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imported_StandardsAMust
08-27-2013, 08:46 AM
This is to the editiorial staff at AFT,

Over the past few years, your paper has run articles blasting the Air Force fitness program. You call upon leaders to allow members with bigger waists to pass, you did a body fat experiment that you claimed proves the DoD is wrong with their taping guidance. Ironically, the only AF member you tested would have failed both anyway. It's time that you stop relying on people reaching out to you with horror stories...go and see for yourself.

I challenge you to take a look at our program from the inside before you come to such conclusions. Here's what I challenge you with.

Contact your nearest AF Base and ask permission to watch how our PT Tests are conducted. Pick the last three duty days of any calendar month (FACs are full), avoid any other time of the month because you will be wasting your time, and send a reporter to the FAC for the entire day(s). Here's what your mission would be:

1. Count the number of AF members who test during the period
2. Count the number who show up on a profile and capture their exempted components
3. Watch the A/C tests of each member (this requires you send a female reporter too)
4. Watch the P/U and S/U portion and watch how some do their pushups and situps...check their form against AFI guidance
5. Evaluate our "highly trained" PTLs who oversea the tests and watch how they count each rep.
6. Watch the 1.5 mile run and evaluate your thoughts on those running the required distance. Don't be surprised if you see people walking during the run.
7. Since only 2 in 100 fail the test according to AF stats, I doubt you will see anyone fail, but if you do see an alarming spike in failures, it would be interesting for you to report what you see to AF leadership.

Bottom line, this is what you will notice: 3 in 10 will be on a profile, will come in and get taped, then leave the facility, 1 in 10 will be on a profile where they come in and get taped, and then do p/u or s/u, but no cardio. 4 in 10 will take the entire test and pass, 2 in 10 will score below an 80 and/or fail the assessment.

During the A/C measurements you will notice how our PTLs may have trouble finding the iliac crest of some of our member's hip bones. I think you will be grossed out when you see this process. Not everyone who fails the waist measurement are professional bodybuilders like some want you to think.

I think you will be shocked at what you discover.

Oh, one more thing, talk to the FAC staff and PTLs and report on what they see...I'm sure it would make for some fantastic reporting.
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FROM AF.MIL

Michael R

I currently work at a FAC and have failed almost one hundred people, of those guess how many failed due to their muscular build? Not even one. In addition, I have only known one person in my whole career that failed because their waist was too big from body building. Most of the arguments here are either from people that don't get 90's due to their waist (body builders) or because they've failed a AC measurement simply because they are fat. If you're in the Air Force and your fat, FIX IT OR MOVE ON. Stop blaming the Air Force for your lack of exercise, put down the Twinkies and get off the couch. Physical Fitness is a standard for you to maintain. If you think that because you have seventeen years in the service you should be allowed to look nasty in your uniform then you're just ignorant. The Air Force isn't here to alter its needs to fit you, plain and simple.

RS6405
08-27-2013, 10:48 AM
Standards, I respect your pride and belief in the military system and the DoD rules and regulations. I am sure most of the examples you cite are true (fat vs body builders).

However, I wonder how many old school service members (& their families) rolled their eyes at the notion that the DoD can never be wrong? That is a pretty tall order.

Fitness requirements have been in the USAF for over 50 years. While my first hand knowledge on the subject is pretty dated, I cannot help but see similarities between the way it once was and how it is now.

I know that my father was forced to take high blood pressure medicine for 10 years because of USAF standards failed to take into account the body God and genetics gave him. He was one of the tallest members in the Air Force during his time at 6'9. He had a size 18 shoe, hands nearly twice the size of some members, and the bone structure to match. (He grew to that size a year after joining).

A regular blood pressure cuff was too small to accurately gage his BP, so, like I said, for 10 years he had to take BP meds. (I wonder what that did to his body?). They also gave him hell for not matching the fitness standards (mainly the waist measurement).

Well, that was until a genius took into account his actual body structure. After using a larger cuff, it was discovered that his BP was normal. Also taking his height-weight ratio into account and using that ratio to his waist, he was well within fit standards.

Of course, they AF may not now allow members who, after joining, grow beyond the maximum height requirements to stay in the service. Yet, I believe the same standard could apply when comparing the tallest allowable member compared to the shortest allowable member.

Just my two cents on cookie cutter concepts.

AJBIGJ
08-27-2013, 11:08 AM
Standards, I respect your pride and belief in the military system and the DoD rules and regulations. I am sure most of the examples you cite are true (fat vs body builders).

However, I wonder how many old school service members (& their families) rolled their eyes at the notion that the DoD can never be wrong? That is a pretty tall order.

Fitness requirements have been in the USAF for over 50 years. While my first hand knowledge on the subject is pretty dated, I cannot help but see similarities between the way it once was and how it is now.

I know that my father was forced to take high blood pressure medicine for 10 years because of USAF standards failed to take into account the body God and genetics gave him. He was one of the tallest members in the Air Force during his time at 6'9. He had a size 18 shoe, hands nearly twice the size of some members, and the bone structure to match. (He grew to that size a year after joining).

A regular blood pressure cuff was too small to accurately gage his BP, so, like I said, for 10 years he had to take BP meds. (I wonder what that did to his body?). They also gave him hell for not matching the fitness standards (mainly the waist measurement).

Well, that was until a genius took into account his actual body structure. After using a larger cuff, it was discovered that his BP was normal. Also taking his height-weight ratio into account and using that ratio to his waist, he was well within fit standards.

Of course, they AF may not now allow members who, after joining, grow beyond the maximum height requirements to stay in the service. Yet, I believe the same standard could apply when comparing the tallest allowable member compared to the shortest allowable member.

Just my two cents on cookie cutter concepts.

Yeah, this is one of those concepts they will never truly get right. For the Navy side at least, the standards pretty much change every time a new MCPON comes into place. I understand the concept in abstract, essentially we're collectively trying to get a better ROI by not sending a bunch of heart attack patients to the VA after retirement. Is it properly executed? Well, if I had that level of Medical Expertise I would be a whole lot busier making a whole lot more money in the process. I know the AF side of the house has their very strong opinions on the subject. I think of this issue as one of those things you just basically deal with what comes, at least we know it's an open book test, the book just happens to have a lot of revisions.

UH1FE
08-27-2013, 11:11 AM
Highly trained PTL's? That's a joke right? More like just enough to make it seem like we trained them.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-27-2013, 11:49 AM
Highly trained PTL's? That's a joke right? More like just enough to make it seem like we trained them.

You know what I'm talking about...AFT needs to see it for themselves.

20+Years
08-27-2013, 12:51 PM
I would like to propose a different test that I think would show more valuable results.

Bring in 10 PTLs that perform tests on people. Bring in 10 personnel to be tested "waist only". Have each PTL perform the waist measurment on each of the 10 people. Last step: Explain why there is a variance in results.

Just to keep it really fair, include different genders and builds. Some tubby, some not. Some high hip bones, some low.

Out of 10 PTLs how many measurements do you think would match on paper?

This is the REAL problem with the tape test.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-27-2013, 01:04 PM
I would like to propose a different test that I think would show more valuable results.

Bring in 10 PTLs that perform tests on people. Bring in 10 personnel to be tested "waist only". Have each PTL perform the waist measurment on each of the 10 people. Last step: Explain why there is a variance in results.

Just to keep it really fair, include different genders and builds. Some tubby, some not. Some high hip bones, some low.

Out of 10 PTLs how many measurements do you think would match on paper?

This is the REAL problem with the tape test.

I think the real problem is that we don't have enough training on proper nutrition.

That crowd of people who claim they fail the tape test because they are body builders are in denial about being fat.

They might lift weights and even have big biceps, but everyone I've ever seen who claimed that has a big roll of fat around their waist.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-27-2013, 01:52 PM
I think the real problem is that we don't have enough training on proper nutrition.

That crowd of people who claim they fail the tape test because they are body builders are in denial about being fat.

They might lift weights and even have big biceps, but everyone I've ever seen who claimed that has a big roll of fat around their waist.

That's what I have observed over the past few years as well...where are these rock star athletes that are failing the tape but maxing everything else? I have yet to see one.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-27-2013, 01:54 PM
I would like to propose a different test that I think would show more valuable results.

Bring in 10 PTLs that perform tests on people. Bring in 10 personnel to be tested "waist only". Have each PTL perform the waist measurment on each of the 10 people. Last step: Explain why there is a variance in results.

Just to keep it really fair, include different genders and builds. Some tubby, some not. Some high hip bones, some low.

Out of 10 PTLs how many measurements do you think would match on paper?

This is the REAL problem with the tape test.

The issue is how you measure someone who is large and in charge. Like I said before, those people who you CAN'T find the hip bone because they are that big. I could care less about measuring people 35" or less...the problem lies measuring those that are 40" around or females that are 36" around. There are many big women coming back to the unit with 30" waist measurements but have BMIs in the 30's...not adding up. What are they wrapping the tape around? Their thighs?

Capt Alfredo
08-30-2013, 04:11 PM
The issue is how you measure someone who is large and in charge. Like I said before, those people who you CAN'T find the hip bone because they are that big. I could care less about measuring people 35" or less...the problem lies measuring those that are 40" around or females that are 36" around. There are many big women coming back to the unit with 30" waist measurements but have BMIs in the 30's...not adding up. What are they wrapping the tape around? Their thighs?

Let's say that's true, if passing is 39.499999 and failing is 39.5, then getting it right is of the utmost importance. It doesn't matter if YOU think anyone with a 39.x waist is a disgusting fatbody; the Air Force says otherwise. Inconsistency in measurements is a problem under the current system.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-30-2013, 04:51 PM
Let's say that's true, if passing is 39.499999 and failing is 39.5, then getting it right is of the utmost importance. It doesn't matter if YOU think anyone with a 39.x waist is a disgusting fatbody; the Air Force says otherwise. Inconsistency in measurements is a problem under the current system.

I would counter that by saying that 39.5 is being very generous, a person is fat at 36 and above, don't care how tall they are either.

Capt Alfredo
08-30-2013, 04:54 PM
I would counter that by saying that 39.5 is being very generous, a person is fat at 36 and above, don't care how tall they are either.

Key word is YOU. You feel this way. The Air Force does not. Can you not appreciate the argument here? Let's say we set the limit at 36. We'd still have issues with the measurements because 35.999999999 would be passing in your book and 36 would be fail. Inconsistency would still be an issue.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-30-2013, 07:25 PM
Key word is YOU. You feel this way. The Air Force does not. Can you not appreciate the argument here? Let's say we set the limit at 36. We'd still have issues with the measurements because 35.999999999 would be passing in your book and 36 would be fail. Inconsistency would still be an issue.

I would say me and the NIH feel that way. At 40 inches your risk of obesity related disease dramatically increases but you are already getting into the overweight zone at 36 inches for all heights.

I get your point about accurate measurements and agree.

My point is if a person starts to enter the overweight zone they need to take charge of their health and make changes to their personal diet and exercise regimen.

Why should any individual want to let themself drift into the margin of error or even the overweight zone?

Let me ask, how many other standards should a person be happy with just squeezing by with a 1/4 of an inch to spare?

Most of the forum members here routinely express a high degree of admiration for people who excel at their primary duty and disdain for those who are mediocre. Why should physical fitness be any different?

My point is that 40 inches is generous because you are obese at that point.

The Air Force is being generous not taking punitative measures for the overweight zones.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-31-2013, 06:58 AM
I would say me and the NIH feel that way. At 40 inches your risk of obesity related disease dramatically increases but you are already getting into the overweight zone at 36 inches for all heights.

I get your point about accurate measurements and agree.

My point is if a person starts to enter the overweight zone they need to take charge of their health and make changes to their personal diet and exercise regimen.

Why should any individual want to let themself drift into the margin of error or even the overweight zone?

Let me ask, how many other standards should a person be happy with just squeezing by with a 1/4 of an inch to spare?

Most of the forum members here routinely express a high degree of admiration for people who excel at their primary duty and disdain for those who are mediocre. Why should physical fitness be any different?

My point is that 40 inches is generous because you are obese at that point.

The Air Force is being generous not taking punitative measures for the overweight zones.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. That's why I don't buy the arguments when someone fails by one or two push-ups or one or two seconds. Star performers won't cut it that close. If you're near 40 inches, your supervisor has failed you and you have failed yourself. Unfortunately, there's a lot of that happening now.

MaintChief
09-02-2013, 05:25 PM
I would say me and the NIH feel that way. At 40 inches your risk of obesity related disease dramatically increases but you are already getting into the overweight zone at 36 inches for all heights.

I get your point about accurate measurements and agree.

My point is if a person starts to enter the overweight zone they need to take charge of their health and make changes to their personal diet and exercise regimen.

Why should any individual want to let themself drift into the margin of error or even the overweight zone?

Let me ask, how many other standards should a person be happy with just squeezing by with a 1/4 of an inch to spare?

Most of the forum members here routinely express a high degree of admiration for people who excel at their primary duty and disdain for those who are mediocre. Why should physical fitness be any different?

My point is that 40 inches is generous because you are obese at that point.

The Air Force is being generous not taking punitative measures for the overweight zones.

I agree. Let's extend this to things that actually matter...fail your CDC's...mandatory referral EPR and placement on the control roster. Fail a QA eval...mandatory referral EPR and placement on the control roster. Need a haircut...first offense is an Article 15. Subsequent offense is admin demotion and processing for discharge for failure to maintain standards. Late to work? Same.

I retired 2 years ago. My current employer does not give a shit what I weigh. They do give a shit if I can do my job. I laugh all the way to the bank every month with my CMSgt retired pay and my VA disability (caused in part by the USAF PT program...shot knees/arthritis).

The PT program is first, foremost, and always has been a Force Shaping tool. It has NO relation to health or what happens after retirement.

Pullinteeth
09-03-2013, 03:45 PM
I would say me and the NIH feel that way. At 40 inches your risk of obesity related disease dramatically increases but you are already getting into the overweight zone at 36 inches for all heights.

So you would say that someone that is 4'11" with a 36" waist is "getting into" the overweight zone at 36" to the exact same extent as someone that is 6'6" with a 36" waist?

imported_UncommonSense
09-03-2013, 07:55 PM
...Let me ask, how many other standards should a person be happy with just squeezing by with a 1/4 of an inch to spare?...


Hair length, tattoo coverage, fingernail length, rolled-up sleeves on the ABU, sleeve length on the service coat, back length of the service coat, nametag placement on womens blues shirt, etc...

Absinthe Anecdote
09-03-2013, 08:07 PM
So you would say that someone that is 4'11" with a 36" waist is "getting into" the overweight zone at 36" to the exact same extent as someone that is 6'6" with a 36" waist?

Yep, I’m saying that.

I don’t care how tall you are, once your waist starts going above 36 inches you are starting to get fat around your belly.

My point being the process of getting fat does not happen overnight; you have plenty of warning to turn the situation around before you get into the zone of being obese or close enough to it puts you in danger of “falling victim” to a bad measurement.
If you bust the waist measurement, there really isn’t much excuse in my opinion.

You let yourself get that way. Pay attention to your diet and you exercise routine and you can avoid the hassle.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-03-2013, 08:08 PM
Hair length, tattoo coverage, fingernail length, rolled-up sleeves on the ABU, sleeve length on the service coat, back length of the service coat, nametag placement on womens blues shirt, etc...

You got me there!

imported_StandardsAMust
09-04-2013, 06:55 AM
Yep, I’m saying that.

I don’t care how tall you are, once your waist starts going above 36 inches you are starting to get fat around your belly.

My point being the process of getting fat does not happen overnight; you have plenty of warning to turn the situation around before you get into the zone of being obese or close enough to it puts you in danger of “falling victim” to a bad measurement.
If you bust the waist measurement, there really isn’t much excuse in my opinion.

You let yourself get that way. Pay attention to your diet and you exercise routine and you can avoid the hassle.

So, if you fail the waist measurement, you didn't just have a "bad" day? You are on target with this one and the same can be said for the other components as well. Most just hide behind a profile now.

jshiver15
09-04-2013, 03:17 PM
Most of the forum members here routinely express a high degree of admiration for people who excel at their primary duty and disdain for those who are mediocre. Why should physical fitness be any different?

While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, I have to point out that physical fitness in itself plays little-to-no factor in a vast majority of our jobs and I think that's what most people are getting at. Granted, a situation could possibly occur when you're deployed that physical fitness could mean life or death, but again, for a vast majority of our jobs the possibility is very minimal. So I think that's where most people find issue with making the distinction between a good Airman (39") and a bad Airman (39.5").

sandsjames
09-04-2013, 03:20 PM
Granted, a situation could possibly occur when you're deployed that physical fitness could mean life or death, but again, for a vast majority of our jobs the possibility is very minimal. This is nothing but crap the Air Force feeds us. It's not at all about playing a part in a deployed situation. If that was the case, why do we do pushups, situps? Woman don't have to be nearly as strong as men, yet they are in the same deployed positions men are in. So the strength part plays no part. Neither does the waist. The only thing that plays a part is the cardio, and almost nobody complains about that part of the test.

jshiver15
09-04-2013, 03:34 PM
This is nothing but crap the Air Force feeds us. It's not at all about playing a part in a deployed situation. If that was the case, why do we do pushups, situps? Woman don't have to be nearly as strong as men, yet they are in the same deployed positions men are in. So the strength part plays no part. Neither does the waist. The only thing that plays a part is the cardio, and almost nobody complains about that part of the test.

No, I agree. I honestly think that the AF PT program is just a force-shaping tool. But I was lending rationale to their "reasoning".

Pullinteeth
09-04-2013, 05:57 PM
Yep, I’m saying that.

I don’t care how tall you are, once your waist starts going above 36 inches you are starting to get fat around your belly.

My point being the process of getting fat does not happen overnight; you have plenty of warning to turn the situation around before you get into the zone of being obese or close enough to it puts you in danger of “falling victim” to a bad measurement.
If you bust the waist measurement, there really isn’t much excuse in my opinion.

You let yourself get that way. Pay attention to your diet and you exercise routine and you can avoid the hassle.

Then you are MUCH stupider than I thought... Anyone that thinks waist size is the ONLY determining factor when it comes to obesity....can't be all that bright.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-04-2013, 06:37 PM
While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, I have to point out that physical fitness in itself plays little-to-no factor in a vast majority of our jobs and I think that's what most people are getting at. Granted, a situation could possibly occur when you're deployed that physical fitness could mean life or death, but again, for a vast majority of our jobs the possibility is very minimal. So I think that's where most people find issue with making the distinction between a good Airman (39") and a bad Airman (39.5").

That is not what people are being measured on in the PT program. The sooner a person realizes what the standard is and how to meet or exceed it the better off they are going to be within the confines of the PT program.
Arguing against it on a philosophical level or the basis of a group perspective isn’t going to help you during the test.

That is one of my points.


Then you are MUCH stupider than I thought... Anyone that thinks waist size is the ONLY determining factor when it comes to obesity....can't be all that bright.

Perhaps you need to go back and read my post on this again and see if I ever made such a claim, I didn't.

Yes, I am an irreverent and catastrophically stupid individual on many subjects but I do know this:

The waist measurement or an individual’s abdominal circumference is an indicator to their body mass index and their classification as normal, overweight or obese.

More importantly it is the indicator being measured in the PT test. Whether you agree with it or not, isn’t a factor.

It is the standard being used and there are proven methods to meet it. Understanding diet, nutrition and how exercise plays a role in your waist measurement will help you meet the standard.

Understanding if you need to make lifestyle changes will help you meet the standard.

Being in denial about your body fat composition will not help you.

Complaining that the PT program is unfair will not help you.

Pullinteeth
09-04-2013, 06:43 PM
Perhaps you need to go back and read my post on this again and see if I ever made such a claim, I didn't.

Perhaps YOU should go re-read YOUR posts because you said EXACTLY that;


So you would say that someone that is 4'11" with a 36" waist is "getting into" the overweight zone at 36" to the exact same extent as someone that is 6'6" with a 36" waist?


Yep, I’m saying that.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-04-2013, 06:57 PM
Perhaps YOU should go re-read YOUR posts because you said EXACTLY that;

Stop moving the goal post with your claims of what I said and stop cherry pick parts of my posts.

Here it is again:


Yep, I’m saying that.

I don’t care how tall you are, once your waist starts going above 36 inches you are starting to get fat around your belly.

My point being the process of getting fat does not happen overnight; you have plenty of warning to turn the situation around before you get into the zone of being obese or close enough to it puts you in danger of “falling victim” to a bad measurement.
If you bust the waist measurement, there really isn’t much excuse in my opinion.

You let yourself get that way. Pay attention to your diet and you exercise routine and you can avoid the hassle.

Pullinteeth
09-04-2013, 06:59 PM
Stop moving the goal post with your claims of what I said and stop cherry pick parts of my posts.

Here it is again:

Here it is again....my question, and YOUR answer;


So you would say that someone that is 4'11" with a 36" waist is "getting into" the overweight zone at 36" to the exact same extent as someone that is 6'6" with a 36" waist?


Yep, I’m saying that.

jshiver15
09-04-2013, 07:56 PM
That is not what people are being measured on in the PT program. The sooner a person realizes what the standard is and how to meet or exceed it the better off they are going to be within the confines of the PT program.
Arguing against it on a philosophical level or the basis of a group perspective isn’t going to help you during the test.

That is one of my points.

That isn't really what I was pointing out in your quote. I was referring to your comment regarding job performance and the correlation between how we're more critiqued or criticized over what some would consider an arbitrary standard and how well we do our ACTUAL job. Being mediocre or less than mediocre at your job actually affects those around you and I think that's the point that most are trying to drive home.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-04-2013, 10:22 PM
That isn't really what I was pointing out in your quote. I was referring to your comment regarding job performance and the correlation between how we're more critiqued or criticized over what some would consider an arbitrary standard and how well we do our ACTUAL job. Being mediocre or less than mediocre at your job actually affects those around you and I think that's the point that most are trying to drive home.

Okay, I get what you are saying now. However, it doesn't diminish what I was saying about how excellence on the job is universally (amongst airmen) respected while excellence at PT isn't.

We don't tolerate mediocre behavior on one but we will on the other. That indicates a problem on an institutional-level with perception of the PT program and a lack of education on proper nutrition and exercise.

In my opinion, another reason for this is too many people make excuses or try to blame flaws in the PT test rather than addressing flaws in themselves.

Pullinteeth

The part of my post that you keep omitting clearly clarifies my point. If you want to declare victory by cherrying picking my post, you can, but it is a hollow and flimsy victory and you know it.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-05-2013, 06:47 AM
This is nothing but crap the Air Force feeds us. It's not at all about playing a part in a deployed situation. If that was the case, why do we do pushups, situps? Woman don't have to be nearly as strong as men, yet they are in the same deployed positions men are in. So the strength part plays no part. Neither does the waist. The only thing that plays a part is the cardio, and almost nobody complains about that part of the test.

Because you can get a waiver for this part...you can't waiver the waist measurement. If you could waiver the waist, then no one would be talking about this program. You can also waiver p/u and s/u, no one is talking about them either.

The main discussion is occuring over the waist measurement for the simple fact that you CAN'T avoid it like the other components. No skinny person will ever complain about the waist measurement...

jshiver15
09-05-2013, 07:41 AM
Okay, I get what you are saying now. However, it doesn't diminish what I was saying about how excellence on the job is universally (amongst airmen) respected while excellence at PT isn't.

We don't tolerate mediocre behavior on one but we will on the other. That indicates a problem on an institutional-level with perception of the PT program and a lack of education on proper nutrition and exercise.

In my opinion, another reason for this is too many people make excuses or try to blame flaws in the PT test rather than addressing flaws in themselves.



And I agree. But to a certain extent, you have to admit that it is impossible/implausible to rate everyone on the same standard. It's a lot different for someone to have great job performance than it is for someone to have great PT scores. I don't know anyone who is really good at their job despite not putting in any effort. However, I know several people who score excellent on their PT test while putting in very little, if not close-to-none, effort.

Drackore
09-05-2013, 09:43 AM
Ya'll lost me at "highly trained PTLs". Still laughing my ass off. Funniest fucking shit ever read.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-05-2013, 11:25 AM
I think the whole point is that a failed PT test..affects....EPR, special duty, cross training, retraining, quarterly boards, assignments, promotion...

but, a failed QA eval affects nothing.

That is the problem.

How could you not get marked down on your EPR for failing a QA?

That is the kiss of death from my experience, both of the career fields I was in, failing a QA eval was not taken lightly.

sandsjames
09-05-2013, 11:56 AM
How could you not get marked down on your EPR for failing a QA?

That is the kiss of death from my experience, both of the career fields I was in, failing a QA eval was not taken lightly.

You can get marked down, but you aren't going to get a referral. A failed QA and you can still get a non-firewall 5. A failed PT test and it's, at best, a referral 4.

jshiver15
09-05-2013, 02:30 PM
How could you not get marked down on your EPR for failing a QA?

That is the kiss of death from my experience, both of the career fields I was in, failing a QA eval was not taken lightly.

I've seen a guy completely fail a certification checkride and win Airman of the Quarter when there was a supposed "Firewall-5" policy on quarterly awards. So, I think it happens.

Absinthe Anecdote
09-05-2013, 07:38 PM
Happens all the time. In fact, in certain commands, going a whole year without a fail earned you a "Master" badge.

I spent 26 years in MX...never saw a referral EPR solely for a QA fail. Any markdown is the rater's discretion, nothing mandatory about it.

Sweet! How many “Master” badges were you able to rack up?

By the way, do you think Charlie the Tuna will ever meet the rigorous Star Kist standards?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/Tunacharlie.png

Absinthe Anecdote
09-05-2013, 07:44 PM
I've seen a guy completely fail a certification checkride and win Airman of the Quarter when there was a supposed "Firewall-5" policy on quarterly awards. So, I think it happens.

I'm sure it does happen.

I think we are looking at the PT program from different perspectives.

My main point is a lot of the complaints about the program are unjustified and that people have the power to meet standards if they face their weight problem honestly.

I also think there is a severe education gap about nutrition and exercise in the Air Force and American society.

OtisRNeedleman
09-05-2013, 08:40 PM
I agree. Let's extend this to things that actually matter...fail your CDC's...mandatory referral EPR and placement on the control roster. Fail a QA eval...mandatory referral EPR and placement on the control roster. Need a haircut...first offense is an Article 15. Subsequent offense is admin demotion and processing for discharge for failure to maintain standards. Late to work? Same.

I retired 2 years ago. My current employer does not give a shit what I weigh. They do give a shit if I can do my job. I laugh all the way to the bank every month with my CMSgt retired pay and my VA disability (caused in part by the USAF PT program...shot knees/arthritis).

The PT program is first, foremost, and always has been a Force Shaping tool. It has NO relation to health or what happens after retirement.

Yup. Always had to fight the weight on active duty. Ran/jogged regularly, always made my time on the run portion of aerobics.

Retired end of 98. Kept running/jogging. Fast-forward to 2011 and heart problems have come to the fore. Three doctors (two cardiologists, one internal medicine) tell me walking is better than running. Started walking. Still walking. Got the heart fixed. Must admit I've put on weight over the years but keep working on it.

BRUWIN
09-06-2013, 05:02 AM
Got one for SAC, and a SAC Journeyman badge...USAFE used to do it in the old days, but I wasn't stationed there at that time.



I had the USAFE Master Technician patch. I was actually pretty proud to wear that thing considering I was never a big fan...or winner...of awards. I was never in SAC but at Lakenheath we pretty much had a SAC mission with Victor Alert and the whole nine yards. Not to brag but If I was in SAC I surely would have gotten one...I knew my shit back in my flightline days.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-06-2013, 07:17 AM
Ya'll lost me at "highly trained PTLs". Still laughing my ass off. Funniest fucking shit ever read.

You mean to tell me that a three hour PTL course doesn't meet the standard of being "highly" trained? Think about it, the Air Force wouldn't want this program to be run half-ass because you know as well as I do how serious a PT fail can be for most folks. Surely, they would want "highly" trained personnel documenting and assessing the PT standards....wait, didn't the civilians used to do that....wait, didn't failures shoot through the roof under their assessments...wait...oh, I get it, bring back the military so leadership can say 98% pass this test...98% my ass. Just look around your unit and tell me you can't spot ONE person who passed this test that you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, should have failed, but passed somehow. 98% pass rate...LOL!

Pullinteeth
09-06-2013, 12:43 PM
Because you can get a waiver for this part...you can't waiver the waist measurement. If you could waiver the waist, then no one would be talking about this program. You can also waiver p/u and s/u, no one is talking about them either.

The main discussion is occuring over the waist measurement for the simple fact that you CAN'T avoid it like the other components. No skinny person will ever complain about the waist measurement...

100% incorrect. You CAN get an exemption for abdominal circumference (it isn't called a waiver but...).

imported_UncommonSense
09-06-2013, 06:13 PM
You mean to tell me that a three hour PTL course doesn't meet the standard of being "highly" trained? Think about it, the Air Force wouldn't want this program to be run half-ass because you know as well as I do how serious a PT fail can be for most folks. Surely, they would want "highly" trained personnel documenting and assessing the PT standards....wait, didn't the civilians used to do that....wait, didn't failures shoot through the roof under their assessments...wait...oh, I get it, bring back the military so leadership can say 98% pass this test...98% my ass. Just look around your unit and tell me you can't spot ONE person who passed this test that you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, should have failed, but passed somehow. 98% pass rate...LOL!

The USAF predicted failures would "shoot through the roof" when civilians started administering the test. The failure rate doubled from the old test but didn't come close to the "four out of 10 airmen will fail prediction." Meanwhile, the number of excellents doubled from 20% to 40%. So did the test get harder or easier?

imported_StandardsAMust
09-06-2013, 07:14 PM
100% incorrect. You CAN get an exemption for abdominal circumference (it isn't called a waiver but...).

It's very rare...only seen three in past three years and they were given to fat SNCO's that couldn't pass the test.


The USAF predicted failures would "shoot through the roof" when civilians started administering the test. The failure rate doubled from the old test but didn't come close to the "four out of 10 airmen will fail prediction." Meanwhile, the number of excellents doubled from 20% to 40%. So did the test get harder or easier?

They did shoot through the roof...by September of 2010, the failure rate was more than 20%. That rate began dropping rapidly when people started getting on profiles for the retests. If you can't run or don't want to run, go get on a profile. Same for the other components. Profiles are too easy to get.

If everyone were required to test on ALL components, and the test was administered fairly and accurately, the failure rate today would be 3 or 4 in 10...easy!

imported_StandardsAMust
09-07-2013, 12:39 PM
AFT,

It's been almost two weeks since this post...anyone willing to take me up on my offer and prove me wrong? If you're having issues with getting some FAC access, hit me up on PM and I will help you out.

Sincerely,
StandardsAMust

RetC141BFCC
09-07-2013, 02:53 PM
AFT,

It's been almost two weeks since this post...anyone willing to take me up on my offer and prove me wrong? If you're having issues with getting some FAC access, hit me up on PM and I will help you out.

Sincerely,
StandardsAMust

Standards
I know I am retired and my opinion does not mean much but I think this PT is just another way to cut Airmen. I remember getting ready to deploy for Restore Hope back when we use to tape the neck and waist for the fat boy program. At that time the orderly room used to do the tape test. You remember the orderly room the group of 702s who use to support the commander and the PEOPLE in the squadron?
Well the MSgt in charge of the deployment moved the tape up and told the A1C he passed. He said don’t worry I passed and I will lose the weight while I am gone or retire. I will not have another MSgt have to do a no notice TDY.”
When this PT sh*t started getting hardcore I remember whole support functions closed for PT. I never could understand that when my boys on the Flight Line were working 10 to 12 hours a day 5 to 6 days per week, Ok take care of the PT plus spend some time with your family but don’t forget you have another deployment coming up . In the some carrier fields I understand the need for being on top shape. I just don’t understand people like you the mission of the AF is to Fly and Fight.
If PT is so important how about we have enough airman assigned to due PT on duty time and also due the mission. I would love to know what job you currently due in the AF and what your background is.

Jim

Capt Alfredo
09-07-2013, 05:49 PM
I don't think any base Public Affairs office would allow outsiders/media to observe the administration of the fitness assessment. We can't have the emperor showing off his new clothes, after all. Probably would cite some sort of privacy rationalization.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-07-2013, 07:23 PM
Standards
I know I am retired and my opinion does not mean much but I think this PT is just another way to cut Airmen. I remember getting ready to deploy for Restore Hope back when we use to tape the neck and waist for the fat boy program. At that time the orderly room used to do the tape test. You remember the orderly room the group of 702s who use to support the commander and the PEOPLE in the squadron?
Well the MSgt in charge of the deployment moved the tape up and told the A1C he passed. He said don’t worry I passed and I will lose the weight while I am gone or retire. I will not have another MSgt have to do a no notice TDY.”
When this PT sh*t started getting hardcore I remember whole support functions closed for PT. I never could understand that when my boys on the Flight Line were working 10 to 12 hours a day 5 to 6 days per week, Ok take care of the PT plus spend some time with your family but don’t forget you have another deployment coming up . In the some carrier fields I understand the need for being on top shape. I just don’t understand people like you the mission of the AF is to Fly and Fight.
If PT is so important how about we have enough airman assigned to due PT on duty time and also due the mission. I would love to know what job you currently due in the AF and what your background is.

Jim

Aircraft Maintenance. My job, as with all who serve, is to uphold the standards. If you were in today, you see a crap load of integrity issues with this program. 60% of my maintainers score excellents on their tests while working long hours. I'm tired of hearing excuses like yours. Lazy people are going to be lazy and if the Air Force wanted fitness to be a force shaping tool, we'd have far more than just 76 people failing that waist measurement and getting separated. This program IS NOT a force shaping tool. If it was, it's not very effective.

imported_StandardsAMust
09-07-2013, 07:26 PM
I don't think any base Public Affairs office would allow outsiders/media to observe the administration of the fitness assessment. We can't have the emperor showing off his new clothes, after all. Probably would cite some sort of privacy rationalization.

Why not? The AFT has direct access to the people at AFPC who provide them inaccurate data. I'm sure they'd have no problem showcasing our wonderful administration process of the test for all to see. Only then would real changes take affect.

RetC141BFCC
09-07-2013, 08:59 PM
Aircraft Maintenance. My job, as with all who serve, is to uphold the standards. If you were in today, you see a crap load of integrity issues with this program. 60% of my maintainers score excellents on their tests while working long hours. I'm tired of hearing excuses like yours. Lazy people are going to be lazy and if the Air Force wanted fitness to be a force shaping tool, we'd have far more than just 76 people failing that waist measurement and getting separated. This program IS NOT a force shaping tool. If it was, it's not very effective.

I guess I don’t know much about the integrity issue never had that problem with the young troops I worked with and who worked for me. I know that when I was a young Airman and Buck Sgt what my NCOs said was gospel. I do know that when I screwed up I told my boss and he took care of it. There is a difference between a mistake and a crime. Well I never had time to go to classes while deployed. I remember the 80’s and 90’s deploying to so many shit holes it got old. I really enjoyed working my jobs and other aircraft mx jobs thru cut training.
I am not just talking about the waist issue I am talking about the whole PT issue. From what I read on these boards it does not matter how good you do your job as long as you look good pass your PT test , volunteer and take a few classes you’re a 5 EPR. I think that sucks. Your primary job should come first. If you are going to make such a big deal of PT give some duty time to do it.
Not after a 12 hour shift. You must have some great maintained jets if your guys can go to school while deployed. Every single deployment I went on was 12 hour shifts. I did get lucky on a few of them and get two days off a week. I would say that 90 percent of my deployments were 12 hour shift 6 days on and one day off.
You and I know there are two separate Air Force maintenance career paths. I have a friend of mine here where I work who spent 22 years in the AF as a jet engine mechanic retiring as a MSgt. Thru no fault of his own he never deployed. He was assigned to the back shop tear down and build up section. In my 24 years in I knew many people who never deployed. So not all jobs in Aircraft MX are the same.
You and I are never going to agree so let’s agree to disagree. I have no knowledge of what the current force is doing now and the PC bullshit they have to put up with. But you have to see my point as far as standards go why PT is the end all and be all? I still will never agree with allowing Airman to go to school without finishing there upgrade training.
I joined the AF as a skinny 17 year old punk from NY who thought he knew it all and could scam his way thru the AF. It took one of the biggest meanest Vietnam Veteran Chief about 15 minutes to straighten my young ass out. I have no complaints I loved the AF it got me where I am today. I am a lead mechanic for an Airline and the VP of my local lodge a 1100 man/woman union. And I owe it all to the USAF. I might have drunk the kool aid when I was in but I think it was a different kool Aid then what you are drinking.
To the rest of you sorry for my rant and thanks for what you do every day home station or deployed

Pullinteeth
09-08-2013, 01:58 PM
It's very rare...only seen three in past three years and they were given to fat SNCO's that couldn't pass the test.

You don't know more than three chicks that have gotten knocked up in the last three years? That is the most common reason for an exemption for AC. There are others but being preggers is the most common...

imported_StandardsAMust
09-08-2013, 02:23 PM
You don't know more than three chicks that have gotten knocked up in the last three years? That is the most common reason for an exemption for AC. There are others but being preggers is the most common...

I'm referring to the MALE population.

Pullinteeth
09-08-2013, 03:21 PM
I'm referring to the MALE population.

Yet you made absolutely no indication to that effect....

Rainmaker
09-08-2013, 03:43 PM
The issue is how you measure someone who is large and in charge. Like I said before, those people who you CAN'T find the hip bone because they are that big. I could care less about measuring people 35" or less...the problem lies measuring those that are 40" around or females that are 36" around. There are many big women coming back to the unit with 30" waist measurements but have BMIs in the 30's...not adding up. What are they wrapping the tape around? Their thighs?

whenever Rainmaker measures up a fattie at the club he remember that old song to help him find the spot..... Thighbone connected to the Hipbone. Hipbone connected to the backbone.....

imported_CLSE
09-23-2013, 07:58 PM
I would say me and the NIH feel that way. At 40 inches your risk of obesity related disease dramatically increases but you are already getting into the overweight zone at 36 inches for all heights.

I get your point about accurate measurements and agree.

My point is if a person starts to enter the overweight zone they need to take charge of their health and make changes to their personal diet and exercise regimen.

Why should any individual want to let themself drift into the margin of error or even the overweight zone?

Let me ask, how many other standards should a person be happy with just squeezing by with a 1/4 of an inch to spare?

Most of the forum members here routinely express a high degree of admiration for people who excel at their primary duty and disdain for those who are mediocre. Why should physical fitness be any different?

My point is that 40 inches is generous because you are obese at that point.

The Air Force is being generous not taking punitative measures for the overweight zones.

There's a guy in my Guard unit who has a 42 inch waist - he was chubby, but I can guarantee that he'd be lucky to get below 40 and he'd never see 36, even if he starved himself.

What the NIH puts out are GUIDELINES, not standards. The NIH guidelines are there to tell a doctor when to start looking more closely at a person.

The doctor may look more closely and find something wrong, but the doctor may also look more closely and find that the individual is just on the outer edge of the curve and perfectly fine.

As far as relying on the Air Force standards, I've said it here plenty of times before and I'll say it plenty of times in the future: The Air Force standards do not match reality.

The Japanese government has established a waistline standard (yes, a standard) for its citizens that is 6" less than the standard established by the NIH and that standard is based on many years of research by the medical community.

Yet, the Air Force continues to say that waist circumference is not affected by anything, including ethinicity.

imported_CLSE
09-23-2013, 08:15 PM
Aircraft Maintenance. My job, as with all who serve, is to uphold the standards. If you were in today, you see a crap load of integrity issues with this program. 60% of my maintainers score excellents on their tests while working long hours. I'm tired of hearing excuses like yours. Lazy people are going to be lazy and if the Air Force wanted fitness to be a force shaping tool, we'd have far more than just 76 people failing that waist measurement and getting separated. This program IS NOT a force shaping tool. If it was, it's not very effective.


You keep talking about people who failed the waist measurement and the CSAF only talked about them in his last letter.

How many people lose points on the waist measurement despite being perfectly healthy because the Air Force made up the standard they did?

Maybe you already forgot all the diversity training the Air Force made us take - everybody isn't the same. Basic body build - how tall you are, how big your body structure is - is determined by genetics, not by what you eat or how much you exercise.

So, somebody who's 5'5" and 150lbs soaking wet with a 32" waist gets an advantage on the test over somebody who's 6'3" and 230lbs with a 38" waist just because of genetics.

Don't see the glaring problem there?

Absinthe Anecdote
09-26-2013, 08:51 PM
There's a guy in my Guard unit who has a 42 inch waist - he was chubby, but I can guarantee that he'd be lucky to get below 40 and he'd never see 36, even if he starved himself.

What the NIH puts out are GUIDELINES, not standards. The NIH guidelines are there to tell a doctor when to start looking more closely at a person.

The doctor may look more closely and find something wrong, but the doctor may also look more closely and find that the individual is just on the outer edge of the curve and perfectly fine.

As far as relying on the Air Force standards, I've said it here plenty of times before and I'll say it plenty of times in the future: The Air Force standards do not match reality.

The Japanese government has established a waistline standard (yes, a standard) for its citizens that is 6" less than the standard established by the NIH and that standard is based on many years of research by the medical community.

Yet, the Air Force continues to say that waist circumference is not affected by anything, including ethinicity.

You call him chubby but the clinical term is obese for a person with a 42 inch waist.

Why do you think it is impossible for him to trim his waist below a 36? It will take a major lifestyle change but it can be done as long as the effort is put into it.

Judging by your last few posts on this topic I have to say that your view of reality is the one that is screwed up and not the Air Force's.

It seems you are looking to be coddled and told that it is okay to be overweight, it isn't.