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VCO
07-25-2013, 12:06 PM
So, I've always wondered...haircuts on or off duty? I use to think SNCOs that disappeared for nearly an hour, and showed up with a fresh haircut, were sketchy. If an Airman or NCO can't dip out during a lull to get a haircut, why a SNCO? Over time I've changed that though process. I've welcomed the break from the BS of the day to get a haircut and clear my head. I normally return focused and ready to re-attack the issues at hand.

So I ask, what are your thoughts? RHIP or douchy?

Chief_KO
07-25-2013, 12:10 PM
If the Commander, Chief, First Sergeant, Flight Commander, or any SNCO gets a haircut during duty time, all Airmen in that unit should be allowed to do likewise. Now, with that being said during my first 2 assignments back in the early - mid 80's no one in my units got a haircut during duty time.

RobotChicken
07-25-2013, 12:12 PM
"Well a certain avatar could use a 'slight' trim though..... "

VCO
07-25-2013, 12:14 PM
"Well a certain avatar could use a 'slight' trim though..... "

I've hated every single one of your posts up until this point. This one made me laugh.

RobotChicken
07-25-2013, 12:16 PM
I've hated every single one of your posts up until this point. This one made me laugh.

"Thank you 'VCO', just trying to be a 'good RC'."

technomage1
07-25-2013, 12:21 PM
I get mine during my lunch break. Whatever informal policy is used in this area, it should be consistent across all ranks.

VCO
07-25-2013, 12:24 PM
"Thank you 'VCO', just trying to be a 'good RC'."

You should have that salmonella checked out by a doctor.

20+Years
07-25-2013, 12:54 PM
I have got haircuts on duty since I was an Airman. Usually, its in combination with lunch, and I always have let the boss know. I wouldn't bat an eye if an E-1 was going to lunch and to get a haircut, and might be a bit late getting back to work.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-25-2013, 12:56 PM
I don't have a problem with leaders breaking away for a haircut. At least in mx, SNCOs and Officers manage their own time while on duty, whereas the Airmen have their time managed for them. Airmen have shift change to look forward to, whereas I went home after my work was caught up, most times 11-13 hours after I started.

Airmen can look forward to the pros/cons of RHIP as a SNCO (or officer), but in the mean time should keep being good Airmen. I know, I'm just a meany and life isn't fair.

SomeRandomGuy
07-25-2013, 01:06 PM
I have no problem with people getting a haircut, buying some uniform items at clothing sales, going to children's doctor appointment, volunteering, or even going home early. The only thing is that these things need to be balanaced against the mission. If things are slow and the shop can afford to lose a person for a few hours then I say it is ok for the supervisor to let them get some things taken care of. Now with that in mind the mission always comes first. Bottom line is that it is ok to take care of yourself or your airmen as long as you are not unfairly burdening others to accomplish it.

Pullinteeth
07-25-2013, 01:06 PM
It sounds like a cop-out but I can tell you that while Airmen might work late occassionally, as a SNCO, I get phone calls early in the morning and/or late at night and often do work at home AFTER a days work. If I take 10-15 minutes between "important" meetings or whatever, I don't feel the least bit guilty.

Mr. Happy
07-25-2013, 01:08 PM
I don't have a problem with leaders breaking away for a haircut. At least in mx, SNCOs and Officers manage their own time while on duty, whereas the Airmen have their time managed for them. Airmen have shift change to look forward to, whereas I went home after my work was caught up, most times 11-13 hours after I started.

Airmen can look forward to the pros/cons of RHIP as a SNCO (or officer), but in the mean time should keep being good Airmen. I know, I'm just a meany and life isn't fair.


The way I look at it, as a chief, I'm never truly off duty, so occasionally I might go grab a hair cut outside of lunch hours when the crowd is less. Mainly so I can get in there and out quickly. I don't do it often, but sometimes I do depending on my schedule. Most Airmen aren't taking those 0400 phone calls on a Saturday morning...I'm never really off duty.

E4RUMOR
07-25-2013, 01:13 PM
Based off my work schedule, I am off Monday and Tuesday every other week. In the Corps, it goes without saying that a Marine is expected to have a fresh haircut at the start of the new work week. Thus I find the hypocrisy astounding when I pass by a barber shop Monday morning or afternoon and witness senior Staff NCOs and Officers in line for a fresh cut. It's expected that junior Marines, NCOs, and Staff NCOs be squared away come the new work week. Excuses that an individual didn't have time on the weekend don't fly. You are expected to make time. So if a Lance Corporal can do the right thing, it's pretty damn embarrassing when their Master Sergeant can't.

And we wonder what's wrong with the caliber of service members these days. It's called direct reflection of leadership.

I guess the more rank you get, the more the rules don't seem to apply. Special exceptions are in order, I reckon.

E4RUMOR
07-25-2013, 01:26 PM
I don't have a problem with leaders breaking away for a haircut. At least in mx, SNCOs and Officers manage their own time while on duty, whereas the Airmen have their time managed for them. Airmen have shift change to look forward to, whereas I went home after my work was caught up, most times 11-13 hours after I started.

Airmen can look forward to the pros/cons of RHIP as a SNCO (or officer), but in the mean time should keep being good Airmen. I know, I'm just a meany and life isn't fair.

And no offense, but I have a serious problem with this mentality. Leadership and rank are about setting the example, and servitude. Higher rank is established to broaden not only the responsibilities, but also the scope of positive influence and assistance to those subordinate to you in order to mold them into the most productive and successful individuals they can possibly be.

That, in and of itself, should be a privilege. The only other privileges you "rate" are a higher paycheck, retirement after 20 years, and maybe a parking spot at the BX.

Actions speak louder than words. You can't enforce what you don't follow, and hiding behind seniority or rank is as transparent as the wind itself.

TJMAC77SP
07-25-2013, 02:02 PM
The way I look at it, as a chief, I'm never truly off duty, so occasionally I might go grab a hair cut outside of lunch hours when the crowd is less. Mainly so I can get in there and out quickly. I don't do it often, but sometimes I do depending on my schedule. Most Airmen aren't taking those 0400 phone calls on a Saturday morning...I'm never really off duty.

I view it in a similar fashion and also equally recognize that the 'equitable treatment' card as specious as it can be will always be thrown.

Of course it should go without saying that if the SNCO is ducking away in lieu of something that needs his/her attention or when their physical presence is called for in a particular place during the duty day then they are failing. For instance, as a cop when I was a flight chief I didn't get haircuts on duty but when I worked in an office I would get one during the day.

CYBERFX1024
07-25-2013, 02:29 PM
Based off my work schedule, I am off Monday and Tuesday every other week. In the Corps, it goes without saying that a Marine is expected to have a fresh haircut at the start of the new work week. Thus I find the hypocrisy astounding when I pass by a barber shop Monday morning or afternoon and witness senior Staff NCOs and Officers in line for a fresh cut. It's expected that junior Marines, NCOs, and Staff NCOs be squared away come the new work week. Excuses that an individual didn't have time on the weekend don't fly. You are expected to make time. So if a Lance Corporal can do the right thing, it's pretty damn embarrassing when their Master Sergeant can't.
And we wonder what's wrong with the caliber of service members these days. It's called direct reflection of leadership.
I guess the more rank you get, the more the rules don't seem to apply. Special exceptions are in order, I reckon.

When I was in the Fleet we always got our haircuts on the weekend so we can be fresh for monday morning pt. But when I PCS'd to Parris Island Headquarters Battalion part of my job was showing up to the parade deck on family day (Thursday) and graduation (Friday). They allowed you to get a haircut on Tuesday or Wednesday so we could look fresh and clean on those days. But you got one on Monday then by Thursday your hair would have grown out.

BOSS302
07-25-2013, 03:06 PM
This next part is probably going to open a can of worms, but it needs to be addressed. While standing with the other gate sentries on a night of duty, we engaged in a conversation about proper liberty attire. I personally brought up the issue of female Marines and their liberty attire. After discussing the issue, we realized that none of us really knew the property liberty attire policy or regulations for female Marines. On a continual basis we would see couples drive up to the gate, with the female passenger in the vehicle dressed in a very immodest or revealing manner. It would always surprise us to discover that she was a United States Marine. From our first impression, she could have been a dependent wife, or a girlfriend. In my personal opinion, there is something wrong with this. If a male Marine is able to be distinguished out in town as being a Marine by his haircut or his liberty attire (provided he's wearing proper liberty attire), why is it that a female Marine is not? Before the retaliation begins, I will give you a perfect example in regards to what I write.

The same night of our conversation, we had a female Gunnery Sergeant drive up to the gate. I asked her where she was coming from, and she informed me she was coming from a bar out in town. While talking to her, I couldn't help but notice her attire. She was wearing a tube top, and very short shorts with high heels. I couldn't help but think to myself, "There's no way she's a gunny." Instantly my respect for her as a woman and a Marine dropped. When asked if she knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines, or Marines in general, she became very offended, and explained to us that female Marines are different than male Marines. She said that male Marines are recognizable out in town because of our hair cuts, therefore, we should be held to a higher standard in regards to the way they dress. However, she explained that it's hard for people to spot a female Marine because there's really nothing that distinguishes her from any other female, and therefore, it really doesn't matter what they wear. She summed up her argument with, "I'm a Gunnery Sergeant. I've been in the Marine Corps for 14 years, so I'll wear whatever I want."

For the remainder of the night, every female Marine that drove through the gate, I would stop and ask them if they knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines. Some of them were dressed in ways that would make you blush, and others were dressed in a modest manner. Imagine my surprise when none of them knew.

After a bit of research, here's the conclusion: there is no liberty attire regulations for female Marines. There are simply proper liberty attire regulations for Marines. Here is an excerpt from the order:

"Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with the Marine Corps." MCO P10120.28 PAR 1005 CH 5 (a).

The important thing to remember here is that we are Marines. We set the standard for others to emulate. We are told on a continual basis that it doesn't matter whether we are male or female; we're all Marines. If this is the case, then we should all be held to the same standard, and that standard should be enforced. If a male Marine is recognized on liberty as being a Marine, there should be something that sets a female Marine apart from other females. We as NCO's and unit leaders need to understand the impact of we make when we choose to dress in an inappropriate manner. What happens when a junior Marine goes out to a club on liberty, and runs across his/her NCO or SNCO at the same club? What happens when he/she sees her/him dressed in a way that is sexually suggestive and immodest in nature? They will never look at that NCO or SNCO the same way, or with the same respect again, because they are seeing parts of their bodies that our usually covered in uniform.

In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar.

I'd have to disagree with the Gunnery Sergeant I mentioned earlier. Marines are Marines, Gunnery Sergeant. How long we have been in, the rank on our collar, and whether we are females or males does not change the fact there are rules in regulations which we are expected to abide by. Especially if we are in a leadership position where we are supposed to set the example for our junior Marines to emulate.
It's time to stand up for what is right NCOs. Even if it is unpopular. The Marine Corps is not a popularity contest. It's an fighting organization steeped in pride and tradition. We are living up to the legacy of those that have passed before us on the battlefront. Let's not lose that discipline and legacy back here in the garrison. Semper Fidelis.

.

20+Years
07-25-2013, 03:38 PM
Wow...the AF isn't quite like the Corps, is it? No focus here Monday morning on fresh haircuts, just staying n regs be it Mon, Weds or Fri. I get my haircut every 10 -13 days on a normal basis. If there is a ceremony or class or something I have a role in, I might freshen up for it.

coloringoutsidethelines
07-25-2013, 04:16 PM
For about the millionth time I'm glad I didn't let those Marine recruiters strong arm me into joining them.

MACHINE666
07-25-2013, 04:56 PM
So, I've always wondered...haircuts on or off duty? I use to think SNCOs that disappeared for nearly an hour, and showed up with a fresh haircut, were sketchy. If an Airman or NCO can't dip out during a lull to get a haircut, why a SNCO? Over time I've changed that though process. I've welcomed the break from the BS of the day to get a haircut and clear my head. I normally return focused and ready to re-attack the issues at hand.

So I ask, what are your thoughts? RHIP or douchy?

It's not just douchey, it's uber-douchey.

When I was an NCO at my final military assignment, I was doing the job of a Senior NCO and even a Public Health Officer at times. As many taskers as I had, I made sure to do whatever errands I needed to do during my lunch hour, or on the weekend. Pay bills, get haircuts, get oil changed, whatever. As much gold-bricking and grab-assing that I see a lot of Senior NCOs doing (i.e. Top 3, AFSA, etc), they can lead by example and get their haircuts like everyone else can....

Juggs
07-25-2013, 05:25 PM
I don't have a problem with leaders breaking away for a haircut. At least in mx, SNCOs and Officers manage their own time while on duty, whereas the Airmen have their time managed for them. Airmen have shift change to look forward to, whereas I went home after my work was caught up, most times 11-13 hours after I started.

Airmen can look forward to the pros/cons of RHIP as a SNCO (or officer), but in the mean time should keep being good Airmen. I know, I'm just a meany and life isn't fair.

So you don't believe in being the example for Airmen to follow. Cool got it.

LogDog
07-25-2013, 06:25 PM
I never had a problem with people getting a haircut on duty time provided they weren't just using it to goof off. I encouraged my troops to use their lunch hour to get a haircut and if they were a little late coming back it was not problem provided they had a haircut. Giving them the opportunity to be within regs meant I didn't have to deal with a haircut problem later and problems I didn't have to deal with meant I could do my work.

Not every work section in the AF can afford to allow their airmen to get a haircut during duty hours but for those that can, I don't see a problem. It's up to the supervisors to make it work.

Pullinteeth
07-25-2013, 06:37 PM
I only let my favorites get a haircut during duty hours. The rest can wait until after duty hours.

Shaken1976
07-25-2013, 07:02 PM
How about trips to the bank, pharmacy, shoppette, daycare, BX, and all the other places like that?

Venus
07-25-2013, 07:08 PM
Most of the time being deployed we always had a guy with shears and it always being God awful hot we all usually got the old take it all off, lot easier to take care of and always between sorties or down days. Lot easier to keep clean also and put sun block on too. Then looking to the other extreme spec ops guys deployed I worked with looking like the Duck Dynasty guys.

wildman
07-25-2013, 07:11 PM
If there were slack time periods during duty hours I had no objection to allowing one to go get a hair cut or anything else for that matter. I had no problems in this area either seeing as how I have worn my hair in the form of a buzz since I've been five years old. I'd tell my folks I'll pay for you to get a hair cut but you use my barber and you get my style of cut. Never did have anyone take me up on it.

Always,
Wildman

TSgt"M"
07-25-2013, 08:57 PM
I had a boss that always said "It grows on military time, I'll get it cut on military time." Let me do the same. No problems with it.

imported_AFKILO7
07-25-2013, 09:20 PM
I've been fortunate in my career. When I was working on flight (cop speak for security or law enforcement) I got a haircut once a week. Usually before the beginning of a new rotation. When I worked at HQ Airnorth I got a haircut every Saturday or Sunday depending on my work schedule. I've never gotten a haircut during my duty day, and I don't shit kittens when other people do.

I was at a get together with NCO's from various AFSC's and we began talking about the differences of our jobs. I told them the motto of the AF should change to: Air Force, personal experiences may vary. We each have different jobs within the overall mission. I don't have the time or inclination to worry about what you do.

I didn't always think this way, I guess I just grew up and realized that as long as I am fair and take care of my people that is all that matters. Nowadays I don't have to worry about haircuts...I'm bald.

CYBERFX1024
07-25-2013, 09:40 PM
Most of the time being deployed we always had a guy with shears and it always being God awful hot we all usually got the old take it all off, lot easier to take care of and always between sorties or down days. Lot easier to keep clean also and put sun block on too. Then looking to the other extreme spec ops guys deployed I worked with looking like the Duck Dynasty guys.

You are lucky then. Because last time I deployed to Iraq as a Marine we had 1stSgt/E-8 who would literally scream at us about haircuts out at our little FOB in BFE. Then when we got haircut by one guy in our platoon he would harp on that saying "it looks like someone put a bowl on your head and cut it your hair." Gosh I hated that guy so much.

USMC0341
07-25-2013, 10:12 PM
You are lucky then. Because last time I deployed to Iraq as a Marine we had 1stSgt/E-8 who would literally scream at us about haircuts out at our little FOB in BFE. Then when we got haircut by one guy in our platoon he would harp on that saying "it looks like someone put a bowl on your head and cut it your hair." Gosh I hated that guy so much.

I had a douche gunny like that, fucker never went outside the wire but sure enough when you came in that dickweed was on haircut patrol.

VFFTSGT
07-25-2013, 10:19 PM
So, I've always wondered...haircuts on or off duty? I use to think SNCOs that disappeared for nearly an hour, and showed up with a fresh haircut, were sketchy. If an Airman or NCO can't dip out during a lull to get a haircut, why a SNCO? Over time I've changed that though process. I've welcomed the break from the BS of the day to get a haircut and clear my head. I normally return focused and ready to re-attack the issues at hand.

So I ask, what are your thoughts? RHIP or douchy?

You know, they took RHIP out of the PDG...

But as others said, the general 'policy' should be equal because there is no reason one person can go during duty hours and another cannot. Granted, depending on what is going on there may be the occasional exception.


The way I look at it, as a chief, I'm never truly off duty, so occasionally I might go grab a hair cut outside of lunch hours when the crowd is less. Mainly so I can get in there and out quickly. I don't do it often, but sometimes I do depending on my schedule. Most Airmen aren't taking those 0400 phone calls on a Saturday morning...I'm never really off duty.

I have heard this justification as a serious excuse from a SNCO as to why it is okay to show up to work whenever they want....0830, 0900, etc... If you showed up to work at 0730 though, you probably wouldn't have to work until 1800. Most work done after hours is also work that could wait until the next day. Yeah, I know commanders think they should be bowed down to at the sound of their voice, but 9.9 times out of 10 it is something that can wait until the next day.

We live in a culture of instant gratification and this concept spews over into leadership styles.

imnohero
07-25-2013, 10:47 PM
Oh, where do I start?

"I hated it when I was an airman, but now that I'm a SNCO..." nice, you didn't like it when your supervisors used RHIP, but now your going to do it and who cares what the airman think, right? Way to lead!

"SNCO's are on duty 24/7"....umm, no you aren't. Except in emergencies involving loss of life, get a haircut off duty like the rest of us, nothing you do is THAT important that you have to take duty time and as you say, it makes your life more convenient. Again, RHIP...do as I say not as I do...SNCO's need special privileges. Again, such leadership by example...what should I say?

This is any other excuse of special privilege is bull, and these sorts of things are all on my list of "Things I won't do as an NCO."

NCOs/SNCOs are there to serve their troops and make the troops lives and jobs easier, not the other way around.

BRUWIN
07-25-2013, 11:48 PM
Oh, where do I start?

"I hated it when I was an airman, but now that I'm a SNCO..." nice, you didn't like it when your supervisors used RHIP, but now your going to do it and who cares what the airman think, right? Way to lead!

"SNCO's are on duty 24/7"....umm, no you aren't. Except in emergencies involving loss of life, get a haircut off duty like the rest of us, nothing you do is THAT important that you have to take duty time and as you say, it makes your life more convenient. Again, RHIP...do as I say not as I do...SNCO's need special privileges. Again, such leadership by example...what should I say?

This is any other excuse of special privilege is bull, and these sorts of things are all on my list of "Things I won't do as an NCO."

NCOs/SNCOs are there to serve their troops and make the troops lives and jobs easier, not the other way around.

In other words SNCOs are there to molly coddle Airmen. I've told the story about the SSgt that had a problem with me coming into work at 0800hrs (unbeknownst to him I was at work until 2130hrs the previous night) and telling his supervisor "I wish I was on SMSgt Bruwin's schedule." So yeah...that day I had his supervisor put him on my work schedule. It lasted until about two hours after he was supposed to go home and I got tired of seeing the sad sack puss on his face so I finally let him go home. He never mentioned my schedule again. And...if I had time during my day I would get a haircut if I needed it. If I left it until after I got off work the barber could be closed.

Airmen need to think before they just spout shit off and also be careful of what they wish for.

Deploy Me Please
07-25-2013, 11:57 PM
As long as you are in regs and the mission is getting done. I don't care when you get your hair cut.

imnohero
07-26-2013, 12:10 AM
In other words SNCOs are there to molly coddle Airmen. I've told the story about the SSgt that had a problem with me coming into work at 0800hrs (unbeknownst to him I was at work until 2130hrs the previous night) and telling his supervisor "I wish I was on SMSgt Bruwin's schedule." So yeah...that day I had his supervisor put him on my work schedule. It lasted until about two hours after he was supposed to go home and I got tired of seeing the sad sack puss on his face so I finally let him go home. He never mentioned my schedule again. And...if I had time during my day I would get a haircut if I needed it. If I left it until after I got off work the barber could be closed.

Airmen need to think before they just spout shit off and also be careful of what they wish for.

No, not "molly coddle". I don't know how you got that out of my post.

Mr. Happy
07-26-2013, 12:29 AM
Going to get haircuts during the duty day aside, I'd like to hear of one military person (not even just Air Force...sorry Marine Corps) who has done a full enlistment and has NEVER once ran a personal errand of any kind while on duty time. We're getting hung up on the haircut aspect of this discussion, but that is besides the point. The true argument here is those who have to ask permission to do so, and those who don't. Whether it's for a haircut or not, or going to take care of something else, to deny otherwise I would raise a humongous bullshit flag. Every so often I do get a haircut, but I can assure the critics here that the Airmen in my shop are more than accommodated ALL the time to take care of business and family matters on duty time when mission allows; plus, when the flying is done, it is generally my folks who I bust out early on Friday.

imnohero
07-26-2013, 12:36 AM
The true argument here is those who have to ask permission to do so, and those who don't.

THIS!

And, i would suggest, that it's about the abuse of not having to ask permission.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-26-2013, 01:01 AM
So you don't believe in being the example for Airmen to follow. Cool got it.

My example to the Airmen is that when you are working 12 or 13 hour days, then you should smartly manage your time and balance work life/hours with family time. You don't want Airmen to learn balance and take care of family? Cool, got it!

Juggs
07-26-2013, 01:12 AM
My example to the Airmen is that when you are working 12 or 13 hour days, then you should smartly manage your time and balance work life/hours with family time. You don't want Airmen to learn balance and take care of family? Cool, got it!

By not allowing them to manage time? You're promoting a do as I say not as I do atmosphere.

Airborne
07-26-2013, 01:23 AM
You actually get more bang for your buck if you let someone go during non lunch hours. THey might only be gone for 30 minutes as opposed to the 60 minutes during lunch.

imported_chipotleboy
07-26-2013, 01:37 AM
So when somebody says they're going out of the office for an hour to "get a little trim", they're actually leaving to get a haircut?

Yeah, right.

TWilliams
07-26-2013, 02:01 AM
I don't think there is any problem getting a haircut during duty hours. The military requires you to keep your hair within standards so why not? I bet you that your first military haircut was during duty hours just like mine. Welcome to basic training :) There used to be military barbers as well, MOS# 22 Barber. Now why would there be military barbers if no one was allowed to get a haircut during duty hours? As long as the mission is getting done and everyone gets the same opportunity, I really don't see a problem with it and I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with someone else getting a haircut just because they choose to always do it during non-duty hours. Every work center is different so it is not reasonable to force everyone to do things just one way. Part of good leadership is empowering your subordinates and trusting them to manage their time to meet expectations. Airmen are still learning how to be in the air force and need closer supervision than NCOs and Officers which is why it is reasonable for the unequal treatment in my opinion.

http://www.coulthart.com/134/mos.htm

Measure Man
07-26-2013, 02:05 AM
It really depends on the nature of your job. Some jobs require people there during duty hours, i.e. customer service.

Others, it's kind of like, not that important when you're there as long as you manage your workload.

This is why it's sometimes easier for SNCOs to be able to go during duty hours, but not Airmen...if the Airmen are going to bitch about it, I'm sure they are more than welcome to get a haircut on duty hours in exchange for working the SNCOs hours. I know very few SNCOs that are out the door immediately at 1601 hrs.

Sprad
07-26-2013, 02:11 AM
I say perception. Are you seeing these individuals leave their duty location to get a haircut or you just seeing them at lunch time or daylight hours? Not everyone works the normal office hours. I have been in uniform but hadn't started the duty day or for that matter just got off work and got a haircut. I personally do not get a haircut while I am on duty, I believe you should get it done on your time. I do believe in RHIP and it does have its place. But I have also seen people overuse or misuse the idea of RHIP.

Measure Man
07-26-2013, 02:40 AM
Not everyone works the normal office hours.
I believe you should get it done on your time.

Some peoples "normal duty hours" have them sitting around playing cards, waiting for something to break....only to get called in at 2 am on "their time" when something does.

Again...it's the nature of the work that dictates whether or not this is appropriate.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 03:14 AM
No, not "molly coddle". I don't know how you got that out of my post.

You said you need your SNCOs around all day while your there...that's molly coddling. It's a good thing I'm not still in because if some Airman mentioned to me that I needed to be around the entire time they are there then they damn sure aren't going to enjoy my micromanaging while I'm there. You want me there? Fine...but like I said...be careful what you wish for because things will be my way or the highway. How's that for RHIP? Many a time I walked away from a job to eliminate being a royal pain in the ass and allow for my troops to gain experience on their own when I knew they had a handle on it and didn't need me around barking orders. Had I stuck around could have things gone quicker? Yeah...but it wouldn't help them in the long run.

I don't know...when I was a young troop I didn't worry about what my Chief or SNCOs were doing. I would see Chief's/SNCOs come and go during the course of a day all the time and it never really dawned on me to question it. I was always pretty sure their leadership on a handle on what they were up to....just like those same Chief's and SNCOs had a good handle on what I was doing.

imnohero
07-26-2013, 03:21 AM
You said you need your SNCOs around all day while your there...

Nope, I didn't say that either.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 03:33 AM
NCOs/SNCOs are there to serve their troops and make the troops lives and jobs easier

How else am I supposed to interpret this then? Do your work for you maybe? Wipe up the oil you left on the hanger floor so you can go home early? That'll be the freakin day.

imnohero
07-26-2013, 03:44 AM
I'm so glad I'm retired.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 03:52 AM
I'm so glad I'm retired.

I am so glad I am retired to. I was getting kind of sick of the "Airmen are so hard done by" mentality. I've heard the "SNCOs are there to serve their Airmen" statement before and although I agree with it to some extent I was not there to kiss their ass or make things easy for them. Things weren't made easy for me when I was a young troop and I came out a whole lot better for it.

Airborne
07-26-2013, 04:02 AM
It really depends on the nature of your job. Some jobs require people there during duty hours, i.e. customer service.

Others, it's kind of like, not that important when you're there as long as you manage your workload.

This is why it's sometimes easier for SNCOs to be able to go during duty hours, but not Airmen...if the Airmen are going to bitch about it, I'm sure they are more than welcome to get a haircut on duty hours in exchange for working the SNCOs hours. I know very few SNCOs that are out the door immediately at 1601 hrs.

A SNCO that is consistently working "overtime" is not managing their time wisely. There is a not so fine line between dedication and poor time management. The air force wheels keep turning even when youre not there. The wife and kid wheels are a bit more delicate...

Measure Man
07-26-2013, 04:03 AM
A SNCO that is consistently working "overtime" is not managing their time wisely. There is a not so fine line between dedication and poor time management. The air force wheels keep turning even when youre not there. The wife and kid wheels are a bit more delicate...

...a SNCO duties do not end at 1600...time management has little to do with it

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 05:38 AM
...a SNCO duties do not end at 1600...time management has little to do with it

You know...some of the biggest gripes that were noted on many Unit Climate Assessments I was privy to read was "lack of recognition" and the "time wasted on EPRs." So I stopped those gripes and I worked on Awards and EPRs AFTER duty hours. Many EPRs I rewrote for TSgt's and SSgt's just because I knew the stupid things the head shed would send them back for, and since I knew they were stupid, I didn't need my NCOs wasting their time with them so I always took care of it. I normally had about 5-10 EPRs on my desk at any given time. I couldn't stand writing any of those things during regular duty hours because of all the interruptions. Many of my menial paperwork chores were left until AFTER duty hours. This gave me plenty of time during the day...if I wasn't at some stupid meeting...to interrupt the mission and ask dumb assed questions. Which by the way, was another gripe on those Unit Climate Assessments. In fact...the only gripe I didn't see was that I was never around even though I did sometimes get my haircut during duty hours.

E4RUMOR
07-26-2013, 05:50 AM
In other words SNCOs are there to molly coddle Airmen. I've told the story about the SSgt that had a problem with me coming into work at 0800hrs (unbeknownst to him I was at work until 2130hrs the previous night) and telling his supervisor "I wish I was on SMSgt Bruwin's schedule." So yeah...that day I had his supervisor put him on my work schedule. It lasted until about two hours after he was supposed to go home and I got tired of seeing the sad sack puss on his face so I finally let him go home. He never mentioned my schedule again. And...if I had time during my day I would get a haircut if I needed it. If I left it until after I got off work the barber could be closed.

Airmen need to think before they just spout shit off and also be careful of what they wish for.

Well, I would daresay that your mentality in your response is part of the problem.

Coddling and mentoring are two different things. If you intertwine the both, it will cause a bit of frustration.

We expect a certain type of individual upon completion of basic training or boot camp. We know that a recent boot camp graduate will do the right thing when they hit the operating forces/fleet, because its all they know.

Corruption and breakdown occurs when they observe leadership not following the basic fundamentals, traditions, and regulations that have been drilled into them the months prior. Juniors will always learn more from action than any pub, manual, or written order. And they are more apt and willing to follow example than word of mouth. Ergo, if you are jacked up, more than likely those working for you will be jacked up as well.

It's not important that you work longer hours than those below you. Longer hours goes with the territory of increased rank and responsibility. True dedication to a mission can be defined by the fact that even though you work later, you are still there the next day before your subordinates.

If you had been doing the right thing all along, your SSgt wouldn't have even had ground to make assumptions about your work ethic/hours in the first place.

The higher up in rank you go, the more visibility your subordinates have of you. No action should be taken that causes your subordinates to question your dedication to the mission or them. Once they begin making negative observations about you, which are work related, you can simply chalk it up to an area which needs to be addressed or worked on. Furthermore, they don't even need to know your workload or hours. Using them as justification to ensure credibility is frankly immature and the very definition of an excuse. And a weak excuse a that.

As a Leader you SHOULD be at work first, and SHOULD be the last one to leave.

Maybe that's just the Marine leadership principles I've been taught and practice speaking. Or maybe the Air Force and Marine Corps differ on the definition of leadership.

Senior Master Sergeant Bruwin, I'm a Sergeant (E-5) with only ten years, and I grasp this simple concept. I would have expected a little more from an E-8. Even if you are in the Air Force.

Lastly, the days I work I am up at 0300, get to work at 0445, and don't leave until 1945-2000, sometimes later. And that's at an overseas duty station with a wife and two kids.

E4RUMOR
07-26-2013, 05:59 AM
He was a Chief, higher than a E-8 and a Damn fine one.

Just going off the story and tirade. Correction noted. Tango. And you obviously know him better, but that highlighted quote came off as sounding more like a disgruntled, entitled individual than a "Damn fine one".

E4RUMOR
07-26-2013, 06:16 AM
I'll let God judge him. In my book he's good shit.

Well it is an open Forum. I have no doubt he's done a great deal of good in the service of his country, and has made a positive impact during his time in. That alone merits respect. But you would think that someone with that much experience and time would recognize the importance of setting the example and avoiding excuse.

I just think its mind-blowing to question why our subordinates act the way they do these days, yet refuse to look in the mirror and acknowledge our own faults or "contributions" to the decay based off our actions or lack thereof.

And it's not judgement as it is more about providing a different perspective.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 06:25 AM
If you had been doing the right thing all along, your SSgt wouldn't have even had ground to make assumptions about your work ethic/hours in the first place.



LOL...there is no way he should have been assuming anything. He already been in trouble for being given time off (no leave...just free time off given by a Major) to take care of his wife after she had major surgery. He was brought back early after it was discovered he was spending that time gambling in Reno. He was part of the great SSgt giveaway back in the early 2000s. They were an entitled bunch that yapped about how bad they had it and didn't understand how good they really had it. I still run into some of them today and although they are of higher rank their attitudes have certainly changed....thankfully.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 06:32 AM
Well it is an open Forum. I have no doubt he's done a great deal of good in the service of his country, and has made a positive impact during his time in. That alone merits respect. But you would think that someone with that much experience and time would recognize the importance of setting the example and avoiding excuse.

I just think its mind-blowing to question why our subordinates act the way they do these days, yet refuse to look in the mirror and acknowledge our own faults or "contributions" to the decay based off our actions or lack thereof.

And it's not judgement as it is more about providing a different perspective.

I'm a civilian now. I am on the clock so I don't get my haircut during duty hours now. To me that is setting the example. If I was still in uniform and I needed a haircut and low and behold I have a few short minutes to get one I would. I also never really had a problem with my troops doing the same as long as they weren't dropping the mission ball. In fact...when I was a MSgt I authorized my troops to get a haircut if they asked and we had time. it was no problem.. When I was a Chief I didn't...that was my MSgt's job to determine if it was feasible. So it wasn't like I was exemplifying a "do as a say not as I do" mentality. I was always very aware that people looked at me...always. And I never authorized anything for myself only. If it was doable for others than it was no problem.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 06:40 AM
Well, I would daresay that your mentality in your response is part of the problem.

Coddling and mentoring are two different things. If you intertwine the both, it will cause a bit of frustration.

We expect a certain type of individual upon completion of basic training or boot camp. We know that a recent boot camp graduate will do the right thing when they hit the operating forces/fleet, because its all they know.

Corruption and breakdown occurs when they observe leadership not following the basic fundamentals, traditions, and regulations that have been drilled into them the months prior. Juniors will always learn more from action than any pub, manual, or written order. And they are more apt and willing to follow example than word of mouth. Ergo, if you are jacked up, more than likely those working for you will be jacked up as well.

It's not important that you work longer hours than those below you. Longer hours goes with the territory of increased rank and responsibility. True dedication to a mission can be defined by the fact that even though you work later, you are still there the next day before your subordinates.

If you had been doing the right thing all along, your SSgt wouldn't have even had ground to make assumptions about your work ethic/hours in the first place.

The higher up in rank you go, the more visibility your subordinates have of you. No action should be taken that causes your subordinates to question your dedication to the mission or them. Once they begin making negative observations about you, which are work related, you can simply chalk it up to an area which needs to be addressed or worked on. Furthermore, they don't even need to know your workload or hours. Using them as justification to ensure credibility is frankly immature and the very definition of an excuse. And a weak excuse a that.

As a Leader you SHOULD be at work first, and SHOULD be the last one to leave.

Maybe that's just the Marine leadership principles I've been taught and practice speaking. Or maybe the Air Force and Marine Corps differ on the definition of leadership.

Senior Master Sergeant Bruwin, I'm a Sergeant (E-5) with only ten years, and I grasp this simple concept. I would have expected a little more from an E-8. Even if you are in the Air Force.

Lastly, the days I work I am up at 0300, get to work at 0445, and don't leave until 1945-2000, sometimes later. And that's at an overseas duty station with a wife and two kids.

You know what...I have a lot of respect for Marines. But not for ones that talk to me like I am a 2 year Airman. I've been around...I know what flies and what don't. I was at the unit level for all of my 30 years except two. I was very used to being around young troops and I know what most expected of me and what flies with them and what doesn't. The few that did have problems with me had problems with others in 100% of the cases. Seriously...100% of those that really did have an issue with me found issues elsewhere also. I can't think of one good Airman that had issues with just me and how I conducted business...at least not to my face. So I pretty much know how to handle situations...I really don't need your unhelpful advice.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
07-26-2013, 08:31 AM
How the hell does a thread about haircuts get so serious?

Perhaps this is part of our problem? Even the simple things have to be complicated for some of us. :-/

VCO
07-26-2013, 08:43 AM
A SNCO that is consistently working "overtime" is not managing their time wisely. There is a not so fine line between dedication and poor time management. The air force wheels keep turning even when youre not there. The wife and kid wheels are a bit more delicate...

Way to regurgitate the company line. I take it you have held every SNCO position in the Air Force and have timed the workload requirements?

VCO
07-26-2013, 09:04 AM
Well, I would daresay that your mentality in your response is part of the problem.

Coddling and mentoring are two different things. If you intertwine the both, it will cause a bit of frustration.

We expect a certain type of individual upon completion of basic training or boot camp. We know that a recent boot camp graduate will do the right thing when they hit the operating forces/fleet, because its all they know.

Corruption and breakdown occurs when they observe leadership not following the basic fundamentals, traditions, and regulations that have been drilled into them the months prior. Juniors will always learn more from action than any pub, manual, or written order. And they are more apt and willing to follow example than word of mouth. Ergo, if you are jacked up, more than likely those working for you will be jacked up as well.

It's not important that you work longer hours than those below you. Longer hours goes with the territory of increased rank and responsibility. True dedication to a mission can be defined by the fact that even though you work later, you are still there the next day before your subordinates.

If you had been doing the right thing all along, your SSgt wouldn't have even had ground to make assumptions about your work ethic/hours in the first place.

The higher up in rank you go, the more visibility your subordinates have of you. No action should be taken that causes your subordinates to question your dedication to the mission or them. Once they begin making negative observations about you, which are work related, you can simply chalk it up to an area which needs to be addressed or worked on. Furthermore, they don't even need to know your workload or hours. Using them as justification to ensure credibility is frankly immature and the very definition of an excuse. And a weak excuse a that.

As a Leader you SHOULD be at work first, and SHOULD be the last one to leave.

Maybe that's just the Marine leadership principles I've been taught and practice speaking. Or maybe the Air Force and Marine Corps differ on the definition of leadership.

Senior Master Sergeant Bruwin, I'm a Sergeant (E-5) with only ten years, and I grasp this simple concept. I would have expected a little more from an E-8. Even if you are in the Air Force.

Lastly, the days I work I am up at 0300, get to work at 0445, and don't leave until 1945-2000, sometimes later. And that's at an overseas duty station with a wife and two kids.

Sergeant,

The Air Force and Marine Corp have slightly (hugely) different missions and cultures. I'm not saying you are wrong, because you sound like a squared away Marine. However, I've noticed the USMC is very much about appearances above all else. For example, a fictional gunny is always the first in and the last out. He is always sharp, fit, and squared away. While he is on duty, he may or may not do the best job writing/reviewing your fitrep. In fact, he may half-ass it and then goof off the rest of the time he is at work. In contrast, the Air Force Master Sergeant may not be the first in, he may not be super fit, however he is staying late at work ensuring EPRs and awards are squared away for his subordinates.

Who is the better leader?

BOSS302
07-26-2013, 09:26 AM
You know what...I have a lot of respect for Marines. But not for ones that talk to me like I am a 2 year Airman. I've been around...I know what flies and what don't. I was at the unit level for all of my 30 years except two. I was very used to being around young troops and I know what most expected of me and what flies with them and what doesn't. The few that did have problems with me had problems with others in 100% of the cases. Seriously...100% of those that really did have an issue with me found issues elsewhere also. I can't think of one good Airman that had issues with just me and how I conducted business...at least not to my face. So I pretty much know how to handle situations...I really don't need your unhelpful advice.

BRUWIN, The People's Champion.

E4RUMOR
07-26-2013, 12:17 PM
You know what...I have a lot of respect for Marines. But not for ones that talk to me like I am a 2 year Airman. I've been around...I know what flies and what don't. I was at the unit level for all of my 30 years except two. I was very used to being around young troops and I know what most expected of me and what flies with them and what doesn't. The few that did have problems with me had problems with others in 100% of the cases. Seriously...100% of those that really did have an issue with me found issues elsewhere also. I can't think of one good Airman that had issues with just me and how I conducted business...at least not to my face. So I pretty much know how to handle situations...I really don't need your unhelpful advice.


I'm pretty strong headed about my opinions, but I also know it takes a real man to be humble, so if I came across as condescending or out of line, then I apologize.

My intention was to rebuke a statement you made, as I did not agree with it. Your years of service, rank achieved, and experience, which I respect, don't change my opinion in regards to said statement.

My experiences in today's military, and more specifically a branch of service which is arguably the biggest proponent of "suck it the f$&k up", has led me to believe that the former mentality is much less effective than an attitude of compassion, interest, and firmness.

However, it was wrong of me to question your leadership skill based off one statement you made.

Sometimes I need to take my own medicine and respond with a little more maturity and understand that everyone speaks or types things out of frustration from time to time.

Taking the direct remark aimed at you out of the equation, I still stand by the rest of my statement in reference to what I have been taught and believe is the true definition of leadership. And I still think senior enlisted and officers should make the time to get haircuts on the weekend or off duty like they expect of their subordinates. RHIP or the perception of such should not exist when it comes to things required by regulations or Command directed orders.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-26-2013, 12:23 PM
By not allowing them to manage time? You're promoting a do as I say not as I do atmosphere.

My job on active duty was to ensure the Airmen had the expectations, training, tools and other resources needed to do their jobs. Beyond that, I didn't give a fuck what they thought I did during my 12 hour day, or during the 2-3 hours I showed up to work on Saturdays to play catch-up on 100 un-read emails. I was an Airman too once upon a time and didn't think twice about the SNCO or officer who showed up in the middle of the day with a fresh haircut.

Dear Airman, you're NOT entitled to anything you haven't earned. This includes the perks and ass-pain of holding higher rank.

E4RUMOR
07-26-2013, 12:30 PM
My job on active duty was to ensure the Airmen had the expectations, training, tools and other resources needed to do their jobs. Beyond that, I didn't give a fuck what they thought I did during my 12 hour day, or during the 2-3 hours I showed up to work on Saturdays to play catch-up on 100 un-read emails. I was an Airman too once upon a time and didn't think twice about the SNCO or officer who showed up in the middle of the day with a fresh haircut.

Dear Airman, you're NOT entitled to anything you haven't earned. This includes the perks and ass-pain of holding higher rank.

What exactly is your definition of "perks" for holding higher rank?

BOSS302
07-26-2013, 12:36 PM
What exactly is your definition of "perks" for holding higher rank?

What are yours?

Pullinteeth
07-26-2013, 12:53 PM
How the hell does a thread about haircuts get so serious?

Perhaps this is part of our problem? Even the simple things have to be complicated for some of us. :-/

Nope...it is because Marines apparently don't know what a SNCO does...

Chief_KO
07-26-2013, 12:54 PM
As a Chief, I had my team of stylists come to my office...hairstyle, man-pedi, massage. That way I could still check my email and answer the phone.

BOSS302
07-26-2013, 12:57 PM
As a Chief, I had my team of stylists come to my office...hairstyle, man-pedi, massage. That way I could still check my email and answer the phone.

Funny you say that. BRUWIN did the same thing and to this day as a GS-11 Captain-Equivalent he still has it done. Please see below for proof:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi2h2K6D1V8

E4RUMOR
07-26-2013, 12:59 PM
What are yours?

Mentorship, influence, the ability to make a difference, pay increase, more responsibility and the pride of being successful. Things that truly matter.

TREYSLEDGE
07-26-2013, 01:57 PM
I still stand by the rest of my statement in reference to what I have been taught and believe is the true definition of leadership.

The cultural and operational differences between the Air Force and Marine Corps, even between different communities within the Air Force, require that the practice of leadership and the tools needed are different.

If leaders are hell bent on not letting their subordinates get haircuts during duty no matter the situation, then no, they shouldn't either. The leadership tool I would use is that I would not ask my Airmen to do something I would not, and will not deny them something that I take freely.

E4RUMOR: "As a Leader you SHOULD be at work first, and SHOULD be the last one to leave. Maybe that's just the Marine leadership principles I've been taught and practice speaking. Or maybe the Air Force and Marine Corps differ on the definition of leadership."

Leadership by example is an important principle. Being to work first is just a tool to practice this principle, not a principle itself. The leadership tool of being the first to work and last to leave is what your service or unit uses to be good leaders and examples for your junior enlisted and it works. Great! But, in my Air Force community the leadership tool of being first to work is not necessary, feasible or effective in setting the example. Being late is, but not being first.

E4RUMOR: "I'm a Sergeant (E-5) with only ten years, and I grasp this simple concept. I would have expected a little more from an E-8. Even if you are in the Air Force."

As an NCO of 10 years, you have a commendable passion for leadership. Using the tools the Marine Corps taught you and are used widely in your careeer field should make you a good leader. But, practicing proper leadership is a never ending process of learning, adapting your leadership tools to the situation, and knowing that there is not just one way to be a good leader. Which also means that making assumptions of what tools a good leader may use in area of which you do not have experience is unadvisable. I would have expected a little more from an E-5. Even if you are in the Marine Corps. :)

I appreciate your candor in your responses and I again commend your passion for good leadership. Thanks for helping us in the Air Force see a different point of view. Hopefully you'll learn from our point of view as well.

Sergeant eNYgma
07-26-2013, 01:57 PM
Wow...the AF isn't quite like the Corps, is it? No focus here Monday morning on fresh haircuts, just staying n regs be it Mon, Weds or Fri. I get my haircut every 10 -13 days on a normal basis. If there is a ceremony or class or something I have a role in, I might freshen up for it.

Same here, about the same, try not to go past 14 though I'll look like a caveman........

TREYSLEDGE
07-26-2013, 02:03 PM
What exactly is your definition of "perks" for holding higher rank?

In regards to the original thread topic, I would say one perk of a higher rank is the ability to have a more flexible schedule and adapt your calendar to the mission requirements and priorities. If this allows you to go get a haircut in the afternoon, because you know you have another bullshit planning meeting that evening that will last until after the barber shop closes, then great. As long as you don't deny your subordinates the same opportunities when they have them.

SomeRandomGuy
07-26-2013, 02:20 PM
This thread reminds me of one of the dumbest things I ever heard a SNCO say. The head MTL at Keesler started off his welcome briefing by asking all of us brand new Amn a question.

MTL: How often does a good Airman need a haircut?
Amn: Every two weeks?
MTL: No
Different Amn: Once per week?
MTL: No still wrong
Different Amn: How often then does a good Amn need a haircut sir?
MTL: A good Amn never "NEEDS" a haircut

Me: *whispers to person beside me*, "Does that mean I should get my hair cut everyday?"

TWilliams
07-26-2013, 04:13 PM
And I still think senior enlisted and officers should make the time to get haircuts on the weekend or off duty like they expect of their subordinates. RHIP or the perception of such should not exist when it comes to things required by regulations or Command directed orders.

I think the bolded part of the statement is key here. Many leaders do not require their subordinates to get haircuts on the weekend or off duty, therefore there is no double standard or any leader setting a bad example by also getting their haircut during duty hours if the mission allows it. I'm not sure if it is just a culture difference between the two branches, but in the Air Force, leaders usually empower supervisors to make these types of decisions for their troops. Junior enlisted have no supervision responsibility and therefore are not empowered to decide on their own that they can just leave their work to go get a haircut. There is no Air Force Instruction that I am aware of that states a member cannot get a haircut during duty hours.

Juggs
07-26-2013, 04:55 PM
My job on active duty was to ensure the Airmen had the expectations, training, tools and other resources needed to do their jobs. Beyond that, I didn't give a fuck what they thought I did during my 12 hour day, or during the 2-3 hours I showed up to work on Saturdays to play catch-up on 100 un-read emails. I was an Airman too once upon a time and didn't think twice about the SNCO or officer who showed up in the middle of the day with a fresh haircut.

Dear Airman, you're NOT entitled to anything you haven't earned. This includes the perks and ass-pain of holding higher rank.

So not teaching them time management isn't part if it? Cool, I guess my SNCOs were a little different concerning mentoring and teaching. Glad I was a TACP.

Pullinteeth
07-26-2013, 05:24 PM
Taking the direct remark aimed at you out of the equation, I still stand by the rest of my statement in reference to what I have been taught and believe is the true definition of leadership. And I still think senior enlisted and officers should make the time to get haircuts on the weekend or off duty like they expect of their subordinates. RHIP or the perception of such should not exist when it comes to things required by regulations or Command directed orders.

Go ahead then...show me an AFI that says I can't get my hair cut during duty hours... and if you think it is a valuable use of a SNCOs time to combat the possiblity of a perception, you really must have crappy leaders. I for one don't have time for that crap. What you think it your business, I lead by example and if you don't like my example or don't understand what I do, I will take the time to explain it to you but I don't have the time to spend combating the POSSIBLITY that you might mispercieve something...

OtisRNeedleman
07-26-2013, 07:41 PM
I have no problem with people getting a haircut, buying some uniform items at clothing sales, going to children's doctor appointment, volunteering, or even going home early. The only thing is that these things need to be balanaced against the mission. If things are slow and the shop can afford to lose a person for a few hours then I say it is ok for the supervisor to let them get some things taken care of. Now with that in mind the mission always comes first. Bottom line is that it is ok to take care of yourself or your airmen as long as you are not unfairly burdening others to accomplish it.

Indeed. That's the way it worked just about everywhere I was. If you needed to do something or go somewhere, as long as things were taken care of, you did it or went wherever you were going. And as already stated sometimes the break away from the office was just the thing to get a recharge.

ttribe
07-26-2013, 07:59 PM
Now that I'm retired, I only need to get the Mullet tuned up about every three months or so. :silly:

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 08:51 PM
BRUWIN, The People's Champion.

Well...I don't want to mislead people and I know you're being sarcastic but I wouldn't call myself "The People's Champion" either. I was kinda somewhere in the middle. There were times I was part of that blue kool aid drinking part of leadership so many here despise, and then there were times I was the rebel that leadership couldn't wait to retire. I picked my battles and didn't go off at everything that came down...although it was tempting.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 08:58 PM
Funny you say that. BRUWIN did the same thing and to this day as a GS-11 Captain-Equivalent he still has it done. Please see below for proof:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi2h2K6D1V8

I have a beard growing now since I can't shave on duty time anymore.

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 09:01 PM
As a Chief, I had my team of stylists come to my office...hairstyle, man-pedi, massage. That way I could still check my email and answer the phone.

LOL...I didn't know you were a Command Chief.

Chief_KO
07-26-2013, 10:25 PM
LOL...I didn't know you were a Command Chief.

Ha ha....nope, but I was CMSAF #15A. My first Chief CAC read "CMSAF" as my rank...didn't quite have the stones (or the stupidity) to park in the CMSAF slot at the BX or club at Andrews though...figured it would be my luck that he or the Mrs would go there that day.

Pullinteeth
07-26-2013, 10:26 PM
Well...I don't want to mislead people and I know you're being sarcastic but I wouldn't call myself "The People's Champion" either. I was kinda somewhere in the middle. There were times I was part of that blue kool aid drinking part of leadership so many here despise, and then there were times I was the rebel that leadership couldn't wait to retire. I picked my battles and didn't go off at everything that came down...although it was tempting.

IMO, that is the sign of a good leader. Some of the SNCOs that work for me think I am a kool-aid drinker at times but they ALWAYS know that if they are in the right, I have their back-even if it isn't what MY supervision thinks is what the AFI says....

MaintChief
07-27-2013, 10:37 AM
It's none of an Airman's business where/when a SNCO is. When I was an Airman I never worried about where my flight chief/superintendent/Chief was, or when they came to work. I was too busy WORKING. Likewise, before I retired, I never found it necessary or important to justify my actions to Amn Snuffy. Amn Snuffy needs to STFU, make it to work on time, learn his/her job, do their job, and stay out of trouble when off duty.
My hair grew on government time, so I got it cut on government time. Likewise, if Amn Snuffy's supervisor allowed them to get their haircut during the duty day, I had no problem with it.

Mainly a dayshift problem. Didn't have this issue on Swings or Mids. For the whiners on dayshift, we'd just bring them to the other shift. It usually corrected their problem.

E4RUMOR
07-27-2013, 01:48 PM
Nope...it is because Marines apparently don't know what a SNCO does...


Go ahead then...show me an AFI that says I can't get my hair cut during duty hours... and if you think it is a valuable use of a SNCOs time to combat the possiblity of a perception, you really must have crappy leaders. I for one don't have time for that crap. What you think it your business, I lead by example and if you don't like my example or don't understand what I do, I will take the time to explain it to you but I don't have the time to spend combating the POSSIBLITY that you might mispercieve something...

I'm not in the Air Force, so I am not familiar with your Air Force regulations.

The funny thing about your challenge is the hidden justification to do something provided there is no Air Force regulation which prohibits said action. In other words, if its not spelled out black and white, there's room to maneuver. I'm intelligent enough to realize, however, if there was an order written, it would probably be written in a way which could be left open to interpretation.

I'm really failing to understand why everyone is going on the defense here, and feels the need to justify their actions or argue them. If you aren't doing anything wrong, and RHIP exists in your mindset, then roll that way.

I'm the outsider here, and I am simply stating that I disagree with the whole RHIP mentality. I disagree that rank entitles you to expect certain actions from your troops, yet not follow the same method to accomplish said action yourself. I read through it, I think it's garbage, and hypocritical.

Someone said they've spent years around junior troops, so they know what flies and what doesn't. Ok. So unless something has changed before 2003, I've listened to junior troops too. In my experience, a couple things ring true when it comes to junior troops:

1) Actions speak louder than words - I can't tell you to make sure you have a fresh haircut Monday morning before showing up to work (requiring you to manage your time from Friday evening through Sunday night to accomplish the task), only to show up myself without one, and get one when its the most convenient during the work day. That's hypocrisy at its finest no matter which way you look at it.

2) Respect is earned, not given - There are three types of leadership styles : Authoritarian, Persuasive, and a mixture of both. The 3rd style works best (personal experience, speaking). Troops will always respect your stripes because the UCMJ makes that mandatory. But true respect is defined by their actions. You come across as a hypocrite, enforcing what you do not follow- You may not care, and justify your own actions in your mind, but their respect for you just lessened that much more. Sure, they'll follow orders because they have to, but that response and sense of urgency carrying out the order will be much slower than one given by someone who has not only their trust as a superior, but person as well. As a good leader I want my Marines to respect not only my rank, but my practices, because I want them to emulate me... So yeah, I give a damn what they may perceive.

Subordinates are often too scared to mention what they perceive as hypocritical action for fear of repercussion... Like having to work their boss's work schedule for a night. That Airman didn't learn anything positive from that action. And he didn't say anything else in the future simply because he didn't want to work the hours his pay grade and job don't rate to work.

Lastly, I'll admit I'm bothered by the insinuation I don't know what SNCOs do.

Personal experience speaking, I have been a Platoon Sergeant, acting Company First Sergeant, and Watch Commander, which are all junior to senior SNCO billets. In each case I performed my duties in an exemplary manner. It's ok, you don't know me, so you wouldn't know that. I just thought I'd clear the air in case there was any doubt I have no idea on the pains of performing monthly counselings, writing proficiency and conduct marks for 30 individuals at a time, putting meritorious promotion packages together, writing award recommendations, writing adverse paperwork, attending meetings, making training schedules, ensuring training is done, sitting on Meririous promotion board panels and casting votes, etc.,

No, I'm fully aware. And RHIP still isn't in my book or practices.

MaintChief
07-27-2013, 02:01 PM
I'm not in the Air Force, so I am not familiar with your Air Force regulations.

The funny thing about your challenge is the hidden justification to do something provided there is no Air Force regulation which prohibits said action. In other words, if its not spelled out black and white, there's room to maneuver. I'm intelligent enough to realize, however, if there was an order written, it would probably be written in a way which could be left open to interpretation.

I'm really failing to understand why everyone is going on the defense here, and feels the need to justify their actions or argue them. If you aren't doing anything wrong, and RHIP exists in your mindset, then roll that way.

I'm the outsider here, and I am simply stating that I disagree with the whole RHIP mentality. I disagree that rank entitles you to expect certain actions from your troops, yet not follow the same method to accomplish said action yourself. I read through it, I think it's garbage, and hypocritical.

Someone said they've spent years around junior troops, so they know what flies and what doesn't. Ok. So unless something has changed before 2003, I've listened to junior troops too. In my experience, a couple things ring true when it comes to junior troops:

1) Actions speak louder than words - I can't tell you to make sure you have a fresh haircut Monday morning before showing up to work (requiring you to manage your time from Friday evening through Sunday night to accomplish the task), only to show up myself without one, and get one when its the most convenient during the work day. That's hypocrisy at its finest no matter which way you look at it.

2) Respect is earned, not given - There are three types of leadership styles : Authoritarian, Persuasive, and a mixture of both. The 3rd style works best (personal experience, speaking). Troops will always respect your stripes because the UCMJ makes that mandatory. But true respect is defined by their actions. You come across as a hypocrite, enforcing what you do not follow- You may not care, and justify your own actions in your mind, but their respect for you just lessened that much more. Sure, they'll follow orders because they have to, but that response and sense of urgency carrying out the order will be much slower than one given by someone who has not only their trust as a superior, but person as well. As a good leader I want my Marines to respect not only my rank, but my practices, because I want them to emulate me... So yeah, I give a damn what they may perceive.

Subordinates are often too scared to mention what they perceive as hypocritical action for fear of repercussion... Like having to work their boss's work schedule for a night. That Airman didn't learn anything positive from that action. And he didn't say anything else in the future simply because he didn't want to work the hours his pay grade and job don't rate to work.

Lastly, I'll admit I'm bothered by the insinuation I don't know what SNCOs do.

Personal experience speaking, I have been a Platoon Sergeant, acting Company First Sergeant, and Watch Commander, which are all junior to senior SNCO billets. In each case I performed my duties in an exemplary manner. It's ok, you don't know me, so you wouldn't know that. I just thought I'd clear the air in case there was any doubt I have no idea on the pains of performing monthly counselings, writing proficiency and conduct marks for 30 individuals at a time, putting meritorious promotion packages together, writing award recommendations, writing adverse paperwork, attending meetings, making training schedules, ensuring training is done, sitting on Meririous promotion board panels and casting votes, etc.,

No, I'm fully aware. And RHIP still isn't in my book or practices.

Why are you in an AF forum? There are serious cultural differences between the Marine Corps and the USAF, and that's not even counting the differences within the USAF between communities. We don't expect fresh haircuts on Mondays, for instance. And for the record, you DO NOT know what USAF SNCO's do. And RHIP does have its place.

RobotChicken
07-27-2013, 03:54 PM
Okay, in all seriousness, since you take the time to post such long diatribes,
Here's a serious answer. RHIP used to be in our PFE, it was something all
Personnel read and understood. It has since been removed. The big picture
Beyond haircuts is a flattening of our chain of command. For instance,
You tell someone in your platoon to secure the perimeter, you don't want
To hear "why" or "I'm gonna ask the LT why." You need them to do as told
As a marine. Now we have these specialist Airman who believe everyone is
Special, vital to mission, has equal voice and say as everyone in chain.
Ask why all the time, don't use chain of command, bitch about everything,
Threaten MEO, IG, Congressional. If we jump their shit, we get called in to
Explain. If jump another supervisors Airman shit, we get called in to explain.
Lots of AF commanders do not give control of enlisted matters to SNCOs,
Hell I had one counsel my guys for every traffic ticket, base grass writeup, etc.
I believe there to be far greater trust between marines, as lives may depend on it.
I believe there to bd far greater respect between your officers and SNCOs.
Without that trust and respect, were left with people following orders
Because of rank and there is a huge difference.

"So 'MAX out decision maker'; is it a 'like or dis'??"

TWilliams
07-27-2013, 03:56 PM
I disagree that rank entitles you to expect certain actions from your troops, yet not follow the same method to accomplish said action yourself. I read through it, I think it's garbage, and hypocritical.

1) Actions speak louder than words - I can't tell you to make sure you have a fresh haircut Monday morning before showing up to work (requiring you to manage your time from Friday evening through Sunday night to accomplish the task), only to show up myself without one, and get one when its the most convenient during the work day. That's hypocrisy at its finest no matter which way you look at it.

I think many people would agree with you that a leader shouldn't be a hypocrite and I don't think anyone is arguing against you on it. It seems like you are failing to realize that the Air Force doesn't require a fresh haircut every week or prohibit people getting haircuts during duty hours and that those of us that are saying it is okay to do, are not saying that we can do it while our troops cannot. Because of this, your comments come across as calling people out when it isn't warranted. Getting a haircut during duty hours isn't even an RHIP issue. I do respect your right to your opinion that haircuts should be done on your own time. While I disagree with you, I don't think that my opinion makes me a hypocrite since I do not prohibit my subordinates from getting haircuts during duty hours while I do.

I am not sure how to do the multiple quote thing so please forgive me for editing your statement, but I just wanted to highlight the portion of it relevant to my comments.

efmbman
07-27-2013, 04:02 PM
I never thought it would be because of reading a thread about haircuts, but in all the time I have been participating on these forums I finally understand why the USAF folks have so many leadership problems, gripes and complaints.

Greg
07-27-2013, 04:18 PM
I never thought it would be because of reading a thread about haircuts, but in all the time I have been participating on these forums I finally understand why the USAF folks have so many leadership problems, gripes and complaints.

Too much time on their hands? :spankme:

LogDog
07-27-2013, 07:07 PM
Comparing Marines to AF is like comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps it's the nature of the different missions the Marines have versus the AF. The Marines are on the ground facing direct combat whereas the AF is located mostly behind the danger zone in a "safe" area. In other words, the Marines meets the enemy face-to-face while the AF stands off and fights via aircraft. Also, with the exception of certain career fields, most of the AF that engages in combat are officers whereas most of the combatants in the Marines and Army are enlisted. The need for imposed discipline on the ground in a combat zone or potential combat zone is necessary for immediate survival. You could impose discipline in while in the combat zone but for their purpose it's better to impose it at home base and continue it wherever they are deployed to. The need for imposed discipline is a "safe" area is less because they aren't in direct combat but support combat operations. If the Marines need to impose discipline on their people then that's their style of leading people. The AF relies more on self-discipline because our missions and operations require a different style of leadership.

As for the haircut, for the AF it's up to the supervisor as to whether they'll allow their troops to get haircuts during duty hours. It's part of their supervisory responsibilities and their ability to manage their personnel towards meeting the unit's mission. Not every section in the AF has the leeway to allow troops to get a haircut on duty hours but for those who can, usually it's not a big deal. It's like giving the a break from work and when they come back they tend to do more and better work than before they left.

As for an SNCO getting a haircut on duty hours, again I have no problem with it. If a SNCO is getting a haircut at the BX in conjunction with his lunch hour and an airman who knows the SNCO sees the SNCO getting a haircut, then the SNCO is setting the example for the airman to follow.

We don't need a reg or unit policy on haircut during duty hours; we just need to trust in our supervisors to make the decision.

LogDog
07-27-2013, 08:30 PM
Exactly, we'll put haircuts in AFIs when Marines put Code Reds in theirs.
Code Red! Code Red!

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/you-cant-handle-the-truth-meme-generator-you-want-the-truth-you-can-t-handle-the-truth-9789dd.jpg

E4RUMOR
07-28-2013, 12:26 AM
So, in light of all the other topics we've covered this far, my original argument / statement was to respond to the original questions posed as the beginning of the thread:



So, I've always wondered...haircuts on or off duty? I use to think SNCOs that disappeared for nearly an hour, and showed up with a fresh haircut, were sketchy. If an Airman or NCO can't dip out during a lull to get a haircut, why a SNCO? Over time I've changed that though process. I've welcomed the break from the BS of the day to get a haircut and clear my head. I normally return focused and ready to re-attack the issues at hand.

So I ask, what are your thoughts? RHIP or douchy?

Answer: Douchy and RHIP are one and the same. And all of my arguments have been based off the original example above. Now, I threw in the whole Monday example, but that's familiarity with the Marine Corps side of things and practices. Take the Monday example out of the equation, the rest of my arguments still stand based off the example given above.


Why are you in an AF forum? There are serious cultural differences between the Marine Corps and the USAF, and that's not even counting the differences within the USAF between communities. We don't expect fresh haircuts on Mondays, for instance. And for the record, you DO NOT know what USAF SNCO's do. And RHIP does have its place.


Okay, in all seriousness, since you take the time to post such long diatribes,
Here's a serious answer. RHIP used to be in our PFE, it was something all
Personnel read and understood. It has since been removed. The big picture
Beyond haircuts is a flattening of our chain of command. For instance,
You tell someone in your platoon to secure the perimeter, you don't want
To hear "why" or "I'm gonna ask the LT why." You need them to do as told
As a marine. Now we have these specialist Airman who believe everyone is
Special, vital to mission, has equal voice and say as everyone in chain.
Ask why all the time, don't use chain of command, bitch about everything,
Threaten MEO, IG, Congressional. If we jump their shit, we get called in to
Explain. If jump another supervisors Airman shit, we get called in to explain.
Lots of AF commanders do not give control of enlisted matters to SNCOs,
Hell I had one counsel my guys for every traffic ticket, base grass writeup, etc.
I believe there to be far greater trust between marines, as lives may depend on it.
I believe there to be far greater respect between your officers and SNCOs.
Without that trust and respect, were left with people following orders
Because of rank and there is a huge difference.

And I would have to agree with you on this. This is a well-worded explanation behind the mentality in Air Force Leadership. There appears to be a break-down of trust between your Officers and SNCOs. That doesn't happen overnight, however. The decay of trust in that relationship happens over a period of time due to consistent failure on the part of one side or the other. Sometimes it's a mixture of both.


I think many people would agree with you that a leader shouldn't be a hypocrite and I don't think anyone is arguing against you on it. It seems like you are failing to realize that the Air Force doesn't require a fresh haircut every week or prohibit people getting haircuts during duty hours and that those of us that are saying it is okay to do, are not saying that we can do it while our troops cannot. Because of this, your comments come across as calling people out when it isn't warranted. Getting a haircut during duty hours isn't even an RHIP issue. I do respect your right to your opinion that haircuts should be done on your own time. While I disagree with you, I don't think that my opinion makes me a hypocrite since I do not prohibit my subordinates from getting haircuts during duty hours while I do.

I am not sure how to do the multiple quote thing so please forgive me for editing your statement, but I just wanted to highlight the portion of it relevant to my comments.

Williams, like I said before in all of my examples: It's only hypocritical if you are preventing your subordinates from doing something that you are doing yourself. If you have no problem letting your Airmen get haircuts during working hours like you, then there's no foul. As far as getting haircuts on our own time.. that's a common practice in the Corps. That's why I made that an example. My argument was that if a superior mandates getting a haircut on liberty as policy, he should follow that policy as well, regardless of rank. If he doesn't then there's nothing wrong with the practice of doing it during working hours. Haircuts, however, are only one area.


Comparing Marines to AF is like comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps it's the nature of the different missions the Marines have versus the AF. The Marines are on the ground facing direct combat whereas the AF is located mostly behind the danger zone in a "safe" area. In other words, the Marines meets the enemy face-to-face while the AF stands off and fights via aircraft. Also, with the exception of certain career fields, most of the AF that engages in combat are officers whereas most of the combatants in the Marines and Army are enlisted. The need for imposed discipline on the ground in a combat zone or potential combat zone is necessary for immediate survival. You could impose discipline in while in the combat zone but for their purpose it's better to impose it at home base and continue it wherever they are deployed to. The need for imposed discipline is a "safe" area is less because they aren't in direct combat but support combat operations. If the Marines need to impose discipline on their people then that's their style of leading people. The AF relies more on self-discipline because our missions and operations require a different style of leadership.

As for the haircut, for the AF it's up to the supervisor as to whether they'll allow their troops to get haircuts during duty hours. It's part of their supervisory responsibilities and their ability to manage their personnel towards meeting the unit's mission. Not every section in the AF has the leeway to allow troops to get a haircut on duty hours but for those who can, usually it's not a big deal. It's like giving the a break from work and when they come back they tend to do more and better work than before they left.

As for an SNCO getting a haircut on duty hours, again I have no problem with it. If a SNCO is getting a haircut at the BX in conjunction with his lunch hour and an airman who knows the SNCO sees the SNCO getting a haircut, then the SNCO is setting the example for the airman to follow.

We don't need a reg or unit policy on haircut during duty hours; we just need to trust in our supervisors to make the decision.

Well stated. I'm intimately familiar with the fact that comparing Air Force and Marine Corps is comparing Apples and Oranges. My younger brother is a SSgt in the Air Force, and we compare similarities and differences from time to time.

Anyway, I'm done debating here. Might inadvertently piss off, or offend, someone else.

LogDog
07-28-2013, 12:44 AM
Well stated. I'm intimately familiar with the fact that comparing Air Force and Marine Corps is comparing Apples and Oranges. My younger brother is a SSgt in the Air Force, and we compare similarities and differences from time to time.

Anyway, I'm done debating here. Might inadvertently piss off, or offend, someone else.
My father retired as a Navy Captain, my brother retired as an Army Master Sergeant, and I retired as a Senior Master Sergeant. I live within a 15 minute walk of Navy base and I have many friends who are active duty/retired Navy (mainly enlisted) and we discuss our experiences in each of our services and career fields so I too have an understanding of the differences between the Navy and AF leadership styles. I was deployed to Croatia during the Balkans crisis and we with the Army but not under their command umbrella. Most of the Army personnel were great but there were a handful who were simply put "Jerks."

I think it really comes down to how leaders, at all levels, handle their people. There will always be those who follow the adage "Do as I say, not as I do" and those who are consistent in their following rules. The best leaders I found were the ones who were flexible with their people allowing them the opportunity to take responsibility for themselves.

Sarkile
07-28-2013, 12:58 AM
Is it true marines cannot grow a beard, even on leave (liberty)?
Back when I was an A1C and leaving Okinawa somebody who was in the Marines questioned me on the two days of growth I had. He seemed disgusted when I tried to explain that I wasn't on duty.

Nickymaz
07-28-2013, 02:05 AM
Wow, 11 pages of haircuts, just awesome.

RobotChicken
07-28-2013, 04:38 AM
BY ORDER OF THE AF PAMPHLET 36-2241
SECRETARY OF THE AIR FORCE
1 JULY 2007
Personnel
PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT GUIDE

Page 454

RHIP—rank has its privileges

"Tell that to 'POTUS'!"

Absinthe Anecdote
07-28-2013, 03:43 PM
Back when I was an A1C and leaving Okinawa somebody who was in the Marines questioned me on the two days of growth I had. He seemed disgusted when I tried to explain that I wasn't on duty.

I used to get challenged once in a while for shaving my head completely bald with a razor.

Some crap about if you weren’t naturally bald it was considered faddish. I would refer them to the First Sergeant and would never hear from them again.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-28-2013, 04:00 PM
I used to get challenged once in a while for shaving my head completely bald with a razor.

Some crap about if you weren’t naturally bald it was considered faddish. I would refer them to the First Sergeant and would never hear from them again.

Next time I'd ask them to define FAD. People have been shaving their heads for years. Fads don't last for years.

wildman
07-28-2013, 05:56 PM
Next time I'd ask them to define FAD. People have been shaving their heads for years. Fads don't last for years.

Radical haircuts were a no no for us. It was AFR 35-10 in my day that covered what could and could not be worn. If you weren't naturally bald the razor shave was a no no. I cut mine as close as possible and made sure that I was still within the reg.

Always,
Wildman

LogDog
07-28-2013, 06:58 PM
Radical haircuts were a no no for us. It was AFR 35-10 in my day that covered what could and could not be worn. If you weren't naturally bald the razor shave was a no no. I cut mine as close as possible and made sure that I was still within the reg.

Always,
Wildman
Late 70s, a friend of my was deployed for an exercise and he had gotten a haircut but his commander didn't like the way it looked. So he went back to the barber and had him cut it all off leaving only a stubble but not bald. His commander gave him an Article 15 for doing that.