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View Full Version : Juicy bars: Air Force puts squeeze on businesses linked to human trafficking



Measure Man
09-03-2013, 04:32 PM
...........

sandsjames
09-03-2013, 04:59 PM
Only 10 Juicy bars left in Songtan? Wow.

Well, probably the right thing to do here, I guess. Never heard of a juicy bar that didn't promote prostitution.

This should reduce the number of marriages while stationed there.

Rusty Jones
09-03-2013, 05:18 PM
So, I'm hearing 7 AF put out a order memo...that it is now prohibited for provide money or anything of value to an employee or establishment for company or companionshipt...to include, pay a fee for darts, pool...buying a drink or other souvenir, etc.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out...

They need to do something like this stateside, but without limiting it to establishments or employees thereof. Too many simps with zero streetsmarts getting taken for a ride by women out in town.

sandsjames
09-03-2013, 05:38 PM
They need to do something like this stateside, but without limiting it to establishments or employees thereof. Too many simps with zero streetsmarts getting taken for a ride by women out in town.

They get what they deserve...

BISSBOSS
09-03-2013, 05:47 PM
Man...

I was at Kunsan in the mid eighties... I could SWEAR they had "Dancers" in the club on base...

-BB-

Rusty Jones
09-03-2013, 05:56 PM
They get what they deserve...

I think that way myself... but is this really the right way to think?

It - and this is a genuine concern, I promise - can affect mission readiness. We've all seen people lose security clearances over this kind of thing.

Mcjohn1118
09-03-2013, 06:20 PM
OK, so it was between 1994-95 and there were numerous Juicy Bars outside the gates of Osan. I was TDY and was eating brunch at the O-Club on Sunday morning. I swear the there were a few waitresses that were moonlighting as juicy girls the night before. I don't know if this is still the case but if so, is Osan going to fire these workers? Does the base control the hiring of LNs or TCNs for certain facilities?

Greg
09-03-2013, 06:22 PM
They get what they deserve...

You're really on a roll, today. I thought you were retired.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-03-2013, 07:58 PM
Man...

I was at Kunsan in the mid eighties... I could SWEAR they had "Dancers" in the club on base...

-BB-

They used to have strippers at the club on Camp Bullis, Texas in the 1980s... I doubt they were victims of human traffickers but you never know.

Back to PACAF: I can’t wait until a slick law firm gets ahold of this and files a lawsuit against DOD for reparations on behalf of the juicy girls because they helped facilitate this tragedy for so long.

garhkal
09-03-2013, 08:25 PM
That would be funny to see.
But i actually agree with this. Since the DOD got hot n bothered about making us take those 'anti trafficing' courses and singing off on the page 13s for it, it's about time they also started enforcing it by hitting those juciy bars.

sharkhunter
09-03-2013, 09:02 PM
Wonder if the DoD can now focus on the bars/clubs off base in Germany. Not necessarily at just the AF bases, but the Army Posts as well.

sandsjames
09-03-2013, 09:36 PM
I think that way myself... but is this really the right way to think?

It - and this is a genuine concern, I promise - can affect mission readiness. We've all seen people lose security clearances over this kind of thing.

I just prefer to have adults make decisions for themselves, even if it's the wrong decision. Brief them when they get there about the dangers, what to look for, etc. Then...let them make their own choices.

sandsjames
09-03-2013, 09:37 PM
You're really on a roll, today. I thought you were retired.

I AM RETIRED!!! It's official 2 days ago. Got the blue card and everything.

sandsjames
09-03-2013, 10:26 PM
I think that way myself... but is this really the right way to think?

It - and this is a genuine concern, I promise - can affect mission readiness. We've all seen people lose security clearances over this kind of thing.

I've also seen people lose clearances over alcohol related incidents. Does that mean we ban drinking everywhere? Or do we expect people to not be stupid?

Mr. Happy
09-03-2013, 11:47 PM
I'm amazed it took this long for them to get this serious about it. They (i.e., leadership) always sort of turned a blind eye to it over all the years; and even frequented these places themselves. Not going to lie, I did three tours to the ROK, and I occasionally went into these places with friends, but I was never a "regular" by any definition. Just as guilty though whether I went once or 100 times. In most peoples' eyes, since these women were part of these sleazy establishments in the first place and sucked the money out of GIs, it probably desensitized most to their real life plights.

Most of the time during my tours, I mainly partied around base at the club, hooches or a select few clubs down town that weren't centered around Juicey Girls. I found the Juicey club environments to be annoying so I mainly hung out at some rock themed bars outside of base when I did go down town like the old Heavy Metal bar, Easy Riders and the Dragon Dart Club (pre-juicey era). Some people really got wrapped up into that scene and claimed those girls were "girlfriends", and they normally dropped thousands of dollars to make that claim. Nothing was reality in those bars.

Airborne
09-03-2013, 11:56 PM
While Im against human trafficking, I am totally against this idea. Too many reasons to name but some have been named here. Grown people decisions should equal grown people consequences. If some A1C loses his paycheck to a juicy because it was his first piece then thats his problem. Its already a high stress environment with a super low penis/vagina ratio so best to have an outlet.

efmbman
09-04-2013, 12:25 AM
I think that way myself... but is this really the right way to think?

It - and this is a genuine concern, I promise - can affect mission readiness. We've all seen people lose security clearances over this kind of thing.

I'm torn to be honest. I see your point of view and I agree with sandjames - adults should make their own choices. That being said, when I was in Germany my post was 40 km from the Czech border. Many GIs would go over for the weekend and come back with some "burning issues" (I was a medic for most of my 22 years). We had repeat customers and when it peaked, we decided to place a large bowl of condoms by the pharmacy since it was around the corner and discretion could be used to grab some on the way out. Naturally, some officer wives were offended that we were promoting sexual activity. We replied with the safe sex mantra, force protection, etc. NOGO. Condoms were ordered removed.

Many duty hours were lost as soldiers were treated and recovered from STDs. One poor guy even had a testicle removed in the German Krankenhous. Which is the right course of action?

Airborne
09-04-2013, 12:50 AM
Where do you draw the line? There are spas outside of the gate at Keesler that have trafficked girls? Germany has been mentioned. What about Nellis/Las Vegas? The street outside of Hurlburt or Ft Benning? Prostitution is the worlds oldest profession for a reason. I hate the fact that the morality is governed, especially when we try to govern it countries where we are a guest.

Gonzo432
09-04-2013, 12:51 AM
While Im against human trafficking, I am totally against this idea. Too many reasons to name but some have been named here. Grown people decisions should equal grown people consequences. If some A1C loses his paycheck to a juicy because it was his first piece then thats his problem. Its already a high stress environment with a super low penis/vagina ratio so best to have an outlet.

Penis/vagina ratio, I can picture that on a Power Point slide at an in-processing briefing. They didn't call it that, but Iceland in 89 had that on a chart at Intro (not Power Point, not even Harvard Graphics, old-school flip charts.) And the ratio was 13:1!!

Absinthe Anecdote
09-04-2013, 01:10 AM
I have a hard time believing these girls have no idea what they are getting into. Maybe it happens, but if you have ever dated a philipino girl you'd know that they have a pretty good gossip network and I'd imagine they know what to expect when they get to Korea.

Not saying that some of them get treated like shit but to portray it as slavery like a passage of that article did is a bit much.

I could care less if the juicy bars go away but that is crappy reporting in that article if you ask me.

Stalwart
09-04-2013, 01:23 AM
I have a hard time believing these girls have no idea what they are getting into. Maybe it happens, but if you have ever dated a philipino girl you'd know that they have a pretty good gossip network and I'd imagine they know what to expect when they get to Korea.

Some do, some don't. I have read of some girls from Eastern Europe who fall prey to scams offering them work in hotels as housekeeping or bar staff that end up in pretty bad situations. In Spain at a convenience store I talked to a girl from Maldova who I am pretty sure had fallen prey to something along that line. At the same time, there are some that I would imagine know exactly what they are getting into and are either okay with it, or are just resigned to it.

The whole situation could stimulate a much bigger discussion than just the 7th AF policy.

eman_osan
09-04-2013, 01:41 AM
If anyone has a copy of the memo, please post it. Not to pay a fee to be on a darts/pool team seems a bit asinine.


So, I'm hearing 7 AF put out a order memo...that it is now prohibited for provide money or anything of value to an employee or establishment for company or companionshipt...to include, pay a fee for darts, pool...buying a drink or other souvenir, etc.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out...

Mr. Happy
09-04-2013, 01:49 AM
I have a hard time believing these girls have no idea what they are getting into. Maybe it happens, but if you have ever dated a philipino girl you'd know that they have a pretty good gossip network and I'd imagine they know what to expect when they get to Korea.

Not saying that some of them get treated like shit but to portray it as slavery like a passage of that article did is a bit much.

I could care less if the juicy bars go away but that is crappy reporting in that article if you ask me.

I agree they probably know to some extent what awaits them. Surely some of the returnees spread the word too. Some of these women come from such desperate situations and dire poverty in their home countries, I believe they are willing to endure this in Korea simply in hopes of meeting a GI who might marry them and take them to the states. It would be the equivalent of an American marrying a millionaire in terms of standard of living. Now for the sake of argument if one no kidding had their passports taken and they were "held against their will', then if I were them, I would make a run for my home country's embassy up in Seoul on one of those bar fined nights. Not being able to leave because their passport was "taken" is a bunch of bunk. People lose passports all the time in other countries and still make it out simply by visiting their consulate. I highly doubt their own embassy would force them to stay in country if they showed up at the gate and claimed being held against their will as a sex slave.

Rizzo77
09-04-2013, 01:58 AM
I just love the selective "enforced morality." The AF "leadership" should go after the clubs in Colorado Springs where former high school cheerleaders perform as pole dancers. They don't have THAT power, though, and I bet it just drives 'em up the wall. Well, too freakin' bad.

I wonder how many (non gay) AF Academy cadets you could find in such establishments....

Chief_KO
09-04-2013, 03:10 AM
Man...

I was at Kunsan in the mid eighties... I could SWEAR they had "Dancers" in the club on base...

-BB-

Osan had dancers in 85, gone when I returned in 89.

I bet Doc Fogelsong is smiling over this...

eman_osan
09-04-2013, 03:56 AM
Here's a little different take on the article from Stars & Stripes published in ROK Drop with comments from his readers.

by GI Korea in: Ville Files
Osan AB leadership are actually doing something I have been advocating for many years which is to put juicy bars that employ third country nationals off limits:



Juicy bars might soon be a thing of the past in the area just outside the gates here.

U.S. Air Force officials have in recent months been systematically putting the notorious bars in the Songtan Entertainment District off-limits and giving their owners a choice: Get rid of your juicy girls or American servicemen will not be allowed to patronize your establishments.

As a result, the number of juicy bars — where scantily clad women flirt with servicemen to get them to buy high-priced juice drinks for the hostesses in exchange for their company — has dropped from 44 to 10 over the past year outside Osan Air Base.

The vast majority of juicy girls employed at base-area bars in South Korea are Filipino, though there is a small percentage of Koreans and those of other nationalities working as the controversial hostesses who are brought here illegally and often linked to prostitution.

“I am very hopeful we will be reaching zero soon,” 51st Fighter Wing Mission Support Group commander Col. Michael Strunk said. “I’m hoping within a couple of months.” [Stars & Stripes]

I have long believed that the best way to handle the issue of human trafficking in the villes was to put clubs that hire third country nationals off limits. Most of the Filipina’s working in these clubs know what they are getting into despite the media claims. However, as long Filipinas are working in juicy bars there will continue to be the perception of human trafficking that will follow USFK that the media will continue to jump on. By forcing the bars to employ Korean workers it would pretty much make the human trafficking issue go away because Korean nationals are much harder to traffic in. The people that will lose if bars with 3rd country nationals are put off limits are the bar owners that will make less money because they will have to pay Korean women more money for doing the same thing these Filipina women are doing. In most cases it probably will not make economic sense for them to do so.

With that all said claims by Osan leadership that they are doing this to stop human trafficking rings pretty hollow. We all know they are doing this crackdown because of all the attention on the military sexual assault issue. When the issue with the juicy bars in Songtan first came up I said it was because of the sexual assault issue back in the US and this article confirms it. I said this because the special interests groups had already said they were going to next sensationalize the juicy girl issue to push their agenda and the Osan AB leadership just preempted them which was very smart on their part. However, I do view this statement in the article with skepticism:

Robert Woltman, a 51st Security Forces Squadron investigator, said, “They’re selling women for companionship. They are selling time with females, which is leading to sexual assaults down the road. That environment is moving on base.”

So what data proves this other than this investigator’s opinion? This would be a real easy fact to verify by seeing if USFK has a higher rate of sexual assaults than comparable state side units. Since no one is stating such a fact I take it this is not the case. So this is just an opinion just like someone stating taking away the juicy girls will cause more sexual assaults. Like I have written about before I believe that USFK does have special circumstances that contribute to sexual assaults happening which juicy girl has little to do with.

Something else I found absent in the article was why was there no discussion about why the Korean government is not enforcing their own anti-prostitution and human trafficking laws? The S&S should have at least tried to get a comment from a Korean government representative on this issue. It will also be interesting to see what will happen if the juicy bars just move out of the ville adjacent to Osan AB and further into Songtan? Will Osan leadership begin patrolling further into Songtan to identify these bars to put them off limits then?

Anyway change is coming and I think it is change that people should welcome.

So does anyone think Osan AB leadership should allow servicemembers to patronize juicy bars? If so why?

Tags: juicy girls, Osan, Osan AB, Songtan, ville
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18Retired GI
6:57 am on September 3rd, 2013 1 Close them down. I had a good time back in the day, when Koreans were working the bars.
I don’t enjoy the PI girls at all. If third country girls are all they have to offer, shut them down.

Bob
7:08 am on September 3rd, 2013 2 “By forcing the bars to employ Korean workers it would pretty much make the human trafficking issue go away because Korean nationals are much harder to traffic in.”

Not necessarily. Is it human trafficking if the women are forced into the business to pay off debts to associates of the bar owners?

tbonetylr
7:54 am on September 3rd, 2013 3 “When the issue with the juicy bars in Songtan first came up I said it was because of the sexual assault issue back in the US and this article confirms it.”

As I recall the issue came up because the human trafficking report was soon to be released.

“We all know they are doing this crackdown because of all the attention on the military sexual assault issue.”

I don’t! And you seem to confirm or question it with this…
“Something else I found absent in the article was why was there no discussion about why the Korean government is not enforcing their own anti-prostitution and human trafficking laws?”

Haven’t you also said this will just all go away and business will be as usual soon enough?

Angel of Retribution
9:14 am on September 3rd, 2013 4 “So does anyone think Osan AB leadership should allow servicemembers to patronize juicy bars? If so why?”

From what I’ve read, the juicy bar industry was encouraged (if not outright created) by the ROK government (with some US help) to shield the general ROK populace from horny 18 year old Americans.

Take away the juicies and Joes are going to put their attention on “regular” Korean girls which will likely get the general population up in arms. I suppose USFK could lock down all the Joes but that would likely piss off the US citizenry.

I think killing the juicy bar industry will lead to some serious friction down the road…

tom langley
12:18 pm on September 3rd, 2013 5 I agree with Angel of Retributions comment #4. If some dumbarse airman wants to spend C-5 transport loads of money to talk with some woman & maybe get a little tail down the road then who the foxtrot cares? As AOR notes the villes were put in place so the GI’s wouldn’t “contaminate” the local female population. When GI’s start paying a little bit too much attention to the local womenhood some manure is going to his the thresher.

JoeC
12:19 pm on September 3rd, 2013 6 From my non-data based observations it seems like the military’s reports of sexual assaults in Korea actually started increasing right around the same time they started to get more restrictive about bar fines.

The military might want to look into offering chastity belts as a uniform issue item for women.

tom langley
12:36 pm on September 3rd, 2013 7 JoeC #6, with the repeal of DADT they may need chastity belts with the block in the back as well as the front, lol.

Leon LaPorte
3:51 pm on September 3rd, 2013 8 I’ve commented on this issue til I’m blue in the face (fingers?). I have to agree with Joe. I’ll try to wait for the unforeseen repercussions to say “I told you so.” lol

Flyingsword
3:55 pm on September 3rd, 2013 9 Obviously there is not prostitution in Korea because prostitution is illegal in Korea….That is why there is no need for the Korean police to do anything.

Flyingsword
3:56 pm on September 3rd, 2013 10 Oh,

I also want to know when USFK will cancell the yearly trips by various cheerleader groups. Those programs objectify women and lead to sexual assaults also….I have no proof but I am sure of it!!!

Leon LaPorte
4:10 pm on September 3rd, 2013 11 “The presence of juicy girls that are contracted, whose passports are held by the bar owners, who are moved from city to city and bar to bar – it’s indentured servitude and it’s inconsistent with who we are as a service, and the standards we’re trying to establish on base and within the sphere of influence we have outside the gate,” he said.

INDENTURED SERVANT: a person who signs and is bound by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment of travel expenses and maintenance.
“Indentures could not marry without the permission of their owner … and saw their obligation to labor enforced by the courts. …servants were guaranteed to be eventually released from bondage. At the end of their term they received a payment known as ‘freedom dues’ and become free members of society.”

“In modern times, indentured servitude is limited to the military service of certain countries where the poor are disproportionately induced to agree to a fixed term of service in exchange for accommodation, food, and often education; a contract which may be enforced by the use of imprisonment. Military service can become involuntary slavery when soldiers are compelled to continue their service beyond the term of agreement (stop-loss).”

Isn’t the military, by this definition (or general understanding), a form of indentured servitude?

Do these guys think before they talk?

/dammit, couldn’t help myself.

Songtan Sally
4:20 pm on September 3rd, 2013 12 Wanna go?

Flyingsword
4:26 pm on September 3rd, 2013 13 No!

Baek, In-je
5:04 pm on September 3rd, 2013 14 Songtan Sally! You’d better lay that big ass down.
Wanna go, Saaaallly, yah!

Smokes
5:22 pm on September 3rd, 2013 15 Hmm did my original post about this in the open thread get deleted because it had the word “p3nis” in it? If that’s the case then that’s pretty f’ing weak, it’s a clinical term. Who’s to blame? Lazy configuration of the filter or nazi moderators… the world may never know.

Anyway…

I’m conflicted on the whole issue, on the one hand I hate that the military gets involved with off-base issues especially in other countries but on the other I don’t like that “not our women” mentallity that the bar owners employ by stocking the staff with foreign women only.

I had already zeroed in on that crap link established by Bob Woltman about how people paying for companionship off-base leads to sexual assaults on-base. Another reason why the military needs to be reeled in and reminded that they don’t make the rules outside the gate. Either fall in line and follow them or stay on base.

StKY
8:19 pm on September 3rd, 2013 16 If I was the Juicy Bar owners, I’d slap a Bible in the hands of every juicy girl and triple the prices of juice! (and halve the amount of clothes they wear….but that’s just personal taste.) Let those Dudley Do-Right jerk-offs come tell me I can’t have my girls preachin’ the good book for “donations” then I’d get the local media on the “Jesus hatin’ Americans”.

That’d stir the pot!

jslim
8:34 pm on September 3rd, 2013 17 no different that strip bars outside of bragg and hood
full of skanks

unless they are full service i say close them down!

Bones
8:35 pm on September 3rd, 2013 18 My take is that it was gettin more and more difficult to get the girls, to work in the clubs.Both the Korean and the Phillipine government started cracking down. The military is taking credit, when fact is it was dying out anyway. It would have went away on it’s own.



Only 10 Juicy bars left in Songtan? Wow.

Well, probably the right thing to do here, I guess. Never heard of a juicy bar that didn't promote prostitution.

Rizzo77
09-04-2013, 04:05 AM
Thanks for bringing in the Stars and Stripes crap.

Almost as good as the Army's Waste of Time.

bcoco14
09-04-2013, 04:43 AM
It's funny how some people in this thread cast judgement on others for having "girlfriends" as some how they are paying a prostitute to date them. He's a tidbit. if you have ever taken a girl out on a date and slept with her, you have paid for sex. I have worked with many people over the years who have married juicy girls, some of those marriages are over 10 years and still going. Others haven't worked out so well. It seems awful judgmental to cast an opinion of a relationship when you have no idea about said relationship. I can say I've seen more Tech school marriages go to shit than I have guys getting married to juicy's. I have known guys who have married strippers, basically the same thing, who have gone on to long lasting marriages and some who haven't. Who gives a shit who a person has a relationship with?

CJSmith
09-04-2013, 09:07 AM
My first weekend when I got to Oki we hit up a juicy bar. I didn't know wtf it was, just some random bar to me. Chicks were talking to us and rubbing our leg and generally interested. Then the mamasan came by and had us pay $10 for the girls drink, which was probably kool aid. I was like whatever and paid for it. About 15 minutes later she came by again wanting 10 more bucks. I looked at the other guys and said eff this, I'm out. I walked down the street to Martins Irish Bar and ended up hooking up with an American girl.

Next day I walked out of my room with the girl and saw the other guys smoking outside. I asked them how long they stayed at the juicy place and how much they spent. They were there for 3 hours and ended up shelling out over $200 with just a tug. I laughed and said well, my night was a quarter of that and I got the full course.

I never walked back into a juicy bar again, not even in Korea when TDY.

technomage1
09-04-2013, 09:48 AM
Wonder if they'll go after the massage parlors and double pole barber shops next?

TJMAC77SP
09-04-2013, 10:53 AM
My first weekend when I got to Oki we hit up a juicy bar. I didn't know wtf it was, just some random bar to me. Chicks were talking to us and rubbing our leg and generally interested. Then the mamasan came by and had us pay $10 for the girls drink, which was probably kool aid. I was like whatever and paid for it. About 15 minutes later she came by again wanting 10 more bucks. I looked at the other guys and said eff this, I'm out. I walked down the street to Martins Irish Bar and ended up hooking up with an American girl.

Next day I walked out of my room with the girl and saw the other guys smoking outside. I asked them how long they stayed at the juicy place and how much they spent. They were there for 3 hours and ended up shelling out over $200 with just a tug. I laughed and said well, my night was a quarter of that and I got the full course.

I never walked back into a juicy bar again, not even in Korea when TDY.

You asked them this while with the American girl you picked up?

TJMAC77SP
09-04-2013, 10:54 AM
Wonder if they'll go after the massage parlors and double pole barber shops next?

Ok, never did a far east tour...........double pole barber shop?

Absinthe Anecdote
09-04-2013, 11:12 AM
Ok, never did a far east tour...........double pole barber shop?

A barber shop with a brothel on the premises and he is just being snarky because those have been off limits to GI for a long time.

Besides, if you are a westerner chances are you wouldn't get anything beyond a haircut.

giggawatt
09-04-2013, 12:05 PM
It's funny how some people in this thread cast judgement on others for having "girlfriends" as some how they are paying a prostitute to date them. He's a tidbit. if you have ever taken a girl out on a date and slept with her, you have paid for sex. I have worked with many people over the years who have married juicy girls, some of those marriages are over 10 years and still going. Others haven't worked out so well. It seems awful judgmental to cast an opinion of a relationship when you have no idea about said relationship. I can say I've seen more Tech school marriages go to shit than I have guys getting married to juicy's. I have known guys who have married strippers, basically the same thing, who have gone on to long lasting marriages and some who haven't. Who gives a shit who a person has a relationship with?

I have never dropped whole paychecks to sleep with a girl I was dating who also may have been "seeing" other guys. That's just me though.

BOSS302
09-04-2013, 12:19 PM
"Juicy Girls" know what they are doing.

Young American military personnel of the male variety are accountable for their own actions off-base in a sovereign republic such as South Korea (why we are there in the first place is for another thread).

If they want to blow their dollars on hollow flirting & fake companionship that is contigent upon keeping the girl's cup full with vastly-overpriced juice - also known as "Friday night" in most college towns and city bar districts in the US - then so be it. The career reprocussions that may result from any financial hardships are lessons well-learned and a legitimate way of sifting the undesirables from the ranks of the Air Force should their actions continue to bring discredit to themselves.

BOSS302
09-04-2013, 12:21 PM
I have never dropped whole paychecks to sleep with a girl I was dating who also may have been "seeing" other guys. That's just me though.

It's almost amazing to see how well these women play these men. I don't know whether these "Juicy Girls" are simply that good/manipulative or if some young military men are that stupid/gullible.

giggawatt
09-04-2013, 12:28 PM
It's almost amazing to see how well these women play these men. I don't know whether these "Juicy Girls" are simply that good/manipulative or if some young military men are that stupid/gullible.

I'm gonna go with the latter.

Rusty Jones
09-04-2013, 12:36 PM
It's funny how some people in this thread cast judgement on others for having "girlfriends" as some how they are paying a prostitute to date them. He's a tidbit. if you have ever taken a girl out on a date and slept with her, you have paid for sex.

I don't really look at it like that, but I agree with the overall gist of what you're saying.

Personally, I wish that... not only would prostitution be legal, but that men utilizing their services would be a completely normal and regular thing.

According to literature that I've read, right up through the Victorian Era; married women didn't have sex with their husbands unless it was to have children. Their husbands would go find prostitutes. To some extent, this continued right up to Women's Lib in the 1960's - and there were still more states left where prostitution was legal.

My guess is that non-prostitute women wanted prostitution outlawed, so that they could have a monopoly on vagina. The result? Men engaging in self-destructive behavior to get laid, when they simply could have gone out to buy sex. These days, we think low of a guy who pays for sex... but we have zero probably with guys who will fuck their friends over (as long as it's not us), allow women to shit all over them, humiliate themselves, or fuck the biggest ugliest chick you've ever seen... all in the name of "not paying for it."

These women have shamed men out of "paying for it," so now you have to put up with their shit to get it. Why are there 400-lb women at Walmart with poor hygiene and no class... yet they've got children with them? Because they don't have to change a damn thing about themselves. They know that they're going to get some dick, regardless. A man would feel more dignified fucking her, than paying to have sex with someone who is actually attractive.

I'm telling you... legalize prostitution, and watch the overall quality of women improve literally overnight... because when they realize that they don't have the monopoly anymore, they're going to have to compete with prostitutes.

BRUWIN
09-04-2013, 12:37 PM
I have never dropped whole paychecks to sleep with a girl I was dating who also may have been "seeing" other guys. That's just me though.

If it wasn't for having to pay my beer tab every two weeks (back in the old days the Airmen/NCO clubs let you charge drinks) I'm afraid to think what other things I may have dumped that money into.

giggawatt
09-04-2013, 12:45 PM
I used to dump my paycheck at the NCO club on Lakenheath, clubs around Essex and East Anglia and paintball. This of course was all before I was married.

TJMAC77SP
09-04-2013, 01:40 PM
A barber shop with a brothel on the premises and he is just being snarky because those have been off limits to GI for a long time.

Besides, if you are a westerner chances are you wouldn't get anything beyond a haircut.

Wierd combination of services. Thanks for the information

BOSS302
09-04-2013, 02:05 PM
I used to dump my paycheck at the NCO club on Lakenheath, clubs around Essex and East Anglia and paintball. This of course was all before I was married.

Typical Power Pro. :behindsofa

20+Years
09-04-2013, 02:38 PM
One poor guy even had a testicle removed in the German Krankenhous. Which is the right course of action?

Best description ever for: Bust a Nut.

meatbringer
09-04-2013, 03:21 PM
I don't really look at it like that, but I agree with the overall gist of what you're saying.

Personally, I wish that... not only would prostitution be legal, but that men utilizing their services would be a completely normal and regular thing.

According to literature that I've read, right up through the Victorian Era; married women didn't have sex with their husbands unless it was to have children. Their husbands would go find prostitutes. To some extent, this continued right up to Women's Lib in the 1960's - and there were still more states left where prostitution was legal.

My guess is that non-prostitute women wanted prostitution outlawed, so that they could have a monopoly on vagina. The result? Men engaging in self-destructive behavior to get laid, when they simply could have gone out to buy sex. These days, we think low of a guy who pays for sex... but we have zero probably with guys who will fuck their friends over (as long as it's not us), allow women to shit all over them, humiliate themselves, or fuck the biggest ugliest chick you've ever seen... all in the name of "not paying for it."

These women have shamed men out of "paying for it," so now you have to put up with their shit to get it. Why are there 400-lb women at Walmart with poor hygiene and no class... yet they've got children with them? Because they don't have to change a damn thing about themselves. They know that they're going to get some dick, regardless. A man would feel more dignified fucking her, than paying to have sex with someone who is actually attractive.

I'm telling you... legalize prostitution, and watch the overall quality of women improve literally overnight... because when they realize that they don't have the monopoly anymore, they're going to have to compete with prostitutes.

This is seriously the most intelligent thing I have read on here in a while. You want to stop human trafficking? Legalize it. Go to a country where prostitution is legal and controlled, and then tell me what the harm is. Some of the best sex I have ever had was paid for.

technomage1
09-04-2013, 03:43 PM
A barber shop with a brothel on the premises and he is just being snarky because those have been off limits to GI for a long time.

Besides, if you are a westerner chances are you wouldn't get anything beyond a haircut.

Actually my point was if you want to try and eliminate prostitution...good luck as there are multiple avenues. Demand will always create supply, legal or not. The most effective way s education about the whole hipuman trafficking issue to try and stop demand.

tiredretiredE7
09-04-2013, 04:11 PM
I don't really look at it like that, but I agree with the overall gist of what you're saying.

Personally, I wish that... not only would prostitution be legal, but that men utilizing their services would be a completely normal and regular thing.

According to literature that I've read, right up through the Victorian Era; married women didn't have sex with their husbands unless it was to have children. Their husbands would go find prostitutes. To some extent, this continued right up to Women's Lib in the 1960's - and there were still more states left where prostitution was legal.

My guess is that non-prostitute women wanted prostitution outlawed, so that they could have a monopoly on vagina. The result? Men engaging in self-destructive behavior to get laid, when they simply could have gone out to buy sex. These days, we think low of a guy who pays for sex... but we have zero probably with guys who will fuck their friends over (as long as it's not us), allow women to shit all over them, humiliate themselves, or fuck the biggest ugliest chick you've ever seen... all in the name of "not paying for it."

These women have shamed men out of "paying for it," so now you have to put up with their shit to get it. Why are there 400-lb women at Walmart with poor hygiene and no class... yet they've got children with them? Because they don't have to change a damn thing about themselves. They know that they're going to get some dick, regardless. A man would feel more dignified fucking her, than paying to have sex with someone who is actually attractive.

I'm telling you... legalize prostitution, and watch the overall quality of women improve literally overnight... because when they realize that they don't have the monopoly anymore, they're going to have to compete with prostitutes.

100% gospel. However, all men in the US do currently pay for sex whether it is with a girlfriend or a wife. Strippers and Juicys stay married longer because they are freaks in bed. I am currently in the land of 400+lb women who have more than 1 child due to beer goggles.

Rusty Jones
09-04-2013, 04:23 PM
The most effective way s education about the whole hipuman trafficking issue to try and stop demand.

Good luck with that.

Do you know something that humans and bonobos have in common, that our other closest primate relatives do not?

Our females have hidden ovulation. Most female animals are incapable of having sex outside of when they're ovulating. Hidden ovulation keeps the males guessing, and having around for when the female is able and willing to have sex.

That's why among humans and bonobos, you have what's called "pair bonding" - or... committed relationships.

Sure, us married folk can come up with all kinds of reasons for why we're married, but as far as mother nature is concerned... we got married in order to hoard a vagina.

But while we're hoarding that vagina, we also have to put up with the woman that it's attached to.

That's the problem. The solution is... prostitution! I mean, even "friends with benefits" isn't a solution because, although it's to a lesser extent than a wife or girlfriend, there's still the woman you have to deal with. Whereas with a prostitute... all she gives a damn about is her money. As long as she gets her money, you won't hear from her again unless you want to buy her services once more.

And you really think that it's possible to eliminate the market for that?

Like I said, legalize it... and I guarantee you; regular women will be much easier to deal with.

MACHINE666
09-04-2013, 05:33 PM
Okay, this action by Uncle Air Force is bullshit beyond bullshit, and we all know it.

What gives Big Blue the authority to demand that some locals play by their rules? Yes, it all boils down to money, however as well intended as it may seem, the Korean mafia will always find a way to make money, one way or another. Buying drinks for a Juicee Girl really is not all that different than having a Sugar Baby for a girlfriend. You give her tons of cash, and viola, you get attention it return.


For those of you currently at Osan reading this, you have my sympathies. Friendly Fascist leadership is still fascist leadership, even if it smiles and wears a flight suit. If push comes shove, break out your street smarts if yah gotta take care of business. You know what I mean.

CJSmith
09-04-2013, 07:08 PM
You asked them this while with the American girl you picked up?

Lol, nope, she went the other way to her room. That would be a bit on the cocky side and I intended on seeing her more than just that night. Worked out for a little bit.

TJMAC77SP
09-04-2013, 07:11 PM
Lol, nope, she went the other way to her room. That would be a bit on the cocky side and I intended on seeing her more than just that night. Worked out for a little bit.

Ok, I was wondering.

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Good luck with that.

Do you know something that humans and bonobos have in common, that our other closest primate relatives do not?

Our females have hidden ovulation. Most female animals are incapable of having sex outside of when they're ovulating. Hidden ovulation keeps the males guessing, and having around for when the female is able and willing to have sex.

That's why among humans and bonobos, you have what's called "pair bonding" - or... committed relationships.

Sure, us married folk can come up with all kinds of reasons for why we're married, but as far as mother nature is concerned... we got married in order to hoard a vagina.

But while we're hoarding that vagina, we also have to put up with the woman that it's attached to.

That's the problem. The solution is... prostitution! I mean, even "friends with benefits" isn't a solution because, although it's to a lesser extent than a wife or girlfriend, there's still the woman you have to deal with. Whereas with a prostitute... all she gives a damn about is her money. As long as she gets her money, you won't hear from her again unless you want to buy her services once more.

And you really think that it's possible to eliminate the market for that?

Like I said, legalize it... and I guarantee you; regular women will be much easier to deal with.

This may be the best attempt at justifying infidelity to yourself that I've ever seen!

garhkal
09-04-2013, 07:52 PM
Where do you draw the line? There are spas outside of the gate at Keesler that have trafficked girls? Germany has been mentioned. What about Nellis/Las Vegas? The street outside of Hurlburt or Ft Benning? Prostitution is the worlds oldest profession for a reason. I hate the fact that the morality is governed, especially when we try to govern it countries where we are a guest.

Exactly.. When the mil came out with the anti trafficking laws, part of it was no solicitation of prostitutes period. BUT how do we know whether that 20 something college girl posting on back page, or that 30 something asian worker at a spa, or that late 20s something gal at the kitten ranch in vegas are 'trafficked' or not?


Some do, some don't. I have read of some girls from Eastern Europe who fall prey to scams offering them work in hotels as housekeeping or bar staff that end up in pretty bad situations. In Spain at a convenience store I talked to a girl from Maldova who I am pretty sure had fallen prey to something along that line. At the same time, there are some that I would imagine know exactly what they are getting into and are either okay with it, or are just resigned to it.

The whole situation could stimulate a much bigger discussion than just the 7th AF policy.

Correct. There was a good film with Mira sorvino and Donald Sutherland about human trafficking, and it showed how some of those groups lure in girls from the eastern European areas.
Good watch imo.


100% gospel. However, all men in the US do currently pay for sex whether it is with a girlfriend or a wife. Strippers and Juicys stay married longer because they are freaks in bed. I am currently in the land of 400+lb women who have more than 1 child due to beer goggles.

In a base wide discussion at a command stand down, that argument was used by 2 married chiefs when someone brought up why are 'places like vegas where prostitution is ok' off limits? Sex is always paid for imo. Whether its me handing the lass a 100 bucks, or me buying my GF/Wife jewelry and clothes, it is all trading money for sex. SO why is it wrong for me to just hand someone the cash, vice buying them a lavish dinner, jewelry etc?


Wonder if they'll go after the massage parlors and double pole barber shops next?

Doubtful. Look at how often its lawyers and politicians caught at those places when they are raided..


This is seriously the most intelligent thing I have read on here in a while. You want to stop human trafficking? Legalize it. Go to a country where prostitution is legal and controlled, and then tell me what the harm is. Some of the best sex I have ever had was paid for.

Plus with it being legal you can
A) regulate it by requiring licenses (like Nevada does)
B) this has the added affect of limiting child prostitutes
C) being the lasses get periodically checked for STDs this protests the johns, and since its legal, they can group together in brothels and have bouncers which protects the ladies..


Okay, this action by Uncle Air Force is bullshit beyond bullshit, and we all know it.

What gives Big Blue the authority to demand that some locals play by their rules? Yes, it all boils down to money, however as well intended as it may seem, the Korean mafia will always find a way to make money, one way or another. Buying drinks for a Juicee Girl really is not all that different than having a Sugar Baby for a girlfriend. You give her tons of cash, and viola, you get attention it return.

And the part that makes me laugh is look at how much uproar there was with craigslist's adults section.. "WAA it encourages prostitution!!" but do you see any of the same uproar at the dozens of sites where girls are advertising their bodies looking for sugar daddies??

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 08:08 PM
I do not believe the Mustang Ranch is off limits. I could be wrong, though, as I'm not stationed at Nellis.

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 08:20 PM
the Mustang Ranch is not in Las Vegas...nevertheless, I believe engaging in prositution is off-limits for servicemembers anywhere, anytime...even if it's legal where you are.

I realize that it's not legal in Vegas city limits, but that's beside the point. And I believe you're right...that all changed with our agents in South America...it's a stupid rule, but it's there.

Rusty Jones
09-04-2013, 08:26 PM
This may be the best attempt at justifying infidelity to yourself that I've ever seen!

That's actually not what I was trying to do. It was more like justification for not settling down... especially when it's possible to get laid without having to put up with the bullshit.

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 08:28 PM
That's actually not what I was trying to do. It was more like justification for not settling down... especially when it's possible to get laid without having to put up with the bullshit.

Oh, ok...fair enough. And I like that answer. If someone knows they can't be faithful then they shouldn't get married. Go bang all the people you want, no harm done. What annoys me is the married guys that cheat and then try to justify it with the "Well, I'm a man" answer.

Rusty Jones
09-04-2013, 08:51 PM
Oh, ok...fair enough. And I like that answer. If someone knows they can't be faithful then they shouldn't get married. Go bang all the people you want, no harm done. What annoys me is the married guys that cheat and then try to justify it with the "Well, I'm a man" answer.

No plans on cheating or leaving my wife, but if she were to leave me right now... I guarantee she won't be replaced. I mean... you figure a $100 prostitute every payday... that's $200 a month, getting laid once every two weeks. Certainly cheaper than having a wife... or even a girlfriend. And without a woman in the house for me to expect sex from, sex once every two weeks is more than enough.

CYBERFX1024
09-04-2013, 09:01 PM
T Why are there 400-lb women at Walmart with poor hygiene and no class... yet they've got children with them? Because they don't have to change a damn thing about themselves. They know that they're going to get some dick, regardless. A man would feel more dignified fucking her, than paying to have sex with someone who is actually attractive.
I'm telling you... legalize prostitution, and watch the overall quality of women improve literally overnight... because when they realize that they don't have the monopoly anymore, they're going to have to compete with prostitutes.


Bravo.... I concur.

I used to be that guy who jumped on that 2-300Ib woman because it was easier than having to really chase a woman. Hell, I have "dated" one girl who was a easy 300 pounds but damn she would take care of me and even bring me food when I was out on a field op on Camp Lejeune. She wanted me to move in with her and she would take me to and from base everyday. I got tired of her quick and I moved on.

sharkhunter
09-04-2013, 09:06 PM
I realize that it's not legal in Vegas city limits, but that's beside the point. And I believe you're right...that all changed with our agents in South America...it's a stupid rule, but it's there.

This actually happen a lot earlier than that. it was around 2005 that it became DoD wide policy. At the time the policy came out, it was to protect (ironically) the juicy girls or those that were trafficed into prostitution in Korea. However, the broad ruling/policy made all prostitution illegal for servicemembers and DoD Civlians world wide. There was an article in the Stars and Stripes about it.

Rusty Jones
09-04-2013, 09:07 PM
Legalize prostitution, and you kill "pussy power."

"You want me to do what? Fuck you, I'm going to the brothel!"

CYBERFX1024
09-04-2013, 09:09 PM
There are some conflicting things going on for sure.
I think no one wants to see a girl tricked or forced into being a prostitute, held against her will with exorbitant debts etc. OK, everyone I think agrees with that. That should absolutely be prohibited.
Are there girls that know what they are getting into? Yes...I've known girls that have done 3, 4, 5 tours over there and keep signing on for more. Some do it to support family back home, some enjoy the fast-paced lifestyle.
Are they being exploited because of their economic situation at home? A lot of them, probably...but, does that make it better to send them back home without a solution to their economic problems? If being prosituted in Korea gives them and their family money they otherwise would not be able to get...what do they have when that is taken away? Is the trap of poverty better than the trap of prostitution? For some, maybe, for others, not. What are we rescuing them from and to? Of course, it's the bar owners and handlers making the bulk of the money, not the girls.
But, no one is gonna hire most of these girls to be singers in band...and 1,000 GIs are certainly not going to spend $100 a night to listen to them sing.


I have never been to Korea or Oki so I can't tell you what I don't know. But from what I can tell the majority of the woman that are juicy girls are from the Philippines. Well if you have spent any time in the Philippines and lived with the people, then you would understand that the average Filipino are extremely poor to say the least. So the children try and move abroad to help support the family, and when I mean family I mean extended family as well. The majority that go abroad to find work are women, because the majority of men are toiling away at home doing menial jobs to get by. All the while drinking, smoking, and gambling the money they earned away.

So that's why these women do this job multiple tours because it helps provide for the family at home. Yes, some are trafficked but the majority do it to get ahead.

sharkhunter
09-04-2013, 09:22 PM
Okay, I agree just like the rest of you that human trafficking is wrong and it should be prohibited to support the act (aka visiting juicy bars) in anyway.
But again, what about the women who freely by their own will and choice, decide to go and work as a prostitute? Why should that be illegal? The brothels in NV are a good example of woman who do this profession by choice (anyone ever seen the Chicken Ranch documentary?) but also the Red Light District in Amsterdam, and the Reeperbahn in Germany. And, prostitution is legal in RI as well (as long as its not advertised).

CYBERFX1024
09-04-2013, 09:25 PM
I've lived in Korea and Philippines...I know what you mean.
Last time I was in Korea, 2001-2002, there were a helluva lot of Russian/Ukrainian girls also. I've heard they've mostly disappeared since then.

Yeah my wife is from Mindanao the Southern Island. I have lived down there for a few months, the poverty corruption just amazes me.

That's like in Dubai as well. There are alot of Chinese and Filipina women. But they also compete with the Russian/Ukrainian and Ethiopians as well.

technomage1
09-04-2013, 10:26 PM
I do not believe the Mustang Ranch is off limits. I could be wrong, though, as I'm not stationed at Nellis.

Doesn't matter if it's legal or not in an area. Prostitution is illegal under the UCMJ since 2005. Article 134-38.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/134138.htm

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 10:40 PM
Doesn't matter if it's legal or not in an area. Prostitution is illegal under the UCMJ since 2005. Article 134-38.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/134138.htm

I've been retired for almost 4 full days now so I have purged all that stuff.

Rusty Jones
09-04-2013, 10:43 PM
Doesn't matter if it's legal or not in an area. Prostitution is illegal under the UCMJ since 2005. Article 134-38.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/134138.htm

So was oral and anal sex, up until 2003. And JUST LIKE oral and anal sex, I expect this this to selectively enforced; particularly for a command to discharge someone they already trying to get rid of anyway.

eman_osan
09-04-2013, 10:55 PM
Thanks. I had someone send it to me yesterday. Memo refers mostly to trafficking Pinoys, but the the $64,000 question is: What happens when Korean females are the main workers in the bars again. Is there no more PHT since it's now all Korean and does it just become a Korean goverment problem? Osan will have gotten rid of all the 3rd country nationals who will now be farmed out to Army camp towns. Does USFK piggy-back on the 7AF/CC initiative and declare war on the rest of juicy bars in Korea? I'm taking a wait and see attitude.


I have it, but can't post it...

I believe they are talking about paying for one of the girls to play with you...not paying to be on a team. Here's the quote:



I'm thinking certain bars will come up with a "workaround"...and some GIs will believe the workaround is smart, but they'll probably get busted. i.e. $50 cover charge, girls are free.

technomage1
09-04-2013, 11:39 PM
I've been retired for almost 4 full days now so I have purged all that stuff.

Just as long as it's your official date and not your terminal leave....remember the Chief who "retired" went on his terminal leave, and got recalled for the drug test. Popped positive. Bad things happened.

Airborne
09-05-2013, 12:26 AM
I've lived in Korea and Philippines...I know what you mean.

Last time I was in Korea, 2001-2002, there were a helluva lot of Russian/Ukrainian girls also. I've heard they've mostly disappeared since then.

Yeh that was right before a few eastern european countries were excepted in the EU....Even though it is legal in places like Amsterdam, Germany, and Spain, many of the girls are still trafficked or least not native to the country where they work. And yes it has been illegal for a while, but it's another one of the rules thats not heavily enforced but will be used against you if they find the need. Sort of like the adultery rules or sodomy rules.

garhkal
09-05-2013, 03:30 AM
Not to detract from your point...but prostitution is actually illegal in Las Vegas.

Vegas yes, but i meant to say in nevada as a whole.


Okay, I agree just like the rest of you that human trafficking is wrong and it should be prohibited to support the act (aka visiting juicy bars) in anyway.
But again, what about the women who freely by their own will and choice, decide to go and work as a prostitute? Why should that be illegal? The brothels in NV are a good example of woman who do this profession by choice (anyone ever seen the Chicken Ranch documentary?) but also the Red Light District in Amsterdam, and the Reeperbahn in Germany. And, prostitution is legal in RI as well (as long as its not advertised).

And if prostitution is illegal period, why are those 'sugar daddy' sights good to go since that IS in effect prostitution (i shag you, you take financial care of me)>>!!


Yeh that was right before a few eastern european countries were excepted in the EU....Even though it is legal in places like Amsterdam, Germany, and Spain, many of the girls are still trafficked or least not native to the country where they work. And yes it has been illegal for a while, but it's another one of the rules thats not heavily enforced but will be used against you if they find the need. Sort of like the adultery rules or sodomy rules.

Yup. Or our own govt on how they selectively enforce our Immigration rules..

bcoco14
09-05-2013, 04:11 AM
I have never dropped whole paychecks to sleep with a girl I was dating who also may have been "seeing" other guys. That's just me though.

Neither have I and I think doing so is a pretty stupid thing to do with your money. However, people can spend their money how ever they want and it's not my place to judge how someone spends their paycheck as long as, if it's one of my guys, they are paying their bills.

I find it disturbing that people automatically associate a job with prostitution simply because of a country it is in along with long told folklore. The whole juicy game is alive and well in the good old US of A. Ever been to a strip club? Back in 2008 I was TDY to Vegas and we went to one. Funny thing that they were getting me to buy the strippers drinks for $20 a pop so they can sit there and BS with me. Same can be said in strip clubs in Texas, Arizona, North Carolina that I know of. Guam... ever been there? This is a breeding ground for juicy heaven complete with mama sans. Price $20 a drink. And 95%, if not more, are girls from the lower 48.

The fact is that are some of these girls prostituting themselves out, but some and I would argue most aren't. Just because you are a stripper doesn't automatically make you a prostitute, just like being a juicy doesn't automatically make you one either. Especially seeing as juicy and stripper are pretty much a synonymous term these days where the name selection comes from the country being discussed.

eman_osan
09-05-2013, 05:18 AM
There's a new breed of young Korean girls working the bars in the past 2 1/2 years that will not bar fine. These girls have boyfriends/husbands and don't mind taking as much money from you as the can - it's their job. But, they are going home alone or with their significant other. This is the new future business practice for the clubs that are in trouble with the Filipinas.

I dunno...maybe things changed in the last 10 years, but just about every juicy girl in every juicy bar I ever seen was up for a bar fine.

I've only had a couple U.S. strippers ever broach the topic in my whole life.

bcoco14
09-05-2013, 06:42 AM
I dunno...maybe things changed in the last 10 years, but just about every juicy girl in every juicy bar I ever seen was up for a bar fine.

I've only had a couple U.S. strippers ever broach the topic in my whole life.

I think things might have changed over the past 10 years, dramatically. I have seen many "juicy girls" let a guy pay the bar fine, and at first opportunity ditch them to go hang out with the "boyfriend". I also know of at least three that I personally know, two Russian and one Phillipa, who got married and have been married for over 10 years, kids the whole nine.

I went to Guam and Okinawa and we ran a little experiment, on this very topic. We ran through a series of bars in Guam. The test guy got straight to the point, he wanted sex, how much? He had 3 takers in Guam and an almost 95% sucess rate in Oki, with ridiculous amounts maxing out at $800 for one night of sex. The "bar" that was mainly "American"...ie strippers. These chicks were mostly married to military guys and were very willing to sell themselves. Sad really. But to each their own.

sandsjames
09-05-2013, 11:54 AM
Just as long as it's your official date and not your terminal leave....remember the Chief who "retired" went on his terminal leave, and got recalled for the drug test. Popped positive. Bad things happened.

Started terminal on 26 June, official 1 September, so I'm good to go.

garhkal
09-05-2013, 06:12 PM
I think things might have changed over the past 10 years, dramatically. I have seen many "juicy girls" let a guy pay the bar fine, and at first opportunity ditch them to go hang out with the "boyfriend". I also know of at least three that I personally know, two Russian and one Phillipa, who got married and have been married for over 10 years, kids the whole nine.

I went to Guam and Okinawa and we ran a little experiment, on this very topic. We ran through a series of bars in Guam. The test guy got straight to the point, he wanted sex, how much? He had 3 takers in Guam and an almost 95% sucess rate in Oki, with ridiculous amounts maxing out at $800 for one night of sex. The "bar" that was mainly "American"...ie strippers. These chicks were mostly married to military guys and were very willing to sell themselves. Sad really. But to each their own.

Kind of like what i heard of in Norfolk the day after a carrier battle group pulls out.. All the navy wives would be IN those strip joints/bars picking up guys.

giggawatt
09-05-2013, 07:10 PM
Neither have I and I think doing so is a pretty stupid thing to do with your money. However, people can spend their money how ever they want and it's not my place to judge how someone spends their paycheck as long as, if it's one of my guys, they are paying their bills.

I find it disturbing that people automatically associate a job with prostitution simply because of a country it is in along with long told folklore. The whole juicy game is alive and well in the good old US of A. Ever been to a strip club? Back in 2008 I was TDY to Vegas and we went to one. Funny thing that they were getting me to buy the strippers drinks for $20 a pop so they can sit there and BS with me. Same can be said in strip clubs in Texas, Arizona, North Carolina that I know of. Guam... ever been there? This is a breeding ground for juicy heaven complete with mama sans. Price $20 a drink. And 95%, if not more, are girls from the lower 48.

The fact is that are some of these girls prostituting themselves out, but some and I would argue most aren't. Just because you are a stripper doesn't automatically make you a prostitute, just like being a juicy doesn't automatically make you one either. Especially seeing as juicy and stripper are pretty much a synonymous term these days where the name selection comes from the country being discussed.

I know what you mean. I was in Cyprus and went into a bar with one guy I was TDY with. It was essentially a juicy bar. I'd never been to Korea but I've heard plenty about them so I knew when the girl asked me to buy her a drink while she sat down and talked to me, what this place was all about. The guy I was with dropped about 20-30 Euro while the girl with him got pretty physical. I was very reluctant but I paid 10 Euro and the girl with me just sat by me texting her boyfriend.

Rusty Jones
09-05-2013, 09:21 PM
Kind of like what i heard of in Norfolk the day after a carrier battle group pulls out.. All the navy wives would be IN those strip joints/bars picking up guys.

I've been here in Norfolk on and off since 2002. There are no strip clubs in Norfolk - just two go-go bars; RC's II and Clancy's. You've gotta go to Portsmouth if you want a real titty bar.

I've never been in any of Norfolk's go-go bars; but I pick people up there all time during my taxi shifts - I see people hanging around outside smoking cigarettes... but never women who look like they don't work there.

However, there ARE nights where you'll see prostitutes start to show up around RC's II after last call.

You might be talking about the "WESTPAC Widows" of San Diego.

garhkal
09-06-2013, 04:10 AM
I was there back in 93-96.. So maybe some closed.

imported_chipotleboy
09-06-2013, 11:48 AM
Just as long as it's your official date and not your terminal leave....remember the Chief who "retired" went on his terminal leave, and got recalled for the drug test. Popped positive. Bad things happened.

I missed that one, but I'd love to hear the details. From my understanding of 44-120, the software that selects participants in Operation Golden Flow is suppossed to screen out those on leave or TDY.

20+Years
09-06-2013, 12:33 PM
I missed that one, but I'd love to hear the details. From my understanding of 44-120, the software that selects participants in Operation Golden Flow is suppossed to screen out those on leave or TDY.

Negative. The unit notifies DDR that someone is on TDY or leave. When they return, then the letter is given. Thats why so many people get tagged right after leave and think they are being checked, thier name just came up while they were gone. I have worked closely with the program for several years if you are wondering.

garhkal
09-06-2013, 05:07 PM
Yup. I got popped for 4 whiz quizzes right after returning from leave.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-07-2013, 02:20 AM
Because of this new restriction, DOD is going to experience a severe shortage of commissary baggers in 10-15 years. I hope they thought this through!

garhkal
09-07-2013, 03:19 AM
LOL.. Na we still have the bar girls from other places, such as Vietnam, China and Thiland.

Airborne
09-07-2013, 06:38 AM
Because of this new restriction, DOD is going to experience a severe shortage of commissary baggers in 10-15 years. I hope they thought this through!

I never tip the baggers no matter how many groceries I have, as I could easily do it myself and no other supermarket uses this model. But this one time, I was getting $10 cash back and the lady asked me if I wanted any singles and I looked at the bagger who had just bagged 2.5 plastic bags, looked back at the lady and said no. I didnt even feel guilty.

Stalwart
09-07-2013, 10:11 AM
Because of this new restriction, DOD is going to experience a severe shortage of commissary baggers in 10-15 years. I hope they thought this through!

I bagged at Barksdale the summer between my sophomore and junior year in high school, so about 1987. Most of the baggers there at that time were high school kids, there weren't a lot of wives.

I have less of an issue with tipping the high school age-looking kids bagging at Ft. Meade (there are not that many, literally 2 or 3) since the job seems to be commensurate with their experience and skills and they are trying to make some extra money.

Drackore
09-07-2013, 03:43 PM
See here's my gripe. Juicy bars provide a far larger and more legitimate (scientific) morale boost than Tops in Blue. People *NEED* sex. People *NEED* to feel wanted. We're literally eliminating both from the military all together and forcing people to sit and listen to crap songs and watch horrible dancing instead.

What

The

Fuck?!?

Now I get it. Places like Korea where the human trafficking is rampant...bad no-no. I get it. I don't want to pay a hooker for sex only to find out that if she isn't doing this she is going to be beat, raped, tortured, killed or her family back home harmed. Roger. Makes sense. However in Germany where it's legal and women are free to come and go and do it as they please and have their own passports and can do when whenever they want and either work in a brothel or in their own RV and get health screened, pay taxes, and even leave the country and never come back. Someone explain to me why it's such a big deal.

TIB is human trafficking in my opinion.

garhkal
09-07-2013, 06:32 PM
I never tip the baggers no matter how many groceries I have, as I could easily do it myself and no other supermarket uses this model. But this one time, I was getting $10 cash back and the lady asked me if I wanted any singles and I looked at the bagger who had just bagged 2.5 plastic bags, looked back at the lady and said no. I didnt even feel guilty.

That's why if i can, i use the self check out lines.. no need to worry about tips!

technomage1
09-07-2013, 08:24 PM
I never tip the baggers no matter how many groceries I have, as I could easily do it myself and no other supermarket uses this model. But this one time, I was getting $10 cash back and the lady asked me if I wanted any singles and I looked at the bagger who had just bagged 2.5 plastic bags, looked back at the lady and said no. I didnt even feel guilty.

You know their only income is tips, right? If you don't want to tip them, wave them off and bag your own groceries.

Rusty Jones
09-07-2013, 09:14 PM
You know their only income is tips, right? If you don't want to tip them, wave them off and bag your own groceries.

Good point. Alot of "machismo" on this board; especially people who think everyone's life is supposed to be hard... for no reason.

Greg
09-07-2013, 09:22 PM
Good point. Alot of "machismo" on this board; especially people who think everyone's life is supposed to be hard... for no reason.

People thinking life should be hard, or discipline a valued trait?

technomage1
09-07-2013, 09:47 PM
Good point. Alot of "machismo" on this board; especially people who think everyone's life is supposed to be hard... for no reason.

I got into a conversation one day at the checkout with the cashier. The baggers on that line had just gotten done packing a 4 cartfull purchase (of groceries, not pop or anything like that) when the customer told them they'd take their own order out and didn't leave a tip. 2 baggers spent about 10 minutes bagging for free for this clod. Understandably they weren't happy.

Apparently this happens all the time. No one has a problem if someone wants to pack and carry themselves, but using someone's labor for free is rotten.

BOSS302
09-07-2013, 10:46 PM
I never tip the baggers no matter how many groceries I have, as I could easily do it myself and no other supermarket uses this model. But this one time, I was getting $10 cash back and the lady asked me if I wanted any singles and I looked at the bagger who had just bagged 2.5 plastic bags, looked back at the lady and said no. I didnt even feel guilty.

And then you put on a pair of sunglasses and walked away from an explosion without looking at it.

Rusty Jones
09-07-2013, 11:24 PM
People thinking life should be hard, or discipline a valued trait?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. What, you think you're teaching someone something by fucking them over?

Be glad I don't work there. You'd have to keep a close eye on me to make sure you don't go home smashed eggs, squished bread, and punctured milk.

Airborne
09-08-2013, 12:04 AM
You know their only income is tips, right? If you don't want to tip them, wave them off and bag your own groceries.

I get the same stink eye if I tell the bagger I dont need them as I would if they bag and dont tip. At walmart, the cashier bags as he/she goes. At discount grocers you bag your own as they come down the belt. At premium supermarkets, they have baggers but no tip jar. Im not in it to prove how hard I am or how stupid you are for working for tips only, it's just not a service I require. Not to mention I end up with 10 plastic bags for 5 dollars worth of shopping. This is one of the reasons I only shop at the commissary for convenience during breakfast/lunch and not for my weekly pantry restock.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-08-2013, 12:18 AM
Damn, if I thought this was going to turn into a tip argument I wouldn't have posted about baggers. The point I was trying to make is that MOST are Asian, most likely former juicy girls. Ok, maybe not.

Greg
09-08-2013, 12:29 AM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. What, you think you're teaching someone something by fucking them over?

Be glad I don't work there. You'd have to keep a close eye on me to make sure you don't go home smashed eggs, squished bread, and punctured milk.

I was in no way inferring someone should be purposely screwed over. Especially for shit-n-grins. Sorry you took it that way.

I worked in a supermarket while in high school, and a couple of other service industry related jobs. I had ways to take out my frustrations when I felt screwed.

Capt Alfredo
09-08-2013, 12:40 AM
I was in no way inferring someone should be purposely screwed over. Especially for shit-n-grins. Sorry you took it that way.

I worked in a supermarket while in high school, and a couple of other service industry related jobs. I had ways to take out my frustrations when I felt screwed.

Were you implying it? /grammar cop (not me)

Greg
09-08-2013, 12:43 AM
Were you implying it? /grammar cop (not me)

Neither. Thank you.

BOSS302
09-08-2013, 05:31 PM
how stupid you are for working for tips only...



http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lln1fnzfdX1qih3ojo1_500.png

DocBones
09-08-2013, 05:56 PM
Human Trafficking is being busted down upon? You mean that the Russian Mail Order Bride is not coming to my house?

Now I will never ever see my Russian Gal that can do housework and rub out my enemies.

Hmmm... what do you think about me getting a Filipina Bride? Workable?

garhkal
09-08-2013, 06:11 PM
I wonder how many MOBs are trafficed.

DocBones
09-08-2013, 11:17 PM
Mothers Of Brides? Now that IS scary!

MACHINE666
09-09-2013, 05:00 PM
http://www.examiner.com/article/10-reasons-we-need-to-legalize-prostitution

10 Reasons why Prostitution should be legalized in America - some of which we've already covered in here.

Bottom line is that it should be a woman's choice, much like an abortion, if she wants to open her body up to be used as an amusement park. So be it. Europe has legalized prostitution, and at the same time, they have significantly less amount of sex crimes occur.

Are the two related?

My theory is YES.

If Uncle Scam and Uncle Air Farts let Airman Snot get his rocks off on a Friday night, maybe he wouldn't end up assaulting the Korean school girl when he's shit-faced drunk while off-duty, causing yet another international incident.

Duh. Simple math.

Rusty Jones
09-09-2013, 05:37 PM
The only reason I care about isn't listed - it takes the ability to use sex as leverage away from non-prostitute women.

garhkal
09-09-2013, 06:29 PM
Mothers Of Brides? Now that IS scary!

Mail order brides.

Rusty Jones
09-09-2013, 07:59 PM
I've only bought sex once in my life (for the purpose of experiencing two chicks at the same time), and I don't intend to do it again. Even if it becomes legal.

I'm just looking at the overall societal benefit. Think about this:

As men, we have to meet certain "standards" to get laid. We have to have a job that pays a certain amount of money, drive a nice car, have a nice pad, look like a god, talk smooth, and dress like we belong on the cover of GQ.

Women? They don't have to meet a damn thing. All they have to do is have a hole between their legs.

It would be nice for women to have to do some "work" to attract men. But they don't. They can be a 300 lb fatass who burps and farts loud and in public unapologetically, because they know that they will never suffer in the sex department because of it. Even if YOU don't want them... if they want sex... all they have to do is walk up to a complete stranger and ASK. As a man, you will NEVER make a woman get her act together by withholding the cock.

Imagine a society where women actually have to meet a standard... they go to the gym, they beef up their culinary skills, and they do all kinds of other stuff... specifically to attract YOU!

Legalized prostitution will make this happen. Since men legally have other options, they don't HAVE to fuck with the 300 lb loudmouth. We will now create a class of women who - get this - can't get laid! At least not until they get their shit together!

Absinthe Anecdote
09-09-2013, 09:11 PM
I've only bought sex once in my life (for the purpose of experiencing two chicks at the same time), and I don't intend to do it again. Even if it becomes legal.

I'm just looking at the overall societal benefit. Think about this:

As men, we have to meet certain "standards" to get laid. We have to have a job that pays a certain amount of money, drive a nice car, have a nice pad, look like a god, talk smooth, and dress like we belong on the cover of GQ.

Women? They don't have to meet a damn thing. All they have to do is have a hole between their legs.

It would be nice for women to have to do some "work" to attract men. But they don't. They can be a 300 lb fatass who burps and farts loud and in public unapologetically, because they know that they will never suffer in the sex department because of it. Even if YOU don't want them... if they want sex... all they have to do is walk up to a complete stranger and ASK. As a man, you will NEVER make a woman get her act together by withholding the cock.

Imagine a society where women actually have to meet a standard... they go to the gym, they beef up their culinary skills, and they do all kinds of other stuff... specifically to attract YOU!

Legalized prostitution will make this happen. Since men legally have other options, they don't HAVE to fuck with the 300 lb loudmouth. We will now create a class of women who - get this - can't get laid! At least not until they get their shit together!

China, Japan, Korea...

garhkal
09-09-2013, 10:37 PM
As a man, you will NEVER make a woman get her act together by withholding the cock.


Speak for yourself. I have turned my fair share of tail away for being ugly, fat, smelly etc.

sandsjames
09-09-2013, 10:42 PM
I've only bought sex once in my life (for the purpose of experiencing two chicks at the same time), and I don't intend to do it again. Even if it becomes legal.

I'm just looking at the overall societal benefit. Think about this:

As men, we have to meet certain "standards" to get laid. We have to have a job that pays a certain amount of money, drive a nice car, have a nice pad, look like a god, talk smooth, and dress like we belong on the cover of GQ.

Women? They don't have to meet a damn thing. All they have to do is have a hole between their legs.

It would be nice for women to have to do some "work" to attract men. But they don't. They can be a 300 lb fatass who burps and farts loud and in public unapologetically, because they know that they will never suffer in the sex department because of it. Even if YOU don't want them... if they want sex... all they have to do is walk up to a complete stranger and ASK. As a man, you will NEVER make a woman get her act together by withholding the cock.

Imagine a society where women actually have to meet a standard... they go to the gym, they beef up their culinary skills, and they do all kinds of other stuff... specifically to attract YOU!

Legalized prostitution will make this happen. Since men legally have other options, they don't HAVE to fuck with the 300 lb loudmouth. We will now create a class of women who - get this - can't get laid! At least not until they get their shit together!

The guys who are going to use prostitutes are going to do it whether or not it's legal. I'm not against it being legal, just don't think it would fix what you think it would fix.

sandsjames
09-09-2013, 10:49 PM
I don't know.

I think some people would use them if they were legal, but won't if they're illegal...just like marijuana.

But, yes, some people are going to use them either way.

Maybe, maybe not. I just don't think it would change women at all. Even if guys could bang all the chicks they wanted to all the time, women are still going to have the upper hand in the relationship.

Rusty Jones
09-10-2013, 12:20 AM
Speak for yourself. I have turned my fair share of tail away for being ugly, fat, smelly etc.

So have I, but you missed the point. Did these women get their act together because you turned them down? Nope. All they did was find some dick somewhere else.

Rusty Jones
09-10-2013, 12:56 AM
The guys who are going to use prostitutes are going to do it whether or not it's legal. I'm not against it being legal, just don't think it would fix what you think it would fix.

Here's why I think it would fix these things: first, I think that it is much easier to go longer periods without sex when you are single then when you are with someone. When you are with someone, you might want sex once every other day or twice a week or whatever. Whereas, when you are single, you can go a whole month without sex and still be alright. Well maybe or maybe not, but I think that we can all agree that going a month without sex is a lot more difficult when you are with someone then when you are single.

That being said, getting laid twice a month on paydays would probably be more than enough for most men who are single.

It's certainly enough to make me or any other man a more difficult man to get into a relationship with. I mean, a woman would have to be good enough to get me to give up what I have going on - I.e., sex that doesn't require me to put up with any bullshit to get it. Now imagine this having the same effect on every man in America.

sandsjames
09-10-2013, 12:04 PM
Here's why I think it would fix these things: first, I think that it is much easier to go longer periods without sex when you are single then when you are with someone. When you are with someone, you might want sex once every other day or twice a week or whatever. Whereas, when you are single, you can go a whole month without sex and still be alright. Well maybe or maybe not, but I think that we can all agree that going a month without sex is a lot more difficult when you are with someone then when you are single.

That being said, getting laid twice a month on paydays would probably be more than enough for most men who are single.

It's certainly enough to make me or any other man a more difficult man to get into a relationship with. I mean, a woman would have to be good enough to get me to give up what I have going on - I.e., sex that doesn't require me to put up with any bullshit to get it. Now imagine this having the same effect on every man in America.

I guess I just don't think of it as something I need, to the point where I'd pay to have sex with a chick that is also getting nailed by hundreds of other guys. You are identifying sex as the goal...I don't see it that way.

giggawatt
09-10-2013, 12:32 PM
I guess I just don't think of it as something I need, to the point where I'd pay to have sex with a chick that is also getting nailed by hundreds of other guys. You are identifying sex as the goal...I don't see it that way.

Well yeah. Any hole's a goal.

Rusty Jones
09-10-2013, 12:53 PM
I guess I just don't think of it as something I need, to the point where I'd pay to have sex with a chick that is also getting nailed by hundreds of other guys.

Under current conditions, men bang random undesirable chicks just to tide them over until they find something they want. I think an attractive prostitute is a better option.

Hell, all other factors being equal, I think even an unattractive prostitute is a better option than an equally unattractive non-prostitute. At least with the prostitute, she's not going to have my phone number, we don't have to be buddy-buddy outside of sex; we don't have to see or talk to each other after sex. And we get to immediately part ways after it's done. Well worth the money to me.


You are identifying sex as the goal...I don't see it that way.

Not really. But whatever that goal is, because prostitutes would be available to take care of your sexual needs, you might be more selective in who you reach your desired goal with.

The very reason why women can be more selective than men is because sex is more readily available to them - regardless of whatever their "goal" is.

Wouldn't it be nice if that could be made to happen for men?

sandsjames
09-10-2013, 01:16 PM
Under current conditions, men bang random undesirable chicks just to tide them over until they find something they want. I think an attractive prostitute is a better option.

Hell, all other factors being equal, I think even an unattractive prostitute is a better option than an equally unattractive non-prostitute. At least with the prostitute, she's not going to have my phone number, we don't have to be buddy-buddy outside of sex; we don't have to see or talk to each other after sex. And we get to immediately part ways after it's done. Well worth the money to me.



Not really. But whatever that goal is, because prostitutes would be available to take care of your sexual needs, you might be more selective in who you reach your desired goal with.

The very reason why women can be more selective than men is because sex is more readily available to them - regardless of whatever their "goal" is.

Wouldn't it be nice if that could be made to happen for men?

That's cool. Just not my thing. Not judging you, just saying that I don't see "readily available" sex as important. But you could be right. It could ease a lot of bad situations for those who consider sex the most important thing going on.

BOSS302
09-10-2013, 01:45 PM
Well yeah. Any hole's a goal.

The mantra of 3E0X2. When most airmen roll into town, they lock up their daughters. When Power Pro rolls into town, they lock up their daughters, sons, cats, rabbits, parakeets, pacu fish, Furbees, PVC piping, exhaust mufflers, etc...

20+Years
09-10-2013, 02:12 PM
Thank God for internet porn. I have several different women every night if they know it or not...

Absinthe Anecdote
09-10-2013, 02:23 PM
The very reason why women can be more selective than men is because sex is more readily available to them - regardless of whatever their "goal" is.

Wouldn't it be nice if that could be made to happen for men?

Careful Rusty, you might violate a law of nature with that kind of thinking.

Seriously, I do think that element is present in the human mating process but I think there are also other factors present in how we select mates.

I don't see it as a total "female advantage" when it comes to hooking up.

Men can use their charm and wit to gain an upper hand. That's part of the fun for me, the conquest aspect. Paying for it takes away that aspect and is kind of like peeking at your Christmas presents early, it totally ruins the experience of Christmas morning.

Rusty Jones
09-10-2013, 03:15 PM
Careful Rusty, you might violate a law of nature with that kind of thinking.

Seriously, I do think that element is present in the human mating process but I think there are also other factors present in how we select mates.

I don't see it as a total "female advantage" when it comes to hooking up.

Men can use their charm and wit to gain an upper hand. That's part of the fun for me, the conquest aspect. Paying for it takes away that aspect and is kind of like peeking at your Christmas presents early, it totally ruins the experience of Christmas morning.

Not really. Modern humans have been around for 200, 000 years; but we have only been "civilized" for the past 50, 000. For the first 150, 000 years... we were animals. I mean, we "are"animals now, but back then we were animals in every sense of the word.

It's believed by most anthropologists that, prior to "The Great Leap Forward" (the point at which we became civilized 50, 000 years ago) only 1 in 5 men actually attracted women, and it was mostly for protection from the remaining 4 out 5 men who regular depended on rape for sex. In fact, pte-civilized humans normally travelled in groups... consisting of one man, a few women, and any offspring (it was normal for the man to commit infanticide).

If a woman got lost from her group, she was at great risk of getting raped.

So... if we want to talk "laws of nature," that's where we're at right now.

Unless you consider something else: prostitution being the "world's oldest profession" may even predate humanity itself.

Chimpanzees, our closest relative - and I'm not even including bonobos - are shown to practice prostitution, where females have been shown to give sex in exchange for food and other items.

This could mean that the most recent common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans, which lived 7 million years ago, could have practiced prostitution - making it within our "laws of nature."

sandsjames
09-10-2013, 03:19 PM
Not really. Modern humans have been around for 200, 000 years; but we have only been "civilized" for the past 50, 000. For the first 150, 000 years... we were animals. I mean, we "are"animals now, but back then we were animals in every sense of the word.

It's believed by most anthropologists that, prior to "The Great Leap Forward" (the point at which we became civilized 50, 000 years ago) only 1 in 5 men actually attracted women, and it was mostly for protection from the remaining 4 out 5 men who regular depended on rape for sex. In fact, pte-civilized humans normally travelled in groups... consisting of one man, a few women, and any offspring (it was normal for the man to commit infanticide).

If a woman got lost from her group, she was at great risk of getting raped.

So... if we want to talk "laws of nature," that's where we're at right now.

Unless you consider something else: prostitution being the "world's oldest profession" may even predate humanity itself.

Chimpanzees, our closest relative - and I'm not even including bonobos - are shown to practice prostitution, where females have been shown to give sex in exchange for food and other items.

This could mean that the most recent common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans, which lived 7 million years ago, could have practiced prostitution - making it within our "laws of nature."

Fortunately, what we have is reason. What don't have is the need to reproduce as the rates of those you mentioned in order to strengthen our groups. The "laws of nature" have changed.

I'm not saying prostitution should be illegal, because it shouldn't. Consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want for whatever the agreement may be. I just don't buy that crap that the instinct is stronger than the ability to reason.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-10-2013, 04:09 PM
Not really. Modern humans have been around for 200, 000 years; but we have only been "civilized" for the past 50, 000. For the first 150, 000 years... we were animals. I mean, we "are"animals now, but back then we were animals in every sense of the word.

It's believed by most anthropologists that, prior to "The Great Leap Forward" (the point at which we became civilized 50, 000 years ago) only 1 in 5 men actually attracted women, and it was mostly for protection from the remaining 4 out 5 men who regular depended on rape for sex. In fact, pte-civilized humans normally travelled in groups... consisting of one man, a few women, and any offspring (it was normal for the man to commit infanticide).

If a woman got lost from her group, she was at great risk of getting raped.

So... if we want to talk "laws of nature," that's where we're at right now.

Unless you consider something else: prostitution being the "world's oldest profession" may even predate humanity itself.

Chimpanzees, our closest relative - and I'm not even including bonobos - are shown to practice prostitution, where females have been shown to give sex in exchange for food and other items.

This could mean that the most recent common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans, which lived 7 million years ago, could have practiced prostitution - making it within our "laws of nature."

Lighten up, I was making a halfhearted joke with that "laws of nature" comment. Besides, I do feel that our courtship ritual has evolved since the Stone Age.

My real point was I enjoy the chase, don't you?

garhkal
09-10-2013, 07:13 PM
Here's why I think it would fix these things: first, I think that it is much easier to go longer periods without sex when you are single then when you are with someone. When you are with someone, you might want sex once every other day or twice a week or whatever. Whereas, when you are single, you can go a whole month without sex and still be alright. Well maybe or maybe not, but I think that we can all agree that going a month without sex is a lot more difficult when you are with someone then when you are single.

That being said, getting laid twice a month on paydays would probably be more than enough for most men who are single.

It's certainly enough to make me or any other man a more difficult man to get into a relationship with. I mean, a woman would have to be good enough to get me to give up what I have going on - I.e., sex that doesn't require me to put up with any bullshit to get it. Now imagine this having the same effect on every man in America.

Not sure who you have spoken with but most married guys i talked with get it (want it) less frequently than us single folk do... Well most single folk that is.


Hell, all other factors being equal, I think even an unattractive prostitute is a better option than an equally unattractive non-prostitute. At least with the prostitute, she's not going to have my phone number, we don't have to be buddy-buddy outside of sex; we don't have to see or talk to each other after sex. And we get to immediately part ways after it's done. Well worth the money to me.

Plus depending on how much she charges, compared to what the wife wants (in clothes, jewelry etc) she may end up being cheaper!

Rusty Jones
09-10-2013, 07:16 PM
Fortunately, what we have is reason. What don't have is the need to reproduce as the rates of those you mentioned in order to strengthen our groups. The "laws of nature" have changed.

I'm not saying prostitution should be illegal, because it shouldn't. Consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want for whatever the agreement may be. I just don't buy that crap that the instinct is stronger than the ability to reason.

Oh, but it is. Have you not seen young Airmen destroy their careers over sex?

Rusty Jones
09-10-2013, 07:28 PM
Not sure who you have spoken with but most married guys i talked with get it (want it) less frequently than us single folk do... Well most single folk that is.

True, but I'm saying single people would still have an easier time dealing with it.


Plus depending on how much she charges, compared to what the wife wants (in clothes, jewelry etc) she may end up being cheaper!

Certainly. As long she costs less than half of your paycheck, you've got the better deal.

USN - Retired
09-10-2013, 09:28 PM
I just don't buy that crap that the instinct is stronger than the ability to reason.

Then please explain their behavior to us...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/David_Petraeus_and_Paula_Broadwell.jpg/624px-David_Petraeus_and_Paula_Broadwell.jpg

Both Holly Petraeus and I would really like an answer. :dance

sandsjames
09-10-2013, 11:41 PM
Oh, but it is. Have you not seen young Airmen destroy their careers over sex?

I've seen Airmen destroy their careers over several things. It doesn't have to do with nature, it has to do with stupidity. Otherwise, we'd all have destroyed our careers over sex. The fact that we don't disproves what you are trying to say.

sandsjames
09-10-2013, 11:42 PM
Then please explain their behavior to us...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/David_Petraeus_and_Paula_Broadwell.jpg/624px-David_Petraeus_and_Paula_Broadwell.jpg

Both Holly Petraeus and I would really like an answer. :dance

It's stupidity and arrogance, nothing more.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-11-2013, 12:31 AM
...and she's kinda hot.

She has an athletic body and that is about all I can say that is nice about her. Not a pretty face but she probably is more fun in the sack than Holly Petraeus. I guess that is two things nicer about her.

sandsjames

Sometimes desire trumps rationality and it happens all the time. Everyone fails at one point in their lives, even Jimmy Carter lusted after another woman.

Not to take this into religion but your own scripture acknowledges that everyone is a sinner and that should tell you that our animal nature is capable of overcoming reason.

Mr. Happy
09-11-2013, 01:46 AM
The late great George Carlin himself said it best about prostitution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73hnG_JfJ_k

sandsjames
09-11-2013, 12:05 PM
She has an athletic body and that is about all I can say that is nice about her. Not a pretty face but she probably is more fun in the sack than Holly Petraeus. I guess that is two things nicer about her.

sandsjames

Sometimes desire trumps rationality and it happens all the time. Everyone fails at one point in their lives, even Jimmy Carter lusted after another woman.

Not to take this into religion but your own scripture acknowledges that everyone is a sinner and that should tell you that our animal nature is capable of overcoming reason.

Desire only trumps rational if you let it. I'm not denying desire. I'm just saying that what separates us from other animals is our ability to reason, to realize that the desire is wrong. Hell, some people have a desire to start fires. Some to steal. That doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean that everyone does it.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-11-2013, 04:39 PM
Desire only trumps rational if you let it. I'm not denying desire. I'm just saying that what separates us from other animals is our ability to reason, to realize that the desire is wrong. Hell, some people have a desire to start fires. Some to steal. That doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean that everyone does it.

I don't think we are in disagreement here.

However, I am interpreting the tone of your posts to be very judgemental and intolerant.

Maybe it is not your intent to sound that way but that is what I am walking away with.

People do make the wrong decisions and sometimes those wrong decisions are initiated by base-level desires and other circumstances.

Heck, there are even scenarios in life where the rational decision is the wrong decision.

efmbman
09-11-2013, 04:45 PM
I think it boils down to how we are wired for reproducing our species. This involves sex unless you add a laboratory and science. Women are born with a fixed number of eggs; therefore women are very discriminating about who gets access to these eggs. Men are able to produce an infinite amount of sperm and many men seem perfectly willing to share it with anyone.

sandsjames
09-11-2013, 04:50 PM
I don't think we are in disagreement here.

However, I am interpreting the tone of your posts to be very judgemental and intolerant.

Maybe it is not your intent to sound that way but that is what I am walking away with.

People do make the wrong decisions and sometimes those wrong decisions are initiated by base-level desires and other circumstances.

Heck, there are even scenarios in life where the rational decision is the wrong decision.

You have misread my tone. I'm not judging at all. I'm just saying that to blame irrational decisions on "base-level" desires is a cop out. It's an excuse. We all know what's right and wrong. The only ones I am intolerant of are the ones who are married and use this excuse when they can't control themselves. Single people can do what they want, chase their desires, etc. If one knows they can't control the desires they shouldn't get married.

So I guess you're half right. I'm not judging or being intolerant of everyone, just the married ones.

sandsjames
09-11-2013, 04:53 PM
I think it boils down to how we are wired for reproducing our species. This involves sex unless you add a laboratory and science. Women are born with a fixed number of eggs; therefore women are very discriminating about who gets access to these eggs. Men are able to produce an infinite amount of sperm and many men seem perfectly willing to share it with anyone.

So now this raises another question. If the instinct to reproduce is so strong, then why are there homosexuals? If nature is going to be the reason, then only one can be right. Either we strive to reproduce or we strive for the pleasure associated with sex. If there were no pleasure related to it, would men still be the way we are? I doubt it.

efmbman
09-11-2013, 05:06 PM
So now this raises another question. If the instinct to reproduce is so strong, then why are there homosexuals? If nature is going to be the reason, then only one can be right. Either we strive to reproduce or we strive for the pleasure associated with sex. If there were no pleasure related to it, would men still be the way we are? I doubt it.

I think the pleasure is there to encourage reproduction. One can still get the pleasure from masturbation. I'm not so sure that the act itself and the pleasure from that act can be exclusive of each other.

sandsjames
09-11-2013, 05:15 PM
I think the pleasure is there to encourage reproduction. One can still get the pleasure from masturbation. I'm not so sure that the act itself and the pleasure from that act can be exclusive of each other.

However, most other animals don't have pleasure associated at all with it. For some (cats) it's even extremely painful. Those are the ones who are driven by instinct.

And don't get me wrong. I accept that we have a certain drive. I'm just saying that we also have the reason to easily overcome that drive, if we really want to.

Rusty Jones
09-11-2013, 05:28 PM
I think the pleasure is there to encourage reproduction. One can still get the pleasure from masturbation. I'm not so sure that the act itself and the pleasure from that act can be exclusive of each other.


However, most other animals don't have pleasure associated at all with it. For some (cats) it's even extremely painful. Those are the ones who are driven by instinct.

And don't get me wrong. I accept that we have a certain drive. I'm just saying that we also have the reason to easily overcome that drive, if we really want to.

To my knowledge, for cats, it's only painful at the end.

All animals have pleasure associated with sex. Think about this: humans are the ONLY animals that know that sex leads to offspring. No other animal knows this - not even dolphins or apes. If they don't know this, then why do they have sex?

Pleasure. THAT'S why.

To add to what I was saying about "The Great Leap Forward," some anthropologists believe that humans figuring out that sex leads to offspring is actually what started it - in order words, out of the 200,000 years of the existence of modern humans, we didn't know it either for the first 150,000 years.

20+Years
09-11-2013, 05:30 PM
Yet another reason to declaw cats :chairshot:

sandsjames
09-11-2013, 05:32 PM
To my knowledge, for cats, it's only painful at the end.

All animals have pleasure associated with sex. Think about this: humans are the ONLY animals that know that sex leads to offspring. No other animal knows this - not even dolphins or apes. If they don't know this, then why do they have sex?

Pleasure. THAT'S why.

To add to what I was saying about "The Great Leap Forward," some anthropologists believe that humans figuring out that sex leads to offspring is actually what started it - in order words, out of the 200,000 years of the existence of modern humans, we didn't know it either for the first 150,000 years.

Not pleasure...instinct. That's why animals put off such a strong scent. For that attraction. And many animals only mate at certain times of the year. If they associated sex with pleasure, they wouldn't wait for the "mating season".

And you are agreeing with me. For humans it's not about the urge to reproduce. It's about the pleasure. It's a selfish thing.

Rusty Jones
09-11-2013, 06:02 PM
Not pleasure...instinct.

Okay, what "instinct" do we follow that's not pleasurable? The reason why pleasure exists in the first in the place is to get us to follow our instincts.

Here's another example: why do the foods that taste the best have the most calories?

Simple - in the days of early modern humans, food was extremely scarce - so you had to consume as many calories as you could find at the time. The purpose of certain foods tasting good was to ensure that you were drawn to the foods with the most calories.

Why people in general so lazy? Because since food was so scarce for our early modern human ancestors, whatever calories they consumed, they had to conserve as many of them as possible.

There's pleasure in sitting on your fat ass and eating high-calorie food. That's why people do it.


That's why animals put off such a strong scent. For that attraction.

Humans do too. But we bathe. Well, most of us do.


And many animals only mate at certain times of the year. If they associated sex with pleasure, they wouldn't wait for the "mating season".

That's because, with the exception of higher primates (monkeys and apes), marsupials, and monotremes (mammals that lay eggs); mammals are incapable of having sex year round. In addition, they have what's called an "estrous cycle" as opposed to the "menstrual cycle" that higher primates have.

Most monkeys have a menstrual cycle, but some don't. However, ALL apes do. This means we can sex year round.

However, lesser apes (gibbons, siamangs), chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans can only have sex during ovulation. Humans and bonobos can have sex any day of the month.

That being said... for animals other than humans and bonobos, it's not a matter of them not wanting sex; it's a matter of their inability to have it at a given time.


And you are agreeing with me. For humans it's not about the urge to reproduce. It's about the pleasure. It's a selfish thing.

I never disagreed with this point.

In fact, among the great apes; humans and orangutans are the only species where males have a higher sex drive than females.

When you look specifically at gorillas, females actually have to cajole the males into sex. Typically, in any given troop, the females will generally approach the silverback for sex - and if he doesn't give in, he'll actually order a blackback male to have sex with the female that approached him.

garhkal
09-11-2013, 06:13 PM
..not to mention old Colonels, Generals, Chiefs...

Don't forget sports stars, politicians etc

imported_UncommonSense
09-12-2013, 02:06 PM
Its always painful with a cat if they haven't been declawed, trust me.

But it's your cat.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-12-2013, 03:03 PM
Its always painful with a cat if they haven't been declawed, trust me.

You should consider retracting this post or giving it a heavy edit at the very least.

20+Years
09-12-2013, 03:23 PM
Fine. Edited to: Yet another reason to declaw cats :chairshot: