a thing.

2. AIDS. As of right now, the generally accepted explanation for its origins is in that of the bushmeat trade; where the traders were attacked by SIV-infected chimpanzees that they were handling. The DNA of chimpanzees is over 98% the same as that of humans. That said, finding the cure for AIDS could very well depend on the knowledge of evolution and our biological relationship to chimpanzees (or other apes, for that matter). If someone believes in Creationism, then that goes out the window.

You know what sucks? That four year old kid who's about to start kindergarten could very well be the one who discovers the cure for AIDS, or the one who saves the Earth from getting hit by an asteroid. But... his parents send him to a Christian school instead. Welp, there goes THAT!

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 04:17 PM
So only a conservative can be a Christian? Got it. Only conservatives hold exclusive rights to Jesus Christ? Got it. I will like you to point out to me where Jesus said in the bible that we should all vote GOP.

Just when I tought your type of debates couldn't go any lower...

My "type" huh? And no where did anyone say anything about liberals not being allowed to be Christian. Obviously you didnt understand the video. I find you post kind of racist and intolerant to be honest.

Bunch
12-11-2013, 04:20 PM
My "type" huh? And no where did anyone say anything about liberals not being allowed to be Christian. Obviously you didnt understand the video. I find you post kind of racist and intolerant to be honest.

Your "type" as in "conservative are God people vs Liberal are evil".You make every single topic something about conservatives vs liberal. It gets a bit old.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 04:21 PM
LMAO!!!

I finally get it!!!

Thats you!!! In the videos!!! It's you right?!! The whole "conservatives are God sent people and liberals are evil" gave it away. I mean is either you of you come here to write each spoken word this guy spouts so it must be you. I mean the similarities are just to strong to not be you.

I actually havent listened to this guy in over a year now. Its jsut recent that I have seen his videos shared on FB. And actually, he was against Ron Paul in the primaries. He is a war hawk, but on other things, he speaks the truth very eloquently.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 04:24 PM
My "type" huh? And no where did anyone say anything about liberals not being allowed to be Christian. Obviously you didnt understand the video. I find you post kind of racist and intolerant to be honest.

Report him to the mods, see what they say.

Mjölnir
12-11-2013, 04:26 PM
Is this thread about Common Core any longer?

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 04:27 PM
I'm looking at it like this: the very things that could ensure our very survival in the future may very well depend on the knowledge of things that are contradictory to Creationism.

Two examples:

1. Scientists discover that an asteroid is headed towards Earth. What are we going to do? We need to develop something that can either destroy or deflect that asteroid. With all of the scientific knowledge that this requires - beyond that which most people can comprehend - such required knowledge may include that of the formation of our solar system. The people with that scientific knowledge would be the very people responsible from saving everyone in the world from certain death. No one who believes in Creationism will be capable of such a thing.OMG, wow. That is amazing. believing in creationism means you cant comprehend astrophysiscs.


2. AIDS. As of right now, the generally accepted explanation for its origins is in that of the bushmeat trade; where the traders were attacked by SIV-infected chimpanzees that they were handling. The DNA of chimpanzees is over 98% the same as that of humans. That said, finding the cure for AIDS could very well depend on the knowledge of evolution and our biological relationship to chimpanzees (or other apes, for that matter). If someone believes in Creationism, then that goes out the window.Actually, it doesnt. Creationism doesnt mean they believe in no connection with other animals. These are strawmen areguements and you know it.


You know what sucks? That four year old kid who's about to start kindergarten could very well be the one who discovers the cure for AIDS, or the one who saves the Earth from getting hit by an asteroid. But... his parents send him to a Christian school instead. Welp, there goes THAT!
And he loses all of his inteligence because of the idea of creationism. To play role reversal, the best speaker and leader the world has ever known believes in survival of the fittest and believes that only his race should live in the world. And only because of public schools teaching him this idea, he gets followers to round up everyone not of his race, or has a mental defect, and gasses them.

AlexCross
12-11-2013, 04:28 PM
We have been going back and forth on putting our kids back into private school. They thrived there. But there weren't as many oppurtunites for extra curriculars. There was no teaching to the test though. The kids learned so much more. I don't like the common core at all. More than likely next year all three will be back in private school and we will just supplement extras with private lessons or city sports. At least for a few more years. They are 1st, 4th, and 5th grade. I feel they have learned less in the years they have been in public than they did in private. The older two were reading chapter books coming out of Kinder. My fifth grader is currently reading a book she read in second grade for fun...but now it is a class assignment.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 04:29 PM
Is this thread about Common Core any longer?

Yep. Discussing the problems that a blanket policy like CC has numerous failures seen many times over. Discussing the differences between public school and private schools right now.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 04:37 PM
OMG, wow. That is amazing. believing in creationism means you cant comprehend astrophysiscs.

And that's a shocker? I'm not saying that it's going to hinder the mathematical aspect of it, but the base qualitative knowledge of the formation of our solar system could very well be a perquisite before such technology could be developed.


Actually, it doesnt. Creationism doesnt mean they believe in no connection with other animals. These are strawmen areguements and you know it.

No, it's not. Creationism says that God made Adam out of dirt and his own breath, then made Eve by pulling a rib out of him. That, right there, shows humans being created totally independent of other species. Creationists bitch everyday about "I ain't related to no monkey." I don't know where the hell you've been to not know any of this.


And he loses all of his inteligence because of the idea of creationism. To play role reversal, the best speaker and leader the world has ever known believes in survival of the fittest and believes that only his race should live in the world. And only because of public schools teaching him this idea, he gets followers to round up everyone not of his race, or has a mental defect, and gasses them.

Your analogy was stupid. But I will say that the foundational knowledge required to do certain things is not being taught to children when they're being taught Creationism.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 06:15 PM
And that's a shocker? I'm not saying that it's going to hinder the mathematical aspect of it, but the base qualitative knowledge of the formation of our solar system could very well be a perquisite before such technology could be developed.The mathematics is all that matters. Where things are going, how gravity works, speed of light etc. Believing whether or not everything was placed as it currently is or a magical spark ignited and blew everything into the spot we currently find it doesnt stop someone from know how to coprehend where an asteroid is is going to move through. Astophysics have been Christians before, and we are still in the same place we are at now.


No, it's not. Creationism says that God made Adam out of dirt and his own breath, then made Eve by pulling a rib out of him. That, right there, shows humans being created totally independent of other species. Creationists bitch everyday about "I ain't related to no monkey." I don't know where the hell you've been to not know any of this.Where do you think creationist believe other animals where created from? For those that believe there is no link between us and other animals is a matter of wishing to believe in ignorance. And you lumping every single one of them together is being prejudice against people you know nothing about.


Your analogy was stupid. But I will say that the foundational knowledge required to do certain things is not being taught to children when they're being taught Creationism.
Its only stupid if you wish to believe it. Its a very easy step to have someone to believe their race or type of human is superior than other types of humans, especially when we are taught about survival of the fittest. Maybe one wont just have other races killed and just have them do the jobs their race is best suited for. We as humans have adapted to enviorments we origionate from. You believing that someone that is taught creationism, or that creationism being taught hinders that one special person who hypothetically could save the world one day is nonsense. Creationism has been taught for centuries, yet here we are today with the knowledge and advancements, mostly due to the US inventors.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 06:17 PM
LMAO!!!

I finally get it!!!

Thats you!!! In the videos!!! It's you right?!! The whole "conservatives are God sent people and liberals are evil" gave it away. I mean is either you of you come here to write each spoken word this guy spouts so it must be you. I mean the similarities are just to strong to not be you.

I notice how you didnt refute anything in the video btw. But if we are going to make assumptions of who eachother really are in life, I have a few people on MSNBC I can post who you sound exactly like. ;)

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 06:26 PM
The mathematics is all that matters.

Welp, there goes your credibility.


Where things are going, how gravity works, speed of light etc. Believing whether or not everything was placed as it currently is or a magical spark ignited and blew everything into the spot we currently find it doesnt stop someone from know how to coprehend where an asteroid is is going to move through. Astophysics have been Christians before, and we are still in the same place we are at now.

I'm saying that knowledge of how the solar system formed MAY be required. For all I know, it might not be. However, if ignorance DOES have any effect... it will be a negative one, and not a positive one.

By stating what YOU'VE just stated, you have just crossed the line of talking out of your ass. Congratulations.


Where do you think creationist believe other animals where created from? For those that believe there is no link between us and other animals is a matter of wishing to believe in ignorance. And you lumping every single one of them together is being prejudice against people you know nothing about.

Nice try, only I wasn't an atheist my whole life. Once upon a time, I used to believe the bullshit... so I'm pretty well qualified to talk about it. Where do Creationist believe that other animals came from? They believe that God simply created them on the 6th day. Not that that matters... I just let myself get suckered into entertaining your red herrings.


Its only stupid if you wish to believe it. Its a very easy step to have someone to believe their race or type of human is superior than other types of humans, especially when we are taught about survival of the fittest. Maybe one wont just have other races killed and just have them do the jobs their race is best suited for. We as humans have adapted to enviorments we origionate from. You believing that someone that is taught creationism, or that creationism being taught hinders that one special person who hypothetically could save the world one day is nonsense.

No, your analogy is just stupid.


Creationism has been taught for centuries, yet here we are today with the knowledge and advancements, mostly due to the US inventors.

Yep... by people who either don't believe in Creationism, or by people who were able to push their belief in Creationism aside in order to do what they did. Which would mean that they're not true believers in Creationism in the first place.

Bunch
12-11-2013, 06:33 PM
I notice how you didnt refute anything in the video btw. But if we are going to make assumptions of who eachother really are in life, I have a few people on MSNBC I can post who you sound exactly like. ;)

You don't need to post any videos, you remind everyone here ad nauseam on a daily basis how you view liberals.

In regards to refuting the videos, please tell me how you refute this:


From the video on Christianity: "Seculars shouldn't worry about us conservatives christians. Save that apprehension for liberals that call themselves christians"
And then the guy on the video proceed to rant about how liberal see the bible and its teachings. The direct correlation is that no one liberal can ever be a true Christian much less a faithful one.

What is it to refute there? If anything it offends me that someone would judge my love for Jesus and the teachings of the bible because I have certain political leaning. That's why I personally never mix politics with religion. I give you that he raises some legitimate points but when you mix nonsense with the rest you lose all credibility.

Pretty much he is in the videos what I consider you to be here.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 06:47 PM
I've seen a couple of his videos before, a few years ago. Like most conservatives, his videos are made of rhetoric that's designed to shut you up and render himself victorious in an argument... not to get you to see his point of view or convince you that his cause is a good one that you should be onboard with.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 06:55 PM
You don't need to post any videos, you remind everyone here ad nauseam on a daily basis how you view liberals.

In regards to refuting the videos, please tell me how you refute this:


And then the guy on the video proceed to rant about how liberal see the bible and its teachings. The direct correlation is that no one liberal can ever be a true Christian much less a faithful one.

What is it to refute there? If anything it offends me that someone would judge my love for Jesus and the teachings of the bible because I have certain political leaning. That's why I personally never mix politics with religion. I give you that he raises some legitimate points but when you mix nonsense with the rest you lose all credibility.

Pretty much he is in the videos what I consider you to be here.

That is on the premis of the liberals that say conservatives want to make the US a theocracy, but they proceed to use the bible as a means to justify taxes. But that was just one. The quote of yours I was responding to is the one about common core, not the Christian one.

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 06:58 PM
That is on the premis of the liberals that say conservatives want to make the US a theocracy, but they proceed to use the bible as a means to justify taxes.

Only for the purpose of using the conservatives' own tool against them.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 07:01 PM
I've seen a couple of his videos before, a few years ago. Like most conservatives, his videos are made of rhetoric that's designed to shut you up and render himself victorious in an argument... not to get you to see his point of view or convince you that his cause is a good one that you should be onboard with.

If you cant answer his comments, and you still refuse to see his point of view, then who is the one playing ignorant? His points about the common core questionaire are acurate, since we all know politics is never just a two side, yes or no, view. Thats shown many times when abortion is brought up and then there are all the questions about "you want to ban abortion for rape and incest and deformaties..?" When he was talking about Ron Paul and "letting Iran get a nuke", I could actually disagree with him because I knew he was using a straw man arguement that Paul never said.

AJBIGJ
12-11-2013, 07:01 PM
And then the guy on the video proceed to rant about how liberal see the bible and its teachings. The direct correlation is that no one liberal can ever be a true Christian much less a faithful one.

What is it to refute there? If anything it offends me that someone would judge my love for Jesus and the teachings of the bible because I have certain political leaning. That's why I personally never mix politics with religion. I give you that he raises some legitimate points but when you mix nonsense with the rest you lose all credibility.

Pretty much he is in the videos what I consider you to be here.

I won't go as far as to say he and those of his philosophical leanings are the only ones out there who are guilty of hostile condescension, but it really is starting to appear to be a significant portion of what it apparently means to be "A Conservative" in this day and age, as if legislating through the bible is a mandate from the divine. I remember a discussion I had with one of my more "conservative" friends on facebook a couple of years about the DADT repeal and same sex marriage. His position was, that essentially he feared my spirit would be damned for admitting I don't have all the facts of the nature of what it means to be a homosexual and whether simply being one is sinful or not. Thus I don't "hate" homosexuality because I freely admit I also don't very well understand it, nor hold the position that we should use coercive force through the government to legislate against it. The attitude is definitely not conducive to civil discourse.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 07:02 PM
Only for the purpose of using the conservatives' own tool against them.

Even though you are wrong. Even the devil knows the words in the bible, and will use half truths to persuade those that dont study.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-11-2013, 07:04 PM
I won't go as far as to say he and those of his philosophical leanings are the only ones out there who are guilty of hostile condescension, but it really is starting to appear to be a significant portion of what it apparently means to be "A Conservative" in this day and age, as if legislating through the bible is a mandate from the divine. I remember a discussion I had with one of my more "conservative" friends on facebook a couple of years about the DADT repeal and same sex marriage. His position was, that essentially he feared my spirit would be damned for admitting I don't have all the facts of the nature of what it means to be a homosexual and whether simply being one is sinful or not. Thus I don't "hate" homosexuality because I freely admit I also don't very well understand it, nor hold the position that we should use coercive force through the government to legislate against it. The attitude is definitely not conducive to civil discourse.

And thats where I totally agree with you A, its not the governments responsibility to make laws against it. And that was actually Alfonzo's position too. He was saying "dont tell me what the bible says when you are not living by it yourself".

Rusty Jones
12-11-2013, 07:13 PM
If you cant answer his comments, and you still refuse to see his point of view, then who is the one playing ignorant?

Let me ask you ask you something: right now, there is no proof that life exist on other planets. None. However, if I said to you, "As big as the universe is, how do know that there is no life on other planets?"

Would you then feel forced to concede and agree with me? What's that's called is an "ad ignorantium" fallacy. It's one of the many that are designed to simply win arguments, and has absolutely ZERO persuasive value.

Again, winning an argument and convincing someone of something are two totally different things. And all this care cares about is winning arguments.


Even though you are wrong. Even the devil knows the words in the bible, and will use half truths to persuade those that dont study.

No, dude. You're wrong... as usual. As a liberal - and an atheist - I do it all the time. So did JB when he was here. So do so many other atheists everywhere you go. If you proclaim something to be an authority, then I'm going to show that "authority" and how it disagrees with some of the things you stand for - which will either force you to change your stance, or stop using it as an authority. You want to talk about inconvenient truths? THAT'S one for you.

AJBIGJ
12-11-2013, 07:15 PM
And thats where I totally agree with you A, its not the governments responsibility to make laws against it. And that was actually Alfonzo's position too. He was saying "dont tell me what the bible says when you are not living by it yourself".

Still though, his statements and those of others who hold similar beliefs quite frequently push forth the idea that "if you don't share my views about the role of government inter-relating to religion, you can't possibly be a very good Christian". It's more than a slight turnoff to those who do not share those views. To be fair, I've seen a lot of people on another side of the argument pushing the idea that Jesus was the first true socialist.

The mentality makes it crystal clear to me why someone had the foresight to add an establishment clause in the First Amendment.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-12-2013, 02:56 AM
Let me ask you ask you something: right now, there is no proof that life exist on other planets. None. However, if I said to you, "As big as the universe is, how do know that there is no life on other planets?"

Would you then feel forced to concede and agree with me? What's that's called is an "ad ignorantium" fallacy. It's one of the many that are designed to simply win arguments, and has absolutely ZERO persuasive value.

Again, winning an argument and convincing someone of something are two totally different things. And all this care cares about is winning arguments.Depends on whether you believe in creationism or not. I could say that I don't believe there is life out there because the argument to produce life with just the right set of circumstances hasn't been proven. So, you haven't shown me how that argument works, you have just shown me how an argument against ignorance works. But hey, you have had all day to look up what he was talking about and respond...to the common core vids. He seemed pretty clear about what he was saying in the Christian video since he did provide the entire verse and passage as he was talking.

No, dude. You're wrong... as usual. As a liberal - and an atheist - I do it all the time. So did JB when he was here. So do so many other atheists everywhere you go. If you proclaim something to be an authority, then I'm going to show that "authority" and how it disagrees with some of the things you stand for - which will either force you to change your stance, or stop using it as an authority. You want to talk about inconvenient truths? THAT'S one for you.
Yes, you two both use half truths. Thank you for conceding that fact.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-12-2013, 03:00 AM
Still though, his statements and those of others who hold similar beliefs quite frequently push forth the idea that "if you don't share my views about the role of government inter-relating to religion, you can't possibly be a very good Christian". It's more than a slight turnoff to those who do not share those views. To be fair, I've seen a lot of people on another side of the argument pushing the idea that Jesus was the first true socialist.

The mentality makes it crystal clear to me why someone had the foresight to add an establishment clause in the First Amendment.

Ok, getting off track here. I don't think that was what he was saying, just using that video as an example of how the left uses half truths to promote their side. Sadly, so does the progressive right. The libertarians love the verse, "Don't worry about the spec of dust in your neighbors eye when you have a log in your own." As long as what you are doing doesn't harm me, as long as the private school doesn't harm me, what should it matter. Those that have been pushing for bigger and more government control seem to really not understand.

Cerberus
12-12-2013, 03:07 AM
Thread closed, off topic.