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BOSS302
07-21-2013, 03:46 PM
The Man, the Myth, the Legend.

Did you have any experiences with him personally? Were you affected by his "Combat" programs?

Even after retirement, "Doc" ruffled feathers:

"But, in fairness, Foglesong was probably a poor choice for the MSU post, and we wonder if his nomination would have survived a public confirmation process. While no one has ever doubted Foglesong’s honesty or integrity, he had a reputation in the Air Force for being difficult and arrogant (not exactly rare qualities among fighter pilots).

One retired senior non-commissioned officer, who served under the general, described him as “jerk.” Another former Air Force member, posting on the MSU student paper's website, claimed that Foglesong's "extreme micro-managing, petty reprisals and 'dodgy' use of military funds were legendary." - In From the Cold: "Doc" Steps Down, 2008

CJSmith
07-21-2013, 04:36 PM
Damn, a whole thread just for the "man who will not be named." This should be up there with Blutarski. Could you imagine a command with these two DB's?

Airborne
07-21-2013, 05:50 PM
Was in the UK at the time, under a different command. Not directly affected but cringed everytime I was at the gym and any given AFN commercial block would feature him every single time. Im sure I was affected but I cant place anything at the moment. I do remember combat ________.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-21-2013, 07:34 PM
As the 12 AF/CC he would go on runs around the DM flightline, completely ignoring the red lines. When challenged by the SF who didn't recognize him he put the SF dude and his LT at attention until the WG/CC showed up. When not fucking with the SFS who were trying to do their jobs he would call the WG/CC anytime he noticed the AGE not perfectly lined up on flightline.

DOC was truly a Class A D-bag!

Capt Alfredo
07-21-2013, 07:59 PM
As the 12 AF/CC he would go on runs around the DM flightline, completely ignoring the red lines. When challenged by the SF who didn't recognize him he put the SF dude and his LT at attention until the WG/CC showed up. When not fucking with the SFS who were trying to do their jobs he would call the WG/CC anytime he noticed the AGE not perfectly lined up on flightline.

DOC was truly a Class A D-bag!

Thankfully I haven't heard similar stories about his son, who is a full bird intel guy. I guess that could be a new topic: children of high-profile officers who are currently serving.

technomage1
07-21-2013, 08:09 PM
Complete and utter waste of space. Runner up for the worst AF officer ever. Civilians cheered when he was fired from his cushy retirement job.

imported_AFKILO7
07-21-2013, 09:04 PM
Doc, wherever he is, should wash his mouth out with a shotgun.

Drackore
07-21-2013, 09:22 PM
Got an LOR from him once over a AFCM for a SrA. Framed in my home. Guy is/was/always will be a piece of shit. I would punch him square in the face if I ever had the displeasure of crossing paths with him again.

TWilliams
07-21-2013, 09:46 PM
Got an LOR from him once over a AFCM for a SrA. Framed in my home. Guy is/was/always will be a piece of shit. I would punch him square in the face if I ever had the displeasure of crossing paths with him again.

If you don't mind, what is the story behind this?

BOSS302
07-21-2013, 10:01 PM
Got an LOR from him once over a AFCM for a SrA. Framed in my home. Guy is/was/always will be a piece of shit. I would punch him square in the face if I ever had the displeasure of crossing paths with him again.

What the hell for?

Mr. Happy
07-21-2013, 10:19 PM
Sweet Mary mother of Jesus, a thread devoted to Doc. Where does one even begin?

The poster under "Tracy" in the following forum captures the true essence of Doc - http://archive.is/6AEIi It's a little dated, but worth the read...couldn't have said it any better.

For starters, look at his ribbon rack in his bio - http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5435 He has all those Banana Republic decorations, but not ONE combat or contingency decoration for a flying career spanning 34 years.

I had the misfortune of being assigned to Osan while he was a full bird wing commander there. One Saturday morning I had to come in and inspect a site, and had inadvertently left a small light on outside our building. While I was out in the areas, I get a call from my controller on the radio that I needed to turn the light off. I was puzzled how he even knew that since the controller was in a different building clear across the base. Turns out Doc was out jogging and had seen it, and started calling all the way down the chain until it reached yours truly. Another time at Osan, I spent an entire hot summer afternoon painting bollards at one of our facilities at the direction of some asshole NCOIC I worked for. He told me to paint them bright yellow so they were visible. No sooner I got to about the last one (about 12 total), Doc apparently drove by and had a shit fit. Suddenly the shop bread van pulls up, and about 5 co-workers bail out to help me paint them back to brown. Guess he raised hell about that.

Once he made 4 star and was assigned as a USAFE/CC, his craziness reached epic proportions. As stated in the other thread about misuse of Airmen, Doc's Combat Proud programs wasted a lot of man-hours and money on unnecessary focus items. Sure, keep the installations in the command looking good, but in USAFE under his command, it was obsessive! Plus, this was at the height of GWOT operations, so you could imagine Ramstein's ops tempo would be focused on that, and not trash details and firing good commanders over piddly crap around the base. They wasted tons of money building walls to hide EVERYTHING. Tons of money on flowers all over the base. Plus, the roving patrols constantly harped on units about grass being watered. I know it was Germany, but that particular summer was hotter and drier than normal, so everywhere you went on base, the water was running...and water there was not cheap. After getting tired of patrols hounding us about the grass, I finally said F it, and told my guys to leave the sprinklers running 24/7.

Then he received the Order of the Sword of all honors; even though he was despised by all...yeah.

How in the hell did this guy rise to the top???

technomage1
07-22-2013, 01:00 AM
What the hell for?

I was wondering too?

technomage1
07-22-2013, 01:03 AM
Then he received the Order of the Sword of all honors; even though he was despised by all...yeah.

How in the hell did this guy rise to the top???

Darned if I know. We'd have run him through with a sword rather than award it if it was up to us.

Chief_KO
07-22-2013, 01:27 AM
1. Enforced Osan's curfew with a zeal not seen since Attila. Closed the main gate post office annex and had it converted to town patrol hq/holding cells. If you were not past the ID checker building and both feet on Osan AB proper you were apprehended for curfew violation. If you were in line...apprehended.
2. SFS were instructed to read a statement "Under the orders of _____" 30 minutes prior to curfew. After this was read you were to depart establishment and head back to base.
3. Put O6s and E9s on Town Patrol.
4. Expanded town patrol's patrol jurisdiction (and doubled or quadrupled the number of and size of town patrol squads).
5. Bar owners in Songtan closed up for 6 weeks or so in protest, burning him in effigy at main gate.
6. Directed SNCOs to live at AF village (off base apartments), and directed JR NCOs back on base (cutting the number of US personnel at facility in half). Sounds all and well, but members forced to move at own expense (could not even use GOV) and had to move even if DEROS was next month.
7. 51 FW personnel had to carry a Wingman card. If you got in trouble downtown so did your wingman...even if he/she was not with you. (Never go out without your wingman!)
8. Added his personal jogging route to the exercise no play area.
9. Interrupted Chapain's sermon one Sunday morn to "Thank Mustangs" for rallying to repair the base after the previous nights thunderstorm.
10. Instituted the "Enlisted use the side door" if utilizing the snack bar or barber shop at the Officers Club. I refused and told my First Sergeant that I would only do so if there was a sign installed. (there never was).
11. Closed down the dorm hooches (doubt he touched the flyer's "Heritage Rooms").
12. Closed down dayrooms to convert to dorm rooms.
13. My personal favorite that impacted me: Created Command Sponsored and Non-Command sponsored shopping days at the Commissary. (To combat black martketing!)
TSgt_KO met Mrs_KO at the commissary one evening after work to buy some groceries. (Mrs_KO was/is Korean and thus was "locally acquired" (this is an actual term used then)). Anyway, we went in and showed our USFK Ration Cards to the Commissary Manager (he happened to be working the ID check that afternoon). He said sorry, but Mrs_KO could not come in since it was a Command Sponsored shopping day (there was no signage telling you what day was what). I pleaded my case that she was not shopping, it was I and that she was simply the shopping list. "Sorry" said the mgr, it was the 51 FW/CC policy (that he did not agree with). So, Mrs_KO took a seat and I proceeded to shop. About 2 weeks later there was a base advisory council meeting...I attended. I brought this up to Chief you know who. He asked what I would recommend as a fix. I said first if the member was shopping, the spouse (regardless of status) should be allowed in. Second, there should be a sign outside indicating which day was which so we knew. Chief said he would look into it. About 2 weeks later in the MIG Alley Flyer was an article stating that the Command Sponsored/Non-Command Sponsored Shopping days were being suspended for 30 days to evaluate any differences in shelf inventory/black marketing. Low and behold...no difference, policy was dropped. I wonder if the JAG might have weighed in and told him that he could not exclude bona fide, authorized dependents from using the facility...
In hindsight I wish I had filed an IG/Congressional, but since it was overturned I went on with life.

BOSS302
07-22-2013, 05:39 AM
6. Directed SNCOs to live at AF village (off base apartments), and directed JR NCOs back on base (cutting the number of US personnel at facility in half). Sounds all and well, but members forced to move at own expense (could not even use GOV) and had to move even if DEROS was next month.


How did he get away with this? Was this before the era of the JFTR and applicable AFIs that spelled-out what one was "entitled" to if forced to move?

A similar thing was happening at Osan while I was there; many SSgts and TSgts lived off-base due to dorms being renovated. Around April, these dorms re-opened and many Chiefs and squadron commanders were telling their NCOs to get ready to move back on base no matter what their DEROS was.

The Wing/CC (Mustang 1) let it be known that he would not see any NCOs moving back on base but instead he would see the dorms re-filled through attrition (incoming PCS personnel). It was one of many common sense decisions made by that Wing/CC and I hope that man goes far. Great commander.

BRUWIN
07-22-2013, 06:02 AM
Time heals all wounds. I think history will vindicate Gen Folgelsong and he will enjoy a legacy comparable to that of other great AF Generals such as Curtis Lemay and Wilbur Creech.

I also found it very refreshing to walk through the woods of Ramstein AB without the noise of rustling dead leaves beneath my feet.

I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S
07-22-2013, 06:05 AM
Yeah, I was at Spang during his reign. Still have the image of him and his fat a** wife standing infront of "Old Triple Seven". I believe Spang won one of those Combat Proud awards, CE friend told they spent $300K to win the $100K award. His F-16 at Spang was vandalized, everyone that worked mids on the flightlight that night got called in for a suprize interogation with OSI at the base theater.

RobotChicken
07-22-2013, 06:46 AM
The Man, the Myth, the Legend.

Did you have any experiences with him personally? Were you affected by his "Combat" programs?

Even after retirement, "Doc" ruffled feathers:

"But, in fairness, Foglesong was probably a poor choice for the MSU post, and we wonder if his nomination would have survived a public confirmation process. While no one has ever doubted Foglesong’s honesty or integrity, he had a reputation in the Air Force for being difficult and arrogant (not exactly rare qualities among fighter pilots).

One retired senior non-commissioned officer, who served under the general, described him as “jerk.” Another former Air Force member, posting on the MSU student paper's website, claimed that Foglesong's "extreme micro-managing, petty reprisals and 'dodgy' use of military funds were legendary." - In From the Cold: "Doc" Steps Down, 2008

"Hey 'Boss302'; your thread made #3 on google search for the DB thats name will never be mentioned. Watch your 6." LOL!

Drackore
07-22-2013, 09:24 AM
Long story short, after convincing my entire leadership chain that this kid deserved it, he had a policy that any medals that weren't "typical" (ie only NCOs get AFCMs) that he got to review. At Ramstein he went as far as ordering me to change it to AFAM. I refused. Then things got silly, then I got the LOR. Kid got his AFCM though.


If you don't mind, what is the story behind this?

TREYSLEDGE
07-22-2013, 10:05 AM
I was at Spangdahlem during Doc's evil reign. He would make surprise visits from Ramstein and the base would go on full alert. Everyone with a vehicle was driving around doing base cleanup (O-6s and Chiefs, too). All orange cones were removed no matter if it caused a safety concerrn. Just total asshattery with his leadership through fear tactics.

The CE Squadron commander from Spang spent a month TDY at Ramstein at the beginning of Combat Proud. His job was to help get Ramstein into Combat Proud compliance so that it would be the model for other USAFE bases to see what Doc expected. He basically sepnt a month counting how many street lights were out at night, measuring grass height and removing non-standard signs. Great use of a squadron commander, eh? Doc also tried to get the cross walk signs removed. These are the kind on poles that hover over the crosswalk and light it up at night. After many recommendations to leave them in because of German traffic laws and electrical issues in removing them, I think he changed his mind.

No matter how Gen Hobbins did as the USAFE commander (I think he did OK), he will always have a place in my heart for declaring victory on the Combat programs and stopping them all about a month after taking command.

KellyinAvon
07-22-2013, 10:14 AM
Time heals all wounds. I think history will vindicate Gen Folgelsong and he will enjoy a legacy comparable to that of other great AF Generals such as Curtis Lemay and Wilbur Creech.

I also found it very refreshing to walk through the woods of Ramstein AB without the noise of rustling dead leaves beneath my feet.
Not even a nibble Bru. The fishing hole ain't what it used to be!

Stang5150
07-22-2013, 10:19 AM
Going around the entire base at Lajes before old "Doc" arrived to make sure that every building on base had their window blinds either all the way up, all the way down, or all even if midway up. I shit you not.......

BOSS302
07-22-2013, 10:30 AM
Not even a nibble Bru. The fishing hole ain't what it used to be!

It has something to do with his retirement; his fishing skills just aren't what they used to be.

CJSmith
07-22-2013, 10:46 AM
Lulz, his facebook page only has 12 likes. It's been up since 2011.

Chief_KO
07-22-2013, 11:53 AM
When VCSAF, at Kirtland for AFOTEC Change of Command. Flew into Albuquerque Apt. Once reaching KAFB, had the driver stop and pick up trash. Before going to the ceremony stopped at the Wing HQ to present a bag of trash to Wing/CC.

Chief_KO
07-22-2013, 12:50 PM
Springtime he passes through SD on his way to his Montana cabin. He visits the commissary/bx to stock up. Base goes on red alert for his visit; cleaning, mowing, making sure commissary/bx is ready, triple checking DV suite. MSG/CC, FSS/CC, SFS/CC, CE/CC, etc. all standing by to assist. I so wanted to be at the Commissary that Sunday (along with Mrs_KO) to block the aisles..but alas I had much better things to do.

technomage1
07-22-2013, 02:12 PM
Springtime he passes through SD on his way to his Montana cabin. He visits the commissary/bx to stock up. Base goes on red alert for his visit; cleaning, mowing, making sure commissary/bx is ready, triple checking DV suite. MSG/CC, FSS/CC, SFS/CC, CE/CC, etc. all standing by to assist. I so wanted to be at the Commissary that Sunday (along with Mrs_KO) to block the aisles..but alas I had much better things to do.

Dear lord will the madness ever end with this guy?

I suppose it's a small price to pay to have him not making stupid waves but geesh. We have a ton of retirees come here, all ranks, and I have never heard of any one of them getting this kind of treatment. Has anyone else?

I've heard Chuck Yeager is a jerk but I don't think even he's this bad.

BISSBOSS
07-22-2013, 02:13 PM
I spent a long time in USAFE...

I was no fan of Chief Gary Coleman EITHER...

BUT...

Doc came to Aviano one one particular visit and brought a band with him to the All-call. He had the band play a cover of Old Time Rock and Roll by Bob Seger while he and Chief Coleman sang...

Like I said - I was no fan of Coleman BUT I felt sorry for the guy. It was VERY apparent that he wanted ZERO parts of the singing duet. It was painful to watch and painful to be a part of.

-BB-

DocBones
07-22-2013, 02:47 PM
With Joe Bonham being gone, don't you think someone should contact Foglesong through Facebook, and ask him to come into the MTFs?

AF Comm Guy
07-22-2013, 03:08 PM
I've seen bad commanders come and go at all levels. The ones that were hated but accomplished the mission were at least tolerable because the job got done. The truly awful ones were the busy body, micro-managers who were totally concerned about additional duties, base beautification and other things unrelated to the primary mission. I've read all these stories about the guy and even heard a few from coworkers but I never personally had to deal with him. My question is this:

What, if anything, did Foglesong actually do that helped the air force mission?

RobotChicken
07-22-2013, 03:26 PM
I've seen bad commanders come and go at all levels. The ones that were hated but accomplished the mission were at least tolerable because the job got done. The truly awful ones were the busy body, micro-managers who were totally concerned about additional duties, base beautification and other things unrelated to the primary mission. I've read all these stories about the guy and even heard a few from coworkers but I never personally had to deal with him. My question is this:

What, if anything, did Foglesong actually do that helped the air force mission?

"Well from base ops and google; he retired."

AF Comm Guy
07-22-2013, 03:29 PM
"Well from base ops and google; he retired."

Ouch! and touche! :swordfight:

DocBones
07-22-2013, 03:38 PM
He helped everyone to value their other COs?

technomage1
07-22-2013, 03:39 PM
I've seen bad commanders come and go at all levels. The ones that were hated but accomplished the mission were at least tolerable because the job got done. The truly awful ones were the busy body, micro-managers who were totally concerned about additional duties, base beautification and other things unrelated to the primary mission. I've read all these stories about the guy and even heard a few from coworkers but I never personally had to deal with him. My question is this:

There's another type you didn't mention. The incompetent. I had one that never (as far as I could tell) left his office. He left the running of the squadron to the shirt - who has the distinction of being the only overtly sexist shirt I've ever known. He went after the women in the squadron - civilian or military - with a vengance. Anyone else he didn't like he bullied relentlessly. If you were his buddy, you could do no wrong. Since I had a female troop who I supported, he hated me too. I was in the orderly room getting something or other done and couldn't believe how he treated the civilian female that worked there.

In the end, the CC was fired shortly before I PCSd due to the results of the unit climate assessement. The shirt ORDERED us to take it after no one wanted to for fear of retribution. I mean, the super had to track names that took it and everything. We discussed it, decided we had to follow the order, and filled out the survey honestly with a statement that we were ordered to take it and did not want to for fear of retribution.

To this day I don't know if the CC ever knew what a total douchebag his shirt was. In the end, it was the shirt that got him fired. That shirt is now pulling a pension and also holds the distinction of being the only person I ever ran across that I have felt flat out did not deserve one. I don't know if he was ever removed from shirt duty but he sure as heck should have been.

AF Comm Guy
07-22-2013, 03:56 PM
There's another type you didn't mention. The incompetent. I had one that never (as far as I could tell) left his office. He left the running of the squadron to the shirt - who has the distinction of being the only overtly sexist shirt I've ever known. He went after the women in the squadron - civilian or military - with a vengance. Anyone else he didn't like he bullied relentlessly. If you were his buddy, you could do no wrong. Since I had a female troop who I supported, he hated me too. I was in the orderly room getting something or other done and couldn't believe how he treated the civilian female that worked there.

In the end, the CC was fired shortly before I PCSd due to the results of the unit climate assessement. The shirt ORDERED us to take it after no one wanted to for fear of retribution. I mean, the super had to track names that took it and everything. We discussed it, decided we had to follow the order, and filled out the survey honestly with a statement that we were ordered to take it and did not want to for fear of retribution.

To this day I don't know if the CC ever knew what a total douchebag his shirt was. In the end, it was the shirt that got him fired. That shirt is now pulling a pension and also holds the distinction of being the only person I ever ran across that I have felt flat out did not deserve one. I don't know if he was ever removed from shirt duty but he sure as heck should have been.

Sadly, incompetence is rampant. They're usually the ones who find all kinds of "make work" because the real job is too difficult. I'm still amazed that our old wing CC made 1-star after failing an ORI. He was a nice enough guy but couldn't lead cub scouts. I figure he had video of some four star blowing a goat.

Your shirt sounds like a couple I've had to deal with. We had a guy at Camp Humphreys in ROK who was notoriously bad. I was told that the theater erupted in cheers and applause when it was announced that he was PCS'ing soon.

KellyinAvon
07-22-2013, 04:03 PM
Springtime he passes through SD on his way to his Montana cabin. He visits the commissary/bx to stock up. Base goes on red alert for his visit; cleaning, mowing, making sure commissary/bx is ready, triple checking DV suite. MSG/CC, FSS/CC, SFS/CC, CE/CC, etc. all standing by to assist. I so wanted to be at the Commissary that Sunday (along with Mrs_KO) to block the aisles..but alas I had much better things to do.

That sorry sack of sh!t with eyeballs has been retired for 6 years and he's still pulling this sh!t??

This is the only individual more despised than McPeak. An intel report of a terrorist matching Doc's description with a stolen ID attempting to gain entry to bases by pretending to be a total a$$hole retired 4-satr could eliminate the problem. I ain't saying empty the magazine, but getting jacked-up 5 or 6 times might cause him to get a clue. Especially if the 4-star he complains to laughs at his sorry arse and hangs up.

71Fish
07-22-2013, 04:50 PM
Sadly, incompetence is rampant. They're usually the ones who find all kinds of "make work" because the real job is too difficult. I'm still amazed that our old wing CC made 1-star after failing an ORI. He was a nice enough guy but couldn't lead cub scouts. I figure he had video of some four star blowing a goat.Your shirt sounds like a couple I've had to deal with. We had a guy at Camp Humphreys in ROK who was notoriously bad. I was told that the theater erupted in cheers and applause when it was announced that he was PCS'ing soon.

To be fair, te ultimate straw that broke the camel's back was from a reserve pilot.
The next guy was a complete douche (IMO and seveal others). There was a collective sign of relief last month or so when he left.

OtisRNeedleman
07-22-2013, 05:51 PM
With Joe Bonham being gone, don't you think someone should contact Foglesong through Facebook, and ask him to come into the MTFs?

What happened to Joe Bonham? Hadn't noticed until you mentioned it.

AF Comm Guy
07-22-2013, 06:53 PM
To be fair, te ultimate straw that broke the camel's back was from a reserve pilot.
The next guy was a complete douche (IMO and seveal others). There was a collective sign of relief last month or so when he left.

Yeah, the "next guy" left on a rather odd note. One moment he was a 1-star select with a sweet assignment, the next moment he was retiring.

technomage1
07-22-2013, 06:56 PM
That sorry sack of sh!t with eyeballs has been retired for 6 years and he's still pulling this sh!t??

This is the only individual more despised than McPeak. An intel report of a terrorist matching Doc's description with a stolen ID attempting to gain entry to bases by pretending to be a total a$$hole retired 4-satr could eliminate the problem. I ain't saying empty the magazine, but getting jacked-up 5 or 6 times might cause him to get a clue. Especially if the 4-star he complains to laughs at his sorry arse and hangs up.

Yep. McPeak is more despised, though not by much. Maj Gen "Foot Fetish" Fiscus rounds out my top 3 just for being plain old creepy and gross.

71Fish
07-22-2013, 07:21 PM
Yeah, the "next guy" left on a rather odd note. One moment he was a 1-star select with a sweet assignment, the next moment he was retiring.

I don't want to use real names here even though I could give a rat's ass about protecting his privacy, but are you talking about "Chemo"? Where was he going?

AF Comm Guy
07-22-2013, 07:40 PM
He was going to Aviano but suddenly turned it all down and retired. I think he pissed in the wrong bowl of Cheerios or something.

DocBones
07-23-2013, 12:06 AM
Otis,

Joe Bonham has been banned from the MTFs for life. I do wonder if Foglesong is related to him...

OtisRNeedleman
07-23-2013, 03:47 AM
Otis,

Joe Bonham has been banned from the MTFs for life. I do wonder if Foglesong is related to him...

Wow. What did he do?

RobotChicken
07-23-2013, 09:26 AM
Wow. What did he do?

"Something along the lines of what 'af comm guy' said......"

BRUWIN
07-23-2013, 11:28 AM
Not even a nibble Bru. The fishing hole ain't what it used to be!

I guess maintenance guys are just too busy to even read these forums anymore.

DocBones
07-23-2013, 12:04 PM
Joe posted and posted and posted all of the same anti religious stuff. After being put into a two day ban for posting that, he kept on doing the same thing. He was told that if he was going to do that, he had to post it into the religion forum, but I guess that he just thought that he was better than anyone else and didn't have to listen to the rules or to the man with the hammer. That is why I demand a Fogelsong DNA matching, to see if they are related!

Just kidding on the last statement.

OtisRNeedleman
07-23-2013, 04:25 PM
Joe posted and posted and posted all of the same anti religious stuff. After being put into a two day ban for posting that, he kept on doing the same thing. He was told that if he was going to do that, he had to post it into the religion forum, but I guess that he just thought that he was better than anyone else and didn't have to listen to the rules or to the man with the hammer. That is why I demand a Fogelsong DNA matching, to see if they are related!

Just kidding on the last statement.

Thanks for the info. I believe the mods are pretty tolerant so Joe basically screwed himself. Oh, well, those who don't listen just have to feel.

Dickie
07-23-2013, 07:44 PM
The Man, the Myth, the Legend.

Did you have any experiences with him personally? Were you affected by his "Combat" programs?

Even after retirement, "Doc" ruffled feathers:

"But, in fairness, Foglesong was probably a poor choice for the MSU post, and we wonder if his nomination would have survived a public confirmation process. While no one has ever doubted Foglesong’s honesty or integrity, he had a reputation in the Air Force for being difficult and arrogant (not exactly rare qualities among fighter pilots).

One retired senior non-commissioned officer, who served under the general, described him as “jerk.” Another former Air Force member, posting on the MSU student paper's website, claimed that Foglesong's "extreme micro-managing, petty reprisals and 'dodgy' use of military funds were legendary." - In From the Cold: "Doc" Steps Down, 2008

I remember painting and repainting a lot of shit over and over at Ramstein to suit the moods of a man whose ego went unchecked.

71Fish
07-23-2013, 09:13 PM
He was going to Aviano but suddenly turned it all down and retired. I think he pissed in the wrong bowl of Cheerios or something.

Do you know the circumstances with his rtirement? He made 1-star. I have a friend at Aviano who was wondering what he hell happened. I retired a year ago so I'm not in the loop as much with the 388th anymore.

He was the one who said it was appropriate (required) to say "sir" to him approx every 8 words.

Chief_KO
07-24-2013, 10:19 PM
Encountered one of Doc's proteges a few years back (think he was on his staff in USAFE). He would email pictures of trash, weeds, etc. from his BlackBerry.

UH1FE
07-24-2013, 10:59 PM
Doc took over USAFE a couple months before I pcsed from Spang. THANK GOD I LEFT! The wing king at Spang was just as bad but in a different way. 18 exercises in 18 months.

AF Comm Guy
07-26-2013, 03:29 PM
Do you know the circumstances with his retirement? He made 1-star. I have a friend at Aviano who was wondering what he hell happened. I retired a year ago so I'm not in the loop as much with the 388th anymore.

He was the one who said it was appropriate (required) to say "sir" to him approx every 8 words.

That's the big mystery. Nobody is talking but obviously something happened. He has the sort of personality where if he wants something done then it gets done, period. That's good as long as you know the rules and how to sidestep any potential land mines. I'm guessing it had something to do with appropriation of funds. Mind you, that's just a guess but it's the only thing I can think of because he just doesn't seem like the type to get caught up in a sex scandal or some other tawdry thing like that. Basically, he got "filtered" out before getting his star where he would get a god complex and really become dangerous.

John Jameson
07-26-2013, 03:46 PM
Encountered one of Doc's proteges a few years back (think he was on his staff in USAFE). He would email pictures of trash, weeds, etc. from his BlackBerry.

Ah yes. PS the initials for this stellar former leader? I was on the receiving end of some of those emails...

Chief_KO
07-26-2013, 05:47 PM
Ah yes. PS the initials for this stellar former leader? I was on the receiving end of some of those emails...

Ding Ding!! Winner winner, chicken dinner! Looks like we've crossed paths...

BRUWIN
07-26-2013, 09:12 PM
When I was at Ramstein Doc was scheduled for Intel brief on the 4th floor (my floor) of the HQ building in a month's time. Doc never came up there. His office was on the 2nd floor and all the nice carpeting and fresh paint and framed photo's stopped there. But now he was coming to the 4th floor and they only had 30 days to get ready. They completely gutted the hallways where he would walk for his intel brief and then gutted the briefing room he would be in. All the offices along the way would have their doors shut and locked since it was an early morning brief and the offices looked like shit. Contractors busted their ass to get this done. After a couple weeks it was finished and spiffy. To complete the job, pieces of old aircraft nose art framed in fine wooden boxes was added and was a very nice touch. The nose art and frames musta cost thousands. Anyways, prior to doc's arrival some female officer saw it and claimed it was sexist...as old WW2 nose art was. Apologies were sent out to everyone on the 4th floor...including me....by a female Col (LOL) who was in charge of the project and responsible for the purchase.. Down came the nose art. There must have been 15 pieces costing a couple grand each. I don't know what they did with it all but I never saw it again. What a goat rope.

When Doc finally showed for the 10 minute brief I just went and got a haircut since none of this had anything to do with my unit (my unit's head shed were just tenants at the Hq building)...when I got back 3 hours later he was gone.

tiredretiredE7
07-26-2013, 09:30 PM
When I was at Ramstein Doc was scheduled for Intel brief on the 4th floor (my floor) of the HQ building in a month's time. Doc never came up there. His office was on the 2nd floor and all the nice carpeting and fresh paint and framed photo's stopped there. But now he was coming to the 4th floor and they only had 30 days to get ready. They completely gutted the hallways where he would walk for his intel brief and then gutted the briefing room he would be in. All the offices along the way would have their doors shut and locked since it was an early morning brief and the offices looked like shit. Contractors busted their ass to get this done. After a couple weeks it was finished and spiffy. To complete the job, pieces of old aircraft nose art framed in fine wooden boxes was added and was a very nice touch. The nose art and frames musta cost thousands. Anyways, prior to doc's arrival some female officer saw it and claimed it was sexist...as old WW2 nose art was. Apologies were sent out to everyone on the 4th floor...including me....by a female Col (LOL) who was in charge of the project and responsible for the purchase.. Down came the nose art. There must have been 15 pieces costing a couple grand each. I don't know what they did with it all but I never saw it again. What a goat rope.

When Doc finally showed for the 10 minute brief I just went and got a haircut since none of this had anything to do with my unit (my unit's head shed were just tenants at the Hq building)...when I got back 3 hours later he was gone.

How does the noseart look on you current office wall?

John Jameson
07-27-2013, 10:00 PM
Ding Ding!! Winner winner, chicken dinner! Looks like we've crossed paths...

Yep. Figured out who I am yet?

71Fish
07-27-2013, 10:46 PM
When Doc finally showed for the 10 minute brief I just went and got a haircut since none of this had anything to do with my unit (my unit's head shed were just tenants at the Hq building)...when I got back 3 hours later he was gone.

Did you miss the haircut thread? :peep

Chief_KO
07-27-2013, 11:43 PM
Yep. Figured out who I am yet?

I have a couple of people in mind based upon your screen name...Did you live a few doors down from us at base X?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-28-2013, 02:11 PM
This thread stirred up some great memories and I went looking through old Stars and Stripes articles and saw one that claimed Doc had over 15 named programs during his tenure at USAFE. However, I could only recall 11 of them; does anyone know the names of missing four programs?

I tried jump on the bandwagon back then and suggested that USAFE create a “Combat Combat” Program that called for precision bombing techniques because very tight bomb patterns always make such nicer aerial photographs. If there is anything that bugs me more it is a sloppy bomb pattern with craters spread out all over the place, it makes the aerial photographs look very unprofessional.

Anyway, here is the list of Doc’s programs I came up with:

Combat Proud
Combat Education
Combat Fitness
Combat Flightline
Combat Touch
Combat Care
Hidden Heroes
Project CHEER
Project Connect
Power Plant Project
Project SMART

Mr. Happy
07-28-2013, 02:35 PM
This thread stirred up some great memories and I went looking through old Stars and Stripes articles and saw one that claimed Doc had over 15 named programs during his tenure at USAFE. However, I could only recall 11 of them; does anyone know the names of missing four programs?

I tried jump on the bandwagon back then and suggested that USAFE create a “Combat Combat” Program that called for precision bombing techniques because very tight bomb patterns always make such nicer aerial photographs. If there is anything that bugs me more it is a sloppy bomb pattern with craters spread out all over the place, it makes the aerial photographs look very unprofessional.

Anyway, here is the list of Doc’s programs I came up with:

Combat Proud
Combat Education
Combat Fitness
Combat Flightline
Combat Touch
Combat Care
Hidden Heroes
Project CHEER
Project Connect
Power Plant Project
Project SMART

Combat Night Hawk or something like that - I think that was the one where SNCOs and officers had to make work center visits on night shifts. Not necessarily a bad thing, but since it was a Doc "Combat" program, it lost all cool-nest.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-28-2013, 02:59 PM
Combat Night Hawk or something like that - I think that was the one where SNCOs and officers had to make work center visits on night shifts. Not necessarily a bad thing, but since it was a Doc "Combat" program, it lost all cool-nest.

Yes, the good old Combat Nighthawk program! How could I forget that one?

Wasn’t there also a Chicken Hawk program? Wait! That was an AETC program at Lackland, never mind.

John Jameson
07-29-2013, 03:08 PM
I have a couple of people in mind based upon your screen name...Did you live a few doors down from us at base X?

Well, a couple of streets down...

giggawatt
07-29-2013, 03:35 PM
This thread stirred up some great memories and I went looking through old Stars and Stripes articles and saw one that claimed Doc had over 15 named programs during his tenure at USAFE. However, I could only recall 11 of them; does anyone know the names of missing four programs?

I tried jump on the bandwagon back then and suggested that USAFE create a “Combat Combat” Program that called for precision bombing techniques because very tight bomb patterns always make such nicer aerial photographs. If there is anything that bugs me more it is a sloppy bomb pattern with craters spread out all over the place, it makes the aerial photographs look very unprofessional.

Anyway, here is the list of Doc’s programs I came up with:

Combat Proud
Combat Education
Combat Fitness
Combat Flightline
Combat Touch
Combat Care
Hidden Heroes
Project CHEER
Project Connect
Power Plant Project
Project SMART

Combat Intro and Combat Outro for in and out processing. So I guess we're only missing one now.

Bunch
07-29-2013, 03:38 PM
Do we have a candidate to be the "new Doc Foglesong" of this generation?

Chief_KO
07-29-2013, 11:30 PM
Do we have a candidate to be the "new Doc Foglesong" of this generation?

I sure as hell hope not!!!!

CJSmith
07-30-2013, 05:06 AM
Do we have a candidate to be the "new Doc Foglesong" of this generation?

No, they're all afraid they will have a lengthy thread after them on MTF.

TJMAC77SP
08-01-2013, 03:12 PM
Combat Night Hawk or something like that - I think that was the one where SNCOs and officers had to make work center visits on night shifts. Not necessarily a bad thing, but since it was a Doc "Combat" program, it lost all cool-nest.

There shouldn't have been a program necessary for that. If your unit conducts 24 hour operations it is just expected (or should be) that senior leadership will make visits to swing and mid shifts. Cops do that and always have.