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Shadowless
08-19-2013, 10:05 AM
We all know the rules in countries like Korea and Japan with their curfews and thus..

Is it profiling if the military police come up to you during NON curfew hours as you are just standing inside a bar or club minding your own business doing nothing wrong? I am really curious about this rule. Do you HAVE to show them your military ID or can you show them your license or passport? Has anyone ever run into any problems with this?

technomage1
08-19-2013, 10:32 AM
You have to show your ID card on demand to any officer, NCO, or MP when they are acting in the performance of their duties.

Shadowless
08-19-2013, 10:33 AM
You have to show your ID card on demand to any officer, NCO, or MP when they are acting in the performance of their duties.

What if I forgot my military ID? I didn't know you HAD to have your military ID on you 24/7.

technomage1
08-19-2013, 10:39 AM
What if I forgot my military ID? I didn't know you HAD to have your military ID on you 24/7.

They don't teach this in BASIC anymore?

DoD instruction 1000.13, paragraph 6.1.1.1. The card shall be in the personal custody of the member at all times.

Http://cac.mil/docs/DODI-1000.13.pdf

BISSBOSS
08-19-2013, 11:23 AM
They don't teach this in BASIC anymore?

DoD instruction 1000.13, paragraph 6.1.1.1. The card shall be in the personal custody of the member at all times.

Http://cac.mil/docs/DODI-1000.13.pdf

Well handled.

To the Original Poster - "Didn't know"???

... Really? YHGTBSM... What are you, new?

-BB-

BOSS302
08-19-2013, 11:55 AM
We all know the rules in countries like Korea and Japan with their curfews and thus..

Is it profiling if the military police come up to you during NON curfew hours as you are just standing inside a bar or club minding your own business doing nothing wrong? I am really curious about this rule. Do you HAVE to show them your military ID or can you show them your license or passport? Has anyone ever run into any problems with this?

You also fall under SOFA regulations. In the Songtan Entertainment District outside Osan AB in Korea, active duty military are subject to orders from Security Forces personnel...to include presenting a valid military ID upon request. If you try to force the issue, Security Forces has the right to detain you until the Korean National Police show up; they have the authority to demand Passports and national IDs.

I do not like Town Patrol at Osan - or whatever the equal is where you are if not at Osan or Kunsan. Especially since the 2012 "Handcuff Incident" and the manner in which the Town Patrol acts as curfew approaches, I'm not fond of them at all. But not liking something is far different from being a pain in the ass concerning lawful orders.

Just show your ID and save your silver bullets for a fight worth fighting & winning.

71Fish
08-19-2013, 12:42 PM
What if I forgot my military ID? I didn't know you HAD to have your military ID on you 24/7.

Are you being obtuse or are you completely serious?

Airborne
08-19-2013, 12:48 PM
You are being difficult, buuuuuuutttttt. If you see a white, black, or hispanic person (double bonus if they are all hanging out together) outside of OSAN AB and everyone is speaking English in with an American accent (triple bonus if they are talking about the previous week's exercise) then yes you are being profiled. Not much you can do about it though.

BOSS302
08-19-2013, 01:02 PM
You are being difficult, buuuuuuutttttt. If you see a white, black, or hispanic person (double bonus if they are all hanging out together) outside of OSAN AB and everyone is speaking English in with an American accent (triple bonus if they are talking about the previous week's exercise) then yes you are being profiled. Not much you can do about it though.

Quadruple bonus if they each have a different style of dress: Hispanic guy in Dickie's and a white t-shirt, black guy with Air Jordans, jeans, and a Polo shirt with a grossly-oversized polo horse on it, and a white guy in a squadron jersey with cargo shorts and flip-flops.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-19-2013, 01:37 PM
Quadruple bonus if they each have a different style of dress: Hispanic guy in Dickie's and a white t-shirt, black guy with Air Jordans, jeans, and a Polo shirt with a grossly-oversized polo horse on it, and a white guy in a squadron jersey with cargo shorts and flip-flops.

My girlfriend bought me one on those recently and I laughed so hard I had tears coming out of my eyes.

@ The OP

Anyway, why even hang out in the Songton Entertainment district? Walk up over the railway bridge and go to some regular Koren clubs, don't get drunk and stupid though.

Also, show your frigging ID card when asked for it and what is so bad about profiling?

technomage1
08-19-2013, 06:30 PM
You also fall under SOFA regulations. In the Songtan Entertainment District outside Osan AB in Korea, active duty military are subject to orders from Security Forces personnel...to include presenting a valid military ID upon request. If you try to force the issue, Security Forces has the right to detain you until the Korean National Police show up; they have the authority to demand Passports and national IDs.

I do not like Town Patrol at Osan - or whatever the equal is where you are if not at Osan or Kunsan. Especially since the 2012 "Handcuff Incident" and the manner in which the Town Patrol acts as curfew approaches, I'm not fond of them at all. But not liking something is far different from being a pain in the ass concerning lawful orders.

Just show your ID and save your silver bullets for a fight worth fighting & winning.

Let's just say the member refuses to show the ID. That's one count of failure to obey (Article 92). Lying and saying you forgot it or saying that you're a civilian. Well, that's a false official statement (Article 107). If you state you're a teacher or something what they're going to do - since you stand out like a sore thumb with that GI haircut - is get the LN police over to check your documents. So any which way you slice it, you're going to be found out and get into trouble. It's best to show them the card and mind your P's and Q's. Also, let's say you guenuinely forgot the card in your gym bag or whatnot. Be honest about it and beg for mercy. 9/10 they're going to cut you a break on the order you violated (not carrying it with you) if you're otherwise not making trouble and don't hide your identity in any way.

I never got stopped by town patrol or asked for ID either in Japan or Korea. I have said hello to them, but that's it. Reason being I don't go out and make an @$$ of myself out on the town. I'm not loud, I'm not stumbling drunk (or if I am I hide it well) I respect local customs, etc.

BOSS302
08-19-2013, 07:23 PM
Let's just say the member refuses to show the ID. That's one count of failure to obey (Article 92). Lying and saying you forgot it or saying that you're a civilian. Well, that's a false official statement (Article 107). If you state you're a teacher or something what they're going to do - since you stand out like a sore thumb with that GI haircut - is get the LN police over to check your documents. So any which way you slice it, you're going to be found out and get into trouble. It's best to show them the card and mind your P's and Q's. Also, let's say you guenuinely forgot the card in your gym bag or whatnot. Be honest about it and beg for mercy. 9/10 they're going to cut you a break on the order you violated (not carrying it with you) if you're otherwise not making trouble and don't hide your identity in any way.

I never got stopped by town patrol or asked for ID either in Japan or Korea. I have said hello to them, but that's it. Reason being I don't go out and make an @$$ of myself out on the town. I'm not loud, I'm not stumbling drunk (or if I am I hide it well) I respect local customs, etc.

Completely agree. Just show the ID and move on.

This is what I did one night when on leave and out past curfew; I was walking back to my apartment about 0130 and I'm stopped by Town Patrol outside Click. I was sober and offered zero resistance. I handed over my ID and leave paperwork. The SFS guy immediately looks me over and aggressively says, "Do we have a problem tonight, TSgt?"

I was pretty taken aback and said, "Excuse me?" The SFS guy said I did not need to hand my ID over with "such attitude." I did not understand as I handed my ID and paperwork to him in a completely normal manner. I couldn't see his name or rank because he was wearing one of those stupid looking ABU raincoat things with only the TP sash on his arm, as did his buddy. After I told him I had no attitude and that I was happy to discuss it at the Main Gate, he pushed the ID and paperwork back into my hand and told me to "Press".

I met many great people who were out and about on Town Patrol. They would usually stop by the Dawg Pound and chat for a bit. Town Patrol chased away a Korean who was trying to take my bicycle from outside Camel Espresso. Yet there were several bad apples with attitude and a chip on their shoulder who gave Town Patrol a bad name. That arrogance and attitude is what caused the Handcuff Incident and is what led to Town Patrol losing their handguns and having to be paired with KATUSAs and KNP. That arrogance and attitude is what leads normally rational people to want to "challenge" them during routine and simple things such as ID checks.

I can understand where the OP is coming from but Town Patrol will win just about any battle concerning GIs outside the gate. Just the way it is.

Pullinteeth
08-19-2013, 07:29 PM
Let's just say the member refuses to show the ID. That's one count of failure to obey (Article 92). Lying and saying you forgot it or saying that you're a civilian. Well, that's a false official statement (Article 107). If you state you're a teacher or something what they're going to do - since you stand out like a sore thumb with that GI haircut - is get the LN police over to check your documents. So any which way you slice it, you're going to be found out and get into trouble. It's best to show them the card and mind your P's and Q's. Also, let's say you guenuinely forgot the card in your gym bag or whatnot. Be honest about it and beg for mercy. 9/10 they're going to cut you a break on the order you violated (not carrying it with you) if you're otherwise not making trouble and don't hide your identity in any way.

I never got stopped by town patrol or asked for ID either in Japan or Korea. I have said hello to them, but that's it. Reason being I don't go out and make an @$$ of myself out on the town. I'm not loud, I'm not stumbling drunk (or if I am I hide it well) I respect local customs, etc.

And it will cost you;

"A first lieutenant from the 8th Security Forces Squadron received Article 15 for failure to go and violating a lawful general regulation in violation of Articles 92 and 107, UCMJ. The Airman was apprehended for not being in a hotel room after curfew. When ask by town patrol if they are a member of the military the Airman replied no. The commander imposed the following punishment: forfeiture of $1,865 pay per month for two months, portion of the forfeitures in excess of $100 pay per month for two months suspended, 30 days restriction, restriction from the Loring Club, Community Activity Center, all squadron hooches for 30 days and a reprimand."

http://www.kunsan.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123064072

I was once arrested for failure to identify and failure to obey a lawful order...after showing the SP my ID as requested... Got an LOR for it-even though I didn't do it an had witnesses.

technomage1
08-19-2013, 08:44 PM
And it will cost you;

"A first lieutenant from the 8th Security Forces Squadron received Article 15 for failure to go and violating a lawful general regulation in violation of Articles 92 and 107, UCMJ. The Airman was apprehended for not being in a hotel room after curfew. When ask by town patrol if they are a member of the military the Airman replied no. The commander imposed the following punishment: forfeiture of $1,865 pay per month for two months, portion of the forfeitures in excess of $100 pay per month for two months suspended, 30 days restriction, restriction from the Loring Club, Community Activity Center, all squadron hooches for 30 days and a reprimand."

http://www.kunsan.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123064072

I was once arrested for failure to identify and failure to obey a lawful order...after showing the SP my ID as requested... Got an LOR for it-even though I didn't do it an had witnesses.

Interesting link...did you see the last one?

"A captain from the 8th Services Squadron received an Article 15 for failure to go and violating a lawful general regulation in violation of Articles 107 and 133, UCMJ. The Airman made a false official statement to his commander regarding his leave. The Airman repeatedly belittled, berated, directed excessive profanity, verbally attacked and sent disrespectful emails toward civilian, enlisted and officers of the 8th Services Squadron. He also escorted a woman not his wife, onto Kunsan Air Base, numerous times for overnight visits in his dorm room. Seventh Air Force Commander imposed the following punishment: forfeiture of $2,856 pay per month for two months, portion of the forfeitures in excess of $1,428 pay per month for two months is suspended, and a reprimand".

I don't know what it is about Korea that turns people stupid. Seriously, an affair is bad enough, but signing her on base? WTF? Has he never heard of a love hotel?

imported_AFKILO7
08-19-2013, 11:48 PM
I will readily admit there are douche canoes in the cop career field and I dislike them as much as everyone else. With that in mind I dislike it when people want to give me grief for doing my job.

To the OP what was the entire situation? Why did the SFS person request your ID? I mean in all honesty if you aren't Korean it is pretty obvious especially by the way people dress and your haircut to determine if you are military or affiliated.

Your_Name_Here
08-20-2013, 03:45 AM
And it will cost you;

"A first lieutenant from the 8th Security Forces Squadron received Article 15 for failure to go and violating a lawful general regulation in violation of Articles 92 and 107, UCMJ. The Airman was apprehended for not being in a hotel room after curfew. When ask by town patrol if they are a member of the military the Airman replied no. The commander imposed the following punishment: forfeiture of $1,865 pay per month for two months, portion of the forfeitures in excess of $100 pay per month for two months suspended, 30 days restriction, restriction from the Loring Club, Community Activity Center, all squadron hooches for 30 days and a reprimand." [SNIP]


Just read the blotter, and about the above 8 SFS LT. How in the HELL do you, as a SECURITY FORCES OFFICER, LIE about being in the military--to your OWN DAMN SQUADRON!?! LOL

Even if you don't know everyone assigned to SFS, SOMEONE is bound to recognize you!! I can't believe this guy really thought he was gonna get away with that one, unless he was new--the rest is just plain dumb, what he did. As for the Captain from SVS--I should ask my old friends and see if its anyone I used to know. I could always use a good laugh at his expense if he was a known douchebag (though whoever it is, he definitely acted plenty like one leading up to his Art 15).

RobotChicken
08-20-2013, 06:20 AM
Interesting link...did you see the last one?

"A captain from the 8th Services Squadron received an Article 15 for failure to go and violating a lawful general regulation in violation of Articles 107 and 133, UCMJ. The Airman made a false official statement to his commander regarding his leave. The Airman repeatedly belittled, berated, directed excessive profanity, verbally attacked and sent disrespectful emails toward civilian, enlisted and officers of the 8th Services Squadron. He also escorted a woman not his wife, onto Kunsan Air Base, numerous times for overnight visits in his dorm room. Seventh Air Force Commander imposed the following punishment: forfeiture of $2,856 pay per month for two months, portion of the forfeitures in excess of $1,428 pay per month for two months is suspended, and a reprimand".

I don't know what it is about Korea that turns people stupid. Seriously, an affair is bad enough, but signing her on base? WTF? Has he never heard of a love hotel?

"Was she signed in by 'Robot Chicken' by chance?"

Shadowless
08-20-2013, 01:26 PM
I will readily admit there are douche canoes in the cop career field and I dislike them as much as everyone else. With that in mind I dislike it when people want to give me grief for doing my job.

To the OP what was the entire situation? Why did the SFS person request your ID? I mean in all honesty if you aren't Korean it is pretty obvious especially by the way people dress and your haircut to determine if you are military or affiliated.

This was the situation. For those who make assumptions I am not stationed at Osan or Kunsan or any other Air Force Base. I was out in Seoul away from base at midnight, inside a bar/club minding my own business with a few friends. I wasn't dancing or acting crazy I was just standing there talking to my friend when an SP approached me and asked for my ID. I gave him my drivers license, I then gave him my pass/leave paper work form and he said he didn't want to see that he wanted to see my military ID. I gave it to him and he looked and walked away. I just mumbled...'every damn week' and went on my way.

I have no issues with SPS doing their job, but what I want to know is why did they have the need to card me before curfew hours and why didn't they card my fellow military who were standing right next to me? I honestly didn't know the military could just walk up to you at any moment for no reason at all and harass you in front of other people. My issue is with making me look like an idiot inside a bar/club with my fellow friends and Koreans around wondering what I did wrong. So yeah, those SPs can kiss my ass. I have never gotten any paper work or did anything wrong in my career.

There is a huge difference in doing your job, taking advantage of your job and being disrespectful.

Shadowless
08-20-2013, 01:33 PM
I'm not trying to sound like a jerk and yes there are some really dumb people in Korea who stay out pass curfew around the base where its easy to get caught. Be smart...there are many many many places in Korea where the US Military are not allowed to 'patrol' or harass! But on a serious note...being in Korea can really change a persons view on the United States Military. (of course I think the US military is great ;))

imported_AFKILO7
08-20-2013, 01:49 PM
This was the situation. For those who make assumptions I am not stationed at Osan or Kunsan or any other Air Force Base. I was out in Seoul away from base at midnight, inside a bar/club minding my own business with a few friends. I wasn't dancing or acting crazy I was just standing there talking to my friend when an SP approached me and asked for my ID. I gave him my drivers license, I then gave him my pass/leave paper work form and he said he didn't want to see that he wanted to see my military ID. I gave it to him and he looked and walked away. I just mumbled...'every damn week' and went on my way.

I have no issues with SPS doing their job, but what I want to know is why did they have the need to card me before curfew hours and why didn't they card my fellow military who were standing right next to me? I honestly didn't know the military could just walk up to you at any moment for no reason at all and harass you in front of other people. My issue is with making me look like an idiot inside a bar/club with my fellow friends and Koreans around wondering what I did wrong. So yeah, those SPs can kiss my ass. I have never gotten any paper work or did anything wrong in my career.

There is a huge difference in doing your job, taking advantage of your job and being disrespectful.

I don't know what to tell you. I've been asked by non cops for my ID for what I felt was no reason and I didn't feel like an idiot. Obviously people percieve things differently. One thing about the situation that baffles me is that you were in Seoul, I didn't know we (AF) have a town patrol actively working in Seoul. Interesting indeed.

Shadowless
08-20-2013, 01:55 PM
Was not airforce town patrol...was army.

Class5Kayaker
08-20-2013, 06:42 PM
What if I forgot my military ID? I didn't know you HAD to have your military ID on you 24/7.

How were you planning on getting back on base if you "forgot" your ID?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-20-2013, 07:41 PM
I still want to know what is wrong with profiling.
If a clothing manufacturer markets a specific type of clothing t blacks, is that racist?

If a military cop singles out what he thinks are military personnel that is some form of discrimination?

If a comedian targets his act to appeal to southern white guys, is that racist?

If a NYPD cops stops and frisks young black males to disrupt gang violence among young black males, is that racist?

The term profiling is being used to softly or indirectly imply that police are racists. It is mostly a bogus claim in my opinion.

I think the OP should get over the fact that an MP asked to look at his ID card. So what?

ThaBufe
08-20-2013, 08:30 PM
If a NYPD cops stops and frisks young black males to disrupt gang violence among young black males, is that racist?


I would say that it probably is. The rest of them I don't have a problem with but a cop should want to stop all gang violence, not just black gang violence. That aside, he shouldn't be frisking anybody unless they are first suspected of a specific crime. Now if he's stopping all black males with a specific dress, build, or appearance because they fit the description of a wanted criminal, then I would say that is not racist but being black alone isn't enough cause to stop somebody.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-20-2013, 08:37 PM
I would say that it probably is. The rest of them I don't have a problem with but a cop should want to stop all gang violence, not just black gang violence. That aside, he shouldn't be frisking anybody unless they are first suspected of a specific crime. Now if he's stopping all black males with a specific dress, build, or appearance because they fit the description of a wanted criminal, then I would say that is not racist but being black alone isn't enough cause to stop somebody.

What if they are in a particular neighborhood that only has black drug gangs?

ThaBufe
08-20-2013, 08:47 PM
What if they are in a particular neighborhood that only has black drug gangs?

Then he/she should only be stopping people who at least loosely match the description of somebody suspected of a crime. Can't just go to the hood and stop everybody you see.

efmbman
08-20-2013, 09:44 PM
I still want to know what is wrong with profiling.
If a clothing manufacturer markets a specific type of clothing t blacks, is that racist?

If a military cop singles out what he thinks are military personnel that is some form of discrimination?

If a comedian targets his act to appeal to southern white guys, is that racist?

If a NYPD cops stops and frisks young black males to disrupt gang violence among young black males, is that racist?

The term profiling is being used to softly or indirectly imply that police are racists. It is mostly a bogus claim in my opinion.

I think the OP should get over the fact that an MP asked to look at his ID card. So what?

I agree - it is mostly bogus. It is used only when it will further an agenda of some sort.

efmbman
08-20-2013, 10:11 PM
The thing that is most troublesome about profiling is that it works.

In most cases, I would agree that it does work. That is the most offending part of profiling to those that oppose it.

Here is a very funny-but-true bit from Dave Chappelle regarding how one dresses and how that can lead to prejudicial thoughts:


The girl says "Oh uh-uh, wait a minute! Wait a minute! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a whore!" Which is true. Gentlemen, that is true. Just because they dress a certain way doesn't mean they are a certain way. Don't ever forget it. But ladies, you must understand that is ****ing confusing. It just is. Now that would be like me, Dave Chappelle, the comedian, walking down the street in a cop uniform. Somebody might run up on me, saying, "Oh, thank God. Officer, help us! Come on. They're over here. Help us!" "Oh-hoh! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a police officer!" See what I mean? All right, ladies, fine. You are not a whore. But you are wearing a whore's uniform.

Granted, this is meant as a joke but there is a great deal of truth behind it.

sharkhunter
08-20-2013, 10:40 PM
This is not limited to Japan or Korea, but in Germany as well. Under the SOFA agreement (at least from what I remember when I was stationed in Spangdahlem from 04-08) SFS also had authority in the local communities and surrounding areas all the way to Trier. MPs had authority outside Baumholder community as well. That means if you were asked for ID, you'd show it. But like others have mention, you're speaking english in Germany, you're gonna stand out. SFS or MPs won't necessarily approach you unless you're doing something that looks suspicious or you're completely drunk off your ass.
Now AF didn't have a curfew, but I remember being in a pub in Baumholder when the Army post did have a curfew. We should've known when the town was oddly quiet that there was a curfew, but it we didn't know until we were aggressively approached by two MPs, but once we showed our IDs, they informed us of the situation and advised us to go elsewhere.

A few times we have gotten away with not having our IDs on us for safety/security reasons. If we were going to a local fair or beer festival, we'd leave our military IDs at someone's home and then carry on the night. We still had stateside IDs or passports on us in case we were ID'd by the German police. Only once were we stopped by SFS in Wittlich, but once we explained our situation, they were understandable and told us to have a good night and be careful.

Shadowless
08-21-2013, 10:00 AM
Is the military a dictatorship or just a double standard? Lets be serious, stopping people for no reason to look at their military ID is the biggest joke I have ever heard of. I have never been stopped unless it was at the gate in my nine years for anyone to look at my ID until I got to Korea.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-21-2013, 01:39 PM
Is the military a dictatorship or just a double standard? Lets be serious, stopping people for no reason to look at their military ID is the biggest joke I have ever heard of. I have never been stopped unless it was at the gate in my nine years for anyone to look at my ID until I got to Korea.

No, the military isn't a dictatorship but it is an authoritarian organization. You submitted to that authority when you took the oath.

This was made abundantly clear to me from day one of my service.

Surely, you know this and just misspoke?