PDA

View Full Version : Things that should go away...



AERYCK13
08-18-2013, 08:35 AM
I don't post on here often, but with the sequestration, drawdowns, and fiscal irresponsibility I hereby move that the following should be suspended/terminated
- The Thunderbirds (The Blue Angels are better anyway)
- The USAF Drill Team (C'mon, we all know the Marines have us smoked in this category)
- Tops in Blue (Does anyone actually go to those shows that don't have to?)
- All Bands (Or at least just have one joint band, each service doesn't need it's own and the USAF certainly doesn't need 12 Active and 11 ANG Bands)
- All of the extra crap you see in AF Times every week: Airman climb Mt. Everest, EOD hikes from Texas to Florida, etc... (Really, you know they're not doing on leave)
- Tuition Assistance (I know I'll get beat up for this one) Everyone else in the world pays for college somehow, you should too

This is just me venting, but there's a lot of NCO's, SNCO's and O's in those programs that could be contibuting to the mission so maybe we don't have to deploy once a year anymore. And all of that funding could be better used somewhere else.

Any other ideas?

BOSS302
08-18-2013, 09:16 AM
I don't post on here often, but with the sequestration, drawdowns, and fiscal irresponsibility I hereby move that the following should be suspended/terminated
- The Thunderbirds (The Blue Angels are better anyway)
- The USAF Drill Team (C'mon, we all know the Marines have us smoked in this category)
- Tops in Blue (Does anyone actually go to those shows that don't have to?)
- All Bands (Or at least just have one joint band, each service doesn't need it's own and the USAF certainly doesn't need 12 Active and 11 ANG Bands)
- All of the extra crap you see in AF Times every week: Airman climb Mt. Everest, EOD hikes from Texas to Florida, etc... (Really, you know they're not doing on leave)
- Tuition Assistance (I know I'll get beat up for this one) Everyone else in the world pays for college somehow, you should too

This is just me venting, but there's a lot of NCO's, SNCO's and O's in those programs that could be contibuting to the mission so maybe we don't have to deploy once a year anymore. And all of that funding could be better used somewhere else.

Any other ideas?

Why would you list a lot of organizational excesses and then end it with a silly idea to wholly-cut a personnel benefit? By your logic of "everyone else pays so you should too" (I do find your use of "you" instead of "us" in this sentence interesting as it shows a shift based upon personal bias), then we should be paying 100% for health care and retirement...yet you've excluded those.

There is a laundry list of Air Force expenses that can and should be cut first, starting with the waste and excess that is nakedly-present in the military industrial complex. Axing first the benefits of the rank & file is a poor course of action.

waveshaper2
08-18-2013, 09:24 AM
I don't post on here often, but with the sequestration, drawdowns, and fiscal irresponsibility I hereby move that the following should be suspended/terminated
- The Thunderbirds (The Blue Angels are better anyway)
- The USAF Drill Team (C'mon, we all know the Marines have us smoked in this category)
- Tops in Blue (Does anyone actually go to those shows that don't have to?)
- All Bands (Or at least just have one joint band, each service doesn't need it's own and the USAF certainly doesn't need 12 Active and 11 ANG Bands)
- All of the extra crap you see in AF Times every week: Airman climb Mt. Everest, EOD hikes from Texas to Florida, etc... (Really, you know they're not doing on leave)
- Tuition Assistance (I know I'll get beat up for this one) Everyone else in the world pays for college somehow, you should too

This is just me venting, but there's a lot of NCO's, SNCO's and O's in those programs that could be contibuting to the mission so maybe we don't have to deploy once a year anymore. And all of that funding could be better used somewhere else.

Any other ideas?

Not a bad start but I would leave TA alone. I also would never go after memorial type events such as;

http://www.aetc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123225931

akruse
08-18-2013, 09:55 AM
With such new bold eye opening ideas, I think you're destined for greatness.

AERYCK13
08-18-2013, 10:41 AM
Why would you list a lot of organizational excesses and then end it with a silly idea to wholly-cut a personnel benefit? By your logic of "everyone else pays so you should too" (I do find your use of "you" instead of "us" in this sentence interesting as it shows a shift based upon personal bias), then we should be paying 100% for health care and retirement...yet you've excluded those.

There is a laundry list of Air Force expenses that can and should be cut first, starting with the waste and excess that is nakedly-present in the military industrial complex. Axing first the benefits of the rank & file is a poor course of action.

Fair enough... WE should pay for our own college. However, many companies and corporations pay for their employee's health care and/or retirement benefits, just like the military does for US

AERYCK13
08-18-2013, 10:43 AM
With such new bold eye opening ideas, I think you're destined for greatness.

Thank you for your sarcasm...

Drackore
08-18-2013, 11:16 AM
I think our creative genius would be better utilized looking for ways to cut needless additional duties and ancillary training from our days, things we can actually push up that we control. The things addressed in the op have been whined about several dozen times in the past year. No one will ever listen to us if we ever grabbed the ear of the SecAF or CSAF. If we can get a solid list of add'l duties and training that we due on a day to day or annual basis that make no sense (or no more sense), or a better way to do it...then we can possibly push that up, or get the editors of AF Times to front page it (like they did a few yrs back with the open letter to Chief Roy) and give it another shot.

CSAF Welsh said he wanted to give us our time back. So far, I haven't seen it. All I've seen are the careerists trying to find ways to cram more crap to make themselves look better then ever. Anyways, if Gen Welsh is serious...let's get him a list of "boots on the ground" ideas. BL: We don't want his clueless and out of touch aides giving him the ideas. That's just shooting ourselves in our collective rears.

I'll start.

Revamp Ancillary Training again. Eliminate the requirement to take Self Aid/Buddy Care and Chem/Bio/Nuclear computer courses prior to taking a classroom course. Eliminate taking any type of deployment course unless you have a hard tasking to deploy. Eliminate the need for mob folders unless you have a hard tasking to deploy (obviously exemptions for enabler units, etc). Same with M16/M4/M9 quals.

Additional Duties:

We have Benchstock, Supply Monitors, Reusable Containers, Precious Metals, DIFM, and a dedicated Supply person in our unit. Ummm, why does every shop have all those monitors and a dedicated supply person and an entire LRS unit on base? The supply person doesn't even do anything except make a phone case if something isn't moving, because LRS won't talk to our appointed monitors. They literally do nothing but go to the gym and surf web sites all day. Either make that dedicated person the single point and eliminate all the duties, or send them back to LRS and combine all those duties into a single duty, and make LRS talk to the monitor.

Brain is dying, will think of more later. Feel free to add.

tiredretiredE7
08-18-2013, 12:06 PM
I don't post on here often, but with the sequestration, drawdowns, and fiscal irresponsibility I hereby move that the following should be suspended/terminated
- The Thunderbirds (The Blue Angels are better anyway)
- The USAF Drill Team (C'mon, we all know the Marines have us smoked in this category)
- Tops in Blue (Does anyone actually go to those shows that don't have to?)
- All Bands (Or at least just have one joint band, each service doesn't need it's own and the USAF certainly doesn't need 12 Active and 11 ANG Bands)
- All of the extra crap you see in AF Times every week: Airman climb Mt. Everest, EOD hikes from Texas to Florida, etc... (Really, you know they're not doing on leave)
- Tuition Assistance (I know I'll get beat up for this one) Everyone else in the world pays for college somehow, you should too

This is just me venting, but there's a lot of NCO's, SNCO's and O's in those programs that could be contibuting to the mission so maybe we don't have to deploy once a year anymore. And all of that funding could be better used somewhere else.

Any other ideas?

CCAF; is the lowest hanging fruit.
Wing historians

Chief_KO
08-18-2013, 12:10 PM
Some shop additional duties are self-imposed. Unless directly required by T.O. or AFI, bold leadership should put the end to them. Example, the tired old requirement that each workcenter needs to have it's own "safety bulletin board". One centrally located board (accessible by many shops, like in a central hallway) meets the AFI requirement. It's time for those boards to go virtual, have a sharepoint site that "posts" all the various letters, etc. Does the new wing commander's policy on safety, sexual assault, DUI, etc. really say anything of value or is it simply a CYA requirement. It is possible that additional duties could be shared between sister shops...if the unit is hell-bent on supply/PMEL/DIFM liaisons, combine them into a single duty with 1 rep from each workcenter rather than each workcenter having 2-3 doing the duty. There are ways to be smart, but it requires bold leadership (or is it management?) willing to think smart vice thinking "that's the way it was when I was a SSgt..."

Chief_KO
08-18-2013, 12:12 PM
Many (most) companies offer Tuition Assistance along with healthcare & retirement benefits. The very last thing any Enlisted member should support is the cutback of any of our benefits. There is waste and inefficiency, but benefits are not the place to look.

MACHINE666
08-18-2013, 12:14 PM
I don't post on here often, but with the sequestration, drawdowns, and fiscal irresponsibility I hereby move that the following should be suspended/terminated
- The Thunderbirds (The Blue Angels are better anyway)
- The USAF Drill Team (C'mon, we all know the Marines have us smoked in this category)
- Tops in Blue (Does anyone actually go to those shows that don't have to?)
- All Bands (Or at least just have one joint band, each service doesn't need it's own and the USAF certainly doesn't need 12 Active and 11 ANG Bands)
- All of the extra crap you see in AF Times every week: Airman climb Mt. Everest, EOD hikes from Texas to Florida, etc... (Really, you know they're not doing on leave)
- Tuition Assistance (I know I'll get beat up for this one) Everyone else in the world pays for college somehow, you should too

This is just me venting, but there's a lot of NCO's, SNCO's and O's in those programs that could be contibuting to the mission so maybe we don't have to deploy once a year anymore. And all of that funding could be better used somewhere else.

Any other ideas?

How about your job position in your AFSC? That would save lotsa cash for Uncle Scam to use and abuse by funding the Muslim Brotherhood or Al Qaida!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Mr. Happy
08-18-2013, 01:12 PM
About 25% to 30% of the total AF end strength. Cut manning to the bone and we'll be forced to better utilize our manning and time management. No one will have time to even think about doing all the silly stuff except trying to maintain primary mission. We have waste and silly stuff because people aren't gainfully employed.

waveshaper2
08-18-2013, 01:12 PM
Hikes from Texas to Florida I believe is a Special Tactics thing. This memorial event or any other similar types of memorial event should never be on any reduction/elimination list.

Smeghead
08-18-2013, 03:14 PM
Thank you for your sarcasm...

Sarcasm was warranted. Only idea you presented which hasn't been brought up a million times before was TA.

imported_KnuckleDragger
08-18-2013, 03:14 PM
- All of the extra crap you see in AF Times every week: Airman climb Mt. Everest, EOD hikes from Texas to Florida, etc... (Really, you know they're not doing on leave)


I an curious, how many permissive TDYs are still approved for sports tournaments and what not. I have to pick up the slack, while you go play grabass on the Air Force's dime!

UH1FE
08-18-2013, 03:20 PM
Officers without technical degrees. If you have a degree in political science then an enlisted can do the same job in the same manner.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-18-2013, 09:24 PM
Officers without technical degrees. If you have a degree in political science then an enlisted can do the same job in the same manner.

Why not just do away with officers altogether and make Chief Cody the CSAF. Imagine the money we can save!

BigBaze
08-18-2013, 09:35 PM
About 25% to 30% of the total AF end strength. Cut manning to the bone and we'll be forced to better utilize our manning and time management. No one will have time to even think about doing all the silly stuff except trying to maintain primary mission. We have waste and silly stuff because people aren't gainfully employed.


The sad thing is even if they did slash manning down to a minimum, all that extra stuff we do now would not go away. That stuff gets people promoted, wins them awards and makes them "visible" to leadership. The Air Force has not been about the mission for a long time now and I doubt it ever will be.

BadBender
08-18-2013, 10:03 PM
- Most CBTs or at least the annual requirement to complete it. Do we really need a CBT on how to use a fire extinguisher? They have stickers on them with pictures showing you how to use the thing!

- Ditch the Airman’s Creed. Stop painting it on walls and making people recite it. Instead teach Airmen the Code of Conduct. That might actually help them one day.

- Static displays with lighting. These things cost money to maintain (paint, landscaping, replacing light bulbs). Sure, it’s not much money but a few displays on each base times the bases worldwide adds up.

- Policy letters from the Wing CC, Group CC and Squadron CC, that say practically the same thing. Also remove the requirement to have the most current one for an inspection. I have yet to see a commander say they have a 10% tolerance for drug use/rape/sexual assault. Waste of paper and ink!

That’s all I can think of right now.

sharkhunter
08-18-2013, 10:13 PM
I an curious, how many permissive TDYs are still approved for sports tournaments and what not. I have to pick up the slack, while you go play grabass on the Air Force's dime!

The AF doesn't pay anyone for going on PTDY, you have to fund yourself. It's just nonchargeable leave. I've taken many PTDYs for racquetball tournaments throughout Europe and some guys take PTDY to do the USAFE bowling championship at Ramstein. The official AF sports program is a regular TDY with per diem, etc. However, you have to apply to HQ/AF and part of the application process is you have to prove you're the best of your sport in your base/command/region, etc. For some sports (golf, soccer, volleyball) if you're good enough, you can be selected to go on the Team USA Military team and go compete against other country's military teams. For individual sports (track and field, shooting) you can apply all the way to the US Olympic level. On both cases, you're still on TDY status while you compete.

imported_KnuckleDragger
08-18-2013, 11:14 PM
The AF doesn't pay anyone for going on PTDY, you have to fund yourself. It's just nonchargeable leave. I've taken many PTDYs for racquetball tournaments throughout Europe and some guys take PTDY to do the USAFE bowling championship at Ramstein. The official AF sports program is a regular TDY with per diem, etc. However, you have to apply to HQ/AF and part of the application process is you have to prove you're the best of your sport in your base/command/region, etc. For some sports (golf, soccer, volleyball) if you're good enough, you can be selected to go on the Team USA Military team and go compete against other country's military teams. For individual sports (track and field, shooting) you can apply all the way to the US Olympic level. On both cases, you're still on TDY status while you compete.

The AF is not getting what they pay you for as an employee. The AF shouldn't be paying you your PAYCHECK for this BS. Then, I have to justify to 5 people why my guys need safety equipment because the budget is so tight. The AF is not a college, go play sports on your own time, i.e take some chargeable leave. Don't even get me started if you got some sort of enlistment bonus, and take these free trips.

VCO
08-19-2013, 09:15 AM
I don't post on here often, but with the sequestration, drawdowns, and fiscal irresponsibility I hereby move that the following should be suspended/terminated
- The Thunderbirds (The Blue Angels are better anyway)
- The USAF Drill Team (C'mon, we all know the Marines have us smoked in this category)
- Tops in Blue (Does anyone actually go to those shows that don't have to?)
- All Bands (Or at least just have one joint band, each service doesn't need it's own and the USAF certainly doesn't need 12 Active and 11 ANG Bands)
- All of the extra crap you see in AF Times every week: Airman climb Mt. Everest, EOD hikes from Texas to Florida, etc... (Really, you know they're not doing on leave)
- Tuition Assistance (I know I'll get beat up for this one) Everyone else in the world pays for college somehow, you should too

This is just me venting, but there's a lot of NCO's, SNCO's and O's in those programs that could be contibuting to the mission so maybe we don't have to deploy once a year anymore. And all of that funding could be better used somewhere else.

Any other ideas?

Millions of dollars could be saved by cracking down on corrupt foreign contractors at OCONUS locations. I know. Easier said than done.

Get rid of custodial & grounds MX service contracts

Made AAFES and FSS reimburse all expenses OCONUS. Must be nice to have buildings maintained, powered, and all services provided for free -- just to allow you to gouge people.

Food stamps. Not AF related per se, but I was reading that the cost went from around $300M to $800M in the last 7-8 years. That is just crazy...

Mandate that all single E4s and below stay in the dorms. This would literally save around $100M a year AF-wide



I think the only way to really fix this is to keep cutting budgets until the stupid stuff works it self out. Once a unit reaches the breaking point, bump up funding a bit at call it good. People will always think the stuff their unit needs is a priority, but once the nipple is removed, things will get realistic.

BOSS302
08-19-2013, 09:43 AM
Millions of dollars could be saved by cracking down on corrupt foreign contractors at OCONUS locations. I know. Easier said than done.

Get rid of custodial & grounds MX service contracts

Made AAFES and FSS reimburse all expenses OCONUS. Must be nice to have buildings maintained, powered, and all services provided for free -- just to allow you to gouge people.

Food stamps. Not AF related per se, but I was reading that the cost went from around $300M to $800M in the last 7-8 years. That is just crazy...

Mandate that all single E4s and below stay in the dorms. This would literally save around $100M a year AF-wide



I think the only way to really fix this is to keep cutting budgets until the stupid stuff works it self out. Once a unit reaches the breaking point, bump up funding a bit at call it good. People will always think the stuff their unit needs is a priority, but once the nipple is removed, things will get realistic.

Huh? AAFES and FSS facilities that are Non-Appropiated Funds pay utilities. They are metered and have to pay for their usage of water, electricity, and gas. I used to read their meters myself and submit the readings for eventual billing. That's why it's an issue if the meters on these buildings do not have the proper calibration; it's costing them money.

Surely you do not think Burger King, Manchu Wok, Starbucks, the Auto Hobby Shop, and others simply get a free ride, do you? That the money they take in is just pure profit??

imported_DannyJ
08-19-2013, 01:04 PM
Get rid of custodial & grounds MX service contracts

I wholeheartedly agree. Amn learn some humility from these jobs and it goes back to having pride in where you work.


Made AAFES and FSS reimburse all expenses OCONUS. Must be nice to have buildings maintained, powered, and all services provided for free -- just to allow you to gouge people.

Nope.


Mandate that all single E4s and below stay in the dorms. This would literally save around $100M a year AF-wide

Don't know where you are, but I haven't been at any base that let's them leave the dorms unless the dorm is at 90.something % capacity. If we were to make that a requirement, we'd have to come up with a whole shit ton of money short term to pay for new dorms to accommodate.

Rusty Jones
08-19-2013, 01:49 PM
Mandate that all single E4s and below stay in the dorms. This would literally save around $100M a year AF-wide

I doubt it. In fact, I think this is actually COSTING the military more than anything else. I've heard it been said that it costs the military more money to build and maintain barracks/dorms than it does to simply give them all single BAH. Not sure how true that is, but...

Military personnel tend to marry much earlier than their civilian counterparts. The requirement to live in dorms/barracks when single contributes. I'm not going to necessarily fault people for getting married for that purpose... because there's a lot more psychological mumbo jumbo behind living in the dorms/barracks. The main thing being that one never feels like they're truly "at home" in the dorms/barracks. The people who live there are just one door-knock away from being put on a detail when they're relaxing off-duty. There's also the constant inspections, etc, etc.

Being married also provides the sense of stability in one's life, that military life tends to take away from.

So why does this matter? Since so many of these junior personnel are going to get married anyway, you're now going to have to give them BAH with dependants AND give Tricare to the new spouse and any resulting children.

...all this, when you simply could have given them single BAH.

BOSS302
08-19-2013, 06:16 PM
I doubt it. In fact, I think this is actually COSTING the military more than anything else. I've heard it been said that it costs the military more money to build and maintain barracks/dorms than it does to simply give them all single BAH. Not sure how true that is, but...



It's very true. Dormitories cost millions to initially build. CES and Contracting of course go with the lowest bidder, which equals shittiest builder. The dormitories are not metered for payment thus the airmen are not held accountable for the energy they use. And we all know how the dorms become someone's pet project when they are gunning for a feather in their cap and a sweet EPR bullet.

"Led/executed install of $25k entertainment lounge; 6 Xboxes/4 TVs/WiFi emplaced--improved QoL for +200 prsl"

The bullet should actually read....

"Wast'd/destroy'd $25k taxpayer funds; items easily found at comm center/prsnl qrtrs--demote to neg pay grade now!"

However I believe the dormitories provide something for brand new airmen that cannot be measured in terms of $$$, and that is something up for debate in another thread.

ThaBufe
08-19-2013, 08:15 PM
I think it's most of the little things that could be cut. They all seem really small but they add up.

One example would be LCD TVs in hallways. We have two that were just installed in the building I work in. You know what's on them? Most of the time it's the damn Windows login screen. When it's not that it's some stupid power-point presentation that was already sent to everybody's personal inbox, most likely more than once. They even put them in nice aluminum display cases that I'm sure cost a pretty penny. In a building down the street they installed a 42" touchscreen in the lobby. The idea was to use it for a building directory and they purchased it BEFORE finding out that it's an OPSEC violation. Now it's just there on the wall with power-point slides on it. Add all the crap up across the DoD and you would find quite a bit of cash.

Another thing is PC tech refresh. I like a new PC just as much as the next guy but do we really need a new PC just because the one we have is out of warrantee? I say keep enough on hand to replace 20% (just a guess) of the ones that are out of warrantee and only replace them when they actually break or are so old that they can’t comply with network policy.

I’m sure there are about a billion other little things too that simply aren’t needed.

VCO
08-19-2013, 09:37 PM
I doubt it. In fact, I think this is actually COSTING the military more than anything else. I've heard it been said that it costs the military more money to build and maintain barracks/dorms than it does to simply give them all single BAH. Not sure how true that is, but...


This is absolutely not true. After the initial cost of building a dorm -- which is sometimes shared with local governments OCONUS, maintenance and utility costs are relatively minor compared to paying BAH/OHA/COLA to 200 Amn.

VCO
08-19-2013, 09:39 PM
Huh? AAFES and FSS facilities that are Non-Appropiated Funds pay utilities. They are metered and have to pay for their usage of water, electricity, and gas. I used to read their meters myself and submit the readings for eventual billing. That's why it's an issue if the meters on these buildings do not have the proper calibration; it's costing them money.

Surely you do not think Burger King, Manchu Wok, Starbucks, the Auto Hobby Shop, and others simply get a free ride, do you? That the money they take in is just pure profit??

Yes. Certain locations get a free ride. You are speaking from limited experience. Do some more research.

sharkhunter
08-19-2013, 10:16 PM
The AF is not getting what they pay you for as an employee. The AF shouldn't be paying you your PAYCHECK for this BS. Then, I have to justify to 5 people why my guys need safety equipment because the budget is so tight. The AF is not a college, go play sports on your own time, i.e take some chargeable leave. Don't even get me started if you got some sort of enlistment bonus, and take these free trips.

If you need safety equipment, then just go and justify it, plan and simple. If you're not getting the right equipment, then that's a foul on your leadership and you have other avenues to go in order to get the right equipment. We need new climbing gear because ours is over 9 years old, the safety T.O says it should be more than 4 years old. We have to justify it to 5 different people before the CC and the RAs can order it, it's just the way it goes. Don't blame the tight budget on the Airmen who are using the leave rules and guidelines that were establish to help improve morale on airmen. There are plenty of other things to complain about other than the AF leave/PTDY policy.

sharkhunter
08-19-2013, 10:19 PM
Get rid of custodial & grounds MX service contracts.

Didn't the AF already start doing this? I know all the flowers at Mildenhall were uprooted to say costs

UH1FE
08-20-2013, 02:14 AM
They quit mowing around our building. I asked leadership for a lawn mower and weed eater so we could clean it up and was denied. So instead we have bugs and other nasty critters coming in the building now.

jpeters
08-20-2013, 02:32 AM
Yes. Certain locations get a free ride. You are speaking from limited experience. Do some more research.

I'm in FSS and I can tell you no base I have been has any NAF agency been given a free ride. They pay their employees and their bills from the money they make. That's why there is always a push to use the club, bowling alley, golf course, or any other NAF place on base.

And question two on this link will answer your questions about AAFES. I know they are sent a bill every month as well. Wing leadership was trying to use half the building the Exchange is in because they aren't using it and it was going to be a headache to figure out what portion each association was going to pay so they said the hell with it and let them keep the whole building
http://www.shopmyexchange.com/exchangestores/faq.htm

RobotChicken
08-20-2013, 03:02 AM
"The 'Simpsons' for example including the Character 'Crusty the Clown', no taste."

RobotChicken
08-20-2013, 06:49 AM
They quit mowing around our building. I asked leadership for a lawn mower and weed eater so we could clean it up and was denied. So instead we have bugs and other nasty critters coming in the building now.

"I would have ordered a 5 gallon bucket of 'round up' to keep the weeds under control (FOD control,you would have got a bullet for it) and sprayed the heck outta anything that annoyed you!" (just RC's way of doing things to get things done; it always worked for me if the department head looked good in the end!)

BOSS302
08-20-2013, 07:50 AM
Yes. Certain locations get a free ride. You are speaking from limited experience. Do some more research.

Nice to know that you "think" you know my background.

From Acquisition.gov - "2% of AAFES' money is appropriated tax funds for AAFES' overseas operations that pays for overseas shipping, overseas utilities, military salaries, exterior repair, and military phones."

Again, if you think all OCONUS AAFES and NAF facilities just get a free ride and use the base's water, electricity, and gas at zero cost to them then I say you are mistaken. You are in Civil Engineering? If so, I would advise you to return to your 5-Level CDCs and refresh your knowledge of the basics of base infrastructure.

BOSS302
08-20-2013, 07:55 AM
I'm in FSS and I can tell you no base I have been has any NAF agency been given a free ride. They pay their employees and their bills from the money they make. That's why there is always a push to use the club, bowling alley, golf course, or any other NAF place on base.

And question two on this link will answer your questions about AAFES. I know they are sent a bill every month as well. Wing leadership was trying to use half the building the Exchange is in because they aren't using it and it was going to be a headache to figure out what portion each association was going to pay so they said the hell with it and let them keep the whole building
http://www.shopmyexchange.com/exchangestores/faq.htm

Good find. I've had to read and report the meter readings for AAFES and NAF facilities - both CONUS and OCONUS. The only difference is where the money comes from. NAF pays from profits earned regardless; AAFES will pay from earnings CONUS but has appropriated funds for OCONUS operations. At my first base, CE was responsible for ensuring that the meters were also properly calibrated (I understand now that is the facility's responsibility). Meter readings were/are a big deal, as I found out when I screwed up the spread sheet as an A1C.

There are exceptions but very few - deployed locations, a few OCONUS bases that have host-nation agreements in which utilities are provided at reduced rates or free of cost.

ThaBufe
08-20-2013, 08:41 PM
Get rid of custodial & grounds MX service contracts


I like the way Maxwell/Gunter handles this. There is a federal prison on Maxwell for non-violent criminals (rumor has it that's where Jesse Jackson, Jr. is going). The prisoners handle the vast majority of Grounds MX and custodial work. They are paid but it's very little; less than $1/hr I believe. Obviously not all bases have a federal prison on them. But I think any new construction of Fed prisons for non-violent offenses should be close to some other sort of Federal entity (military base, government buidling, etc) so the prisoners can actually repay the "debt to society".

fufu
08-20-2013, 09:29 PM
It's very true. Dormitories cost millions to initially build. CES and Contracting of course go with the lowest bidder, which equals shittiest builder. The dormitories are not metered for payment thus the airmen are not held accountable for the energy they use. And we all know how the dorms become someone's pet project when they are gunning for a feather in their cap and a sweet EPR bullet.

"Led/executed install of $25k entertainment lounge; 6 Xboxes/4 TVs/WiFi emplaced--improved QoL for +200 prsl"

The bullet should actually read....

"Wast'd/destroy'd $25k taxpayer funds; items easily found at comm center/prsnl qrtrs--demote to neg pay grade now!"

However I believe the dormitories provide something for brand new airmen that cannot be measured in terms of $$$, and that is something up for debate in another thread.

When the wing gives you $100k for dorm improvements, what are you supposed to do with it? We have a budget just like everyone else.

imported_KnuckleDragger
08-20-2013, 09:34 PM
If you need safety equipment, then just go and justify it, plan and simple. If you're not getting the right equipment, then that's a foul on your leadership and you have other avenues to go in order to get the right equipment. We need new climbing gear because ours is over 9 years old, the safety T.O says it should be more than 4 years old. We have to justify it to 5 different people before the CC and the RAs can order it, it's just the way it goes. Don't blame the tight budget on the Airmen who are using the leave rules and guidelines that were establish to help improve morale on airmen. There are plenty of other things to complain about other than the AF leave/PTDY policy.

What other avenues pulls money out from the thin air? Some organizations have NOTHING TO SPEND. Maybe if I was in the Band of Flight, I could get some steel toe boots and harnesses!

I complain in here about a lot of aspects in the AF. It's a good place to vent.

sharkhunter
08-20-2013, 10:14 PM
What other avenues pulls money out from the thin air? Some organizations have NOTHING TO SPEND. Maybe if I was in the Band of Flight, I could get some steel toe boots and harnesses!

I complain in here about a lot of aspects in the AF. It's a good place to vent.

If you need safety equipment, bug the hell out of your chain that you need it because its for the safety and wellbeing of your airmen. Your RAs will find money somewhere. If you still don't get the answer or the right response, tell your leadership how much of the mission is impacted, even tell them straight up "the mission cannot continue without jepordizing the safety of airmen and as I supervisor, I'm not going to put my airmen in harms way." Someone will listen to you when you say that. If your leadership still won't listen and you gave them a fair opportunity, then elevate it or go to the IG and state "the safety of airmen is in compromise."
Be prepared for lots of questions though such as "what kind of equipment is it? how often do you need it? why do you need it? are there other means of accomplishing the mission without this equipment?" standard AF questions.
For our shop, we needed fire blankets even though don't work near anything that can cause a large fire unless something really hits the fan. However, we justified it by pointing it out that it is required per the T.O.

OtisRNeedleman
08-20-2013, 10:58 PM
I like the way Maxwell/Gunter handles this. There is a federal prison on Maxwell for non-violent criminals (rumor has it that's where Jesse Jackson, Jr. is going). The prisoners handle the vast majority of Grounds MX and custodial work. They are paid but it's very little; less than $1/hr I believe. Obviously not all bases have a federal prison on them. But I think any new construction of Fed prisons for non-violent offenses should be close to some other sort of Federal entity (military base, government buidling, etc) so the prisoners can actually repay the "debt to society".

Yup. Been doing that for many years. I remember a man dressed in khaki bringing my luggage to the VOQ desk from the airport van when I attended SOS in 1985. Learned he was a prisoner.

retiredAFcivvy
08-21-2013, 01:46 AM
"I would have ordered a 5 gallon bucket of 'round up' to keep the weeds under control (FOD control,you would have got a bullet for it) and sprayed the heck outta anything that annoyed you!" (just RC's way of doing things to get things done; it always worked for me if the department head looked good in the end!)

Well, probably, until Bio and the DNR heard about it.

retiredAFcivvy
08-21-2013, 01:59 AM
It's very true. Dormitories cost millions to initially build. CES and Contracting of course go with the lowest bidder, which equals shittiest builder. The dormitories are not metered for payment thus the airmen are not held accountable for the energy they use. And we all know how the dorms become someone's pet project when they are gunning for a feather in their cap and a sweet EPR bullet.

"Led/executed install of $25k entertainment lounge; 6 Xboxes/4 TVs/WiFi emplaced--improved QoL for +200 prsl"

The bullet should actually read....

"Wast'd/destroy'd $25k taxpayer funds; items easily found at comm center/prsnl qrtrs--demote to neg pay grade now!"

However I believe the dormitories provide something for brand new airmen that cannot be measured in terms of $$$, and that is something up for debate in another thread.

Actually contracting has really gotten away from low bid and gone best value. As to dorm builds that is generally done by the Corps of Engineers. Of course that is still DOD funding.