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Chief_KO
10-04-2013, 08:07 PM
Besides the D vs R political "urinary olympics" there are other potential points being made by/for/against the DoD with this shutdown. Given the overall climate here are some "innovative ideas" that could arise post-shutdown:

Closure of commissaries as a DoD function (taken over by WalMart or someone else). It's been talked about before...
Elimination or serious decrease in length of in-residence training (PME, tech training, etc).
Elimination or serious decrease in overseas pay benefits (deployed and home station) COLA, OHA, HDP, IDP, tax-free, etc.
Elimination or serious decrease in base support facilities & contracts (cleaning, lawn mowing, etc.)
Overhaul of AD retirement system (it is being studied as I type).
More self-help applications & actions pushed to "streamline operations".
Less PCSing (always comes up as a quick fix...anyone else remember the "Career Bachelor tours"?)

I think this shutdown is much more hostile and anti DoD than previous ones. We are the ones with our heads cleanly placed on the chopping block and there are not too many people jumping up and down in protest. The only thing hitting the news regarding the shutdown and the impact on the military is the status of the Academies' football games. WTF!!!!!!!!

Anyone have any "innovative ideas" to add to the list?

Bunch
10-04-2013, 08:16 PM
- Close some bases in Europe and here on the states.
- Put a final end to the USA World Police tour
- For Congress not to make us buy shit we don't need for the sake of keeping the pork coming to their states.

Bunch
10-04-2013, 08:19 PM
No more active duty bases, convert to all guard or reserve.

I could see this happening.

BOSS302
10-04-2013, 08:21 PM
Besides the D vs R political "urinary olympics" there are other potential points being made by/for/against the DoD with this shutdown. Given the overall climate here are some "innovative ideas" that could arise post-shutdown:

Closure of commissaries as a DoD function (taken over by WalMart or someone else). It's been talked about before...Do it stateside, keep them overseas
Elimination or serious decrease in length of in-residence training (PME, tech training, etc). If I can do university courses online, I can do PME online. Do it.
Elimination or serious decrease in overseas pay benefits (deployed and home station) COLA, OHA, HDP, IDP, tax-free, etc. Stop double OHA for mil-to-mil overseas. Stop HDP and IDP in areas where you don't need it. Don't touch my COLA. Next.
Elimination or serious decrease in base support facilities & contracts (cleaning, lawn mowing, etc.) Myself and my airmen can vacuum and clean toilets. We can weed the outside of the building. It can be done. Get rid of the cleaning contractors. Do it.
Overhaul of AD retirement system (it is being studied as I type). Don't touch the retirement of people who have given over a decade of service already. Grandfather those people in. Other than that, do it.
More self-help applications & actions pushed to "streamline operations". History teaches us that any attempts the USAF makes to streamline anything results in a nine-headed fire-breathing monster that is x10 worse than before.
Less PCSing (always comes up as a quick fix...anyone else remember the "Career Bachelor tours"?) Nope. Too much potential for cronyism.

I think this shutdown is much more hostile and anti DoD than previous ones. We are the ones with our heads cleanly placed on the chopping block and there are not too many people jumping up and down in protest. The only thing hitting the news regarding the shutdown and the impact on the military is the status of the Academies' football games. WTF!!!!!!!!

Anyone have any "innovative ideas" to add to the list?

.

RobotChicken
10-04-2013, 08:24 PM
:spy
No more active duty bases, convert to all guard or reserve.

"Every one know's what 'FEMA' stands for right? Don't want to get called out again for not knowing the 'new PC Webster dictionary' again; now that's cleared up 'FEMA' will take them over and house non-participating public for not enrolling in the 'Great Health Care plan' a place to think twice about not giving up those $$ to bail out 'our' 17 $ overdraft!"

Bunch
10-04-2013, 08:36 PM
While we are at it... Send Air Force back to Army... Split missions between Navy and Army

sandsjames
10-04-2013, 08:53 PM
.

The problem with this is people bitched that they didn't have enough manning to do stuff...now we decrease manning and you're talking about adding more tasks...honestly, I'm all for it...we always had enough time to sweep/mop...but the way I'd see it is that if we have enough time for those tasks that are contracted, we can have more personnel cuts...and that's not a good thing...

AFcynic
10-04-2013, 09:22 PM
1. Commissaries: You have to be able to keep the overseas locations open. Closing some stateside commissaries could be an option, if there is an abundance of shopping options. If Walmart and the commissary are a base's only options, you're handcuffing the service member. I refuse to shop at Walmart, but have no problem paying a little bit more to a company that values their workforce, i.e. Costco.

2. NCOA/SNCOA should have ended a long time ago. These courses have stopped being effective. Instead, they indoctrinate NCOs into the officer mindsets of "Do as I say, not as I do" and "I do what I want". Strong leaders become neutered after these courses, and tend to come back embracing leadership's flat-earth outlook. Of course, we'll never have a CMSAF with enough guts, foresight, or spine to either fix these courses, or right the enlisted ship.

3. CZTE should come to a complete stop. Military personnel are the first ones to call someone on government assistance a drain on society. However, when our pay/benefits are attacked, we whine to the heavens. Get over it, and suck it up. Keep paying your taxes, and help out your country. Quit crying about it, and don't be a hypocrite.

4. I'd be all for the idea of cutting grass, etc., if EVERYONE did it. I'd like to see Lt Col Crybaby and Col Specialpants out there with A1C Numbnuts. Unfortunately, we all know that the junior enlisted would be the only ones who got tasked for this.

5. Mark my words - the AD retirement system will come to an end w/in five years. There will be some grandfathering, but it'll be limited. It's going to mirror the ANG/AFRC retirement system where you get it at 60.

6. Less PCSing won't make a difference. Besides, if you've ever had a sh1tty assignment, you'd do anything to get out of there. Condemning a person to Cannon or Grand Forks is punishment enough.

None of it will happen, but it's good to have a goal. Oh well, time to get drunk and cry in the pantry with my pants off.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-04-2013, 09:22 PM
I agree about shutting down anything on base that isn't work related, except for gyms. That's it. No BX, commissary, shoppettes, or even clubs. That's right, stop harassing our Airman to join the worthless clubs. Shut them down!

Now with that said, DOD spending is only a fraction of total gov spending that can be cut. With entitlements alone taking up almost half of the total budget (using this term loosely), much should be reformed here as well.

BOSS302
10-04-2013, 09:42 PM
3. CZTE should come to a complete stop. Military personnel are the first ones to call someone on government assistance a drain on society. However, when our pay/benefits are attacked, we whine to the heavens. Get over it, and suck it up. Keep paying your taxes, and help out your country. Quit crying about it, and don't be a hypocrite.

I know you are simply trolling because nobody can be that stupid.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-04-2013, 09:43 PM
1. Commissaries: You have to be able to keep the overseas locations open. Closing some stateside commissaries could be an option, if there is an abundance of shopping options. If Walmart and the commissary are a base's only options, you're handcuffing the service member. I refuse to shop at Walmart, but have no problem paying a little bit more to a company that values their workforce, i.e. Costco.

2. NCOA/SNCOA should have ended a long time ago. These courses have stopped being effective. Instead, they indoctrinate NCOs into the officer mindsets of "Do as I say, not as I do" and "I do what I want". Strong leaders become neutered after these courses, and tend to come back embracing leadership's flat-earth outlook. Of course, we'll never have a CMSAF with enough guts, foresight, or spine to either fix these courses, or right the enlisted ship.

3. CZTE should come to a complete stop. Military personnel are the first ones to call someone on government assistance a drain on society. However, when our pay/benefits are attacked, we whine to the heavens. Get over it, and suck it up. Keep paying your taxes, and help out your country. Quit crying about it, and don't be a hypocrite.

4. I'd be all for the idea of cutting grass, etc., if EVERYONE did it. I'd like to see Lt Col Crybaby and Col Specialpants out there with A1C Numbnuts. Unfortunately, we all know that the junior enlisted would be the only ones who got tasked for this.

5. Mark my words - the AD retirement system will come to an end w/in five years. There will be some grandfathering, but it'll be limited. It's going to mirror the ANG/AFRC retirement system where you get it at 60.

6. Less PCSing won't make a difference. Besides, if you've ever had a sh1tty assignment, you'd do anything to get out of there. Condemning a person to Cannon or Grand Forks is punishment enough.

None of it will happen, but it's good to have a goal. Oh well, time to get drunk and cry in the pantry with my pants off.

I like #3. I spent 15 months in Turkey and bought myself a nice $2,000 watch with my HFP. The biggest threat to my health was the Turkish trots and the massage chick ripping the skin off my back.

Definitely true about #5. There was a study a few years ago that recommended partial grandfathering, where if you had 15 years in, then you'd get 5 years of 401K-like bennies and traditional retirement based on your 15 years. If you had 10 years, then the same system would apply. I see this kind of system as a serious consideration.

AFcynic
10-04-2013, 10:11 PM
Not trolling.

I certainly don't recall reading about WWII/Korean War vets getting CZTE, and they were called the greatest generation. It's about more than just our wallets. It would be like deploying to the UK, or Germany. You shouldn't be excited about deploying because it gets you out of paying taxes for a few months. Quit being selfish. Help out your nation. Your tax dollars do more than provide assistance to those less fortunate. They go to fund NASA, disease research, WIC, and help pay the bills. Would it suck to lose something that you've enjoyed before? Yep. Would you get over it? Yep. Would you be doing one of those core value things called "Service Before Self"? Yep.

You want to know what I did with my CZTE when I deployed? I bought dumb sh1t.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-04-2013, 10:35 PM
Not trolling.

I certainly don't recall reading about WWII/Korean War vets getting CZTE, and they were called the greatest generation. It's about more than just our wallets. It would be like deploying to the UK, or Germany. You shouldn't be excited about deploying because it gets you out of paying taxes for a few months. Quit being selfish. Help out your nation. Your tax dollars do more than provide assistance to those less fortunate. They go to fund NASA, disease research, WIC, and help pay the bills. Would it suck to lose something that you've enjoyed before? Yep. Would you get over it? Yep. Would you be doing one of those core value things called "Service Before Self"? Yep.

You want to know what I did with my CZTE when I deployed? I bought dumb sh1t.

Something that does bother me is the apparent willingness of the Obama Administration to keep looking for ways to slash DoD pay and bennies to save money, while remaining staunchly opposed to any cuts whatsoever to entitlements, which of course consume almost half of all gov revenue.

technomage1
10-04-2013, 11:38 PM
Not trolling.

I certainly don't recall reading about WWII/Korean War vets getting CZTE, and they were called the greatest generation. It's about more than just our wallets. It would be like deploying to the UK, or Germany. You shouldn't be excited about deploying because it gets you out of paying taxes for a few months. Quit being selfish. Help out your nation. Your tax dollars do more than provide assistance to those less fortunate. They go to fund NASA, disease research, WIC, and help pay the bills. Would it suck to lose something that you've enjoyed before? Yep. Would you get over it? Yep. Would you be doing one of those core value things called "Service Before Self"? Yep.

You want to know what I did with my CZTE when I deployed? I bought dumb sh1t.

In WWII, a lot of enlisted didn't pay taxes at all, be they in the US or in daily combat. The limit for income tax for men in military service was $1500 a year. A single buck private earned $420 a year. Check out his article from 1944 if you'd like to read more.

Http://usmm.org/barrons.html

BOSS302
10-04-2013, 11:43 PM
Not trolling.

I certainly don't recall reading about WWII/Korean War vets getting CZTE, and they were called the greatest generation. It's about more than just our wallets. It would be like deploying to the UK, or Germany. You shouldn't be excited about deploying because it gets you out of paying taxes for a few months. Quit being selfish. Help out your nation. Your tax dollars do more than provide assistance to those less fortunate. They go to fund NASA, disease research, WIC, and help pay the bills. Would it suck to lose something that you've enjoyed before? Yep. Would you get over it? Yep. Would you be doing one of those core value things called "Service Before Self"? Yep.

You want to know what I did with my CZTE when I deployed? I bought dumb sh1t.

Then single out what you are talking about and don't lump "all benefits" into it. Some benefits can go, yes. Some. Not all. Get a grip.

Do not give me the "Service Before Self" or "helping your nation" bullshit either. This is a professional military force. A lot of money was well-spent on training me to perform a certain job that I was deemed mentally/physically proficient enough to be trained in. More money has been spent through additional training - both specific to my AFSC and specific to my service as an airman. And I am paid a decent salary with decent benefits on-par with my experience and expertise.

Service Before Self comes through being the absolute best I can be at my job and not through cheapening my service by prostrating myself and begging for my paycheck to be siphoned off.

You need to do your nation a favor and shut the fuck up.

talon1load
10-05-2013, 12:44 AM
I'm so sick of people going on and on about how selfish military members are for not wanting to give up their pay and benefits. Why the hell would we? Do my part to help me country? What the hell do you think we've been doing? Are you retarded? I have family and financial responsibilities so, no I'm not willing to give up my pay. CZTE is an incentive for those who are going to put their lives in danger. And comparing military personnel who serve their country in a way that the vast majority of the country never will to people who do nothing except live off of the government is just stupid. If you hate the military that much or think so little of us then get out.

garhkal
10-05-2013, 04:38 AM
4. I'd be all for the idea of cutting grass, etc., if EVERYONE did it. I'd like to see Lt Col Crybaby and Col Specialpants out there with A1C Numbnuts. Unfortunately, we all know that the junior enlisted would be the only ones who got.

Agreed. That's why you have it done by those on restriction.


Something that does bother me is the apparent willingness of the Obama Administration to keep looking for ways to slash DoD pay and bennies to save money, while remaining staunchly opposed to any cuts whatsoever to entitlements, which of course consume almost half of all gov revenue.

Which i can't stand. WE WORK for our benefits, most of those on 'entitlements' dont work.. hence why they GET entitlements.

Bunch
10-05-2013, 05:18 AM
And what Walmart and other grocery chains who are the leading experts in substandard wages had to say when asked about running the commissaries?...


He thought about proposing that a private company be hired to run the stores. But when he called up several large national retailers, including Wal-Mart, Costco and three grocery chains, he got the same response. “We don’t want this,” he recalled being told. Too many employees, they said, and they would be unable to lure non-military customers onto access-controlled bases.

Two days later, an executive at Wal-Mart reached out to Spencer with a proposal: The massive retailer would provide active-duty troops, their spouses and retirees with a discount equivalent to the commissary’s prices on the same goods in its stores. The company would apply the discount by scanning a shopper’s military identification card at the cash register.

Link to the article (really good read): http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/commissary-plan-backlash-show-difficulty-of-cutting-military-personnel-spending/2013/06/01/15fb6c12-c922-11e2-9245-773c0123c027_story.html

Translation: "We want your business as long as we can keep paying substandard wages"

Be careful what you wish for or we might all end up working for pennies on the dollar.

Bunch
10-05-2013, 05:38 AM
The only thing that annoys me sometimes is military members who feel that we are entitled to all kinds of special treatment and benefits but then show an apathetic attitude to the situation of others. I sign up to be in the military, this is a privilege, and one that many people from one reason or another could not take part of even if they wanted to. Many of them decided to serve their country in another capacity. I have met many really smart people that could has made a killing in the private sector deciding to work for government in a non military capacity because they had the same desire to serve than us. To say in anyway that their service is less than ours is just appalling and uncalled for.

Many of our civilians partners are suffering right now and now is the moment for us to show empathy and solidarity with them. All this talk about "essential" or "non essential"... "Military deserves X,Y,Z but others don't" is just down right sickening at the present time. There is a time and a place for everything...

BOSS302
10-05-2013, 03:22 PM
The only thing that annoys me sometimes is military members who feel that we are entitled to all kinds of special treatment and benefits but then show an apathetic attitude to the situation of others. I sign up to be in the military, this is a privilege, and one that many people from one reason or another could not take part of even if they wanted to. Many of them decided to serve their country in another capacity. I have met many really smart people that could has made a killing in the private sector deciding to work for government in a non military capacity because they had the same desire to serve than us. To say in anyway that their service is less than ours is just appalling and uncalled for.

Many of our civilians partners are suffering right now and now is the moment for us to show empathy and solidarity with them. All this talk about "essential" or "non essential"... "Military deserves X,Y,Z but others don't" is just down right sickening at the present time. There is a time and a place for everything...

And who has said that thus far? All I've seen are a few morons who believe military pay and benefits should take yet another hit. It is sad that civilians are being furloughed and many more are having to work without pay. It is also sad that the usual first victim of budget chops is the DoD. For all the talk of DoD excess (which is somewhat true and can be culled), the DoD budget still remains only FOUR PERCENT of the U.S. GDP and has been falling for many years now.

Think outside of the box and come up with something better.

Mcjohn1118
10-05-2013, 05:44 PM
Bunch, I have some civilians that work for me that were "excepted" to furlough and others who were not. As you know, the excepted employees still have to work and get paid for that work once a budget resolution is made. However, the non-excepted employees have to stay home and not work. It looks as if the House just passed a back-pay resolution for all employees. I am not making any special claims of entitlement. After 20 years, I know what I am expected to do and I will be compensated for it. And I make that same expectation for the civilians that work for me. They are expected to work and get compensated for work. Their service is an important part of the entire military. My issue is those who aren't working but will now, it appears, still get compensated for work they are not doing. That is not right. In fact, if this new bill gets passed that gives back-pay, then all employees should report back to work. It's only fair to those working now and still waiting for a resolution for their pay. What is your opinion on this?

Sergeant eNYgma
10-09-2013, 01:09 PM
No more active duty bases, convert to all guard or reserve.

What would this even mean? Just less crap on the base in general?

Pullinteeth
10-09-2013, 01:52 PM
5. Mark my words - the AD retirement system will come to an end w/in five years. There will be some grandfathering, but it'll be limited. It's going to mirror the ANG/AFRC retirement system where you get it at 60.

Might want to do a bit more research on that one buck-o....


What would this even mean? Just less crap on the base in general?

It depends what base you are talking about. The Reserve and Guard have some locations that are almost as busy as an AD base and others that have virtually ziltch on base-think the difference between Homestead and Dobbins....

Pullinteeth
10-09-2013, 06:34 PM
Would mean no fulltime bases, just weekend duty, training, etc.
Mission is to fight wars not maintain full bases.

You are of course aware that there are anywhere from dozens to hundreds of full-timers on any given Reserve/Guard base correct?

AJBIGJ
10-09-2013, 11:29 PM
I threw out an idea, sure there's a million ways to pick it apart. There's also a way to see the ways it could save.
I do not believe guard or reserve bases are like the cities that some active bases have become. I believe
Minot has 12K people technically on the base including everyone. I simply am asking is the support
required to keep these huge bases open worth it or could there be savings simply going to a setup
closes to what the guard or reserve does. They have greatly increased activity downrange, so they
are not like second hand citizens. The drawdown numbers are going super low, look at the army,
so why not draw down active and increase guard and reserve, close some more bases and hope we
don't go into more wars. Not sure, but did you offer something on this thread about the potential
aftermath, I'd like to see your ideas, to thank you for having them. Good day.

Personally I actually am fond of the idea, and I do think it could be effectively implemented IF we also changed our national defense strategy as a whole. If we did what you say here but kept our functional OPTEMPO for all services this would be unsustainable. If we use my own service of the US Navy as an example, if you want to put an Aircraft Carrier to sea consistently it literally requires the 3K sailors to drive it, the additional 2K aviators to fly the planes, and the additional 10K military, civilians and contractors to make sure everything works right between deployments. Infrastructure probably (certainly) has some inefficiencies in their functional org charts but it might be a surprise how quickly things deteriorate if you were to suddenly take that function away,

AJBIGJ
10-10-2013, 03:37 AM
I guess I was thinking mainly AF...Some bases have thousands of people in base housing to maintain.
Theaters, Clubs, Food stores, gas stations, etc, all of which most bases have all of that off base. Why the need to
have that on base? Hell, most bases I know have outside the gate, tons of theatres, food stores, clubs, etc.
Not sure how many shore duty bases the Navy has. There are some of the biggest states without an active duty
AF base, such as New York, Minnesota, etc...Just throwing out ideas like I said...

We all certainly see it best from our appropriate frame of reference. The USAF has been notoriously good at working for the quality of life for its Airmen (despite the many complaints, you guys have it pretty decent, it's ingrained in your culture), not something the Navy exactly prides itself in, but it also begs to question of whether some of the expenditure is warranted when the time for budget slashing to occur. So what is necessary for that and what is simply excess? h=Hard for me to say certainly in that service, but looking at things broadly I'm not sure if that infrastructure is as non-essential as it would appear on the surface.

Pullinteeth
10-10-2013, 02:26 PM
I threw out an idea, sure there's a million ways to pick it apart. There's also a way to see the ways it could save.
Not sure, but did you offer something on this thread about the potential
aftermath, I'd like to see your ideas, to thank you for having them. Good day.

What is going to be the aftermath? IMO, nothing. By the time the elections roll around next year, most people will have forgotten this and it will continue to be business as usual.

Stalwart
10-10-2013, 02:32 PM
... not something the Navy exactly prides itself in, but it also begs to question of whether some of the expenditure is warranted when the time for budget slashing to occur.

It is getting better at shore stations. Some of the new single Sailor on base housing is really nice. On board ship, other than keeping it clean, sanitary and not decaying there is only so much you can do.

You do bring up a good question about what quality of life things could be considered "excess", not just in the way the Air Force maintains its quality of life standards ... but across DoD.

Pullinteeth
10-10-2013, 06:17 PM
And that is EXACTLY how they designed this "shutdown." They did their best to shield those that it would be political suicide to impact (military and the poor), and tried to make it APPEAR as painful as possible and screw as many others as they could and both parties pointed at the other party and said "see what they did? See how evil THEY are?" In order for it to invoke any REAL change, it would have to actually impact these large voting blocks. Have a shutdown stop handouts, military pay, and the government (for REAL not this bullshit pay people to keep people out of gov areas to make it SEEM worse than it is).... THEN real change would come about. This sabre rattling? Will do what it always does....nothing.

garhkal
10-10-2013, 09:21 PM
What get's me is even when obumma and co in the dems had control over everything they STILL could not pass a budget. But now the house has rep control, it's all their fault..

Rusty Jones
10-10-2013, 09:30 PM
What get's me is even when obumma and co in the dems had control over everything they STILL could not pass a budget. But now the house has rep control, it's all their fault..

Obama never had a "supermajority" - or one that was fillibuster proof. Congress was 257 Democrats to 178 Republicans when Obama took office. That's 59%. You need two-thirds in order to get anything done.

Pullinteeth
10-11-2013, 01:00 AM
Obama never had a "supermajority" - or one that was fillibuster proof. Congress was 257 Democrats to 178 Republicans when Obama took office. That's 59%. You need two-thirds in order to get anything done.

ummmm...no...you need a majority to get anything done... Not saying he had a supermajority or was fillibuster proof but your math just isn't true...they HAD control and could have passed pretty much anything...they passed Obamacare and subsequently lost the next election....

Rainmaker
10-11-2013, 04:28 AM
Obama never had a "supermajority" - or one that was fillibuster proof. Congress was 257 Democrats to 178 Republicans when Obama took office. That's 59%. You need two-thirds in order to get anything done.

Rainmaker recommend Rusty google the old schoolhouse rock videos that ran on Saturday morning cartoon commercial breaks. They're very informative and not in common core. NomeSayin.