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Shadowless
11-27-2013, 12:06 PM
How do you deal with the people in your shop who are either deployed or on a short tour without their family and expect you to stay at work for longer hours and take part in EVERY single activity just because they are stuck at a location and have no interest in going to the gym, meeting new people, exploring a country or just being left alone. I got into a huge argument when after working my shift I was asked what I was going to do after work because a co worker needed help with someone. I replied that I was going to do home work and go to the gym, I then got the verbal assault that I always leave work a minute after my relief comes in. I explained that I don't get a lunch break, and I don't get time for PT on shift like the non worker bees, and that physical fitness is part of the military and I should be allotted time to do so and that it was after my shift so I don't see anything wrong with this. Luckily my supervisor overheard and backed me up. My supervisor wanted to know why I was the one being asked to help 10 minutes before my shift ended and why ask me for help if there were 4 other non worker bees around doing nothing and they were still on shift for another 3-4 hours.

So my question is...how do you deal with situations like this where people with really nothing else to do want to stay at work longer or put themselves in the situation where more is asked or required of them and they expect you to follow their standards and life style choices.

Also, can someone force you to stay late after work and if they are allowed to where does the line draw? I realize not everyone knows the situation but my motivation to work hard at work is so I can leave work on time and I don't see anything wrong with that. There is also a double standard at my shop where education is focused on only when its convenient. For example, I mentioned I had a lot of school work to do and assignments due before the weekend and that the military is making education a requirement and I was told its not a requirement yet. However this very same individual constantly presses education and self improvement. So is education important only when this person sees fit or when its convenient for them?

I'm sorry for this long rant but every day I grow more resentful towards the military where a person who works hard gets punished and those who slack off and stay late are seen as the standard.

efmbman
11-27-2013, 12:13 PM
Regarding the education part: are you receiving TA?

Shadowless
11-27-2013, 12:18 PM
Regarding the education part: are you receiving TA?

Yeah I am receiving TA.

akruse
11-27-2013, 12:19 PM
Deal with it just how you did. Whats the big deal?

And yes it is legal. It could always be worse.

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/fort-drum-aviation-unit-released-from-seven-day-lockdown-amid-outcry-from-families-1.254694

efmbman
11-27-2013, 12:24 PM
Yeah I am receiving TA.

Good. I have had to use that to make the command understand the principle of TA in the past. When the command signs off on TA, they are giving their blessing to spend money on your education. By not allowing you the oportunity to excel in the course, they are contradicting their blessing and at that point should have a vested interest in your academic success. When I would tell my Sergeant Major / Colonel that a troop is not getting ample time to focus on schoolwork, they would always ask about TA. Then the phone would light up with the head-shed telling the junior commander to back off. Education is stressed by all branches as a discriminator for promotions - it makes no sense to sign off on TA to get you in a class and then not give you the chance to excel in the same class.

The other part is simply sad. Some folks are married to the service and expect everyone else to be as well. You can't pick your bosses.

71Fish
11-27-2013, 12:51 PM
A few possible suggestions.
- Have this person (I assume he/she is your supervisor or at least out ranks you) write a letter to the education office, signed by the commander stating you have to drop the course and waive paying back TA. The reason should be for duty requirements. 50/50 shot of this working or back firing depending on your commanders view of education. You have a good shot if the CC is prior enlisted.
- Explain to this person your superior time management skills. I've used this argument in the past and it worked.
- Come in an hour before this person. When you go to leave "on time" and they call you on it, say you've been there since 0600 and have, or whatever time.
- You're in Korea, it's only a year.
- Invite this person to the gym with you. Make it an "appointment", like an hour after shift change.

Rusty Jones
11-27-2013, 12:58 PM
Deal with it just how you did. Whats the big deal?

And yes it is legal. It could always be worse.

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/fort-drum-aviation-unit-released-from-seven-day-lockdown-amid-outcry-from-families-1.254694

It's legal, as long as it can be justified as is the case in the article; or to get work done.

But to simply keep someone late for punishment is considered unauthorized detention (Article 97). You have to be authorized to award NJPs, AND restricting someone from going home has to be a result of that NJP.

Don't get me wrong - they find ways around that all the time, and even if they make no effort to "get around" it and simply keep you there for punishment... you will lose that battle if you try to fight it. But, Article 97 prohibits it nonetheless. Even though it's not enforced.

Shadowless
11-27-2013, 12:59 PM
A few possible suggestions.
- Have this person (I assume he/she is your supervisor or at least out ranks you) write a letter to the education office, signed by the commander stating you have to drop the course and waive paying back TA. The reason should be for duty requirements. 50/50 shot of this working or back firing depending on your commanders view of education. You have a good shot if the CC is prior enlisted.
- Explain to this person your superior time management skills. I've used this argument in the past and it worked.
- Come in an hour before this person. When you go to leave "on time" and they call you on it, say you've been there since 0600 and have, or whatever time.
- You're in Korea, it's only a year.
- Invite this person to the gym with you. Make it an "appointment", like an hour after shift change.

I appreciate the suggestions.

Why should I have to drop the class? I am 4 classes away from my Masters degree, I think by now I know how to manage education.

Believe it or not I am a grown ass man and I know how to manage my time well enough to the point that when it comes time for me to leave work on time I leave work on time.

I am a shift worker so I am already in work 2 hours before the non worker bees show up.

Korea is great, which is why I like to leave work on time so I can enjoy a new country and culture, I am sorry that certain people want to stay after work or in their rooms all day because their family is not here. Sucks for you.

Again, I am a shift worker. I work different shifts and I don't think a non worker bee would enjoy going to the gym at 11pm at night or whatever time it is that day.

Sorry to sound like a smart ass, I appreciate your comments and suggestions.

71Fish
11-27-2013, 01:15 PM
I appreciate the suggestions.

Why should I have to drop the class? I am 4 classes away from my Masters degree, I think by now I know how to manage education.

Believe it or not I am a grown ass man and I know how to manage my time well enough to the point that when it comes time for me to leave work on time I leave work on time.

I am a shift worker so I am already in work 2 hours before the non worker bees show up.

Korea is great, which is why I like to leave work on time so I can enjoy a new country and culture, I am sorry that certain people want to stay after work or in their rooms all day because their family is not here. Sucks for you.

Again, I am a shift worker. I work different shifts and I don't think a non worker bee would enjoy going to the gym at 11pm at night or whatever time it is that day.

Sorry to sound like a smart ass, I appreciate your comments and suggestions.

The letter to drop the class is to make a point, not to actually drop a class.

If you don't like the suggestions you may get on a public forum, don't ask.
You're working on your Masters, you should be smart enough by now to figure this stuff out on your own.

AF Comm Guy
11-27-2013, 02:26 PM
"Sorry boss, can't stay. Gotta get to class. Bye!"

Easy as pie. Of course, I'm kind of a dick that way and don't let my bosses play their games.

When I was in Japan it was really sad to see the army guys regularly getting pulled out of class for work details. After a while, they would have to drop the classes. It was as if their leadership just didn't give a damn about the money being wasted. I have no idea if they were on any form of TA but being army E-2's and stuff I seriously doubt they were paying out of pocket, except for books. Imagine the air force trying that. Some pro-super walks in and says, "You, you and you, come with me. Time to rake leaves!" That would go over like a fart in church.

20+Years
11-27-2013, 02:47 PM
I will frequently remind anyone that work at the end of that day will still be waiting the next morning. I also usually throw up two fingers over my head as I'm walking out the door along with a, "Peace out, yo".

raustin0017
11-27-2013, 02:58 PM
Off-duty education...is just that. You get to do it off-duty. If a supervisor or anyone who out ranks you ask you to stay late, rake leaves, pick up butts, empty the trash, or to continue working...you do what is required. If you miss a class...so be it. 100% of the instructors understand...'duty comes 1st'.

Why do some forget....'YOU ARE IN THE MILITARY'.

Comm Guy. Sounds almost exactly what happened to one of my guys awhile back. Short tasking came up, did not have time to explain to SSgt why I needed him....I just did. I gave him orders on the time critical task and went to another area. Came back 45-minutes later...he was gone. Asked around..."he packed up and went to class". Really? The outcome: SSgt had to drop two classes, and earned himself an LOR. CC could have did Art 15...but I gave him a break.

20+Years
11-27-2013, 03:08 PM
Personally, I 'd say something about my CCC expects me to have a CCAF to be a triple threat so I better go get it done. He would understand if I was missing mission....

raustin0017
11-27-2013, 03:17 PM
Good to be back....

20+Years
11-27-2013, 03:24 PM
missed you :grouphug

jpeters
11-27-2013, 03:26 PM
I had an NCOIC that would play this little game. He would constantly volunteer for stuff or take in all this extra work and then dish it out to us to do...and then he would take the credit. So we would have to work well past our time to go home so he would look good. Finally we had enough and called him out on it in front of the Chief and CC and I'm not sure if anything was said to him, but we weren't asked to stay late anymore to work on anything.

Capt Alfredo
11-27-2013, 05:38 PM
Off-duty education...is just that. You get to do it off-duty. If a supervisor or anyone who out ranks you ask you to stay late, rake leaves, pick up butts, empty the trash, or to continue working...you do what is required. If you miss a class...so be it. 100% of the instructors understand...'duty comes 1st'.

Why do some forget....'YOU ARE IN THE MILITARY'.

Comm Guy. Sounds almost exactly what happened to one of my guys awhile back. Short tasking came up, did not have time to explain to SSgt why I needed him....I just did. I gave him orders on the time critical task and went to another area. Came back 45-minutes later...he was gone. Asked around..."he packed up and went to class". Really? The outcome: SSgt had to drop two classes, and earned himself an LOR. CC could have did Art 15...but I gave him a break.

I'm of two minds about this: if it was a one-time or rarely-occurring thing, I'd agree with raustin0017. If it happens frequently, or, more importantly to me, is due to mismanagement on behalf of the mid-level supervisor, I'd expect a senior NCO to step in and unf@ck the situation. Sure, there are sometimes going to be exigent circumstances where the mission needs to get done. However, if it's one of those cases where piss-poor planning on the part of someone else is (allegedly) constituting an (false) emergency for me, I gotta call BS. As a flight commander, if I saw this sort of thing happening more than once in a great while for no good reason, it wouldn't be the poor Airman who suffered, it would be the crappy time-manager who would be picking up butts or raking leaves.

OtisRNeedleman
11-27-2013, 06:00 PM
I'm of two minds about this: if it was a one-time or rarely-occurring thing, I'd agree with raustin0017. If it happens frequently, or, more importantly to me, is due to mismanagement on behalf of the mid-level supervisor, I'd expect a senior NCO to step in and unf@ck the situation. Sure, there are sometimes going to be exigent circumstances where the mission needs to get done. However, if it's one of those cases where piss-poor planning on the part of someone else is (allegedly) constituting an (false) emergency for me, I gotta call BS. As a flight commander, if I saw this sort of thing happening more than once in a great while for no good reason, it wouldn't be the poor Airman who suffered, it would be the crappy time-manager who would be picking up butts or raking leaves.

Yup. Daily duties serve today's AF and country. Education builds tomorrow's AF and country. Sometimes you have to stay late - mission has to be done. Teachers understand that, especially in schools that cater to military people. I was TDY constantly while finishing my Master's degree. Just took my books with me wherever I went and went to class when I was home. Never a problem. Heck, I wrote my final paper for the Master's degree in a hotel room in Virginia while TDY. But, as Capt (you a major now?) Alfredo says, if it's a case of consistently bad management on the part of the supervisor, I'd make damned sure that problem got fixed.

technomage1
11-27-2013, 06:10 PM
The problem is if you have good time management skills you're punished for it. It doesn't matter the volume of work you do. If Johnny dirtbag stays until 7 pm he's considered the harder worker regardless of the fact he spent the extra hours at the smoke pit playing angry birds on his phone. It's really hard to overcome that, even if you're doing twice the work he is.

I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying that's the way it is.

Sergeant eNYgma
11-27-2013, 06:14 PM
The problem is if you have good time management skills you're punished for it. It doesn't matter the volume of work you do. If Johnny dirtbag stays until 7 pm he's considered the harder worker regardless of the fact he spent the extra hours at the smoke pit playing angry birds on his phone. It's really hard to overcome that, even if you're doing twice the work he is.

I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying that's the way it is.

True and I don't understand it never did. I worked like a slave doing long hrs and all of that. THe guy who got the props came in little before work and bounced RIGHT at COB. After awhile I figured "To hell with this" I come in early only because it's a habit but unless World War 3 is starting or they need me for something I'm out at COB..."See you all tomorrow".

RetC141BFCC
11-27-2013, 07:02 PM
I did a Remote overseas and during the week I like to walk around to all my different sections check up on my people and just bullshit with them. Let me be the first to say this was a cake Job no Aircraft assigned more like station keepers for TDY units. So I spent a lot of time away from my desk. About twice a month I would come in on Saturdays for about four hours and get done the few hot projects that had to be done by Monday. The way I looked at it was I could get more done in 4 Hours then I could in 20 hours. No phone ringing off the hook nobody bothering me for anything. This was my decision it did not affect anybody else. My Chief asked me one time what was I doing there on a Saturday I told him the truth that If I did not Fu*K off so much during the week I would not have to be there. The thing is I really did not mind working on a Saturday. But if you cannot manange your time don't think I am going to give up my time for you

Shadowless
11-27-2013, 11:03 PM
I have no problem staying late if needed, but I do have a problem being a shift worker and being asked 15 mins before the end of my shift what I am doing after work and being open and honest and saying I am going to the gym and doing school work and being frowned at. I also have a problem when there are 4 other admin guys stilling literally around me doing nothing and being asked to help when those admin individuals are at work for another 3 hours and they can just as easy help this person out.

Juggs
11-28-2013, 12:42 AM
Man imagine a cop or a firefighter getting a call 5 minutes before their shift was over.

Imagine a fire dept. Gets a call, working structure fire. Takes time to get there, maybe 2 minutes could be 5-10. 1hr on scene, then 30 minutes overhaul and putting out hot spots. Then reloading the truck. That's another hr. Get back to the station and you're cleaning Equipement, refilling air bottles and filling out a run report. Next thing you know, it's 3 hrs passed shift change.

Ouch.


I'm just busting some balls here.

technomage1
11-28-2013, 03:32 AM
Off-duty education...is just that. You get to do it off-duty. If a supervisor or anyone who out ranks you ask you to stay late, rake leaves, pick up butts, empty the trash, or to continue working...you do what is required. If you miss a class...so be it. 100% of the instructors understand...'duty comes 1st'.

Why do some forget....'YOU ARE IN THE MILITARY'.

Comm Guy. Sounds almost exactly what happened to one of my guys awhile back. Short tasking came up, did not have time to explain to SSgt why I needed him....I just did. I gave him orders on the time critical task and went to another area. Came back 45-minutes later...he was gone. Asked around..."he packed up and went to class". Really? The outcome: SSgt had to drop two classes, and earned himself an LOR. CC could have did Art 15...but I gave him a break.

The only heartburn I have with taskings like this is they have to be legit...ie, not something the sup just forgot about or is creating an arbitrary deadline on; and also the troop needs to be made clearly aware of the nature of the taking. "I need this before you go home tonight". So many supervisors are unclear about what they want or the time frame they want it in. "It's kind of hot" means nothing to me. Do you want it before I go home? Do you want me to drop what I'm doing now or finish it, then work on the task? First thing in the morning? I need this at 0830 for a meeting tomorrow is clear, for example, and leaves the troop discretion as when to work on it (after class, come in early, etc).

I'm not saying you weren't clear, only that this is something I've run across in the past. If I'm not clear on a task now, especially if it's one that has been passed down to me through multiple layers, I have gotten to the point where I will ask the originator what they want and the time frame they need it in.

imported_blacksheep1208
11-28-2013, 06:08 AM
I appreciate the suggestions.

Why should I have to drop the class? I am 4 classes away from my Masters degree, I think by now I know how to manage education.

Believe it or not I am a grown ass man and I know how to manage my time well enough to the point that when it comes time for me to leave work on time I leave work on time.

I am a shift worker so I am already in work 2 hours before the non worker bees show up.

Korea is great, which is why I like to leave work on time so I can enjoy a new country and culture, I am sorry that certain people want to stay after work or in their rooms all day because their family is not here. Sucks for you.

Again, I am a shift worker. I work different shifts and I don't think a non worker bee would enjoy going to the gym at 11pm at night or whatever time it is that day.

Sorry to sound like a smart ass, I appreciate your comments and suggestions.

People that hate Korea and are butt-hurt about being away from their families or not getting the follow-on they want always try to make everyone else unhappy. I'm sick of dealing with people who don't get it. They stay on base 24/7, have no idea what is going on outside the base perimeter and never will. But they will do everything in their power to make you go to lame unit events so they can pretend everyone is friends. I have real friends that I've made and I don't need them, and this hurts their feel bads. It really does get old, they sit there with the I'm here on a 1 year remote mentality and think it has to suck. When all they are doing is trying to ruin it for the people that are here for more than 1 year and actually enjoy it here.

Shadowless
11-28-2013, 06:42 AM
People that hate Korea and are butt-hurt about being away from their families or not getting the follow-on they want always try to make everyone else unhappy. I'm sick of dealing with people who don't get it. They stay on base 24/7, have no idea what is going on outside the base perimeter and never will. But they will do everything in their power to make you go to lame unit events so they can pretend everyone is friends. I have real friends that I've made and I don't need them, and this hurts their feel bads. It really does get old, they sit there with the I'm here on a 1 year remote mentality and think it has to suck. When all they are doing is trying to ruin it for the people that are here for more than 1 year and actually enjoy it here.

Thank you, I couldn't have said it any better. People get mad at me because I don't go to every single going away, for heavens sake there is a going away every weekend and I don't want to go. I have friends that I actually like and rather spend my valuable free time with, so sue me.

grimreaper
12-05-2013, 04:16 AM
I'm of two minds about this: if it was a one-time or rarely-occurring thing, I'd agree with raustin0017. If it happens frequently, or, more importantly to me, is due to mismanagement on behalf of the mid-level supervisor, I'd expect a senior NCO to step in and unf@ck the situation. Sure, there are sometimes going to be exigent circumstances where the mission needs to get done. However, if it's one of those cases where piss-poor planning on the part of someone else is (allegedly) constituting an (false) emergency for me, I gotta call BS. As a flight commander, if I saw this sort of thing happening more than once in a great while for no good reason, it wouldn't be the poor Airman who suffered, it would be the crappy time-manager who would be picking up butts or raking leaves.

Bingo. If it's a time-critical task that just came down...fine. If you want me to stay late simply for the sake of staying late to do something that could be done tomorrow, or something that you sat on for however long and want to tell me about it at the 11th hour...then you and I are going to have a meeting with the Chief or the Commander and you can explain why I should have to repeatedly miss class and why I will be submitting the claim for the AF to have to eat the TA lost when it was completely avoidable. It could arguably be classified as a fraud, waste, abuse claim. Considering that supervisors now have to officially sign-off in AFVEC on classes now, they would have a tough time explaining to the Commander why they approved of the class, but now, can't seem to allow to you go.

raider8169
12-05-2013, 03:48 PM
You should sit down with the person and find out what there expectations are from you. You should explain your expectations to them as well. It sounds like you guys are not on the same page but you should always do squadron stuff if you can. The person could be trying to set you up for something as well. Hard to say without knowing the whole story.

jshiver15
12-05-2013, 07:08 PM
I really don't find the problem in the OP's inquiry. Some of y'all are busting his balls for someone else in his chain of command being inconsiderate or just being ineffective at time/resource management. Granted, I understand that there are late-notice taskers that have to be accomplished, but to make it a habit to bait and hook your guys at the last second when they have other obligations (yes, you can be in the military and have OTHER obligations, we're not drones) is just a douche move.

BRUWIN
12-08-2013, 03:13 AM
I'm sorry for this long rant but every day I grow more resentful towards the military where a person who works hard gets punished and those who slack off and stay late are seen as the standard.

Some would say if you can't beat them join them. However, do what you can to help and haul ass out of work before the next supervisor can see you leaving. There is a lot to be said for keeping a low profile.

AF Comm Guy
01-12-2014, 03:24 AM
Off-duty education...is just that. You get to do it off-duty. If a supervisor or anyone who out ranks you ask you to stay late, rake leaves, pick up butts, empty the trash, or to continue working...you do what is required. If you miss a class...so be it. 100% of the instructors understand...'duty comes 1st'.

Why do some forget....'YOU ARE IN THE MILITARY'.

Comm Guy. Sounds almost exactly what happened to one of my guys awhile back. Short tasking came up, did not have time to explain to SSgt why I needed him....I just did. I gave him orders on the time critical task and went to another area. Came back 45-minutes later...he was gone. Asked around..."he packed up and went to class". Really? The outcome: SSgt had to drop two classes, and earned himself an LOR. CC could have did Art 15...but I gave him a break.

Duty does come first but this was a Sergeant Major who was creating make work. Who the hell pulls people out of a class at 7pm to have them mow the grass in the dark? Who the hell does that three times a week? This guy was a colossal douche bag and I'm surprised the MPs didn't frag his ass at some point. CID would have ruled it a suicide and closed the case.