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View Full Version : Your wing Top III (do they make a difference)?



Try
12-04-2013, 05:35 PM
Does your wing Top 3 really make a difference? Do your SNCOs support it or is it looked at as "those people trying to get promoted" or "a SNCO fundraising organization?"

Juggs
12-04-2013, 05:43 PM
Does your wing Top 3 really make a difference? Do your SNCOs support it or is it looked at as "those people trying to get promoted" or "a SNCO fundraising organization?"

No. It's simply a way for the powers that be to pat themselves on the back.

Kicker47
12-04-2013, 06:19 PM
At one point, I was part of a Top 3 where we had a Top 3/56 Club liason. Basically, because I was one of the newer MSgts, I went to some of the 56 Club meetings and represented the Top 3. I think it was very helpful to the 56 Club, because if they had an idea or needed support for a project, I could speak for the Top 3 right then and there.

Other than that...meh.

BISSBOSS
12-04-2013, 06:50 PM
Does your wing Top 3 really make a difference? Do your SNCOs support it or is it looked at as "those people trying to get promoted" or "a SNCO fundraising organization?"

HELL YES!!!

They certainly did where I was station!

I mean - Those burger weren't gonna cook THEMSELVES!

Sorry... I COULDN'T let that one slide by!


-BB-

imported_DannyJ
12-04-2013, 06:52 PM
I honestly cannot say that I have heard of any significant impact/activies...

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
12-05-2013, 01:05 AM
Remove Top 3 related participation from the EPR and membership will plummet. That alone will show what that org (or others) means to people.

BRUWIN
12-05-2013, 03:24 AM
No. It's simply a way for the powers that be to pat themselves on the back.

The wing "Top 3" changed my life. I was a lost soul until I became a part of that organization. The people that dislike it are the dirtbags, lowlifes. They are people with nothing better to do than complain with ever lifting a finger to make the world we live in a better place.

grimreaper
12-05-2013, 03:48 AM
Does your wing Top 3 really make a difference? Do your SNCOs support it or is it looked at as "those people trying to get promoted" or "a SNCO fundraising organization?"

I love the idea behind the Top III. I know several people who believe in it and really do make a difference and don't care about the recognition. Unfortunately, those people are vastly outnumbered by the people using it simply to get promoted and if they couldn't use Top III-related fluff in their EPR, you would never see them at a meeting or sponsored event ever again. That really soured me on the whole thing. I go to the meetings and the functions I want to participate in, but i flat out refuse to go to some of them because I can only take the latter-type of people in small doses. I'm afraid I might accidentally choke one of them out.

crwchf16
12-05-2013, 09:32 AM
I love the idea behind the Top III. I know several people who believe in it and really do make a difference and don't care about the recognition. Unfortunately, those people are vastly outnumbered by the people using it simply to get promoted and if they couldn't use Top III-related fluff in their EPR, you would never see them at a meeting or sponsored event ever again. That really soured me on the whole thing. I go to the meetings and the functions I want to participate in, but i flat out refuse to go to some of them because I can only take the latter-type of people in small doses. I'm afraid I might accidentally choke one of them out.


I can definitely identify with this statement. When I made MSgt the local Top-3 tried to tell me that membership (and it's dues) were mandatory. I quickly told them what I thought of that concept. In the time I'd been at that base I'd never seen the Top-3 do something acutually worthwhile and that hasn't changed since. I agree there are some fantastic people who are members but they are the minority among the box-checkers trying to make their next stripe. Those self-serving bozos have permanently soured me on the whole concept of having a Top-3, let alone my joining it.

Gonzo432
12-05-2013, 09:50 AM
]The wing "Top 3" changed my life[/B]. I was a lost soul until I became a part of that organization. The people that dislike it are the dirtbags, lowlifes. They are people with nothing better to do than complain with ever lifting a finger to make the world we live in a better place.

I just blew coffee out of my nose, it was not a pleasant experience.

Chief_KO
12-05-2013, 12:17 PM
I don't remember any orgs back in the 80's. Each unit had a Unit Advisory Council and had reps attend the Base Advisory Council. The councils were there to make QoL recommendations, improvements, and feedback to leadership on morale, etc.
The org's replaced the UAC/BAC and were supposed to do the same. Unfortunately what happened instead is what most have voiced above. Fundraising is #1, CCC "gophers" is a close #2. When each org is presented with their "tax" by the CCC for annual awards, 12 OAY, etc. it is apparent that they are no longer focused on the right thing. Add to that the "one-upsmanship" of each new org council trying to make their event "bigger & better" than the previous. Seriously, a $100 doo dad for each new SNCO??? Annual awards banquet with a $15K budget???
Each meeting usually has someone pitching a "can we contribute $$ to xxxx", usually with xxxx having little to do with the org's purpose. Nothing against Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Susan G. Komen, Toys for Tots, etc. but that is not why a base private org exists. And usually no one in attendance has a copy of the by laws or constitution that clearly would show those "noble causes" are outside of the scope of the org. And once you open your checkbook, it remains open.
And to make things worse, CCC's have dictated that these orgs are not the place to cuss & discuss base policies, etc. Exactly the opposite of what they were originally intended to do.

Juggs
12-05-2013, 02:55 PM
The wing "Top 3" changed my life. I was a lost soul until I became a part of that organization. The people that dislike it are the dirtbags, lowlifes. They are people with nothing better to do than complain with ever lifting a finger to make the world we live in a better place.

Oh why did I go down the path of unrighteousness????!!!!

raider8169
12-05-2013, 03:20 PM
The only thing I have ever seen out of the TOP III is fundraising and BBQs.

TomTom093
12-05-2013, 09:22 PM
It's the same with all the other levels. I've been to a few Airman's Voice meetings because my leadership "encouraged" it, and I genuinely don't know why they exist except to give the council a bullet.

Drackore
12-06-2013, 04:41 AM
Ok I'll step up and say I'm one of "those" guys. I ran for a council seat at my base. I really did want to make a difference. First thing I convinced the rest of the council to do was eliminate about 90% of the stupid fundraisers. We did three big ones a year. I wanted to focus on mentoring, networking, crosstalk, and trend analysis. I wanted to pull in guest speakers to talk to us about things we needed to hear, to know. I wanted to get things like self improvement, leadership, community going.

Yea...grand designs. I was going to make a difference. I didn't care about the EPR bullet. I knew it was going to be huge on my EPR but I already had all boxes checked anyways. I was just disgusted with the organization everywhere else I went and I wanted to shake things up.

Problem with shaking things up...it needs to be "shake-able".

Oh fuck no....talk about resistance. You'd think I was trying to murder babies and reintegrate the AF with Army. They didn't want change. They wanted status quo. They'd bitch about the status quo, but when it came time to change it...nope. They didn't even have to do the leg work, but it didn't matter.

So it's not really even those that run for the council...it's the fucktards that attend the meetings. THOSE are the bullet chasers. Fuck that shit. Especially the E8s and E9s that attend the meetings and try to bully the council. Fuck them too.

MyAlterEgo
12-06-2013, 10:45 AM
I was on dish duty after Thanksgiving dinner. I looked at the pile of dishes and realized...This is no way to live! I joined the base Top III and felt a sudden wind at my back that helped me withstand the onslaught of verbal abuse that my wife dished out as I told her I was not going to do the dishes. Within minutes my wife was scrubbing pots and pans and I enjoyed a Manhattan on the porch.

Thank you Top III!

BISSBOSS
12-06-2013, 01:51 PM
I don't remember any orgs back in the 80's. Each unit had a Unit Advisory Council and had reps attend the Base Advisory Council. The councils were there to make QoL recommendations, improvements, and feedback to leadership on morale, etc.

I too remember the UACs. I got to do a term as a UAC President and while each person on the UAC had a vote (Including the Commander and the Shirt) the majority ruled and the CC and/or CCF were regularly overruled.

We were able to do some really good things for the unit but when the Top-3 came along, the UACs dried up and went away. The focus changed dramatically as well.

-BB-

Sq Goldn boy
12-06-2013, 02:39 PM
The last time I heard from the Top III was at my promotion celebration. They had their hands held out at the door requiring me to pay my $60 to get promoted. Seriously, I said "so if I don't give you $60, I can't get promoted?". They said "If you don't like it, you can talk to the Command Chief". I was excited to get promoted, but that just pissed me off. I have never even seen an email about when/where Top III meetings are held.

BRUWIN
12-06-2013, 04:43 PM
I don't remember any orgs back in the 80's.

That was because we focused on the important stuff...like turning the Soviet Union into one big crater if they started any shit.

Juggs
12-06-2013, 05:14 PM
Yes and until. Recently we were fighting two wars yet this DBs forgot what actual fighting was like since they had been training for 30 yrs.

DWWSWWD
12-06-2013, 06:46 PM
Especially the E8s and E9s that attend the meetings and try to bully the council. Fuck them too. Hmmm. Could be that you'd think I'm one of these guys. I think it's important for Chiefs to go to the meetings. For one thing, my teammates know that I'd better not see an involved Top 3 member bullet come across my desk if they aren't an involved Top 3 member. They know that if I can make time to go, then they can as well. As far as my input to the council, I sometimes need to remind the good idea fairies that they have a finite amount of manpower and they should use it wisely to move out in accordance with their charter. E.g.-

Ass-kisser good idea fairy: Hey, we're going to get together at 1000 on Wednesday and go read to schoolkids
CMSgt Bully DW: Which piece of that has anything to do with what this organization was chartered to do? If you want to go read to your kid, maybe you could solicit volunteers seperately so as not to convolute the efforts and direction of this Top 3.

See, something like that. Your other comments were exactly what 1 Top 3 I was part of did. It was great. We mentored, we had guests, we shared with the CGOC, Bottom 3, Rising Rock Stars or whatever. We were like minded and didn't stray from that kind of stuff. We drank beer at meetings and hung out afterward. We went on dive trips together and cooked out on weekends. Sadly, I haven't seen it before or since. That was only a couple of years ago, by the way.

Z1911
12-06-2013, 10:30 PM
Presuming that if an org (any org) had universally accepted (and recognized) added value, and the active/involved membership rolls would be overswelling with folks, can anyone say the Top Three at any location has the problem of not being able to find a large enough space to have it's meetings because of the vast numbers of aforementioned, active/involved membership that would be in attendance?



Didn't think so...



My point? If it's such a great, viable org to be a member of, then why doesn't every Top Three, at every location, have the problem of too much active/involved membership?

raustin0017
12-06-2013, 11:41 PM
I was a TSgt with a line number and one of the great leaders in my AF life grabbed me up at 1500 and made me drive to some meeting. Did not want to go, but he left me little choice. I sat in the back with my arms crossed and was soon attending my 1st Top 3 meeting. Once I opened my eyes I saw the guys/gals who were making a difference around the base. All they talked about was taking care of the Airmen. How much $$$ was left in the kitty for scholarships? Who is running the dorm cookout? And....several other areas focused on the younger force. This is a group of professionals I wanted to be around.

The only reason to have a Top 3 at any base is to take care of the Airmen. If it is focused on anything else it should be shut down. I was involved as a member, treasurer, and president. When I made Chief...I continued to attend. Most times I was the only one...but I attended. When I served as CCC...I attended the meeting and brought the Wg/CC if his schedule would allow.

Several bases have a problem with attendance. You have to find a way to stir the passion and provide a reason for folks to attend and join. If the meetings are full of @ss kissers.....its not going to work. If the meeting is full of SNCOs who truly give a crap about trying to fix stuff around the base...then you have a meeting.

Juggs
12-07-2013, 12:24 AM
Heck I went to one 5/6 council meeting and saw what type of asshatery went on in those. So glad I was actually stationed at one AFB my entire service. Those councils end up be self licking icecream cones. All they do is generate bullets. The folks I saw running top III were just gunning for chief usually.

I saw a chief repeatedly push this TSgt that just got a line number to go to the promotion party. The thing is that dude had to pay to go. He repeatedly said no and was harassed by the group chief. All you do is pay for other people to drink with your money. He even went as far as telling to have his SQ sup or CC pay. What kind of BS is that? That was the nail in the coffin for me and councils.

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-07-2013, 12:31 AM
Take out the fundraising.

akruse
12-07-2013, 12:56 AM
Our Grp Chief wanted a Grp Top 3 started for all the right reasons. His first rule dealing with the start of the org was that there would be NO FUNDRAISING. The first actual large group meeting consisted of the elected president talking about how we were going to raise funds. This was after numerous small group meetings between us and the Chief discussing what we wanted out of it. It was incredible. I walked out and never went back.

Gonzo432
12-07-2013, 12:57 AM
Take out the fundraising.

Roger that.

BRUWIN
12-08-2013, 03:03 AM
Our Grp Chief wanted a Grp Top 3 started for all the right reasons. His first rule dealing with the start of the org was that there would be NO FUNDRAISING. The first actual large group meeting consisted of the elected president talking about how we were going to raise funds. This was after numerous small group meetings between us and the Chief discussing what we wanted out of it. It was incredible. I walked out and never went back.

I agree there should be no fundraising in the Top Three. My first order of business when I was a treasurer one year was to coordinate a Top 3 fundraiser to ensure the Top 3 had enough money to do no more fundraising. It didn't make enough money so I had to even more fundraisers but in the end we had no fundraisers for the rest of my two months as treasurer. I virtually eliminated fundraising singlehandidly due to my my efforts and it was a good bullet on my EPR. Bad news was that only one month after I was not treasurer they spent all the money and they had to fund raise again. Idiots.

mjt
12-08-2013, 12:39 PM
Our Top 3 limited fundraising to once a quarter, once every six months if the budget could handle it. Our most successful fundraisers were ones that didn't rely on significant up front costs and focused on friendly competition/camaraderie. They also made it a goal to do one professional development event a month; and worked with 5/6 for the ideas because 1.) they're creative and 2.) they were our target audience. They turned out well.

They did put on base community events because there was a severe lack of things to do on base and in the surrounding area. Every event was supplemented by monies from fundraising so it could be free to the Airmen. FSS and the other org's would also chip in to make the experience better. And, there was all the other typical stuff most Top 3 orgs do (scholarships, monthly meeting/brief, etc..). They tried to make the briefs value-added by bringing people in with specialized experience. One Chief previously worked at JBSA and knew everything there was to know about the promotion process and development of the PDG. They brought the Wing Commander in once to provide a no B.S. straightforward talk about the wing's goals, trends and expectations of SNCOs there.

Overall I'd say they did make a difference, but they've been more the exception and not the rule.

imported_KnuckleDragger
12-08-2013, 02:06 PM
Why scholarships? The AD member has TA and GI BILL. The family member has plenty of grants/scholarships available, if looked for. Either way, I don't see this as a Top 3 function. It is a self worth/bullet creator.

Burger burns, really?

fufu
12-09-2013, 12:06 AM
Since sewing on Master, I've been to like 3-5 meetings. Of the meetings I've been to, they've talked about 3 things:

1) Fundraisers
2) How to get promoted
3) Promotion Ceremonies - How to run, blues/no blues, blah, blah, blah.

The last one I went to lasted 14 minutes. The only reason I went was to hear the new officers announced. 1 is on the fast track to E9. 1 is a pretty good dude, but he sticks his hand up for everything under the sun....married w/no kids. I'm busy enough with work, school and my family. I ain't got time to be playing bake sale/burger burn ninjago or Emcee promo ceremonies.

BOSS302
12-09-2013, 06:30 AM
Since sewing on Master, I've been to like 3-5 meetings. Of the meetings I've been to, they've talked about 3 things:

1) Fundraisers
2) How to get promoted
3) Promotion Ceremonies - How to run, blues/no blues, blah, blah, blah.

The last one I went to lasted 14 minutes. The only reason I went was to hear the new officers announced. 1 is on the fast track to E9. 1 is a pretty good dude, but he sticks his hand up for everything under the sun....married w/no kids. I'm busy enough with work, school and my family. I ain't got time to be playing bake sale/burger burn ninjago or Emcee promo ceremonies.

That kind of racist attitude will get you no where.

BUDJR8
12-09-2013, 07:42 AM
I've tried to get involved in the past with Wg Top 3 at more than one base and I haven't seen anything worth my time, than maybe the SNCO induction ceremony, which I think is pretty neat/important. Most of the time it's a lot of politics and back stabbing. Those hungry for the positions know that 9 times out of 10 it will help them get promoted.

The problem in the SNCO core is bigger than just Top-3 and bake sales...see...the folks that used all that crap to get a leg up are now all Chiefs boarding the others and looking down on those that don't have that on their EPRs. I'd much rather spend what free time I may get in my squadron with the Airmen and NCOs where I can make more of a difference. I can honestly think back over the last 3 years and cannot think of one positive thing that the Wing Top 3 has done for any of my Airmen or NCOs (not counting the induction ceremonies).

John Jameson
12-14-2013, 02:37 AM
I was a SNCO for over 10 years before I retired and was involved in various TOP 3 orgs at 5 different assignments. Can't think of any meaningful things we accomplished. So no, they don't make any difference in my experience.