PDA

View Full Version : Correcting people when there is nothing to correct



TWilliams
08-10-2013, 03:49 AM
So I got an email today from our new command Chief basically telling us to correct folks in the PTU/IPTU who fail to salute the staff car. When I saw that I thought to myself that we only were required to render salutes in PT gear during reveillie and retreat and looked up the AFI to re-educate myself because I thought I missed an update to the AFI. Well sure enough, according to the AFI, I was correct and we have no Base sup so I was left wondering what am I supposed to correct? I emailed my supt to see if there was some policy I was unaware of and he said he was already emailing the Chief to make him aware of the AFI. The Chief quickly replied to everyone that yes he is aware that the AFI says we are not required to salute in PTU/IPTU based on rank but HIS view was that this did not apply to staff vehicles and that we "can do better." At least he qualified that he didn't expect folks who are doing PT to stop and salute, just people walking down the street in the PT uniform. Now I don't have a problem with the idea of saluting a staff car while in the PT uniform because honestly, how many people on base out rank the colonels? My gripe is the way it came down. If it is that important, then the wing should issue a Base sup to the AFI but instead the Chief decided to communicate to the SNCOs that in his opinion we are not correcting custom and courtesies infractions regardless of what the AFI says. It is this style of leadership that contributes to the demoralization of the Air Force. Don't worry though, I actively support and explain my leaderships decisions and told my folks to always salute the staff car since even though saluting may not be required, it is not prohibited.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-10-2013, 03:58 AM
So I got an email today from our new command Chief basically telling us to correct folks in the PTU/IPTU who fail to salute the staff car. When I saw that I thought to myself that we only were required to render salutes in PT gear during reveillie and retreat and looked up the AFI to re-educate myself because I thought I missed an update to the AFI. Well sure enough, according to the AFI, I was correct and we have no Base sup so I was left wondering what am I supposed to correct? I emailed my supt to see if there was some policy I was unaware of and he said he was already emailing the Chief to make him aware of the AFI. The Chief quickly replied to everyone that yes he is aware that the AFI says we are not required to salute in PTU/IPTU based on rank but HIS view was that this did not apply to staff vehicles and that we "can do better." At least he qualified that he didn't expect folks who are doing PT to stop and salute, just people walking down the street in the PT uniform. Now I don't have a problem with the idea of saluting a staff car while in the PT uniform because honestly, how many people on base out rank the colonels? My gripe is the way it came down. If it is that important, then the wing should issue a Base sup to the AFI but instead the Chief decided to communicate to the SNCOs that in his opinion we are not correcting custom and courtesies infractions regardless of what the AFI says. It is this style of leadership that contributes to the demoralization of the Air Force. Don't worry though, I actively support and explain my leaderships decisions and told my folks to always salute the staff car since even though saluting may not be required, it is not prohibited.

While at Langley I watched COMACC drive right by me while I was wearing PT gear and I did NOT salute. No big deal. It's not required per AFI or supp. That Chief thinking it's a good idea to salute in PT gear is the same type of d-bag who probably thinks it's a good idea to iron and starch ABUs. I mean, why not? Can't "we do better?"

Measure Man
08-10-2013, 05:06 AM
Sounds to me like the CCM got called on his first email and backpedaled without coming out and saying, "okay, I was wrong"...take it as a small victory and march on. No one is perfect.

Gonzo432
08-10-2013, 11:49 AM
Wow, where to begin. The PTU had been mandatory less than a year when I retired (Sep 07) and the goat-rope it was in those days has spawned some beyond a CHARLIE FOXTROT. First, changing the rules on PTU wear every-other day and then having a whole other set of rules in the AOR is going to confuse the crap out of everyone. Then people who must not have a job have to "add their special 2 cents worth" because they don't have a job and they're bored. GET A JOB!

I don't know what today's PTU is like, the one I had to buy was overpriced CRAP. If I wanted to wear shorts like the NBA wore in 1973 I'd invent a time machine.

Why just salute staff cars in the PTU? Why not just salute the crap out of everybody like the ROKAF? Why not in civvies? Why not when you're in your house and a car similar make and model to a staff car drives by? This ain't that hard!! When Clausewitz wrote of the "fog of war", whether or not to salute a staff car in a PTU was not what he had in mind. I'm sure there are more important things to worry about.

RobotChicken
08-10-2013, 12:39 PM
"Do you have to salute it if it is 'flying by'?? Does this mean to say ignore ALL other hazards of walking on a sidewalk or crossing a street to protect yourself of everyday hazards to keep 50% of your vision on the lookout for the 'old mans' car on the way to the 'o'club'? Cant he see the reflective belts for crying out loud, what are they for your good looks? He needs to be SALUTING his troops instead for putting up with his 'BS' 24/7!!!"

efmbman
08-10-2013, 01:04 PM
This seems like a great example of someone seeking to get a great write-up, also known as the "Good Idea Fairy". There is a great deal of pressure on leaders to set themselves apart from their peers. With the coming draw-down, the competition for positions of greater responsibility is more fierce than ever. Only the absolute best will remain and move up.

Enter the "New Policy". This policy was a product of the desire to get noticed and, if the policy is well received, have it recorded.

The unintended side effect is that junior ranking people see this as the example of what a senior leader is supposed to do. When the junior ranking people of today become the senior leaders of tomorrow the cycle continues.

AFcynic
08-10-2013, 01:11 PM
So I got an email today from our new command Chief basically telling us to correct folks in the PTU/IPTU who fail to salute the staff car. When I saw that I thought to myself that we only were required to render salutes in PT gear during reveillie and retreat and looked up the AFI to re-educate myself because I thought I missed an update to the AFI. Well sure enough, according to the AFI, I was correct and we have no Base sup so I was left wondering what am I supposed to correct? I emailed my supt to see if there was some policy I was unaware of and he said he was already emailing the Chief to make him aware of the AFI. The Chief quickly replied to everyone that yes he is aware that the AFI says we are not required to salute in PTU/IPTU based on rank but HIS view was that this did not apply to staff vehicles and that we "can do better." At least he qualified that he didn't expect folks who are doing PT to stop and salute, just people walking down the street in the PT uniform. Now I don't have a problem with the idea of saluting a staff car while in the PT uniform because honestly, how many people on base out rank the colonels? My gripe is the way it came down. If it is that important, then the wing should issue a Base sup to the AFI but instead the Chief decided to communicate to the SNCOs that in his opinion we are not correcting custom and courtesies infractions regardless of what the AFI says. It is this style of leadership that contributes to the demoralization of the Air Force. Don't worry though, I actively support and explain my leaderships decisions and told my folks to always salute the staff car since even though saluting may not be required, it is not prohibited.

This E-9 enlisted "leader" is a joke, and should be asked to retire. It's that dangerous mindset of "the rules don't apply to me - I'm CMSgt XXX or Col XXX or BG XXX" that is going to be the downfall of the Air Force. If the baby is ugly, the baby is ugly. This E-9 is simply trying to impress his boss, or his bosses boss. He's only looking out for himself right now, and is gunning for a MAJCOM CCM position. From reading this post, this E-9 is/was probably the type of SNCO who refused to go to bat for his subordinates, tell the CC he's wrong, or simply have a backbone at the right time. In other words, he's quality AF leadership.

zeke7142003
08-10-2013, 01:22 PM
Perhaps this Chief got to where he is by being the ultimate "company man" infused with blue kool aid and he cannot let it go....it's too ingrained in his system. These guys are always looking for the "attaboy" from higher up and will not let common sense or a silly regulation stand in their way of acquiring said "attaboy".

Mr. Happy
08-10-2013, 01:55 PM
Can't wait to retire.

FuelShopTech
08-10-2013, 02:13 PM
I got out in June and I so totally don't miss this crap.

BENDER56
08-10-2013, 02:54 PM
So I got an email today from our new command Chief basically telling us to correct folks in the PTU/IPTU who fail to salute the staff car. When I saw that I thought ...<snip>

Please tell me you're at Hanscom.

Gonzo432
08-10-2013, 03:08 PM
Please tell me you're at Hanscom.

He can't throw out the first pitch at Red Sox games every day, too bad for the folks at Hanscom.

UH1FE
08-10-2013, 05:27 PM
Another Blutarsky in the making!

TWilliams
08-10-2013, 06:21 PM
Perhaps this Chief got to where he is by being the ultimate "company man" infused with blue kool aid and he cannot let it go....it's too ingrained in his system. These guys are always looking for the "attaboy" from higher up and will not let common sense or a silly regulation stand in their way of acquiring said "attaboy".

Perhaps you are right. He is also really big on making people clap during the AF song.

TWilliams
08-10-2013, 06:22 PM
Please tell me you're at Hanscom.

Not Hanscom. I'm at a Northern Tier base. I'll leave it at that since my screen name doesn't really give me that much anonymity.

technomage1
08-10-2013, 07:45 PM
Perhaps you are right. He is also really big on making people clap during the AF song.

Then he's evil incarnate. No question.

I HATE clapping during the song. The AFI needs to be re-written to show a little pride.

Gonzo432
08-10-2013, 08:10 PM
Not Hanscom. I'm at a Northern Tier base. I'll leave it at that since my screen name doesn't really give me that much anonymity.

If your handle was ZBreschellsenhaker I'd agree. TWilliams gets you the phone book.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-10-2013, 09:59 PM
Then he's evil incarnate. No question.

I HATE clapping during the song. The AFI needs to be re-written to show a little pride.

I think it should be re-written to show a little diversity!

Have it played by a Mariachi band during Latino Heritage Month and during Pacific Islander Month I'd want the Air Force song played on one of those Hawaiian saw instruments.

Although we don't have a Appalachian Mountain Heritage Month yet, I'd love to hear the Air Force Song rendered by a pair of dueling banjos and a boinging juice harp!

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-10-2013, 10:57 PM
Perhaps you are right. He is also really big on making people clap during the AF song.

Forcing people to show (fake) enthusiasm for the AF hoe-down...nice.

Rizzo77
08-11-2013, 12:32 AM
I am an Air Force brat that joined the Army, and thought that I did not choose wisely (UNTIL NOW).

JEBUS, I guess that total douchebags are service immaterial.

Silverback
08-11-2013, 03:02 AM
That Chief thinking it's a good idea to salute in PT gear is the same type of d-bag who probably thinks it's a good idea to iron and starch ABUs. I mean, why not? Can't "we do better?"

I have noticed a lot of people ironing or taking their ABUs to the cleaners. People need to stop this. ABUs are meant to be practical.

DocBones
08-11-2013, 03:37 AM
Way back, when the Marines first went to USMC wide camos, it said right on the tag, 'Do Not Iron'. I was a Drill Instructor at the time.

I liked them. Washing was not a problem. Not having to have razor sharp creases to try to injure recruits, well, those attempts soon ended. ===sniff===. Oh, how I miss the pre camo days, come to think of that.

OK, maybe my memory is no longer functioning as well as it used to.

BOSS302
08-11-2013, 09:29 AM
I have noticed a lot of people ironing or taking their ABUs to the cleaners. People need to stop this. ABUs are meant to be practical.

As practical as digital tiger-striped, sky-colored uniforms can be. Maybe if we fought in a world such as "Avatar" they'd be more practical.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-11-2013, 10:12 AM
I'm going to be laughing the rest of the day at that one.

Chief_KO
08-11-2013, 12:29 PM
WRT clapping during the AF Song...there is no truth to the rumor that eefin & hambone during the AF Song will be authorized for bases in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, panhandle of Florida, Tennessee, or the Carolina's (or Nellis during the NASCAR race). It is just a very bad internet rumor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xxkzTlXtGU

BENDER56
08-11-2013, 07:44 PM
I am an Air Force brat that joined the Army, and thought that I did not choose wisely (UNTIL NOW).

JEBUS, I guess that total douchebags are service immaterial.

Riiiiight. You claim you're Army yet you know how to use "immaterial" in a sentence? As if.

TJMAC77SP
08-12-2013, 10:49 AM
Sounds to me like the CCM got called on his first email and backpedaled without coming out and saying, "okay, I was wrong"...take it as a small victory and march on. No one is perfect.

That is EXACTLY what happened.

Juggs
08-12-2013, 02:13 PM
I have noticed a lot of people ironing or taking their ABUs to the cleaners. People need to stop this. ABUs are meant to be practical.

Here is to the AF taking the battle out of ABU every day of the week.

Juggs
08-12-2013, 02:15 PM
As practical as digital tiger-striped, sky-colored uniforms can be. Maybe if we fought in a world such as "Avatar" they'd be more practical.

A practical as a heavy ass, no useful pocket, poor color schemed, "battle" uniform can be. It's a shitty shitty uniform and should've been destroyed before the idea of it became reality.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-12-2013, 02:22 PM
A practical as a heavy ass, no useful pocket, poor color schemed, "battle" uniform can be. It's a shitty shitty uniform and should've been destroyed before the idea of it became reality.

But some General said that he wanted to be able to look out onto a ramp and immediately recognize that those guys and gals out there working on planes and marshaling aircraft were in the Air Force!

And the ABU was born!

Juggs
08-12-2013, 02:24 PM
Exactly, screw the guys that had to deal with the horrible combat version of that uniform. I remember at an NCO symposium getting into a pissing contest with the CCF of McChord telling how stupid the ABU.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-12-2013, 02:27 PM
Here is to the AF taking the battle out of ABU every day of the week.

Because you look like a warrior with wrinkles and a curled up collar? Why not stick a Snuggle Dryer Sheet to the back of your blouse to prove you are hard core wash and wear?

Juggs
08-12-2013, 02:30 PM
Because you look like a warrior with wrinkles and a curled up collar? Why not stick a Snuggle Dryer Sheet to the back of your blouse to prove you are hard core wash and wear?

Put in the dryer for 2 minutes wrinkles out. Besides a popped collar is for tools in a night club, im profession I wear it down!! I did roll sleeves in the though because I'm a rebel.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-12-2013, 02:34 PM
Put in the dryer for 2 minutes wrinkles out. Besides a popped collar is for tools in a night club, im profession I wear it down!! I did roll sleeves in the though because I'm a rebel.

Okay Maverick, you're dangerous! You can hang out with me at the squadron bake sale anytime!

Juggs
08-12-2013, 02:39 PM
That's right... I am dangerous. Ill bring the sprinkles.

DocBones
08-14-2013, 02:21 AM
Absinthe,

Here I thought that I had a pretty highly developed sense of humor. Then I saw what you wrote about the snuggle sheet. Thanks, dude. You made me laugh hard enough for my wife to come in and ask me if I was having a heart attack from all of the end laugh gasping!

DocBones
08-14-2013, 02:24 AM
Juggs,

You just make me smile! I think that you and AbsintheAntidote have a future kind of like Sheldon and Leonard do, as sitcom actors/heroes!

Rizzo77
08-17-2013, 02:43 AM
Riiiiight. You claim you're Army yet you know how to use "immaterial" in a sentence? As if.

Not at all. I initially went to see the Air Force recruiter, and one of his selling points was that "the Air Force has really cool uniforms." I said "that's immaterial." He said, "no, not at all. They're 50% cotton and 50% polyester."

BENDER56
08-17-2013, 09:44 PM
Not at all. I initially went to see the Air Force recruiter, and one of his selling points was that "the Air Force has really cool uniforms." I said "that's immaterial." He said, "no, not at all. They're 50% cotton and 50% polyester."

It dismays me to think he would say either of those things, but I believe you.

Z1911
08-21-2013, 03:01 AM
Another Blutarsky in the making!

Nope...Sounds like he's already made...Blutarsky II lives on!!!!

Class5Kayaker
08-21-2013, 01:57 PM
Because you look like a warrior with wrinkles and a curled up collar? Why not stick a Snuggle Dryer Sheet to the back of your blouse to prove you are hard core wash and wear?

You'd be really hardcore because using fabric softeners make them more visible to nightvision! [/sarcasm] (Remember the couple year that guidance was out until it was debunked?)

Absinthe Anecdote
08-21-2013, 02:34 PM
You'd be really hardcore because using fabric softeners make them more visible to nightvision! [/sarcasm] (Remember the couple year that guidance was out until it was debunked?)

I think that a different version floated around about starch and the BDUs.

For some reason this reminds me of the Iraqis wrapping their RPG rounds in trash bags because they thought it would defeat the defensive systems on the Abrams tanks.

I guess there are smoke pit geniuses everywhere.

Juggs
08-21-2013, 11:37 PM
Juggs,

You just make me smile! I think that you and AbsintheAntidote have a future kind of like Sheldon and Leonard do, as sitcom actors/heroes!

I can see that.

Juggs
08-21-2013, 11:40 PM
You'd be really hardcore because using fabric softeners make them more visible to nightvision! [/sarcasm] (Remember the couple year that guidance was out until it was debunked?)

It's the starch. It's not just NVGs, but the IR illuminator on the NVGs. I've seen, saw it in tech school. Dudes would wear their class uniforms in the field and light up like an LZ.

Chief_KO
08-22-2013, 01:55 AM
It's the starch. It's not just NVGs, but the IR illuminator on the NVGs. I've seen, saw it in tech school. Dudes would wear their class uniforms in the field and light up like an LZ.

So you're actually confirming what the AF said about not starching a working, utility, field, battle uniform...be it the BDU, ABU or next gen...imagine that

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 02:46 AM
So you're actually confirming what the AF said about not starching a working, utility, field, battle uniform...be it the BDU, ABU or next gen...imagine that

Are you a "wash & wear" Chief?

No offense but I want all of my Chiefs to be neatly pressed and lightly starched.

loggie94
08-22-2013, 05:40 AM
It looks like he's updated the link from his original appology for the AF ABU pattern selection, but the message is still the same.

http://tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger/

This version still says "against my recommendations"... The original version was a flat-out appology for a 'useless' cammo pattern after effective cammo pattern were provided...

Chief_KO
08-22-2013, 12:10 PM
Are you a "wash & wear" Chief?

No offense but I want all of my Chiefs to be neatly pressed and lightly starched.

I wore all uniforms as they were intended and directed to be worn. Fatigues: Shirt tucked in, boots polished, specialty badge worn. BDUs: taken out of the dryer before 100% dry, pockets and stripes ironed so they didn't curl up, boots polished. ABUs: Stripes ironed when crease disappeared or if they wanted to curl. Pockets never sewn shut, no cardboard, wires, blocking of hat, specialty badge always worn (desert BDUs as well). Blues: always wore ribbons and specialty badge. Never wore the Mr Rodgers cardigan or crushed my flight cap.
Fun fact: I am quite proud of my E4 Sgt photo wearing just the BMT ribbon.
Retired: Dockers, dress or polo shirt, dress shoes, sport coat if cold. On casual Fridays, jeans & polo.

Class5Kayaker
08-22-2013, 01:23 PM
It's the starch. It's not just NVGs, but the IR illuminator on the NVGs. I've seen, saw it in tech school. Dudes would wear their class uniforms in the field and light up like an LZ.

Agreed on the starch (seen it as well playing OPFOR back in my SFS days). I was referring to the "No fabric softener or detergents with brighteners" guidance that came out when the ABUs and ACUs were initially on the streets.

Pullinteeth
08-22-2013, 01:39 PM
Perhaps you are right. He is also really big on making people clap during the AF song.

Then he needs a good slap. I have never and will never do that... Clap if you don't know the words!:clock




I have noticed a lot of people ironing or taking their ABUs to the cleaners. People need to stop this. ABUs are meant to be practical.

So were BDUs...then some @$$hat thought they would stand out by ironing them....then starch...then heavy starch...then everyone had to follow suit and it became the standard. Bunch of fuktards. I once had another SNCO tell me that because of my AFSC, I should iron my ABUs... I told her she must have lost her goddamned mind.:smashfreakB:


Because you look like a warrior with wrinkles and a curled up collar? Why not stick a Snuggle Dryer Sheet to the back of your blouse to prove you are hard core wash and wear?

Because they aren't supposed to go into the dryer.:fish

BOSS302
08-22-2013, 02:34 PM
So were BDUs...then some @$$hat thought they would stand out by ironing them....then starch...then heavy starch...then everyone had to follow suit and it became the standard. Bunch of fuktards. I once had another SNCO tell me that because of my AFSC, I should iron my ABUs... I told her she must have lost her goddamned mind.:smashfreakB:

With the growing amount of jackasses I see having their ABUs dry cleaned and starch-blocking their hats, history may repeat...

Juggs
08-22-2013, 03:07 PM
So you're actually confirming what the AF said about not starching a working, utility, field, battle uniform...be it the BDU, ABU or next gen...imagine that

Actually the AF is the one that beats into your head to starch BDUs.

Juggs
08-22-2013, 03:08 PM
Are you a "wash & wear" Chief?

No offense but I want all of my Chiefs to be neatly pressed and lightly starched.

I want a wash and wear chief. He shows the example of not tarnishing an "battlefield" uniform!!

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 03:19 PM
I want a wash and wear chief. He shows the example of not tarnishing an "battlefield" uniform!!

Sorry, I still want my Chiefs to be neatly pressed and lightly starched. They should also faintly smell of talc as if they just came from the barber shop.

Juggs
08-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Sorry, I still want my Chiefs to be neatly pressed and lightly starched. They should also faintly smell of talc as if they just came from the barber shop.

I want him to have a working uniform, smell of Copenhagen long cut with a hint of whiskey.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 03:27 PM
I want him to have a working uniform, smell of Copenhagen long cut with a hint of whiskey.

I beg to differ. A Chief should be neatly pressed, lightly starched and faintly smelling of talc. He should also have manicured finger nails and whistle a jaunty show tune as he walks through the parking lot.

"His nose should pant
and his lip should curl,
His cheeks should flame
and his brow should furl,
His bosom should heave
and his heart should glow,
And his fist be ever ready
for a knock-down blow."

CYBERFX1024
08-22-2013, 03:37 PM
Way back, when the Marines first went to USMC wide camos, it said right on the tag, 'Do Not Iron'. I was a Drill Instructor at the time.
I liked them. Washing was not a problem. Not having to have razor sharp creases to try to injure recruits, well, those attempts soon ended. ===sniff===. Oh, how I miss the pre camo days, come to think of that.
OK, maybe my memory is no longer functioning as well as it used to.

I know what you mean. When I went to boot camp in 2002. We became the first platoon on the East Coast that got issued the Digital Cammies, while the week prior they still got the woodland camo. So we were stared at and people tried to buy and sometimes steal out uniforms. But like you said we ironed our uniforms to make them look good like the other Marines. But eventually we gave up.

Juggs
08-22-2013, 03:38 PM
I beg to differ. A Chief should be neatly pressed, lightly starched and faintly smelling of talc. He should also have manicured finger nails and whistle a jaunty show tune as he walks through the parking lot.

"His nose should pant
and his lip should curl,
His cheeks should flame
and his brow should furl,
His bosom should heave
and his heart should glow,
And his fist be ever ready
for a knock-down blow."

Chew and whiskey

Humming to the toon of a Waylon Jennings song.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 03:50 PM
Chew and whiskey

Humming to the toon of a Waylon Jennings song.

You go out and build your own Air Force and then staff it with tobacco smelling and whiskey drenched Chiefs who are inspired by Waylon Jennings and we'll see how many jets you get off the ground.

My "Chiefs of the Chorus" will fly circles around you.

Juggs
08-22-2013, 03:53 PM
You go out and build your own Air Force and then staff it with tobacco smelling and whiskey drenched Chiefs who are inspired by Waylon Jennings and we'll see how many jets you get off the ground.

My "Chiefs of the Chorus" will fly circles around you.

No they won't fly around in circles. Maybe in tutus. They won't be able to get airmen to work because they'll be busy at bake sales and being friends with airmen instead being a boot in the ass and a pat on back. Pussies.

20+Years
08-22-2013, 03:55 PM
Jets hell, we could finally be entertained again by Chiefs that say, "Hold my beer and watch this"!

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 04:03 PM
No they won't fly around in circles. Maybe in tutus. They won't be able to get airmen to work because they'll be busy at bake sales and being friends with airmen instead being a boot in the ass and a pat on back. Pussies.

I'm afraid you have fallen victim to that whole "hero of the working class" fantasy that the country music word likes to promote.

A gruff and drunken slob is not an effective Chief.

My Gilbert & Sullivan Chiefs will beat your Waylon & Willie Chiefs any day of the week.

Pullinteeth
08-22-2013, 06:31 PM
Sorry, I still want my Chiefs to be neatly pressed and lightly starched. They should also faintly smell of talc as if they just came from the barber shop.

So you favor a Chief that flaunts the fact that he/she thinks the rules don't apply to them? I can see that. At least you know where they stand...

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 06:53 PM
So you favor a Chief that flaunts the fact that he/she thinks the rules don't apply to them? I can see that. At least you know where they stand...

I think you need to go back and read all of my posts on this subject and ask yourself, "is this guy poking fun at the ABU?"

To answer your question directly, no, we should all follow the rules.

However, a bit of touch up ironing is hurting anyone. I was one of those people who always took my uniforms to the cleaners and came to work every day like I was going to be in an open ranks inspection.

So, I guess I was more than a little pissed at the Air Force for rolling out a uniform that was being touted as wash & wear.

In my opinion, those are two words that shouldn't belong with any airman, especially a Chief.

20+Years
08-22-2013, 07:40 PM
I dunno...

I think I would rather have a Chief that was wash and wear that could pick up the phone and help an Amn get a travel voucher settled, than a pressed and ironed Chief that is merely a pretty figurehead that will likely be found asking people about thier reflective belts.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 08:37 PM
I dunno...

I think I would rather have a Chief that was wash and wear that could pick up the phone and help an Amn get a travel voucher settled, than a pressed and ironed Chief that is merely a pretty figurehead that will likely be found asking people about thier reflective belts.

Why can't you have an immaculate uniform and still take care of business and take care of your people?

I might draw some fire for saying this but I think a lot of people push a fallacy of the "rough around the edges" sergeant that is the best at their job.

Kind of like those people who defend those NCOs who are overweight and fail the PT test but claim they are a top performer on the job.

To me that sounds like an attempt to prey on the good natured side of people. There are very few people who want to bring the hammer down on a person for failing a PT test, including me.

However, if these fat bodied duffel bags are so amazing at their jobs then you’d think they would be able to kick ass in the shop then head on down to the gym and get squared away with their physical fitness, not to mention getting their nutrition in order.

I think that image of the competent but gruff and shabby NCO who knows his business and is a mover and shaker of the troops is the stuff of bit actors in Hollywood movies.
I question the ability of anyone to “take care of the troops” if they can’t take care of their own personal appearance and physical condition.

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.

20+Years

I wasn’t unloading on you; I understand you were talking about a slightly different aspect of this issue.

20+Years
08-22-2013, 08:48 PM
Lol... it doesn't have to be one or the other. I know what you are saying.

I am truly one of those people who would love to go back to BDU's and black boots. I knew I looked good in my uniform. It was easy to tell as soon as you saw someone how much they cared about thier appearance, and it probably carried over into everything else.

With this wash and wear crap, the only difference I can really truly tell is when someone bothers to crease thier stripe.

Juggs
08-22-2013, 11:33 PM
I like the wash and wear if it truly were a combat/battle uniform. It isn't, it's a barracks/office uniform. When we had BDUs tacps usually looked pretty damn sharp, polished boots, crisp uniforms, haircuts (usually longish but clean) had a stinking PC and a sharp beret for when needed.

In the field, we had wrinkly uniforms, that had never seen starch before, red clay stains that will never come out, and usually had hiking books or nasty ass field boots. There is a time and place for every uniform.

Chief_KO
08-23-2013, 01:43 AM
Actually the AF is the one that beats into your head to starch BDUs.

Nope its a few AIRMEN* that beat into each others heads to starch utility, working, battle uniforms...right after they sewed their pockets shut.

* Airmen are defined as enlisted personnel, pay grades of E-1 to E-9...officers would never starch their uniforms; that would require time, effort, & money (and as they have always told me "we don't get a clothing allowance like you guys do")

Chief_KO
08-23-2013, 01:51 AM
It is entirely possible to wear an ABU without ironing or starching (other than creasing the stripe occasionally as -2903 allows) and look sharp. It is actually quite simple:
1. Buy the right size...most of the duffle bags have uniforms 2 sizes too big.
2. Stand, walk, sit, etc. with some good posture...when you slouch you look like $hit, no matter what you're wearing
3. Wear headgear properly...just like your taught in BMT (yes, you will have to always correct officers)
4. Blouse pants correctly...you're bagging and sagging ala the NBA or major league baseball...stop the BS of the elastic bands at the bottom (remember the "Start tucking your pants in starting Monday email from the CSAF")
5. Clean your boots...suede brush works wonders.
It's not the uniform that makes one look sharp, it's the sharp person making any article of clothing look good.

OtisRNeedleman
08-23-2013, 02:13 AM
Nope its a few AIRMEN* that beat into each others heads to starch utility, working, battle uniforms...right after they sewed their pockets shut.

* Airmen are defined as enlisted personnel, pay grades of E-1 to E-9...officers would never starch their uniforms; that would require time, effort, & money (and as they have always told me "we don't get a clothing allowance like you guys do")

Some officers did. :) I always starched mine, as appropriate. If not appropriate, I had them dry-cleaned. Either way, I never cleaned my uniforms at home. I, too, wanted to look as sharp as possible in uniform. I worked to set a good example.

Chief_KO
08-23-2013, 02:23 AM
Otis, I apologize for painting with such a broad stroke. I should have known if there was an O who did try to look sharp you would be one. Unfortunately I've encountered far too many of the other.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-23-2013, 12:17 PM
Otis, I apologize for painting with such a broad stroke. I should have known if there was an O who did try to look sharp you would be one. Unfortunately I've encountered far too many of the other.

I starched the shit out of my BDUs. So glad we stopped wearing those uniforms!

Class5Kayaker
08-23-2013, 01:32 PM
Nope its a few AIRMEN* that beat into each others heads to starch utility, working, battle uniforms...right after they sewed their pockets shut.

* Airmen are defined as enlisted personnel, pay grades of E-1 to E-9...officers would never starch their uniforms; that would require time, effort, & money (and as they have always told me "we don't get a clothing allowance like you guys do")

Yeah....and we supposedly eat $110 less a month than enlisted do too! :confused:

Rusty Jones
08-23-2013, 01:37 PM
Yeah....and we supposedly eat $110 less a month than enlisted do too! :confused:

Makes sense. Since the enlisted do all the work, they need more calories than officers do.

Class5Kayaker
08-23-2013, 01:37 PM
Otis, I apologize for painting with such a broad stroke. I should have known if there was an O who did try to look sharp you would be one. Unfortunately I've encountered far too many of the other.I starched the shit out of my BDUs. So glad we stopped wearing those uniforms!

Me too...but it's the prior-enlisted cop in me. :) OtisRNeedlemanand FLAPS, USAF (ret) are both Prior-E as well. Coincidence? Not likely.

Class5Kayaker
08-23-2013, 01:43 PM
Makes sense. Since the enlisted do all the work, they need more calories than officers do.

Look man, I was enlisted for 15 years. We all know most everyone spends more than their BAS on food/drink per month. I understand that the allowances are different because we get paid more, but that's not how the allowance is advertised in the regs. One day I supposedly ate ~$320/month in food then the next day ~$220 according to finance (back when I commissioned). Oh, and my wife was still enlisted at the time. She's 5'1 120lbs and I'm 6' 205lbs but suddenly she supposedly ate $100 more a month than I did.

When it comes down to the principle of it though, I'd rather they just not give it to officers at all. Of course, I'm not going to bitch about an extra $250 a month in my pocket each month, but if you're going to give both ranks an allowance for FOOD, it should be the same. Otherwise just do like clothing allowance and say officers already compensated enough to not need BAS.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-23-2013, 05:56 PM
Look man, I was enlisted for 15 years. We all know most everyone spends more than their BAS on food/drink per month. I understand that the allowances are different because we get paid more, but that's not how the allowance is advertised in the regs. One day I supposedly ate ~$320/month in food then the next day ~$220 according to finance (back when I commissioned). Oh, and my wife was still enlisted at the time. She's 5'1 120lbs and I'm 6' 205lbs but suddenly she supposedly ate $100 more a month than I did.

When it comes down to the principle of it though, I'd rather they just not give it to us at all. Of course, I'm not going to bitch about an extra $250 a month in my pocket each month, but if you're going to give both ranks an allowance for FOOD, it should be the same. Otherwise just do like clothing allowance and say we're already compensated enough to not need BAS.

Or they can at least just do the right thing by suspending BAS during deployments, like they used to do.

efmbman
08-23-2013, 09:49 PM
Or they can at least just do the right thing by suspending BAS during deployments, like they used to do.

They did every time I deployed. Is that not the policy anymore?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-23-2013, 09:50 PM
They did every time I deployed. Is that not the policy anymore?

Not since Bill Clinton was in office

Chief_KO
08-23-2013, 09:57 PM
Desert Shield/Storm was the kicker...first time we ever mobilized and deployed forces in that fashion. Besides some guard and reserve members showing up with A-bags filled with shredded newspaper & leaving the kids in the car ("I thought this was just another exercise"), the negative publicity that military members were losing money was more than the administration could handle. Now days, BAS is kept (even though it is still for the member, hence only one rate unlike BAH) and AOR receives $3.50 a day (even though everything is free).
I know the non-proration of HDP is being looked at (as it has been for the last 12 years), as well as what locations truly deserve HDP. But, as long as HQ types fly to the AOR on the 30th and depart on the 1st (drawing 2 months HDP) I really don't see that changing...

OtisRNeedleman
08-25-2013, 03:11 AM
Look man, I was enlisted for 15 years. We all know most everyone spends more than their BAS on food/drink per month. I understand that the allowances are different because we get paid more, but that's not how the allowance is advertised in the regs. One day I supposedly ate ~$320/month in food then the next day ~$220 according to finance (back when I commissioned). Oh, and my wife was still enlisted at the time. She's 5'1 120lbs and I'm 6' 205lbs but suddenly she supposedly ate $100 more a month than I did.

When it comes down to the principle of it though, I'd rather they just not give it to officers at all. Of course, I'm not going to bitch about an extra $250 a month in my pocket each month, but if you're going to give both ranks an allowance for FOOD, it should be the same. Otherwise just do like clothing allowance and say officers already compensated enough to not need BAS.

Yup, that's one thing I never really understood re BAS. I could eat as much as an officer as I did when an enlisted man. So why did I get less of a subsistence allowance as an officer? Never figured that one out.

OtisRNeedleman
08-25-2013, 03:19 AM
Otis, I apologize for painting with such a broad stroke. I should have known if there was an O who did try to look sharp you would be one. Unfortunately I've encountered far too many of the other.

No sweat. And even though my hairline steadily receded, I always had a good haircut and a shave, even on weekends/leave. It wasn't just to set an example, but I had my own personal standards. Still do. What hair I still have is kept short and I shave every day. Something you might find funny...last year had surgery and was in the ICU. Couldn't shave, all hooked up. When I got out of the ICU and into a regular hospital room I shaved as soon as I could maneuver myself into the bathroom. Three days without shaving plus having a heavy beard anyway made me look like someone's grandfather. Looked and felt much better after the shave. :) Unfortunately, in retirement the pounds are coming on and I fight the battle of the bulge daily.

Chief_KO
08-25-2013, 03:43 AM
No sweat. And even though my hairline steadily receded, I always had a good haircut and a shave, even on weekends/leave. It wasn't just to set an example, but I had my own personal standards. Still do. What hair I still have is kept short and I shave every day. Something you might find funny...last year had surgery and was in the ICU. Couldn't shave, all hooked up. When I got out of the ICU and into a regular hospital room I shaved as soon as I could maneuver myself into the bathroom. Three days without shaving plus having a heavy beard anyway made me look like someone's grandfather. Looked and felt much better after the shave. :) Unfortunately, in retirement the pounds are coming on and I fight the battle of the bulge daily.

I found the best way to look better was to start making older & fatter friends. VFW & American Legion are great places to do that...along with HS & college reunions.