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Shaken1976
09-03-2013, 03:53 PM
I have a co-worker who got in trouble in July. He received an LOR. He has another LOR about a month before and a few other small issues. They informed him then that they intend to demote...but he hasn't heard a word yet about it. It has been two months. He doesn't want to ask...but feels like he is waiting on a boot to drop. So is there a time frame when they need to actually inform someone? Or can it be whenever they get around to it?

UH1FE
09-03-2013, 03:58 PM
Call ADC.

20+Years
09-03-2013, 04:12 PM
Well seeing as how corrective action should be taken as close to an incident as possible, I would think its not going to happen. Only my opinion though. I would definitely think any more infractions will trigger a response though.

Pullinteeth
09-03-2013, 04:15 PM
I have a co-worker who got in trouble in July. He received an LOR. He has another LOR about a month before and a few other small issues. They informed him then that they intend to demote...but he hasn't heard a word yet about it. It has been two months. He doesn't want to ask...but feels like he is waiting on a boot to drop. So is there a time frame when they need to actually inform someone? Or can it be whenever they get around to it?

Correct me if I am wrong but if he has already recieved paperwork for the instances, the issues are closed...if he did something else-THEN the hammer might fall but...

Per AFI (36-2502), the Commander (O-6 or above) should have made the decision BEFORE the Airman is advised of the intention to demote and the notificaiton is supposed to be in writing...

SomeRandomGuy
09-03-2013, 04:19 PM
I have a co-worker who got in trouble in July. He received an LOR. He has another LOR about a month before and a few other small issues. They informed him then that they intend to demote...but he hasn't heard a word yet about it. It has been two months. He doesn't want to ask...but feels like he is waiting on a boot to drop. So is there a time frame when they need to actually inform someone? Or can it be whenever they get around to it?

The original demotion could have been a threat. On the other hand the information could have been presented to JAG and they sent it back for clarification or denied it. From what I was told commander's have to submit article 15s to JAG before they can even serve you with the paperwork stating they are "considering it". At my last base JAG was allowed up to 3 weeks to respond to the commander's article 15 recommendation (though a commander could lean on them to get it faster). It wouldn't be uncommon for an article 15 to drop around a month after the incident by the time it goes through the process. Not really sure how demotions work but I could see thme following a similar track. With that being said 2 months is a really long time to wait. Most likely they are using the demotion threat to see how your friend has been behaving since the incident.

BENDER56
09-03-2013, 04:20 PM
Consult AFI 36-2502, Chapter 6.

When you say, "They informed him then that they intend to demote ... ," what does that mean? Did they present him with a memorandum from the commander formally notifying him of the intent to demote him? If so, they've already pretty much busted all the subsequent suspenses for the process.

If someone merely said to him, "We're going to demote you," without any formal written notification, then I suppose they can take as long as they want to prepare their case and present the formal notification. Although, if they truly feel this guy shouldn't be wearing his current rank, I'd think they'd want to get off their asses and correct that ASAP and not twiddle their thumbs.

BENDER56
09-03-2013, 04:28 PM
The original demotion could have been a threat. On the other hand the information could have been presented to JAG and they sent it back for clarification or denied it. From what I was told commander's have to submit article 15s to JAG before they can even serve you with the paperwork stating they are "considering it". At my last base JAG was allowed up to 3 weeks to respond to the commander's article 15 recommendation (though a commander could lean on them to get it faster). It wouldn't be uncommon for an article 15 to drop around a month after the incident by the time it goes through the process. Not really sure how demotions work but I could see thme following a similar track. With that being said 2 months is a really long time to wait. Most likely they are using the demotion threat to see how your friend has been behaving since the incident.

I'd guess the overwhelming number of demotions happen through NJP (Article 15), but there also is a process by which commanders can demote airmen administratively for various reasons other than misconduct. It sounds like this is what Shaken is referring to.

Or, perhaps this guy's chain of command isn't clear on the process. If they think they can demote him now because of his previous misconduct, that ship already sailed -- they should have done NJP instead of an LOR. From AFI 36-2502: "6.1. Demotions. Don’t use administrative demotions when it is more appropriate to take actions specified by the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)."

Shaken1976
09-03-2013, 05:41 PM
Consult AFI 36-2502, Chapter 6.

When you say, "They informed him then that they intend to demote ... ," what does that mean? Did they present him with a memorandum from the commander formally notifying him of the intent to demote him? If so, they've already pretty much busted all the subsequent suspenses for the process.

If someone merely said to him, "We're going to demote you," without any formal written notification, then I suppose they can take as long as they want to prepare their case and present the formal notification. Although, if they truly feel this guy shouldn't be wearing his current rank, I'd think they'd want to get off their asses and correct that ASAP and not twiddle their thumbs.

He said no paperwork as of yet. They said with the recent LOR they were going to put in a demotion for failure to perform at given rank or whatever. Not a word has been said since. He was asking if he should say something or if I had heard anything. I haven't yet and it has been two months tomorrow. Personally given the time span and the infractions I don't know that they have a case.

BENDER56
09-03-2013, 06:44 PM
He said no paperwork as of yet. They said with the recent LOR they were going to put in a demotion for failure to perform at given rank or whatever. Not a word has been said since. He was asking if he should say something or if I had heard anything. I haven't yet and it has been two months tomorrow. Personally given the time span and the infractions I don't know that they have a case.

You originally referred to him as a co-worker, so I assume he's not your troop. Officially, nobody should be in the loop about this except for people up his chain of command. So if you were to ask, say, his supervisor or your 1st Sgt about this, their response should be along the lines of, "That's not something I can discuss with you." However, we all know how that goes. If you know someone in his chain of command well enough, they might clue you in as to what's happening.

Shaken1976
09-03-2013, 06:55 PM
You originally referred to him as a co-worker, so I assume he's not your troop. Officially, nobody should be in the loop about this except for people up his chain of command. So if you were to ask, say, his supervisor or your 1st Sgt about this, their response should be along the lines of, "That's not something I can discuss with you." However, we all know how that goes. If you know someone in his chain of command well enough, they might clue you in as to what's happening.

He is a co-worker. We are the same rank. But I am the NCOIC technically. I was there when the LOR was presented.

BENDER56
09-03-2013, 07:06 PM
He is a co-worker. We are the same rank. But I am the NCOIC technically. I was there when the LOR was presented.

Oh, well if that's the case, I'd say you have an official need to know. Ask your 1st Sgt what's going on.

20+Years
09-03-2013, 07:13 PM
Eh, if I was that guy I'd be keeping my head down (as far as trouble) and working my ass off. It would probably help if he also did some things that look good on the Sq. 5/6, CFC rep -- and do an Awesome job! It will be hard for a CC to consider demotion if he keeps seeing positive things about the guy. At this point, he obviously needs to alter the chains perception of him. Its time to get in the game or go home.

SomeRandomGuy
09-03-2013, 08:04 PM
Commander doesn't really need much of a case for an administrative demotion.

Can't a Career Airman or anyobody NCO or higher request a board hearing? Or is that just for separations?

BENDER56
09-03-2013, 08:05 PM
Just curious; is this guy a 10-year-plus SSgt whose demotion would make him an over-HYT SrA who would then be subject to separation?

20+Years
09-03-2013, 09:15 PM
I am thinking the appeal would be the next higher level CC.

sharkhunter
09-03-2013, 09:16 PM
You originally referred to him as a co-worker, so I assume he's not your troop. Officially, nobody should be in the loop about this except for people up his chain of command. So if you were to ask, say, his supervisor or your 1st Sgt about this, their response should be along the lines of, "That's not something I can discuss with you." However, we all know how that goes. If you know someone in his chain of command well enough, they might clue you in as to what's happening.

I understand where you're coming from, however, when I was going through my ordeal, I had a TSgt in my work center who was constantly asking what was going on with me. My supervisor (another TSgt), the NCOIC (highest ranking TSgt), and the Shirt basically told him to F-off! The NCOIC left on terminal in the middle of everything. When the Shirt left, the squadron put someone from within the squadron as temp shirt, the TSgt was able to weasle the information out of the Temp Shirt. I was not happy about it and my sup was not happy about it, but there was no one we could really complain to about the matter. Who do we go to? The shirt at the time?

sharkhunter
09-03-2013, 09:45 PM
I have a co-worker who got in trouble in July. He received an LOR. He has another LOR about a month before and a few other small issues. They informed him then that they intend to demote...but he hasn't heard a word yet about it. It has been two months. He doesn't want to ask...but feels like he is waiting on a boot to drop. So is there a time frame when they need to actually inform someone? Or can it be whenever they get around to it?

Here's what I did and it may/may not help you out
1) Contact ADC and have your co-worker to speak to a lawyer. Pretty much demand to speak to a lawyer. The front desk personnel might not want to schedule an appointment without paperwork because it'll seem that you'll be speaking "theory only" and you'll be wasting the lawyer's time (that's the original answer I got and I didn't take it and neither should you). If the ADC is able to help you, they can make a phone call over to the squadron on your co-worker's behalf.
2) If the ADC cannot/will not help you, gather all the info he/she has and get some legal advice from an off base lawyer. They might be a bit pricy, but you'll soon realize they'll be 100% dedicate to your case whereas the ADC has multiple cases to handle at the same time and cannot dedicate as much time. Off base lawyer might be able to call the squadron as well to see what is happening.
3)If you don't want to go that route just yet and you're in the chain of command, then ask the question to the next higher up or the Shirt to see what's happening. As many have stated, it seems like a really long time has passed. Really state to the next higher up and the shirt that although your troop/co-worker is continuing on with his duties/responsibilties, he's constantly worried/upset about what might happen and all he wants to know what is going to happen to him to get a sense of ease/closure. That should drive some sort of answer out of them. If you don't get an answer, then really think of steps 1/2.
4)Keep him/her busy! Not with silly busy work, but keep him/her busy on their primary and additional duties, esp. if you know if something is going to happen soon. The last thing you want is someone who just sits there and wonder what is going to happen.

BENDER56
09-03-2013, 10:27 PM
...you could probably go to the commander and tell him that you believe his acting First Sergeant improperly released information covered by the Privacy Act.

If you could prove this...and it really bothered you, you could tell him you felt some action should be taken against him and if he wasn't going to, you intend to pursue it further.

Depending on what it was, this could potentially be a pretty big deal.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any explicit prohibition against revealing this type of info. The convention is to try to keep these type of proceedings confidential out of a sense of professionalism and common courtesy, but I don't know of any UCMJ article that prohibits discussing this stuff.

SomeRandomGuy
09-03-2013, 10:34 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any explicit prohibition against revealing this type of info. The convention is to try to keep these type of proceedings confidential out of a sense of professionalism and common courtesy, but I don't know of any UCMJ article that prohibits discussing this stuff.

I think you are correct on this. Otherwise the base newspaper could not post article 15s in the. Granted they leave the names out but it usually says something like "A SSgt from the 88SFS Squadron received an Article 15 for violating Article 92 of the UCMJ Failure to go. He received a reduction in rank to SrA and 2 weeks extra duty"

Maybe its just me but If I am part of 88 SFS and I see a SrA with the outline of SSgt stripes on his arm Im pretty sure I could put 2 and 2 together on this even with the name not mentioned in the paper.

Silverback
09-04-2013, 12:21 AM
He is a co-worker. We are the same rank. But I am the NCOIC technically. I was there when the LOR was presented.

I think you mentioned this guy in another thread one time. I can't remember which one. But you pretty much said this guy would come and go as he pleased and never got in trouble. Well it looks like it finally is catching up to him. The LOR should be enough though.

Silverback
09-04-2013, 12:27 AM
"We have an individual in our work center who is ALWAYS gone. Today he has been here less than 30 minutes. Yet no appointments on the calendar and didn't say anything as to where he would be. This is a CONSTANT issue. Yet no one says anything to him. Or it is just verbal over and over. When he is here he spends the whole time texting. We are the same rank so he doesn't tell me where he is going. He was put in with me so that maybe he wouldn't disappear so much. But no such luck. But he gets an excellent on his PT test so he gets 5 EPRs. So stupid"

I found the thread, it was the thread titled "Ridiculous".

Shaken1976
09-04-2013, 02:40 AM
"We have an individual in our work center who is ALWAYS gone. Today he has been here less than 30 minutes. Yet no appointments on the calendar and didn't say anything as to where he would be. This is a CONSTANT issue. Yet no one says anything to him. Or it is just verbal over and over. When he is here he spends the whole time texting. We are the same rank so he doesn't tell me where he is going. He was put in with me so that maybe he wouldn't disappear so much. But no such luck. But he gets an excellent on his PT test so he gets 5 EPRs. So stupid"

I found the thread, it was the thread titled "Ridiculous".
That guy is gone. They deployed him and moved someone else in.

BRUWIN
09-04-2013, 11:09 AM
I try and stay out of military stuff but I recently met one guy demoted for PT a few weeks back...a SrA and he told me about it, yet he still had his old rank on. So I see him a few days later and he still had it on and I finally had to ask "Hey, I thought you lost a stripe?" He looked at me and said he just hadn't taken it off yet. Had me scratching my head....I'm thinking "where are the supervisors these days?"

Pullinteeth
09-04-2013, 02:55 PM
Can't a Career Airman or anyobody NCO or higher request a board hearing? Or is that just for separations?

No board hearing...

6.5. How to Process an Appeal. The MPS forwards the case to the demotion authority for review. The demotion authority can reverse the previous decision and restore the Airman’s original grade, or forward the case to the appellate authority without comment. If the appellate authority approves the appeal, the appellate authority directs the MPS to restore the Airman’s previous grade and revoke demotion orders.


Just curious; is this guy a 10-year-plus SSgt whose demotion would make him an over-HYT SrA who would then be subject to separation?

Absolutely. They get one shot to make it back and then they are G-O-N-E gone, gone, gone...

DWWSWWD
09-04-2013, 02:59 PM
We're making this way too hard. Go to the Shirt and say, "Hey Shirt, I need to run something by you that is affecting my workcenter. Bob thinks he is getting demoted but it's been 2 months. We shouldn't treat people like that. Can you tell us what's up?" That's it. You also should know that if the CC does try to demote him after 2 months, he'd have a whole lot of explaining to do. It's not happening but he still owes Bob some piece of mind.

BENDER56
09-04-2013, 09:40 PM
Absolutely. They get one shot to make it back and then they are G-O-N-E gone, gone, gone...

Um, my question was directed towards Shaken ... or do you also happen to know the individual she's referring to?