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View Full Version : Destroyer CMC Sacked After Grabbing Sailor By Uniform



BURAWSKI
08-26-2013, 08:48 PM
http://www.navytimes.com/article/20130826/NEWS/308260039/Destroyer-CMC-sacked-after-grabbing-sailor-by-uniform

Ok, I wish there was more publicized about this. It obviously is not the whole story. Seems kind of misleading though. The way this story is publicized, without more of the facts implies that he just grabbed his uniform and it puts all of the CPO Community in a rock and hard place (as if there weren't enough problems with the recent suspension of CPO Orientation Training). There is no way I can see getting a CO's Mast out of just grabbing a Sailor's uniform, unless maybe he winded up attempting to choke him/her. Just reading the article sounds to me like he grabbed the uniform to emphasize a point (maybe the Sailor was a problem with other issues as well). I wonder if the "victim" viewed this grabbing of the uniform as an assault? Or maybe got offended for being manhandled. Based on the article and little other information it does sound like a BS move on the part of the Navy to do this. Give me a break. Although it sounds PC and petty, I still have to ask if it couldn't have been handled differently. Or was this just another case of someone getting their feelings hurt? There are other administrative measures, but yet again, maybe those were already used up in this case. Where was the rest of the CPO Mess and Commissioned Officers if there were other incidents leading up to this one? Still it is sad to see this. I mean it isn't like he was fraternizing or doing something really egregious; kind of seems like open season on CMC's these days.

Mr. Squid
08-27-2013, 02:47 AM
unless maybe he winded up attempting to choke him/herMaybe, maybe not. Maybe the skipper or someone in the command was itching for an excuse to sack him? Maybe it's just a perfect storm of wrong place & time and bad luck? I got a hunch that said "grab" entailed something more physically threatening than the simple act of grabbing. Yes I know the article doesn't state one way or the other, as no article in the history of the world ever answered every question ever conceived by all readers, but I'll bet a nickel that that's the case here.

Rusty Jones
08-30-2013, 10:47 AM
Based on the minimal information provided here, you have to ask yourself: have you ever grabbed a Sailor by the uniform? Would you? And if you did, would you do so without expecting any ramifications?

I know we're a generation of people who think everyone's a pussy because they don't literally get their asses kicked all over the place like they did in the mythological "good ol' days," but even then... you have to put that aside and think before you act. Unfortunately, that's not what happened here.

CaliMC
08-30-2013, 10:32 PM
Irrespective of how it "was" in the past, anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for the past 10-15 years should know that, except in self-defense, 99.9 percent of the time, if you put your hands on someone you're wrong and will suffer the consequences. This CMC (don't know him, assume he was a good guy) should have known better, and, because of what HE DID (not Political Correctness, generational wussification, whatever), he's now looking for a job. You can't compare today's Sailors to those of 30 years ago any more than those of us who enlisted in the 70's or 80's could compare our situation to what was going on in the WWII era. Times change, if you can't keep up, take notes.

BURAWSKI
09-01-2013, 05:22 PM
Double post.

BURAWSKI
09-01-2013, 05:26 PM
I agree that this CMC should not have touched the Sailor's uniform. Here's what irks me about this though. This article doesn't say he assaulted the Sailor; it says he grabbed the uniform with the implication that an assault occurred. Simply touching (or grabbing) an individual's uniform does not, in my book, constitute assault. You want to talk about the meltdown of today's Navy, then let's have that discussion. And this isn't about taking a Sailor out to the fanroom and kicking his ass. Was he punched? Was he threatened in any way? Or was it just as the article stated: He grabbed the uniform, perhaps to point out a discrepancy or to emphasize a shortcoming. The Sailor may have filed a formal complaint alleging assault or a witness saw it and reported it. Either way, touching a uniform is poor judgment but is not assault, at least not in the legal definition. Ok, and finally, why couldn't this have been handled in house? This reminds me of an old Clint Eastwood western movie, "Hang 'em High!" -- The guy made a mistake but he shouldn't be crucified for it. I'm sure there was no malfeasance intended. What ever happened to giving people a chance to redeem themselves? This zero tolerance for making mistakes, no matter what they are, is hurting the Navy. This should have been handled between the CMC and the CO had they had really open lines of communication between them. That is what I see as the problem. B. M. BURAWSKI Chief Yeoman, U.S. Navy (Ret.)

Rusty Jones
09-01-2013, 08:26 PM
So if you were walking around downtown and saw a cop... and you grabbed him by the uniform, do you really think that there are circumstances where you cannot be charged for assaulting a police officer?

If not, then I see don't see any justification for dropping any assault charges that this CMDCM now has.

It probably couldn't be handled at the command level because of the level of punishment involved. A detachment for cause has to be approved by BUPERS.

Stalwart
09-05-2013, 10:16 AM
Irrespective of how it "was" in the past, anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for the past 10-15 years should know that, except in self-defense, 99.9 percent of the time, if you put your hands on someone you're wrong and will suffer the consequences. This CMC (don't know him, assume he was a good guy) should have known better, and, because of what HE DID (not Political Correctness, generational wussification, whatever), he's now looking for a job. You can't compare today's Sailors to those of 30 years ago any more than those of us who enlisted in the 70's or 80's could compare our situation to what was going on in the WWII era. Times change, if you can't keep up, take notes.

Spot on.

Stalwart
09-05-2013, 10:27 AM
Ok, and finally, why couldn't this have been handled in house?

As I read it and have asked around, it was handled ‘in house’ at Captain's Mast; part of the adjudication of the Mast was the Captain did not want this Master Chief as his CMC.

The Navy (different from the other services) has a policy of publically announcing the relief of CO's, XO's and Senior Enlisted; they even make a point of sending notices to Congress via the Senate & House liaisons.

Stalwart
09-05-2013, 10:34 AM
A detachment for cause has to be approved by BUPERS.

True enough, but if the CO wants you off the ship you could very well be gone while BUPERS approves it. I have seen where personnel were sent TAD to DESRON or somewhere (another ship in the CSG/ESG if we were deployed) pending BUPERS final approval of a detachment, in particular there were a few who were not allowed to cross the brow while TAD: LCDR fired as a weapons officer, LT fired as the operations officer, a couple of Chiefs in various jobs.

BURAWSKI
09-05-2013, 02:01 PM
As I read it and have asked around, it was handled ‘in house’ at Captain's Mast; part of the adjudication of the Mast was the Captain did not want this Master Chief as his CMC.

The Navy (different from the other services) has a policy of publically announcing the relief of CO's, XO's and Senior Enlisted; they even make a point of sending notices to Congress via the Senate & House liaisons.

I understand your point of view. However, I still stand by my opinion. And yes, you are right. It is a different Navy than the one I served in.


B. M. BURAWSKI
Chief Yeoman, U.S. Navy (Ret.)

Stalwart
09-05-2013, 03:27 PM
I understand your point of view. However, I still stand by my opinion. And yes, you are right. It is a different Navy than the one I served in.

And I do understand yours as well, but if the CO decided he wanted him gone (which is the prerogative of a CO) though, there is really no way to quietly do that.

I completely agree that the military has changed from when you joined just as the Marines has changed from when I joined in 1990 or some of the changes in the Navy since 2003 when I transferred. Some things get better, some things I would like to see not change, but it is what it is.

BURAWSKI
09-07-2013, 11:53 PM
The article does not give full details of what happened, to be sure.

You are giving the benefit of doubt the Master Chief.

I'm giving it to the accuser and the commander. I don't believe he would have been removed from his position for merely touching a uniform to point out a discrepancy, that is silly.

I guess I'm picturing him grabbing this guy by the front of the shirt and getting in his face. I could be wrong...but have enough faith in the commanding officer that the guy wasn't fired for something silly.

That's the problem with these articles -- it never gives a complete picture of what transpired but is reported as it has. Hard to give the benefit of the doubt to either the CMC or the Commander and the accuser. It's probably better not to report anything at all rather than publish half-truths which either give a distorted or wrong picture of the actual truth. My comments were based on the facts as they were reported in the article. Unfortunately this situation can't be judged at face value since a lot of details are left out.

Rusty Jones
09-08-2013, 02:38 AM
I really can't say that we do not have enough information to judge whether or not he was in the wrong. The one part we do know, is that this CMDCM grabbed a junior Sailor by the uniform.

I cannot think of one situational context in which this is acceptable. Not one.

Pullinteeth
09-08-2013, 03:24 PM
I really can't say that we do not have enough information to judge whether or not he was in the wrong. The one part we do know, is that this CMDCM grabbed a junior Sailor by the uniform.

I cannot think of one situational context in which this is acceptable. Not one.

According to some, if he wasn't cleanshaven, his supervision could have and should have forcibly shaved him....

BURAWSKI
09-08-2013, 03:42 PM
I really can't say that we do not have enough information to judge whether or not he was in the wrong. The one part we do know, is that this CMDCM grabbed a junior Sailor by the uniform.

I cannot think of one situational context in which this is acceptable. Not one.

One scenario I can think of is if the CMC pointed out the discrepancy to the Sailor and ignores the CMC and walks away from him without acknowledging him. Hey, mistakes happen but crucifying people for them is a fact of life in the zero tolerance Navy. Of course I don't know if this scenario was what happened but it is a possibility. Too bad the article doesn't give more information.

Pullinteeth
09-08-2013, 03:54 PM
One scenario I can think of is if the CMC pointed out the discrepancy to the Sailor and ignores the CMC and walks away from him without acknowledging him. Hey, mistakes happen but crucifying people for them is a fact of life in the zero tolerance Navy. Of course I don't know if this scenario was what happened but it is a possibility. Too bad the article doesn't give more information.

So in that senario, you would say the CMDCM would be justified in grabbing the sailor by his uniform?

DocBones
09-08-2013, 11:33 PM
Well, back in the day, they used to just tie up anyone that looked or acted badly. Also they did that when King Neptune was mad at them. Then they would keelhaul the dude. Do you know how much I have spent on barnacle ripped clothing? You kids just don't know how good you have it nowadays!

Furthermore, when we... Ouch! Them hypos for thorazine injections haven't improved, though! I have to go now. I am getting very sleeeeepy...

Pullinteeth
09-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Well, back in the day, they used to just tie up anyone that looked or acted badly. Also they did that when King Neptune was mad at them. Then they would keelhaul the dude. Do you know how much I have spent on barnacle ripped clothing? You kids just don't know how good you have it nowadays!

Furthermore, when we... Ouch! Them hypos for thorazine injections haven't improved, though! I have to go now. I am getting very sleeeeepy...

Really? Cause according to the USN, they have never keelhauled anyone....

DocBones
09-09-2013, 01:41 PM
According to the Marines, no one was ever beat down in bootcamp. Hmmm, I was there as a DI and I must say that no one was ever beaten. However, a lot of 'uniform adjustments were made.

Lighten up, friend! Almost all of my posts are badly formatted by my brain posts!

Rusty Jones
09-09-2013, 03:38 PM
Really? Cause according to the USN, they have never keelhauled anyone....


I believe it. I think we have overromanticized views on how the military used to be "in the old days."

From my readings, it never was legal in the US military to assault another military member. EVER.

However, it was more tolerated and swept under the rug during the Vietnam Era in order to subdue the draftees who couldn't otherwise be subordinated.

BURAWSKI
09-09-2013, 03:54 PM
I believe it. I think we have overromanticized views on how the military used to be "in the old days."

From my readings, it never was legal in the US military to assault another military member. EVER.

However, it was more tolerated and swept under the rug during the Vietnam Era in order to subdue the draftees who couldn't otherwise be subordinated.

Ahh yes. The term "fragging" comes to my mind. There were instances were friendly fire was actually intentionally used to assassinate some officers. I'm not sure how many cases that involved and perhaps we'll never know. In the movie "Platoon" there was an example of this.

job1037
09-09-2013, 05:27 PM
Don't know what your readings are, but in the old, old navy, we adopted many Royal Navy rules and customs including flogging

Rusty Jones
09-09-2013, 05:34 PM
Don't know what your readings are, but in the old, old navy, we adopted many Royal Navy rules and customs including flogging

Flogging was formal punishment, i.e., not the same thing as an LPO slapping a Seaman in the face for being late to quarters. There was no "wall to wall counseling." At least not legally.

It was also used as punishment outside of the military. I'm from Delaware; and we still have a whipping post there. The last time it was used was the 1950's, and its use wasn't outlawed until the 1970's.

Pullinteeth
09-09-2013, 07:20 PM
Flogging was formal punishment, i.e., not the same thing as an LPO slapping a Seaman in the face for being late to quarters. There was no "wall to wall counseling." At least not legally.

It was also used as punishment outside of the military. I'm from Delaware; and we still have a whipping post there. The last time it was used was the 1950's, and its use wasn't outlawed until the 1970's.

Navy abolished flogging 1850.

BURAWSKI
09-10-2013, 01:56 AM
I think the pendulum is swinging in the other direction. Heaven forbid if a CPO or CMC should raise their voice and offend someone! After all we don't want to traumatize, insult, upset or offend Sailors.

Rusty Jones
09-10-2013, 05:36 AM
I think the pendulum is swinging in the other direction. Heaven forbid if a CPO or CMC should raise their voice and offend someone! After all we don't want to traumatize, insult, upset or offend Sailors.

You retired in 2005, so I'm not sure if you're aware of what the CPO Mess has become. Basically, it's a place that non-rates run to when they want an order that they dont like that was given to them by a PO countermanded.