PDA

View Full Version : Time to close loopholes with AF Fitness Program



imported_StandardsAMust
08-23-2013, 02:47 PM
Here's what CMSAF and CSAF should consider to fix the loopholes in our Fitness program. These suggestions would GUARANTEE a fit force.

I propose the following with an effective date of 1 March 2014:

1. Eliminate the Walk Test
2. Eliminate the A/C Measurement
3. Eliminate the component minimums
4. Elminate the block from the EPR/OPR
5. Eliminate the Excellent/Satisfactory/Unsatisfactory categories
6. Eliminate the "currency" criteria of testing times
7. Eliminate profile testing (no exempted components)
8. Keep the Run, P/U and S/U and the overall score from 0-100.
9. Add BMI in place of A/C Measurement (<25 = 20 pts, 26 = 17.6, 27 = 17, 28 = 16.4, 29 = 15.8, 30 = 15.1, 31 = 14.4, 32 =13.5, 33 = 12.6, etc.) All decimals are dropped...26.8 BMI = 26.
10. Add Fitness score to WAPS (Average of last 5 PT Tests, tests with prior exemptions do not count)
11. Add new currency rule to state: All members must test, anytime they choose, within 6 months of promotion eligibility PECD date or closeout of EPR/OPR
12. Members testing for WAPS must take printout of fitness RIP to testing center with letter of validation from Unit CC verifying average PT score
13. Any member that has not completed a full PT test within the window assigned is ineligible for promotion testing/eligibility

There. System is fixed. No more failures...no more admin actions...no more demotions...no more discharges...just a force focussed on getting fit, the right way.

imnohero
08-23-2013, 02:56 PM
Oh my! It would work, if big blue actually cared about fitness instead of how we look. Small waist = healthy and fit (and "pretty" in uniform), the rest they could give a crap about.

Pullinteeth
08-23-2013, 04:48 PM
Here's what CMSAF and CSAF should consider to fix the loopholes in our Fitness program. These suggestions would GUARANTEE a fit force.

I propose the following with an effective date of 1 March 2014:

1. Eliminate the Walk Test
2. Eliminate the A/C Measurement
3. Eliminate the component minimums
4. Elminate the block from the EPR/OPR
5. Eliminate the Excellent/Satisfactory/Unsatisfactory categories
6. Eliminate the "currency" criteria of testing times
7. Eliminate profile testing (no exempted components)
8. Keep the Run, P/U and S/U and the overall score from 0-100.
9. Add BMI in place of A/C Measurement (<25 = 20 pts, 26 = 17.6, 27 = 17, 28 = 16.4, 29 = 15.8, 30 = 15.1, 31 = 14.4, 32 =13.5, 33 = 12.6, etc.) All decimals are dropped...26.8 BMI = 26.
10. Add Fitness score to WAPS (Average of last 5 PT Tests, tests with prior exemptions do not count)
11. Add new currency rule to state: All members must test, anytime they choose, within 6 months of promotion eligibility PECD date or closeout of EPR/OPR
12. Members testing for WAPS must take printout of fitness RIP to testing center with letter of validation from Unit CC verifying average PT score
13. Any member that has not completed a full PT test within the window assigned is ineligible for promotion testing/eligibility
There. System is fixed. No more failures...no more admin actions...no more demotions...no more discharges...just a force focussed on getting fit, the right way.

You think there are fatties in the ANG/AFR NOW? Wait until they don't have to test for 2 years + at a time...

You would REALLY have to get rid of the bodybuilders then because BMI is strictly ht/wt. You could have less than 8% body fat and be declared obese by BMI yet people that ARE actually fat would pass... YEP GREAT idea.

So if you say were shot (in combat) performing a heroic act and it took you more than 6 months to rehab, you would be ineligible to be promoted?

Yep, you solved all the problems...of the current test and created new problems. :frusty

Class5Kayaker
08-23-2013, 05:36 PM
SAM,

My thoughts on your list in red. Some good ideas, some bad IMO. And just so you know, I've never been on a profile except immediately after breaking 3 ribs (I had my profile removed just before I was due to test 3 months later, including doing painful situps against the advice of my doc just because I didn't want the stigma associated with profiles from people like you), and I've always passed the test, I've just seen situations where great guys got their careers killed by the current program so I have some issues with it.


Here's what CMSAF and CSAF should consider to fix the loopholes in our Fitness program. These suggestions would GUARANTEE a fit force.

I propose the following with an effective date of 1 March 2014:

1. Eliminate the Walk Test -- NOPE, some people "get broke" after being in for a while. You gonna kick out a PJ or TACP who has to do the walk test because he broke his back during a freefall mission? That's like flipping him the finger. Let him stay in as an instructor or retrain into an admin career field so he can retire and collect his MUCH DESERVED benefits (probably more deserved than most of us)
2. Eliminate the A/C Measurement -- YEP, unless you incorporate height into the equation. No one with common sense thinks a 75" tall guy with a 39" waist is just as obese as a 66" dude with a 39" waist
3. Eliminate the component minimums -- YEP. If someone's weak in one area, let them make it up in another
4. Elminate the block from the EPR/OPR -- Agreed, and I think they're looking at implimenting this. Or keep it, but don't make it a referral report. It's just another factor to consider for the promo boards
5. Eliminate the Excellent/Satisfactory/Unsatisfactory categories -- I don't have an issue with the categories. I actually think they encourage folks to try harder. At least for me, knowing if I get above a 90 means I don't test for a year is a motivator to not just go out there and not put forth any effort and still score in the low 80's
6. Eliminate the "currency" criteria of testing times -- Doesn't this conflict with your #11 idea?
7. Eliminate profile testing (no exempted components) -- Disagree. If someone has a sprained wrist, they should still test on the run & situps
8. Keep the Run, P/U and S/U and the overall score from 0-100. -- Agreed.
9. Add BMI in place of A/C Measurement (<25 = 20 pts, 26 = 17.6, 27 = 17, 28 = 16.4, 29 = 15.8, 30 = 15.1, 31 = 14.4, 32 =13.5, 33 = 12.6, etc.) All decimals are dropped...26.8 BMI = 26. -- TOTALLY Disagree. See pic below for why.
10. Add Fitness score to WAPS (Average of last 5 PT Tests, tests with prior exemptions do not count) -- Naw....we're not the Army or Marines
11. Add new currency rule to state: All members must test, anytime they choose, within 6 months of promotion eligibility PECD date or closeout of EPR/OPR -- Doesn't this conflict with your #6 idea?
12. Members testing for WAPS must take printout of fitness RIP to testing center with letter of validation from Unit CC verifying average PT score -- I'm assuming this is tied to #10, which I disagree with.
13. Any member that has not completed a full PT test within the window assigned is ineligible for promotion testing/eligibility -- DISAGREE. See #1 above for he same logic behind why I disagree

There. System is fixed. No more failures...no more admin actions...no more demotions...no more discharges...just a force focussed on getting fit, the right way.

Follow-up on my #9 comment. BMI is totally bogus! It's based on a formula that a MATHEMETICIAN came up with back in the 1800s and has been debunked by countless fitness experts and doctors alike. Just google it. Here's an example of someone considered obese by BMI calculations:

Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. 6'5", 260lbs = 30.8 BMI = Obese.....yet he only has 7% boy fat (Army body fat standard for over 40+ years old is 26%....had to use Army since there are none for AF)

http://www.wwe.com/f/styles/superstar_bio/public/talent/bio/2013/01/the_rock_bio_20130107.png

And don't say "It's rare" because I could come up with examples all day long (to include tons of active duty military), I'm just using him since everyone knows who he is. And even if it's only a few....is it fair to ruin careers over it? BMI is no better (if not worse) than the waist tape measurement.

If you want to measure physical appearance, break out the calipers or a dunk tank. Oh yeah, don't let some A1C Supply troop who just got OJT yesterday be the person taping us either. The inconsistencies in measurements between the FACs is ridiculous.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-24-2013, 05:33 AM
I have a BMI problem for you. I have a 32 inch waist. I am 5'10 and weight 180. According to BMI i am overweight. If we went to BMI only, i would auto fail every PT test even though I have 8%body fat.

I guess you didn't read my post. According to my BMI chart, you'd get the max points. How is this not fair to you? 25 BMI = 20 Pts. See above.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-24-2013, 07:09 AM
SAM,

My thoughts on your list in red. Some good ideas, some bad IMO. And just so you know, I've never been on a profile except immediately after breaking 3 ribs (I had my profile removed just before I was due to test 3 months later, including doing painful situps against the advice of my doc just because I didn't want the stigma associated with profiles from people like you), and I've always passed the test, I've just seen situations where great guys got their careers killed by the current program so I have some issues with it.

Follow-up on my #9 comment. BMI is totally bogus! It's based on a formula that a MATHEMETICIAN came up with back in the 1800s and has been debunked by countless fitness experts and doctors alike. Just google it. Here's an example of someone considered obese by BMI calculations:

Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. 6'5", 260lbs = 30.8 BMI = Obese.....yet he only has 7% boy fat (Army body fat standard for over 40+ years old is 26%....had to use Army since there are none for AF)

http://www.wwe.com/f/styles/superstar_bio/public/talent/bio/2013/01/the_rock_bio_20130107.png

And don't say "It's rare" because I could come up with examples all day long (to include tons of active duty military), I'm just using him since everyone knows who he is. And even if it's only a few....is it fair to ruin careers over it? BMI is no better (if not worse) than the waist tape measurement.

If you want to measure physical appearance, break out the calipers or a dunk tank. Oh yeah, don't let some A1C Supply troop who just got OJT yesterday be the person taping us either. The inconsistencies in measurements between the FACs is ridiculous.

You make some good points, but allow me to elaborate on why I recommend these changes:

1. Eliminate the Walk Test
If the walk test is a valid component of cardio fitness, then make that the standard and eliminate the run. Since that will not happen, eliminate the walk and force everyone to run. I still ask, "what does the walk test validate?" Everyone automatically assumes they should pass it. If you fail the walk test, there is always an excuse. Just get rid of it or make it the only option for everyone.

2. Eliminate the A/C Measurement
PTLs can't get this right. They tape too high, too low or pull the tape too snug. Measurements are all over the place. The BMI is simple and a monkey couldn't get that wrong.

3. Eliminate the component minimums
Who cares how many pushups or situps or how fast someone can run or wants to run. Let people decide what they want to do based on the score charts.

4. Elminate the block from the EPR/OPR
Who cares what they score anymore. The only thing needed now is to ensure they actually take the test.

5. Eliminate the Excellent/Satisfactory/Unsatisfactory categories
No longer needed. People will be motivated to score whatever they want since it would be part of their promotion score. If Airman Snuffy wants a 0, let him get the 0, if TSgt Brutus wants a 100, let him get the 100. Who cares anymore. We don't care what they score on the PFE or SKT test, why should we care here?

6. Eliminate the "currency" criteria of testing times
This means that if someone scores a 73, they don't have to retest in 90 days. This means if someone scores an 88, they don't have to retest in 6 months.

7. Eliminate profile testing (no exempted components)
This keeps the program valid. Eliminates waist only testing allowing for someone to score 100's everytime. Since you must take the full test for promotion eligibility, Airmen will ensure their "medical" needs are tended to and will most likely strive to fix thier issues as soon as possible. Very few people have conditions lasting longer than a year and if they do, then let the DAWG and MEB process work.

8. Keep the Run, P/U and S/U and the overall score from 0-100.
I would advocate eliminating the p/u and s/u because it's useless since most PTLs count any rep anyone does now. But, DoD mandates some form of physical condition on the test...so, it's the best we have. I am not a fan of adding Pullups to the test. Let's be honest, this PT test isn't about strength...it's about discipline.

9. Add BMI in place of A/C Measurement (<25 = 20 pts, 26 = 17.6, 27 = 17, 28 = 16.4, 29 = 15.8, 30 = 15.1, 31 = 14.4, 32 =13.5, 33 = 12.6, etc.) All decimals are dropped...26.8 BMI = 26.
Gen Welsh said it himself, the DoD requires a Body Fat program. This keeps the program valid. Look closely...regardless of your opinion on BMI, the score layout above is very generous for those who are morbidly obese. Everyone can control their weight and BMI takes Height into consideration. Look again...a 33 BMI still gets you 12.6 points and that's a big person. Let's be honest...your typical fat AF person is not built like the Rock.

10. Add Fitness score to WAPS (Average of last 5 PT Tests, tests with prior exemptions do not count)
This puts everything on the member. This will require people to take the program seriously if they want to promote. Those that don't want to promote can sit around and get fat. I don't care.

11. Add new currency rule to state: All members must test, anytime they choose, within 6 months of promotion eligibility PECD date or closeout of EPR/OPR
This ensures that members take the test. Since WAPS looks at your last 5 tests, this helps keep people in a healthy rotation and eliminates confusion on when they need to test. Don't test? no problem...don't promote.

12. Members testing for WAPS must take printout of fitness RIP to testing center with letter of validation from Unit CC verifying average PT score
This ensures that your PT score is legit and unit verified. Prevents false reports like fudged AFFMS printouts. That's the same as those who body wrap to get a better waist measurement.

13. Any member that has not completed a full PT test within the window assigned is ineligible for promotion testing/eligibility
When promotion is on the line, people take it seriously. People want to WAPS test, now they will want to PT test.

Officers are failing now and nothing is really being done to them. I know commanders that have failed the test...only some make the news, most are swept under the rug. The officer promotion system is different but they should be required to have a passing full test before any of them are promoted too.

CJSmith
08-24-2013, 07:17 AM
I was meh until #13. Seriously? So if a member breaks their leg and cannot run, they cannot WAPS test? What if it was a work related injury just before the WAPS test and there is no time for rehabilitation? You have flawed logic my friend.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-24-2013, 09:01 AM
I was meh until #13. Seriously? So if a member breaks their leg and cannot run, they cannot WAPS test? What if it was a work related injury just before the WAPS test and there is no time for rehabilitation? You have flawed logic my friend.

CJ,

The member can test anytime they wish in the 6 month time frame. It would be advised that people test early in the period. In the rare cirmcumstances that someone would break their leg, roll their ankle, or whatever, then the doctor would evaluate them and if injury is confirmed, put them on a profile for a specified period of time. If this were to occur then a couple of things would happen...EPR/OPR would be extended due to injury based on doctor recommendation and if WAPS is a concern, member would then test out-of-cycle once injury is healed and 42 days has elapsed. Injuries exceeding one year would then be DAWG and/or MEB reviewed for further options.

CJSmith
08-24-2013, 11:04 AM
CJ,

The member can test anytime they wish in the 6 month time frame. It would be advised that people test early in the period. In the rare cirmcumstances that someone would break their leg, roll their ankle, or whatever, then the doctor would evaluate them and if injury is confirmed, put them on a profile for a specified period of time. If this were to occur then a couple of things would happen...EPR/OPR would be extended due to injury based on doctor recommendation and if WAPS is a concern, member would then test out-of-cycle once injury is healed and 42 days has elapsed. Injuries exceeding one year would then be DAWG and/or MEB reviewed for further options.

Ahh, this would be rule 13.1 then. You've elaborated on it much more.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-25-2013, 06:33 AM
25.8 would be my BMI, rounded to nearest whole of 26. Either way I'd lose points based on this archaic system.

Decimals dropped...25.8 = 25. You'd get max points.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-25-2013, 06:36 AM
you can already test whenever you want, just tell your UFPM to schedule you.

You are correct, most people wait until the last possible day in the month they are due to test to get scheduled because they "don't" want to test. This gives you 6 months of freedom to choose any date you wish...not just one month. You will "want" to test under this system at the best possible time.

Class5Kayaker
08-26-2013, 05:07 PM
StandardsAMust,

I like that you still give points for BMI over 30, but you still haven't said whether you feel BMI is an accurate guage of someone's "fattness." Should a guy like Dwayne Johnson be penalized for promotion points over some 130lb skinny dude? Your system would, which I disagree with.

Also, what about the officers? We don't have a WAPS system, and there are no points involved in our promotion system. It's 100% through Capt (unless you screw up...just like AB-SrA), and after that it's strictly promotion boards with 100% records review, no points associated at all with officer promotions.

imported_StandardsAMust
08-27-2013, 07:08 AM
StandardsAMust,

I like that you still give points for BMI over 30, but you still haven't said whether you feel BMI is an accurate guage of someone's "fattness." Should a guy like Dwayne Johnson be penalized for promotion points over some 130lb skinny dude? Your system would, which I disagree with.

Also, what about the officers? We don't have a WAPS system, and there are no points involved in our promotion system. It's 100% through Capt (unless you screw up...just like AB-SrA), and after that it's strictly promotion boards with 100% records review, no points associated at all with officer promotions.

When it comes to BMI, let's really be honest with ourselves. First, BMI is a great way to quickly see who is most likely overweight or obese. Second, there will always be someone who doesn't fit the mold, but remember, most will be obese if the BMI says they are obese.

Somehow, this forum has painted a picture that people who fail the waist measurement are rock solid athletes that should be playing football or some other professional sport. This is not the case. And those on active duty that are members of this forum know it. The problem is that 98% of them are just fat and they are trying to find a way to continue to be fat.

When we joined the Air Force, the recruiter told us that we had to weigh a certain weight to join. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Everyone passes the PT test at basic training to graduate. The problem is what happens after graduation. Some begin to develop bad habits, eat too much, get lazy, and grow fat. The BMI is the best way to measure large populations. It's easy to do...just find someone's height and weight, the easy formula produces a number.

Eveyone can control their BMI. You know what you need. It's an individual's choice to exceed it. Everyone is in control of it.

While enlisted can score whatever they want, officers will have to score 75 or higher to be eligible for promotion.