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View Full Version : "SHUTDOWN, October 1, 2013, How does it Affect 'MTF Members in GS positions?"



RobotChicken
10-01-2013, 08:38 AM
:spy "I realize MANY of our members are in Civil Service positions, are you 'Furloughed' or 'dodged the bullet' and why?"

Sperry1989
10-01-2013, 09:58 AM
:spy "I realize MANY of our members are in Civil Service positions, are you 'Furloughed' or 'dodged the bullet' and why?"

I received a call last night instructing me to come to work for 4 hours on Tuesday to close things out and then leave. My position has been dubbed as non-essential so I will be placed on furlough.

sandsjames
10-01-2013, 12:13 PM
I received a call last night instructing me to come to work for 4 hours on Tuesday to close things out and then leave. My position has been dubbed as non-essential so I will be placed on furlough.

That blows. Sorry to hear it.

CYBERFX1024
10-01-2013, 01:26 PM
Pretty much same thing here. I am with the Dept. of Interior, US Geological Survey Agency. We had a agency wide video call yesterday detailing everything that might happen. But agency wide there are only 46 Tier 1 "essential" personnel. We were told also to come in for four hours today and finish up our projects then go home.
We were told we would receive the paycheck for the hours we worked last week.

Another bad thing though is that my Post 9/11 GI Bill BAH payment to me was shortened in half.

Stalwart
10-01-2013, 01:28 PM
I am Active Duty, my wife is a civilian GS. She was told this morning that she is essential (she didn't think she would be, so didn't pack her lunch or anything.)

ttribe
10-01-2013, 01:32 PM
You wouldn't know it was happening by looking at the parking lot today. We are all here. Our Mil bosses are in meetings trying to figure out where we go from here. Apparently we need to make changes to our time-cards to reflect furlough. Unfortunately, the only person that can enter them into the system is our secretary who is the only person told not to report today.

Rusty Jones
10-01-2013, 02:24 PM
I've been furloughed. Went in for about an hour, then went home. But that's all right. I've got my taxi reserved for me at noon, and I'll be on the road. I'll do that full-time until the furlough is over. And if we get back pay... then the furlough is a GOOD thing for me!

sandsjames
10-01-2013, 02:26 PM
I've been furloughed. Went in for about an hour, then went home. But that's all right. I've got my taxi reserved for me at noon, and I'll be on the road. I'll do that full-time until the furlough is over. And if we get back pay... then the furlough is a GOOD thing for me!

Glad you have something to get you by until it ends. Sorry for the rest of the people who don't have a backup. Hope it gets fixed soon.

Mcjohn1118
10-01-2013, 02:36 PM
The issue everyone seems to be having here is the time card issue in the new ATAAPS system. NOTE to DOD: When you instruct all personnel to ensure their time cards are certified in the system in a four-hour period, it may crash the system. This is why the system was designed to do certifications from Wednesday through Friday: to stagger them. It also appears the HR department here was caught a little off-guard with getting notices out. I truly feel bad for my civilian friends and co-workers who have to go through this. I was only a baby SrA back in 1995 when this occurred last and was over-seas in Bosnia. I didn't know anyone back then that this affected.

ttribe
10-01-2013, 02:39 PM
Glad you have something to get you by until it ends. Sorry for the rest of the people who don't have a backup. Hope it gets fixed soon.

Maybe I'll rob a taxi driver.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-01-2013, 05:36 PM
Went to work, found ATAAPS doesn't work, signed my furlough letter, went to the gym, then Starbucks, now at home. Furlough to me is a vacation.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-01-2013, 05:41 PM
You are lucky becuase you can always get a custome and work the streets of vegas :-) if times get tough.

I'm thinking about getting a magician starter kit.

wildman
10-01-2013, 06:03 PM
I hope ya all remember this come voting time.

Always,
Wildman

efmbman
10-01-2013, 06:11 PM
I dodged a bullet... but it was by design. I thought long and hard about retirement last year (several posts about it in the past). I remembered the post Desert Storm military, the cutbacks and the shutdown of 1996. I did not want to get caught up in that again. So when I retired I purposely avoided DOD because I figured that DOD would be a large target for budget cuts over the next 5 years at least. I am a VA employee, specifically Veterans Health Administration (VHA). VBA (Benefits) and the Cemetary folks are affected, but VHA is funded differently than other agencies so we are safe... for now. The debt ceiling may have consequences for my world, however.

ttribe
10-01-2013, 06:19 PM
I'm thinking about getting a magician starter kit.

Don't forget to verbally berate the tourists that want your picture but don't tip.

Call it Tak advice.:yell

kool-aid
10-01-2013, 07:19 PM
Still working. I was lucky enough to switch to the Veteran's Health Administration earlier this year and we are funded two-years at a time, and we still have funds for this upcoming year.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-01-2013, 08:48 PM
Don't forget to verbally berate the tourists that want your picture but don't tip.

Call it Tak advice.:yell

I'll carry one of those fancy retractable police bataans to crack non-tippers on their kneecaps. You ever smack your knee on a desk as you're sitting down? It will hurt like that, but much, much worse!

Class5Kayaker
10-01-2013, 09:23 PM
Commissaries closing. You would have thought it was the end of the world today at our commissary. I heard perishables were half off so I drove by at lunch....and kept on going. Surprised the SPs weren't out there in riot gear.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20131001/BENEFITS07/310010037/Shutdown-idle-stateside-military-commissaries

Rusty Jones
10-01-2013, 10:20 PM
Maybe I'll rob a taxi driver.

The most you'll ever get out of a smart driver from my company is $20.

Rusty Jones
10-01-2013, 10:22 PM
I hope ya all remember this come voting time.

Always,
Wildman

Sure will. 2014, baby. 2014.

AJBIGJ
10-01-2013, 10:27 PM
I hope ya all remember this come voting time.

Always,
Wildman
I'd be wholly surprised if the status quo changes whatsoever, I'd bet a great deal of resources that most in here blame the other guy's party for this shutdown.

sandsjames
10-01-2013, 10:47 PM
I'd be wholly surprised if the status quo changes whatsoever, I'd bet a great deal of resources that most in here blame the other guy's party for this shutdown.

From what I've seen, the traditional Republicans are distancing themselves from the far right in this case. And I'm glad to see when Obama called them out in today's conference, he pointed this fact out.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-01-2013, 11:35 PM
From what I've seen, the traditional Republicans are distancing themselves from the far right in this case. And I'm glad to see when Obama called them out in today's conference, he pointed this fact out.

Obama should show just one ounce of leadership by finding a compromise between both houses. Instead, he is playing the usual blame game and continuing to be one of the most devisive POTUS's we've had. I say, Thank God we have the Tea Party to help reign in those who want to borrow and spend until there's no tomorrow, while simultaneously destroying any incentive to start or grow a business in this country.

imnohero
10-01-2013, 11:44 PM
Thank God we have the Tea Party to help reign in those who want to borrow and spend until there's no tomorrow, while simultaneously destroying any incentive to start or grow a business in this country.

:pound

Rusty Jones
10-02-2013, 12:14 AM
FLAPS is the same guy advocating Fair Tax. He's the right wing extremist that fits all of the stereotypes attributed to conservatives.

Chief_KO
10-02-2013, 12:22 AM
Furloughed. Hit the commissary before leaving the base (it was a mad house). When commissaries re-open it may be a few days before they are fully restocked (different vendors have different start-up/restart schedules).
My prediction is two full days of bloviating and pontificating by both sides, coming together on Friday, work out a deal late Saturday (non news day), happy Sunday and we're back to work on Monday.
As for voting in 2014...I wish it would happen that way, but it won't. No one wants to ditch their Senator or Representative, it's always "the other guy". Plus AD voter turnout is less the 20%.

imnohero
10-02-2013, 12:40 AM
My prediction is two full days of bloviating and pontificating by both sides, coming together on Friday, work out a deal late Saturday (non news day), happy Sunday and we're back to work on Monday.

My personal sense is 2-3 weeks for a restart. If it goes past Holloween, it could easily go to January.

Bunch
10-02-2013, 01:07 AM
My personal sense is 2-3 weeks for a restart. If it goes past Holloween, it could easily go to January.

I think Boehner will lump the CR and the debt ceiling together. Dems will make some concessions on the spending front and GOP will drop the Obamacare issue for later. They will say the got something out of the shutdown and live to fight another day. Then the embarrassing ass kissing and self serving congratulatory messages from one side to the other like nothing has happened.

Bunch
10-02-2013, 01:15 AM
Obama should show just one ounce of leadership by finding a compromise between both houses. Instead, he is playing the usual blame game and continuing to be one of the most devisive POTUS's we've had. I say, Thank God we have the Tea Party to help reign in those who want to borrow and spend until there's no tomorrow, while simultaneously destroying any incentive to start or grow a business in this country.

If the Tea Party is so great and popular why they don't run as a third party? I have never met a Tea Partier that considers his/herself a republican or member of the GOP. What the Tea Party has done to the GOP is the biggest con job since Bernie Madoff.

Bunch
10-02-2013, 01:22 AM
From what I've seen, the traditional Republicans are distancing themselves from the far right in this case. And I'm glad to see when Obama called them out in today's conference, he pointed this fact out.

Is that good or bad?

I will like to see more moderates republicans fighting back against the Tea Party virus.

RS6405
10-02-2013, 01:33 AM
Ha, check out AFPC

AFPC http://www.afpc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123365358

-------------------------------

WWII veterans storm D.C. memorial closed by government shutdown

Stars and Stripes http://www.stripes.com/news/wwii-veterans-storm-d-c-memorial-closed-by-government-shutdown-1.244447

Get some!!!

--------------------------------

What services are affected when the US government shuts down

The Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/29/us-government-shutdown-services-affected

Loved the fact that the Honor Flight Vets were not going to be denied!

jpeters
10-02-2013, 03:54 AM
Went to work, found ATAAPS doesn't work, signed my furlough letter, went to the gym, then Starbucks, now at home. Furlough to me is a vacation.

They closed our gym. It will open back up on Thursday but only for a few hours for pt. But they are detailing people out to open/run it while it is open for those few hours. No weekends or any extra classes. Closed the Commassary too. I heard it was a mad house in there!

sandsjames
10-02-2013, 11:50 AM
Obama should show just one ounce of leadership by finding a compromise between both houses. Instead, he is playing the usual blame game and continuing to be one of the most devisive POTUS's we've had. I say, Thank God we have the Tea Party to help reign in those who want to borrow and spend until there's no tomorrow, while simultaneously destroying any incentive to start or grow a business in this country.

Listen, I am no Obama supporter, but this one is NOT on him. The reason nothing is being accomplished is because certain far right wingers are holding it hostage because of healthcare. It has nothing to do with the budget. It's ridiculous. The two items are completely separate things. They've voted on the healthcare, and it passed. They've challenged, and it passed. Now, like little children, they are saying "I'm taking my ball and going home unless you do what I want".

Again, I'm no Obama supporter, and I'm no Obamacare supporter, but what the far right is doing is wrong, and they need to stop.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 12:19 PM
Ha, check out AFPC

AFPC http://www.afpc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123365358

-------------------------------

WWII veterans storm D.C. memorial closed by government shutdown

Stars and Stripes http://www.stripes.com/news/wwii-veterans-storm-d-c-memorial-closed-by-government-shutdown-1.244447

Get some!!!

--------------------------------

Priceless, AFPC does a shitty job of keeping their website up-to-date and say nothing, gov shuts down? The reason we do a shitty job of updating the webiste is because of the gov shutdown.

Open air national monument? Better close it to show people how bad the shutdown is....oh and lets hire a bunch of rent-a-cops to keep people out.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-02-2013, 01:02 PM
FLAPS is the same guy advocating Fair Tax. He's the right wing extremist that fits all of the stereotypes attributed to conservatives.

I was waiting on the name calling to start. As for my views, I honestly believe this country is in a world of hurt for spending habits that started decades ago and continue unabated. If that view is extremist, then so be it. Let's be fair though, bankrupting the country with job killing policies is extreme too. As for FairTax, well...it's fair. Read the book FairTax in its entirety and we'll have a healthy, respectful debate. Or, you can do as I expect you'll do and continue the name calling, based of course on emotion versus any real perspective based on facts.

RetC141BFCC
10-02-2013, 01:23 PM
Maybe I'll rob a taxi driver.

I know you are only kidding because here in Hampton Roads Cabbys shoot back

AJBIGJ
10-02-2013, 01:30 PM
Listen, I am no Obama supporter, but this one is NOT on him. The reason nothing is being accomplished is because certain far right wingers are holding it hostage because of healthcare. It has nothing to do with the budget. It's ridiculous. The two items are completely separate things. They've voted on the healthcare, and it passed. They've challenged, and it passed. Now, like little children, they are saying "I'm taking my ball and going home unless you do what I want".

Again, I'm no Obama supporter, and I'm no Obamacare supporter, but what the far right is doing is wrong, and they need to stop.

Not sure if I agree with that. If anything is the issue it's that CR's have become the "New Federal Budget" If we'd actually go and pass a genuine annual budget we'd not be continuously put in this position, or at least we could penalize our elected representatives from working outside the Federal budget. I think forcing the issue and others through delaying a CR is a good wakeup call for this country. If people in Congress truly believe that they're doing the right thing by defunding the law and they are supported by their constituencies they are in fact doing their jobs. As are those who are voting to fund it and they are in fact supported by their constituencies. The problem with principled arguments is there is a strong chance an elected Congress will come to an impasse. It is unfortunate that we share in the consequences. It's a natural product of the system of government we've chosen, and it has happened 17 times before this in our history. The alternative is just to let Obama make the decisions for us, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to take that on if we really felt we'd be better off with that particular system of governing.

Chief Bosun
10-02-2013, 02:03 PM
My position is equivilant to a GS-11 near the top of the scale.

In my case, I am spared for now as I am at a working capital fund site (different pot of money from the folks at general fund sites). However, as this farce drags on, that could change once we scrape the bottom of the pot.

Yes, a lot of others are working at other locations without pay, but then, they are essential personnel, and should have know that they would be by the end of their interviews.

I am going to spread blame all the way around here - the Republicans for their inability to pick and choose their battles, resulting in them simply being considered part of the problem, not the solution, and the Democrats a couple of years ago when they held a majority in both houses of Congress and used that to ram through a piece of legislation that wasn't necessarily completely thought through, although I will agree it was badly needed to help folks that either can't get insurance due to preexisting conditions or who can't afford a lot of what was out there.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 02:15 PM
Listen, I am no Obama supporter, but this one is NOT on him. The reason nothing is being accomplished is because certain far right wingers are holding it hostage because of healthcare. It has nothing to do with the budget. It's ridiculous. The two items are completely separate things. They've voted on the healthcare, and it passed. They've challenged, and it passed. Now, like little children, they are saying "I'm taking my ball and going home unless you do what I want".

Again, I'm no Obama supporter, and I'm no Obamacare supporter, but what the far right is doing is wrong, and they need to stop.

You are both right and VERY VERY wrong. Obamacare has nothing to do with healthcare much less affordable care. It is an INSURANCE program. No this isn't Obama's FAULT per se. Does he share some blame? I would say yes but not all that much. To blame it all on the right is just as wrong as blaming it all on the left. Both share blame and in reality, the problem lies not with Obamacare or anything so trivial as much as it lies with the fact that we continue to let them (blue and red) use the budget as leverage to use in their petty arguments. The budget should have been DONE in April yet they are not held accountable to meet their suspenses so they don't.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-02-2013, 03:19 PM
I went on the ACA marketplace website,
I did not see any free plans offered.

Maybe working age military retirees will get kicked out of Tricare and put under the ACA?

SomeRandomGuy
10-02-2013, 03:39 PM
If 26 million couldn't afford insurance, how will
They be able to pay 100-300+ a month now?

How is this free socialized healthcare.

The part you are missing is that the ACA was supposed to expand Medicaid for those who make less than 138% of the Poverty line. The problem with that is the Supreme Courts ruled that states can opt out of that part. For the states that do not opt out here are numbers based on a family of two. The poverty line changes based on household size but here is a baseline.

The ACA expanded Medicaid to those who make up to 138% of the Federal poverty line and it offers subsidies in the form of tax credits to those who make less than 400% of the poverty line. The Federal poverty line in 2013 is $15,510 for a family of 2 (single mom, 1 child). So if these single mom's make less than $21,403.80 per year they get free healthcare. That same single mom could still make up to $62,040 and get tax subsidies to pay for healthcare that she buys on her own. So exactly who are we talking about that is not going to buy health insurance? If they make less than $21,403.80 they get it free. If they make more than that they get it for almost nothing. If they make more than $62,040 and their employer is not providing insurance they need to look for a new job. If someone works 40 hours per week 52 weeks per year that $21,403.80 number is someone who makes $10.29 an hour. Just so you know what group of people we are talking about. People making more than about $10 an hour are going to need to find their own insurance through the exchange. They do not even have to pay up front they can simply defer their tax credit and the governmnet will pay for it. They just have to validate the amount they make by filing a return at the end of the year.

CORNELIUSSEON
10-02-2013, 03:57 PM
:spy "I realize MANY of our members are in Civil Service positions, are you 'Furloughed' or 'dodged the bullet' and why?"

Here in New Jersey, 31,000 were sent home, of which 2,400 were from Picatinny Arsenal alone. Most of the rest from JB MDL. All of the Conus Commissaries are closed for the duration, which means that those who normally shop there just received a 30% hit in the monthly food bill since the Commissary discounts its prices by that amount.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 04:00 PM
:spy "I realize MANY of our members are in Civil Service positions, are you 'Furloughed' or 'dodged the bullet' and why?"

You are of course aware that DoD civilians were exempted correct? Then they were furloughed anyway....to make sure that the impact of the shutdown was felt....

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 04:01 PM
Here in New Jersey, 31,000 were sent home, of which 2,400 were from Picatinny Arsenal alone. Most of the rest from JB MDL. All of the Conus Commissaries are closed for the duration, which means that those who normally shop there just received a 30% hit in the monthly food bill since the Commissary discounts its prices by that amount.

No they don't...and even if they DID, it would be a 25% increase because the commissary charges you 5% tax....I mean surcharge. Even DECA doesn't make such an absurd claim;

Question
You claim that commissaries sell items at cost, and that I can save 30% or more by shopping in commissaries rather than in commercial stores, yet I can find items in commercial stores that are cheaper than in commissaries.
How can this be?

AnswerCommissaries are required by law to sell items at prices set only high enough to recover item cost, with no profit or overhead factored into item price, and our pricing procedures adhere rigorously to this legislative requirement.
You may find selected items at lower prices in commercial stores for several reasons.
One reason is that commercial stores often sell items as "loss leaders" at prices below their cost prices to attract customers who they hope will buy other high profit items during their shopping trip to get the low price "loss leaders."
Because commissaries are required by law to sell items at cost-neither higher nor lower – we can't offer "loss leaders."
Another reason is that commercial firms may buy into "deals" offered by suppliers that are not available to DeCA, or that DeCA does not buy into some "deals." Although our buyers negotiate vigorously to get the best possible price on every item sold in commissaries, there are times when our buyers cannot develop a good business case for accepting certain "deals" offered by suppliers.
However, although you may find selected items at lower prices in commercial stores, our price surveys provide convincing evidence that-if you shop regularly in a commissary for all or virtually all of your grocery needs--you will save 30 percent or more on your grocery bill versus what you would pay in a commercial store for the same array of items.

http://www.commissaries.com/documents/contact_deca/faq.cfm

CORNELIUSSEON
10-02-2013, 04:06 PM
Maybe working age military retirees will get kicked out of Tricare and put under the ACA?

As I am moving from the working age retiree status to the full retirement status, I can say that those of working age must either buy Tricare Prime, or else have another primary health insurance in order to get Tricare as the cleanup plan. I have my former Civilian employer's retiree health plan as my primary, with Tricare as my cleanup plan. I go on Medicare in December, and Medicare will become my primary, with my former Civilian Employer plan taking care of my Part B, and Tricare for life as my Cleanup plan.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 04:07 PM
I heard there is no system in place to verify income.

Would it have just been cheaper to pay the 26M folks care.

You are correct. And the answer was that they want to get people signed up as quickly as possible and not have to go through that kind of hassle. Understandable when the whole purpose is to make Obamacare as indespensible as possible as quickly as possible.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 04:10 PM
Listen, I am no Obama supporter, but this one is NOT on him. The reason nothing is being accomplished is because certain far right wingers are holding it hostage because of healthcare. It has nothing to do with the budget. It's ridiculous. The two items are completely separate things. They've voted on the healthcare, and it passed. They've challenged, and it passed. Now, like little children, they are saying "I'm taking my ball and going home unless you do what I want".

Again, I'm no Obama supporter, and I'm no Obamacare supporter, but what the far right is doing is wrong, and they need to stop.

In case you were curious, you CAN blame Obama for all the civil service folks that work for the DoD getting sent home... They were exempt from the furlough and Obama signed the bill making them exempt-then sent 'em all home anyway....

CORNELIUSSEON
10-02-2013, 04:12 PM
No they don't...and even if they DID, it would be a 25% increase because the commissary charges you 5% tax....I mean surcharge. Even DECA doesn't make such an absurd claim;

Question
You claim that commissaries sell items at cost, and that I can save 30% or more by shopping in commissaries rather than in commercial stores, yet I can find items in commercial stores that are cheaper than in commissaries.
How can this be?

AnswerCommissaries are required by law to sell items at prices set only high enough to recover item cost, with no profit or overhead factored into item price, and our pricing procedures adhere rigorously to this legislative requirement.
You may find selected items at lower prices in commercial stores for several reasons.
One reason is that commercial stores often sell items as "loss leaders" at prices below their cost prices to attract customers who they hope will buy other high profit items during their shopping trip to get the low price "loss leaders."
Because commissaries are required by law to sell items at cost-neither higher nor lower – we can't offer "loss leaders."
Another reason is that commercial firms may buy into "deals" offered by suppliers that are not available to DeCA, or that DeCA does not buy into some "deals." Although our buyers negotiate vigorously to get the best possible price on every item sold in commissaries, there are times when our buyers cannot develop a good business case for accepting certain "deals" offered by suppliers.
However, although you may find selected items at lower prices in commercial stores, our price surveys provide convincing evidence that-if you shop regularly in a commissary for all or virtually all of your grocery needs--you will save 30 percent or more on your grocery bill versus what you would pay in a commercial store for the same array of items.

http://www.commissaries.com/documents/contact_deca/faq.cfm

The 30% is on each item, while the 5% is on the total bill. What neither of us mentioned is that the discount does not cover items like Deli and items from foreign suppliers.

Chief Bosun
10-02-2013, 04:19 PM
You are of course aware that DoD civilians were exempted correct? Then they were furloughed anyway....to make sure that the impact of the shutdown was felt....

A lot of us were excepted due to the pot of money we draw from for operations. However, as I said before, when that pot runs low ...

I did see the article on the legislation POTUS signed regarding military pay. From what I see, it would sound like Defense has all the authority he needs to keep everyone paid and on the job, as you can argue that just about anyone working there supports the warrior. However, he is having the legal folks verify that is the case, as is prudent.

CORNELIUSSEON
10-02-2013, 04:19 PM
Is it true they are home not working, but will get back payed for these days not worked?

Technically, that is the plan, but it isn't guaranteed for all agencies. They may get credit for vacation or other forms of time off.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 04:20 PM
The 30% is on each item, while the 5% is on the total bill. What neither of us mentioned is that the discount does not cover items like Deli and items from foreign suppliers.




Still wrong. Even DECA doesn't say you save 30% on each item. They say you CAN save up to 30% on certian items...if someone doesn't have them cheaper....

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 04:23 PM
Is it true they are home not working, but will get back payed for these days not worked?

If it is like '95, then yes, they will get backpaid for being at home not working.


Technically, that is the plan, but it isn't guaranteed for all agencies. They may get credit for vacation or other forms of time off.

Wrong yet again. There is no plan. That is a proposal being floated but until there is a budget, they cannot even begin to draft the legislation to pay them.

Chief Bosun
10-02-2013, 04:25 PM
Technically, that is the plan, but it isn't guaranteed for all agencies. They may get credit for vacation or other forms of time off.

Concur, and based on what I hear from the Fourth Estate (taken with a shaker of salt) that may be a very hard sell.

Now, the issue is when you hit 10 days of furlough you are not credited with earning annual or sick leave in the pay period the 10th day falls in. In my case I have six days of furlough - four more and I lose 12 hours of leave (18 annual and 4 sick). Then the clock starts over. I have a solid leave balance, but for someone just starting out ...

I understand after around 180 days they will look at changing the service computation date. I would hope no one would accumulate that much furlough time that they revise that date.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 04:26 PM
A lot of us were excepted due to the pot of money we draw from for operations. However, as I said before, when that pot runs low ...

I did see the article on the legislation POTUS signed regarding military pay. From what I see, it would sound like Defense has all the authority he needs to keep everyone paid and on the job, as you can argue that just about anyone working there supports the warrior. However, he is having the legal folks verify that is the case, as is prudent.

It didn't say anything about "warriors." It said that it would continue to "pay the Armed Forces, as well as civilian and contractor personnel deemed to be "providing support" to the Armed Forces." And the DoD didn't say they were running it by legal, they said "Pentagon officials have indicated a willingness to examine the law to see if there's any wiggle room to bring more civilians back to work."

efmbman
10-02-2013, 04:27 PM
My personal sense is 2-3 weeks for a restart. If it goes past Holloween, it could easily go to January.

If this is not resolved by the end of this week I predict it will last 21 days. Isn't that the magic number for unemployment to kick it?

Chief Bosun
10-02-2013, 04:30 PM
It didn't say anything about "warriors." It said that it would continue to "pay the Armed Forces, as well as civilian and contractor personnel deemed to be "providing support" to the Armed Forces." And the DoD didn't say they were running it by legal, they said "Pentagon officials have indicated a willingness to examine the law to see if there's any wiggle room to bring more civilians back to work."

Which is what I said. I simply used that term instead of the term they used, or the term that is the current fashionable one to use to designate personnel in the armed forces.

Taken the way it reads, since I work at a command supporting the fleet, it is a no brainer I get paid. But then, I am no lawyer, sea or otherwise. Sorting that out is their job.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-02-2013, 04:59 PM
As I am moving from the working age retiree status to the full retirement status, I can say that those of working age must either buy Tricare Prime, or else have another primary health insurance in order to get Tricare as the cleanup plan. I have my former Civilian employer's retiree health plan as my primary, with Tricare as my cleanup plan. I go on Medicare in December, and Medicare will become my primary, with my former Civilian Employer plan taking care of my Part B, and Tricare for life as my Cleanup plan.

I'm working age and my primary insurance is Tricare Standard.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-02-2013, 05:00 PM
If this is not resolved by the end of this week I predict it will last 21 days. Isn't that the magic number for unemployment to kick it?

Not sure you can draw unemployment if you already earn a military pension.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
10-02-2013, 05:03 PM
I am not saying it's not a bad thing to be home getting paid or credit or ???
Could be worse to not be paid though and I am aware the people had
pay frozen for years now. The civilians I knew were pretty pissed before
all this, can't imagine how they feel now. People used to want to work
for govt for job security.

Yeah, I think that job security with gov employment is a thing of the past. I imagine it will only get worse.

sandsjames
10-02-2013, 05:12 PM
Read an interesting article if you bank with USAA. Not sure if it works for retiree's or just active duty. If we hit the debt ceiling, it's possible that we (retiree's) won't get paid. If you bank with USAA, they will give you an "interest free loan" each month that matches the amount of your recent paychecks until the government starts paying. Again, not sure if this is for retiree's or only active duty. Something to look more into.

ttribe
10-02-2013, 05:18 PM
Read an interesting article if you bank with USAA. Not sure if it works for retiree's or just active duty. If we hit the debt ceiling, it's possible that we (retiree's) won't get paid. If you bank with USAA, they will give you an "interest free loan" each month that matches the amount of your recent paychecks until the government starts paying. Again, not sure if this is for retiree's or only active duty. Something to look more into.

Thats good to know. I will look at my USAA account just in case this becomes necessary.
This just caught my eye with a credit union I bank with.

Scott Credit Union is offering help to its members who will not be paid because of the government shutdown.

We are offering a six month, 0% APR Government Shutdown Loan to members who are government employees and civil service and will be without pay during the Government shutdown.
We have developed a loan program that will help our members during this financial hardship:


Members can borrow up to 100% of their most recent two-week net pay
0% Annual Percentage Rate
No payments for 30 days
6 Month Loan Term

Members will need to have had their government payroll directly deposited into a Scott Credit Union account or provide a current paystub.
To qualify, you must be a current member of Scott Credit Union in good standing. Members must also be actively employed with the US government.
To apply call us at 1-800-888-4728 or stop by any of the Scott Credit Union branches. Click here (https://ww2.scu.org/branchesatms.php) for a list of branches.

SomeRandomGuy
10-02-2013, 05:24 PM
If this is not resolved by the end of this week I predict it will last 21 days. Isn't that the magic number for unemployment to kick it?

Actually, furloughed employees were eligible to file for unemployment on the very first day of the shutdown. The rules vary by state but in some places even being furlough for 1 day qualifies you for a small amount of unemployment. Here is a link to an article from the furloughs that happened earlier this year.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/29/news/economy/furlough-unemployment-benefits/index.html

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 05:37 PM
What is funny in a totally not funny way is that prior to 1980, this didn't happen. If Congress failed to pass the budget, no one noticed. Then in 1980 Jimmy Carter's Attorney Gerneral Ben Civiletti said that gov work without a budget was illegal. That was the birth of the use of the budget as a PR chip as well as leverage to get what you wanted...Twice since then the Democrats have shut the Government down, twice the Republicans have shut it down, and eight times, it has been both of 'em. Prior to 1980, it seems to have strictly been a Democratic tool and they used it most often...wait for it.... AGAINST THEIR OWN PRESIDENT.....(Carter).

So I guess is a warped way you could say this is ALL the Democrats fault because it was the Attorney General of a Demoratic President that ruled in this fashion to stop the Democrats from fucking with the Democratic President....

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 05:48 PM
This is ironic:

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act consists of a combination of measures to control healthcare costs, and an expansion of coverage through public and private insurance: broader Medicaid eligibility and Medicare coverage, and subsidized, regulated private insurance. An individual mandate coupled with subsidies for private insurance as a means for universal healthcare was considered the best way to win the support of the Senate because it had been included in prior bipartisan reform proposals. The idea goes back as far as 1989, when it was initially proposed by the conservative Heritage Foundation as an alternative to single-payer health care. It was championed by many Republican politicians as a market-based approach to healthcare reform on the basis of individual responsibility

Apparently my reading skills are sub-par because insurance does NOTHING to reduce the cost of healthcare. It simply relates to who pays for it. Does anyone seriously believe that the Insurance companies are going to eat the loss? Hell no, the cost will go to those that pay the premiums. The more people that are on Obamacare, the more the payers will pay and the more it will cost the Fed (read taxpayers).

I have NO problem with subsidized universal healthcare but unless we actually do something to address the REAL problem (healthcare costs), we are just bashing our head against a brick wall and asking for new shoes because the ones we are wearing are bloody-yeah new shoes will look nice but your brains are still getting all over the wall....

wildman
10-02-2013, 06:09 PM
The tea party faction of the Republican party will in my humble opinion be it's downfall. The Republicans (again in my humble opinion) are coming across as nothing more than spoiled brats throwing temper tantrums over their loss on Obama care. If they have a better plan or a way to make it better let them spit it out or shut the fuck up, pass the budget and do their damn job. Enough of their bull shit.

Always.
Wildman
A former Republican since the days of Barry Goldwater, now an Independent.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 06:50 PM
Only thing hated more than congress may be insurance.
Hell, I slid into a curb in a blizzard here and am still
paying increased insurance from that incident a few years back.
Insurance may well be the antichrist or his helper technology,
the unabomber knew all about which I speak.
(spews conspiracy jargon, then hides behind sofa) :behindsofa

I don't disagree that insurance is a pyramid scheme but in this case, they aren't the problem OR the solution. Let's oversimplify just for a second. Say you sprain your ankle and go to the doctor. Currently you will pay what $2,000-8,000 for the hour tops that you will actually be seeing the doctor (ok PA)? Even if you paid $100 an hour to the Doc (averages to over $200,000 a year), say $50 and hour for a nurse as well, $100 for associated personnel (admin, support, radiology, etc-might sound low but there are dozens of patients an hour), say $200 for overhead, $20 for the X-ray (which really costs less than $10), hell it's only money so lets just toss another $300 for shits and giggles. That means you SHOULD pay around $770... And they think insurance is the problem?

sandsjames
10-02-2013, 06:58 PM
I don't disagree that insurance is a pyramid scheme but in this case, they aren't the problem OR the solution. Let's oversimplify just for a second. Say you sprain your ankle and go to the doctor. Currently you will pay what $2,000-8,000 for the hour tops that you will actually be seeing the doctor (ok PA)? Even if you paid $100 an hour to the Doc (averages to over $200,000 a year), say $50 and hour for a nurse as well, $100 for associated personnel (admin, support, radiology, etc-might sound low but there are dozens of patients an hour), say $200 for overhead, $20 for the X-ray (which really costs less than $10), hell it's only money so lets just toss another $300 for shits and giggles. That means you SHOULD pay around $770... And they think insurance is the problem?

Insurance companies are definitely PART of the problem. The other part is the lawsuits. The insurance for doctors/hospitals is OUTRAGEOUS, causing them to charge more than necessary in case they have to pay someone $10M for an honest, simple mistake.

CORNELIUSSEON
10-02-2013, 07:02 PM
I'm working age and my primary insurance is Tricare Standard.

I will assume that you were Regular Air Force, and retired under Regular Air Force rules. I retired from the Army Guard, and had to wait for 60 in the Retired Reserve.

When members of the Guard retire and gain their Retirement benefits at Age 60, they still are NOT offered Tricare Standard, but are offered Tricare Prime if they don't already have primary insurance to hang their Tricare For Life on. I wouldn't have qualified for Tricare at all unless I either took Prime, or else hung Tricare For Life on my Civilian Health Insurance. Likewise, now that I am reaching 65, if I want to hang on to my Tricare For Life, I had to signup for BOTH Medicare Parts A & B (my former Civilian Employer will reimburse for Part B), and Tricare For Life will pay for what A&B won't cover.

sandsjames
10-02-2013, 07:04 PM
This may be a stupid question, but why wouldn't you take Prime over Standard if available?

Vrake
10-02-2013, 07:07 PM
This may be a stupid question, but why wouldn't you take Prime over Standard if available?

I think the biggest reason is if you live within "X" amount of miles from a base or place you can get care.

sandsjames
10-02-2013, 07:09 PM
I think the biggest reason is if you live within "X" amount of miles from a base or place you can get care.

Right, that's why you'd go with Prime. Other's have made it sound like they are upset they HAD to take Prime and couldn't take Standard. Not sure why one would be.

CORNELIUSSEON
10-02-2013, 07:20 PM
I don't disagree that insurance is a pyramid scheme but in this case, they aren't the problem OR the solution. Let's oversimplify just for a second. Say you sprain your ankle and go to the doctor. Currently you will pay what $2,000-8,000 for the hour tops that you will actually be seeing the doctor (ok PA)? Even if you paid $100 an hour to the Doc (averages to over $200,000 a year), say $50 and hour for a nurse as well, $100 for associated personnel (admin, support, radiology, etc-might sound low but there are dozens of patients an hour), say $200 for overhead, $20 for the X-ray (which really costs less than $10), hell it's only money so lets just toss another $300 for shits and giggles. That means you SHOULD pay around $770... And they think insurance is the problem?

Actually, the Chinese have what is supposed to be the best solution. When you take on a Doctor, you pay him regularly while you are HEALTHY. Those payments continue for as long as you remain healthy. Should you become sick, the payments stop, and he MUST bring you back to good health as quickly as he can, at his expense, if he wants to ever get more money from you. The upshot is that if you meet a rich doctor, then you know he is one who is good at keeping his patients healthy. If the doctor is poor, he will remain poor since it is obvious he can't keep his patients healthy.

Pullinteeth
10-02-2013, 07:43 PM
Actually, the Chinese have what is supposed to be the best solution. When you take on a Doctor, you pay him regularly while you are HEALTHY. Those payments continue for as long as you remain healthy. Should you become sick, the payments stop, and he MUST bring you back to good health as quickly as he can, at his expense, if he wants to ever get more money from you. The upshot is that if you meet a rich doctor, then you know he is one who is good at keeping his patients healthy. If the doctor is poor, he will remain poor since it is obvious he can't keep his patients healthy.

Friggin awesome!

Greg
10-02-2013, 07:46 PM
If they did that here, they'd be a run on bodybags.

Pinewood coffins. They're bio-degradable.

SomeRandomGuy
10-03-2013, 01:05 PM
What is funny in a totally not funny way is that prior to 1980, this didn't happen. If Congress failed to pass the budget, no one noticed. Then in 1980 Jimmy Carter's Attorney Gerneral Ben Civiletti said that gov work without a budget was illegal. That was the birth of the use of the budget as a PR chip as well as leverage to get what you wanted...Twice since then the Democrats have shut the Government down, twice the Republicans have shut it down, and eight times, it has been both of 'em. Prior to 1980, it seems to have strictly been a Democratic tool and they used it most often...wait for it.... AGAINST THEIR OWN PRESIDENT.....(Carter).

So I guess is a warped way you could say this is ALL the Democrats fault because it was the Attorney General of a Demoratic President that ruled in this fashion to stop the Democrats from fucking with the Democratic President....

According to his wikipedia page Ben Civiletti is now a partner at Venable LLP in Washington D.C. A few years ago he set a record as the first attorney to ever charge $1000 per hour. This means that if you had a one minute conversation with him it would cost you $16.67.

sandsjames
10-03-2013, 01:56 PM
Actually, the Chinese have what is supposed to be the best solution. When you take on a Doctor, you pay him regularly while you are HEALTHY. Those payments continue for as long as you remain healthy. Should you become sick, the payments stop, and he MUST bring you back to good health as quickly as he can, at his expense, if he wants to ever get more money from you. The upshot is that if you meet a rich doctor, then you know he is one who is good at keeping his patients healthy. If the doctor is poor, he will remain poor since it is obvious he can't keep his patients healthy.

Yeah, awesome solution. Then, what we do, is we tell people at a young age that they will be doctors and have no other choice. Oh, and now the rich doctors keep getting richer. The poor ones, who probably are taking care of the poorest patients, remain poor. The poor patients continue to die, and we get rid of all low income. Awesome plan.

It's almost as good as the U.S. giving the top schools the most money while giving almost nothing to the lowest performing, the ones who need it most. Yeah, let's do what China does.

Mcjohn1118
10-03-2013, 03:18 PM
If it is like '95, then yes, they will get backpaid for being at home not working.



Wrong yet again. There is no plan. That is a proposal being floated but until there is a budget, they cannot even begin to draft the legislation to pay them.

So, here's my personal quandary and I'll be the first to admit I'm on the fence about this. We have employees in my squadron that were excepted. So there are working as GS employees right now without pay. Once Congress and The President gets off their collective asses and passes a resolution, these excepted employees are supposed to get paid for their work they are providing. If they did not get paid, that would be illegal. However, the non-excepted employees; those on furlough who are at home...Congress could pass a resolution like in 1996 that gives them back-pay. To me that seems wrong...paying people who aren't performing and sitting at home and paying people who were working. It seems the excepted employees get the shaft. I look at it like this and it may be apples and oranges but a private company may lay-off a person due to a slow-down. However, in a few weeks that person is offered their position back and they accept. The person does not get back pay for those weeks they were laid off. They may have collected some union payments or unemployment, but the company doesn't give them back pay so why should the US Government? In both cases, it's not the employees fault they were laid off. And another issue I see...these furloughed employees are able to collect unemployment while not working. If Congress does give them back-pay, then I think they should give the unemployment back but there is no way to track that. Again, it seems as if the excepted employee gets the shaft because the stay at home furloughed employee may get to double dip. What do you all think?

sandsjames
10-03-2013, 03:29 PM
So, here's my personal quandary and I'll be the first to admit I'm on the fence about this. We have employees in my squadron that were excepted. So there are working as GS employees right now without pay. Once Congress and The President gets off their collective asses and passes a resolution, these excepted employees are supposed to get paid for their work they are providing. If they did not get paid, that would be illegal. However, the non-excepted employees; those on furlough who are at home...Congress could pass a resolution like in 1996 that gives them back-pay. To me that seems wrong...paying people who aren't performing and sitting at home and paying people who were working. It seems the excepted employees get the shaft. I look at it like this and it may be apples and oranges but a private company may lay-off a person due to a slow-down. However, in a few weeks that person is offered their position back and they accept. The person does not get back pay for those weeks they were laid off. They may have collected some union payments or unemployment, but the company doesn't give them back pay so why should the US Government? In both cases, it's not the employees fault they were laid off. And another issue I see...these furloughed employees are able to collect unemployment while not working. If Congress does give them back-pay, then I think they should give the unemployment back but there is no way to track that. Again, it seems as if the excepted employee gets the shaft because the stay at home furloughed employee may get to double dip. What do you all think?

I think people need not worry about what others are getting. The government is not a private company. It is the fault of the government (for the last 5 years) that nobody is getting paid right now so the government needs to take the hit.

If you want to talk about fair, if they plan on back paying employees then they should all still be at work. If employees choose not to come in, then it's on them. And while they aren't getting paid, whether working or not, they should be able to file for unemployment. They do need to eat, and are still giving a service to the government.

SomeRandomGuy
10-03-2013, 03:35 PM
So, here's my personal quandary and I'll be the first to admit I'm on the fence about this. We have employees in my squadron that were excepted. So there are working as GS employees right now without pay. Once Congress and The President gets off their collective asses and passes a resolution, these excepted employees are supposed to get paid for their work they are providing. If they did not get paid, that would be illegal. However, the non-excepted employees; those on furlough who are at home...Congress could pass a resolution like in 1996 that gives them back-pay. To me that seems wrong...paying people who aren't performing and sitting at home and paying people who were working. It seems the excepted employees get the shaft. I look at it like this and it may be apples and oranges but a private company may lay-off a person due to a slow-down. However, in a few weeks that person is offered their position back and they accept. The person does not get back pay for those weeks they were laid off. They may have collected some union payments or unemployment, but the company doesn't give them back pay so why should the US Government? In both cases, it's not the employees fault they were laid off. And another issue I see...these furloughed employees are able to collect unemployment while not working. If Congress does give them back-pay, then I think they should give the unemployment back but there is no way to track that. Again, it seems as if the excepted employee gets the shaft because the stay at home furloughed employee may get to double dip. What do you all think?

My problem with this is that Government employees are considered salalry employees as opposed to hourly employees. Their employment contract states they get a certain amount per year as opposed to per hour. This is of course contingent on them working the equivalent of a full time schedule. With that being said if they are asked not to report for reasons outside of their control I think they should still get paid. I also still think they should all report to work anyways. How hard would it be for congress to treat them the same as the military and say that they should continue to work and will be paid once money becomes avaliable? That is exactly what the excepted employees are doing anyways.

ttribe
10-03-2013, 04:20 PM
My problem with this is that Government employees are considered salalry employees as opposed to hourly employees. Their employment contract states they get a certain amount per year as opposed to per hour. This is of course contingent on them working the equivalent of a full time schedule. With that being said if they are asked not to report for reasons outside of their control I think they should still get paid. I also still think they should all report to work anyways. How hard would it be for congress to treat them the same as the military and say that they should continue to work and will be paid once money becomes avaliable? That is exactly what the excepted employees are doing anyways.

I am on day three of work without pay(possibly). Our secretary was the only person not Excepted. When this thing clears up and she gets back she is the one who is going to have the big bucket crap to fix, in handling our timecards and such. I honestly feel for her. She may be off but she is probably the one who is getting the most behind. We have a 3 striper that sits next to her and is supposedly handling her business. He just got back from his X hours of PT and looks like he is about to crawl under his desk and suck on his thumb.

One bright spot in this. We went to the local grocery for produce. They kick the crap out of the commissary's sad ass green straight to brown bananas.