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Stalwart
12-02-2013, 05:15 PM
The CNO discusses going back to the system where the Navy picked up 75% of the tab per class and the individual Sailor pays the other 25%, essentially the way TA was prior to 2000.

TA for FY14 is covered and funded ($84 million), so the earliest they would make a change would be FY15.

Overall if it stretches the amount of people that can effectively use TA then it is probably for the best. It is a benefit and not part of the basic pay package.

Navy Times: http://www.navytimes.com/article/20131130/EDU02/311300001/CNO-You-may-pay-tuition-benefit

AJBIGJ
12-02-2013, 05:28 PM
Probably not a bad thing entirely, I hope they throw in a provido for allowing additional subsidies such as Yellow Ribbon Society to factor in after this change. I definitely think that anyone who really wants the degree will make it work with the additional cost burden (under the system we're in Master's programs only covered 2/3, and it didn't stop me) will make it work.

Rusty Jones
12-02-2013, 07:00 PM
So if a Sailor has to drop a class due to "operational commitment," do they get reimbursed?

I came in when you had to pay 25%, but that changed about a little more than a year after I came in - so I never used the old system.

I think that the Marine Corps has the best program, if they haven't change it - i.e., you get $4,500/yr (or whatever it is). You can take as many classes as you want at any school, as long as you stay within the cap. Whereas, all of the other services have credit limits - even if you spend less than half of the cap on the maximum number of credits at El Cheapo Community college.

AJBIGJ
12-02-2013, 07:04 PM
So if a Sailor has to drop a class due to "operational commitment," do they get reimbursed?

I came in when you had to pay 25%, but that changed about a little more than a year after I came in - so I never used the old system.

I think that the Marine Corps has the best program, if they haven't change it - i.e., you get $4,500/yr (or whatever it is). You can take as many classes as you want at any school, as long as you stay within the cap. Whereas, all of the other services have credit limits - even if you spend less than half of the cap on the maximum number of credits at El Cheapo Community college.

That's essentially what it was through the Navy when I used it, with the exception that there was also limitations on how much would be covered per quarter/semester on top of that.

Rusty Jones
12-02-2013, 07:19 PM
The main problem I see with this is that, because they've come out of their own pockets, you've got a serious fight on your hands if a Sailor using TA is asked to do something at a time that conflicts with his classes. Especially since, if it isn't now, degrees will become a de facto requirement for advancement into and within the CPO ranks.

BTW, this was why I was upset when MCPON Campa lifted the requirement for an associate's degree for advancement to Senior Chief. Don't be fooled - just because it's no longer a de jure requirement, that doesn't mean that it won't be a de facto requirement - and I HATE de factos with a passion, because it gives people who don't meet the unwritten requirement a false sense of hope and fairness.

AJBIGJ
12-02-2013, 07:22 PM
The main problem I see with this is that, because they've come out of their own pockets, you've got a serious fight on your hands if a Sailor using TA is asked to do something at a time that conflicts with his classes. Especially since, if it isn't now, degrees will become a de facto requirement for advancement into and within the CPO ranks.

BTW, this was why I was upset when MCPON Campa lifted the requirement for an associate's degree for advancement to Senior Chief. Don't be fooled - just because it's no longer a de jure requirement, that doesn't mean that it won't be a de facto requirement - and I HATE de factos with a passion, because it gives people who don't meet the unwritten requirement a false sense of hope and fairness.

I know exactly what you mean. I've never thought much of having a degree being considered as a "metric" towards being an effective Chief, whether the rule is spoken loudly or not.

Rusty Jones
12-02-2013, 07:37 PM
True, but there are civilian jobs today that require bachelor's degrees; when those SAME jobs were being done by high school dropouts back in the 1970's. I think that people can lament about degrees not making one an effective leader until the cows come home, but when you think about it... requiring an associate's degree for advancement to Senior Chief is so lenient, it's almost a joke.

In the civilian world, the bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. This renders the associate's degree completely worthless.

AJBIGJ
12-02-2013, 08:24 PM
True, but there are civilian jobs today that require bachelor's degrees; when those SAME jobs were being done by high school dropouts back in the 1970's. I think that people can lament about degrees not making one an effective leader until the cows come home, but when you think about it... requiring an associate's degree for advancement to Senior Chief is so lenient, it's almost a joke.

In the civilian world, the bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. This renders the associate's degree completely worthless.

I believe a good education makes a person more "marketable" in a sense, but one has to look in a bit more detail towards whether that education actually helps to provide the appropriate KSAs to do the job they're being appointed into effectively. It can be a key discriminator, as when you have two individuals side-by-side with nearly identical resumes, but one of the two also happens to have a degree. That situation at least carries with it the implication that the person with the degree might potentially have the drive to do that much more than the minimum, although it is hardly perfect in such regard. I'm particularly annoyed by "de facto" requirements, they only tend to make a process all the more arbitrary. If something is absolutely necessary to do a job effectively, require it, when it's not, chock it up as a nice-to-have. We have enough people in the world with essentially amounts to "basket weaving degrees" who go out there to get an "education" to get that intangible "check in the block", which to me simply implies our system is so broken that we lean on intangible metrics to discriminate because we don't have a good comprehension of the actual KSAs that make a person effective in their jobs.

imported_WINTHORP1
12-19-2013, 01:36 AM
I liked that the Navy paid for all of my college. My biology class for example cost over $700.00. That was just one class! I can see how making Sailors pay for 25% of college can motivate them to do better, since they are paying for part of it, but on the flip side, if a junior Sailor is trying to take class, then my Bio class would cost him over $175.00. This could be a deterrent to taking classes.