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Hoo-huh???
08-15-2013, 08:20 AM
Just had a Wing CC call. We were briefed that by next testing cycle there will be boards for TSgts testing for MSgt. Has anyone else been briefed this?

CJSmith
08-15-2013, 09:15 AM
Yep.

Here
http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1581449-AF-MSgt-Boards

and

Here
http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1593074-TSgts-get-ready-for-the-board

zeke7142003
08-15-2013, 12:56 PM
What about minimum scores as a start. I knew guys that made MSgt by hanging around long enough. What if it was like the PT test where you had to achieve a certain score on each component or you fail. For example, you need at least a 50 on the PFE portion of the test, and the same for the job knowledge. If you can not score at least a 50 on your job knowledge portion of the test by

zeke7142003
08-15-2013, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=zeke7142003;646919]What about minimum scores as a start. I knew guys that made MSgt by hanging around long enough. What if it was like the PT test where you had to achieve a certain score on each component or you fail. For example, you need at least a 50 on the PFE portion of the test, and the same for the job knowledge. If you can not score at least a 50 on your job knowledge portion of the test by the time you test for MSgt, you do not know your job.

imported_DannyJ
08-15-2013, 01:27 PM
Consider me unphased. I just don't see the feasibility on this considering the number of folks promotable. That's a lot of friggin records to be lookin at.

tiredretiredE7
08-15-2013, 02:39 PM
Consider me unphased. I just don't see the feasibility on this considering the number of folks promotable. That's a lot of friggin records to be lookin at.

The AF needs to gainfully employ all of the deadweight SMSgts/CMSgts/LtCols/Cols who will be loosing HQ jobs under the pending realignment. Local boards like the Army does for junior soldiers could easily be implemented as long as there is a standardized scoring system. Imagine if SSgts/TSgts were scored on actual duty performance and not volunteer activities completed during the duty day. There would be an uproar across the entire AF.

Pullinteeth
08-15-2013, 03:08 PM
The AF needs to gainfully employ all of the deadweight SMSgts/CMSgts/LtCols/Cols who will be loosing HQ jobs under the pending realignment. Local boards like the Army does for junior soldiers could easily be implemented as long as there is a standardized scoring system. Imagine if SSgts/TSgts were scored on actual duty performance and not volunteer activities completed during the duty day. There would be an uproar across the entire AF.

Dont' worry, they will create three or four GO slots to supervise the whole thing...maybe they will even somehow label 'em as "Joint" so they don't count against their ceiling...

20+Years
08-15-2013, 03:08 PM
What I don't like is that there has been no publicity to those eligible of what will raise or lower thier score. We are going to see where a TSgt that hadn't completed course 14 by the board cut-off date "should have known". They need to release a list asap of PECODs and the items that might raise/lower a score.

"We will hold promotion boards for TSgt/MSgt. We will let you know after the board what you should have focused on. That is all."

euripedes
08-15-2013, 03:20 PM
Should be interesting. A lot of TSgt's who might think they're on fire will get some humble pie when that board score comes back. A lot of MSgt's find that out that hard way.

Anon
08-15-2013, 04:38 PM
The AF needs to gainfully employ all of the deadweight SMSgts/CMSgts/LtCols/Cols who will be loosing HQ jobs under the pending realignment. Local boards like the Army does for junior soldiers could easily be implemented as long as there is a standardized scoring system. Imagine if SSgts/TSgts were scored on actual duty performance and not volunteer activities completed during the duty day. There would be an uproar across the entire AF.

I don't get why so many people get hung up on this. Had a discussion with some NCOs last week on EPRs. One guy could not get past the issue of "having to volunteer". Finally, I pulled up an EPR and asked where on the form did it say "Volunteer". I also explained that I have NEVER kicked back EPR recommending a reconsideration of the rating due to a lack of volunteerism. For awards, I can see how it can play in a bit more, but EPR.....?

Hoo-huh???
08-15-2013, 04:52 PM
The AF needs to gainfully employ all of the deadweight SMSgts/CMSgts/LtCols/Cols who will be loosing HQ jobs under the pending realignment. Local boards like the Army does for junior soldiers could easily be implemented as long as there is a standardized scoring system. Imagine if SSgts/TSgts were scored on actual duty performance and not volunteer activities completed during the duty day. There would be an uproar across the entire AF.

We were told that the boards will focus on duty performance & the EPRs will do the same.

Juggs
08-15-2013, 06:57 PM
I hope it's an actual board and not a package submission process.

Chief_KO
08-15-2013, 10:02 PM
If there will be a MSgt promo board I'm sure it will function just like the SMSgt & CMSgt boards. If I were a TSgt (or below) I would learn about the promotion board process, there are a lot of tools out there to learn, starting with the PDG.

Silverback
08-15-2013, 11:17 PM
I was in a class last week on my base and one of the students said that this past year there was a mock board on some records just to see how it would compare and contrast against the actual results back in May. I don't know any other details like what AFSCs were chosen or how the mock boards matched up with the actual selectees. I just thought it was interesting that this even happened. It would be nice if anyone here on the forum has more info on this.

cloudFFVII
08-16-2013, 03:47 AM
In looking at the service demographics (last updated 30 June 2013), only 31% of NCO's have an associate's degree (which, in most cases, would = their CCAF):

http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp

That's going to be the bare minimum. Course 14 is also changing and I would daresay you'd be better off waiting until the new one is released, lest you end up having to do it twice (that's since been rescinded, best of my knowledge, nevertheless it wouldn't surprise me to see such a thing occur).

And yes, while it's great to say job performance will get the most evidence, like all things it will likely default to who is on the board in that cycle and what do they focus most on (Education, Deployments, Job Accomplishments, etc) just as it exists now for E-8 and E-9 for that particular cycle.

BL: The time to act if you want to advance is pushing earlier and earlier in a member's career, and I don't think that's a bad thing, honestly.

Airborne
08-16-2013, 04:52 AM
Anything from HAF A1? Im all seeing and hearing is rumors. A chief at my last base, I heard, the commandant at PME said, I read in Air Force times....etc. Ive never seen a rumor spread so thick like this one. Citation needed.

CJSmith
08-16-2013, 05:11 AM
In looking at the service demographics (last updated 30 June 2013), only 31% of NCO's have an associate's degree (which, in most cases, would = their CCAF):

http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp

That's going to be the bare minimum. Course 14 is also changing and I would daresay you'd be better off waiting until the new one is released, lest you end up having to do it twice (that's since been rescinded, best of my knowledge, nevertheless it wouldn't surprise me to see such a thing occur).

Stat matches THRMIS. 31 July 2013

Question for everyone... Do you think you would fare better with a board process or the old fashioned way?

http://i.imgur.com/pM81luF.jpg

Class5Kayaker
08-16-2013, 03:35 PM
Two SrA with PHDs????? My only guess is they are non-US citizens in the AF in order to speed up the citizenship process. Same can probably be said for the SrAs and below with Masters degrees. There might be an outlier or two that decided to join strictly in order to serve their country.

sandsjames
08-16-2013, 03:54 PM
Let's be honest. These board scores will NOT focus on duty performance because the duty performance, on the EPR, is way too subjective. It will focus on the hard stats and we all know what those are.

imported_AFKILO7
08-16-2013, 08:54 PM
I met one of them here at Lackland. She is in the band, she has a PhD in something "musical"

Class5Kayaker
08-16-2013, 09:03 PM
I met one of them here at Lackland. She is in the band, she has a PhD in something "musical"

I thought the band geeks with PHD's/Master's started out as TSgts.

Airborne
08-17-2013, 12:37 AM
Can anyone post a message from A1 about this? No? Oh ok.

imported_AFKILO7
08-17-2013, 04:30 AM
I thought the band geeks with PHD's/Master's started out as TSgts.

I thought so too, but sure as the day is long...

Senior AMMO
08-17-2013, 10:08 AM
If they are going to do a MSgt board, might as well do it as the SMSgt and CMSgt board. The wheel is round no need to try and reinvent it!

UH1FE
08-17-2013, 02:45 PM
Sounds like PT is no longer going to be a force shaping tool so they have to come up with another way to usher people out the door.

IYAAYAS
08-18-2013, 10:44 PM
This was briefed at Wing stand ups all around the AF. If this rumor wasn't hard enough to control before, now it is impossible. Without proof, it makes people question their leadership. Pretty reckless.

DWWSWWD
08-19-2013, 01:35 PM
Not going to happen. Not enough discriminators in a TSgt EPR and no will to push CCAF/SNCOA to E-6 level.

Hoo-huh???
08-19-2013, 06:34 PM
Not going to happen. Not enough discriminators in a TSgt EPR and no will to push CCAF/SNCOA to E-6 level.

Uh, ok. If you say so & do not believe a Brigadier General is a credible enough source...

20+Years
08-20-2013, 08:34 PM
I see two sides to this coin.

One thing a board will do to the MSgt level is drive an even bigger wedge in-between those with fives and fours. Someone already gets an advantage in points based on EPR scores alone. Now the 5 will get a higher board score too. Getting a 4 on an ERP will now cause even bigger ass pain at promotion time. This highlights yet again the problem with some raters inflating and some not. The truthful rater screws thier troop.

The other side I see is the board will now have to deal with the inflation. Do they automatically score someone lower for 5s with markdowns than firewalls, or will they have to compare level of position, duties, ect? You know as a MSgt going up for SMSgt what a markdown will/can do. Will it be the same?

My thought... if boards get pushed down to TSgt, combined with the new HYTs... there will be a lot of people who screw up in thier first enlistment that will not/cannot recover to make it past SSgt. Intentional??? Hmmm....

waveshaper2
08-20-2013, 09:46 PM
The Air Force is going the wrong way again. We would be better served by only having one board and that would be for CMSgt.

Silverback
08-20-2013, 10:32 PM
I see two sides to this coin.

One thing a board will do to the MSgt level is drive an even bigger wedge in-between those with fives and fours. Someone already gets an advantage in points based on EPR scores alone. Now the 5 will get a higher board score too. Getting a 4 on an ERP will now cause even bigger ass pain at promotion time. This highlights yet again the problem with some raters inflating and some not. The truthful rater screws thier troop.

The other side I see is the board will now have to deal with the inflation. Do they automatically score someone lower for 5s with markdowns than firewalls, or will they have to compare level of position, duties, ect? You know as a MSgt going up for SMSgt what a markdown will/can do. Will it be the same?

My thought... if boards get pushed down to TSgt, combined with the new HYTs... there will be a lot of people who screw up in thier first enlistment that will not/cannot recover to make it past SSgt. Intentional??? Hmmm....

It will add a whole lot of discriminators also. Those who have completed their CCAF degree and Course 14 will be in one pile while those who have not will be in another. It seems to be too coincidental that Course 14 is now available at the TSgt level.

My biggest concern is that if MSgt boards becomes a reality, then you are going to have all these TSgts trying to stand out for that promotion. This means that TSgts will be at all of these save the world bake sales and things of that nature. Personally, I think the current system is fine. MSgt is the first taste of the SNCO tier. If a MSgt does not have what it takes to progress any further then they will stay a MSgt.

Mastercone
08-21-2013, 01:50 AM
Up until now, a member could surpass the perils of less than perfect EPRs (135 points max for promotion consideration) and a lack of decorations (25 points maximum) or a lack of Time in Grade or Time in Service by studying hard for the 200 points they do control via the PFE & SKT tests(or whatever they call them now) which made up more than half of your weighted score for promotion to E-7. But once you throw the board score into the mix, it all but dooms anyone with a less than 5 EPR in the past 6 years(which I believe has been the suggested cut off for consideration of EPRs.

One need only look at the board score and realize that it counts for 450 points of your total weighted score which easily overwhelms your scores on the PFE & SKT. I was able to find promotion cycle averages for the E-8 selectees announced in February and the average EPR score AF wide was a perfect 135 points. It has been this way for decades on promotions to to E-8 and E-9. In the past thirty years, I have seen an occasional belch where the average selectee EPR score to E-9 was 134.99 and the average EPR score to E-8 once was 134.98. But overall, the scores are practically perfect which means that if you have one less than stellar EPR in your folder for the selection board, then you will likely hover with the board score average of non-selectees of around 270 points or less.

At that rate, a member with perfect EPRs who colors in all of the A's on his test sheet can easily outscore someone who has perfect SKT & PFE scores but one 4 EPR. In other words, the lethality of the board score isn't one to be underestimated.

Over the years, the AF has had the slowest promotion system of all of the services. This will make it that much worse. If you have access to MPC promotion statistics, look through them and see for yourself. For E-8 & E-9, it's a safe bet that folders with less than perfect EPR scores are jettisoned for consideration and there's no doubt the same won't be done for the E-7 boards. There will probably be other factors to aid in whittling down the number of folders to make it manageable for the board.

By the time they are through implementing this process, most will wish they went back to the days before WAPS testing where it was nothing more than an AF wide STEP promotion system.

....Other score averages included 135.00 for enlisted performance reports....
E-8 promotion list -- FEB 2013
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123338181

ffdan
08-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Why is everyone so caught up on Course 14 being a requirement/box checked for this board? Most of the first time eligibles would not have this completed if the testing cycle and Course 14 enrollment 2 yr TIG requirement stay as they are now. Maybe the new Course 14 will be available sooner than 2 yrs TIG...Maybe later I'll fly on a dog like in The Neverending Story

20+Years
08-21-2013, 02:10 PM
Why is everyone so caught up on Course 14 being a requirement/box checked for this board? Most of the first time eligibles would not have this completed if the testing cycle and Course 14 enrollment 2 yr TIG requirement stay as they are now. Maybe the new Course 14 will be available sooner than 2 yrs TIG...Maybe later I'll fly on a dog like in The Neverending Story

Hmmm. If Course 14 requires 2 years in grade, and then becomes a discriminator, it will be the older TIG TSgts getting promoted to E-7 instead of first cycle professional testers. Might add an extra year of being a TSgt in there for some people. It would be crazy if the AF made someone mature into a rank before promoting them into the next one.

imported_DannyJ
08-22-2013, 03:33 AM
Hmmm. If Course 14 requires 2 years in grade, and then becomes a discriminator, it will be the older TIG TSgts getting promoted to E-7 instead of first cycle professional testers. Might add an extra year of being a TSgt in there for some people. It would be crazy if the AF made someone mature into a rank before promoting them into the next one.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

WX Vortex
08-22-2013, 07:56 AM
We need to concentrate on a viable budget. Not adding additional requirements for promotions. Where's our priorities list?

YesIam
08-22-2013, 09:12 AM
Why is everyone so caught up on Course 14 being a requirement/box checked for this board? Most of the first time eligibles would not have this completed if the testing cycle and Course 14 enrollment 2 yr TIG requirement stay as they are now. Maybe the new Course 14 will be available sooner than 2 yrs TIG...Maybe later I'll fly on a dog like in The Neverending Story

Not to mention you have to attend NCOA to be eligible to take Course 14.

Smeghead
08-22-2013, 02:56 PM
There's no 2 years TIG requirement for Course 14. I enrolled right after NCOA with 17 mos TIG.

JC1982
08-22-2013, 03:00 PM
Greetings everyone. I need a lot of help. I have a question - is it possible to get a 2 on your EPR without having done anything wrong? My supervisor threatened me today and said that I could get a 2 on my EPR. The thing is I am currently under a medical board. I cannot perform in my AFSC because of a "cognitive disorder". However, I have not received any paperwork throughout this year. It seems the military is doing their best to push me out. I plan on going to the IG and putting up a complaint against my entire unit. What do you think?

Smeghead
08-22-2013, 03:04 PM
Greetings everyone. I need a lot of help. I have a question - is it possible to get a 2 on your EPR without having done anything wrong? My supervisor threatened me today and said that I could get a 2 on my EPR. The thing is I am currently under a medical board. I cannot perform in my AFSC because of a "cognitive disorder". However, I have not received any paperwork throughout this year. It seems the military is doing their best to push me out. I plan on going to the IG and putting up a complaint against my entire unit. What do you think?

Um, what does this have to do with MSgt boards?

BOSS302
08-22-2013, 03:05 PM
Greetings everyone. I need a lot of help. I have a question - is it possible to get a 2 on your EPR without having done anything wrong? My supervisor threatened me today and said that I could get a 2 on my EPR. The thing is I am currently under a medical board. I cannot perform in my AFSC because of a "cognitive disorder". However, I have not received any paperwork throughout this year. It seems the military is doing their best to push me out. I plan on going to the IG and putting up a complaint against my entire unit. What do you think?

http://launchoutdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/deep-sea-fishing1.jpg

JC1982
08-22-2013, 03:28 PM
I'm a new member and I cannot start my own forum. I can only reply to posts and wanted to message an active topic.

JC1982
08-22-2013, 03:30 PM
If the site would allow me to post my own topic, I wouldn't have to "invade" into a different subject.

20+Years
08-22-2013, 03:33 PM
I will create you a thread. This should be interesting.

20+Years
08-22-2013, 03:35 PM
And back to topic, can anyone verify current requirements for Course 14? I am hearing, none, 2 years TIG, NCOA...

Class5Kayaker
08-22-2013, 03:58 PM
I will create you a thread. This should be interesting.

New thread located HERE (http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1596654-2-EPR!!!).

Who says we need mods? (lol....just saying that in jest, please don't ban me!)

:focus

mikezulu1
08-22-2013, 08:26 PM
And back to topic, can anyone verify current requirements for Course 14? I am hearing, none, 2 years TIG, NCOA...

A little dated (2010) but AFI36-2301 page 49Table 9. EPME Non-resident/DL Eligibility Criteria. states TSgt must have 2yrs TIG and NCOA to enroll in AFSNCOA DL course.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2301/afi36-2301.pdf

Class5Kayaker
08-22-2013, 08:35 PM
A little dated (2010) but AFI36-2301 page 49Table 9. EPME Non-resident/DL Eligibility Criteria. states TSgt must have 2yrs TIG and NCOA to enroll in AFSNCOA DL course.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2301/afi36-2301.pdf

Hell that's pretty current when it comes to AF Instrutions, etc. especially when it comes to the 36 series. A quick check of the pubs site shows a TON of 36 series AFIs that were last updated in 1994, which, by the way, it the year they changed everything from AFRs to AFIs, so it's likely their content goes back to the 80's or eaarlier and nothing was actually changed in 94.

Comrade
08-22-2013, 11:49 PM
A little dated (2010) but AFI36-2301 page 49Table 9. EPME Non-resident/DL Eligibility Criteria. states TSgt must have 2yrs TIG and NCOA to enroll in AFSNCOA DL course.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2301/afi36-2301.pdf

The same requirements are also in Air University's course catalog for the 2012-2013 academic year.

Smeghead
08-23-2013, 02:16 AM
A little dated (2010) but AFI36-2301 page 49Table 9. EPME Non-resident/DL Eligibility Criteria. states TSgt must have 2yrs TIG and NCOA to enroll in AFSNCOA DL course.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2301/afi36-2301.pdf

Guess nobody reads it then, because they let me enroll. We were told at NCOA (Lackland) that we were eligible upon graduation.

akruse
08-23-2013, 02:44 AM
Guess nobody reads it then, because they let me enroll. We were told at NCOA (Lackland) that we were eligible upon graduation.

It all depends on who is at your education center. I've had TSgts that just pinned on enroll and complete.

Jumper5
08-23-2013, 03:46 AM
It all depends on who is at your education center. I've had TSgts that just pinned on enroll and complete.

Yep. I am seeing a fair number of TSgts do the same. It seems like there are some education centers that don't bother reading the rules.

CJSmith
08-23-2013, 05:02 AM
It all depends on who is at your education center. I've had TSgts that just pinned on enroll and complete.

Occifers pin on. E's sew on.... I know, tomato, tomata.


Yep. I am seeing a fair number of TSgts do the same. It seems like there are some education centers that don't bother reading the rules.

I completed NCOA in circa 2011 and all the instructors told us to sign up for Course 14 as soon as we were done with the academy. Our Ed Center had no problem signing us up right after graduating. The only time I've heard the two year rule for TSgts was with SEJPME.

sharkhunter
08-23-2013, 11:24 PM
The MSgt Board just got briefed today at our maintenance meeting.
One thing the briefer mention was TSgts will now have a stratification line in their EPR. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, a strat line is good, but not having one shouldn't automatically mean you will not be promoted, right? I mean I understand the board score weights a lot in the promotion process, but can a really good PDG/SKT score can offset a low board score?

imported_AFKILO7
08-23-2013, 11:27 PM
I asked my Shirt if the Command Chief or AETC CC had mentioned anything about this particular topic...his reply was that this is nothing more than a rumor and that was it.

Mastercone
08-24-2013, 07:43 AM
The maximum board score for E8/E9 is 450 points. The maximum possible PDG/SKT is 200 points. Under the E8/E9 scheme, the board score is worth more than half of your overall score total. The lone difference under WAPS is that there is only one test for E8/E9 and that would be the PDG. As I recall, 3 board members, one colonel and two chiefs, score the folders between 1 and 10. If the difference between the three scores is beyond a certain significance, it is scored again. Once the scoring is completed, the 3 individual scores are totaled for a max possible of 30 points which is multiplied by 15 for maximum possible score of 450. This is your board score.

To answer your question, the board score will easily outweigh the rest of the WAPS factors which is significant because many do not make senior or chief and it's always the board score that does them in. Take a look at my previous post in this thread on the lethality of the board scores for promotion.

Look at the more recent promotion stats via AFPC and look at the difference between the average board score for selectees and the average board score for non-selectees. The difference can be close to 200 points.

The bottom line is that you really do not want a board score linked into the promotion system unless you are the squadron brown noser who also happened to get STEP promoted to E5, E6, & E7, etc. Trust me, they're out there.

You can Google online WAPS calculator and input your data to see how you might fare.

imported_DannyJ
08-24-2013, 12:35 PM
The MSgt Board just got briefed today at our maintenance meeting.
One thing the briefer mention was TSgts will now have a stratification line in their EPR. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, a strat line is good, but not having one shouldn't automatically mean you will not be promoted, right? I mean I understand the board score weights a lot in the promotion process, but can a really good PDG/SKT score can offset a low board score?

So instead of a TSgt focusing on the technical part of his or her career field, we're going to have MORE people chasing the next stripe than we do now. Fantastic idea. What a fuggin waste of time and resources this is gonna be.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-24-2013, 02:09 PM
Man, I feel for you guys. So much bullshit to put up with and hoops to jump through just to get promoted to a rank that pays less than an 0-3 with 4 years in service. So, so glad I switched over and retired as an 0-4.

I say no to MSgt boards and yes to at least a $1,000 per month pay raise for each promo to E-8 and E-9.

Silverback
08-24-2013, 02:31 PM
Man, I feel for you guys. So much bullshit to put up with and hoops to jump through just to get promoted to a rank that pays less than an 0-3 with 4 years in service. So, so glad I switched over and retired as an 0-4.

I say no to MSgt boards and yes to at least a $1,000 per month pay raise for each promo to E-8 and E-9.

It's only going to get worse. As people continue to step up their game. Big blue will find a way to cut people or make them reach HYT.....I like the pay raise idea though E8 and E9.

imnohero
08-24-2013, 02:38 PM
As people continue to step up their game. Big blue will find a way to cut people or make them reach HYT.....I like the pay raise idea though E8 and E9.

Umm, isn't that what the cutoff score is for? To only promote the number of people AF needs promoted?

Maybe Big Blue realized that EPRs, TIS and Test scores are not a good way to select management.
Maybe the Chiefs group wants a board so they can control who gets promoted, so they can pick people they like, instead of who deserves it or would be a good choice. :mischievous: :shhh:

zeke7142003
08-25-2013, 09:57 PM
I mentioned earlier about having a minimum score on the SKT and PFE for promotion to MSgt. I knew too many guys that did not no jack about their job or the AF but got promoted from just sticking around and collecting the TIG/TIS points. If you can't score above a 50 on each test there is something wrong, especially by the time you are testing for E-7. It was embarrassing that these guys held the rank and were totally useless, often getting pushed into a job with no responsibility and milking it, waiting for their HYT.

bcoco14
08-26-2013, 04:24 AM
I mentioned earlier about having a minimum score on the SKT and PFE for promotion to MSgt. I knew too many guys that did not no jack about their job or the AF but got promoted from just sticking around and collecting the TIG/TIS points. If you can't score above a 50 on each test there is something wrong, especially by the time you are testing for E-7. It was embarrassing that these guys held the rank and were totally useless, often getting pushed into a job with no responsibility and milking it, waiting for their HYT.

1. The more I think about this I don't see MSgt boards becoming reality. Talk to me when Something official comes out at this point it is all speculation.

2. Your promotion idea shows you don't understand the promotion system at all. If 100 people need to be promoted and out of all eligibles only 20 score above a 50, how do you suggest we fill the other 80 slots?

zeke7142003
08-26-2013, 10:20 AM
I did not think of that. I do understand the promotion system and I like it 1000x better than the one we have out here in the civilian world. I work with a guy who I outranked in the AF working the same job right now as a civilian. He was one of those guys that had to wait until he got enough TIS/TIG points to get promoted because he can't remember basic 5-level material because his ego is too big to allow him to use books because "he knows it all". Now, in the civilian side he will get promoted before me because he is an ass kisser extraordinaire, really lives up the boss' butt........it's really shameful how someone can lose all dignity like that.

CJSmith
08-26-2013, 02:21 PM
I did not think of that. I do understand the promotion system and I like it 1000x better than the one we have out here in the civilian world. I work with a guy who I outranked in the AF working the same job right now as a civilian. He was one of those guys that had to wait until he got enough TIS/TIG points to get promoted because he can't remember basic 5-level material because his ego is too big to allow him to use books because "he knows it all". Now, in the civilian side he will get promoted before me because he is an ass kisser extraordinaire, really lives up the boss' butt........it's really shameful how someone can lose all dignity like that.

There are also many career fields that get tested on crap they have NEVER worked with before. I finally made the next rank this last cycle, do you think any of that crap they tested me on I work with day to day? Nope, probably less than 5% of it I deal with.

efmbman
08-26-2013, 02:32 PM
If 100 people need to be promoted and out of all eligibles only 20 score above a 50, how do you suggest we fill the other 80 slots?

That is an interesting question, one I asked many times during my 22 years in uniform. Should the need to fill a vacancy be a requirement for promotion? I'm sure that having someone that is the "least unqualified of the unqualified" promoted is in the best interest of any organization. It sends a bad message to those junior in rank that as long as you are breathing, and hang around long enough, you will eventually get promoted. Differing points of view are welcome.

zeke7142003
08-26-2013, 09:49 PM
The airmen can see this for sure. I always referred to it as welfare, they were getting paid for no productive effort. When you have to create jobs for them then what's the point of promoting?

bcoco14
08-27-2013, 03:41 AM
That is an interesting question, one I asked many times during my 22 years in uniform. Should the need to fill a vacancy be a requirement for promotion? I'm sure that having someone that is the "least unqualified of the unqualified" promoted is in the best interest of any organization. It sends a bad message to those junior in rank that as long as you are breathing, and hang around long enough, you will eventually get promoted. Differing points of view are welcome.

Bad message or not that is reality. We don't have the option of hiring from outside the organization like a private company could do if faced with a promotion. Therefore seeing as how you HAVE to fill the promotion requirement of 100 you then end up promoting 80 people that might not have made the cut otherwise. So for the sake of argument lets say we only promote the 20. Now you have a year for those positions are going to be unmanned and let us say that the next year promotion is another 100. It now becomes 180 because you had 80 unfilled last year. As the previous year only 20 made the required 50's. Now over a 2 year span you have 160 positions unfilled. This turns into a large snowball effect that would have to be corrected at some point.

efmbman
08-27-2013, 12:04 PM
Bad message or not that is reality. We don't have the option of hiring from outside the organization like a private company could do if faced with a promotion. Therefore seeing as how you HAVE to fill the promotion requirement of 100 you then end up promoting 80 people that might not have made the cut otherwise. So for the sake of argument lets say we only promote the 20. Now you have a year for those positions are going to be unmanned and let us say that the next year promotion is another 100. It now becomes 180 because you had 80 unfilled last year. As the previous year only 20 made the required 50's. Now over a 2 year span you have 160 positions unfilled. This turns into a large snowball effect that would have to be corrected at some point.

I do understand the ramifications - the Army has a similar system with board scores added to PT, awards, education, etc. All eligible for consideration are evaluated by the board and ranked. Human Resources Command determines how many in each specialty will be "required". If the number is 55, then numbers 1 - 55 are given a promotion sequence number. In both systems, it does not result in the best being promoted to positions of responsibility... it guarantees that only best of those available at the time are promoted. I know this sounds like semantics... Establish a standard of what is required to make E8. If no one achieves that standard should anyone be promoted? At each professional military education course, there is an academic standard. If no one achieves that standard, would the school simply shrug and "graduate" the top 5 or 10 or would the entire class fail?

I think I read somewhere that the Army is finally dusting off the QMP/Retention process. When the promotion board meets, they will have the additional task of identifying NCOs that should be denied continued service. This is not the same as a non-select. However, I feel that for E7 - E9 if an NCO is non-selected twice, QMP is automatic. There is obviously something in the record that prevents a two time non-select from being a select, so thin the herd.

I just don't think that lowering the standards (if such standards exist) is the answer. Someone will excel, and those are the people that should be rewarded. This is all hypothetical based on the post that suggested a minimum score. That led me to believe that there is no minimum score required at this time.

It sounds very similar to the waist measurement fiasco. It seemed that the USAF was resigned to the fact that too many otherwise healthy male troops could not keep their AC under 39", so the standard of 39" must be changed. Makes me wonder what a critical mass of troops could also get changed if enough of them did not meet another standard. Would pilot qualification be changed in order to keep a specific number of planes in the air?

Sorry for the long post.

Silverback
09-09-2013, 08:45 PM
I just saw on the Air Force Times home page that it looks like MSgt boards is going to become a reality. Good luck to all the TSgts that this is going to affect.

technomage1
09-09-2013, 09:47 PM
Like we don't have enough cronyism in the force as it is?

mikezulu1
09-09-2013, 09:49 PM
So is it "officially official"? Or still somebodies, friends uncles sister heard at a commanders call.

Chief_KO
09-09-2013, 10:19 PM
The article says "may" have to meet a board.

BOSS302
09-10-2013, 08:19 AM
So is it "officially official"? Or still somebodies, friends uncles sister heard at a commanders call.

Since the Air Force Times is running a story that it "may" happen, it's about as official as an A1C's legal advice in the dorms.


Like we don't have enough cronyism in the force as it is?

I sometimes feel like the Air Force is full of William "Boss" Tweeds squaring off against Al Sharptons.

Chief_KO
09-10-2013, 10:20 PM
Was discussed at the AFSA PAC (Professional Airman Conference). It is being looked at. Logistically may be impossible...the shear number of packages/board members/costs might make it a no-go.

CJSmith
09-11-2013, 03:55 AM
It was briefed by our Command Chief it is a high possibility, however he chose his words very carefully as to not perpetuate the rumor. All in all it makes sense to promote via board to gain a roof on your house but as Chief_KO stated, logistically it will be a nightmare.

LogDog
09-11-2013, 05:09 AM
With the budget cuts the military is undergoing it would seem a silly waste of money to send people TDY to sit on a MSgt Promotion Board.

The question concerning the board is would it do a better job of selecting people for MSgt than the present system?

CJSmith
09-11-2013, 05:17 AM
With the budget cuts the military is undergoing it would seem a silly waste of money to send people TDY to sit on a MSgt Promotion Board.

The question concerning the board is would it do a better job of selecting people for MSgt than the present system?

"They" are saying yes it will do a better job. Apparently this last round, a percentage of us would not have made it under a board. Then again, isn't there always a percentage that shouldn't get promoted yet find a way?

LogDog
09-11-2013, 05:29 AM
"They" are saying yes it will do a better job.
As others have said the problem will be inflation creep in the EPRs. "They" see one problem solved and but compound another problem.



Apparently this last round, a percentage of us would not have made it under a board. Then again, isn't there always a percentage that shouldn't get promoted yet find a way?
There will always be a percentage of people who wouldn't have made it under a board and a percentage who shouldn't have made it. For the most part, the current system works fairly well and for E-7s and lower it makes it more visible and understandable. No promotion system is perfect and you hope the system you're under works the way it should; by promoting those who deserve promotion.

AERYCK13
09-11-2013, 05:51 AM
"They" are saying yes it will do a better job. Apparently this last round, a percentage of us would not have made it under a board. Then again, isn't there always a percentage that shouldn't get promoted yet find a way?

I made it this cycle. Is there any way to find out how I did in the Mock Boards? I want to know if I would've made it with the board...

CJSmith
09-11-2013, 06:10 AM
I made it this cycle. Is there any way to find out how I did in the Mock Boards? I want to know if I would've made it with the board...

Same same. I wonder if I was one of "those"

Chief_KO
09-11-2013, 10:21 PM
I made it this cycle. Is there any way to find out how I did in the Mock Boards? I want to know if I would've made it with the board...

have you had a Chief (hopefully in your AFS) review your package to give you an assessment? I used to do it every year for my SNCOs. I would not give a score (since each panel would score differently), but would give strengths & weaknesses. A biggie was ID'ng the missing documents (EPRs or Decs). Usually 1/3 - 1/2 were missing at least one thing from ARMS/PRADA.

LogDog
09-12-2013, 05:59 AM
have you had a Chief (hopefully in your AFS) review your package to give you an assessment? I used to do it every year for my SNCOs. I would not give a score (since each panel would score differently), but would give strengths & weaknesses. A biggie was ID'ng the missing documents (EPRs or Decs). Usually 1/3 - 1/2 were missing at least one thing from ARMS/PRADA.
I worked for the senior Chief (he made Chief in minimum time) in our career field when I was a MSgt. He couldn't understand why I wasn't chosen for SMSgt. He said he has sat on the promotion boards before and now he can't figure out what they're looking for. I got promoted the next year mainly because I deployed to Croatia during the Balkans Crisis in 1996 and PCS'd in early 1996 so the deployment was in my EPR when I PCS'd.

BRUWIN
09-13-2013, 12:33 PM
Greetings everyone. I need a lot of help. I have a question - is it possible to get a 2 on your EPR without having done anything wrong? My supervisor threatened me today and said that I could get a 2 on my EPR. The thing is I am currently under a medical board. I cannot perform in my AFSC because of a "cognitive disorder". However, I have not received any paperwork throughout this year. It seems the military is doing their best to push me out. I plan on going to the IG and putting up a complaint against my entire unit. What do you think?

I too have cognitive disorders. They are mainly mental health disorders that primarily affect my learning, memory, perception, and problem solving, and include amnesia, dementia, and delirium. In other words...I am completely whacked. However, I still never got a 2 EPR. You gotta earn those puppies.

RetC141BFCC
09-14-2013, 02:45 PM
I too have cognitive disorders. They are mainly mental health disorders that primarily affect my learning, memory, perception, and problem solving, and include amnesia, dementia, and delirium. In other words...I am completely whacked. However, I still never got a 2 EPR. You gotta earn those puppies.

I did earn a 7 APR back when I was a airman best thing thast ever happened to me. Got my head out of my ass after that and wound up with a great AF Career

BRUWIN
09-14-2013, 02:56 PM
I did earn a 7 APR back when I was a airman best thing thast ever happened to me. Got my head out of my ass after that and wound up with a great AF Career

My first supervisor tried a 7 on my second APR but they sent it back and I got an 8 in the end. I was ok with a 7...thought I deserved it for everything that happened. But they gave me an 8 and I eventually turned things around.

BISSBOSS
09-16-2013, 02:12 PM
Quote Originally Posted by BRUWIN View Post
I too have cognitive disorders. They are mainly mental health disorders that primarily affect my learning, memory, perception, and problem solving, and include amnesia, dementia, and delirium. In other words...I am completely whacked. However, I still never got a 2 EPR. You gotta earn those puppies.


I did earn a 7 APR back when I was a airman best thing thast ever happened to me. Got my head out of my ass after that and wound up with a great AF Career


I too earned a less than "9" APR as an Airman and was even a member of the USAF Article 15 Club... I had a GREAT career and the AF STILL let me play with Nukes!

IMHO - The MSgt Promotion board concept is MUCH like the V-22 Osprey... Sounds great, looks good on paper but has a LOT of moving parts to worry about. The current leadership in the Air Force will implement it in the same manner that they have executed stratifications, mentoring, decorations and retirement ceremonies.

Just sayin'

-BB-