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Stalwart
10-30-2013, 12:56 PM
Nothing wrong with being pay grade terminal, especially as it applies to this specific thread. It was those who were comfortable with being terminal by choice, that made if very simple to "float up" those in a peer group that aspired for increased roles and responsibility. I never pushed boots, pursued off duty education, recruited, etc... but did quite well for myself and more importantly, my Sailors. Very easy to separate those who were doing extra curricular "stuff" simply for an eval bullet, verses those who were having a true impact on the Sailors and the mission. Actually spawns another discussion about CPO 365 and required all E-6's to participate - even those that wanted to retired as an E-6. But being just a "recruit" in this forum, I cannot start a new thread and can only chime in on those that are already started.


CPO 365

BURAWSKI
10-30-2013, 01:10 PM
CPO 365

The whole idea of CPO 365 is born out of the idea that their was something wrong with the way things were done before. Have these changes made things better? I think not.

UncaRastus
10-30-2013, 01:13 PM
Luckily, on leap year extension day, first class petty officers can kick back.

4CECMC
10-30-2013, 01:24 PM
Burawski - I don't believe CPO 365 has produced a better Chief or enhanced the process at all. I firmly believe that within the next couple of years, MCPON13/14 will bend to the pressure of the WR and eliminate "final night" in its entirety, and closely mirror what the other Services are doing. Not that the USA/USAF/USMC have gotten it totally wrong -- but as you know, there is a huge difference between a Navy Chief and a Army SFC. Being the Son of retired Soldier and a Son of my own who just pinned on E-8, (who fully understands the necessary and very much required steps in the transformation process), lots to be learned from our time honored tradition and the track record of our CPO forefathers. Tried, Tested, Initiated - Navy Chief/Navy Pride!!! And no, never submitted an CWO/LDO package:)!

4CECMC
10-30-2013, 01:27 PM
Nice thread Stalwart - thanks Shipmate!

JoeMorgue
10-30-2013, 01:35 PM
The whole idea of CPO 365 is born out of the idea that their was something wrong with the way things were done before. Have these changes made things better? I think not.


It does seem to be a solution that no one was asking for in search of a problem I don't remember anyone having.

Long term I do sorta agree with 4ECMC about one thing. The Blue Shirt / Chief division, as in having pretty much two completely separate communities of enlisted people, is probably not long for this world as we have it now. More and more commands, billets, duties, missions, and so forth are going to become Joint Service oriented and the other branches just don't have this concept.

When I was with the Army in Afghanistan I just could not explain "Chiefs" to the Army guys. I mean sure they have a concept of a senior enlisted, but the idea of there just being some magical point where the upper enlisted ranks becomes some separate organized community... no they didn't get it.

Rusty Jones
10-30-2013, 02:00 PM
The "separate community" thing is really what separates the two, and it's self-imposed by the Navy. Ironically, the duties and responsibilities of a Navy CPO and an Army SFC are pretty much the same - a division LCPO and a platoon sergeant are typically both in the paygrade of E7, and that's the first paygrade in both services that's billeted to report directly to an officer (DIVO in the Navy, platoon leader in the Army; both normally O1 or O2).

Stalwart
10-30-2013, 02:19 PM
Full disclosure: I am not a prior Chief, I am a prior USMC SNCO (GySgt).

That said, I don't know if CPO 365 is really the entire problem (again, it is a solution that few asked for but ...)

More I see a problem with many (not all) new Chiefs that I encounter today is a lack of effective leadership training / development prior to being selected for Chief. IMO (and I am probably inviting a lot of criticism of my opinion), Marine NCO's tend to be better leaders than petty officers, it is taught to them much earlier and while it is comparing apples to oranges, from a leadership perspective a Cpl (USMC) tends to be a better leader than a 3rd Class, a Sgt tends to be a better leader than a 2d Class. Once you get to SSgt (USMC) you kind of encounter this weird difference with the Navy in that a SSgt is not supposed to be the same thing as a 1st Class, a SSgt is really more like a Chief in many ways (1st boarded promotion in the USMC, is the senior unit leader for a platoon (Platoon Sergeant -- kind of like a LCPO) and at that point is a SNCO (some uniform changes etc.)) I will say that I think as a result of the differences in the way the USMC develops an enlisted leader (more gradually) the average SSgt hits the ground running faster than the average Chief. Every time I have had a Division or a Department, I have encouraged pushing more to the 2d Classes and 3rd Classes since this is how I think (old habit) I have my opinion that it works and in general it didn’t change the world (did have a couple success stories.)

I have a heck of a lot of respect for Chiefs (especially after observing a selection board) and the work they do and the role they have. When I start comparing Chiefs and SNCO's I don't see one as better than the other, each fulfills the same role in two different services with two different missions. I have known INCREDIBLE Chiefs, I have known average Chiefs, and I have known a couple that just didn't perform, the same with SNCO's. I had a rough start after commissioning with a few Chiefs (2 of my first 3 left the Navy without retirement -- one as a 1st Class) and as a result of that rocky start I distrusted Chiefs for a long time (my mistake – a few bad apples spoiled the bunch.) I learned how to shed the GySgt mentality and start becoming an officer as a result of a few really good Chief's I owe a lot of credit for the officer I turned into (not the best, but not the worst.) One of the most humbling moments to date was on my DDG was when the Chiefs invited me to lunch in the mess when I was checking out and gave me a plaque and one of their mugs.

For me, the absolute best thing a command can have is a good Goat Locker (benefits the crew, benefits the Wardroom) and the absolute worst thing a command can have is a bad Goat Locker.

BURAWSKI
10-30-2013, 10:20 PM
Unfortunately, a good Goat Locker is a thing of the past. The CPO Community does not function due to the removal of the fraternal aspect and making it just another pay grade, as well as removal of the initiation and replacing it with a formalized training program. Also, from what I've seen and experienced, the other problem is that the CMC's, Force/Fleet MCPO's and MCPON do not identify with the CPO Community. These positions actually operate outside, and independently of the CPO Community (a big reason for CPO 365). These positions have morphed into a community of their own. Why else would you see a CMC require a fellow CPO to make an appointment with their administrative assistant to be able to meet with them? (It was like that at the Naval Academy with a former CMC who used to work there). It's been that way for many years.


B. M. BURAWSKI
Chief Yeoman, USN (Ret.)

Vrake
10-31-2013, 01:37 AM
Unfortunately, a good Goat Locker is a thing of the past. The CPO Community does not function due to the removal of the fraternal aspect and making it just another pay grade, as well as removal of the initiation and replacing it with a formalized training program. Also, from what I've seen and experienced, the other problem is that the CMC's, Force/Fleet MCPO's and MCPON do not identify with the CPO Community. These positions actually operate outside, and independently of the CPO Community (a big reason for CPO 365). It's been that way for many years.


B. M. BURAWSKI
Chief Yeoman, USN (Ret.)


Well said!!

The star chambers fear of ending up in message traffic and the Navy turning into a corporation does not help.

4CECMC
10-31-2013, 05:44 AM
As one of those former flag level CMC's, I relied very heavily on my global CPO mess, never did I require a fellow CPO to schedule an appointment via my EA and I certainly never read my own press clippings. Whenever I visited a command, the very first thing I did was meet with the CPO's, over a cold beverage, discussed their issues/concerns and pushed them, (if genuine and I could not provide relief) to the beltway. Before I hopped on a jet, I knew well in advance if the Mess was working or not working... Any of the success I may have had were directly attributed to the success of my CPO mess and the Sailors therein; likewise, my failures were also tied to the Mess. I did not do independent duty OPS and Force decisions were an agreed upon course change provided to me by my Mess Mates. Surely there was dysfunctional CPO Messes and the leader of that group didn't last long if he/she did not change course and speed. The majority of the Navy's Leadership Mess, (MCPON Leadership Mess), is comprised of MC's that have the every same modus operandi. CPO 365 was not necessarily an idea dreamed up by a visionary MCPO, but largely and idea, (more of a recommendation if you know what I mean) presented to a MCPO by a very senior Flag Officer.