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Shaken1976
09-26-2013, 09:13 PM
Apparently our FAC is under investigation for the number of failures they have had over the last year. Not sure what this all means. But they are looking at training for one. Apparently also a huge amount of inconsistencies. I guess there were enough complaints. I know from one test to another I lost a lot of weight and my waist went up. Then kept losing and the next test my waist was down. Another individual I know went to test and it began raining so he retested three days later and was taped 2 inches bigger.

What I would like to know...is what happens to all the tests that they find issues with?

SomeRandomGuy
09-26-2013, 09:22 PM
Apparently our FAC is under investigation for the number of failures they have had over the last year. Not sure what this all means. But they are looking at training for one. Apparently also a huge amount of inconsistencies. I guess there were enough complaints. I know from one test to another I lost a lot of weight and my waist went up. Then kept losing and the next test my waist was down. Another individual I know went to test and it began raining so he retested three days later and was taped 2 inches bigger.

What I would like to know...is what happens to all the tests that they find issues with?

How could they find issues with any tests? Does the investigation committe have a time machine where they can go back and re-measure the people at the point where they failed? You did cite two examples where measurements varied but are those examples actually documented? In the case of your friend who's test was rained out. Does the the FAC save copies of unofficial tests? I would think they do not. My guess is that once a test is entered into AFFMS (or whatever the acronym is) that the paper copy is trashed shortly after. Also cancelled tests would not be official anyways. In your case what exactly could the investigation find? You are saying that you lost weight but your waist went up. This is actually possible. If You were a beer drinker (not saying you are) you could lose weight but get kind of a beer gut. If you then quit drinking the gut might go away. Im just saying I do not see how an investigation could do anything to substantiate past complaints. The only thing the investigation could do is have the FAC tape various people and see how the measurements compared. I'm not so sure that validates anyones past claim or at least it is not enough validation to get past tests thrown out.

BOSS302
09-26-2013, 09:48 PM
This sounds like someone is merely looking into the FAC and their processes, but the word of mouth through the best friend's sister in law of SSgt Johnny's wife's babysitter has said "That fitness place at the gym is, like, totally under investigation by OSI or something! I heard about it today at the Key Spouse's meeting...OMG!"

Shaken1976
09-27-2013, 12:47 PM
This sounds like someone is merely looking into the FAC and their processes, but the word of mouth through the best friend's sister in law of SSgt Johnny's wife's babysitter has said "That fitness place at the gym is, like, totally under investigation by OSI or something! I heard about it today at the Key Spouse's meeting...OMG!"

Actually the fact that they are under investigation came from the Shirt and CC in the form of ensuring we have someone with us when we test. Also the fact that anything from the last year is out from a legal standpoint came at the same briefing. So I figure it is a reliable source. Not sure about the throwing tests out.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-27-2013, 01:16 PM
Actually the fact that they are under investigation came from the Shirt and CC in the form of ensuring we have someone with us when we test. Also the fact that anything from the last year is out from a legal standpoint came at the same briefing. So I figure it is a reliable source. Not sure about the throwing tests out.

I'm sure the FAC was legit (maybe the investigation will uncover that more should be failing?)...we have the same complaints at our base when people fail. We mock test them to see, and guess what. They still fail the mock test. Why does everyone think that everyone should pass this test when clearly there are people who do not prepare? I think FACs that have an 85% or better pass rate should be investigated.

Shaken1976
09-27-2013, 01:24 PM
I'm sure the FAC was legit...we have the same complaints at our base when people fail. We mock test them to see, and guess what. They still fail the mock test. Why does everyone think that everyone should pass this test when clearly there are people who do not prepare? I think FACs that have an 85% or better pass rate should be investigated.

I know for a fact there was at least some shady stuff going on. Not sure that it still is. There were a few people who got in trouble for testing people they knew (buddy system). The fail rate was pretty high on waist measurements apparently. Talking to a friend last night I was told that she was called in and questioned about an experience she had. I know some issues were found with training.

I don't know what the outcome will be...but I know for a fact that it is under investigation. I also know that legal is not processing any demotions/discharges because of fitness right now. Seems there has to be something there. An airman in my squadron had his discharge stopped. He was supposed to be out this month.

sandsjames
09-27-2013, 01:35 PM
How could they find issues with any tests? Does the investigation committe have a time machine where they can go back and re-measure the people at the point where they failed? You did cite two examples where measurements varied but are those examples actually documented? In the case of your friend who's test was rained out. Does the the FAC save copies of unofficial tests? I would think they do not. My guess is that once a test is entered into AFFMS (or whatever the acronym is) that the paper copy is trashed shortly after. Also cancelled tests would not be official anyways. In your case what exactly could the investigation find? You are saying that you lost weight but your waist went up. This is actually possible. If You were a beer drinker (not saying you are) you could lose weight but get kind of a beer gut. If you then quit drinking the gut might go away. Im just saying I do not see how an investigation could do anything to substantiate past complaints. The only thing the investigation could do is have the FAC tape various people and see how the measurements compared. I'm not so sure that validates anyones past claim or at least it is not enough validation to get past tests thrown out.

They were able to "fix" things when they assumed that PTL's were "cheating" when they went to the civilians doing it (without having a time machine to go back) so, whether it's an investigation or just a review is irrelevant. They need to look into it and make sure people know how to do a proper waist measurement.

SomeRandomGuy
09-27-2013, 01:48 PM
They were able to "fix" things when they assumed that PTL's were "cheating" when they went to the civilians doing it (without having a time machine to go back) so, whether it's an investigation or just a review is irrelevant. They need to look into it and make sure people know how to do a proper waist measurement.

I think you are correct they can make some changes I just do not think the investigation will do anything for previous tests. If I were running the investigation I would find people with various body types and send them as sort of "secret shoppers." Measure them immediatly before they test and then see if the measurement varies when they are measured by the FAC. If they did not want to use "secret shoopers" they could also choose 50 people and have the FAC measure them all. Then compare the different measurements and see where it varies. In all honesty I do not see why the FAC wouldn't have a policy like this in place anyways.

sandsjames
09-27-2013, 01:52 PM
I think you are correct they can make some changes I just do not think the investigation will do anything for previous tests. If I were running the investigation I would find people with various body types and send them as sort of "secret shoppers." Measure them immediatly before they test and then see if the measurement varies when they are measured by the FAC. If they did not want to use "secret shoopers" they could also choose 50 people and have the FAC measure them all. Then compare the different measurements and see where it varies. In all honesty I do not see why the FAC wouldn't have a policy like this in place anyways.

Yep, should have something in place to verify. Hell, they could even take 1 person, have 3 different FACs measure them. I don't think the FACs are intentionally getting it wrong, I just think it's too difficult for them to be consistent.

20+Years
09-27-2013, 01:53 PM
There is no consistency to the taping. I have had the tape pulled tight, snugly, or barely touching the skin. Each of these methods will give different results. And each style is interpreted by the taper of the correct method. Its odd when my taping history reads 34-34-34-36-34. Nothing was different on that 36 except for the method the taper used...aka, barely lay it against the skin

imported_StandardsAMust
09-27-2013, 02:18 PM
There is no consistency to the taping. I have had the tape pulled tight, snugly, or barely touching the skin. Each of these methods will give different results. And each style is interpreted by the taper of the correct method. Its odd when my taping history reads 34-34-34-36-34. Nothing was different on that 36 except for the method the taper used...aka, barely lay it against the skin

The Air Force needs the Gulick tape measurement to be the standard measuring device...it has a spring tensioner to prevent this waist measurement inconsistency nightmare.

What base is this anyway? PM me if you don't want to post it here.

imnohero
09-27-2013, 02:26 PM
The Air Force needs the Gulick tape measurement to be the standard measuring device...it has a spring tensioner to prevent this waist measurement inconsistency nightmare.

What base is this anyway? PM me if you don't want to post it here.

As I recall, that's what they used when this whole thing started, at least at my base. I know I was trained on how to use it. I believe it fell victim to budget cuts.

USMC0341
09-27-2013, 02:52 PM
Do you folks get taped if you have a 1st class PFT (or is your score not broken into categories, just pass/fail)? even though the Marines are sctrict on PT and PFT's, at least if you score a 1st class it didn't matter if you had a beer gut.

20+Years
09-27-2013, 04:45 PM
The "off" taping was in Incirlik.

jshiver15
09-27-2013, 05:35 PM
In my unit we had a SSgt who was looking at a discharge board and before the separation package went past the wing level, they called into question the PTL who had administered 2 of the failing tests. It turns out there were a handful of complaints about the female PTL not taping correctly and whatnot, so the separation package got suspended before it went to a board and the two tests were thrown out. The shit of it is . . the guy taped at 44" both times. It didn't matter if she did it one handed and with a blindfold on, the dude's waist was huge.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-27-2013, 10:27 PM
In my unit we had a SSgt who was looking at a discharge board and before the separation package went past the wing level, they called into question the PTL who had administered 2 of the failing tests. It turns out there were a handful of complaints about the female PTL not taping correctly and whatnot, so the separation package got suspended before it went to a board and the two tests were thrown out. The shit of it is . . the guy taped at 44" both times. It didn't matter if she did it one handed and with a blindfold on, the dude's waist was huge.
So what's the difference when an untrained partner counts push-ups and sit-ups? This whole program stinks.

technomage1
09-27-2013, 10:37 PM
Do you folks get taped if you have a 1st class PFT (or is your score not broken into categories, just pass/fail)? even though the Marines are sctrict on PT and PFT's, at least if you score a 1st class it didn't matter if you had a beer gut.

That would be nice, but no. Taping occurs no matter what your score is. You can ace all other components but bust the max waist and it's an auto fail.

technomage1
09-27-2013, 11:07 PM
The "off" taping was in Incirlik.

The off taping is everywhere. I've been the same weight for some time yet my tape has been different nearly test, varying as much as 2".

technomage1
09-28-2013, 07:32 AM
F the FAC

You should sell t-shirts

Gonzo432
09-28-2013, 11:52 AM
You should sell t-shirts

I'll take one. Do they only come in XXXL??:victorious:

jshiver15
09-28-2013, 03:13 PM
So what's the difference when an untrained partner counts push-ups and sit-ups? This whole program stinks.

Really there isn't a difference. But the guy was saved by a technicality that shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. It didn't really matter because he went on to fail his next 3 tests in a 270 day period and was discharged under the DOS rollback in 2011 (which actually turned out to be a really good benefit to him).

imported_StandardsAMust
09-28-2013, 03:47 PM
Really there isn't a difference. But the guy was saved by a technicality that shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. It didn't really matter because he went on to fail his next 3 tests in a 270 day period and was discharged under the DOS rollback in 2011 (which actually turned out to be a really good benefit to him).

That's the way many folks have went...instead of fitness discharges, which are a pain in the ass, the DOS rollback made it simple. Sadly, most get benefits, but at least they are not serving anymore. The ones separated under DOS do not count against the number CSAF mentioned in his email.

Capt Alfredo
09-28-2013, 07:00 PM
That's the way many folks have went...instead of fitness discharges, which are a pain in the ass, the DOS rollback made it simple. Sadly, most get benefits, but at least they are not serving anymore. The ones separated under DOS do not count against the number CSAF mentioned in his email.

Why sadly? Wait, don't answer, I already know why.

fufu
09-30-2013, 03:31 AM
Simply put: The waist measurement is BS. Always has been, inconsistencies, etc. I've been taped 37" at 205 and 36" at 175. I gave up trying to figure out what the measurement will be before the test.

Only the military will pay civilians more to do the same job can careless about their appearance.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-30-2013, 09:35 AM
Simply put: The waist measurement is BS. Always has been, inconsistencies, etc. I've been taped 37" at 205 and 36" at 175. I gave up trying to figure out what the measurement will be before the test.

Only the military will pay civilians more to do the same job can careless about their appearance.

What's BS is the ones that are clearly over the 39" standard that come back with a generous 39" or less taping.

Capt Alfredo
10-01-2013, 12:48 AM
What's BS is the ones that are clearly over the 39" standard that come back with a generous 39" or less taping.

What are you, the terminator? Do you have a automatic waist-measuring app loaded into your brain? Sometimes things aren't as you perceive. I think I could *guess* what constitutes a 39+ waist, but would never be so arrogant as to draw conclusions without data. Clearly.

sandsjames
10-01-2013, 01:28 AM
Why sadly? Wait, don't answer, I already know why.

Something along the lines that if you can't run fast or are fat, you don't deserve shit. You should be dishonorably discharged...maybe even go to CM. Come on, Cap...get with the times.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-01-2013, 01:43 AM
Something along the lines that if you can't run fast or are fat, you don't deserve shit. You should be dishonorably discharged...maybe even go to CM. Come on, Cap...get with the times.

It isn't ok to be fat but you aren't a victim if you are fat.

sandsjames
10-01-2013, 01:46 AM
It isn't ok to be fat but you aren't a victim if you are fat.

I am a victim...a victim of the advertisers. They made me eat burgers, drink sodas, etc. Plus, technology has become so good that I really don't have a reason to get off the couch...that's it...I'm a victim of technology. I blame science for my laziness.

imnohero
10-01-2013, 02:16 AM
It isn't ok to be fat but you aren't a victim if you are fat.

Said the skinny guy :)

I said it before and I'll say it again: If the AF wants a weight and appearance standard, they should implement one. Whether or not I have love handles or I "look too fat" has virtually nothing to do with my fitness level. What it should be called in the Air Force Weight Test and Fitness Program. The AFWTFP...probably not though, cuz it would take 3 seconds for "the troops" to start calling it the Air Force What The F**k Program.

Absinthe Anecdote
10-01-2013, 02:36 AM
I am a victim...a victim of the advertisers. They made me eat burgers, drink sodas, etc. Plus, technology has become so good that I really don't have a reason to get off the couch...that's it...I'm a victim of technology. I blame science for my laziness.

Poor guy...

I'll send you a case of pop tarts to comfort you.

TREYSLEDGE
10-01-2013, 01:18 PM
The Air Force needs the Gulick tape measurement to be the standard measuring device...it has a spring tensioner to prevent this waist measurement inconsistency nightmare.



Winner, winner, Chicken Dinner!

sandsjames
10-01-2013, 01:49 PM
Winner, winner, Chicken Dinner!

The only problem is that, even with the tensioner, the tester still needs to measure the correct location. It seems every time I tested the tape was in a different location.

imported_StandardsAMust
10-01-2013, 08:15 PM
The only problem is that, even with the tensioner, the tester still needs to measure the correct location. It seems every time I tested the tape was in a different location.

I've measured hundreds of folks...never had an issue finding that "iliac" crest in skinny people. It's the overweight, out of shape, people that are hard to measure because they have too much fat around them to even find the bone...when you have to poke around to the point of trying to find a bone, then something is wrong with that picture.

grimreaper
10-01-2013, 09:13 PM
I've measured hundreds of folks...never had an issue finding that "iliac" crest in skinny people. It's the overweight, out of shape, people that are hard to measure because they have too much fat around them to even find the bone...when you have to poke around to the point of trying to find a bone, then something is wrong with that picture.

Yeah, it means we have testers guessing on things that impact people's careers. If the AF is going to hold people to a standard, then they need to have a means of measuring people that is "standard" and accurate.

Considering I've been taped 3 days in a row (by 3 different people) before due to weather cancellations, with different measurements each time (varying from 35" to 37") the only set standard is on paper, not in practice.

sandsjames
10-01-2013, 10:56 PM
I've measured hundreds of folks...never had an issue finding that "iliac" crest in skinny people. It's the overweight, out of shape, people that are hard to measure because they have too much fat around them to even find the bone...when you have to poke around to the point of trying to find a bone, then something is wrong with that picture.

And that's the problem. The "skinny" people aren't the issue. The others, who can have 1" make a difference, are difficult. I'm glad you at least admit that there are several people who you may have measured wrong. Hopefully, when they do the review, more FACs will be as honest.