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technomage1
07-22-2013, 07:25 PM
www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130722/NEWS06/307220031/Former-staff-sergeant-stabbed-avoid-PT-test

"A former staff sergeant at Los Angeles Air Force Base, Calif., tried to get out of her physical training test by recruiting someone stab her in the stomach.

A military judge last month sentenced Alison Mona, 61st Communications Squadron, to 90 days in jail and busted her three ranks, to an E-2, after she pleaded guilty in a special court-martial to filing a false police report and making two false official statements.

Mona told San Diego police Feb. 27 she was grabbing a smoke outside her house before work when she saw someone standing by her car and decided to check it out, according to the charge sheet. “The person pulled my hair, stabbed me in the stomach and ran off,” she reportedly told a detective.

A few days later, on March 6, she offered another account of the stabbing, the charge sheet said. “A man jumped out from the side of the bushes, yanked my hair, pulling my head downward, and shoved what I think was a knife through my side.” She gave a description of the alleged assailant: dark hooded sweater, jeans and dark tennis shoes.

Neither version was true, however.

Monahad enlisted someone to stab her “for the purpose of avoiding her Air Force Physical Training Test,” according to the charging document. The name of the person who stabbed her was redacted.

Following a two-day sentencing hearing, the military judge sentenced Mona to confinement at Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif., reduction in rank to E-2, forfeiture of $1,805, and an official reprimand.

Mona could not be reached by phone, said Leslie Jewell, director of public affairs at Los Angeles Air Force Base. Mona declined a written interview request via U.S. mail, Jewell said.

The prosecution and defense attorneyswould not comment, per Space Command policy, saidLt. Col. Andy Roake, spokesman for Air Force Space Command.

Mona’s commanding officer also couldn’t be reached."

Holy smokes! Further proof PT has gone too far. When people are injuring themselves to get out of testing, the program's emphasis really needs to be reexamined. I don't condone what she did, but good grief....

Shaken1976
07-22-2013, 07:30 PM
I just finished reading that earlier... That kind of thought never crossed my mind. I mean seriously. I don't like pain. What if the person hit you just right and you bled out.

Measure Man
07-22-2013, 07:32 PM
Crazy.....guess she don't have to worry about PT ruining her career anymore.

Shaken1976
07-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Crazy.....guess she don't have to worry about PT ruining her career anymore.

That gets her out of the waist measurement. You can reduce your waist... I am proof. 3 inches in 3 months. I busted my ass to do it but I did it.

imported_oih82w8
07-22-2013, 07:37 PM
Go hang from the "chin-up" bars for a while, it will straighten out your back and add about half an inch, which will move you up a little on the weight limit...not that you need it. I went from 6' 2" to 6' 2.5" and "passed" the BMI, back in the day.

20+Years
07-22-2013, 07:53 PM
height doesn't matter now... same standard for all males/females.

I wouldn't have went to that extent to avoid a test.... for a few days of quarters maybe....

mikezulu1
07-22-2013, 07:53 PM
PT has gone to far? How about laziness and inability to meet standards has gone too far. You know when you test, you know what you have to score to pass. Does it suck? Sure but suck it up, knock it out and press on. I enjoy running as much as I enjoy a stick in the eye, but I know that I need a 13:36 to pass and I make it happen. The USAF seems like its becoming more of a welfare service then a military branch, everyone wants the benifits but...wait i have to stay in shape?? thats BS. I'm no PT GOD by any means but barring some sort of medical condition, it doesnt take much effort to meet the standards for a 75.

Shaken1976
07-22-2013, 08:00 PM
PT has gone to far? How about laziness and inability to meet standards has gone too far. You know when you test, you know what you have to score to pass. Does it suck? Sure but suck it up, knock it out and press on. I enjoy running as much as I enjoy a stick in the eye, but I know that I need a 13:36 to pass and I make it happen. The USAF seems like its becoming more of a welfare service then a military branch, everyone wants the benifits but...wait i have to stay in shape?? thats BS. I'm no PT GOD by any means but barring some sort of medical condition, it doesnt take much effort to meet the standards for a 75.


I busted my ass for the last three months since my failure to pass. I lost 3 inches off my waist and was consistently doing 45 sit ups in a minute with no problem. Had a good rythem. Then today I panicked and lost my cool. Stuff happenes sometimes. Would I ever intentiionally hurt myself to avoid PT? No freaking way. I know though that someone can work hard and see results. I see them in the way my clothes fit and when I look in the mirror. I had no idea it was 3 inches. I thought more like 1.5-2. I was ecstatic with 3 inches.

technomage1
07-22-2013, 08:14 PM
PT has gone to far? How about laziness and inability to meet standards has gone too far. You know when you test, you know what you have to score to pass. Does it suck? Sure but suck it up, knock it out and press on. I enjoy running as much as I enjoy a stick in the eye, but I know that I need a 13:36 to pass and I make it happen. The USAF seems like its becoming more of a welfare service then a military branch, everyone wants the benifits but...wait i have to stay in shape?? thats BS. I'm no PT GOD by any means but barring some sort of medical condition, it doesnt take much effort to meet the standards for a 75.

I don't disagree, it's just that I think PT is being emphasized far more than it should.

Shaken1976
07-22-2013, 08:17 PM
I don't disagree, it's just that I think PT is being emphasized far more than it should.

Which is driving people to take drastic measures. We had a TSgt with 20 years in forge his test. Another guy on base supposedly broke his foot on purpose.

commguy228
07-22-2013, 08:21 PM
Which is driving people to take drastic measures. We had a TSgt with 20 years in forge his test. Another guy on base supposedly broke his foot on purpose.

We had a TSgt with a line for MSgt forge her test. She eventually got to retire as a SrA.

20+Years
07-22-2013, 08:23 PM
Ouch, I just saw someone in trouble for forging results of a pt test. Sounds way too much like Jr. High and a report card.

Shaken1976
07-22-2013, 08:24 PM
Ouch, I just saw someone in trouble for forging results of a pt test. Sounds way too much like Jr. High and a report card.

We never get to touch our papers. I have no clue how people can pull it off.

Bunch
07-22-2013, 09:01 PM
Just one single change to the PT test could alleviate the amount of stress this causes in the airmen. Get rid of the waist measurement portion. I don't know if that was a factor at play here but it sure would go a long way in reducing the panic this test is causing to a lot of people.

technomage1
07-22-2013, 09:33 PM
J
Just one single change to the PT test could alleviate the amount of stress this causes in the airmen. Get rid of the waist measurement portion. I don't know if that was a factor at play here but it sure would go a long way in reducing the panic this test is causing to a lot of people.

I agree! I don't think the waist is fair at all. I struggle to pass because I'm tall. I look ok in uniform, yet I know a guy who is 5' 2" and has a 36" waist who looks like a butterball.

Bunch
07-22-2013, 09:59 PM
J

I agree! I don't think the waist is fair at all. I struggle to pass because I'm tall. I look ok in uniform, yet I know a guy who is 5' 2" and has a 36" waist who looks like a butterball.

I'm tall but skinny, God gift to me since I was born. I can honestly tell you that I don't do as much PT as many people that do it because of waist issues.

efmbman
07-22-2013, 10:01 PM
I don't disagree, it's just that I think PT is being emphasized far more than it should.


Which is driving people to take drastic measures. We had a TSgt with 20 years in forge his test. Another guy on base supposedly broke his foot on purpose.

Regardless of how much the PT is emphasized, it is not an excuse for cheating and certainly not an excuse for having someone stab you in the stomach. I am not accusing anyone here - so no defensive arguments needed... but think about it for a sec.

If the pressure applied from the PT/fitness requirement is enough to have an airman go over to the dark side and forget all the honor and oaths taken, what is that same airmen likely to do in the pressure of combat. That's how I see it, and I am sure many of the posters here will see it much differently.

Bunch
07-22-2013, 11:26 PM
Regardless of how much the PT is emphasized, it is not an excuse for cheating and certainly not an excuse for having someone stab you in the stomach. I am not accusing anyone here - so no defensive arguments needed... but think about it for a sec.

If the pressure applied from the PT/fitness requirement is enough to have an airman go over to the dark side and forget all the honor and oaths taken, what is that same airmen likely to do in the pressure of combat. That's how I see it, and I am sure many of the posters here will see it much differently.

I understand your point but I will always bring it back to, is it necessary? Did we lose any wars and/or not completed the mission prior to these fitness standards? Did you see people stressing about PT the way they do now?

The Cooler
07-22-2013, 11:40 PM
i'm not sure what's confusing.. PT isn't going anywhere. it's a simple black and white method of cutting personnel. fail 4.. and adios. we are downsizing. as far as the waist measurement.. not only is it an image thing but excessive fat around the midsection is an indicator of a lot of potential health problems. instead of wasting time thinking about how ridiculous the hoops are.. just jump through them. it's all a game.

efmbman
07-22-2013, 11:41 PM
I understand your point but I will always bring it back to, is it necessary? Did we lose any wars and/or not completed the mission prior to these fitness standards? Did you see people stressing about PT the way they do now?

Touche indeed. There is no book answer solution except to say that the regulation will win. I was 22 years in the Army and I thought it was a huge mistake to lessen standards not only for PT, but also for professional military education, during the wars. Recently, since we are ending our adventures, the Army announced all those standards are back in full force effective "yesterday". Lots of folks got used to the lesser "standard" and were caught overweight, unable to pass the PT test. Fair? Not at all. But it was also unfair to lessen the standard in the first place. It was also unrealistic for those that were caught to expect that the actual standard would not come back! The Army is the Army, the AF is the AF, etc. Rules will be bent and relaxed when it suits the powers that be, and brought back seemingly on a whim. It is not designed to be logical. The worse part is that the services will lose a great many people with a technical skill set that will take years to replace. The whole mess erodes confidence in the leadership and leads to apathy and discontent.

Long story short: people are stressing because what was once the standard was changed. Now the standard is changed back, so get right. Not conforming will help all the services draw down - they would rather separate you for a PT failure than go through a RIF.

BRUWIN
07-23-2013, 12:18 AM
I'm still looking for someone to shoot me with an RPG prior to my next Sexual Assault training brief. Unfortunately...the guy I got is booked up.

technomage1
07-23-2013, 12:37 AM
Touche indeed. There is no book answer solution except to say that the regulation will win. I was 22 years in the Army and I thought it was a huge mistake to lessen standards not only for PT, but also for professional military education, during the wars. Recently, since we are ending our adventures, the Army announced all those standards are back in full force effective "yesterday". Lots of folks got used to the lesser "standard" and were caught overweight, unable to pass the PT test. Fair? Not at all. But it was also unfair to lessen the standard in the first place. It was also unrealistic for those that were caught to expect that the actual standard would not come back! The Army is the Army, the AF is the AF, etc. Rules will be bent and relaxed when it suits the powers that be, and brought back seemingly on a whim. It is not designed to be logical. The worse part is that the services will lose a great many people with a technical skill set that will take years to replace. The whole mess erodes confidence in the leadership and leads to apathy and discontent.

Long story short: people are stressing because what was once the standard was changed. Now the standard is changed back, so get right. Not conforming will help all the services draw down - they would rather separate you for a PT failure than go through a RIF.

Fair enough for the Army,I suppose, but in the AF the standard got a lot tougher during the same timeframe.

I'd love to go back to the weigh in and bike test that didn't mean a darn thing that we had prior to 2003.

efmbman
07-23-2013, 12:44 AM
Fair enough for the Army,I suppose, but in the AF the standard got a lot tougher during the same timeframe.

I'd love to go back to the weigh in and bike test that didn't mean a darn thing that we had prior to 2003.

Not sure there is an accurate scale to make a comparison, but how much tougher? And how long were airmen allowed before the new standards were implemented?

technomage1
07-23-2013, 12:54 AM
Not sure there is an accurate scale to make a comparison, but how much tougher? And how long were airmen allowed before the new standards were implemented?

The problem with it is the standard, at least as far as the waist, is unfair. If they taped us the way the army did, it would be ok, but they don't. I cannot physically get full points. My hip structure won't allow it. They measure over bone right above the hip bone. So I'm stuck losing nearly half my points and there isn't a thing I can do. I have a problem with that. God help me if I get put on a restrictive profile because I'm done.

And before, if you failed, you had to take a class. No EPR markdown. No getting kicked out. Zip. Now it's a career ender.

imported_AFKILO7
07-23-2013, 01:30 AM
For the past 10 years I have consistently taped between 37-38 on my waist. I max out my P/U and S/U and my run goes between 11:00-11:45. This year my goal was to break a 90 and to complete the goruck.com heavy. So I had been PT'ing my ass off and completely changed my diet. I had a plan and I was working out five-to six times a week. The week prior to my PT test, during unit PT I tore the meniscus in my left knee. I am immediately put on a profile where I can only do the waist measurement. I put the test off for a couple weeks and REALLY cut my diet. I always thought I would never get below a 37...I taped at a 36. I just had surgery and I am still dieting, although not to the extreme I was those last two weeks. I will go back to that diet leading up to the test because it worked.

I realize now that my diet was really stopping me, it had nothing to do with my bone structure, it was all mental.

*Please understand I am not saying everyone is the same, I've seen some people that legitimately were physically at a disadvantage*

PT GOD
07-23-2013, 01:44 AM
I cannot physically get full points. My hip structure won't allow it. .

I do know one thing, i've never seen a fat skeleton. Little known FACT, all human skeleton structures are the exact same...so there is no reason to complain about having "fat hip bones" that is just ridiculous..work on getting rid of the FAT that is on top of your hip bones..its easy. I have less than zero percent body fat. Some may say its impossible to have less than zero percent body, but its not...and its easy to get. If you will follow my simple rules you too can stop being fat and lying to yourself about your skeleton being fat.
1. Drink nothing but water...ever
2. Never eat salt or high sodium foods
3. Never eat fast food...NEVER
4. Workout at least 4 hours per day, 1 hour cardio, 1 hour cross training, 2 hours lifting
5. Sleep at least 10 hours every night
6. Eat 6 full meals a day, eat meal must take place no later than 3 hours after the last meal
7. Full meal now means 400-500 calories
8. Meals must consist of lean protein, a few complex carbs at a minimum such as unsweetened sweet potato, some healthy fats and no sugar

Follow that..and in a few months...your fat bones will have lost weight..SIMPLE!!!

Deploy Me Please
07-23-2013, 01:46 AM
You can't really blame the PT program for making SSgt Mona stupid. I have heard of people doing dumb stuff to get out of just about anything. Recalls, work, deployments, weekend duty, room inspections, marriage, etc...

PT GOD
07-23-2013, 01:51 AM
Not sure there is an accurate scale to make a comparison, but how much tougher? And how long were airmen allowed before the new standards were implemented?

Do not let them fool you, these standards have been around for like 8 YEARS!!! They even gave people like 4 years to get use to it before putting it on your annual performance report, these people have nobody to blame but themselves and are now saying its unfair...I will tell you whats not fair..that we sill have have fatties in the USAF!!! Thats not fair.nobody wants to look at a fattie...anyone with more than a 35 in waist is an embarrassment to the uniform!! Have some self pride people!! get in shape or get out...

fufu
07-23-2013, 03:37 AM
I do know one thing, i've never seen a fat skeleton. Little known FACT, all human skeleton structures are the exact same...so there is no reason to complain about having "fat hip bones" that is just ridiculous..work on getting rid of the FAT that is on top of your hip bones..its easy. I have less than zero percent body fat. Some may say its impossible to have less than zero percent body, but its not...and its easy to get. If you will follow my simple rules you too can stop being fat and lying to yourself about your skeleton being fat.
1. Drink nothing but water...ever
2. Never eat salt or high sodium foods
3. Never eat fast food...NEVER
4. Workout at least 4 hours per day, 1 hour cardio, 1 hour cross training, 2 hours lifting
5. Sleep at least 10 hours every night
6. Eat 6 full meals a day, eat meal must take place no later than 3 hours after the last meal
7. Full meal now means 400-500 calories
8. Meals must consist of lean protein, a few complex carbs at a minimum such as unsweetened sweet potato, some healthy fats and no sugar

Follow that..and in a few months...your fat bones will have lost weight..SIMPLE!!!

That's called surviving not living. I did it for 2-3 years....did I lose weight? Yes. Was I happier? No. I want to enjoy my Double Decker Taco and Busch tall boys.

CrustySMSgt
07-23-2013, 04:46 AM
Seriously? a couple people commit crimes instead of getting off their asses and putting in the work (and putting down the donuts) to pass the test and the problem is with the system?!?!?

While I understand a VERY FEW people have LEGITIMATE issues that make them have problems passing, the VAST majority of those I've dealt with have one problem... their lack of effort.

CrustySMSgt
07-23-2013, 04:52 AM
Do not let them fool you, these standards have been around for like 8 YEARS!!! They even gave people like 4 years to get use to it before putting it on your annual performance report, these people have nobody to blame but themselves and are now saying its unfair...I will tell you whats not fair..that we sill have have fatties in the USAF!!! Thats not fair.nobody wants to look at a fattie...anyone with more than a 35 in waist is an embarrassment to the uniform!! Have some self pride people!! get in shape or get out...

You don't often make sense... but you get a LIKE from me on this one!

Drackore
07-23-2013, 05:12 AM
PT God, the Troll of all Troll speaks the truth. I am definitely not a fan of our PT program. I am not a fan of how we enforce the program, and I am not a fan of the harsh fallout for failing (and it's gotten to the point where if you score a 75-79.9 some CCs put you on FIP anyways, mark you down on EPRs, etc). There is no fix people. We have to have a PT program and there has to be some consequences to failing. Start toning down any rhetoric or making new regs that give CCs absolutely no flexibility at all...you don't just eliminate the overzealous, you will disable anyone that tries to be flexible. Good or bad...no one will do this.

The bottom line is you just have to get into shape, stay in shape, and realize that for almost 10 years now this has been the AF. We really have to just get used to it. I hate it...I really do, but it is time to get used to it.

And that is what I tell my people. Stop whining, it won't change. Create a routine and do it and stick to it and you won't even realize it's a problem.

garhkal
07-23-2013, 06:18 AM
Holy smokes! Further proof PT has gone too far. When people are injuring themselves to get out of testing, the program's emphasis really needs to be reexamined. I don't condone what she did, but good grief....

How is any of this the fault of the PT program, and not someone messed up in the head or just looking for ways out of doing pt?


Which is driving people to take drastic measures. We had a TSgt with 20 years in forge his test. Another guy on base supposedly broke his foot on purpose.

And how did he forge his test? As for that guy who broke his foot on purpose, hope he got his ass busted down for damaging govt property and malingering.


You can't really blame the PT program for making SSgt Mona stupid. I have heard of people doing dumb stuff to get out of just about anything. Recalls, work, deployments, weekend duty, room inspections, marriage, etc...

Exactly. People have been looking for ways to get out of everything they can. Does not mean there is a problem with the thing they are tryig to get out of.


I am not a fan of how we enforce the program, and I am not a fan of the harsh fallout for failing (and it's gotten to the point where if you score a 75-79.9 some CCs put you on FIP anyways, mark you down on EPRs, etc).

In some ways on the harshness i agree. Fail any portion, it does not matter how well you do in the others, you FAIL and have a failure on your record. But unless we let people fail one, but do outstanding in the other 2 aspects to get their 'ave score up' to pass, it won't matter.
And as for your in brackets comment, i knew 2 Commanding officers who also directed people to go on our FEP (fitness enhancing program) if you passed but with only a Sat grade...

Juggs
07-23-2013, 09:41 AM
No it hasn't gone to far. Just an over abundance of lazy pussies.

technomage1
07-23-2013, 11:57 AM
For full disclosure, I scored 91 on my last test. Most of the points I lost were on the waist. I make my BMI, not that it matters anymore, but you're not talking to a widebody here. I also run half marathons, to give you an idea of fitness level and emphasis. My training for that takes 3-4 hours a week of running. So yeah, I'm there.

I have problems with a test that causes me to eat lettuce leaves in fear of gaining an ounce while I make BMI and look good in uniform, and my 5'2" collegue can (and does) eat whatever he wants, looks like a butterball, and still makes the tape no problem.

I have problems with the emphasis on the test. People are harming themselves to get out of the test. I don't condone what they did, but when was the last time you ever heard someone harming themselves to get out of a CDC end of course exam? They don't, because while there are consequences to failing CDCs once they are not as draconian as a single PT failure. I've known people to do dangerous things to themselves to pass, from dehydration to taking over the counter (legal) supplements that nearly gave one a heart attack. While there should be consequences for failure, why are they so harsh? Why does PT - and only PT - have a separate block on the EPR? We lasted for 50 years as an AF without it.

Shaken1976
07-23-2013, 12:04 PM
i'm not sure what's confusing.. PT isn't going anywhere. it's a simple black and white method of cutting personnel. fail 4.. and adios. we are downsizing. as far as the waist measurement.. not only is it an image thing but excessive fat around the midsection is an indicator of a lot of potential health problems. instead of wasting time thinking about how ridiculous the hoops are.. just jump through them. it's all a game.

You are correct about excessive fat. However, a friend of mine who has a TINY frame and is a good 4 inches shorter than me is ALWAYS going to have a smaller waist. If I had a 27 inch waist like she does I would look emaciated. Just for fun we measured our wrists, ankles, and other places. My wrist is an entire inch bigger than hers. There should be different waist measurements for different heights plain and simple. OR they should take more measurements to figure out what your waist should be. Bone structure plays a large part in it. My rib cage is 35 inches and my hips are 39. My waist is 33.5 and I am working to get it down to about 32. But I would look ridiculous with 27 or 29.

Shaken1976
07-23-2013, 12:17 PM
I do know one thing, i've never seen a fat skeleton. Little known FACT, all human skeleton structures are the exact same...so there is no reason to complain about having "fat hip bones" that is just ridiculous..work on getting rid of the FAT that is on top of your hip bones..its easy. I have less than zero percent body fat. Some may say its impossible to have less than zero percent body, but its not...and its easy to get. If you will follow my simple rules you too can stop being fat and lying to yourself about your skeleton being fat.
1. Drink nothing but water...ever
2. Never eat salt or high sodium foods
3. Never eat fast food...NEVER
4. Workout at least 4 hours per day, 1 hour cardio, 1 hour cross training, 2 hours lifting
5. Sleep at least 10 hours every night
6. Eat 6 full meals a day, eat meal must take place no later than 3 hours after the last meal
7. Full meal now means 400-500 calories
8. Meals must consist of lean protein, a few complex carbs at a minimum such as unsweetened sweet potato, some healthy fats and no sugar

Follow that..and in a few months...your fat bones will have lost weight..SIMPLE!!!

I have followed this mostly for the last three months. No fast food, cut out sweet tea, cut out most sweets (special occasions I MIGHT have one small peice of cake), I don't hit the gym four hours a day because I don't have four hours in my day to be there. But I am there at least an hour and then I take a bike ride every single evening. On days I drop my daughter off at dance I take advantage of the time and go back to the gym. I work out at least 2 hours a day just not all in the gym. I don't eat 6 meals a day but I have added in snacks and cut back my actual meals. I keep almonds on my desk instead of candy. I bring in fruit and veggies for snacks throughout the day. I drink water all day long. I have definately noticed the difference. I have more energy, I lost three inches off my waist, and when I fall into bed I sleep soundly.

Pullinteeth
07-23-2013, 12:44 PM
Do not let them fool you, these standards have been around for like 8 YEARS!!! They even gave people like 4 years to get use to it before putting it on your annual performance report, these people have nobody to blame but themselves and are now saying its unfair...I will tell you whats not fair..that we sill have have fatties in the USAF!!! Thats not fair.nobody wants to look at a fattie...anyone with more than a 35 in waist is an embarrassment to the uniform!! Have some self pride people!! get in shape or get out...

Ah....nice try. The standard has been around for TWO years. Prior to that, you got points even if they didn't meet the minimum... You could score a 90 or above and still fail. You could also fail the abdominal circumference and still get max points if you met the BMI...

PT GOD
07-23-2013, 02:52 PM
Ah....nice try. The standard has been around for TWO years. Prior to that, you got points even if they didn't meet the minimum... You could score a 90 or above and still fail. You could also fail the abdominal circumference and still get max points if you met the BMI...

Don't make excuses, you knew it was coming. If you were one of the ones who choose to be lazy before they had minimums that is still your fault.

Core Value: EXCELLENCE in ALL we do. Do you know what that means, it means get a 100 on that test every single time.

The NCO. As members of the profession of arms, all enlisted members are sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and to obey the orders of all officers appointed over them. NCOs carry out orders of those appointed over them by virtue of the authority vested in their rank. This is done by effectively employing personnel, materiel, equipment, and other resources under their control. They represent the Air Force NCO Corps to all whom they come in contact with. Personal integrity, loyalty, leadership, dedication, and devotion to duty must remain above reproach. As an Air Force leader, manager, and supervisor, the NCO must uphold Air Force policies, traditions, and standards.

Perhaps you should read the enlisted force structure and reevaluate your life. Every single tier is REQUIRED to maintain the highest level of physical fitness. If that is not something you think you can handle, perhaps McDonalds is hiring

technomage1
07-23-2013, 03:33 PM
Ah....nice try. The standard has been around for TWO years. Prior to that, you got points even if they didn't meet the minimum... You could score a 90 or above and still fail. You could also fail the abdominal circumference and still get max points if you met the BMI...

You do realize he's a troll, right?

Giant Voice
07-23-2013, 03:55 PM
Don't make excuses, you knew it was coming. If you were one of the ones who choose to be lazy before they had minimums that is still your fault.

Core Value: EXCELLENCE in ALL we do. Do you know what that means, it means get a 100 on that test every single time.

The NCO. As members of the profession of arms, all enlisted members are sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and to obey the orders of all officers appointed over them. NCOs carry out orders of those appointed over them by virtue of the authority vested in their rank. This is done by effectively employing personnel, materiel, equipment, and other resources under their control. They represent the Air Force NCO Corps to all whom they come in contact with. Personal integrity, loyalty, leadership, dedication, and devotion to duty must remain above reproach. As an Air Force leader, manager, and supervisor, the NCO must uphold Air Force policies, traditions, and standards.

Perhaps you should read the enlisted force structure and reevaluate your life. Every single tier is REQUIRED to maintain the highest level of physical fitness. If that is not something you think you can handle, perhaps McDonalds is hiring

I'll feed this terd. First off. Excellence means being excellent...above 90. That core value doesn't say "Perfection in all we do". Perhaps you should read the the EFS again about the respect for others part. I really wished you worked for me. I guarentee, I could make you PCS or get out. Your life would be miserable.

As far as PT test goes. This is the first year I scored below a 90 in about 5 years(89...not happy). Had a bad day. No other excuses. I only bike ride for my fitness, nothing else. I can normally, easily get a 9 average score for pushups/situps. I'm as strong as I need to be to do my job as good or better than anybody in my field. I'm a flightline troop BTW.

VFFTSGT
07-23-2013, 04:18 PM
PT has gone to far? How about laziness and inability to meet standards has gone too far. You know when you test, you know what you have to score to pass. Does it suck? Sure but suck it up, knock it out and press on. I enjoy running as much as I enjoy a stick in the eye, but I know that I need a 13:36 to pass and I make it happen. The USAF seems like its becoming more of a welfare service then a military branch, everyone wants the benifits but...wait i have to stay in shape?? thats BS. I'm no PT GOD by any means but barring some sort of medical condition, it doesnt take much effort to meet the standards for a 75.

You are right. Aside from medical issues, it doesn't take much...

For the average person, if you just did the test 3 days a week on your own and no other work out, you would pass the test. That's about 20 minutes of your life, 3 days a week.

This story isn't all that surprising though...there have been people who have had people shoot them or they shot themselves to get out of deployments.

Silverback
07-23-2013, 04:27 PM
, I have problems with the emphasis on the test. People are harming themselves to get out of the test. I don't condone what they did, but when was the last time you ever heard someone harming themselves to get out of a CDC end of course exam? They don't, because while there are consequences to failing CDCs once they are not as draconian as a single PT failure. I've known people to do dangerous things to themselves to pass, from dehydration to taking over the counter (legal) supplements that nearly gave one a heart attack. While there should be consequences for failure, why are they so harsh? Why does PT - and only PT - have a separate block on the EPR? We lasted for 50 years as an AF without it.


The PT test has grown out of proportion. I understood the overhaul to the PT program that began in late 2003. We were the laughing stock of the military. Now, the Air Force has gone to the extreme with PT. Don’t get me wrong, I love PT and especially since 3 out of 5 days it is actually part of my job schedule. Still as you mentioned technomage1, a CDC failure should absolutely carry more weight than a PT failure. I would rather have a very good Airman who might struggle with PT than an Airman who is awesome at PT but is useless for everything else.

BOSS302
07-23-2013, 04:28 PM
PT God, the Troll of all Troll speaks the truth. I am definitely not a fan of our PT program. I am not a fan of how we enforce the program, and I am not a fan of the harsh fallout for failing (and it's gotten to the point where if you score a 75-79.9 some CCs put you on FIP anyways, mark you down on EPRs, etc).



How did they do this? The program I understand though still while not agreeing with it; the commander has the authority to simply look at you and say, "Go on the program I don't like the image you present." Fine, whatever. But if they pass the test, then they pass, right? Even with a 77, they pass; they have "Met" on that portion. And where does the commander get off on marking an EPR down? Was this a situation where he told people to do it and they simply said, "Yes sir, will do sir..."? Was he wet-ink changing the ratings himself or having his Chief push-back against raters?

Curious case.

I have never been a fan of the PT program due to the PT standard being THE standard, it seems. That argument has been done to death. And we aren't winning. And hate it as much as we want, it has forced a healthier lifestyle for the rank & file. When I was a new airman I saw so many fatty-fat-fat NCOs and officers. My first NCOIC looked like a red-headed Chris Farley.

I now see a lot of lean, healthy, and active NCOs and officers. Some are too lean - they have that waif look - but at least they don't have a sausage-roll look. A majority of people I see having a problem with PT to this day are (1) New fatty-fat-fat airman who are a product of a lazy generation, (2) Fatty-fat-fat career NCOs and officers who simply refuse to adapt to the writing that is etched in stone on the wall, (3) Fatty-fat-fat people who, for some reason or another, are in a continuous state of injury.

cnstarz
07-23-2013, 04:59 PM
I can't believe there are bafoons on here justifying that USAF PT is too much. USAF PT is a JOKE! If you can't do 43 situps, 34 pushups, run 1.5 miles in 13.14 or under, and keep your waist under 39" (which btw is FAT), then you shouldn't be in the Air Force! Seriously, those are some dismally low standards. a 39 inch waist is downright disgusting and looks gross. You all know at the time you enlist that you are required to adhere to physical fitness standards throughout your entire career, regardless of how hard they are for you. These people wanting out of PT or to lessen the standards even more than they already are, are the same worthless pieces of garbage that will make up any excuse to not have to put in any effort to working. Get your fat ass into a gym and stop making up excuses to be fit. We don't need you, we need people who are dedicated and are mentally strong enough to endure physical activity. For fuck's sake, I can't believe you tools are serious.

Also, to the people that think they're waists are too wide... no, try again. That's just another excuse for your own failure. If anything, having wide hips from the front would mean having a slimmer profile from the side. You're clearly forgetting the possibility of fat storage around your lower back. Instead of making piss-poor attempts at blaming your genetics, take some f'ing initiative and start working out. Wide hips or not, everyone is able to achieve a 33" waist, even 7 foot basketball players whose hips are wider than yours...

Capt Alfredo
07-23-2013, 05:04 PM
I can't believe you tools are serious.

Awesome introduction to the forum; great first post!

/sarcasm

meatbringer
07-23-2013, 05:38 PM
I can't believe there are bafoons on here justifying that USAF PT is too much. USAF PT is a JOKE! If you can't do 43 situps, 34 pushups, run 1.5 miles in 13.14 or under, and keep your waist under 39" (which btw is FAT), then you shouldn't be in the Air Force! Seriously, those are some dismally low standards. a 39 inch waist is downright disgusting and looks gross. You all know at the time you enlist that you are required to adhere to physical fitness standards throughout your entire career, regardless of how hard they are for you. These people wanting out of PT or to lessen the standards even more than they already are, are the same worthless pieces of garbage that will make up any excuse to not have to put in any effort to working. Get your fat ass into a gym and stop making up excuses to be fit. We don't need you, we need people who are dedicated and are mentally strong enough to endure physical activity. For fuck's sake, I can't believe you tools are serious.

Also, to the people that think they're waists are too wide... no, try again. That's just another excuse for your own failure. If anything, having wide hips from the front would mean having a slimmer profile from the side. You're clearly forgetting the possibility of fat storage around your lower back. Instead of making piss-poor attempts at blaming your genetics, take some f'ing initiative and start working out. Wide hips or not, everyone is able to achieve a 33" waist, even 7 foot basketball players whose hips are wider than yours...

This dude hit the nail right on the head. Well put, sir. Sadly, you are wasting your breath with this bunch. They will continue to bitch no matter what. It is all they know.

VFFTSGT
07-23-2013, 06:51 PM
I can't believe there are bafoons on here justifying that USAF PT is too much. USAF PT is a JOKE! If you can't do 43 situps, 34 pushups, run 1.5 miles in 13.14 or under, and keep your waist under 39" (which btw is FAT), then you shouldn't be in the Air Force! Seriously, those are some dismally low standards. a 39 inch waist is downright disgusting and looks gross. You all know at the time you enlist that you are required to adhere to physical fitness standards throughout your entire career, regardless of how hard they are for you. These people wanting out of PT or to lessen the standards even more than they already are, are the same worthless pieces of garbage that will make up any excuse to not have to put in any effort to working. Get your fat ass into a gym and stop making up excuses to be fit. We don't need you, we need people who are dedicated and are mentally strong enough to endure physical activity. For fuck's sake, I can't believe you tools are serious.

Also, to the people that think they're waists are too wide... no, try again. That's just another excuse for your own failure. If anything, having wide hips from the front would mean having a slimmer profile from the side. You're clearly forgetting the possibility of fat storage around your lower back. Instead of making piss-poor attempts at blaming your genetics, take some f'ing initiative and start working out. Wide hips or not, everyone is able to achieve a 33" waist, even 7 foot basketball players whose hips are wider than yours...

Yes, for the average person with no history of medical issues, the PT test is not that difficult.

However, those with a history of medical issues, the PT test and over-zealous commanders who believe everyone with a profile is a malinger can cause serious damage to one's career.

Also, there is the question of why duty performance is not as important as PT. I have never seen anyone get demoted or kicked out because they suck at their JOB; have seen plenty of people get demoted and kicked out for PT.

The PT standards also have constantly changed over the last 8 years. The AFI is constantly updated/changed because the Air Force can never seem to get it right. There have been and continue to be legitimate concerns with the AFI.

Then there is also the increase of injured people in the AF since the PT program started. To many, this is just a bunch of malingers. However, the reality is increased physical activity equals increased risk of injury. And then you have units doing unit PT trying to make everyone a marathon runner and causing even more injuries.

Your post is full of fallacies, very uneducated, and overly generalized. Based on your post, you do not have a clue about how this program is affecting 300,000 people. You only have a clue how it affects you and you are of the mind that nothing is wrong with you so there should be nothing wrong with all of the 300,000 people in the Air Force. I hope you are not in charge of anyone; people of your mindset are dangerous to others.

Juggs
07-23-2013, 06:59 PM
Yes, for the average person with no history of medical issues, the PT test is not that difficult.

However, those with a history of medical issues, the PT test and over-zealous commanders who believe everyone with a profile is a malinger can cause serious damage to one's career.

Also, there is the question of why duty performance is not as important as PT. I have never seen anyone get demoted or kicked out because they suck at their JOB; have seen plenty of people get demoted and kicked out for PT.

The PT standards also have constantly changed over the last 8 years. The AFI is constantly updated/changed because the Air Force can never seem to get it right. There have been and continue to be legitimate concerns with the AFI.

Then there is also the increase of injured people in the AF since the PT program started. To many, this is just a bunch of malingers. However, the reality is increased physical activity equals increased risk of injury. And then you have units doing unit PT trying to make everyone a marathon runner and causing even more injuries.

Your post is full of fallacies, very uneducated, and overly generalized. Based on your post, you do not have a clue about how this program is affecting 300,000 people. You only have a clue how it affects you and you are of the mind that nothing is wrong with you so there should be nothing wrong with all of the 300,000 people in the Air Force. I hope you are not in charge of anyone; people or your mindset are dangerous to others.

Torn acl, torn rotator cuff, jacked up back and I still managed 60 some odd push-ups, 60 something sit-ups and a 10:30ish run. 36-38 waste depending on the day and my crappy diet. The PT test is a joke. Simple dieting and some personal accountability and you can pass.

Capt Alfredo
07-23-2013, 07:58 PM
Torn acl, torn rotator cuff, jacked up back and I still managed 60 some odd push-ups, 60 something sit-ups and a 10:30ish run. 36-38 waste depending on the day and my crappy diet. The PT test is a joke. Simple dieting and some personal accountability and you can pass.

You ran a 10:30 run with a torn ACL? You did 60 push-ups with a torn rotator cuff? I call BS. And if you did it, you're a fool for jeopardizing your future well-being for a stupid test.

VFFTSGT
07-23-2013, 07:58 PM
Torn acl, torn rotator cuff, jacked up back and I still managed 60 some odd push-ups, 60 something sit-ups and a 10:30ish run. 36-38 waste depending on the day and my crappy diet. The PT test is a joke. Simple dieting and some personal accountability and you can pass.

Health ailments from one person cannot be compared to the health ailments of another person. This is even more so when surgeries are involved - every surgery has different outcomes.

I have never failed a PT Test myself, but have seen others who have because they had legitimate medical problems. The biggest problem with medical problems is the length of time it takes the medical hobby shop to care for problems. It took me 2 years to get to the point where I had one major joint surgery. And not counting the time I first complained about it, it took over 1 year to get to the point where I had surgery on another significant joint (and still cannot run 6 months post surgery). Some people (i.e. some commanders, some supervisors) think an Airmen should go to the clinic, take a pill, and all is well.

I have seen other people who have had medical issues (which I have had) and commanders and supervisors thought people were malingering (I have had people think this about me too; yeah, I had surgery b/c I thought it was fun) because they couldn't attend unit PT or scored low on their PT test. It's not just about the test...it's ill-concieved perceptions commanders and supervisors form about others because they cannot attend unit PT and/or score low that end up affecting decisions later. And other people see these ill-concieved perceptions and the damage they cause and decided to 'tough it out' versus seeking medical care.

Shaken1976
07-23-2013, 08:13 PM
Health ailments from one person cannot be compared to the health ailments of another person. This is even more so when surgeries are involved - every surgery has different outcomes.

I have never failed a PT Test myself, but have seen others who have because they had legitimate medical problems. The biggest problem with medical problems is the length of time it takes the medical hobby shop to care for problems. It took me 2 years to get to the point where I had one major joint surgery. And not counting the time I first complained about it, it took over 1 year to get to the point where I had surgery on another significant joint (and still cannot run 6 months post surgery). Some people (i.e. some commanders, some supervisors) think an Airmen should go to the clinic, take a pill, and all is well.

I have seen other people who have had medical issues (which I have had) and commanders and supervisors thought people were malingering (I have had people think this about me too; yeah, I had surgery b/c I thought it was fun) because they couldn't attend unit PT or scored low on their PT test. It's not just about the test...it's ill-concieved perceptions commanders and supervisors form about others because they cannot attend unit PT and/or score low that end up affecting decisions later. And other people see these ill-concieved perceptions and the damage they cause and decided to 'tough it out' versus seeking medical care.

Exactly...I have been fighting on my shoulder for years...only to find out there are tumors that were present during the first MRI at my previous base. I have been here since 09. The tumors have grown and have caused binding in my shoulder. I can't raise my right arm higher than parallel to the ground.

Sergeant eNYgma
07-23-2013, 08:50 PM
PT has gone to far? How about laziness and inability to meet standards has gone too far. You know when you test, you know what you have to score to pass. Does it suck? Sure but suck it up, knock it out and press on. I enjoy running as much as I enjoy a stick in the eye, but I know that I need a 13:36 to pass and I make it happen. The USAF seems like its becoming more of a welfare service then a military branch, everyone wants the benifits but...wait i have to stay in shape?? thats BS. I'm no PT GOD by any means but barring some sort of medical condition, it doesnt take much effort to meet the standards for a 75.

I'm not a PT nazi either...I'm not in great shape by any means hell I have shin splints that I aggravate from time to time and I STILL run and still pass. Have never failed a PT test and don't plan on. Just do it and get the shit over with.........

PT GOD
07-23-2013, 08:54 PM
Exactly...I have been fighting on my shoulder for years...only to find out there are tumors that were present during the first MRI at my previous base. I have been here since 09. The tumors have grown and have caused binding in my shoulder. I can't raise my right arm higher than parallel to the ground.

All your excuses are invalid

http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2009/10/13/200792/amychicago2.jpg

http://armdynamics.com/caffeine/uploads/callouts/Lauren-Pushup-HP.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/5297_498006430261479_503667103_n.jpg

VFFTSGT
07-23-2013, 09:07 PM
All your excuses are invalid

http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2009/10/13/200792/amychicago2.jpg

http://armdynamics.com/caffeine/uploads/callouts/Lauren-Pushup-HP.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/5297_498006430261479_503667103_n.jpg

I know you are a troll, but some people (and you might) actually believe the point you are trying to make here.

However, notice in these pictures all these people seem to have been TREATED. As shaken noted, the AF Medical Hobby Shop has failed to treat her for over 4 years now.

How many months and years AFTER being TREATED did it take to get to this point?

Stalwart
07-23-2013, 09:12 PM
Health ailments from one person cannot be compared to the health ailments of another person. This is even more so when surgeries are involved - every surgery has different outcomes.

Absolutely correct, injury impacts the body differently and no two injuries will heal & recover the same way.

There is the question though of “at what point, if someone cannot pass a ‘basic’ physical fitness test after (x) months of recovery are they – regardless of their proficiency at their job – not fit for active duty in the armed forces?” Understanding that the basic standard is different between the Air Force, Navy, Army & Marine Corps – do you think people should be retained indefinitely if they cannot meet a basic/minimum physical fitness standard. Should that standard be applied differently if the member is 3 years from retirement as opposed to someone with the same injury who has 3 years of service?

**I will caveat this with I think the way the Air Force has one idea of body shape & size that fits both genders, people of various height and build is pretty bad … but I am more focusing on people who get injured.

VFFTSGT
07-23-2013, 09:23 PM
Absolutely correct, injury impacts the body differently and no two injuries will heal & recover the same way.

There is the question though of “at what point, if someone cannot pass a ‘basic’ physical fitness test after (x) months of recovery are they – regardless of their proficiency at their job – not fit for active duty in the armed forces?” Understanding that the basic standard is different between the Air Force, Navy, Army & Marine Corps – do you think people should be retained indefinitely if they cannot meet a basic/minimum physical fitness standard. Should that standard be applied differently if the member is 3 years from retirement as opposed to someone with the same injury who has 3 years of service?

**I will caveat this with I think the way the Air Force has one idea of body shape & size that fits both genders, people of various height and build is pretty bad … but I am more focusing on people who get injured.


Sanctuary period shouldn't come into play (treating people different 3 years from retirement) because if you have a medical condition preventing you from performing your duties (i.e. PT), you should get a medical retirement. However, this may not always be the case under the current process and then I would say yes, they should be treated differently. I say this because the PT program continues to arbitrarily change based on who is in control and our medical care is not always up to par for whatever reason. Currently, if you are put out for not meeting PT standards it is an admin discharge. However, if you get med boarded, circumstances may change and depend on the situation.

Any person ill or injured on active duty should be kept on active duty until the MEMBER and their DOCTOR believe the member has been completely treated (or treated to the best of all modern medicine) and has been allowed sufficient time for recovery. This should include as many medical opinions the member believes is necessary too - i.e. It took 4 different orthopedic doctors to find one that would take the time with my case and properly treat me. 2 said I would have to live with the pain, the third immediately referred me to his colleague, which was #4, which performed surgery and for the most part that joint is pretty normal now. This doesn't include the neurologist, several PCM's, and Physical Therapist I saw. After this point, if they cannot meet the PT standard, then yes, they should be MEDICALLY evaluated and discharged under medical rules not the PT administration separation rules.

At one point I had a PCM say my problem was sciatica and refused additional referrals. I went TDY and got to see the neurologist at that base. They said it was not nerve related and most likely musculoskeletal related and recommend an additional orthopedic referral. Dealt with home base case manager/patient advocate who got me in to see another PCM and got the third and forth ortho referrals.

Stalwart
07-23-2013, 09:39 PM
Any person ill or injured on active duty should be kept on active duty until the MEMBER and his DOCTOR believe the member has been completely treated and has been allowed sufficient time for recovery.
I would argue what the member’s feeling on adequate treatment is irrelevant and that when a medical professional says you should be meeting the standard, the member’s point has been trumped. I can acknowledge that there are military medicine ‘horror stories’, but in general the system works pretty well & if there is disagreement between a service member and a PCM there are ways to get a second and third opinion (I have had to do it myself). Sometimes people have to force the system to work the way it is supposed to.

I also agree, being close to retirement shouldn’t come into play, but have heard more than I could count the number of times I have heard “he was only (x) years from retirement and was forced out because of (y).” Sometimes (y) is PT, body fat, or some other issue. When the Navy changed their system for admin separation based on PT failures I sat an admin separation board for a Sailor with 19 years of service who had not passed a PT test in 11 years and his defense (which we agreed with was valid) was that the Navy had not bothered to process him for separation (as required by instruction) until 3.5 months to his retirement date, the Navy had created this problem based on flimsy enforcement of the standard. Sanctuary did not apply since failure to meet PT standards (in the opinion of the JAG) was not an involuntary separation.

The original poster referenced an Airman who had someone injure her to get out of taking the test. The problem there is the individual and not the PT program.

VFFTSGT
07-23-2013, 09:48 PM
I would argue what the member’s feeling on adequate treatment is irrelevant and that when a medical professional says you should be meeting the standard, the member’s point has been trumped. I can acknowledge that there are military medicine ‘horror stories’, but in general the system works pretty well & if there is disagreement between a service member and a PCM there are ways to get a second and third opinion (I have had to do it myself). Sometimes people have to force the system to work the way it is supposed to.

I also agree, being close to retirement shouldn’t come into play, but have heard more than I could count the number of times I have heard “he was only (x) years from retirement and was forced out because of (y).” Sometimes (y) is PT, body fat, or some other issue. When the Navy changed their system for admin separation based on PT failures I sat an admin separation board for a Sailor with 19 years of service who had not passed a PT test in 11 years and his defense (which we agreed with was valid) was that the Navy had not bothered to process him for separation (as required by instruction) until 3.5 months to his retirement date, the Navy had created this problem based on flimsy enforcement of the standard. Sanctuary did not apply since failure to meet PT standards (in the opinion of the JAG) was not an involuntary separation.

The original poster referenced an Airman who had someone injure her to get out of taking the test. The problem there is the individual and not the PT program.

Yes, the OP was about a stabbing and that is about the member and their stupidity. However, this thread as all threads do morphed into the larger issue.

The member's feeling on adequate treatment is relevant. Generally the system does not work. My case is one example. And I have had a second case, while not as bad, required multiple medical opinions and eventually another surgery on another joint. Shaken1976 also has had multiple issues with our medical system. In fact, everyone that I personally know who has had serious medical issues has had to fight the system in one way or the other to get proper treatment. So no, the system does not generally work well. Look at Colton Reed's story...after the malpractice, the Air Force continued to try to screw him over and he had to get media and congressional support to get the care the Air Force owed him for screwing him up.

Had I let "medical professionals" and their "opinion" handle me as the Air Force 'system' was set-up...I would have ended up on a permanent running profile and med boarded after 1 orthopedic doctor evaluation. I had to fight the 'system' hard to get adequate care.

I know someone that was forced to retire (retire or lose stripe) over PT because a medical professional said nothing was wrong with them. They also got a very high VA rating for that “nothing” too.

So yeah, the member's belief on adequate treatment is a factor. Just like a customer's belief their equipment was fixed properly or service provided was adequate is a factor in everything (i.e. jet, computer, phone, radio, voucher, shipment, etc).

Standard Air Force medical opinion is this: If a PCM cannot hear, feel, or see something wrong in person or through diagnostic tests/radiographs, there is nothing wrong with you. Therefore, Air Force medical opinion is invalid when it comes to them saying you should meet the PT standards.

B1k3rBoi
07-23-2013, 09:49 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the PT test. If anything, it's too easy. I'll bet that if the PT score factored DIRECTLY into your promotion test scores, people would be fit as hell. Let the excuses fly, people having trouble=negative comments. Folks that are in shape=concur.

Don't be surprised if Big Blue says: No CCAF, No Course 14, No Excellent PT score = get the hell out.

imnohero
07-23-2013, 10:12 PM
Ah, the medical system...another favorite of mine. The only people allowed to be more willfully negligent than MPF.

Juggs
07-23-2013, 10:46 PM
You ran a 10:30 run with a torn ACL? You did 60 push-ups with a torn rotator cuff? I call BS. And if you did it, you're a fool for jeopardizing your future well-being for a stupid test.

Call BS, call me a fool. I did my physical therapy and paid attention to my treatment plan. I was uncomfortable but I didn't. I just wasn't a waiver baby. I hated waivers, then I couldn't t jump if I had those. So I manned up

Measure Man
07-23-2013, 10:57 PM
I'll bet that if the PT score factored DIRECTLY into your promotion test scores, people would be fit as hell.

I doubt it...most don't even study their PFE/SKT.

However, I think this might be a solution to the PT thing...just make the points directly translate into promotion points, just like PFE/SKT.

In fact, make a member ineligible for promotion if they score <75 on any one of them..and then make it private between the member and commander...forget all the referral epr and pt test for special duties etc.

technomage1
07-23-2013, 11:12 PM
I doubt it...most don't even study their PFE/SKT.

However, I think this might be a solution to the PT thing...just make the points directly translate into promotion points, just like PFE/SKT.

In fact, make a member ineligible for promotion if they score <75 on any one of them..and then make it private between the member and commander...forget all the referral epr and pt test for special duties etc.

I want to say the average SKT and PDG score for promotion in my career field over the years is 65...this would definitely cause a lot of people to hit the books.

Capt Alfredo
07-23-2013, 11:37 PM
Call BS, call me a fool. I did my physical therapy and paid attention to my treatment plan. I was uncomfortable but I didn't. I just wasn't a waiver baby. I hated waivers, then I couldn't t jump if I had those. So I manned up

You didn't man up. You acted imprudently. You risked more serious injury, which could have jeopardized your ability to stay in the military as well your ability to do your job, all because you didn't want to look like a wimp. It's that attitude that we should rail against, because it's actually very selfish and leads others to disregard injury, not just discomfort.

Capt Alfredo
07-23-2013, 11:40 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the PT test. If anything, it's too easy. I'll bet that if the PT score factored DIRECTLY into your promotion test scores, people would be fit as hell. Let the excuses fly, people having trouble=negative comments. Folks that are in shape=concur.

Don't be surprised if Big Blue says: No CCAF, No Course 14, No Excellent PT score = get the hell out.

The PT test itself, implementation of waist measurement aside, is fine. Why can't all you AF PT apologists get it through your mind that almost no one is against the idea of a PT test or standard, but actually most of the "complainers" are against the disproportionate importance placed on it??
A standard has become the standard.

Juggs
07-23-2013, 11:41 PM
You didn't man up. You acted imprudently. You risked more serious injury, which could have jeopardized your ability to stay in the military as well your ability to do your job, all because you didn't want to look like a wimp. It's that attitude that we should rail against, because it's actually very selfish and leads others to disregard injury, not just discomfort.

Contrary to your opinion, it was a calculated decision based upon ORM and TRA and I came to the conclusion I could complete it. I did and passed. Those injuries had nothing to do with my medical retirement. I had severe headaches and hearing loss that lead to that. My shoulder, knees and back actually feel fine. To many broke ass folks that need to get out anyhow.

I'm against the severity of the consequences of failing, but the test is simply a joke.

B1k3rBoi
07-24-2013, 12:03 AM
I doubt it...most don't even study their PFE/SKT.

However, I think this might be a solution to the PT thing...just make the points directly translate into promotion points, just like PFE/SKT.

In fact, make a member ineligible for promotion if they score <75 on any one of them..and then make it private between the member and commander...forget all the referral epr and pt test for special duties etc.

Exactly! +1

B1k3rBoi
07-24-2013, 12:20 AM
The PT test itself, implementation of waist measurement aside, is fine. Why can't all you AF PT apologists get it through your mind that almost no one is against the idea of a PT test or standard, but actually most of the "complainers" are against the disproportionate importance placed on it??
A standard has become the standard.

What's wrong with the waist measurement? Fatties are walking around with 39" waists and they still get points on their test. Well, I guess you're right, 39" is way too generous. It should be 35" for the MAX. I dislike running as much as the next guy but hey, the Air Force has a Standard so I suck it up and EXCEED the standard. My reward, 2 days off and no testing for a year. Having my Wingman stick me in the gut with a shank doesn't sound very appealing.

grimreaper
07-24-2013, 12:34 AM
What's wrong with the waist measurement? Fatties are walking around with 39" waists and they still get points on their test. Well, I guess you're right, 39" is way too generous. It should be 35" for the MAX.

Looks like someone is trying to move in on PT GOD's schtick.

B1k3rBoi
07-24-2013, 12:56 AM
Looks like someone is trying to move in on PT GOD's schtick.

Not quite, he's twisted. But I do agree with SOME of his points.

Capt Alfredo
07-24-2013, 01:24 AM
What's wrong with the waist measurement? Fatties are walking around with 39" waists and they still get points on their test. Well, I guess you're right, 39" is way too generous. It should be 35" for the MAX. I dislike running as much as the next guy but hey, the Air Force has a Standard so I suck it up and EXCEED the standard. My reward, 2 days off and no testing for a year. Having my Wingman stick me in the gut with a shank doesn't sound very appealing.

I know you're trolling and all, but 39" on a lot of people is not all that fat, the Air Force's "science" notwithstanding. But the bigger (ha!) issue is the incorrect and/or inconsistent administration of the measurement. For something that is *that* career-affecting, we need to do something more precise , or just de-link it from the test.

grimreaper
07-24-2013, 01:38 AM
I know you're trolling and all, but 39" on a lot of people is not all that fat, the Air Force's "science" notwithstanding. But the bigger (ha!) issue is the incorrect and/or inconsistent administration of the measurement. For something that is *that* career-affecting, we need to do something more precise , or just de-link it from the test.

I'm at Hickam and something you always have to deal with is the tradewinds come PT testing time. They FAC makes you go in and do height, weight and waist measurement and then go out to the track. They don't make the call to check the winds at the track until they are at the track and I ended up having my test cancelled 3 days in a row...meaning I had to get height, weight and taped every morning for 3 days straight. To make a long story short, I was measured with a different result all 3 times. That right there is enough to say it needs to go.

Capt Alfredo
07-24-2013, 01:47 AM
I'm at Hickam and something you always have to deal with is the tradewinds come PT testing time. They FAC makes you go in and do height, weight and waist measurement and then go out to the track. They don't make the call to check the winds at the track until they are at the track and I ended up having my test cancelled 3 days in a row...meaning I had to get height, weight and taped every morning for 3 days straight. To make a long story short, I was measured with a different result all 3 times. That right there is enough to say it needs to go.

My point exactly.

VFFTSGT
07-24-2013, 02:23 AM
What's wrong with the waist measurement? Fatties are walking around with 39" waists and they still get points on their test. Well, I guess you're right, 39" is way too generous. It should be 35" for the MAX. I dislike running as much as the next guy but hey, the Air Force has a Standard so I suck it up and EXCEED the standard. My reward, 2 days off and no testing for a year. Having my Wingman stick me in the gut with a shank doesn't sound very appealing.

About 3-4 years ago before the first major change to scoring I tested waist only (due to post surgical profile). I measured 35 and my overall score was a 75. Lowest score I ever had on the test.

Here recently I took my test, waist only (due to another post surgical profile). I measured a 34.5 and scored 100. The highest score I ever had.

What's wrong with the waist measurement? Nothing has ever made sense about it.

Dis_Grunt_Led
07-24-2013, 02:45 AM
So sad! Stories like this make it so hard not to make fun, but really. AF physical fitness is already the lamest of the armed forces and the fact an airman would go that far to get out of a fitness test really makes me wonder what kind of weak-minded, weak-bodied people we're allowing to enlist.

PT GOD
07-24-2013, 02:47 AM
I had to get height, weight and taped every morning for 3 days straight. To make a long story short, I was measured with a different result all 3 times..


My point exactly.

if you were not fat, you would not have to worry about the taping any time. I keep my waist at 30 inches during my cut phase and up to 32 inches in my 10 months of hard core lifting and eating tons of HEALTHY calories. Do i ever worry about the tape..NO, cuase i aint fat, i aint even close to fat..so try that before you fatties complain..just keep that waist well below 35 and stop eating at popeyes for lunch ever day

PT GOD
07-24-2013, 02:49 AM
I know you're trolling and all, but 39" on a lot of people is not all that fat, the Air Force's "science" notwithstanding. But the bigger (ha!) issue is the incorrect and/or inconsistent administration of the measurement. For something that is *that* career-affecting, we need to do something more precise , or just de-link it from the test.

I disagree, any fat is fat..and nobody can have a 39in waist without it being fat. IMO everbodie should have 8 pack abs.

Max Power
07-24-2013, 02:50 AM
So sad! Stories like this make it so hard not to make fun, but really. AF physical fitness is already the lamest of the armed forces and the fact an airman would go that far to get out of a fitness test really makes me wonder what kind of weak-minded, weak-bodied people we're allowing to enlist.

http://www.furyforums.com/forum/attachments/fury-lounge/6163d1295188120-motivational-posters-army-2520fat.jpg

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/attachments/military/81635d1292590760-best-special-operations-forces-us-army-military-demotivational-poster-1242443008.jpg

http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/1248887305477.jpg

Dis_Grunt_Led
07-24-2013, 02:55 AM
National Guard by the way, not Army. Gotta luv 'em.

CrustySMSgt
07-24-2013, 02:59 AM
So sad! Stories like this make it so hard not to make fun, but really. AF physical fitness is already the lamest of the armed forces and the fact an airman would go that far to get out of a fitness test really makes me wonder what kind of weak-minded, weak-bodied people we're allowing to enlist.

Thanks to @Maxpower for posting what I was going to... there are fat bodies in every service... even the Marines (though much fewer than the rest).

Dis_Grunt_Led
07-24-2013, 03:07 AM
True, but bringing this thread back to focus - it's not about body composition, it's about an airman going to such extreme measures to avoid a fitness test, and that's indeed sad. As mentioned before, look at the patches on the sleeve (Nat'l Guard) and the backdrops (mega FOB=pogue). Still love those pics after all these years!

Dis_Grunt_Led
07-24-2013, 03:16 AM
Exactly!!!

VFFTSGT
07-24-2013, 03:31 AM
True, but bringing this thread back to focus - it's not about body composition, it's about an airman going to such extreme measures to avoid a fitness test, and that's indeed sad. As mentioned before, look at the patches on the sleeve (Nat'l Guard) and the backdrops (mega FOB=pogue). Still love those pics after all these years!

Welcome to the forum. All threads here morph into something that the single point made in the OP. No single problem is a one-track problem. Everything is related and can be tied to other issues.

It is pretty much agreed the Airman referenced in the article was retarded, stupid, or any other related term. Not much to discuss there.

But we could discuss/debate, what about the PT Program is flawed, the over-emphasis on it, the great impacts for 'minor errors,' etc. All things that go into people's mind that lead them to do stupid things to pass (or now avoid) the test.

DUI's don't even end a career like PT does. Think about it...A willful action that risks the lives other people does not have a history of being a career ender. People make Chief with DUI's under their belt. A high number of the Chiefs I have known in my time have had DUI's under their belt. But PT...something that does not risk the lives of others, will end a career faster than any other willful and negligent behavior does.

WeaponsTSGT
07-24-2013, 04:49 AM
Yes, the OP was about a stabbing and that is about the member and their stupidity. However, this thread as all threads do morphed into the larger issue.

The member's feeling on adequate treatment is relevant. Generally the system does not work. My case is one example. And I have had a second case, while not as bad, required multiple medical opinions and eventually another surgery on another joint. Shaken1976 also has had multiple issues with our medical system. In fact, everyone that I personally know who has had serious medical issues has had to fight the system in one way or the other to get proper treatment. So no, the system does not generally work well. Look at Colton Reed's story...after the malpractice, the Air Force continued to try to screw him over and he had to get media and congressional support to get the care the Air Force owed him for screwing him up.

Had I let "medical professionals" and their "opinion" handle me as the Air Force 'system' was set-up...I would have ended up on a permanent running profile and med boarded after 1 orthopedic doctor evaluation. I had to fight the 'system' hard to get adequate care.

I know someone that was forced to retire (retire or lose stripe) over PT because a medical professional said nothing was wrong with them. They also got a very high VA rating for that “nothing” too.

So yeah, the member's belief on adequate treatment is a factor. Just like a customer's belief their equipment was fixed properly or service provided was adequate is a factor in everything (i.e. jet, computer, phone, radio, voucher, shipment, etc).

Standard Air Force medical opinion is this: If a PCM cannot hear, feel, or see something wrong in person or through diagnostic tests/radiographs, there is nothing wrong with you. Therefore, Air Force medical opinion is invalid when it comes to them saying you should meet the PT standards.

I have to side with VFF on this one. I'm five back surgeries down with one to go and this came from a misdiagnosis in 2009. Up until last year I had never failed a PT test but when I PCS'd to my current base my new PCM wanted me to attempt the walk test, not wanting to complain and against my better judgement I did, and failed. After which my profile was ammended to waist only, thinking I had grounds to have the fail pulled by my CC, the shirt refused to take my case to the CC saying I should have never done the walk test if I knew I were that bad off. My next surgery is a fussion and my new PCM and shirt both said neither one was going to pursue an MEB since I'm 2 years from retirement, and that besides deployment I can meet all requirements of my career field. Those that think they'll never fail are fooling themselves, especially with the enviroment that is currently in the AF. Prior to my injury I ran mid to high 9's and with max points on my waist, and this was at age 35. I've maintained my waist but can no longer run, do SU's or PU's.

CrustySMSgt
07-24-2013, 06:37 AM
DUI's don't even end a career like PT does. Think about it...A willful action that risks the lives other people does not have a history of being a career ender. People make Chief with DUI's under their belt. A high number of the Chiefs I have known in my time have had DUI's under their belt. But PT...something that does not risk the lives of others, will end a career faster than any other willful and negligent behavior does.

No argument from me... PT is *A* standard, it shouldn't be THE standard.


not wanting to complain and against my better judgement I did, and failed.

THis is the one thing people need to stop doing... if you can't do it, don't suck it up and try, because if you fail, they're going to point you right back to the pre-test "are you good to go" sheet you sign. DOn't wait until your test is due to get medical issues addressed, because once you're backed up against your test date , you've got going over due to worry about too.

VFFTSGT
07-24-2013, 07:20 AM
THis is the one thing people need to stop doing... if you can't do it, don't suck it up and try, because if you fail, they're going to point you right back to the pre-test "are you good to go" sheet you sign. DOn't wait until your test is due to get medical issues addressed, because once you're backed up against your test date , you've got going over due to worry about too.

This!!!! You suck it up and fail, the AF is not going to look after you as Weapons unfortunately found out. When you separate or retire, all you have is your health and family (and whatever benefits you get to take with you). If damage yourself 'toughing it out,' your retirement is not going to be all that enjoying. The Air Force sure isn't going to do anything for you because you 'toughed it out.'


... thinking I had grounds to have the fail pulled by my CC, the shirt refused to take my case to the CC saying I should have never done the walk test if I knew I were that bad off. ...

I would have gone straight to the commander myself; utilized that 'open-door' policy that all commanders have. This is the commanders decision to make; not the first sergeants.

VCO
07-24-2013, 09:38 AM
How did they do this? The program I understand though still while not agreeing with it; the commander has the authority to simply look at you and say, "Go on the program I don't like the image you present." Fine, whatever. But if they pass the test, then they pass, right? Even with a 77, they pass; they have "Met" on that portion. And where does the commander get off on marking an EPR down? Was this a situation where he told people to do it and they simply said, "Yes sir, will do sir..."? Was he wet-ink changing the ratings himself or having his Chief push-back against raters?


Are you saying you are OK with shitbags in the Air Force, or am I missing something? I think some honesty injected into the entire branch would be refreshing, including EPRs, PT, and appearance. Folks on PT waivers should be discharged. Period. Folks with waivers to get out of doing something the majority is required to do need to go. The Air Force seems to be full of dead weight. At our manning level, we can't afford dead weight.

BOSS302
07-24-2013, 09:48 AM
Are you saying you are OK with shitbags in the Air Force, or am I missing something? I think some honesty injected into the entire branch would be refreshing, including EPRs, PT, and appearance. Folks on PT waivers should be discharged. Period. Folks with waivers to get out of doing something the majority is required to do need to go. The Air Force seems to be full of dead weight. At our manning level, we can't afford dead weight.

You are saying I am OK with "shitbags" in the Air Force. I never said such thing but you incorrectly inferred that I was implying it.

So yes, you are missing something. I hope you find it soon because perhaps you will add something of value to this discussion.

VCO
07-24-2013, 09:51 AM
I can't believe there are bafoons on here justifying that USAF PT is too much. USAF PT is a JOKE! If you can't do 43 situps, 34 pushups, run 1.5 miles in 13.14 or under, and keep your waist under 39" (which btw is FAT), then you shouldn't be in the Air Force! Seriously, those are some dismally low standards. a 39 inch waist is downright disgusting and looks gross. You all know at the time you enlist that you are required to adhere to physical fitness standards throughout your entire career, regardless of how hard they are for you. These people wanting out of PT or to lessen the standards even more than they already are, are the same worthless pieces of garbage that will make up any excuse to not have to put in any effort to working. Get your fat ass into a gym and stop making up excuses to be fit. We don't need you, we need people who are dedicated and are mentally strong enough to endure physical activity. For fuck's sake, I can't believe you tools are serious.

Also, to the people that think they're waists are too wide... no, try again. That's just another excuse for your own failure. If anything, having wide hips from the front would mean having a slimmer profile from the side. You're clearly forgetting the possibility of fat storage around your lower back. Instead of making piss-poor attempts at blaming your genetics, take some f'ing initiative and start working out. Wide hips or not, everyone is able to achieve a 33" waist, even 7 foot basketball players whose hips are wider than yours...

I agree with you. Long term PT profiles/component waivers need to automatically initiate a discharge process. It sucks that some people aren't cut out for military service, but the AF isn't a welfare system.

VCO
07-24-2013, 10:01 AM
You are saying I am OK with "shitbags" in the Air Force. I never said such thing but you incorrectly inferred that I was implying it.

So yes, you are missing something. I hope you find it soon because perhaps you will add something of value to this discussion.

Copy that. I thought you were arguing that somebody that looks like ass and barely squeaks by with a 77 PT score should not be marked down on his or her EPR. If that isn't the case, i misread your post.

BOSS302
07-24-2013, 10:08 AM
Copy that. I thought you were arguing that somebody that looks like ass and barely squeaks by with a 77 PT score should not be marked down on his or her EPR. If that isn't the case, i misread your post.

No, since I never said that "somebody that looks like ass and barely squeaks by with a 77 PT score should not be marked down". I said that commanders have the right to put people on a fitness program at their discretion. I also questioned the validity of both a markdown (though a "3" or "4" EPR is NOT a markdown) for meeting a standard and also the validity of a commander changing EPRs on his own or pressuring others to change EPR ratings based on his standards and not the standards of the front-line NCOs.

Hope that clears it up. :D

Juggs
07-24-2013, 11:26 AM
You didn't man up. You acted imprudently. You risked more serious injury, which could have jeopardized your ability to stay in the military as well your ability to do your job, all because you didn't want to look like a wimp. It's that attitude that we should rail against, because it's actually very selfish and leads others to disregard injury, not just discomfort.

If going on a waiver DNIF'd you, caused you to lose flight pay would you press on or go on a waiver? I think I know the answer.

Pullinteeth
07-24-2013, 12:35 PM
I agree with you. Long term PT profiles/component waivers need to automatically initiate a discharge process. It sucks that some people aren't cut out for military service, but the AF isn't a welfare system.

I wasn't aware you were a Doctor. You ARE of course aware that long term exemptions automatically initiate a MEB correct? Then a DOCTOR (or multiple medical professionals) make the evaluation for retention. Saying EVERYONE that is on a profile should be discharged is as stupid as saying everyone that gets a DUI should be kicked out or everyone that is convicted of sexual assault should be discharged.... Stupid and shortsighted.

Juggs
07-24-2013, 12:46 PM
I wasn't aware you were a Doctor. You ARE of course aware that long term exemptions automatically initiate a MEB correct? Then a DOCTOR (or multiple medical professionals) make the evaluation for retention. Saying EVERYONE that is on a profile should be discharged is as stupid as saying everyone that gets a DUI should be kicked out or everyone that is convicted of sexual assault should be discharged.... Stupid and shortsighted.

I think everybody convicted with a DUI and sexual assault should be kicked out. No benefits.

CrustySMSgt
07-24-2013, 12:48 PM
Folks on PT waivers should be discharged. Period. Folks with waivers to get out of doing something the majority is required to do need to go. The Air Force seems to be full of dead weight. At our manning level, we can't afford dead weight.

I agree with you. Long term PT profiles/component waivers need to automatically initiate a discharge process. It sucks that some people aren't cut out for military service, but the AF isn't a welfare system.

I think your opinion is at odds with 90% of the Air Force. Just so I'm clear on your position, being able to complete all portions of the PT exam is absolutely more importan than how well you do your job? So because I haven't been able to do pushups in a few years (but still score high 80s on the rest of the test) the right thing to do would be to go ahead and hit the button right now and get the hell out, taking my 28 years of experience with me... all because I can't do pushups?

Capt Alfredo
07-24-2013, 01:06 PM
If going on a waiver DNIF'd you, caused you to lose flight pay would you press on or go on a waiver? I think I know the answer.

I can't say because I don't work in a field where that would happen. Sounds like integrity would tell you to do the right thing, not the thing that benefitted your pocketbook. People like you push people to get broken instead of just injured, from the sound of it. Would you encourage your airmen to gut it out instead of seeing a doctor and getting on a waiver to heal? Sounds like you would.

Pullinteeth
07-24-2013, 01:24 PM
I think everybody convicted with a DUI and sexual assault should be kicked out. No benefits.

So...you think someone that falls asleep in the parking lot with their keys in the backseat should get the same punishment as someone that actually drives drunk? You think someone that gives a "good game" should get a harsher punishment than a TI that was having sex with trainees?

TWilliams
07-24-2013, 01:26 PM
THis is the one thing people need to stop doing... if you can't do it, don't suck it up and try, because if you fail, they're going to point you right back to the pre-test "are you good to go" sheet you sign. DOn't wait until your test is due to get medical issues addressed, because once you're backed up against your test date , you've got going over due to worry about too.

I might be wrong but to me it seemed like he was saying even with his medical problems he would have been able to pass if he had done the run but he went with the doc's medical opinion and was forced to do the walk test. At what point do you start to get in trouble for malingering or something else if you keep saying on the questionaire that you are not good to go? I would think after you see the doc and they make a determination on what type of profile restrictions to place you on that you either are forced to do the test or get in trouble for saying your are not fit enough to do it when the doctor says you are. I don't see many options for the member if they don't have the support of their commander.

CrustySMSgt
07-24-2013, 01:35 PM
I might be wrong but to me it seemed like he was saying even with his medical problems he would have been able to pass if he had done the run but he went with the doc's medical opinion and was forced to do the walk test. At what point do you start to get in trouble for malingering or something else if you keep saying on the questionaire that you are not good to go? I would think after you see the doc and they make a determination on what type of profile restrictions to place you on that you either are forced to do the test or get in trouble for saying your are not fit enough to do it when the doctor says you are. I don't see many options for the member if they don't have the support of their commander.

All very good questions, which can only be answered by your chain of command. Great reason to work it on the front end, so you can show you're being proactive... as well as being abel to cover your ass if they try and hose you. I'd think you'd have a good case when meeting the AFBCMR if you had documentation showing how you'd worked the issues with your PCM and doctor and they forced you to do something that resulted in your failures. SHouldn't come to that point if your working the issue... but we all know how unreasonable some CCs can be.

technomage1
07-24-2013, 03:04 PM
SHouldn't come to that point if your working the issue... but we all know how unreasonable some CCs can be.

Yep. I had one who, while I was on a no running profile from being injured (entirely preventable, no less, didn't want to do the activity for fear of being hurt & was forced to) at unit PT, claimed I "must not like to run" since I was on a profile and couldn't run at PT. This PO'd me so bad I brought in my running logbooks I'd kept for 5 years, along with my scrapbooks showing my races.

grimreaper
07-24-2013, 05:53 PM
if you were not fat, you would not have to worry about the taping any time. I keep my waist at 30 inches during my cut phase and up to 32 inches in my 10 months of hard core lifting and eating tons of HEALTHY calories. Do i ever worry about the tape..NO, cuase i aint fat, i aint even close to fat..so try that before you fatties complain..just keep that waist well below 35 and stop eating at popeyes for lunch ever day

Wasn't worried about taping at anytime and you're post completely misses the point. If you can be taped 3 days in a row and get a different result each time, it's not an accurate assessment of anything. Period.

Shaken1976
07-24-2013, 05:56 PM
Wasn't worried about taping at anytime and you're post completely misses the point. If you can be taped 3 days in a row and get a different result each time, it's not an accurate assessment of anything. Period.

Exactly... When you use humans to measure there is always room for error. Put everyone in a water displacement tank and lets go from there.

grimreaper
07-24-2013, 06:08 PM
I thought you were arguing that somebody that looks like ass and barely squeaks by with a 77 PT score should not be marked down on his or her EPR.

Why should they be marked down? What is the standard for PT? 75. What did this imaginary person get? 77. Sounds like they are exceeding the standard to me.

Sounds like your beef is with the scoring charts in AFI 36-2905. You want to mark someone down bases on personal appearance, not on what the what the AF currently says is the standard for fitness.

Pullinteeth
07-24-2013, 06:58 PM
I disagree, if you don't look professional in uniform, I don't care what your PT scores says. You need to present the right image of the USAF. The image of the USAF is not a tubby guy, its a thin fit man or woman. Perception is reality.

True but appearance isn't the same thing on the EPR as fitness. If you pass the fitness, your EPR should reflect that you passed-the friggin EPR says that block refers specifically to the AF Physical Fitness Standards). If you look like hot garbage, that should be reflected in another area....like oh say the section for Standards, Conduct, Character & military bearing.

VFFTSGT
07-24-2013, 07:01 PM
I disagree, if you don't look professional in uniform, I don't care what your PT scores says. You need to present the right image of the USAF. The image of the USAF is not a tubby guy, its a thin fit man or woman. Perception is reality.

I hate people who say this. Perception is not reality. Reality is reality. Perception is a person's uneducated, ill-informed, ill-concieved, etc. idea or opinion about something.

Zimmerman being guilty is a perception. A wrong one at that. And the race hustlers are causing turmoil across the country for personal gain.

People on profiles are nothing but malingers is a perception. People with this perception do not know what is medically wrong with anyone.

Someone runs a red light and you cuss them because your perception is they are selfish and don't care about anyone. In reality the driver's wife had a wreck caused by a drunk Airman (on his second DUI but passed his PT test) and will die when first responders move the car off her. He's on his way to say good-bye.

Perception is equivalent to a rumor.

BOSS302
07-24-2013, 07:11 PM
I disagree, if you don't look professional in uniform, I don't care what your PT scores says. You need to present the right image of the USAF. The image of the USAF is not a tubby guy, its a thin fit man or woman. Perception is reality.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MRNHRI_W14s/UVZBMuEWFPI/AAAAAAAAAc0/c0RyAJhGRBM/s1600/djs.jpg

BOSS302
07-24-2013, 07:13 PM
I hate people who say this. Perception is not reality. Reality is reality. Perception is a person's uneducated, ill-informed, ill-concieved, etc. idea or opinion about something.

Zimmerman being guilty is a perception. A wrong one at that. And the race hustlers are causing turmoil across the country for personal gain.

People on profiles are nothing but malingers is a perception. People with this perception do not know what is medically wrong with anyone.

Someone runs a red light and you cuss them because your perception is they are selfish and don't care about anyone. In reality the driver's wife had a wreck caused by a drunk Airman (on his second DUI but passed his PT test) and will die when first responders move the car off her. He's on his way to say good-bye.

Perception is equivalent to a rumor.

http://www.gulfbreezeguideservice.com/images%20for%20gulf%20breeze%20guide%20service/photos%20for%20gallery/Floris%20false%20albacore%20Sept%2028,%202008.jpg

garhkal
07-24-2013, 07:42 PM
What's wrong with the waist measurement? Fatties are walking around with 39" waists and they still get points on their test. Well, I guess you're right, 39" is way too generous. It should be 35" for the MAX. I dislike running as much as the next guy but hey, the Air Force has a Standard so I suck it up and EXCEED the standard. My reward, 2 days off and no testing for a year. Having my Wingman stick me in the gut with a shank doesn't sound very appealing.

During one of our admiral calls back in 06 (back in Guam), someone suggested 'staggering the bmi requirement'.
Someone only getting a Sat rating on the PRT itself, gets 21% men 27% women.
Someone getting a Good rating, gets +1% (men and women)
+2% for getting an excellent and +3% for someone getting an Outstanding.


Thanks to @Maxpower for posting what I was going to... there are fat bodies in every service... even the Marines (though much fewer than the rest).


And to me those in those pics max posted, should not be in the mil.


DUI's don't even end a career like PT does. Think about it...A willful action that risks the lives other people does not have a history of being a career ender. People make Chief with DUI's under their belt. A high number of the Chiefs I have known in my time have had DUI's under their belt. But PT...something that does not risk the lives of others, will end a career faster than any other willful and negligent behavior does.

Which to me is ass backwards.


I agree with you. Long term PT profiles/component waivers need to automatically initiate a discharge process. It sucks that some people aren't cut out for military service, but the AF isn't a welfare system.

In another thread, someone mentioned a suggestion offered up that 3 or more consecutive pt waivers, and you start getting med boarded.

VFFTSGT
07-24-2013, 07:46 PM
http://www.gulfbreezeguideservice.com/images%20for%20gulf%20breeze%20guide%20service/photos%20for%20gallery/Floris%20false%20albacore%20Sept%2028,%202008.jpg

People actually believe what you said though and that is who my response is for.

CrustySMSgt
07-25-2013, 04:19 AM
Exactly... When you use humans to measure there is always room for error. Put everyone in a water displacement tank and lets go from there.

WHile I have seen very few people who have a 40" waist and look proffesional in uniform, THIS is the reason the A/C should be thrown out. When you have 3 people measure you and all 3 come up with varying measurements differing by inches, it's pretty obvious it isn't a valid assessment.


Reality is reality.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002260503/1620742673_532dd66d_mind_blown_xlarge.jpeg

BRUWIN
07-25-2013, 05:20 AM
Put everyone in a water displacement tank and lets go from there.

Yeah right...I don't want to be in the FAC when the maintenance squadrons arrive for their "water displacement" checks. I can just picture the first maintainer in the tank and the resulting rushing waterfall out the FAC entrance steps as we speak

garhkal
07-25-2013, 05:32 AM
WHile I have seen very few people who have a 40" waist and look proffesional in uniform, THIS is the reason the A/C should be thrown out. When you have 3 people measure you and all 3 come up with varying measurements differing by inches, it's pretty obvious it isn't a valid assessment.

What's worse is when 2 get the same reading, but the other gets a different one and they decide to use HIS reading.

VCO
07-25-2013, 11:32 AM
I wasn't aware you were a Doctor. You ARE of course aware that long term exemptions automatically initiate a MEB correct? Then a DOCTOR (or multiple medical professionals) make the evaluation for retention. Saying EVERYONE that is on a profile should be discharged is as stupid as saying everyone that gets a DUI should be kicked out or everyone that is convicted of sexual assault should be discharged.... Stupid and shortsighted.

I'm not a doctor. I never claimed to be a doctor. However, I do agree with you that drunk drivers, rapists, and other people that can't meet the physical standards should be discharged.

VCO
07-25-2013, 11:35 AM
I think your opinion is at odds with 90% of the Air Force. Just so I'm clear on your position, being able to complete all portions of the PT exam is absolutely more importan than how well you do your job? So because I haven't been able to do pushups in a few years (but still score high 80s on the rest of the test) the right thing to do would be to go ahead and hit the button right now and get the hell out, taking my 28 years of experience with me... all because I can't do pushups?

Chief,

I know for a fact my opinion is at odds with 90% of the AF. That alone tells you that we have a problem. And to answer your question, yes.

VCO
07-25-2013, 11:37 AM
Why should they be marked down? What is the standard for PT? 75. What did this imaginary person get? 77. Sounds like they are exceeding the standard to me.

Sounds like your beef is with the scoring charts in AFI 36-2905. You want to mark someone down bases on personal appearance, not on what the what the AF currently says is the standard for fitness.

So? If somebody barely meets the standard and looks like ass, should they be a firewall five?

VCO
07-25-2013, 11:41 AM
No, since I never said that "somebody that looks like ass and barely squeaks by with a 77 PT score should not be marked down". I said that commanders have the right to put people on a fitness program at their discretion. I also questioned the validity of both a markdown (though a "3" or "4" EPR is NOT a markdown) for meeting a standard and also the validity of a commander changing EPRs on his own or pressuring others to change EPR ratings based on his standards and not the standards of the front-line NCOs.

Hope that clears it up. :D
It does. I agree that a 3 or 4 EPR is not a markdown. And I'm actually kinda shocked you put that out there. As far as the commander and his standards, the NCOs should be upholding his standard. That is why we have NCOs. If that can't do that, they are basically rogue douche canoes that can't earn their keep.

Pullinteeth
07-25-2013, 12:35 PM
During one of our admiral calls back in 06 (back in Guam), someone suggested 'staggering the bmi requirement'.
Someone only getting a Sat rating on the PRT itself, gets 21% men 27% women.
Someone getting a Good rating, gets +1% (men and women)
+2% for getting an excellent and +3% for someone getting an Outstanding.

You of course know that the BMI is a DoD policy correct? To veer away from it, the Navy would have to get an exception to policy (like the AF has).


I'm not a doctor. I never claimed to be a doctor. However, I do agree with you that drunk drivers, rapists, and other people that can't meet the physical standards should be discharged.

Ah...but you didn't say that. You said anyone with a DUI and anyone that committed sexual assault NOT drunk drivers and rapists. Since you don't know what you are talking about, I guess we can lump your statements about physical standards with the rest of the statements you have now recanted....

CrustySMSgt
07-25-2013, 12:47 PM
Chief,

I know for a fact my opinion is at odds with 90% of the AF. That alone tells you that we have a problem. And to answer your question, yes.

We have a problem because 90% of the people have common sense? Good luck with your AF full of PT Gods!

PT is *A* standard and should not be the sole measure of an individuals ability to serve. This isn't an Olympic team. The assessment equation allows for exemptions... if you're meeting the standard, exactly what's the problem?

20+Years
07-25-2013, 01:07 PM
Look folks... you were a geek in highschool, thats why you scored so well on your ASVAB and got in the AF. Getting through basic training did not turn you into a Greek God of PT. Sorry, you still aren't the cool kid, and still won't win a popularity contest. Go back to work and do your job the AF actually pays you for.

PT GOD - go Blue to Green. Thanx.

Mr. Happy
07-25-2013, 01:27 PM
Look folks... you were a geek in highschool, thats why you scored so well on your ASVAB and got in the AF. Getting through basic training did not turn you into a Greek God of PT. Sorry, you still aren't the cool kid, and still won't win a popularity contest. Go back to work and do your job the AF actually pays you for.

PT GOD - go Blue to Green. Thanx.

The quality of ASVAB scores are generally true for AF enlistees, but man, I've met a fair share of complete morons and weirdoes too over 23 years in the AF. Maybe they lucked out and guessed the answers right? Score sheet got mixed up? I don't know.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 03:09 PM
The important point to remember is that the PT program exists because the AF cares about you and can't afford to lose you.

To prove how important you are to the mission, they will kick you out for repeatedly failing...

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 03:53 PM
My research of cmsaf McKinley shows three things.
Pt is to help save healthcare costs, increase duty hours
And deinflate the epr system. These are all quotes
Straight from him. The only conspiracy I can't prove
Yet is pt discharges were intended to offset lost
Dadt discharges when dadt ended. There are few
Other discharge programs and the new pt discharge
Program started when dadt ended. Lastly think about
This, need help stop smoking or drinking, med
Group program there to help you. Need help
With pt, commander program there to boot you.

Seriously, I believe all the "reasons" leadership ever gave for the PT program were just trying to make is sound better, because the real reason doesn't sound that good.

The PT program is about image. Leadership just gets a bad taste in their mouth when they see fat people in uniform. They could really care less how healthy you are if you're skinny.

As far as all the conspiracies about this being a force reduction program, discharges etc...again, I don't buy it...there are plenty of ways to get rid of people, they didn't really need another one...and you are giving them too much credit for being clever.

VFFTSGT
07-25-2013, 03:59 PM
My research of cmsaf McKinley shows three things.
Pt is to help save healthcare costs, increase duty hours
And deinflate the epr system. These are all quotes
Straight from him. The only conspiracy I can't prove
Yet is pt discharges were intended to offset lost
Dadt discharges when dadt ended. There are few
Other discharge programs and the new pt discharge
Program started when dadt ended. Lastly think about
This, need help stop smoking or drinking, med
Group program there to help you. Need help
With pt, commander program there to boot you.

The supposed point was to save long term healthcare cost. I would say we increased short-term cost with all the physical injuries (and PT related deaths). And long term cost are increased because if you do live longer because you are healthier you will be a burden on the system longer. Like MM said, these reasons where all talking points/rhetoric not based in any sound reason.

MACHINE666
07-25-2013, 04:50 PM
She shoulda hired George Zimmerman to shoot her in the stomach, so that way she could scream "racism" and still get away with it!

:D :D :D :D :D

Pullinteeth
07-25-2013, 04:55 PM
As far as all the conspiracies about this being a force reduction program, discharges etc...again, I don't buy it...there are plenty of ways to get rid of people, they didn't really need another one...and you are giving them too much credit for being clever.

Really? They seem to come up with a new one every year because they can't get enough people to leave. DOS rollback? Invol discharge for 2x passovers? CJR restriction? There have been literally THOUSANDS forced out involuntarily through Force Shaping over the last decade. If they had enough methods of getting rid of people, they wouldn't be offering a 15 year retirement now would they?

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 05:42 PM
Really? They seem to come up with a new one every year because they can't get enough people to leave. DOS rollback? Invol discharge for 2x passovers? CJR restriction? There have been literally THOUSANDS forced out involuntarily through Force Shaping over the last decade. If they had enough methods of getting rid of people, they wouldn't be offering a 15 year retirement now would they?

Yes, really. All those programs you mentioned ARE the plenty of other ways to get rid of people.

I don't have any quotes or specifics...I can just say I recall sitting in several meetings at the wing and HQ level, and reviewed minutes from Corona...and it seemed like every time an influential 4-star visited a base and made mention that there were still a lot of fat people, that the some teeth was added to the program. I seem to remember a specific time a 4-star visited Lakenheath and inquired about the PT-status of several specific individuals he noticed during his walk-around. When he found out they were simply marked as "pass", is when a lot of the teeth was added to the program and was the instigator for the civilian testers. Basically, he came across some guy with a 43-inch belly that was marked at 38" only recently.

I'm obvioulsy not a big fan of the PT program, I just don't think it was EVER thought of as a way to get rid of people (by the people making the PT rules, I mean)

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 06:33 PM
Hard to ignore facts.

"Air Force spokeswoman Lt. Col. Adriane Craig acknowledged the proposal and said that Schwartz is evaluating many aspects of the test and the scoring system.

The last time that the Air Force retooled its physical fitness exam was five years ago. The aim then, as it is now, is to trim down the force by toughening the test."

LOL...nice out-of-context quote. Almost had me for a minute.


"The last time that the Air Force retooled its physical fitness exam was five years ago. The aim then, as it is now, is to trim down the force by toughening the test. Today, more than 50 percent of airmen are overweight, but nearly all pass the test, according to Air Force statistics."


Trim them in terms of circumference, not numbers.

20+Years
07-25-2013, 06:47 PM
The real "trim" is going to come when all the HYT changes get the boot.

Pullinteeth
07-25-2013, 07:00 PM
Yes, really. All those programs you mentioned ARE the plenty of other ways to get rid of people.

I think you missed my point... If they had plenty of ways to get rid of people, they wouldn't have to keep coming up with more.

garhkal
07-25-2013, 07:09 PM
So? If somebody barely meets the standard and looks like ass, should they be a firewall five?

Nope. IMO only those who routinely get excellent or outstanding on their PRT should get 5s.. if they are barely meeting it the MOST they should get is a 3.


You of course know that the BMI is a DoD policy correct? To veer away from it, the Navy would have to get an exception to policy (like the AF has).

Yes i do, hence why i said it was made as a suggestion at an admiral's call.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 07:44 PM
You had me for a minute as well, but an increase in pt discharges
from 156 in 2007 to 1,319 in 2012 is not accidental or unintentional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC2tlNmz4ao&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Naturally, since discharge is part of the consequences, that there will be more discharges as the program grows teeth.

That doesn't mean it was the purpose of the program to begin with.


Also, why is everything so hush hush...
"In creating a more fitness-conscious culture, Air Force leaders have generally become more tolerant of separating airmen who do not meet fitness standards," said John Park, deputy director of force management policy for the Air Force, in a statement provided by spokesman Maj. Joel Harper. Park declined to be interviewed for this article.

Not sure what this means other than...it used to be a harder decision for commanders to discharge someone for fitness, but that decision has become easier to make.

Still not buying that this was ever intentionally thought of as a way to discharge more Airmen...even if leaders knew that discharges would happen, it's not why they came up with the program.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 07:45 PM
I think you missed my point... If they had plenty of ways to get rid of people, they wouldn't have to keep coming up with more.

LOL...I just don't think PT is one of them...not by design, I mean.

20+Years
07-25-2013, 07:58 PM
Nope. IMO only those who routinely get excellent or outstanding on their PRT should get 5s.. if they are barely meeting it the MOST they should get is a 3.

Man, on the AF side I would debate this all day long. For me, a PT score IS NOT going twoards a rating unless its below 75. 75.1 or above, same rating. Now fitness on the other hand, dedication to it or the amount of effort put in can help someone be a 5 all day long in my book. But not the assesment score. Sorry, but I see it like this.

For some unknown, undiagnosed medical reason, my ankles, feet, and sometimes knees hurt every day. I wake up, they hurt. I go to bed, they hurt. Maybe its because I'm 41 and have been abusing my body for that many years. So... if my buddy is a marathon runner, has no medical issues, should he really get a higher EPR score than me? For all anyone knows, I may work circles around the clown.

I go to PT, and workout to my limitations. Once or twice a year (and several practices sessions before), I grin and bear it, ice down after the run and usually limp for a few days. Should I be rated lower than Mr. Marathon? Not in my world. That may get him some extra credit in Standards and a Meets in fitness, but guess what? Someone barely meeting can score just as high with me by being good in other areas too.

20+Years
07-25-2013, 08:07 PM
Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Going from 156 to 1319 discharges was unintended,
More natural actually and it affecting mostly enlisted was also unintended.

So what was intent of program and program changes?

The intent of the program, I am 100% certain, was to change the "shape" of the AF. One person with too many stars was fit and decided everyone else should be too. His fellow star wearing buddies were two big of wusses to stand up to him so here we are. A program designed by yet another "fit" guy. Hence discharges. If we would have had an average in shape person develop our test, we would be in a much different place.

All this is very similar to a political party shoving thier policies down another parties throat. Except it was the skinnies vs. fatties in this scenario. Fatties lost.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 08:08 PM
Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Going from 156 to 1319 discharges was unintended,
More natural actually and it affecting mostly enlisted was also unintended.

So what was intent of program and program changes?

To eliminate or greatly reduce the eye-sore of fat Airmen.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 08:16 PM
Of course, you have no proof of that right?

Of course not. As I said from the beginning...the talking points are all about healthcare costs, or deployment readiness, etc.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 08:20 PM
So either way they are lying.

Some might call it "spinning"

20+Years
07-25-2013, 08:24 PM
I've read the history and was a part of how it got started before Gen Jumper started it off,
his intent could not be any further away from what we have today. I am giving thought to
what Measure Man is saying, assuming he is not baiting me. Basically, officially the AF is
not saying that they wanted the increased discharges, but they just in fact did tenfold on enlisted.

I completely agree with you. They didn't plan this. They weren't that smart.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 08:50 PM
Sadly, overall, they took WarFit and totally screwed intent


Basically, pretty much everything about the program now sucks.

Yeah, the original idea wasn't that bad.

Measure Man
07-25-2013, 09:17 PM
In all seriousness, I think around 2005 it was almost perfect.
70 was passing.
Pt wasn't on epr.
Our whole sq worked out mon-wed-fri and everyone on
Base knew shops would open at 830/900 those days.
No auto fail minimums.
I no shit felt the goal of fitness culture was achievable,
Then it all went haywire.

Yes, I agree...it was a nice little program back then

technomage1
07-25-2013, 09:17 PM
In all seriousness, I think around 2005 it was almost perfect.
70 was passing.
Pt wasn't on epr.
Our whole sq worked out mon-wed-fri and everyone on
Base knew shops would open at 830/900 those days.
No auto fail minimums.
I no shit felt the goal of fitness culture was achievable,
Then it all went haywire with 10,865 changes.

I completely agree. That was the balance point we need to return to.

Silverback
07-25-2013, 09:23 PM
In all seriousness, I think around 2005 it was almost perfect.
70 was passing.
Pt wasn't on epr.
Our whole sq worked out mon-wed-fri and everyone on
Base knew shops would open at 830/900 those days.
No auto fail minimums.
I no shit felt the goal of fitness culture was achievable,
Then it all went haywire with 10,865 changes.


I never stressed about the test in 2005. Ever since 2010, I always stress about the PT test. I don’t stress because it is hard or I have not worked out, but because there is so much pressure behind this test. GodFather, you are correct, I feel that the test was at its best in 2005.

CrustySMSgt
07-26-2013, 06:13 AM
You of course know that the BMI is a DoD policy correct? To veer away from it, the Navy would have to get an exception to policy (like the AF has).


You heard it here first... I heard those 3 letters mentioned this morning.


They could really care less how healthy you are if you're skinny.

As far as all the conspiracies about this being a force reduction program, discharges etc...again, I don't buy it...there are plenty of ways to get rid of people, they didn't really need another one...and you are giving them too much credit for being clever.

Can't argue with that logic!

And I concur... never bought in to the conspiracy theories about fitness being a force shaping tool. It's the military; there is an expectation of a reasonable level of fitness. The AF's required level of fitness is on the LOW end of reasonable.


The intent of the program, I am 100% certain, was to change the "shape" of the AF. One person with too many stars was fit and decided everyone else should be too. His fellow star wearing buddies were two big of wusses to stand up to him so here we are. A program designed by yet another "fit" guy. Hence discharges. If we would have had an average in shape person develop our test, we would be in a much different place.

All this is very similar to a political party shoving thier policies down another parties throat. Except it was the skinnies vs. fatties in this scenario. Fatties lost.

If it was designed by a "fit" guy, the test would be hard. 95% (yes, my non-fact based, opinion only, random, made up statistic) of people who put a reasonable amount of effort in to the program will pass.

VCO
07-26-2013, 09:14 AM
We have a problem because 90% of the people have common sense? Good luck with your AF full of PT Gods!

PT is *A* standard and should not be the sole measure of an individuals ability to serve. This isn't an Olympic team. The assessment equation allows for exemptions... if you're meeting the standard, exactly what's the problem?

If meeting/exceeding the PT standard isn't really necessary, why do we have a PT program? I know those aren't your exact words, but if folks can simply pick and choose which components to complete, is it even needed?

VCO
07-26-2013, 09:20 AM
Ah...but you didn't say that. You said anyone with a DUI and anyone that committed sexual assault NOT drunk drivers and rapists. Since you don't know what you are talking about, I guess we can lump your statements about physical standards with the rest of the statements you have now recanted....

Can you refresh my memory? What did i recant?!?

CrustySMSgt
07-26-2013, 09:20 AM
If meeting/exceeding the PT standard isn't really necessary, why do we have a PT program? I know those aren't your exact words, but if folks can simply pick and choose which components to complete, is it even needed?

I meet (exceed) PT standards per the AFI. Pick & choose? I didn't choose to get arthritis and bone spurs in my shoulders. Sure I could suck it up and keep doing pushups and push throught he pain... and suffer pain for the rest of my life, just to not "choose" to complete this component of the eval (but still score in the high 80s/low 90s)... but how exactly does not doing push-ups affect my ability to be a Chief or do my job?

Agree if your profile prevents you from passing the eval, doing your job, or deploying, you need to go! But to say that the Air Force should throw away a 28 year investment because I can't do pushups is laughable.

VCO
07-26-2013, 09:34 AM
I meet (exceed) PT standards per the AFI. Pick & choose? I didn't choose to get arthritis and bone spurs in my shoulders. Sure I could suck it up and keep doing pushups and push throught he pain... and suffer pain for the rest of my life, just to not "choose" to complete this component of the eval (but still score in the high 80s/low 90s)... but how exactly does not doing push-ups affect my ability to be a Chief or do my job?

Agree if your profile prevents you from passing the eval, doing your job, or deploying, you need to go! But to say that the Air Force should throw away a 28 year investment because I can't do pushups is laughable.

I firmly believe that all Airmen should be held to the same standard. If PT is important enough to warrant regular testing and harsh repercussions for failure, there should be no exceptions. If the program is pointless, it should go away.

BOSS302
07-26-2013, 09:36 AM
If meeting/exceeding the PT standard isn't really necessary, why do we have a PT program? I know those aren't your exact words, but if folks can simply pick and choose which components to complete, is it even needed?

I do not believe one of the best TSgts I ever worked with decided to blow-out his knee. Air Force doctors and managers at the HAWC - far more qualified than yourself - decided what he would and would not do when it came to the PT test.

You act as though the PT program is an "a la carte" menu where someone can walk-in and say, "I'll have that but not that, thanks."

Your argument has been rendered illogical by several people. This is the part where you gracefully tap-out and take an "L".

VCO
07-26-2013, 09:40 AM
I do not believe one of the best TSgts I ever worked with decided to blow-out his knee. Air Force doctors and managers at the HAWC - far more qualified than yourself - decided what he would and would not do when it came to the PT test.

You act as though the PT program is an "a la carte" menu where someone can walk-in and say, "I'll have that but not that, thanks."

Your argument has been rendered illogical by several people. This is the part where you gracefully tap-out and take an "L".

I think you might have missed my point. As to your best-ever TSgt, everyone can and will be replaced.

BOSS302
07-26-2013, 09:51 AM
I think you might have missed my point. As to your best-ever TSgt, everyone can and will be replaced.

Well that's a given, unless the Air Force has begun to field a squadron of Airman Immortals.

The point you fail to understand is that not everyone should be replaced before their Air Force expiration date. In the case of Crusty, he has push-up issues. So what? He can surely conduct his AFSC duties with the breadth of 28 years of experience while also providing the proper SNCO leadership needed today.

Again, people more qualified than yourself have made the determination that he is fit for duty and he and others (to include the TSgt I mentioned) continue to provide the Air Force with expertise and service.

You have your views on the Air Force; whether they are troll-ish or not, they are the views of how you think the Air Force should be. You represent the very reason why there is a system of rigorous checks & balances both through the chain of command and independent of the chain of command to ensure the rights of airmen and ensure the Air Force is keeping the best people when those best people are threatened with illogical separation.

Luckily, it is not your Air Force and when you are replaced or you pass your "Use By" date, your views on the Air Force will follow you out the door.

imported_AFKILO7
07-26-2013, 01:16 PM
I just had knee surgery to repair the meniscus in my knee. I'm at about 14.5 years TIS. My greatest fear is that I will fail the pt test in the future due to complications revolving around my knee. If I fail I will surely be screwed in multiple ways because of the silly ass emphasis on PT. There is the remote possibility that I may have to have an additional surgery if the repair doesn't take.

My current skill set requires strong healthy knees, so even if I were eventually discharged because I was unable to pass the pt test I couldn't get a job doing what I have the skill and knowledge to do on the outside. The "system" has flaws. Huge gaping flaws. I have a family, I've never gotten into trouble during my career, I work my ass off, I'm loyal and I'm good at my job.

I feel for the people with legitimate physical issues and their fight with the PT test. I'm going to push myself to the limits to succeed, I just hope that I don't find myself in a bad situation.

Measure Man
07-26-2013, 01:51 PM
I meet (exceed) PT standards per the AFI. Pick & choose? I didn't choose to get arthritis and bone spurs in my shoulders. Sure I could suck it up and keep doing pushups and push throught he pain... and suffer pain for the rest of my life, just to not "choose" to complete this component of the eval (but still score in the high 80s/low 90s)... but how exactly does not doing push-ups affect my ability to be a Chief or do my job?

Agree if your profile prevents you from passing the eval, doing your job, or deploying, you need to go! But to say that the Air Force should throw away a 28 year investment because I can't do pushups is laughable.

Is your profile permanent...or do you have a "get-well" date within a year?

CrustySMSgt
07-26-2013, 02:49 PM
Is your profile permanent...or do you have a "get-well" date within a year?

Not permanent. I WAS good to go before I deployed, but with the Jan 2013 change to 36-2905 my case will have to be sent to the DAWG when I return.

Pullinteeth
07-26-2013, 03:15 PM
I firmly believe that all Airmen should be held to the same standard. If PT is important enough to warrant regular testing and harsh repercussions for failure, there should be no exceptions. If the program is pointless, it should go away.

That is an extremely myopic POV. Being on a profile does not mean you didn't meet the standard. If you FAIL while on a profile, THAT means you didn't meet the standard.

garhkal
07-26-2013, 06:07 PM
Man, on the AF side I would debate this all day long. For me, a PT score IS NOT going twoards a rating unless its below 75. 75.1 or above, same rating. Now fitness on the other hand, dedication to it or the amount of effort put in can help someone be a 5 all day long in my book. But not the assesment score. Sorry, but I see it like this.

For some unknown, undiagnosed medical reason, my ankles, feet, and sometimes knees hurt every day. I wake up, they hurt. I go to bed, they hurt. Maybe its because I'm 41 and have been abusing my body for that many years. So... if my buddy is a marathon runner, has no medical issues, should he really get a higher EPR score than me? For all anyone knows, I may work circles around the clown.

I go to PT, and workout to my limitations. Once or twice a year (and several practices sessions before), I grin and bear it, ice down after the run and usually limp for a few days. Should I be rated lower than Mr. Marathon? Not in my world. That may get him some extra credit in Standards and a Meets in fitness, but guess what? Someone barely meeting can score just as high with me by being good in other areas too.


If you are better than him in work, that should rank you higher on the evals, in the professional knowledge block and quality of work block. But if his pt scores are higher than you, he should be ranked higher than you in the military bearing/character block. Admittedly this is based on the navy enlisted eval form i am looking at.. Not sure what the AF one looks like.

Shaken1976
07-26-2013, 06:18 PM
If you are better than him in work, that should rank you higher on the evals, in the professional knowledge block and quality of work block. But if his pt scores are higher than you, he should be ranked higher than you in the military bearing/character block. Admittedly this is based on the navy enlisted eval form i am looking at.. Not sure what the AF one looks like.

In the Air Force our EPR has it's own block for fitness. It is either meets or does not meet.

However, most supervisors like to mark you down in other areas as well.

20+Years
07-26-2013, 07:07 PM
If you are better than him in work, that should rank you higher on the evals, in the professional knowledge block and quality of work block. But if his pt scores are higher than you, he should be ranked higher than you in the military bearing/character block. Admittedly this is based on the navy enlisted eval form i am looking at.. Not sure what the AF one looks like.

And that is one more reason the inflated AF system has kept me rated highly. I know nothing about the Navy, but I think it would suck to be rated lower than other folks because you are limited by physical traits/illnesses. Some people have arthritis, some don't. The ones who don't get higher ratings (in the military bearing/character block)...ick.

garhkal
07-26-2013, 07:26 PM
In the Air Force our EPR has it's own block for fitness. It is either meets or does not meet.

However, most supervisors like to mark you down in other areas as well.

THen that is an issue with them, not the EPR system.


And that is one more reason the inflated AF system has kept me rated highly. I know nothing about the Navy, but I think it would suck to be rated lower than other folks because you are limited by physical traits/illnesses. Some people have arthritis, some don't. The ones who don't get higher ratings (in the military bearing/character block)...ick.

Well its kind of linked to other areas.. Such as the community/command involvement. Why should say someone who is a single parent (there spends most of their off duty time at home with the kid) get marked down less than someone who is just single and can spend all the time they want doing those community/command events?

VCO
08-03-2013, 01:26 PM
Well that's a given, unless the Air Force has begun to field a squadron of Airman Immortals.

The point you fail to understand is that not everyone should be replaced before their Air Force expiration date. In the case of Crusty, he has push-up issues. So what? He can surely conduct his AFSC duties with the breadth of 28 years of experience while also providing the proper SNCO leadership needed today.
.

So do we follow military logic, or is everything subjective? Your best bud is the ONLY person capable of filling a military billet. BS. If you can't meet the standards then you should go.

Mcjohn1118
08-03-2013, 01:42 PM
In the Air Force our EPR has it's own block for fitness. It is either meets or does not meet.

However, most supervisors like to mark you down in other areas as well.

Shaken, I'm in this kind of unit now but there is more to this here. For example, our former CC had a policy that after two PT failures in the 24-month period, a UIF was established (No joke; he was quite the boss). So, let's break down some arbitrary dates of EPR close-out and PT failures. SSgt X had last years EPR close-out 28 Jul 12 (PT good, EPR firewall 5). His PT test was in Nov 12 and he failed. He then failed his re-test Feb 13. Here comes the UIF. Goes to Dr. because his knees are jacked and gets a limited profile for running. Re-tests May 13...passes. However, UIF is still active (six months time frame, will not end until August) and here comes his EPR. This SSgt is a Five, meets the PT standard yet he can't be a firewall (truly among the best) because other SSgts don't have a UIF. Therefore it is a five with markdown in standards. It won't affect WAPS points but may affect any decoration he may warrant. This depends on the new Group CC we have. But now we have a new CC and he is doing away with UIFs after two PT failures within 24-months. Oh and on a side note, the new GM for the fitness AFI is dated 2 Aug 2013 and it is good for one year or when the AFI is updated, whichever is earlier.