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SgtS
08-10-2013, 10:36 AM
Well, if you were one of the proactive folks, and have already completed version 5 of the Course 14, chances are it isn't going to matter:


"In addition, because of the significant differences between versions, senior NCOs scheduled to attend the in-residence Air Force Senior Noncommissioned Officer Academy after April 2014 must complete version 6, as version 5 will not be accepted as a prerequisite for attending the course," said Rafferty.

You probably get to do it TWICE!

Story here:

http://www.aetc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123358886

SgtS
08-10-2013, 10:40 AM
Adding Link:

Story here: http://www.aetc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123358886

akruse
08-10-2013, 10:52 AM
You got to be shitting me.

imported_KnuckleDragger
08-10-2013, 11:34 AM
Bwahahahaha. EPIC!

Gonzo432
08-10-2013, 12:01 PM
This is August! WTF!!

CJSmith
08-10-2013, 01:33 PM
For once, not being proactive pays off! FTW!

UH1FE
08-10-2013, 05:24 PM
I swear the AF looks for ways to screw their people as much and as often as they can!

Jumper5
08-10-2013, 06:04 PM
Have any other PME courses required somebody who completed the prerequisite course to redo it because a curriculum change came out after completion?

This is dumb.

CJSmith
08-10-2013, 06:09 PM
This will generate enough buzz it will get overturned and those that completed it will most likely get grandfathered. I'd also like to know how in the hell this slipped past the AETC CCM?

Ripcord
08-10-2013, 06:26 PM
This will generate enough buzz it will get overturned and those that completed it will most likely get grandfathered. I'd also like to know how in the hell this slipped past the AETC CCM?

I don't know if it would get overturned. Something tells me this policy is intended to put people in line with the new PME format (i.e. combined learning). I'm wondering if course 14 will now be THE online part of SNCOA since the in residence course will be much shorter then it is now. I had heard down to 3 weeks from current 7 weeks. Either way I'm glad I'm headed to SNCOA in October to get it out of the way. Would have preferred a shorter course personally though. 3 weeks is just enough time for everybody in the class to start tearing out throats...

technomage1
08-10-2013, 06:52 PM
Great. So since I was in Korea, then deployed, then non-vol'd overseas and never got selected for SNCOA in the 10 minutes I've been at a home station I have to do the course twice?

Yeah. Kiss my grits and shove the in-residence course I don't want to do anyway.

Gonzo432
08-10-2013, 08:20 PM
I took course 8D&E (back in the olden times when it was on actual paper and computers were steam-powered) around 97-98. It was so out of date and nobody cared! Just check the box. I went in-residence to the SNCO Academy in 05, had no resemblance to Course 8, who cares?? This is nuts.

Airborne
08-10-2013, 08:37 PM
I think the whole course XX is stupid. Just go in residence.

Silverback
08-11-2013, 03:17 AM
What I don't get is why the big push for people to finish the current version of the course 14 before October? The AF is pretty much saying you are going to have to do it again. I will wait until October to take the latest and greatest version.

BadBender
08-11-2013, 04:58 AM
So unless someone knows they're scheduled for SNCOA before April of next year it's a waste of time, money, and resources to complete version 5 now? I wonder if someone out there can get a mark up on their EPR for saving $$ by not taking version 5 right now? Those people would be TSgts that are eligible for course 14 but with no line number or SNCOs with no class date before April.

akruse
08-11-2013, 05:25 AM
Already being pushed to be completed by next cycle for MSgt's

SgtS
08-11-2013, 05:35 AM
Very less than thrilled. I hope it does generate enough buzz for folks to pump the brakes a bit.

BRUWIN
08-11-2013, 10:01 AM
Personally...I believe that if the cirriculum change is that significant than even those that have complated version 5 should have to also do version 6. There is obviously a wealth of information in the new version that warrants having everybody know it.

On a side note...I put on a pair of my ABU pants that I wore just before I retired yesterday so I could have something to mow the lawn in. Couldn't even get the bottom button done up let along the top one.

Gonzo432
08-11-2013, 12:07 PM
Personally...I believe that if the cirriculum change is that significant than even those that have complated version 5 should have to also do version 6. There is obviously a wealth of information in the new version that warrants having everybody know it.

On a side note...I put on a pair of my ABU pants that I wore just before I retired yesterday so I could have something to mow the lawn in. Couldn't even get the bottom button done up let along the top one.

Please tell me you didn't wear them anyway.:eek2:

I 've been retired for years (I have BDU pants I can't button, not ABU), but what PME change is (or ever was) so significant that a bunch of folks should get a do-over? I suspect the press release got the date (years) wrong and they're going with it to not look stupid, which is stupid.

Chief_KO
08-11-2013, 12:33 PM
On a side note...I put on a pair of my ABU pants that I wore just before I retired yesterday so I could have something to mow the lawn in. Couldn't even get the bottom button done up let along the top one.

I like to cut my yard while wearing my IPTU...roomy enough to cover my knee braces and the gentle rustling sound really complements the sound of the mower and weedwacker.

Capt Alfredo
08-11-2013, 04:07 PM
Personally...I believe that if the cirriculum change is that significant than even those that have complated version 5 should have to also do version 6. There is obviously a wealth of information in the new version that warrants having everybody know it.

On a side note...I put on a pair of my ABU pants that I wore just before I retired yesterday so I could have something to mow the lawn in. Couldn't even get the bottom button done up let along the top one.

Can't believe the golf course would let you wear those pants while mowing the fairways.

Class5Kayaker
08-12-2013, 03:09 PM
I have email traffic from A1 stating that article/policy was sent out without clearing it through AF/A1 and that you will not have to take the new course to attend in-residence if you already took version 5. That email also stated the article had been taken down, but obviously it hasn't been.

grimreaper
08-19-2013, 08:31 PM
I have email traffic from A1 stating that article/policy was sent out without clearing it through AF/A1 and that you will not have to take the new course to attend in-residence if you already took version 5. That email also stated the article had been taken down, but obviously it hasn't been.

Anymore info on this?

Class5Kayaker
08-20-2013, 07:06 PM
Anymore info on this?

Nothing since that last email I mentioned...but I wasn't expecting anything since the email basically killed the rumor that you might have to take it twice.

grimreaper
08-20-2013, 07:18 PM
Nothing since that last email I mentioned...but I wasn't expecting anything since the email basically killed the rumor that you might have to take it twice.

Since that came out, there has been nothing official released that I've seen that states anything to the contrary. Not to mention that the story is still up.

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123358886

It's great that A1 sent out an email, but it would be nice if they let everyone know. I work at a MAJCOM HQ and everyone here is still under the assumption that people will have to do the new version.

If the MAJCOM has no clue, I imagine that it's the same at the wings.

You are literally the only person I've heard from that said the story is false. It's kind of hard trying to convince someone the story is wrong when they hear your source is some dude on the AFT Forum (LOL).

CJSmith
08-20-2013, 07:22 PM
A SMSgt select I know that will be attending SNCOA late this year was told she might have to take it. Her face belonged to the mind = blown thread.

Class5Kayaker
08-20-2013, 07:29 PM
Since that came out, there has been nothing official released that I've seen that states anything to the contrary. Not to mention that the story is still up.

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123358886

It's great that A1 sent out an email, but it would be nice if they let everyone know. I work at a MAJCOM HQ and everyone here is still under the assumption that people will have to do the new version.

You are literally the only person I've heard from that said the story is false. It's kind of hard trying to convince someone the story is wrong when they hear your source is some dude on the AFT Forum (LOL).

I'm at MAJCOM HQ as well. Here's the email (sanitized the names and some personal "how's life going" stuff from the emails):





-----Original Message-----
From: XXXX CMSgt USAF XXXX/CCC
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 10:00 AM
To: XXXX HQ Chiefs - Sr Enl Reps (Distribution List);
Subject: FW: Deadline nears for completing SNCOA course

Team,

Please see AF/A1s response to questions regarding an Article on the AF
webpage reference SNCOA correspondence course completion. BL: It is not the
intent to make SNCOs accomplish two DL courses.

MTF.

v/r

Chief XXX

XXXX Command Chief



-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXXX CMSgt USAF AFDW AF/A1DL
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 8:06 AM
To: XXXXXX CMSgt USAF XXXXX/CCC
Subject: RE: Deadline nears for completing SNCOA course

Hey, XXXX! Good to hear from you. The job is going well. In short, AU PA
published the article without any coordination with HQ AF and it has since
been removed. It is not the intent to make SNCOs accomplish two DL courses.
More will come soon. Please give me a call if you have any questions.

Thanks, XXXX

-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXX CMSgt USAF XXXXXX/CCC
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 10:23 AM
To: XXXXXX CMSgt USAF AFDW AF/A1DL
Subject: FW: Deadline nears for completing SNCOA course

Hey, XXXX! XXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

Please see the below traffic and help clarify for me. Will we double tap
folks who have completed Course 14 version 5 and then are selected for
in-residence SNCOA April 2014 and after?

Thanks,

XXXXX
v/r

Chief XXXXXX

XXXXXX Command Chief



-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXX CMSgt USAF XXXXXX/CEM
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 3:05 AM
To: XXXXXX CMSgt USAF XXXXX/CCC
Subject: Deadline nears for completing SNCOA course

I am letting folks know the fine print that even if you have completed
course 14 v5 and haven't attended SNCOA, you will more than likely have to
accomplish course 14 v6 as a prerequisite to attend (so yes twice).

I won't penalize those who have completed the original before the deadline
for SRID...agree/disagree?

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/466795/deadline-nears-for-completing-sncoa-course.aspx



If you click the link, you'll see the AF Article got taken down....apparently Maxwell didn't get the word and their re-print is still up. I'm having our Chief re-engage through our chain up to A1 to let them know about the Maxwell Article.

grimreaper
08-20-2013, 07:34 PM
I'm at MAJCOM HQ as well. Here's the email (sanitized the names and some persnal "how's life going" stuff from the emails):

Cool, guess the news is just travelling slowly. That news story certainly got everyone spun up here.

Class5Kayaker
08-20-2013, 08:32 PM
Cool, guess the news is just travelling slowly. That news story certainly got everyone spun up here.

Here's the reply from AF A1:



-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXX CMSgt USAF AFDW AF/A1DL
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:55 PM
To: XXXX CMSgt XXXXX/A7KM
Subject: RE: Deadline nears for completing SNCOA course

XXXXX,

That is the same article published on the AF site...I'll have AU remove that
one as well. The actual policy should be out in a few days concerning
Course 14...the response below still applies. Hope this helps, XXXX

-----Original Message-----
From:XXXXX CMSgt XXXX/A7KM
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:48 PM
To: XXXXX CMSgt USAF AFDW AF/A1DL
Subject: FW: Deadline nears for completing SNCOA course

Hello XXXX,

I received the email below from Bill Turner and shared it with folks to stop
the panic, but I just received the following comment:

=======================

The AF Article in the original email has been taken down, but this one from

Maxwell is still up and is causing people to worry still.

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123358886

==============

Rather than going through XXXXX, I thought I go straight to you...hope
you can touch bases with the right folks that can get the story straight.



Thanks for the help.


v/r,

XXXXXX

XXXXXX, CMSgt, USAF
Command Contracting Manager


Hopefully we'll see the Maxwell article taken down shortly. Based on how quick A1 was to reply, I'm sure it'll be soon.

grimreaper
08-20-2013, 08:43 PM
Here's the reply from AF A1:

Hopefully we'll see the Maxwell article taken down shortly. Based on how quick A1 was to reply, I'm sure it'll be soon.

Awesome. People are losing their minds here. We just had an all-call here with CSAF & CMSAF yesterday and I'm shocked that it was not one of the questions. It was dang near torches and pitchforks here.

technomage1
08-20-2013, 09:05 PM
Awesome. People are losing their minds here. We just had an all-call here with CSAF & CMSAF yesterday and I'm shocked that it was not one of the questions. It was dang near torches and pitchforks here.

:firedevil::devilish::pissed:?

Class5Kayaker
08-21-2013, 02:49 PM
grimreaper, the Maxwell article no longer exists!

Even though this is an unofficial site, it's great that we can use it to communicate real issues and get actions taken to fix/accomplish some things.

Drackore
08-21-2013, 05:33 PM
You really don't want me getting the chance to ask anyone above the Command Chief level the question of "What dumbass came up with the idea that people who already took Course 14 needs to take it again to attend SNCOA, where they will hear it all over again?"

Because frankly and with 100% honesty, anyone who knows me will confirm, that is going to be the exact wording of my question...even if it is CSAF that I ask it to.

BRUWIN
08-22-2013, 03:23 AM
I'm only going to deal with those SNCOs that have completed the most up-to-date version of course 14. I have no time for those that are utilizing the outdated management techniques of the past.

js7799
08-22-2013, 05:02 PM
I got this email this morning. If I'm reading this correctly, old course 14 enrollees have an extension:

**HOT**HOT**Course 14 Update**

ALL TCF's, BTM'S and UTM's:

This is a new update to the message below sent on 2 Jul 2013.

The deadline to complete Course 14 (SNCOA-DL) has been extended until 30 Nov
2013. This is now the last day testing can be administered for Course 14.


XXXXXX
Distance Learning Manager

Silverback
08-22-2013, 10:45 PM
I got this email this morning. If I'm reading this correctly, old course 14 enrollees have an extension:

**HOT**HOT**Course 14 Update**

ALL TCF's, BTM'S and UTM's:

This is a new update to the message below sent on 2 Jul 2013.

The deadline to complete Course 14 (SNCOA-DL) has been extended until 30 Nov
2013. This is now the last day testing can be administered for Course 14.


XXXXXX
Distance Learning Manager



Yeah, I saw that email too. I am just going to wait until the new one comes on board in Nov/Dec time frame. I am not going to rush to do the current one. I will take my time on the new one and who knows? It might actually have more relevant information.

Class5Kayaker
08-23-2013, 06:00 PM
Latest update from A1




-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXXX CMSgt USAF AFDW AF/A1DL
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 11:20 AM Central Standard Time
To: Tons of Chiefs and Colonels
Cc: More Chiefs and Colonels

Subject: Course 14 Version 5 Transition

PME Team,
Last week Air University Public Affairs published an article stating the last
possible date for Course 14 Version 5 testing would be 30 Sep 13 with Version
6 enrollment beginning on 1 Oct 13. The article also indicated that members
would have to complete Version 6 prior to attending the newly designed
Advanced Leadership Experience (ALE) resident course. These policies and
dates were being discussed by senior leadership and had not been decided by
Headquarters Air Force when the article was released. Having said this, I
wanted to provide you a brief synopsis of where we are now concerning Course
14.

Course 14, Version 5 testing deadline has been extended to 30 Nov 13 for
members currently enrolled. After 30 Nov 13, members will not be permitted to
take any further exams and will not be given partial credit for incomplete
course work. In other words, you must complete the entire course to receive
credit. Second, Course 14 Version 6 enrollment will be open on 1 Oct 13 and
members will have one year to complete from date of enrollment. Within the
construct of EPME Transformation, Version 6 was designed as a foundation DL
course for those selected to attend the ALE resident course which is scheduled
for launch in June 2014.

In the article by AU, it indicated members would have to complete Version 6 to
be eligible for ALE attendance even if a SNCO had already completed Version 5.
Several senior leaders oppose this direction and do not desire for a member to
complete Version 6 if they have already successfully completed Version 5.
There is a policy letter in coordination at the moment that would directly
state Course 14, Version 6 is not mandatory if you completed Version 5. As a
note, A1D is awaiting pending coordination comments from AETC and Air
University prior to signing the policy letter. Further, AU is looking at a
less intrusive way to deliver foundational knowledge to those who completed
Version 5 and are selected to attend ALE.

Please help me pass along the correct information to the field and alleviate
all the rumors currently circulating. Also, I have scheduled a telecom for
all PME Managers on 4 Sep 13. In the next few days you will receive the
agenda, call-in information, and time. The main purpose of this telecom is to
give you an update on EPME Transformation and answer any questions you may
have concerning other EPME issues. Thank you for everything you do each
day...I look forward to working with all of you in the coming months. Have a
great weekend.

v/r Chief XXXX

XXXXXX, CMSgt, USAF
Chief, Air Force Enlisted Developmental Education

grimreaper
08-23-2013, 06:19 PM
Thanks for that. Have you heard any more about this PME Next? It looks like this is where it's headed with ALE Course (starting Jun 14), but I remember reading something to the effect that if a MSgt is outside of their "window" (it was like over 15 years from what I remember reading), they would not attend the in-residence course.

man
09-16-2013, 12:34 PM
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130904/CAREERS02/309040020/AF-sets-Nov-30-deadline-Senior-NCO-Academy-prep-course

So I know this is not an "official message". Is this true?

Last month’s now-withdrawn release also said senior NCOs who finish version 5, but who are scheduled to attend the academy after April 2014, will have to retake Course 14 in its new form. But Ward said the Air Force has dropped that rule, saying it wouldn’t be fair for people who have already put in the hard work to finish the course. Now, senior NCOs who finish version 5 before the Nov. 30 deadline will be able to attend the academy at any time without having to retake the course.

Airborne
09-17-2013, 01:54 AM
Yeah, I saw that email too. I am just going to wait until the new one comes on board in Nov/Dec time frame. I am not going to rush to do the current one. I will take my time on the new one and who knows? It might actually have more relevant information.

There are some people being rushed to get ahead and get it done even though a new one with updated material is coming out which just goes to show that course 14 is a block checker and not a learning tool.

Class5Kayaker
09-17-2013, 07:38 PM
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130904/CAREERS02/309040020/AF-sets-Nov-30-deadline-Senior-NCO-Academy-prep-course

So I know this is not an "official message". Is this true?

Last month’s now-withdrawn release also said senior NCOs who finish version 5, but who are scheduled to attend the academy after April 2014, will have to retake Course 14 in its new form. But Ward said the Air Force has dropped that rule, saying it wouldn’t be fair for people who have already put in the hard work to finish the course. Now, senior NCOs who finish version 5 before the Nov. 30 deadline will be able to attend the academy at any time without having to retake the course.

Seeing as how the person interviewed in the article is the same person who wrote the emails I posted, I'd say yes. :)

Class5Kayaker
09-17-2013, 07:38 PM
Thanks for that. Have you heard any more about this PME Next? It looks like this is where it's headed with ALE Course (starting Jun 14), but I remember reading something to the effect that if a MSgt is outside of their "window" (it was like over 15 years from what I remember reading), they would not attend the in-residence course.

I haven't heard anything on PME Next other than a mention in the AFT a while back.

AERYCK13
09-30-2013, 09:22 AM
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130904/CAREERS02/309040020/AF-sets-Nov-30-deadline-Senior-NCO-Academy-prep-course

So I know this is not an "official message". Is this true?

Last month’s now-withdrawn release also said senior NCOs who finish version 5, but who are scheduled to attend the academy after April 2014, will have to retake Course 14 in its new form. But Ward said the Air Force has dropped that rule, saying it wouldn’t be fair for people who have already put in the hard work to finish the course. Now, senior NCOs who finish version 5 before the Nov. 30 deadline will be able to attend the academy at any time without having to retake the course.

Here's the catch... I have it on good authority (from an instructor at the SNCOA) that if you have completed Ver. 5 and are selected to attend the in-residence course, you will be forced to complete the Ver. 6 course in your first 8 days at the academy. So, it would seem that the AF has told us what we wanted to hear in regards to the asshattery of this whole mess, but will get you in the end anyway. Still, no good deed goes unpunished...

Silverback
09-30-2013, 10:13 AM
I am waiting for the new version to come online...but if this course can be done in 8 days, then it can't be that difficult.