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JC1982
08-22-2013, 03:32 PM
Greetings everyone. I need a lot of help. I have a question - is it possible to get a 2 on your EPR without having done anything wrong? My supervisor threatened me today and said that I could get a 2 on my EPR. The thing is I am currently under a medical board. I cannot perform in my AFSC because of a "cognitive disorder". However, I have not received any paperwork throughout this year. It seems the military is doing their best to push me out. I plan on going to the IG and putting up a complaint against my entire unit. What do you think?

20+Years
08-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by JC1982

Greetings everyone. I need a lot of help. I have a question - is it possible to get a 2 on your EPR without having done anything wrong? My supervisor threatened me today and said that I could get a 2 on my EPR. The thing is I am currently under a medical board. I cannot perform in my AFSC because of a "cognitive disorder". However, I have not received any paperwork throughout this year. It seems the military is doing their best to push me out. I plan on going to the IG and putting up a complaint against my entire unit. What do you think?

Measure Man
08-22-2013, 03:39 PM
I think, yes, it is possible to get a 2 without doing anything wrong. Particularly if you cannot perform your job.

What do you expect someone who can not perform thier job to get for a promotion recommendation? Would you recommend someone for promotion who is not capable of performing their assigned job??

If you worked for a private company and could not do the job due to a cognitive disorder...I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even be around long enough to complain. What is your IG complaint going to be based on?

Measure Man
08-22-2013, 03:43 PM
I think, yes, it is possible to get a 2 without doing anything wrong. Particularly if you cannot perform your job.

What do you expect someone who can not perform thier job to get for a promotion recommendation? Would you recommend someone for promotion who is not capable of performing their assigned job??

If you worked for a private company and could not do the job due to a cognitive disorder...I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even be around long enough to complain. What is your IG complaint going to be based on?

If you are incapable of performing your job...why should you NOT be pushed out? I don't get it. What is it that you do here?

20+Years
08-22-2013, 03:52 PM
All kidding aside, the last 2 I gave was to someone awaiting a court martial that ended up with 6 months confinement, reduction to E-1, and a discharge.

Measure Man
08-22-2013, 03:53 PM
I've never had a troop court martialed, but I have given 2s.

Class5Kayaker
08-22-2013, 04:25 PM
If they rate you as a "2," it automatically becomes a referral report and the are REQUIRED to follow the referral EPR process:



1.10.2.2. Any evaluator whose ratings or comments causes an evaluation to become a referral evaluation, must give the ratee the opportunity to comment on the evaluation.

1.10.2.3. Referral evaluations will not be processed electronically, but will be accomplished, printed and contain “wet” (handwritten) signatures only. Dates will be handwritten, stamped or typed. As a referral evaluation could be detrimental to an individual, face-to-face interaction is required.

1.10.3. When to Refer a Performance Evaluation. Performance evaluations must be referred when:

1.10.3.1. Comments in any OPR, EPR, LOE or TR, regardless of the ratings if applicable, or the attachments to that evaluation, that are derogatory in nature, imply or refer to behavior incompatible with, or not meeting minimum acceptable standards of personal or professional conduct, character, judgment or integrity, and/or refer to disciplinary actions. This includes, but is not limited to, comments regarding omissions or misrepresentation of facts in official statements or documents, financial irresponsibility, mismanagement of personal or government affairs, a “Does Not Meet Standards” fitness assessment, unsatisfactory progress in the Fitness Education and Intervention Programs, confirmed incidents of discrimination or mistreatment, illegal use or possession of drugs, AWOL, Article 15 action, and conviction by courts-martial.

1.10.3.3. An evaluator marks “Does Not Meet Standards” in Section III of the EPR.

1.10.3.4. An evaluator marks an overall “1” (Poor) or “2” (Needs Improvement) in Section V of the EPR.

Unless they have supporting documentation, I highly doubt they'll rate you as a "2." Even if they are currently considering it, someone higher up who knows all the ins and outs of the rating system (and knows the AFI I cited above) will eventually point this out to them and they'll probaby just rate you a "3" which doesn't require any of the referral procedures, etc.

Class5Kayaker
08-22-2013, 04:46 PM
Look in THIS THREAD (http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1596654-2-EPR!!!) for my response to your question and other resopnses that are likely to follow.

Bourne, please close this thread so we don't have answers scattered throughout this and the other two threads on the same topic (the OP originally posted his question in a thread about promotion boards for MSgts, then 20+Years created a new thread for the OP, and he's also posted his question in his "intro" above).

:closed_2

Mjölnir
08-22-2013, 05:00 PM
got it.

JC1982
08-22-2013, 06:22 PM
I think, yes, it is possible to get a 2 without doing anything wrong. Particularly if you cannot perform your job.

What do you expect someone who can not perform thier job to get for a promotion recommendation? Would you recommend someone for promotion who is not capable of performing their assigned job??

If you worked for a private company and could not do the job due to a cognitive disorder...I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even be around long enough to complain. What is your IG complaint going to be based on?

I know you do not understand the entire situation, so therefore your opinion is your opinion.
I know my job and I can perform it well. I've worked in units where I had 12 patients (4 surgical) in one night. I've more than outperformed at my rank. I've been on 2 deployments earning achievement medals on both. In my eyes it was a primitive diagnosis set up by the COC. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude at the gossip that goes on in the work place. I have already made plans outside of the military, but find the treatment presented within not following guidelines of what is acceptable under the AFI. That is why I've chosen the route of IG. What happens when you back a rattlesnake into a corner? It goes to the IG.

Class5Kayaker
08-22-2013, 06:29 PM
I know you do not understand the entire situation, so therefore your opinion is your opinion.
I know my job and I can perform it well. I've worked in units where I had 12 patients (4 surgical) in one night. I've more than outperformed at my rank. I've been on 2 deployments earning achievement medals on both. In my eyes it was a primitive diagnosis set up by the COC. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude at the gossip that goes on in the work place. I have already made plans outside of the military, but find the treatment presented within not following guidelines of what is acceptable under the AFI. That is why I've chosen the route of IG. What happens when you back a rattlesnake into a corner? It goes to the IG.

Go to the IG with what....a "He said - She said" story? Recommend you wait until you see an actual "2" EPR being routed before you go to the IG. Then you'll have something to actually file a complaint about. Until then, it's all just something that you are worried might happen in the eyes of the IG. I'm not trying to say you aren't in the right here and that you don't have a valid complaint. Just giving you some advice after 21+ years and knowing how the system works.

Measure Man
08-22-2013, 06:30 PM
I know you do not understand the entire situation, so therefore your opinion is your opinion.

I only know what you post. What you posted was that you can't perform your job


I know my job and I can perform it well. I've worked in units where I had 12 patients (4 surgical) in one night. I've more than outperformed at my rank. I've been on 2 deployments earning achievement medals on both. In my eyes it was a primitive diagnosis set up by the COC. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude at the gossip that goes on in the work place. I have already made plans outside of the military, but find the treatment presented within not following guidelines of what is acceptable under the AFI. That is why I've chosen the route of IG. What happens when you back a rattlesnake into a corner? It goes to the IG.

Good luck.

Smeghead
08-22-2013, 06:40 PM
Rattlesnake...:pound

Pullinteeth
08-22-2013, 06:40 PM
I know you do not understand the entire situation, so therefore your opinion is your opinion.
I know my job and I can perform it well. I've worked in units where I had 12 patients (4 surgical) in one night. I've more than outperformed at my rank. I've been on 2 deployments earning achievement medals on both. In my eyes it was a primitive diagnosis set up by the COC. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude at the gossip that goes on in the work place. I have already made plans outside of the military, but find the treatment presented within not following guidelines of what is acceptable under the AFI. That is why I've chosen the route of IG. What happens when you back a rattlesnake into a corner? It goes to the IG.

So when you said you can't preform in your AFSC you were lying? You were on two deployments during one EPR period in which you couldn't preform in your AFSC? What did you deploy as? TCN escort? Not that there is anything wrong with that but it is fairly uncommon for a 4XXXX to deploy 2x within one EPR period...



Greetings everyone. I need a lot of help. I have a question - is it possible to get a 2 on your EPR without having done anything wrong? My supervisor threatened me today and said that I could get a 2 on my EPR. The thing is I am currently under a medical board. I cannot perform in my AFSC because of a "cognitive disorder". However, I have not received any paperwork throughout this year. It seems the military is doing their best to push me out. I plan on going to the IG and putting up a complaint against my entire unit. What do you think?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 06:56 PM
Rattlesnake...:pound

Dice reference?

Snake eyes = 2

Rattlesnake = 2?

JC1982
08-22-2013, 06:59 PM
It's too long of a story to get into. I've had faith in the COC until recently, but I'm not here to necessarily point fingers and place fault. I have had a successful military career prior to this assignment. I made SSgt by 28.15 points back in 2010. Then I got here to this assignment and was put into an area where I was the only person in a position of which no other personnel were there to train me. I had an NCOIC that made my life very difficult. She even went out of her way to block my wife on facebook (I could care less about facebook, but that doesn't say much about your character). Basically I wrote a 15 page complaint to my supervisor and told him that I felt that I was in a hostile work environment. I was placed in a different area and then my COC places blame on me. Then I get MEB'd due to my Dr's "diagnosis". Needless to say I'm in the med field and the doctor speaks w/ my COC. There have been things said that have not necessarily been true or accurate, but that is aside from the point. My CC's letter to the MEB was greatly inaccurate (I have documented proof). Now here I am fighting for my career. I have lost hope in the COC. I have been threatened with an EPR of "2" but apparently I'm "not in any trouble" because it is something "beyond my control" and my COC is trying to "help me". There are a lot of if's and things are really starting to feel strange. Again, I hate pointing fingers, but 1+1 doesn't = 3. I don't follow hearsay and the only things I have are documented evidence and AFTR entries which lead me to a conclusion that I really hope is not accurate. I know that I have what it takes to outperform other NCOs in my career field, but at my assignment I have not been given a fair opportunity.

CJSmith
08-22-2013, 07:06 PM
I know you do not understand the entire situation, so therefore your opinion is your opinion.
I know my job and I can perform it well. I've worked in units where I had 12 patients (4 surgical) in one night. I've more than outperformed at my rank. I've been on 2 deployments earning achievement medals on both. In my eyes it was a primitive diagnosis set up by the COC. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude at the gossip that goes on in the work place. I have already made plans outside of the military, but find the treatment presented within not following guidelines of what is acceptable under the AFI. That is why I've chosen the route of IG. What happens when you back a rattlesnake into a corner? It goes to the IG.

If you don't care about being anonymous then you're doing a great job at it.

Mcjohn1118
08-22-2013, 07:15 PM
I don't the entire situation, but I always see, hear or read people state they are going to the IG. Well, here is some news for some out there; the IG is not the department to handle EPR ratings. The IG AFI has this rule:
Type of Issue: Appeal of an Officer Performance Report (OPR), Enlisted Performance Report (EPR), or Promotion Recommendation Form (PRF)

Appropriate Agency to Solve Issue: AFPC and vMPF web sites for appropriate processing via AFERAB -- per AFI 36-2401, Correcting Officer and Enlisted Evaluation Reports. For ANG: refer enlisted appraisals to local MPF or command -- ANGR 39-62, Enlisted Performance Appraisal

Now, if the complaint is of the nature of your immediate CoC having it out for you, then instead of going to the IG directly, why not try above your CoC (CC's Boss or higher)?

DWWSWWD
08-22-2013, 07:15 PM
Hmmm. I backed a rattlesnake into a corner once and ended up having to kill it. I don't think it knew the IG was an option. I digress. I'm guessing you have about 5 or 6 years in, got jammed up in an unfamiliar work environment and threw the stress card. Shitting a little too close to the house in your case which has presented a new set of problems. The IG can't help you with a 3 EPR. You'll submit 20 pages of documents throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. It's no good. If there is something wrong with you, I hope the MEB does the right thing in seperating you and taking care of you. If there isn't, I hope you'll move on. The military isn't for everyone and sometimes it takes a few years or new job or supervisor to make someone realize it. You are young and need to find an environment in which you can thrive. We just don't have time these days to be carrying folks for another 14 years. Having said all of that, it's never too late to look in the mirror, find the problem, (hint: it's in the mirror) and hit the reset button. We HMFICs love some personal responsibility and accountability. We'll help you if you are willing to be helped. Hope that helped. See?

Mcjohn1118
08-22-2013, 07:16 PM
Hmmm. I backed a rattlesnake into a corner once and ended up having to kill it. I don't think it knew the IG was an option. I digress. I'm guessing you have about 5 or 6 years in, got jammed up in an unfamiliar work environment and threw the stress card. Shitting a little too close to the house in your case which has presented a new set of problems. The IG can't help you with a 3 EPR. You'll submit 20 pages of documents throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. It's no good. If there is something wrong with you, I hope the MEB does the right thing in seperating you and taking care of you. If there isn't, I hope you'll move on. The military isn't for everyone and sometimes it takes a few years or new job or supervisor to make someone realize it. You are young and need to find an environment in which you can thrive. We just don't have time these days to be carrying folks for another 14 years. Having said all of that, it's never too late to look in the mirror, find the problem, (hint: it's in the mirror) and hit the reset button. We HMFICs love some personal responsibility and accountability. We'll help you if you are willing to be helped. Hope that helped. See?
^^^What s/he said^^^

JC1982
08-22-2013, 07:31 PM
Again you have a right to your opinion and I can respect your opinion. It's so easy to say look in the mirror at the problem and stating the obvious that I have searched for desperately to find an answer to. I agree with the stress and it took me a long time to find out ways to fix it, even though going through what I've experienced was not necessary. The funny part is that when you look in the mirror, there is more than just a reflection. On a computer, it's easy to say "get over it", but living with and through this situation is more than just a mere paragraph can reflect. It's more than throwing 20 pages at a wall. It's more than throwing blame at one another. Living through it has been extremely difficult at times. Not only that, but I have a family. A wife that made $20 per hour (she had to quit) before coming with me and a brand new baby along the way. The military could decide to DQ me without any type of severance and send me and my entire family into unemployment without work. I have education, but education doesn't put food on the table for your family. Do you understand that concept? With a family, I gave my all into providing for them. Now this curse puts me into this situation. I'm not angry or upset, but it doesn't make this situation any easier.

20+Years
08-22-2013, 07:33 PM
You actually had a case for the IG when you felt you were in a hostile work environment. Thats a CC directed investigation at the least.

Now I will tell you this:

1. If I had a troop that gave me a 15 page complaint, that would lower my opinion of that person about 100 fold. I am hoping that you are merely a troll, because if you actually did that, wow.

2. Nobody cares if you made SSgt by .01 or 33.6. The promotion rates have been inflated for years.

3. Nobody I work with is on my facebook and I couldn't care less who my wife blocks/adds or deletes.

4. If you get put in a job with no one to train you... go read the AFIs. Call other bases or comparable positions. Show some initative, be proactive and not reactive and no one will want to give you a 2.

5. MEBs happen all the time. Your not the first, not the last, not special. Some come back discharge, some return to duty. No one will care about an ongoing MEB if you are pulling your weight.

DWWSWWD
08-22-2013, 07:41 PM
I absolutely understand the concept. I've not experienced it personally but I am guessing I joined the Air Force before you were born and have helped teammates through these things many, many times. Sometimes helping them means convincing them that they will not be successful here and helping them transition. Sometimes it means punching an NCOIC in the throat (figuratively) and changing the work environment for that SSgt. Sometimes it's walking them through the IG process. Find someone you trust to help you ID the root of the problem. Ask them to bring a mirror.

Capt Alfredo
08-22-2013, 08:17 PM
I love nothing more than when a troop submits to me a 15-page diatribe laying out all of his maladies and complaints. Keep them coming!

CJSmith
08-22-2013, 08:20 PM
I'm glad you changed your location, that was smart. I'll have to ask my friend that is stationed with you and is in the same career field about it. It's a small world.