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AERYCK13
09-05-2013, 09:45 AM
In response to criticism about the TopsinBlue[“AirForceToons,”Aug. 12; and airforcetimes.com/Flightlines], I challenge anyone to spend one week on tour with us, specifically in a deployed location.

"It’s clear some people do not have any idea what the program is about and the positive impact it has on our troops.

I wish people knew what it was like to see tears running down the faces of our troops on Christmas Day at Kunsan Air Base in South Korea while they feel a little bit of home during a show, or the look of relief on the faces of those deployed to base XYZ who are getting a chance to relax for the first time in weeks or months.

I would be curious to see who could handle the physical challenge of a typical day on tour. This is anything but a group of prima donnas who show up at a base for the glitz and glam.

The show is only 1.5 hours. The other 22.5 hours of the day are grueling, but the team voluntarily takes it on to be there for our troops and their families.

Next time you have an idea to disrespect an organization you don’t understand, do some research first.

Master Sgt. Tammara M. LaMar (ret.)

Tampa, Fla."

Dear MSgt LaMar and all Tops in Blue members,

While it is true that I don't understand how Tops in Blue operates, I do know that your shows suck. Anytime that Tops in Blue perform anywhere that I am, I am embarrassed to be wearing the same uniform as you in front of sister service members. A whole week on tour with you in a deployed location? Newsflash: we're already there when you show up, breeze into town, get the royal treatment, stay for a week, get your IDP & Family Sep for the month (and maybe a medal), and go back home; while we stay there for a whole tour. The reason that you might see tears on the faces of those you perform for is probably because they are forced to watch you stumble through a ridiculous dance routine, or warble some outdated show tune instead of being home with their family or spending time doing anything else that is fun. I would be curious to see any of you handle the physical challenge of typical day in nearly any other actual job in the AF or any other service. You are prima donnas that do nothing impactful for the USAF. If you want to sing and dance, then please sing and dance... somewhere else. If you want to be in the military, then contribute to the mission of your selected service. Your audiences are typically rent-a-crowds that don't really want to be there and your performances are lame. You are a waste of military resources. I wholeheartedly disrespect your organization and will not do any research on it because, quite frankly, I don't care. Tops in Blue is an absolute waste of time, money, and manpower.

Bring on the hate...

Stalwart
09-05-2013, 10:04 AM
AERYCK13, no hate, you do bring up some good points.

I will say, units like Tops In Blue, The Blue Angels, Thunderbirds & Marine Corps Silent Drill Team all contribute to various missions (usually public relations, recruiting or morale). Currently with budgets being what they are, organizations like these are getting a hard look -- rightly so.

At the same time, I think the MSgt who wrote the original letter has a point, working in those units does require a lot of hours. Where she loses me is comparing coming into a deployed location for a week to as you said "staying for the whole tour". When folks visit a deployed location for a day or week, yes they see it but they don't live it -- and they shouldn't confuse the difference.

AERYCK13
09-05-2013, 10:09 AM
AERYCK13, no hate, you do bring up some good points.

I will say, units like Tops In Blue, The Blue Angels, Thunderbirds & Marine Corps Silent Drill Team all contribute to various missions (usually public relations, recruiting or morale). Currently with budgets being what they are, organizations like these are getting a hard look -- rightly so.

At the same time, I think the MSgt who wrote the original letter has a point, working in those units does require a lot of hours. Where she loses me is comparing coming into a deployed location for a week to as you said "staying for the whole tour". When folks visit a deployed location for a day or week, yes they see it but they don't live it -- and they shouldn't confuse the difference.

Funny you should mention the things you did. We had a similar converstation short while back...

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1596614-Things-that-should-go-away

Nickymaz
09-05-2013, 10:27 AM
[MENTION=19823]

I will say, units like Tops In Blue, The Blue Angels, Thunderbirds & Marine Corps Silent Drill Team all contribute to various missions (usually public relations, recruiting or morale). Currently with budgets being what they are, organizations like these are getting a hard look -- rightly so.



I would raise the point that the flight demo teams and drill teams serve a role that is actually connected to the mission of the military. The Thunderbirds fly real F-16s that can be transitioned back to service in 72 hours, they fly real formations and maneuvers, the pilots are mission capable. Ceremonial units like the US Army's 3rd Infantry Regiment also maintain qualifications as infantrymen. The Ceremonial missions of drill teams, funerals, state functions are still a core function of the military.

But the Tops in Blue are taken from their career fields to sign and dance, which not a core military function or mission. And I'm still waiting to meet the Airman who joined because of tops in blue.

akruse
09-05-2013, 10:39 AM
I would raise the point that the flight demo teams and drill teams serve a roll that is actually connected to the mission of the military.
.

What does it taste like?

BOSS302
09-05-2013, 10:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM34rIOb9_g

AERYCK13
09-05-2013, 11:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM34rIOb9_g

I'm not sure if this video was intended to oppose or support, but I'd say it definitely bolsters my case...

If you want some more light reading go to actual YouTube page for this video and read the comments there also...

Venus
09-05-2013, 11:10 AM
When I was at Mildenhall in the 80's we had base talent shows at the Bob Hope Rec ctr which were fairly entertaining plus we were out giving support to a buddy who has the guts to sing in front of a crowd. Did it have anything to do with the mission , no but it was a fun thing to watch plus all the contestants did not lose work time. TIB on the other hand I as deployed troop at ONW had to be forced to hear them on the flightline when told to shutdown for a quiet hour and work late after their salute to Disney. My latest encounter with them was when I worked transient alert and then opening the hatch on the jet they were on and getting overwhelmed by the cheap smell of perfume filling up a C-17. After they downloaded their crap from the jet the aircrew vented on how disgusted they were in having to schlep them around and put up with the drama queens. The T-birds from a MX POV do the same thing they would do if they were in any F-16 unit except load weapons and have to keep their jets a whole lot cleaner, at least they are working in their AFSC's and staying current, and yes they do bust their ass especially to make a show time when their jets are not cooperating. My only gripe with them is all the hosting base or air show has to put out front to accommodate them, its great to have them for the crowds but it financially most shows barely break even due to the costs of hosting them.

Venus
09-05-2013, 11:39 AM
I'm not sure if this video was intended to oppose or support, but I'd say it definitely bolsters my case...

If you want some more light reading go to actual YouTube page for this video and read the comments there also...

I think I just threw up in my mouth, had to watch a Natl Geo Combat Rescue video to be proud of my AF again.

TREYSLEDGE
09-05-2013, 11:47 AM
My opinion is Tops in Blue needs to be disbanded. I've had two airmen who joined TIB. Both applications were submitted and approved by the Sq/CC before I arrived at the respective bases or else I would have denied their request. So I lose an airman for a year, with no replacement. If we're getting rid of Airmen, why are we also sending some out to go sing and dance for a year?

These TIB airmen are talented, they do work long hours when on the road, and there may have been a need for them back in the eighties. But, no more. Want to entertain the troops? Have USO help out. Hire a foul mouthed comedian (too soon?). Something that doesn't take my airman out of the shop for a year and leave his peers to pick up his slack and the slack of those deployed for legitimate missions.

20+Years
09-05-2013, 12:50 PM
The last time I saw TIB was probably 09-10. They were at the annual AFSA conference. The dinner was nice, but I walked out about 3 minutes after TIB started. The music was blaringly loud, they were dancing up and down the isles... yeah, not for me. When I got home I told my 13 year old daughter she would have loved the "Air Force High School Musical".

TJMAC77SP
09-05-2013, 01:09 PM
The last time I saw TIB was probably 09-10. They were at the annual AFSA conference. The dinner was nice, but I walked out about 3 minutes after TIB started. The music was blaringly loud, they were dancing up and down the isles... yeah, not for me. When I got home I told my 13 year old daughter she would have loved the "Air Force High School Musical".

Sounds spot on with what I have seen over the years. Nice to have but in lean times, pretty hard to justify. Especially with the pool of real (professional) entertainers available via the USO.

DWWSWWD
09-05-2013, 02:18 PM
Man, I hate to pile on here because there is no question that these folks work very hard. We cannot afford to cut these Airmen out of hide and pay for them to be traipsing all over the world. And.... this stings a little, I know, but I've never met anyone that's been to a show that was blown away by these guys. There are too many professional performers that put on shows for the troops for us to need this deal. Even if they suck, the fact that they are taking time from their families, putting themselves at risk and paying for it on their own speaks volumes. I have a tremendous amount of respect for them. The guys that roll around singing and dancing on active duty, while their teammates sit at the house taking up their slack......not so much.

jshiver15
09-05-2013, 02:23 PM
I'm not sure if this video was intended to oppose or support, but I'd say it definitely bolsters my case...

If you want some more light reading go to actual YouTube page for this video and read the comments there also...

One of the comments was from a girl who said Tops in Blue doesn't cost the DoD any money because they rely on corporate sponsors. I immediately wanted to respond "Are you fucking high?!"

Stalwart
09-05-2013, 02:50 PM
The guys that roll around singing and dancing on active duty, while their teammates sit at the house taking up their slack......not so much.

Agreed. I do say something like this is similar to the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels or even the Silent Drill Team, but at least the pilots and maintainers are sustaining their military skills. I won't say that singing and dancing isn't hard work, but it isn't what you were trained to do.


One of the comments was from a girl who said Tops in Blue doesn't cost the DoD any money because they rely on corporate sponsors. I immediately wanted to respond "Are you fucking high?!"

She probably would not want to do it if she were placed in a non-pay, no medical, no dental, no BAH, no per-diem status for the year they are there, that does change the paradigm. Just a guess: if there are 50 of them and the if each salary averages at $50k per year that is $2.5 million in salary alone, throw in medical, dental, housing, per-diem and possibly benefits for those with families and it adds up.

I don't think anyone would volunteer for that.

Juggs
09-05-2013, 04:35 PM
Dear MSgt Tamarra LaMar,
Challenge any of your TIB catered to Whiney asses to spend a week on "tour" with TACPs in afghaniland, humping around all the gear they can carry and using a rock as a pillow.

Spend a week turning wrenches with maintainers on a hot ass flight line for 12-16 hrs

Spend 12 hrs in the bagram trauma roof or a week.

Seriously lady, you need help.

Signed,
Everybody.

akruse
09-05-2013, 04:48 PM
I haven't been to TIB in a long time, but when I did go, I always enjoyed the show. The folks are most-assuredly quite talented.

Their schedule always amazed me, doing a show like that in a new city almost every night..set-up, perform, tear-down, travel. I'm sure it is quite brutal.

I've never seen anyone moved to tears during the show though and believe the MSgt is over-stating her point. The shows are good, but not that important to the force.

The performers, as mentioned, are taken from regular AFSCs around the AF...so most anyone can do the duty (if they had the talent), and everyone on the TIB can also perform in regular jobs.

It is a great opportunity for the performers, and honestly, I believe it benefits them more than anyone else.

You're fucking with us right? Right?

TJMAC77SP
09-05-2013, 05:26 PM
You're fucking with us right? Right?

Why do you think that? He is correct. TIB performers do work hard and without a doubt they get more from the time on TIB than the Air Force does. No one can deny that but the real quesiton is whether it is appropriate to continue the program in these times. Seriously, other than getting the name US AIR FORCE out there (like that is really needed) can anyone cite someone who claimed they joined because they saw a TIB show? I suppose other wannabe entertainers might but they are also trying out for every reality talent show out there.

20+Years
09-05-2013, 05:58 PM
, and everyone on the TIB can also perform in regular jobs.

Not completely true. An A1C left for TIB right as I was arriving in the duty section many years back. She was a great singer and pretty darn hot. Perfect for for TIB? They sent her back 4 months later for failing her CDCs and fraternization. Appears some Lt. in TIB thought she was hot too.

She ended up seperating.

OtisRNeedleman
09-05-2013, 07:46 PM
Don't think I ever saw a TIB. If I did, the show was so underwhelming I don't remember it. I'll add my voice to the chorus of those who believe TIB needs to go. So many other ways to be entertained, anyway.

TomTom093
09-06-2013, 12:33 AM
When the "Every Idea Counts" site was active on portal, there was a discussion similar to this one about canceling TIB (and I think all the bands), and it was HILARIOUS. Almost everyone was in pretty good agreement, until a single person (can't remember if military or civilian) started opposing it like canceling TIB would cause the apocalypse. He justified the expense by saying the Airmen performing work hard (not saying they don't), and that their skills translate back into a combat environment. Many posters called bullshit on the last bit.

Mr. Happy
09-06-2013, 12:44 AM
If they were so broke that they had to ground combat aircraft squadrons this past summer, then that should had been the nail in the coffin for programs like TIB once and for all...period. I'm sure they are a dedicated and talented group of Airmen, but our bottom line should be generating combat capability first and foremost. When aircraft aren't flying in the Air Force due to money, then it is an absurd notion that TIB would still be sucking oxygen. If there ever was a low hanging fruit ripe for cuts, TIB is it.

RFScott
09-06-2013, 12:53 AM
If they were broke that they had to ground combat aircraft squadrons this past summer, then that should had been the nail in the coffin for programs like TIB once and for all...period. I'm sure they are a dedicated and talented group of Airmen, but our bottom line should be generating combat capability first and foremost. When aircraft aren't flying in the Air Force due to money, this it is an absurd notion that yet TIB was still sucking oxygen. If there ever was a low hanging fruit ripe for cuts, TIB is it.

Well they had to have someway to cheer up all the aircrews who weren't able to fly...;)

Slyoldawg
09-06-2013, 02:38 AM
During a 26 year career in the Air Force I never saw a single show by "The Tops In Blue." In fact, I never heard of them until reading this forum. During 24 months in Vietnam I saw Bob Hope show twice and Ann Margaret stands out as the most welcomed person visiting us. I saw Bob Hope shows in Goose Bay, and Torrejon AB Spain also, but again, I never heard of the Tops In Blue. Are they a recent thing?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-06-2013, 03:11 AM
I would raise the point that the flight demo teams and drill teams serve a role that is actually connected to the mission of the military. The Thunderbirds fly real F-16s that can be transitioned back to service in 72 hours, they fly real formations and maneuvers, the pilots are mission capable. Ceremonial units like the US Army's 3rd Infantry Regiment also maintain qualifications as infantrymen. The Ceremonial missions of drill teams, funerals, state functions are still a core function of the military.

But the Tops in Blue are taken from their career fields to sign and dance, which not a core military function or mission. And I'm still waiting to meet the Airman who joined because of tops in blue.

No, the jets cannot be converted back to operational status that quickly. The smoke system must be replaced with the 20 mm gun, armament systems (pylons, rails, associated avionics) must be restored, and the gloss paint must be stripped and repainted. The aircrew are not all originally trained on the F-16, so when they get into the program they go to Luke to learn to fly the aircraft, not employ it in the various combat scenarios (air to air, air to ground, nuclear strike, etc). While serving on the team they train ONLY to perform basic and airshow flight maneuvers, not combat mission readiness. As for the enlisted team, there are no weapons loaders or ECM specialists assigned either.

Chief_KO
09-06-2013, 03:26 AM
TIB has been around since 1953.

needmorecowbell
09-06-2013, 03:31 AM
I usually deploy to a COP or FOB. I wouldn't mind seeing some hot chicks, but I have never seen TIB. Oh well :(

Chief_KO
09-06-2013, 03:37 AM
No, the jets cannot be converted back to operational status that quickly. The smoke system must be replaced with the 20 mm gun, armament systems (pylons, rails, associated avionics) must be restored, and the gloss paint must be stripped and repainted. The aircrew are not all originally trained on the F-16, so when they get into the program they go to Luke to learn to fly the aircraft, not employ it in the various combat scenarios (air to air, air to ground, nuclear strike, etc). While serving on the team they train ONLY to perform basic and airshow flight maneuvers, not combat mission readiness. As for the enlisted team, there are no weapons loaders or ECM specialists assigned either.

Plus they gotta get all that Armor All off the tires and attempt to get the pilot's heads back into a normal sized helmet...

BRUWIN
09-06-2013, 04:35 AM
All of you guys are a bunch of knuckleheads. Last time I saw TIB I was at my wits end career-wise and it picked me up. Yes...I did shed tears when they took the stage but I guess ya'll are too manly to admit that. I also cried when Old Yeller got shot. Did any of you guys cry when Old Yeller got shot? Really...nobody cried when Old Yeller got shot? I think you are all a bunch of BS.

CJSmith
09-06-2013, 06:10 AM
I would be all for TIB if we could allow a couple caveats.

#1 Treat it like American Idol and televise it on AFN or the Pentagon Channel. And I don't want to see the good talent, I want to see the rejects that think they have what it takes.

#2 The judges come from this forum board. I'm thinking BRUWIN, 20+Years and the Simon Cowell can be Rusty Jones. That should spice things up.

Did I miss anything? I think we can turn this TIB thing around to provide better entertainment for us the way we like it!

Bunch
09-06-2013, 06:26 AM
Whoever say here that the TIB guys don't work their ass off is completely insane!!!

I work with those guys when they came up to our base and the stuff they do as far as set up, stage, performance and tear down would have many of the whiny folks around here go crying to their first shirt. These guys have some serious talent. I recruited two troops that made it to TIB. One guy could play any instrument their is and the other could sing her lungs out. Making it to TIB was one of the recruiting pitches I made to them and they both absolutely enjoyed their time there.

If we have an AF baseball team, Thunderbirds or any other special group of guys that feel like persuing a passion I'm all for it. The Air Force is one if the few organizations in the world that can allow you to do this type of stuff and I think is great.

Bunch
09-06-2013, 06:26 AM
Double post.

technomage1
09-06-2013, 06:28 AM
We should replace tops in blue with something people really want to see - like strippers. Charge a $20 cover and the tours would make money.

Lest I sound sexist, male strippers would also be included in a separate show.

akruse
09-06-2013, 06:39 AM
Whoever say here that the TIB guys don't work their ass off is completely insane!!!

I work with those guys when they came up to our base and the stuff they do as far as set up, stage, performance and tear down would have many of the whiny folks around here go crying to their first shirt. These guys have some serious talent. I recruited two troops that made it to TIB. One guy could play any instrument their is and the other could sing her lungs out. Making it to TIB was one of the recruiting pitches I made to them and they both absolutely enjoyed their time there.

If we have an AF baseball team, Thunderbirds or any other special group of guys that feel like persuing a passion I'm all for it. The Air Force is one if the few organizations in the world that can allow you to do this type of stuff and I think is great.

Great. They work their ass off. Super. They also make their shop pick up their slack for a year plus. Regardless of cost or the like, they should be disbanded for that reason alone. Nobody joins the AF because of TIB. Get rid of them.

Bunch
09-06-2013, 06:45 AM
Great. They work their ass off. Super. They also make their shop pick up their slack for a year plus. Regardless of cost or the like, they should be disbanded for that reason alone. Nobody joins the AF because of TIB. Get rid of them.

Seeing the world through your own sensibilities only makes you a myopic individual. Who are you to say that NO ONE joins the AF because TIB? That might be your case and that of many others but for some people that do have that passion it might play a big role.

TIB has been going along for 57 years, please tell me what kind of mission degradation they have caused? Have we lost any wars because of TIB? Please educate me... I'm waiting...

There are a lot of things that are causing mission degradation in the AF...TIB is not one of them!!

akruse
09-06-2013, 06:51 AM
Seeing the world through your own sensibilities only makes you a myopic individual. Who are you to say that NO ONE joins the AF because TIB? That might be your case and that of many others but for some people that do have that passion it might play a big role.

TIB has been going along for 57 years, please tell me what kind of mission degradation they have caused? Have we lost any wars because of TIB? Please educate me... I'm waiting...

I will just say this and if you can answer it effectively I will concede defeat.

Name one thing that TIB brings to the mission of defeating our enemies?

I can only think of negatives in that aspect.

Bunch
09-06-2013, 07:03 AM
I will just say this and if you can answer it effectively I will concede defeat.

Name one thing that TIB brings to the mission of defeating our enemies?

I can only think of negatives in that aspect.

I will give you the kool aid answer because I think is enough but since I don't see the world through my own sensibilities I will go even deeper.

The kid that plays the piano and happens to have an IQ above 130. This kid is not thinking about college wants to do something different. This kid takes the ASVAB and scores a 98 (which is basically a perfect score). This kid qualifies for any job in the Air Force but he also happens to have a deep passion for music and don't know how in the Air Force he could channel that passion. Bingo!! Tops In Blues!!!

The kids comes into the Air Force as an intel analyst helping the guys on the ground with intel. A year later he does a TIB tour and then comes back to his unit and still helping guys on the ground defeating the enemy.

That's how TIB helps you defeating the enemy, by bringing kids that might have other passions into the AF and helping them understand that while they still have a job to do they can also follow their dreams and passions.

Beats the hell out of playing XBOX or what ever other shit kids do these days if you ask me!!

akruse
09-06-2013, 07:41 AM
I will give you the kool aid answer because I think is enough but since I don't see the world through my own sensibilities I will go even deeper.

The kid that plays the piano and happens to have an IQ above 130. This kid is not thinking about college wants to do something different. This kid takes the ASVAB and scores a 98 (which is basically a perfect score). This kid qualifies for any job in the Air Force but he also happens to have a deep passion for music and don't know how in the Air Force he could channel that passion. Bingo!! Tops In Blues!!!

The kids comes into the Air Force as an intel analyst helping the guys on the ground with intel. A year later he does a TIB tour and then comes back to his unit and still helping guys on the ground defeating the enemy.

That's how TIB helps you defeating the enemy, by bringing kids that might have other passions into the AF and helping them understand that while they still have a job to do they can also follow their dreams and passions.

Beats the hell out of playing XBOX or what ever other shit kids do these days if you ask me!!

Can't get on board with that. Benefit doesn't even come close to outweighing the cost.

BOSS302
09-06-2013, 08:32 AM
Maybe Tops in Blue does work their ass off. Unfortunately my experience when dealing with them has been at the other end of that spectrum and - at the risk of also being labeled "myopic" - I'll let my personal experiences with Tops in Blue define my opinion of them.

And my opinion of Tops in Blue is not a genial one.

imported_AFKILO7
09-06-2013, 11:38 AM
I will give you the kool aid answer because I think is enough but since I don't see the world through my own sensibilities I will go even deeper.

The kid that plays the piano and happens to have an IQ above 130. This kid is not thinking about college wants to do something different. This kid takes the ASVAB and scores a 98 (which is basically a perfect score). This kid qualifies for any job in the Air Force but he also happens to have a deep passion for music and don't know how in the...

So he is almost Rain Man? I was stationed at Lajes years ago and we had a young Airmen PCS soon after I arrived. He just came off a stint as TIB. He had only been SFS for barely a year when he left the job to "pursue his dream" and when he got to Lajes he couldn't even perform basic tasks. But he could sing. He is a nice person but I would not feel comfortable having him run a convoy or dismounted patrol.

I personally love watching TIB/AF Softball team etc walk around Lackland with their noses in the air. I'm all work, there is a mission to be accomplished...galavanting around the world playing grab ass and singing show tunes only takes away from that capability. It's bad enough when you have to keep sending people out the door when that one body may prevent having that Airmen that just came back from a 8 month tasking having to go right back out 3 months later.

20+Years
09-06-2013, 12:27 PM
I would be all for TIB if we could allow a couple caveats.

#1 Treat it like American Idol and televise it on AFN or the Pentagon Channel. And I don't want to see the good talent, I want to see the rejects that think they have what it takes.

#2 The judges come from this forum board. I'm thinking BRUWIN, 20+Years and the Simon Cowell can be Rusty Jones. That should spice things up.

Did I miss anything? I think we can turn this TIB thing around to provide better entertainment for us the way we like it!



Bruwin has to be the token woman though. How do you look in a wig and skirt Bruwin?

Pullinteeth
09-06-2013, 12:32 PM
It is a great opportunity for the performers, and honestly, I believe it benefits them more than anyone else.

Couldn't have said it better myself....


The kid that plays the piano and happens to have an IQ above 130. This kid is not thinking about college wants to do something different. This kid takes the ASVAB and scores a 98 (which is basically a perfect score). This kid qualifies for any job in the Air Force but he also happens to have a deep passion for music and don't know how in the Air Force he could channel that passion. Bingo!! Tops In Blues!!!

No it isn't. A 99 with 99s across the board (AF line scores) is a prefect score. Someone with a 98 might have bombed Mech or Elec...

You asked what war we lost because of them? I blame Vietnam on TIB.

My opinion? Get rid of them. There is quite simply no value add. If even the TIB members are whining and complaining that they have to work 24 hours a day, it should go. That is inhumane. Surely you don't think anyone should have to work 24 hours a day do you? I know several people that tried out (and made TIB) but myself, I haven't seen them once and honestly, I don't think I know anyone that has (voluntarily).

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-06-2013, 12:33 PM
TIB audience demographics:

1. Senior citizens
2. Children under 10
3. Active Duty who are "highly encouraged" to attend

That's it! You will not find recruitable- aged teens at these shows. They're just not interested in 1950s/60s type of entertainment...you know, the kind you can find in Branson, Missouri. I've seen TIB and Branson shows. They're almost identical!

I've heard the TIB members "work hard." That's wonderful people with such high work ethic would probably excel back in their assigned shops. Send them back there!

Bunch
09-06-2013, 12:48 PM
So he is almost Rain Man? I was stationed at Lajes years ago and we had a young Airmen PCS soon after I arrived. He just came off a stint as TIB. He had only been SFS for barely a year when he left the job to "pursue his dream" and when he got to Lajes he couldn't even perform basic tasks. But he could sing. He is a nice person but I would not feel comfortable having him run a convoy or dismounted patrol.

I personally love watching TIB/AF Softball team etc walk around Lackland with their noses in the air. I'm all work, there is a mission to be accomplished...galavanting around the world playing grab ass and singing show tunes only takes away from that capability. It's bad enough when you have to keep sending people out the door when that one body may prevent having that Airmen that just came back from a 8 month tasking having to go right back out 3 months later.

Hahahahahaha... I have met many Ssgt's, TSgt's and MSgt's that have NOT served in TIB and dont know shit about their jobs!!! This arguement doesnt hold any water... Either you learn your job or you dont!! Thats an individual responsibilty!!

Bunch
09-06-2013, 12:50 PM
Can't get on board with that. Benefit doesn't even come close to outweighing the cost.

So now is about cost!?

TREYSLEDGE
09-06-2013, 12:56 PM
Seeing the world through your own sensibilities only makes you a myopic individual. Who are you to say that NO ONE joins the AF because TIB? That might be your case and that of many others but for some people that do have that passion it might play a big role.

TIB has been going along for 57 years, please tell me what kind of mission degradation they have caused? Have we lost any wars because of TIB? Please educate me... I'm waiting...

There are a lot of things that are causing mission degradation in the AF...TIB is not one of them!!

For mission degradation a few things pop to mind (actual situations that happened):
- There is now a deployable UTC with a vacant position which must be filled by someone outside of the AEF cycle reducing dwell times for someone who recently deployed.
- Because there is one less person in my 8 person shop that has frequent after hours calls in a missile field that means more strain and lower morale for the shop because they know they are working harder because the TIB airman is doing something does not enable the mission. Then when 2 more guys from the shop deploy it gets worse without the TIB airman.

Now these won't degrade the overall Air Force mission but they definitely degrate my squadron mission. Can we still get our job done, yes but with more strain on my airmen with personel reductions and reduced budgets that are already causing challenges.

Like I said before, the TIB airmen are talented and work hard, but given today's environment of the personnel and fiscal challenges and the availablility of live and electronic entertainment, TIB is not needed and should be disbanded.

I'm not targeting TIB, there are many other programs and groups that should be disbanded due to the current situation.

TJMAC77SP
09-06-2013, 01:05 PM
Seeing the world through your own sensibilities only makes you a myopic individual. Who are you to say that NO ONE joins the AF because TIB? That might be your case and that of many others but for some people that do have that passion it might play a big role.

TIB has been going along for 57 years, please tell me what kind of mission degradation they have caused? Have we lost any wars because of TIB? Please educate me... I'm waiting...

There are a lot of things that are causing mission degradation in the AF...TIB is not one of them!!

Carnac would have called this one.

akruse
09-06-2013, 01:06 PM
So now is about cost!?

Yes cost. Wrap your jazz handed brain around it. There are many "costs" to these gifted people. Nothing like sitting on ramp at XYZ deployed location after 5-8 months of actual work only to see the C-17 fly away with these fine individuals on it. Guess I'll get the next one.

imported_Renazance
09-06-2013, 01:10 PM
So now is about cost!?

Cost can refer to something other than a monetary value. I'm sure akruse was referring to the cost of losing an abled body, coworkers having to pick up slack left behind by TIB member, etc.

DWWSWWD
09-06-2013, 01:28 PM
This is a perception thing. If we're broke, let's act like we're broke. Can we afford TIB? Of course we can. Can we afford flyovers at sporting events or Thunderbirds shows? Of course. Those were canx'd to send a message that we don't have any money. AF bands and TIB should be canx'd for the same reason. We're making either/or choices based on someone's whim. For instance, at my place, you now have pay $2 as an active duty guy, to swim laps. The auto hobby shop is closed permanently but they just dropped another couple million into the golf course.

Dickie
09-06-2013, 01:41 PM
This is a perception thing. If we're broke, let's act like we're broke. Can we afford TIB? Of course we can. Can we afford flyovers at sporting events or Thunderbirds shows? Of course. Those were canx'd to send a message that we don't have any money. AF bands and TIB should be canx'd for the same reason. We're making either/or choices based on someone's whim. For instance, at my place, you now have pay $2 as an active duty guy, to swim laps. The auto hobby shop is closed permanently but they just dropped another couple million into the golf course.

Similar thing at my base. We couldn't afford to mow the grass but we are returfing the football field.

Pullinteeth
09-06-2013, 01:52 PM
Same with the furlough. They made it hurt as much as they possibly could-threatened to close the CDC, closed the commissary 2 days a week, had everyone take the same day off....

Bunch
09-06-2013, 02:47 PM
Yes cost. Wrap your jazz handed brain around it. There are many "costs" to these gifted people. Nothing like sitting on ramp at XYZ deployed location after 5-8 months of actual work only to see the C-17 fly away with these fine individuals on it. Guess I'll get the next one.

So you assume that because they are in TIB they have never or will never deploy in their AFSC? I understand the cost arguement but the "I really deployed they don't!!" is just lame.



Cost can refer to something other than a monetary value. I'm sure akruse was referring to the cost of losing an abled body, coworkers having to pick up slack left behind by TIB member, etc.

He didn't said so but I give you that is implied. All I say in this particular arguement is that is not like TIB goes out snatching people out of work centers. I believe everyone here knows how the process works, so for a CC to approve a member to go do this I imagine that he spoke to the member supervisor and then using his own judgement decided to approve or dissaprove.

Look, you can sit here a rail or you want against TIB because is a program that cost money and given the current budget climate it might seem like a waste of money for some maybe many out there but I will leave this topic saying this... What some people see like a waste of money other people find value in it, some other people find it an incentive, a benefit. So before you start going out there raising the "cost" card to take another service member perceived incentive or benefits away think about those benefits or incentives that YOU will be willing to give away too. If you aren't willing to give any your just a hypocrite. If we start fighting among us about cut this, cut that, we just making it easier on Big Blue to chip away at those things that we really like and enjoy. Today might be TIB, tomorrow might be TA, next day could be TRICARE, then retirment, because you will always find someone to rail against a particular benefit and is usually the person that least gets affected by a particular program the one that rails against it the most.

PburghNo1
09-06-2013, 02:48 PM
This is a perception thing. If we're broke, let's act like we're broke. Can we afford TIB? Of course we can. Can we afford flyovers at sporting events or Thunderbirds shows? Of course. Those were canx'd to send a message that we don't have any money. AF bands and TIB should be canx'd for the same reason. We're making either/or choices based on someone's whim. For instance, at my place, you now have pay $2 as an active duty guy, to swim laps. The auto hobby shop is closed permanently but they just dropped another couple million into the golf course.

NAF vs. APF--completely different.

Also, APF funding was cut for lifeguards. So the choice then becomes: Charge to generate NAF funds for lifeguards and stay open OR close.

Pullinteeth
09-06-2013, 03:45 PM
FYI, TIB postponed their 60th anniversary tour until 1 Oct. So it appears that those in charge saw it as an extra and cut their travel. Of course they still have all the performers/technicians/drivers etc getting paid to do nothing but....

20+Years
09-06-2013, 04:13 PM
So you assume that because they are in TIB they have never or will never deploy in their AFSC? I understand the cost arguement but the "I really deployed they don't!!" is just lame.




He didn't said so but I give you that is implied. All I say in this particular arguement is that is not like TIB goes out snatching people out of work centers. I believe everyone here knows how the process works, so for a CC to approve a member to go do this I imagine that he spoke to the member supervisor and then using his own judgement decided to approve or dissaprove.

Look, you can sit here a rail or you want against TIB because is a program that cost money and given the current budget climate it might seem like a waste of money for some maybe many out there but I will leave this topic saying this... What some people see like a waste of money other people find value in it, some other people find it an incentive, a benefit. So before you start going out there raising the "cost" card to take another service member perceived incentive or benefits away think about those benefits or incentives that YOU will be willing to give away too. If you aren't willing to give any your just a hypocrite. If we start fighting among us about cut this, cut that, we just making it easier on Big Blue to chip away at those things that we really like and enjoy. Today might be TIB, tomorrow might be TA, next day could be TRICARE, then retirment, because you will always find someone to rail against a particular benefit and is usually the person that least gets affected by a particular program the one that rails against it the most.

I'm willing to give away my TIB benefit.

DWWSWWD
09-06-2013, 04:43 PM
NAF vs. APF--completely different.

Also, APF funding was cut for lifeguards. So the choice then becomes: Charge to generate NAF funds for lifeguards and stay open OR close. I'm so tired of hearing about different pots of money. You're right though. I chose that example because because it is glaring and pervasive. The argument that I made to the CCM was that the pool for active-duty lap swimmers is usually as an extension of the fitness center. Often times it's what people do to stay in shape when they are hurt and can't run. He said the same as you, that it was either that or close. I told him and I'll offer it to you, that he is full of shit if he thinks $10 a week from the 10 active duty guys that swim laps constitutes that particular either/or argument.

Check this out from the APF file..... Our Chiefs' Group adopted a street. ON BASE! So did the Top 3 and AFSA. Each sent an e-mail to the members bitching that noone stayed after the meeting to go clean their street. No shit.

Pullinteeth
09-06-2013, 04:49 PM
Also, APF funding was cut for lifeguards. So the choice then becomes: Charge to generate NAF funds for lifeguards and stay open OR close.

:bsflag:

Wrong....there is a third choice. Stay open and people swim at their own risk. Thousands of pools across the country remain open despite the lack of lifeguards.

PburghNo1
09-06-2013, 05:06 PM
I'm so tired of hearing about different pots of money. You're right though. I chose that example because because it is glaring and pervasive. The argument that I made to the CCM was that the pool for active-duty lap swimmers is usually as an extension of the fitness center. Often times it's what people do to stay in shape when they are hurt and can't run. He said the same as you, that it was either that or close. I told him and I'll offer it to you, that he is full of shit if he thinks $10 a week from the 10 active duty guys that swim laps constitutes that particular either/or argument.

Check this out from the APF file..... Our Chiefs' Group adopted a street. ON BASE! So did the Top 3 and AFSA. Each sent an e-mail to the members bitching that noone stayed after the meeting to go clean their street. No shit.

I'll buy that--the lap swim times could be utilized free of charge to AD Airmen (reserves on orders, etc too) as a fitness function--I never thought of it that way. Unfortunately, what you might hear from FSS is that it could drive a small rise in price to the remainder of the customer base ($.25, maybe). All depending on customer utilization (# of lifeguards per swimmer--they can get expensive) and the health of your base's MWRF. I'd have to see the #s for the location--doesn't seem like a bridge too far, though.

Adopted a street? WTF?

PburghNo1
09-06-2013, 05:15 PM
:bsflag:

Wrong....there is a third choice. Stay open and people swim at their own risk. Thousands of pools across the country remain open despite the lack of lifeguards.


You beat me to it.

No need for lifeguards for grown-ups swimming laps. Although I'm sure it's required by some AFI.

Unfortunately, yes...know it makes no sense, but it's there.

AFI 34-110: "3.4.3.1. During adult lap swimming or adult instructional programs with less than 20 participants, at least one lifeguard is required to be on duty and at his or her station."

ttribe
09-06-2013, 05:20 PM
I remember the flurry of E9 emails when TIB came to my base several years ago. He needed a dozen of our youngest and brightest to "Volunteer" to help TIB load in and out. They would be rewarded with a nice bullet for use in a "schmuck of the month/quarter" write -up or in thier EPR. Ive never been highly encouraged enough to see their show. The powers that be were doing good to get me to commander calls.

I can't imagine some young impressionable mind thinking that "hey I'll join the AF" after seeing a TIB show in their town. I saw the T-Birds at the Richards-Gebaur Airshow in 72 or 73. They were Phantoms back then. That stuck with me and helped cement my decision to join up.

Pullinteeth
09-06-2013, 05:32 PM
Unfortunately, yes...know it makes no sense, but it's there.

AFI 34-110: "3.4.3.1. During adult lap swimming or adult instructional programs with less than 20 participants, at least one lifeguard is required to be on duty and at his or her station."

Did you happen to read who the AFI applies to? I know it is a typo but according to the AFI, the only people it applies to are Air National Guard members that are mobilized. Nowhere does it say it applies to ADAF, civilians, or Reservists-at ANY time...

This Air Force Instruction (AFI) implements Air Force Policy Directive (AFPD) 34-1, Air Force Services Combat Support Programs, and provides guidance for managing Air Force outdoor recreation facilities and programs. This publication is only applicable to the Air National Guard upon mobilization. This publication may be supplemented at any level, but all supplements must be routed to the Office of Primary Responsibility (OPR) of this publication for coordination prior to certification and approval.

Whereas 36-2905 (fitness) says;

This instruction applies to all Regular Air Force (RegAF), Air Force Reserve (AFR) and Air National Guard (ANG) members, except where noted otherwise.

36-2903 says;

"It applies to all active duty Air Force members, members of the Air Force Reserve Command and members of the Air National Guard, retired and separated members."

While they are fixing that, they could just as easily add that their "unguarded swimming areas/swim-at-your-own risk" can be applied to pools as well as natural swimming areas... "problem" solved.


You beat me to it.

No need for lifeguards for grown-ups swimming laps. Although I'm sure it's required by some AFI.

Only if you are in the ANG and on mobilization orders apparently...

PburghNo1
09-06-2013, 05:51 PM
Did you happen to read who the AFI applies to? I know it is a typo but according to the AFI, the only people it applies to are Air National Guard members that are mobilized. Nowhere does it say it applies to ADAF, civilians, or Reservists-at ANY time...

This Air Force Instruction (AFI) implements Air Force Policy Directive (AFPD) 34-1, Air Force Services Combat Support Programs, and provides guidance for managing Air Force outdoor recreation facilities and programs. This publication is only applicable to the Air National Guard upon mobilization. This publication may be supplemented at any level, but all supplements must be routed to the Office of Primary Responsibility (OPR) of this publication for coordination prior to certification and approval.

Whereas 36-2905 (fitness) says;

This instruction applies to all Regular Air Force (RegAF), Air Force Reserve (AFR) and Air National Guard (ANG) members, except where noted otherwise.

36-2903 says;

"It applies to all active duty Air Force members, members of the Air Force Reserve Command and members of the Air National Guard, retired and separated members."

While they are fixing that, they could just as easily add that their "unguarded swimming areas/swim-at-your-own risk" can be applied to pools as well as natural swimming areas... "problem" solved.



Only if you are in the ANG and on mobilization orders apparently...


Yeah, poor wording. I think they meant, "It doesn't apply to ANG unless they're mobilized."

I'm with you about the unguarded swimming areas. If we can designate some as "swim at your own risk", why not all?

Pullinteeth
09-06-2013, 06:09 PM
Yeah, poor wording. I think they meant, "It doesn't apply to ANG unless they're mobilized."

I'm with you about the unguarded swimming areas. If we can designate some as "swim at your own risk", why not all?

Oh, I know what they MEANT but if you read that paragraph in other AFIs, it says who it applies to....and includes ALL that it applies to. Some even specify who it DOESN'T apply to. This one? Just says one group that it applies to which by exclusion, means it doesn't apply to anyone else...

Drackore
09-06-2013, 08:51 PM
Never been to TIB...never will.

BigBaze
09-06-2013, 09:30 PM
So now is about cost!?

yes, we have flown them multiple times on the KC-10, and I do mean as dedicated airlift to them, with no external customers. That means flying to Lackland, picking them up and taking them on their world tour, ending up in some very nice places, staying at some very nice hotels, which means a ton of per diem and a ton of money for gas, landing fees etc. Now ask yourself is that worth the money? From my standpoint, being in a flying squadron and seeing flying hours being slashed for actual training and worthwhile missions, I say no.

akruse
09-06-2013, 09:45 PM
So you assume that because they are in TIB they have never or will never deploy in their AFSC? I understand the cost arguement but the "I really deployed they don't!!" is just lame.




He didn't said so but I give you that is implied. All I say in this particular arguement is that is not like TIB goes out snatching people out of work centers. I believe everyone here knows how the process works, so for a CC to approve a member to go do this I imagine that he spoke to the member supervisor and then using his own judgement decided to approve or dissaprove.

Look, you can sit here a rail or you want against TIB because is a program that cost money and given the current budget climate it might seem like a waste of money for some maybe many out there but I will leave this topic saying this... What some people see like a waste of money other people find value in it, some other people find it an incentive, a benefit. So before you start going out there raising the "cost" card to take another service member perceived incentive or benefits away think about those benefits or incentives that YOU will be willing to give away too. If you aren't willing to give any your just a hypocrite. If we start fighting among us about cut this, cut that, we just making it easier on Big Blue to chip away at those things that we really like and enjoy. Today might be TIB, tomorrow might be TA, next day could be TRICARE, then retirment, because you will always find someone to rail against a particular benefit and is usually the person that least gets affected by a particular program the one that rails against it the most.

Get with it. The cuts are here. There are more coming. They just closed our base library for good. That effects many many times more just on one base than the 100 or less "gifted" Airmen who joined the military but decided they want to sing and dance while in versus pulling their weight. Cut it. The slippery slope argument doesn't work here. We're already headed down the slope. Send these gifted individuals back to their JOBS and let them sing and dance off duty. You haven't given one ounce of evidence how the TIB help the war fighter.

In regards to them not deploying, they don't deploy when in TIB so thats pretty cut and dry. Regardless of how often they deployed before or after TIB, they required some other Airmen to pick up their slack so they could sing and dance. My sitting on the ramp issue was in regards to what BigBaze mentioned, they take up airlift. Airlift that could have brought someone home from their deployment but instead they get to see them pack up and go after a couple nights on base. CUT IT OUT.

OtisRNeedleman
09-07-2013, 12:39 AM
Get with it. The cuts are here. There are more coming. They just closed our base library for good. That effects many many times more just on one base than the 100 or less "gifted" Airmen who joined the military but decided they want to sing and dance while in versus pulling their weight. Cut it. The slippery slope argument doesn't work here. We're already headed down the slope. Send these gifted individuals back to their JOBS and let them sing and dance off duty. You haven't given one ounce of evidence how the TIB help the war fighter.

In regards to them not deploying, they don't deploy when in TIB so thats pretty cut and dry. Regardless of how often they deployed before or after TIB, they required some other Airmen to pick up their slack so they could sing and dance. My sitting on the ramp issue was in regards to what BigBaze mentioned, they take up airlift. Airlift that could have brought someone home from their deployment but instead they get to see them pack up and go after a couple nights on base. CUT IT OUT.

The base library was closed!?! Utterly disgusting. Libraries are one of the best things a base, town, or city does for their residents. Libraries can be used by everyone, minimal effort required.

tiredretiredE7
09-07-2013, 03:43 AM
In response to criticism about the TopsinBlue[“AirForceToons,”Aug. 12; and airforcetimes.com/Flightlines], I challenge anyone to spend one week on tour with us, specifically in a deployed location.

"It’s clear some people do not have any idea what the program is about and the positive impact it has on our troops.

I wish people knew what it was like to see tears running down the faces of our troops on Christmas Day at Kunsan Air Base in South Korea while they feel a little bit of home during a show, or the look of relief on the faces of those deployed to base XYZ who are getting a chance to relax for the first time in weeks or months.

I would be curious to see who could handle the physical challenge of a typical day on tour. This is anything but a group of prima donnas who show up at a base for the glitz and glam.

The show is only 1.5 hours. The other 22.5 hours of the day are grueling, but the team voluntarily takes it on to be there for our troops and their families.

Next time you have an idea to disrespect an organization you don’t understand, do some research first.

Master Sgt. Tammara M. LaMar (ret.)

Tampa, Fla."

Dear MSgt LaMar and all Tops in Blue members,

While it is true that I don't understand how Tops in Blue operates, I do know that your shows suck. Anytime that Tops in Blue perform anywhere that I am, I am embarrassed to be wearing the same uniform as you in front of sister service members. A whole week on tour with you in a deployed location? Newsflash: we're already there when you show up, breeze into town, get the royal treatment, stay for a week, get your IDP & Family Sep for the month (and maybe a medal), and go back home; while we stay there for a whole tour. The reason that you might see tears on the faces of those you perform for is probably because they are forced to watch you stumble through a ridiculous dance routine, or warble some outdated show tune instead of being home with their family or spending time doing anything else that is fun. I would be curious to see any of you handle the physical challenge of typical day in nearly any other actual job in the AF or any other service. You are prima donnas that do nothing impactful for the USAF. If you want to sing and dance, then please sing and dance... somewhere else. If you want to be in the military, then contribute to the mission of your selected service. Your audiences are typically rent-a-crowds that don't really want to be there and your performances are lame. You are a waste of military resources. I wholeheartedly disrespect your organization and will not do any research on it because, quite frankly, I don't care. Tops in Blue is an absolute waste of time, money, and manpower.

Bring on the hate...

I saw tow TIB shows and the performances were absolutely horrible and an embarrassment to the USAF. Disbanding TIB is a great place to start the cuts.

Drackore
09-07-2013, 06:49 AM
I am hearing people saying it isn't costing the taxpayer any money. Really? Who is paying the TIB performer? Nuff said. I want my Amn back.

I have never and never will approve or concur a TIB application package. Period. N-E-V-E-R. Put that in a song and stick it in your windpipe.


I saw tow TIB shows and the performances were absolutely horrible and an embarrassment to the USAF. Disbanding TIB is a great place to start the cuts.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-07-2013, 07:39 AM
I am hearing people saying it isn't costing the taxpayer any money. Really? Who is paying the TIB performer? Nuff said. I want my Amn back.

I have never and never will approve or concur a TIB application package. Period. N-E-V-E-R. Put that in a song and stick it in your windpipe.

We had a member in our unit go on T.I.B. and our CC supported it. It was a big deal too. Our unit proudly displays the T.I.B. plaque the member received during the tour. We were even fortunate enough to have the member stop by the unit during the tour and the T.I.B. team performed at our squadron.

Regardless of your opinion on T.I.B., the Air Force doesn't expend much money into the program because most of it is paid for by sponsors. I can tell you this, those that are on the team work very hard. They put in lots of hours behind the scenes. It's exhausting, but rewarding work. You have to have a special skill set to be on that team.

Drackore
09-07-2013, 08:59 AM
I have to have people carry an extra work load and fill in an extra deployment spot so someone else can work exhausting hours singing and dancing.

Read the comments. No one that "matters" likes TIB. By "matter", I mean the people they claim they are doing these shows for. The upper echelon people that toot the pro-TIB horn and saying TIB is a morale booster that should be supported are deaf and blind. They order people to attend. They order people to assist in these stage buildings and equipment movements. So these people who are ordered to sit in the seats and suffer through the shows are pretty well sick of it. Then they go back to the jobs...and some of those people are going back to the jobs that they got stuck with so their TIB coworker can jet off to their next location.

We've been shrinking this "world's greatest AF" since 9/11...and we're getting ready to shrink it another 40k! Wake the fuck up. No one is shrinking add'l duties, ancillary training, or other mindless bullcrap. Hell we just added MICT. Great idea...poor execution because now we have mindless assholes that make up checklists and say "You have to do these". Half these fucking checklists make no goddamn sense and I am spending countless manhours researching AFIs just to try to figure out what the checklist item means because there is no sanity check. Some moron gave a blank check to the MICT overseers and said "make checklists to your heart's content and they shall be mandatory for all, with no excuses or waivers or common sense required".

So again...it's not just about the money. Taxpayers are still paying our paychecks. Taking a military member out of their job so they can sing and dance is NOT what the taxpayers are paying their military to do. I am surely not charged as a SNCO to do half the shit that I do either...but one thing I will never fucking support is another out-of-hide body to go support TIB when I don't even have enough to do the job as it is.

OP is right. TIB can STFU and disband. We as an AF has FAR much more pressing matters to be concerns with, and TIB isn't on the top 1000 issues of importance. TIB is 100% irrelevant to everything Air Force. You want morale downrange? I can give you morale downrange:

1) Free time
2) Reliable internet to video chat home to spouse/kids/mom/dad
3) USO/AFE visits: Cheerleaders, comedians, celebrities
4) 1 wk R&R away from the FOB you've been stuck on

TIB? No thx. I'll volunteer for tower duty instead...even if it's not needed.


We had a member in our unit go on T.I.B. and our CC supported it. It was a big deal too. Our unit proudly displays the T.I.B. plaque the member received during the tour. We were even fortunate enough to have the member stop by the unit during the tour and the T.I.B. team performed at our squadron.

Regardless of your opinion on T.I.B., the Air Force doesn't expend much money into the program because most of it is paid for by sponsors. I can tell you this, those that are on the team work very hard. They put in lots of hours behind the scenes. It's exhausting, but rewarding work. You have to have a special skill set to be on that team.

AERYCK13
09-07-2013, 10:15 AM
All I'm saying is free or not, cost or not; these shows are the worst asshattery and buffoonery I have ever been forced to witness. The bottom line is it's poor entertainment that NO ONE would actually volunteer to go see, much less pay for (unless you vacation in Branson maybe...) NO ONE wants to listen to show tunes and bad covers of used-to-be-relevant songs. NO ONE wants to watch you prance around on the stage the WE HAVE TO BUILD for you and call it dancing. The shows that I have been voluntold to attend made me want to unlace my boots and go Ariel Castro right there in the seats... Why is the AF funding this still? This, amongst other programs, should have gone away years ago... This is the big, red, squeaky, clown nose of the AF. I HATE TOPS IN BLUE!!! I just vomited...

Pullinteeth
09-07-2013, 12:29 PM
I can tell you this, those that are on the team work very hard. They put in lots of hours behind the scenes. It's exhausting, but rewarding work. You have to have a special skill set to be on that team.

According to the OP, they work 24 hours a day while on tour. Surely you don't support such a schedule? With that type of gueling schedule, I am literally shocked that anyone survives.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-07-2013, 12:36 PM
I have to have people carry an extra work load and fill in an extra deployment spot so someone else can work exhausting hours singing and dancing.

Read the comments. No one that "matters" likes TIB. By "matter", I mean the people they claim they are doing these shows for. The upper echelon people that toot the pro-TIB horn and saying TIB is a morale booster that should be supported are deaf and blind. They order people to attend. They order people to assist in these stage buildings and equipment movements. So these people who are ordered to sit in the seats and suffer through the shows are pretty well sick of it. Then they go back to the jobs...and some of those people are going back to the jobs that they got stuck with so their TIB coworker can jet off to their next location.

We've been shrinking this "world's greatest AF" since 9/11...and we're getting ready to shrink it another 40k! Wake the fuck up. No one is shrinking add'l duties, ancillary training, or other mindless bullcrap. Hell we just added MICT. Great idea...poor execution because now we have mindless assholes that make up checklists and say "You have to do these". Half these fucking checklists make no goddamn sense and I am spending countless manhours researching AFIs just to try to figure out what the checklist item means because there is no sanity check. Some moron gave a blank check to the MICT overseers and said "make checklists to your heart's content and they shall be mandatory for all, with no excuses or waivers or common sense required".

So again...it's not just about the money. Taxpayers are still paying our paychecks. Taking a military member out of their job so they can sing and dance is NOT what the taxpayers are paying their military to do. I am surely not charged as a SNCO to do half the shit that I do either...but one thing I will never fucking support is another out-of-hide body to go support TIB when I don't even have enough to do the job as it is.

OP is right. TIB can STFU and disband. We as an AF has FAR much more pressing matters to be concerns with, and TIB isn't on the top 1000 issues of importance. TIB is 100% irrelevant to everything Air Force. You want morale downrange? I can give you morale downrange:

1) Free time
2) Reliable internet to video chat home to spouse/kids/mom/dad
3) USO/AFE visits: Cheerleaders, comedians, celebrities
4) 1 wk R&R away from the FOB you've been stuck on

TIB? No thx. I'll volunteer for tower duty instead...even if it's not needed.

Quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel...

akruse
09-07-2013, 12:42 PM
We had a member in our unit go on T.I.B. and our CC supported it. It was a big deal too. Our unit proudly displays the T.I.B. plaque the member received during the tour. We were even fortunate enough to have the member stop by the unit during the tour and the T.I.B. team performed at our squadron.

Regardless of your opinion on T.I.B., the Air Force doesn't expend much money into the program because most of it is paid for by sponsors. I can tell you this, those that are on the team work very hard. They put in lots of hours behind the scenes. It's exhausting, but rewarding work. You have to have a special skill set to be on that team.

What special skill set would that be?

RetC141BFCC
09-07-2013, 03:18 PM
Hey I wonder how many people in TIB fail there PT test? Thats what the AF cares about most right? Or due they work to many hours to test?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-07-2013, 03:29 PM
Hey I wonder how many people in TIB fail there PT test? Thats what the AF cares about most right? Or due they work to many hours to test?

People who have PT issues don't usually get selected for TIB, T-birds, or any other special program. And yes, people in these programs still have to test like everyone else.

jshiver15
09-07-2013, 06:36 PM
My opinion? Get rid of them. There is quite simply no value add. If even the TIB members are whining and complaining that they have to work 24 hours a day, it should go. That is inhumane. Surely you don't think anyone should have to work 24 hours a day do you? I know several people that tried out (and made TIB) but myself, I haven't seen them once and honestly, I don't think I know anyone that has (voluntarily).

This. If people are working that hard and still aren't accepted, then where is the benefit for anybody? It's the same as tasking people to carry rocks back and forth in a field for hours on end. Just because they're working hard doesn't mean anything is actually getting done.

imported_AFKILO7
09-09-2013, 09:51 PM
Hahahahahaha... I have met many Ssgt's, TSgt's and MSgt's that have NOT served in TIB and dont know shit about their jobs!!! This arguement doesnt hold any water... Either you learn your job or you dont!! Thats an individual responsibilty!!
1. I was merely stating an opinion, wasn't looking to try and dissuade anyone from one stance to my own.
2. My point was (as a 3P0) there are people heading out the door fairly consistently and if the one or two or how ever many are in TiB where able bodies and could deploy they should go.
3. During a time when our "leaders" are concerned about numbers and money...TiB should've been put on hold along with AF sports teams.

Pullinteeth
09-10-2013, 12:33 AM
1. I was merely stating an opinion, wasn't looking to try and dissuade anyone from one stance to my own.
2. My point was (as a 3P0) there are people heading out the door fairly consistently and if the one or two or how ever many are in TiB where able bodies and could deploy they should go.
3. During a time when our "leaders" are concerned about numbers and money...TiB should've been put on hold along with AF sports teams.

Their tour was...them getting paid to do nothing...? Not so much.

imported_AFKILO7
09-10-2013, 02:15 AM
Their tour was...them getting paid to do nothing...? Not so much.

??

BRUWIN
09-10-2013, 03:00 AM
I have to have people carry an extra work load and fill in an extra deployment spot so someone else can work exhausting hours singing and dancing.



Do you think it is easy memorizing and practicing dance routines? Take it from me...modern dance routines are not easy. You have it easy during deployments but TIB does not stop for an entire year. I don't know if it's been brought up...but TIB works very hard.

BOSS302
09-10-2013, 08:07 AM
Do you think it is easy memorizing and practicing dance routines? Take it from me...modern dance routines are not easy. You have it easy during deployments but TIB does not stop for an entire year. I don't know if it's been brought up...but TIB works very hard.

Alright BRUWIN, you have gone from regular fishing and have become this:


http://assets3.howtospendit.ft-static.com/images/05/22/47/05224790-3f95-415c-aa95-2af3bf635cfc_seven_hundred.jpeg

StuporFly
09-10-2013, 09:14 AM
Only 35 people per year are selected among all ranks from all components of the Air Force including Guard and Reserve. About 60-70% are SrA and below or 1st Lt. and below. Are units going to implode because they don't have these vital inexerperienced people to hold the workcenter together? The cost is pocket change (about 200k) compared to the billions wasted by our Congress. Why should we cut unique and historical programs for the mess the politicians made not the people participating. Times are tight, but we're still spending millions to buy our allies. What's a few more bucks for some extra PR and entertainment for the families abroad? Why bash the people who sieze the opportunity to participate?

Stalwart
09-10-2013, 10:19 AM
Why should we cut unique and historical programs for the mess the politicians made not the people participating.

Because they are congress and we are the military; that is our role in the way of things.


Times are tight, but we're still spending millions to buy our allies. What's a few more bucks for some extra PR and entertainment for the families abroad? Why bash the people who sieze the opportunity to participate?

In the current financial climate, we have to take a look at everything and apply some business sense to what we spend money on. If we don't begin to be more frugal on our own, Congress will step in with their authority and cut -- either across the board sequester-style, just zeroing out line items in the appropriations bills or specifically targeting programs with phrases in bills like "no funds will be expended for the procurement of or the sustainment of [program]."


Why bash the people who sieze the opportunity to participate?

I think very few were bashing the people themselves, but acknowledging if we are cutting operational programs all over the place, programs like this one (TIB) should be scrutinized.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-10-2013, 10:48 AM
Only 35 people per year are selected among all ranks from all components of the Air Force including Guard and Reserve. About 60-70% are SrA and below or 1st Lt. and below. Are units going to implode because they don't have these vital inexerperienced people to hold the workcenter together? The cost is pocket change (about 200k) compared to the billions wasted by our Congress. Why should we cut unique and historical programs for the mess the politicians made not the people participating. Times are tight, but we're still spending millions to buy our allies. What's a few more bucks for some extra PR and entertainment for the families abroad? Why bash the people who sieze the opportunity to participate?

If TIB did Monty Python skits, you'd have my full support.

There is just too damn much singing and dancing though.

Now, it would be okay to have singing and dancing if you had some guy like the King of Swamp Castle run on stage and stop everyone from singing just as they are about to launch into a song.

That is what I think.

TJMAC77SP
09-10-2013, 10:55 AM
Only 35 people per year are selected among all ranks from all components of the Air Force including Guard and Reserve. About 60-70% are SrA and below or 1st Lt. and below. Are units going to implode because they don't have these vital inexerperienced people to hold the workcenter together? The cost is pocket change (about 200k) compared to the billions wasted by our Congress. Why should we cut unique and historical programs for the mess the politicians made not the people participating. Times are tight, but we're still spending millions to buy our allies. What's a few more bucks for some extra PR and entertainment for the families abroad? Why bash the people who sieze the opportunity to participate?

Numbers aren't really the main point being raised here and I suggest you research the cost a little deeper. Hell that 200K gets burned before the C-17 finishes it's second leg of the first trip.

AERYCK13
09-10-2013, 10:57 AM
Only 35 people per year are selected among all ranks from all components of the Air Force including Guard and Reserve. About 60-70% are SrA and below or 1st Lt. and below. Are units going to implode because they don't have these vital inexperienced people to hold the work center together? The cost is pocket change (about 200k) compared to the billions wasted by our Congress. Why should we cut unique and historical programs for the mess the politicians made not the people participating? Times are tight, but we're still spending millions to buy our allies. What's a few more bucks for some extra PR and entertainment for the families abroad? Why bash the people who seize the opportunity to participate?

I never said it was because of budget shortfalls. I did say it was a waste of military resources. But I meant it more so like jshiver15 put it:

"This. If people are working that hard and still aren't accepted, then where is the benefit for anybody? It's the same as tasking people to carry rocks back and forth in a field for hours on end. Just because they're working hard doesn't mean anything is actually getting done. "

They are poor entertainment at best and a drain on military resources in a time of high ops tempo. You did get one thing right; it is a historic program... from the 1950's. And it shows every time they perform their out-dated routines. The Tops in Blue are an anachronistic, expendable waste of personnel.

AERYCK13
09-10-2013, 11:00 AM
I think very few were bashing the people themselves, but acknowledging if we are cutting operational programs all over the place, programs like this one (TIB) should be scrutinized.

I was bashing the people themselves... Did you watch that video on page 1???

Stalwart
09-10-2013, 11:11 AM
I was bashing the people themselves... Did you watch that video on page 1???

Yes, the video and the letter in the OP were not helping the case.

Drackore
09-10-2013, 05:23 PM
Wow I think I literally popped an eye out of it's socket. SrA and below for an entire year = vital inexperience. Right. Well fuck it all - that's where the AF can save money - get rid of all fucking Amn...they have no experience! Comment #1 leading me to believe you aren't that bright. Yes, I'm going to be a meanie head. Buckle up.

#2: Unique and historical programs should be kept at all costs because they are unique and historical?? Seriously? TIB may have been liked and useful a long time ago...but no one likes them now except the people that are told to like them by the people that are told to like them by the one person that still likes them. Seriously. Work stops because TIB comes to town...then people have to work late to catch up so they can be forced to go to a show they have no desire to go see - that ultimately sucks to begin with? I'm not saying this to be "mean" (even though I am being mean here). I saw the Youtube videos, I hear the comments, I talk to people. No one ever says "Damn that show was good....glad I went!" or "Boy I was wrong about TIB. They put on a good show!" I mean...no one has ever told that to me...ever. It even makes me wonder why we continue to do air shows. They cost too much money. We've lost planes and lives. What's the point? To make people oooh and ahhh that we can make a hunk of metal do corkscrews in the sky? Might have been impressive back in 196daddy'sage...but today it isn't really worth it. I haven't met a single Amn that told me they enlisted because they saw an Air Show or the AF symbol on a NASCAR car. We're wasting money....in disgusting amounts.

I am not bashing anyone for participating. I am bashing people, like you, who think it's worth keeping. I am bashing people who continually bleed my work centers dry of people but want me to keep performing like I have 1990 levels of manning with today's work load of nonsense and bullshit and then chew my ass out when shit doesn't get done on their unrealistic timelines.

You've hear the phrase...goes something like: We will do the impossible, with too little, for the unappreciative...etc etc. And you want me to give a fuck about people that do TIB? Spare me.


Only 35 people per year are selected among all ranks from all components of the Air Force including Guard and Reserve. About 60-70% are SrA and below or 1st Lt. and below. Are units going to implode because they don't have these vital inexerperienced people to hold the workcenter together? The cost is pocket change (about 200k) compared to the billions wasted by our Congress. Why should we cut unique and historical programs for the mess the politicians made not the people participating. Times are tight, but we're still spending millions to buy our allies. What's a few more bucks for some extra PR and entertainment for the families abroad? Why bash the people who sieze the opportunity to participate?

20+Years
09-10-2013, 05:55 PM
I would like to see the flying cost for TIB. Fuel + crew + space. I bet that $200K number would fly right out the window.

People make stats look good to benefit the project. <cough cough EPR>

ttribe
09-10-2013, 08:34 PM
I would like to see the flying cost for TIB. Fuel + crew + space. I bet that $200K number would fly right out the window.

People make stats look good to benefit the project. <cough cough EPR>

Being conservative, a C-17 runs around $20000 per flight hour. There are alot of factors that bump that number higher, but not too many that make it lower than that.

Pullinteeth
09-10-2013, 09:03 PM
Being conservative, a C-17 runs around $20000 per flight hour. There are alot of factors that bump that number higher, but not too many that make it lower than that.

I can think of one.... It would cost us a flight crew and aircraft but....

jshiver15
09-12-2013, 03:51 PM
Only 35 people per year are selected among all ranks from all components of the Air Force including Guard and Reserve. About 60-70% are SrA and below or 1st Lt. and below. Are units going to implode because they don't have these vital inexerperienced people to hold the workcenter together? The cost is pocket change (about 200k) compared to the billions wasted by our Congress. Why should we cut unique and historical programs for the mess the politicians made not the people participating. Times are tight, but we're still spending millions to buy our allies. What's a few more bucks for some extra PR and entertainment for the families abroad? Why bash the people who sieze the opportunity to participate?

So, what you're getting at is that these young men and women should be pulled from their job at the most vital point of their career? What's going to happen when they get back to their unit and they're so far behind and discouraged that they decide this enlistment is a one-and-done? So, at the taxpayer's expense, they had money invested in them to train and become proficient members of the military, but instead they got paid to go to BMT, probably received ROTC scholarships (for the officers), train in their respective AFSCs, PCS to a new unit, then spend a year singing and dancing, only to come back and decide the military isn't for them? So at this point, they've contributed nothing to the Air Force.

Reaching, I know .. but the same thing happened to two people I know who did the AF Honor Guard.

BRUWIN
09-13-2013, 11:38 AM
Wow I think I literally popped an eye out of it's socket. SrA and below for an entire year = vital inexperience. Right. Well fuck it all - that's where the AF can save money - get rid of all fucking Amn...they have no experience! Comment #1 leading me to believe you aren't that bright. Yes, I'm going to be a meanie head. Buckle up.

#2: Unique and historical programs should be kept at all costs because they are unique and historical?? Seriously? TIB may have been liked and useful a long time ago...but no one likes them now except the people that are told to like them by the people that are told to like them by the one person that still likes them. Seriously. Work stops because TIB comes to town...then people have to work late to catch up so they can be forced to go to a show they have no desire to go see - that ultimately sucks to begin with? I'm not saying this to be "mean" (even though I am being mean here). I saw the Youtube videos, I hear the comments, I talk to people. No one ever says "Damn that show was good....glad I went!" or "Boy I was wrong about TIB. They put on a good show!" I mean...no one has ever told that to me...ever. It even makes me wonder why we continue to do air shows. They cost too much money. We've lost planes and lives. What's the point? To make people oooh and ahhh that we can make a hunk of metal do corkscrews in the sky? Might have been impressive back in 196daddy'sage...but today it isn't really worth it. I haven't met a single Amn that told me they enlisted because they saw an Air Show or the AF symbol on a NASCAR car. We're wasting money....in disgusting amounts.

I am not bashing anyone for participating. I am bashing people, like you, who think it's worth keeping. I am bashing people who continually bleed my work centers dry of people but want me to keep performing like I have 1990 levels of manning with today's work load of nonsense and bullshit and then chew my ass out when shit doesn't get done on their unrealistic timelines.

You've hear the phrase...goes something like: We will do the impossible, with too little, for the unappreciative...etc etc. And you want me to give a fuck about people that do TIB? Spare me.

TIB work very hard.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-13-2013, 01:31 PM
BRUWIN

Amen!

I think a lot of the people in here are being cyber bullies to the TIB airmen just because they dance and sing.

I wish I could make them sit down and watch all the episodes of Glee.

Then maybe they would understand how dedicated the TIB airmen are.

meatbringer
09-13-2013, 07:18 PM
I was invited to go to TIB when I was in basic training. My MTI chose me and a couple other recruits who were not complete idiots. My MTI assured me that there would be candy bars there so I figured I'd check it out. Never before have I witnessed such a waste of time and resources in my entire life. I would have rather done pushups and shined my boots rather than sit through that complete horse shit. Also, there were no candy bars...

I also went through a course with a heavies electircian who told me that he and his crew had been tasked to fly the clowns from TIB around to their shows. He told me that they were the most stuck up, disrespectful, and rude group of people he had ever met. This inidividual was also one of the most kind and quiet people I have ever met, so for him to lash out about them like he did speaks volumes. He also said how they seriously thought that they were rock stars and treated everyone like shit.

Drackore
09-13-2013, 07:54 PM
TIB work very hard.

Soon you'll tell me that GS civilians work hard too. :scool:

20+Years
09-13-2013, 08:03 PM
Soon you'll tell me that GS civilians work hard too. :scool:

The day civilians work hard is the day we will be allowed to wear beards.

RetC141BFCC
09-14-2013, 01:59 PM
The day civilians work hard is the day we will be allowed to wear beards.

Well remember I am a ROF but I have worked with plenty of ARTS in both AMC and MAC who were very hard working. If they are still at McGoo you would have to start growing a beard.

BRUWIN
09-14-2013, 03:09 PM
BRUWIN

Amen!

I think a lot of the people in here are being cyber bullies to the TIB airmen just because they dance and sing.

I wish I could make them sit down and watch all the episodes of Glee.

Then maybe they would understand how dedicated the TIB airmen are.

They are very dedicated. The last time I was at a TIB show I brought the cub scouts to hand out programs. One thing that struck me was if one of the scouts asked an audience member coming into the hangar if they wanted a program, 75% of those audience members would have to pull out their earplugs to understand what the scout was asking them and then they put them back in. If they just took the earplugs out for the entire show they would marvel at the talent. And next time I'm there with the scouts I am gonna confiscate smart phones. You cant watch football on your smart phone and expect the TIB experience to come to you. You have make an effort get the full experience of TIB before you can really and truly appreciate it.

Capt Alfredo
09-14-2013, 09:53 PM
I wonder if TIB gets groupies. Probably not.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-15-2013, 05:34 PM
I was invited to go to TIB when I was in basic training. My MTI chose me and a couple other recruits who were not complete idiots. My MTI assured me that there would be candy bars there so I figured I'd check it out. Never before have I witnessed such a waste of time and resources in my entire life. I would have rather done pushups and shined my boots rather than sit through that complete horse shit. Also, there were no candy bars...



I went to see TIB while in basic, but we were ordered to sit at attention and keep our eyes caged. You probably did too, which explains why you didn't enjoy the show.

imnohero
09-15-2013, 06:45 PM
Bru, are you sure you're using the right hook?

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/pile-random-fishing-hooks-14826836.jpg

Pullinteeth
09-16-2013, 12:42 PM
I wonder if TIB gets groupies. Probably not.

Maybe a Post 9/20 Airman?

wxjumper
09-16-2013, 03:24 PM
I was invited to go to TIB when I was in basic training. My MTI chose me and a couple other recruits who were not complete idiots. My MTI assured me that there would be candy bars there so I figured I'd check it out. Never before have I witnessed such a waste of time and resources in my entire life. I would have rather done pushups and shined my boots rather than sit through that complete horse shit. Also, there were no candy bars...

I also went through a course with a heavies electircian who told me that he and his crew had been tasked to fly the clowns from TIB around to their shows. He told me that they were the most stuck up, disrespectful, and rude group of people he had ever met. This inidividual was also one of the most kind and quiet people I have ever met, so for him to lash out about them like he did speaks volumes. He also said how they seriously thought that they were rock stars and treated everyone like shit.The oldest trick in the book.

ttribe
04-30-2014, 08:17 PM
From AFTIMES http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140430/NEWS/304300045/Over-Tops-morale-boost-some-waste-others

Is Sinbad really the guy you want to trot out as a good example of Air Force alumni? His Wiki says he got booted after a few AWOL's and other offenses. It looks like he never wanted to be in the AF anyways. Tops in Blue and he tried to make the Basketball team. Some Booms I used to fly with knew him and didn't have much to say about him as a flyer. But apparently he was funny. I wonder if his favorite joke was "Knock Knock? Whos there? It's Sinbad the Boom dinging the shit out of your jet with the boom nozzle?"

Measure Man
04-30-2014, 09:39 PM
Joanell Jacques, who was on the 2012 Tops in Blue tour, wrote on AirForceTimes.com. “They literally work 24 hours a day.”

Literally? Literally 24 hours a day? I don't think so, Tim.


Jacques said ...“...I have seen people wait in lines for hours just to see a show"

I think Jacques is a little prone to hyperbole.

It's been a few years, but I used to go to Tops in Blue whenever they were in town...the shows were generally pretty enjoyable and cast is talented...and I'm sure they work hard and are dedicated. I don't think they really impacted my morale or anything...and I certainly wouldn't have waited in line for hours to see one.

I think, for the most part, TIB is a great opportunity for those who get to be in it, but, like a lot of other things, it's probably time for it to go. They Airmen can still visit hospitals on their own volunteer time.

needmorecowbell
05-01-2014, 06:20 AM
I agree that the American taxpayer is having their money wasted on these shows and airshows. NAF money or not, money is still being wasted.

However, I think their are some solutions that could make everyone happy:

#1 "Tops In Blue" vs the "Soldiers Show" in a fight to the death. Whoever, wins get's to keep on singing. Fine, a dance-off, but there better be some blood involved.
#2 Blue Angels vs Thunder-chickens in aerial combat/dogfight. I can't believe this hasn't happened already, right!? I mean, how hard do you get watching an airplane fly by you 20 times in a row? Come on narrow it down to one group..(Thunder Angels)

Either way at the end of the day, when the batteries die in the wireless microphones of TIB or the Thunderbirds run low on fuel........ being stationed at Fort Irwin, still sucks (true story).

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-01-2014, 11:55 AM
Like I said in an earlier post, the people who go to these shows are from three main demographics:

1. Senior citizens
2. Children under 10
3. Airmen who are "highly encouraged"

Please don't ever try to convince me that it's a recruiting tool. NOBODY of recruitable age is attending....except children of SNCOS and Officers who were "highly encouraged" to attend, then forced their kids to go too.

Stalwart
05-01-2014, 01:20 PM
1. Senior citizens
2. Children under 10
3. Airmen who are "highly encouraged"

#1. is probably because the show is very similar to the types of travelling USO tours that went around in the 40's, 50's & 60's. I went to one of these once and it just wasn't my thing, but it seemed that the format of the show was very dated.

Are something like the Thunderbirds a thing that more Air Force active duty would attend?

When I was in the Marines, when the Silent Drill Team came there was no compulsory attendance and those were always packed.

Giant Voice
05-01-2014, 01:21 PM
They Airmen can still visit hospitals on their own volunteer time.

When my daughter was in the hosiptal for an extended time, some uniformed personnel(all services) came to visit the childrens ward. Those kids could have cared less if they were part of some special group. They were just happy that they were visited. I love the audacity of these special military groups that flaunt the fact that they do charity work. As if nobody else in the military does this service.

imported_DannyJ
05-01-2014, 01:23 PM
Never have been and if I have a choice in the matter, never will go. I strongly believe there isn't room in the military for this kind of thing anymore. I fail to see what singing and dancing have to do with the Air Force mission. Cut it. If these folks want to be in entertainment or see it, there are plenty of opportunities in the civilian sector. The USO brings plenty of well know acts to the AOR and OCONUS all the time.

Chief_KO
05-01-2014, 03:20 PM
Here's thought...
Combine all the "Service Show groups" into one "American Forces Show" group. We (DoD) are no longer big enough to afford (personnel-wise) the drain for each branch to have it's own traveling talent show.
While the debate will always rage it these, the aerial teams, parachute teams, NASCAR sponsorship is worth it (recruiting wise), there is some PR value and morale boost (for those on the team and for those who attend).
Is the morale boost as high as if ________ (fill in the blank big name performer) sang/danced/told jokes at Base "X"? Of course not, but there is some...

Mjölnir
05-01-2014, 04:17 PM
Or even a good USO group. there has to be some entertainer(s) who is currently less than gainfully occupied. I would imagine they can use appearances as tax write-offs based on their normal income from a paid appearance.

jshiver15
05-01-2014, 04:59 PM
From AFTIMES http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140430/NEWS/304300045/Over-Tops-morale-boost-some-waste-others

Is Sinbad really the guy you want to trot out as a good example of Air Force alumni? His Wiki says he got booted after a few AWOL's and other offenses. It looks like he never wanted to be in the AF anyways. Tops in Blue and he tried to make the Basketball team. Some Booms I used to fly with knew him and didn't have much to say about him as a flyer. But apparently he was funny. I wonder if his favorite joke was "Knock Knock? Whos there? It's Sinbad the Boom dinging the shit out of your jet with the boom nozzle?"

Ok, I couldn't read past the part where Jacques said that people wait in line for hours and that they preform in front of audiences that genuinely want to be there. She is either completely delusional or Air Force Times did a very fantastic job at making her sound like a complete moron. Especially with saying “They literally work 24 hours a day."

Me thinks you don't know what the definition of "literally" is.

SomeRandomGuy
05-01-2014, 05:18 PM
Especially with saying “They literally work 24 hours a day." Me thinks you don't know what the definition of "literally" is.

http://explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Matt/Literally-a-comic.png

Measure Man
05-01-2014, 06:34 PM
Some one mentioned Kid Rock? I saw that guy at Ramstein, it's easy to see why he is a star, that dude has got some serious charisma going on. He was there with a few other celebs, Lewis Black, Kelly Pickler, some comedian and maybe one other...but that Kid Rock has got like an aura or something around him...serious magnetic personality and talent.

I do remember he was pissed off at his judge though...he wanted to count his USO tour as his court-ordered community service and the judge wouldn't allow it, saying it was part of his profession or something...lol. So, he was all "F- Judge Carmichael...I love doing this, but I'm not getting paid"...LOL

That is one cool M-Fer. I'm not even a fan of his music, but he is entertaining as all get-out.

TJMAC77SP
05-01-2014, 08:14 PM
Ok, I couldn't read past the part where Jacques said that people wait in line for hours and that they preform in front of audiences that genuinely want to be there. She is either completely delusional or Air Force Times did a very fantastic job at making her sound like a complete moron. Especially with saying “They literally work 24 hours a day."

Me thinks you don't know what the definition of "literally" is.

While you were channeling Sheldon Cooper there I couldn't agree more.

jshiver15
05-01-2014, 08:17 PM
While you were channeling Sheldon Cooper there I couldn't agree more.

http://static.topnettools.com/5.jpg

Chief_KO
05-01-2014, 10:03 PM
I was "pro" TIB till I read the article, especially the IG complaint, waste, etc. I would support disbanding IF every dollar is turned directly around and put back into MWR (and future MWR funding includes the TIB "kicker"). But, alas if TIB is disbanded, that $ would not find it's way back to supporting the Airmen & their families...it would buy a couple of valve stem caps for the next generation "what ever."

Measure Man
05-01-2014, 10:28 PM
I was "pro" TIB till I read the article, especially the IG complaint, waste, etc. I would support disbanding IF every dollar is turned directly around and put back into MWR (and future MWR funding includes the TIB "kicker"). But, alas if TIB is disbanded, that $ would not find it's way back to supporting the Airmen & their families...it would buy a couple of valve stem caps for the next generation "what ever."

The NAF money would probably stay with NAF (for morale and stuff)...that seems to be the bulk of their budget.

The appropriated money Im sure would go toward those valve stem caps as it should :-)

fufu
05-01-2014, 11:05 PM
If you want to see if TIB is worth keeping, there is one simple way:

Charge admission.

If they can generate the money to pay for their act, travel, per diem, airlift, etc....then they can stay. If not, pound sand.

OtisRNeedleman
05-02-2014, 01:01 AM
If you want to see if TIB is worth keeping, there is one simple way:

Charge admission.

If they can generate the money to pay for their act, travel, per diem, airlift, etc....then they can stay. If not, pound sand.

Good idea, if attendance isn't mandated.

cloudFFVII
05-02-2014, 01:49 PM
In response to criticism about the TopsinBlue[“AirForceToons,”Aug. 12; and airforcetimes.com/Flightlines], I challenge anyone to spend one week on tour with us, specifically in a deployed location.

"It’s clear some people do not have any idea what the program is about and the positive impact it has on our troops.

I wish people knew what it was like to see tears running down the faces of our troops on Christmas Day at Kunsan Air Base in South Korea while they feel a little bit of home during a show, or the look of relief on the faces of those deployed to base XYZ who are getting a chance to relax for the first time in weeks or months.

I would be curious to see who could handle the physical challenge of a typical day on tour. This is anything but a group of prima donnas who show up at a base for the glitz and glam.

The show is only 1.5 hours. The other 22.5 hours of the day are grueling, but the team voluntarily takes it on to be there for our troops and their families.

Next time you have an idea to disrespect an organization you don’t understand, do some research first.

Master Sgt. Tammara M. LaMar (ret.)

Tampa, Fla."

Dear MSgt LaMar and all Tops in Blue members,

While it is true that I don't understand how Tops in Blue operates, I do know that your shows suck. Anytime that Tops in Blue perform anywhere that I am, I am embarrassed to be wearing the same uniform as you in front of sister service members. A whole week on tour with you in a deployed location? Newsflash: we're already there when you show up, breeze into town, get the royal treatment, stay for a week, get your IDP & Family Sep for the month (and maybe a medal), and go back home; while we stay there for a whole tour. The reason that you might see tears on the faces of those you perform for is probably because they are forced to watch you stumble through a ridiculous dance routine, or warble some outdated show tune instead of being home with their family or spending time doing anything else that is fun. I would be curious to see any of you handle the physical challenge of typical day in nearly any other actual job in the AF or any other service. You are prima donnas that do nothing impactful for the USAF. If you want to sing and dance, then please sing and dance... somewhere else. If you want to be in the military, then contribute to the mission of your selected service. Your audiences are typically rent-a-crowds that don't really want to be there and your performances are lame. You are a waste of military resources. I wholeheartedly disrespect your organization and will not do any research on it because, quite frankly, I don't care. Tops in Blue is an absolute waste of time, money, and manpower.

Bring on the hate...

First off, it's hard to say if that quote from the MSgt was taken out of context, but telling someone to "do some research" before showing disrespect assumes one has no clue about TIB, and that people are stupid. And that's definitely not the leadership qualities I have been taught in my career. Generally speaking, picking a fight with people is not exactly the best way to gain support for your cause...

I view TIB much in the same way I view the impacts that Enlisted and Officer clubs had in their heydays. The Enlisted and Officer clubs were packed. More mentoring and careers were saved through "mentoring" at the Enlisted/O-Clubs then people brought into the AF by TIB EVER. Yet, over time, the world has changed and unfortunately the E and O clubs are hanging on (mostly) because of functions. It's definitely not because of the food..

Secondly, one cannot "work" 24 hours a day. At some point, the body must sleep or it dies (Witness all the gamers that die or get hospitalized in critical condition after playing for 72 hours straight or more). So that's very much an overexaggeration. Do they work 14-16 hours days? Most assuredly. Is what they do easy? Not saying that. However, I'd ventue a guess the PJ's, Combat Controllers, Security Forces, EOD, Maintenance, Intel, Comm, and other career fields in the deployed locations have it far more rough then the value added by TIB visiting, and by the missions they accomplish.

Finally, I have to agree about the cost. We are forcing many of our bright individuals, both officer and enlisted (not to mention our civilian counterparts caught in in their own RIF's) who contribute greatly and effectively to our mission, out of the Air Force against their will through the Review Boards that are coming and other force management programs, because we cannot afford the force we agreed we had to manage. Yet people who are in TIB will largely be uneffected and will have a job to go back to when their tour is done.

Some have said TIB hasn't made an impact; I disagree with that. In its time and day, I'm certain people DID want to go out and see Tops in Blue.

However, in 2014, with so many other things going on out there, it just seems like an idea whose time has come and gone. Everything has to come to an end. It just seems like it should be that time for TIB. Plenty of professional athletes and stars through the USO and other agencies are going abroad to support us. Let the USO do what it does best: Support our forward deployed Airmen, Sailors, Soliders and Marines. Allow TIB to have one big farewell tour, prop up their budget for that tour, go all out and then spin it down. It deserves at least that for the many years it has contributed to MWR.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-02-2014, 04:41 PM
First off, it's hard to say if that quote from the MSgt was taken out of context, but telling someone to "do some research" before showing disrespect assumes one has no clue about TIB, and that people are stupid. And that's definitely not the leadership qualities I have been taught in my career. Generally speaking, picking a fight with people is not exactly the best way to gain support for your cause...

I view TIB much in the same way I view the impacts that Enlisted and Officer clubs had in their heydays. The Enlisted and Officer clubs were packed. More mentoring and careers were saved through "mentoring" at the Enlisted/O-Clubs then people brought into the AF by TIB EVER. Yet, over time, the world has changed and unfortunately the E and O clubs are hanging on (mostly) because of functions. It's definitely not because of the food..

Secondly, one cannot "work" 24 hours a day. At some point, the body must sleep or it dies (Witness all the gamers that die or get hospitalized in critical condition after playing for 72 hours straight or more). So that's very much an overexaggeration. Do they work 14-16 hours days? Most assuredly. Is what they do easy? Not saying that. However, I'd ventue a guess the PJ's, Combat Controllers, Security Forces, EOD, Maintenance, Intel, Comm, and other career fields in the deployed locations have it far more rough then the value added by TIB visiting, and by the missions they accomplish.

Finally, I have to agree about the cost. We are forcing many of our bright individuals, both officer and enlisted (not to mention our civilian counterparts caught in in their own RIF's) who contribute greatly and effectively to our mission, out of the Air Force against their will through the Review Boards that are coming and other force management programs, because we cannot afford the force we agreed we had to manage. Yet people who are in TIB will largely be uneffected and will have a job to go back to when their tour is done.

Some have said TIB hasn't made an impact; I disagree with that. In its time and day, I'm certain people DID want to go out and see Tops in Blue.

However, in 2014, with so many other things going on out there, it just seems like an idea whose time has come and gone. Everything has to come to an end. It just seems like it should be that time for TIB. Plenty of professional athletes and stars through the USO and other agencies are going abroad to support us. Let the USO do what it does best: Support our forward deployed Airmen, Sailors, Soliders and Marines. Allow TIB to have one big farewell tour, prop up their budget for that tour, go all out and then spin it down. It deserves at least that for the many years it has contributed to MWR.

My question is, where is the outpouring of support from those who value TIB? I remember the AF once polled its members on the value of various base services (library, auto hobby, etc). How about a poll to determine the value of TIB? Based on the overwhelming negative feedback received so far from both Airmen and former TIB members, I suspect a poll would reveal overwhelming support for discontinuing TIB. Just my hunch.

imported_DannyJ
05-02-2014, 05:13 PM
My question is, where is the outpouring of support from those who value TIB? I remember the AF once polled its members on the value of various base services (library, auto hobby, etc). How about a poll to determine the value of TIB? Based on the overwhelming negative feedback received so far from both Airmen and former TIB members, I suspect a poll would reveal overwhelming support for discontinuing TIB. Just my hunch.

TIB probably has the same approval ratings as congress.

BURAWSKI
05-02-2014, 06:31 PM
Probably TIB is supported by the Air Force heirarchy, but not the airmen or even former TIB members. I suppose it is kind of tough to say you don't like TIB when the CO and/or Commander is supporting them. Maybe that shows another sign of the disconnect between the senior officers and the airmen.

Rusty Jones
05-02-2014, 06:38 PM
Here's thought...
Combine all the "Service Show groups" into one "American Forces Show" group. We (DoD) are no longer big enough to afford (personnel-wise) the drain for each branch to have it's own traveling talent show.
While the debate will always rage it these, the aerial teams, parachute teams, NASCAR sponsorship is worth it (recruiting wise), there is some PR value and morale boost (for those on the team and for those who attend).
Is the morale boost as high as if ________ (fill in the blank big name performer) sang/danced/told jokes at Base "X"? Of course not, but there is some...


BURAWSKI, Stalwart; do we have an equivalent to Tops in Blue in the Navy? If there is one, I've never heard of it.

Max Power
05-02-2014, 06:58 PM
BURAWSKI, Stalwart; do we have an equivalent to Tops in Blue in the Navy? If there is one, I've never heard of it.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/15/article-1303248-0ACDBF70000005DC-789_468x332.jpg

BURAWSKI
05-02-2014, 07:21 PM
Funny! -- The only thing that comes to mind is the United States Navy Band. I don't think we have a TIB equivalent since we have always relied on the USO for entertainment when forward deployed.

Rusty Jones
05-02-2014, 07:56 PM
Funny! -- The only thing that comes to mind is the United States Navy Band. I don't think we have a TIB equivalent since we have always relied on the USO for entertainment when forward deployed.

I imagine that even if the Navy did have an equivalent, that only those deployed on carriers would get to the see them. Or also FMF and Seabees if it consists of both Sailors and Marines, like the Blue Angels.

Either way, I'm perfectly fine with that. Another perk for small boys.

Stalwart
05-02-2014, 08:19 PM
Not that I know of.

Gonzo432
05-03-2014, 10:31 AM
Is TIB any different from all the additional duties that never go away? Once something starts it never goes away. When did it start? Who thought of it? Why? Are they still associated with Big Blue? Are they at Bob Hope Village? Still alive? We can't touch the sacred cows that are AF Bands and those positions are on UMDs. TIB is,,,, what is it?

Chief_KO
05-03-2014, 12:49 PM
At least TIB follows AF instructions regarding utilizing personnel outside of their AFSC...unlike the command chief exec, group exec, wing exec...and many base honor guards.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-03-2014, 12:54 PM
At least TIB follows AF instructions regarding utilizing personnel outside of their AFSC...unlike the command chief exec, group exec, wing exec...and many base honor guards.

How so? One of our AGE troops went to TIB and he stayed on our books (UPMR) until he returned and PCS'd.

Chief_KO
05-03-2014, 12:55 PM
Some interesting tidbits from the TIB website:
"Major Al Reilly (retired has a Colonel) created the Air Force Worldwide Talent Contest in 1953 to recognize talented airmen in various categories ranging from comedy, drama, vocals, gospel, vocal and instrumental groups, country and western, and several others. His idea was to discover the highest caliber of entertainment and provide it for Air Force families throughout the world, thus the phrase “family entertaining family” was first adopted in the new Air Force talent program. Furthermore, Maj. Reilly knew there were many athletic competitions, there was nothing for those who were not athletic." Spell check please..retired AS a Colonel

"From 1958 through 1971, TOPS IN BLUE teams used other forms of entertainment mediums, other than live tours, to entertain Air Force families stationed throughout the world."

"In 1971, Heinz Johnson, then Recreation Director at Air Force headquarters, gained the support of the Air Force to re-establish the live TOPS IN BLUE tours.

The long awaited, re-developed TOPS IN BLUE made its live tour debut in 1972 under the direction of then Staff Sergeant Tom Edwards. (Mr. Edwards still leads the organization as a civilian.)"

Chief_KO
05-03-2014, 12:58 PM
How so? One of our AGE troops went to TIB and he stayed on our books (UPMR) until he returned and PCS'd.

Yes that is correct. When I said they follow AFI guidance, I am referring to local MPS, MAJCOM CFM, & AFPC approval. If I remember correctly the AFI states any usage outside of PAFSC longer than 121 days requires approval. Never heard of any of those "must have" execs ever getting said approval.

Chief_KO
05-03-2014, 12:59 PM
Disclaimer: Those "Exec" positions are a pet peeve of mine.