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imported_StandardsAMust
08-31-2013, 01:49 PM
I'm surprised no one has posted this yet. Looks like TA will change for FY14. Still 100% but now supervisors must approve and everyone applying must meet AF Standards to qualify. No failed PT test, UIFs, Control Rosters, Referral performance reports. All not waiverable.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467000/af-tuition-assistance-application-window-delayed-for-fy14.aspx

efmbman
08-31-2013, 01:51 PM
I'm surprised no one has posted this yet. Looks like TA will change for FY14. Still 100% but now supervisors must approve and everyone applying must meet AF Standards to qualify. No failed PT test, UIFs, Control Rosters, Referral performance reports. All not waiverable.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467000/af-tuition-assistance-application-window-delayed-for-fy14.aspx

Interesting... compliance with all standards was required in the Army to use TA. I am surprised that was not the case in the USAF.

sandsjames
08-31-2013, 01:54 PM
Kind of shocking if you ask me. As much emphasis as they put on education, they are going to punish people by not helping them go to school? Now the PT Test will affect 4 blocks if you fail. The PT block, the standards block, the leadership block, and the education block. Nice.

efmbman
08-31-2013, 02:01 PM
Kind of shocking if you ask me. As much emphasis as they put on education, they are going to punish people by not helping them go to school? Now the PT Test will affect 4 blocks if you fail. The PT block, the standards block, the leadership block, and the education block. Nice.

From what I have been reading here for the last few years, PT was the most emphasized of all. And that seems to be confirmed by your conclusion above.

mikezulu1
08-31-2013, 02:20 PM
Why should the airforce and the american people for that matter, pay to send you to college if you arent meeting the MINIMUM standards of service? What other employer would allow you to even remain employed if you didn't? I wouldn't call it "punishing" i like "holding individuals accountable for their actions" better or "personal responsibility"

Bunch
08-31-2013, 02:42 PM
Kind of shocking if you ask me. As much emphasis as they put on education, they are going to punish people by not helping them go to school? Now the PT Test will affect 4 blocks if you fail. The PT block, the standards block, the leadership block, and the education block. Nice.

You still can use the GI Bill.

sandsjames
08-31-2013, 03:47 PM
You still can use the GI Bill.

I agree 100%. In the past I've spoken out against TA altogether. However, if it's there, it should be for everyone. PT is PT. It shouldn't impact ALL aspects of career progression.

efmbman
08-31-2013, 04:25 PM
I agree 100%. In the past I've spoken out against TA altogether. However, if it's there, it should be for everyone. PT is PT. It shouldn't impact ALL aspects of career progression.

PT is PT, but it is part of the deal. The deal is not a secret. The military offers many great benefits. However, there is a catch. One must serve honorably and meet the established standards. If one groups does not meet the established standards but is still allowed to take full advantage of all the military service has to offer then what is the incentive for those that do meet the standards?

Take two troops. #1 passes his PT test and meets all required standards. #2 meets all required standards but is either unwilling or unable to pass the PT test. Both receive full TA. Maybe #2 is in the same class as #1 and even brags "Have fun at the gym later! I'm not going to work out because even if I fail I will still be able to use TA to go to college."

What if you are the supervisor for both the troops? #1 tells you: "I no longer give a crap about PT because #2 is still allowed to use TA and go to college even though he failed the PT test. Why should I care about PT?"

imported_KnuckleDragger
08-31-2013, 04:37 PM
I can get stationed in Germany and not use TA to pay for my German language classes? What a joke.

Getting supervisor approval for the other circumstances, just gives Big Blue someone to hang(other than the individual) if there is a problem.

Failing PT impacts every aspect of your career.

sandsjames
08-31-2013, 05:07 PM
PT is PT, but it is part of the deal. The deal is not a secret. The military offers many great benefits. However, there is a catch. One must serve honorably and meet the established standards. If one groups does not meet the established standards but is still allowed to take full advantage of all the military service has to offer then what is the incentive for those that do meet the standards?

Take two troops. #1 passes his PT test and meets all required standards. #2 meets all required standards but is either unwilling or unable to pass the PT test. Both receive full TA. Maybe #2 is in the same class as #1 and even brags "Have fun at the gym later! I'm not going to work out because even if I fail I will still be able to use TA to go to college."

What if you are the supervisor for both the troops? #1 tells you: "I no longer give a crap about PT because #2 is still allowed to use TA and go to college even though he failed the PT test. Why should I care about PT?"

This argument doesn't hold water. If #2 continues to fail the test, he is no longer in the Air Force and no longer able to use the TA. TA is a benefit. There shouldn't be restrictions on it, except for GPA/passing. And if #1 decides to no longer care about PT because of #2, then he can also be shown the door.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-31-2013, 05:30 PM
If you fail the PT test at any time in your career, the first failure should result in the permanent loss of TA. Second failure should result in losing your GI Bill bennies. If the PT failure occurs after the AF paid your tuition, then you should pay it back. You can set up an allotment for your convenience.

efmbman
08-31-2013, 05:32 PM
This argument doesn't hold water. If #2 continues to fail the test, he is no longer in the Air Force and no longer able to use the TA. TA is a benefit. There shouldn't be restrictions on it, except for GPA/passing. And if #1 decides to no longer care about PT because of #2, then he can also be shown the door.

Right... which means PT affects your career. In post #7 you stated that PT should not affect all aspects of your career, and since you replied in this thread one could come to the conclusion that TA is not an area PT should affect. I'm not sure what we are discussing, unless I misunderstood something.

The ability to use TA being tied to PT is simply a way to motivate troops. Time will tell if it works.

sandsjames
08-31-2013, 05:39 PM
Right... which means PT affects your career. In post #7 you stated that PT should not affect all aspects of your career, and since you replied in this thread one could come to the conclusion that TA is not an area PT should affect. I'm not sure what we are discussing, unless I misunderstood something.

The ability to use TA being tied to PT is simply a way to motivate troops. Time will tell if it works.

No, it's not about motivating anyone. It's about making PT even MORE than it already is. PT should ONLY affect your career as much as failing any other standard does. Now, what they could have done to keep PT out of it is tie it only to referral EPR's (as we know you get from PT failure at the right/wrong time). Instead, they had to mention PT failure specifically. Does this mean if someone shows up late to work they lose TA? If their hair is too long they lose TA? If the do poorly on a SAV they lose TA? Of course it doesn't. What it further proves is that PT is the ONLY standard that matters. If you can ace your PT test you need not do anything else of substance.

TomTom093
08-31-2013, 05:49 PM
We have the easiest test to pass in the DOD. Maybe stop posting on forums and go for a run and see if things don't turn out well for you.

efmbman
08-31-2013, 05:53 PM
I guess I don't understand the outrage because of the difference in the service cultures. As I posted earlier, meeting the standards was required in the Army. Maybe that has not always been the case in the USAF. That's fine - I am not judging. I absolutely understand the reasoning behind this policy. I now also understand the outrage.

Fail the PT test in the Army, and you are "flagged". That mean suspension of favorable personal actions. Getting a TA request approved is favorable. PCS to station of choice is favorable. PCS awards are favorable. Schools (airborne, air assault..) are favorable. I could go on and on, but I think you folks get it. Anything else I could possibly post regarding this would either fall on deaf ears or devolve into beating a dead horse.

imported_DannyJ
08-31-2013, 08:29 PM
I've always said, we have the GI bill. TA should only be for classes that apply to CCAF.

BOSS302
08-31-2013, 09:13 PM
I've always said, we have the GI bill. TA should only be for classes that apply to CCAF.

Yeah well you know perfectly well the consequences that result from using the G.I. Bill for classes while on active duty and thus the "Use your G.I. Bill!" argument is just that; something for the sake of argument. You know that.

I will not lecture you or do anyone's research for them but for the sake clarity/brevity, one basically loses out on a lot of benefits if they use their G.I. Bill for courses while on active duty. The manner in which the G.I. Bill is structured and paid-out is conducive towards a full-time student and not a student who might take 3-9 credit hours per semester. This is why one should talk to their education center and research their VA benefits before abusing them for the sake of an EPR block or a CCAF degree that, apart from the Air Force, is kind of useless.

Tuition Assistance is a privilege and one that is costing the Air Force alone $144 million dollars per fiscal year. It is only right that certain caveats be attached to such a privilege so that only the most deserving are using them. Should PT be one of those? In the words of Sergeant Dignam, "Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe go fuck yourself."

The taxpayer probably doesn't want someone who can't do 33 push-ups or maintain a waist under 39.5" sucking up college funds. The taxpayer also probably doesn't want the Air Force determining the worth of a man based on something as laughable as our PT test. It's a stupid situation and the best way to stay above it is to (1) Pass the easiest PT test in the Armed Forces of the United States, (2) Utilize your Congressionally-approved TA funds while you can, (3) Be thankful your biggest worry is how you will keep getting your free college bennies, and not whether Islamist terror groups will shell your town with chemical mortars or if a USN destroyer will drop a cruise missile in the middle of your neighborhood because everyone in your part of the world is an asshole and are inviting the meddling of even bigger assholes from bigger parts of the world.

sandsjames
08-31-2013, 10:39 PM
The taxpayer probably doesn't want someone who can't do 33 push-ups or maintain a waist under 39.5" sucking up college funds. The taxpayer also probably doesn't want the Air Force determining the worth of a man based on something as laughable as our PT test. It's a stupid situation and the best way to stay above it is to (1) Pass the easiest PT test in the Armed Forces of the United States, (2) Utilize your Congressionally-approved TA funds while you can, (3) Be thankful your biggest worry is how you will keep getting your free college bennies, and not whether Islamist terror groups will shell your town with chemical mortars or if a USN destroyer will drop a cruise missile in the middle of your neighborhood because everyone in your part of the world is an asshole and are inviting the meddling of even bigger assholes from bigger parts of the world.

To me, this is the exact reason we shouldn't take TA away for PT failures. If someone is going to get the boot, I'd at least like them to be educated so they aren't just another unemployed idiot. Of course the first option is getting rid of it for everyone, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

sharkhunter
08-31-2013, 10:59 PM
I can get stationed in Germany and not use TA to pay for my German language classes? What a joke.

.

A lot guys were denied TA for German classes when I was stationed at Spangdahlem in 04-08, it had to be part of their degree plan. The few that did get it were able to justify the class in order fill their elective portions.
I have an assignment to Honduras and I wanted to refresh my spanish, but TA wasn't approved because I have a sociology degree seeking plan and my electives were filled up.

technomage1
09-01-2013, 12:14 AM
I can get stationed in Germany and not use TA to pay for my German language classes? What a joke.

Getting supervisor approval for the other circumstances, just gives Big Blue someone to hang(other than the individual) if there is a problem.

Failing PT impacts every aspect of your career.

This is a problem I have with the AF in general now. They assume if you make 1 mistake you're a total f-up and the drop you. As a consequence we have non risk taking, butt kissing, incompetent boobs in leadership positions. If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning or growing.

imported_DannyJ
09-01-2013, 12:55 AM
Yeah well you know perfectly well the consequences that result from using the G.I. Bill for classes while on active duty and thus the "Use your G.I. Bill!" argument is just that; something for the sake of argument. You know that.

I will not lecture you or do anyone's research for them but for the sake clarity/brevity, one basically loses out on a lot of benefits if they use their G.I. Bill for courses while on active duty. The manner in which the G.I. Bill is structured and paid-out is conducive towards a full-time student and not a student who might take 3-9 credit hours per semester. This is why one should talk to their education center and research their VA benefits before abusing them for the sake of an EPR block or a CCAF degree that, apart from the Air Force, is kind of useless.

So wait until you're out to take classes. Pretty simple if you ask me.

fufu
09-01-2013, 01:08 AM
I'm shocked that we copied ANOTHER GD Army program. Cant we just be the MF'ing AF!

Chief_KO
09-01-2013, 01:32 AM
I think this was a pretty good change. Back in the day you needed your supv's approval. Still in CDCs: NO, Still in UGT: Yes (unless behind schedule), Shift work: NO (there was no on line back then).
TA should be viewed as an earned employment benefit as opposed to an entitlement. Not performing up to the minimal standards of employment, disciplinary/legal issues...not eligible for TA. Makes sense.

omertalifestyle
09-01-2013, 12:12 PM
Great..now the gym is going to be even more packed than it already is. Now instead of 2 1/2 hours it takes for me to get my workout done it's going to take 3 1/2 hours because I'm gonna have to fight retirees, spouses prepping for deployment freedom, fitness freaks, Lardy Mcsquareass, and now all the other people that are going to school to get their degrees. I agree with the control roster and I agree with the Art 15, and to a certain extent the PT portion (cause someone can pass 43 days later and get their TA back), but I don't agree with the UIF. If someone has served out their control roster or Art 15 and have no other issues, the UIF may have been established during that time frame and that stays on your record for 2 years even after you have completed the punishment. So that's 2 years that someone would be unable to get TA, unless the commander ended the UIF early (haven't seen it yet in my 11 1/2 years in). I think that suspended TA should be applied after consecutive fails (someone may have had an off day). One PT fail, yes, doesn't meet standards, but unless there are other fails before or after, there is no trend to show that it is a problem. I know, now that we are getting all Armyfied....lets stop all this BS and start up mandatory PT for all units at 0500, 1700 every day. Oh and lets keep this going, lets ban all tobacco/alcohol usage on base at all times (even in your house). You get caught, Article 15, DOS rollback. 10 minutes early for work and not 15 like it's taught to us, Control roster, DOS rollback (I got an LOC for this one time, I kid you not). Finance screws up your pay and you miss your Starcard payment, Firing squad, DOS rollback. Oh and your wife and kids are forced to work the rest of your enlistment for you. Are we the Air Force or are we North Korea?

BOSS302
09-01-2013, 02:11 PM
So wait until you're out to take classes. Pretty simple if you ask me.

Obviously that's not the answer and, again, you know that. There's nothing wrong with members of the military pursuing their education while on active duty.

There's something to be said about an educated Air Force vs an Air Force full of people with the IQ of a green Koopa Troopa from Mario Brothers. The fact that Tuition Assistance is 100% is not the fault of the military member.

In fact one would be stupid to not take advantage of the 100% TA assistance.

Family members before me in the Air Force took advantage of active duty tuition assistance. It was not 100% but it helped. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking courses while on active duty provided that they do not intrude upon the mission (HINT HINT if one takes a class during lunch, that's their sacrifice; they should not expect to get another hour upon returning from class to eat and fuck off) and the person taking the courses is fully-deserving of taking them (no disciplinary actions on file, no failing of standards, no financial hardships, etc).

BOSS302
09-01-2013, 02:16 PM
To me, this is the exact reason we shouldn't take TA away for PT failures. If someone is going to get the boot, I'd at least like them to be educated so they aren't just another unemployed idiot. Of course the first option is getting rid of it for everyone, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

It is not the Air Force's job to educate it's personnel who cannot meet the easiest of standards. Unfortunately for too long this has been the case. The Air Force and the military as a whole has operated more like a "jobs program" than a military service branch. Expensive privileges such as Tuition Assistance, if it is to stick around at 100%, should be reserved for those who are deserving of them.

Quixotic
09-01-2013, 03:25 PM
I suspect this move to restrict TA from those not meeting various AF standards is a move to reduce wasted money on those most likely not to meet academic standards either.

Quixotic
09-01-2013, 03:30 PM
If you want to start reducing benefits of service as an incentive to meet AF standards, I suggest we start docking pay, and then sit back and watch the PT failure rate plummet.

akruse
09-01-2013, 03:52 PM
If you want to start reducing benefits of service as an incentive to meet AF standards, I suggest we start docking pay, and then sit back and watch the PT failure rate plummet.

Are you kidding me? How much more of a pay cut can you get than getting the boot?

imported_DannyJ
09-01-2013, 04:54 PM
Obviously that's not the answer and, again, you know that. There's nothing wrong with members of the military pursuing their education while on active duty.

There's something to be said about an educated Air Force vs an Air Force full of people with the IQ of a green Koopa Troopa from Mario Brothers. The fact that Tuition Assistance is 100% is not the fault of the military member.

In fact one would be stupid to not take advantage of the 100% TA assistance.

Family members before me in the Air Force took advantage of active duty tuition assistance. It was not 100% but it helped. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking courses while on active duty provided that they do not intrude upon the mission (HINT HINT if one takes a class during lunch, that's their sacrifice; they should not expect to get another hour upon returning from class to eat and fuck off) and the person taking the courses is fully-deserving of taking them (no disciplinary actions on file, no failing of standards, no financial hardships, etc).

Listen, you keep telling me what I know, but that's not the case (also its really condescending). I simply do not agree with taking courses on the USG's dime while on active duty.

Also just cause Amn Snuffy takes a few courses doesn't make him one iota smarter. Most of the morons on AD that I've met are taking a bunch of courses.

BOSS302
09-01-2013, 05:10 PM
Listen, you keep telling me what I know, but that's not the case (also its really condescending). I simply do not agree with taking courses on the USG's dime while on active duty.

Also just cause Amn Snuffy takes a few courses doesn't make him one iota smarter. Most of the morons on AD that I've met are taking a bunch of courses.

And it's really silly for you to tell people to use their G.I. Bill while on active duty knowing the consequences of doing such a thing and even sillier to say that active duty should not take classes using 100% TA benefits. I would assume that your passion against 100% TA benefits is matched by your passion against civilians receiving free college education via government grants?

I look forward to your arguments against other things afforded to active duty personnel on the "government's dime." This should be interesting.

Class5Kayaker
09-03-2013, 02:15 PM
Hell, let's take this whole thing one step farther....if your Wing fails an inspection (UCI, NSI, etc.), then no TA for anyone on that base until they pass. Reason being? They obviously need to focus on the mission more.

Yes, I'm being a bit sarcarstic, but it flows with the supposed logic behind the most recent changes the AF has made to TA. It actually makes more sense than tying it to PT failures.

Pullinteeth
09-03-2013, 03:00 PM
We have the easiest test to pass in the DOD. Maybe stop posting on forums and go for a run and see if things don't turn out well for you.

Might want to take 30 seconds a do a bit of research before you post such drivel. (BTW, when abbreviating, one generally doesn't capitalize an "O" that represents the word "of").


Hell, let's take this whole thing one step farther....if your Wing fails an inspection (UCI, NSI, etc.), then no TA for anyone on that base until they pass. Reason being? They obviously need to focus on the mission more.

Yes, I'm being a bit sarcarstic, but it flows with the supposed logic behind the most recent changes the AF has made to TA. It actually makes more sense than tying it to PT failures.

Oh, and take away the degrees already awarded to any officer involved in the failure... THAT would elimiante failures (they can't get promoted past O-2 without a degree)...

sandsjames
09-03-2013, 05:01 PM
Hell, let's take this whole thing one step farther....if your Wing fails an inspection (UCI, NSI, etc.), then no TA for anyone on that base until they pass. Reason being? They obviously need to focus on the mission more.

Yes, I'm being a bit sarcarstic, but it flows with the supposed logic behind the most recent changes the AF has made to TA. It actually makes more sense than tying it to PT failures.

If only the mission was the most important thing in the Air Force. We all know that's not the way it is.

Rusty Jones
09-03-2013, 05:30 PM
In my experience, when someone is bitching about something taking away from the mission... nine times out of ten, the bitching is not out of genuine concern for the mission.

sandsjames
09-03-2013, 05:37 PM
In my experience, when someone is bitching about something taking away from the mission... nine times out of ten, the bitching is not out of genuine concern for the mission.

Not saying anything is taking away from the mission. Just saying that the impact from non-mission related things on an individual is much stronger than that from mission related.

Other than that, I agree with you. A lot of times people use the mission argument because they just don't like doing the other stuff.

Chief_KO
09-04-2013, 03:12 AM
In my experience, when someone is bitching about something taking away from the mission... nine times out of ten, the bitching is not out of genuine concern for the mission.

Well said Rusty!

BRUWIN
09-04-2013, 11:15 AM
Hell, let's take this whole thing one step farther....if your Wing fails an inspection (UCI, NSI, etc.), then no TA for anyone on that base until they pass. Reason being? They obviously need to focus on the mission more.

Yes, I'm being a bit sarcarstic, but it flows with the supposed logic behind the most recent changes the AF has made to TA. It actually makes more sense than tying it to PT failures.

I think your spot on. For years I've wondered how the government can better motivate itself....military included. The military doesn't see result in profit but we could measure efficiency and performance and in many cases we already do. Tie those result to benefits and you'll have a more motivated workforce. that's what the civilian sector has to do. This automatic benefit crap doesn't help the military.

YesIam
09-04-2013, 01:03 PM
This doesn't mean that can't go to school. They can still do that, they just have to find other avenues to pay for it. There are a ton of scholorships and grants that they can apply for. Oh and that GI Bill that people are not willing to use. And if they are working towards their CCAF then they can CLEP and DANTE.

Lets be serious here. If you have a troop that can not do their job to standards, and yes passing PT is a standard, why oh why would you allow them to take classes so they are even less focussed on what the AF needs them to do? We are talking PT Failures, not scoring an 80+ (although I am suprised that this wasn't the requirement). Once they retest and pass then its game on.

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 01:08 PM
I think your spot on. For years I've wondered how the government can better motivate itself....military included. The military doesn't see result in profit but we could measure efficiency and performance and in many cases we already do. Tie those result to benefits and you'll have a more motivated workforce. that's what the civilian sector has to do. This automatic benefit crap doesn't help the military.

It doesn't help the military in a time when we are reducing manning. It helps the military very much when we are hurting for people. Would they change it back when they start paying people to come back in? Seems like a lot of unneeded hassle.

DWWSWWD
09-04-2013, 01:21 PM
It doesn't help the military in a time when we are reducing manning. It helps the military very much when we are hurting for people. Would they change it back when they start paying people to come back in? When I came in, in 1988, retirement was 40% at 20 years. From 1988 to 1993ish, we were cutting the size of our force in half. When we needed people again, retirement went back to 50%. That is where REDUX came from. SRBs ebb and flow for the same reason. This one though, once it goes away for fatties, will not come back. Have to say I'm surprised at the response here. As much as we bitch about how unfair the test is, how easy it is to have a bad day, everyone seems to be pretty good with having to drop out of school for a PT failure.

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 01:23 PM
When I came in, in 1988, retirement was 40% at 20 years. From 1988 to 1993ish, we were cutting the size of our force in half. When we needed people again, retirement went back to 50%. That is where REDUX came from. SRBs ebb and flow for the same reason. This one though, once it goes away for fatties, will not come back. Have to say I'm surprised at the response here. As much as we bitch about how unfair the test is, how easy it is to have a bad day, everyone seems to be pretty good with having to drop out of school for a PT failure.

I'm not good with it at all. I could see it if school wasn't something that was preached to everyone, all the time. But with the constant harping on it, for them to take it away seems crazy (even though there is still the GI bill).

Airborne
09-05-2013, 12:28 AM
Might as well keep a PT rip in my pocket along with my shaving waiver. I have to display it for everything these days.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-05-2013, 06:44 AM
Everyone can still go to school regardless of PT failures, referral reports, UIFs, Control Rosters, etc...they just have to find other ways to pay since TA won't cover it. That's really it.

airgunny
09-05-2013, 01:14 PM
This is what I don't understand, PT has nothing to do with an academic type environment, whereas TA does. So how about we tie in your ability to get TA with your scores from WAPS testing? You should have to score a 60 or higher on both the SKT and PDG portions of the test to qualify for TA for that year. If you don't score high enough, no TA for the year and better luck next year. Last year when I tested as soon as we started an individual immediately got up and turned her test in. I also had an Airman get drunk the night before testing and over slept. His punishment for missing the test was that he wouldn't have a chance to get promoted that year. In both instances, they were using TA. Really, we'll allow someone like to them to get TA even though they didn't even attempt to get promoted. But fail your PT test and your ass is done.

sandsjames
09-05-2013, 01:23 PM
This is what I don't understand, PT has nothing to do with an academic type environment, whereas TA does. So how about we tie in your ability to get TA with your scores from WAPS testing? You should have to score a 60 or higher on both the SKT and PDG portions of the test to qualify for TA for that year. If you don't score high enough, no TA for the year and better luck next year. Last year when I tested as soon as we started an individual immediately got up and turned her test in. I also had an Airman get drunk the night before testing and over slept. His punishment for missing the test was that he wouldn't have a chance to get promoted that year. In both instances, they were using TA. Really, we'll allow someone like to them to get TA even though they didn't even attempt to get promoted. But fail your PT test and your ass is done.

Nobody cares if you know your job information or military history and regulations, etc. That's not important.

Airborne
09-05-2013, 11:38 PM
This is what I don't understand, PT has nothing to do with an academic type environment, whereas TA does. So how about we tie in your ability to get TA with your scores from WAPS testing? You should have to score a 60 or higher on both the SKT and PDG portions of the test to qualify for TA for that year. If you don't score high enough, no TA for the year and better luck next year. Last year when I tested as soon as we started an individual immediately got up and turned her test in. I also had an Airman get drunk the night before testing and over slept. His punishment for missing the test was that he wouldn't have a chance to get promoted that year. In both instances, they were using TA. Really, we'll allow someone like to them to get TA even though they didn't even attempt to get promoted. But fail your PT test and your ass is done.

Well thats what we get when we have a system that says you must test or you get out. Plenty of people dont want to get promoted at certain times and I have no problem with that. If they were allowed to declare that they didnt want to test it would save some resources.

cloudFFVII
09-07-2013, 01:50 AM
I've got no problem whatsoever with TA being tied to PT.

In a 360K ADAF (at least that's the last figure I've seen), about 1.5% or so fail the PT test.

So less then 4000 people, ultimately, are affected by this.

And usually (not saying ALWAYS, just usually) there are other issues going on with a member who fails a PT test outside of just fitness.

TA is a BENEFIT, not a RIGHT. If you can't take care of a basic military responsibly such as passing your PT test, then why SHOULD you be entrusted with TA?

For me, the more concerning issue (and one I haven't seen anything posted about) is the supervisor requirement:
Good: Supervisor now MUST take an active role in their subordinate's development, review their education plan and approve it.
Bad: There's throwaway language that the supervisor could crutch with to deny one of their subordinate's TA (if someone has the actual Q & A, it's in there, they can deny for sure if a member is in PME, getting ready to PCS/PCA or in UGT, but I could see some supervisors out there wielding this like a hammer unfairly against our members. While Chief Cody did state "the supervisor has a supervisor too" if this happened, I think we all know the odds of someone going over that supervisor's head, absent them being completely unreasonable, are pretty small).

Drackore
09-07-2013, 06:53 AM
Ok so let's say you do fail PT. Don't you have more important things to worry about than taking a college course...like...working out to pass the next PT test? Or would you rather lose a line number/stripe and eventually get DOS rollback or lose your job? (which means you lose TA forever)

If you have to do SOMETHING and don't want to use GI Bill (because you want to give it to spouse/kids, I can understand that)...there are a lot of cert programs to study on IT e-Learning off of the AF Portal. Start doing those on your free time in between semesters and FIP sessions (fatty mcfatty).

imported_StandardsAMust
09-07-2013, 07:32 AM
I've got no problem whatsoever with TA being tied to PT.

In a 360K ADAF (at least that's the last figure I've seen), about 1.5% or so fail the PT test.

So less then 4000 people, ultimately, are affected by this.

And usually (not saying ALWAYS, just usually) there are other issues going on with a member who fails a PT test outside of just fitness.

TA is a BENEFIT, not a RIGHT. If you can't take care of a basic military responsibly such as passing your PT test, then why SHOULD you be entrusted with TA?

For me, the more concerning issue (and one I haven't seen anything posted about) is the supervisor requirement:
Good: Supervisor now MUST take an active role in their subordinate's development, review their education plan and approve it.
Bad: There's throwaway language that the supervisor could crutch with to deny one of their subordinate's TA (if someone has the actual Q & A, it's in there, they can deny for sure if a member is in PME, getting ready to PCS/PCA or in UGT, but I could see some supervisors out there wielding this like a hammer unfairly against our members. While Chief Cody did state "the supervisor has a supervisor too" if this happened, I think we all know the odds of someone going over that supervisor's head, absent them being completely unreasonable, are pretty small).

Ummm...that number is currently almost 18,000 right now. Another 65,000 are currently on a profile and do not take parts of the test.

sandsjames
09-07-2013, 11:41 AM
Ok so let's say you do fail PT. Don't you have more important things to worry about than taking a college course...like...working out to pass the next PT test? Or would you rather lose a line number/stripe and eventually get DOS rollback or lose your job? (which means you lose TA forever)

If you have to do SOMETHING and don't want to use GI Bill (because you want to give it to spouse/kids, I can understand that)...there are a lot of cert programs to study on IT e-Learning off of the AF Portal. Start doing those on your free time in between semesters and FIP sessions (fatty mcfatty).

As long as you also lose it for not shaving, failing an inspection, missing a deadline, showing up late, etc, etc. Oh, and if you also don't meet your supervisors standard on self improvement, you should also lose it. That's right. If you don't further your education, you should lose the ability to further your education. They are ALL standards, so they should ALL have the same impact.

The issue ISN'T losing it do to PT issues. The issue is that all standards aren't being treated equally.

Rainmaker
09-07-2013, 02:03 PM
Why should the airforce and the american people for that matter, pay to send you to college if you arent meeting the MINIMUM standards of service? What other employer whould allow you to even remain employe if you didnt. I wouldnt call it "punishing" i like "holding individuals accountable for their actions" better or "personal responsibility"

Das Raciss.

Rainmaker
09-07-2013, 02:44 PM
Most of the companies holding staff augmentation support contracts in Rainmaker's organization provide 100% Tuition reimbursement to their employees.

If you lard asses are too lazy to mix in some situps, then go to work for the contractors. contrary to popular belief. they ain't going away anytime soon folks. sure they trimming some dead wood for show. but, long term (as govt. downsizes) they're only gonna grow. Reading the tea leaves. there's no way in good conscience Rainmaker would recommend making the military a career to any enlisted man with under 8 years of service.

Rainmaker dismayed at all the selfishness being displayed by today's airman. CMSAF Cody wants you to think about big picture NomSayin. (did he and his wife use TA for their degree?) anyhow, Right now in this country. We have millions of Mexican babies to support and oil/natural gas routes all over the middle east to protect for the captains of industry who built this country and the bankers that made it all possible by only charging them nominal interest and all you people can do is whine about wanting to take some free classes on your off duty time.

RetC141BFCC
09-07-2013, 03:04 PM
I guess I don't understand the outrage because of the difference in the service cultures. As I posted earlier, meeting the standards was required in the Army. Maybe that has not always been the case in the USAF. That's fine - I am not judging. I absolutely understand the reasoning behind this policy. I now also understand the outrage.

Fail the PT test in the Army, and you are "flagged". That mean suspension of favorable personal actions. Getting a TA request approved is favorable. PCS to station of choice is favorable. PCS awards are favorable. Schools (airborne, air assault..) are favorable. I could go on and on, but I think you folks get it. Anything else I could possibly post regarding this would either fall on deaf ears or devolve into beating a dead horse.

I just have one question for you. Does the Army allow you to due PT on duty or is it all off duty?
Thanks

efmbman
09-07-2013, 03:24 PM
I just have one question for you. Does the Army allow you to due PT on duty or is it all off duty?
Thanks

For the most part, the Army considers PT as part of the duty day. Here are some examples from my experience:

In the line units (real units, units with numbers in front) first formation is for PT at 0630-0730. 0730 - 0900 is breakfast and personal hygiene. Work call at 0900.

Some units have to switch it up due to the mission. When I was in Germany, my unit was responsible for the post sick call at 0630. We did our PT in the afternoon 1500-1600.

In garrison units (desk drivers and REMFs) PT was talked about a lot but not actually enforced by senior leaders. It was the E5 and E6s that made it happen whenever time was found for it. Officers would do whatever it is they do away from the prying eyes of the enlisted... and the NCOs did not want them around anyway. Sometimes a new LT would participate in an effort to learn about the troops and be seen, but a Major would "correct" that LT after about a month.

Rainmaker
09-07-2013, 03:29 PM
As long as you also lose it for not shaving, failing an inspection, missing a deadline, showing up late, etc, etc. Oh, and if you also don't meet your supervisors standard on self improvement, you should also lose it. That's right. If you don't further your education, you should lose the ability to further your education. They are ALL standards, so they should ALL have the same impact.

The issue ISN'T losing it do to PT issues. The issue is that all standards aren't being treated equally.

But, Rainmaker get shaving bumps NomSayin?

RetC141BFCC
09-07-2013, 06:00 PM
One more question from this ROF (retired Old Folk.) Can you get TA prior to finshing your CDCs and getting your 5 leval? That use to be the standard

Capt Alfredo
09-07-2013, 06:25 PM
For the most part, the Army considers PT as part of the duty day. Here are some examples from my experience:

In the line units (real units, units with numbers in front) first formation is for PT at 0630-0730. 0730 - 0900 is breakfast and personal hygiene. Work call at 0900.

Some units have to switch it up due to the mission. When I was in Germany, my unit was responsible for the post sick call at 0630. We did our PT in the afternoon 1500-1600.

In garrison units (desk drivers and REMFs) PT was talked about a lot but not actually enforced by senior leaders. It was the E5 and E6s that made it happen whenever time was found for it. Officers would do whatever it is they do away from the prying eyes of the enlisted... and the NCOs did not want them around anyway. Sometimes a new LT would participate in an effort to learn about the troops and be seen, but a Major would "correct" that LT after about a month.

And what time is the end of the duty day? 1630? Easy to do that when your mission is just to train. Harder when you're generating sorties, etc.

Chief_KO
09-07-2013, 06:59 PM
One more question from this ROF (retired Old Folk.) Can you get TA prior to finshing your CDCs and getting your 5 leval? That use to be the standard

Under the old system, yes. TA request and approval by-passed the supv and went straight to educ center. Folks are hung up on the PT rqmt, but with supv approval now required there are several other things that could deny an Airmen TA. Interesting that deployments are one...so many folks (even MAINTAINERS) are taking classes at the Deid...

efmbman
09-07-2013, 07:11 PM
And what time is the end of the duty day? 1630? Easy to do that when your mission is just to train. Harder when you're generating sorties, etc.

The end of the duty day depends on the unit and the mission. Some are very predictable, others are not. But it can be done regardless of the mission. Units I was assigned to managed to work in PT when deployed as well. Desert Storm, Bosnia, other places too. Desert Storm was over in 100 hours, but 3 days after hostilities ceased, we were doing PT again. Bosnia was terrifying because the whole place was one massive minefield. I spent 6 years in recruiting and in that environment it is completely up to the individual to maintain the standards. Typical duty day there was up at 0500 to get someone to MEPS and not getting home until 2100 because you have to have met benchmarks each day such as school visits, appointment, etc. That did not bother me so much because I knew that while I got to sleep in my bed every night, there were about 100,000 troops in the combat zone that were away from family. NCOs that take standards seriously are easy to spot - their uniform fits and it is the same size as when they started recruiting.

It is very easy to come up with excuses for not doing PT. The way I see it, the USAF is giving a very good reason for doing PT. The choice is up to the airmen affected. Those that make policies such as this already have their education and degrees. It does not affect them.

sharkhunter
09-12-2013, 11:12 PM
Looking away from PT
For the members who received a referral or UIF, it seems that its taking away an opportunity to better themselves. Yes I know this doesn't stop a member from taking classes, but many can't afford to fork over the $600-800 for a college class. That's where TA really came in to help out, but now the member will have to wait 1 year after a referral EPR, (unless a CC asks for another) or two years after being placed on a UIF. That's a really long time to go without any college education.

Capt Alfredo
09-12-2013, 11:33 PM
I agree. Sometimes the AF really piles the shit on you...

Okay, you fail a PT test...sure there should be consequences for that...but then, it's like BAM...you get a referall EPR, ineligible for promotion, can't go to PME, can't go to school...you're a total pariah...your supervisor looks down on you, sq leadershop labels you 'problem child', coworkers gossiping...it's like everything you worked for collapses

I've never failed one, luckily, but seen this play out too many times...it's like, there's no more dust yourself off and get back in there...it's a long slow downward spiral with all these ripple effects

On the bright side, it gives you a chance to practice resiliency.

sandsjames
09-12-2013, 11:50 PM
On the bright side, it gives you a chance to practice resiliency.

I both like and dislike this.

BOSS302
09-13-2013, 08:08 AM
I agree. Sometimes the AF really piles the shit on you...

Okay, you fail a PT test...sure there should be consequences for that...but then, it's like BAM...you get a referall EPR, ineligible for promotion, can't go to PME, can't go to school...you're a total pariah...your supervisor looks down on you, sq leadershop labels you 'problem child', coworkers gossiping...it's like everything you worked for collapses

I've never failed one, luckily, but seen this play out too many times...it's like, there's no more dust yourself off and get back in there...it's a long slow downward spiral with all these ripple effects

You're better off getting a DUI. At least then, the Chief and/or supervisor will say, "He's a good worker..." and then they will partake in a quarter-long quest to "set you up for success".

Failing a PT test in the USAF is the modern-day equivalent of the "Scarlet Letter."

dan5522
09-13-2013, 09:55 AM
You're better off getting a DUI. At least then, the Chief and/or supervisor will say, "He's a good worker..." and then they will partake in a quarter-long quest to "set you up for success".

Failing a PT test in the USAF is the modern-day equivalent of the "Scarlet Letter."

I couldn't agree with you more! With all the emphasis on PT there should be more assistance out there for those that need it. Failing a PT test is not a crime, however you are treated worse than those that have committed a crime. What I mean by that is DUI is a crime. In reality your career has a better chance of surviving a criminal offense than failing a PT test! Yea that makes sense.

What I also mean by help for it is not going to the HAWC and being told how to live. I am sure that helps some but shouldn't there be even better programs that are offered since this is now a career ender? Again, you could tell your boss on Monday morning that you were drunk all weekend or got high all weekend and get intervention, I dare you to walk into work and tell your boss Monday morning that you overate all weekend and think you may have a problem. See what happens when you do that. A trip to the how to eat right class and how to work out better class!