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View Full Version : Glad to see the AF no longer has a budget problem



ROMAD275
07-09-2013, 11:01 PM
so it can field it's own unique utility uniforms!

Back when they were called "fatigues", the USAF was always an add-on purchaser to Army contracts due to the cost savings of bulk purchasing. When the Army moved from cotton-sateen (which required starch - hence the term "to break starch") to permanent press fatigues the AF said no way - until they saw their costs double or triple. Same thing when the Army moved from fatigues to BDUs. But now there doesn't seem to be the same pressure to curb costs.

Oh, on a trivia side note, back before BDUs, the AF didn't allow subdued rank insignia, even for those of use in TACPs with Amy combat units, thus we had a problem with our "go-to-war" kits. Now officers could just buy Army subdued insignia, but we ROMADs were stuck with our blue-and-silver stripes making us a more visible target. Solution: OD green dye! The dye turned the blue to black and the silver to OD green.

KC-10 FE
07-09-2013, 11:23 PM
I thought I read that the entire DOD was going to start wearing the same uniform again.

Somewhere around the end of 2014 or so I believe?

VFFTSGT
07-09-2013, 11:30 PM
I thought I read that the entire DOD was going to start wearing the same uniform again.

Somewhere around the end of 2014 or so I believe?

Yeah, I think this is why the uniform thing is becoming 'new' news again when it's really old news. I was thinking maybe the OP didn't know the unique uniform (wasteful spending) thing started years ago.

ROMAD275
07-09-2013, 11:35 PM
OH, I knew it; I'm just a tad slow on following through on intentions. :D What is happening AFAIK, is that Congress would like that; did/will they mandate it in the DOD budget?

KC-10 FE
07-09-2013, 11:52 PM
Rumor has it that OCP's (Multicam) is going to be the universal uniform. If true, good idea.

VFFTSGT
07-09-2013, 11:56 PM
Rumor has it that OCP's (Multicam) is going to be the universal uniform. If true, good idea.

I bet we go back to wearing blues all the time so we can stand apart and be unique and look "professional"...

Glad I won't be around for it.

imported_Renazance
07-10-2013, 05:42 AM
Rumor has it that OCP's (Multicam) is going to be the universal uniform. If true, good idea.

That's how it should be. After all, we're one team, one fight, right? But of course top managership from all the services wants to have a d*ck measuring contest with the others and stand out or come up with the "best" uniform. Until they stop trying to one up one another, we'll never see one universal uniform.

USMC0341
07-10-2013, 09:44 AM
That's how it should be. After all, we're one team, one fight, right? But of course top managership from all the services wants to have a d*ck measuring contest with the others and stand out or come up with the "best" uniform. Until they stop trying to one up one another, we'll never see one universal uniform.

I don't think it is so much as wanting the "best" uniform, but more about standing out in the crowd. God forbid if you have a Marine and an Airmen standing side by side and they look the same (except for a frumpy uniform on the Airmen of course), the Marines won't be able to handle that. They install how "special" (take that however you please)we are from the get go, and egos won't allow them to not have a unique uniform.

Personally, I think it is a fine idea, as long as the uniform is suited for the job. Infantry should have a unique uniform as well as maintenance type jobs. Office warriors can wear their Hawaiian shirts and khaki shorts so they are always ready to leave early and play a round of golf.

LFAWes
07-10-2013, 11:40 AM
We need to have a Garrison uniform for all of the military. Plain green, BDU, ABU whatever it is. Then have a Combat uniform for actual combat deployed personel. DCU, Mulitcam, ERDL. What ever we need for that area of the world.

It doesnt make sense for change the uniform for the 90 percent of the Military that doesnt deploy.

imported_Renazance
07-10-2013, 11:45 AM
We need to have a Garrison uniform for all of the military. Plain green, BDU, ABU whatever it is. Then have a Combat uniform for actual combat deployed personel. DCU, Mulitcam, ERDL. What ever we need for that area of the world.

It doesnt make sense for change the uniform for the 90 percent of the Military that doesnt deploy.

But how would they feel like they're contributing to the fight if they don't get to wear the same cool uniform as the combat personnel? Gotta wear the battle rattle in the office to feel like the warriors we're made to think we are.

Chief_KO
07-10-2013, 12:40 PM
There will never be a single uniform that will be liked by all. Perhaps a single uniform fabric, but each service and many functional areas has different requirements (number/size of pockets, reinforced knees/elbow, etc. And for those who advocate for a single look for everyone, don't complain when you're confused for a Solider, Sailor, Coastie, or Marine.
Congress...who now is trying the "help" was one of the biggest problems with the roll-out of the ABU. They mandated the manufacturing plants be built in the Hurricane Katrina relief zone...adding delays, quality problems, and costs.

Also, the services should never spend a single dime on any uniform design ideas. The idea(s) should be presented to the industry...let the industry do the research, development, & testing. The services will then pick the winning design and the industry will make their profits from sales. Isn't THAT how the free-market is supposed to work???

Pullinteeth
07-10-2013, 12:49 PM
It doesnt make sense for change the uniform for the 90 percent of the Military that doesnt deploy.

There must be a HUGE percentage of the Army that doesn't deploy then...I know most in the AF have deployed...

KC-10 FE
07-10-2013, 01:41 PM
From my understanding, one of the purposes of the ABU was for the AF to have a single uniform design for both home station and deployed locations thus negating the requirement of the DCU that we were issued when we deployed before. When I showed up in Afghanistan last time, the first thing I was told is that the ABU is no longer authorized in the AOR and OCP's were the only authorized pattern with the exception of our tan flight suits.

Juggs
07-10-2013, 01:44 PM
From my understanding, one of the purposes of the ABU was for the AF to have a single uniform design for both home station and deployed locations thus negating the requirement of the DCU that we were issued when we deployed before. When I showed up in Afghanistan last time, the first thing I was told is that the ABU is no longer authorized in the AOR and OCP's were the only authorized pattern with the exception of our tan flight suits.

Thats because they realized the ACU is one of the biggest mistakes ever made by the AF big wigs.

KC-10 FE
07-10-2013, 01:47 PM
Thats because they realized the ACU is one of the biggest mistakes ever made by the AF big wigs.

Could have been worse I guess. Could have been that awful blue tiger stiped monstrosity.

Juggs
07-10-2013, 03:00 PM
There will never be a single uniform that will be liked by all. Perhaps a single uniform fabric, but each service and many functional areas has different requirements (number/size of pockets, reinforced knees/elbow, etc. And for those who advocate for a single look for everyone, don't complain when you're confused for a Solider, Sailor, Coastie, or Marine.
Congress...who now is trying the "help" was one of the biggest problems with the roll-out of the ABU. They mandated the manufacturing plants be built in the Hurricane Katrina relief zone...adding delays, quality problems, and costs.

Also, the services should never spend a single dime on any uniform design ideas. The idea(s) should be presented to the industry...let the industry do the research, development, & testing. The services will then pick the winning design and the industry will make their profits from sales. Isn't THAT how the free-market is supposed to work???

I didnt complain when confused for a soldier when we had BDUs and I was stationed with the Army. I was constantly yelled at until they realized I was an Airman.

So yes, a single uniform is the best move. Granted in some communities we just wear what we need to in order to blend in. Wore a canadian one when working with canadians. Still even in garrison we need a single uniform for our armed forces, heck why not coast guard also. Although they wear the blue utilities anyhow.

Yes, KC-10 the blue tiger stripes would've been worse, but they didnt go with those. Therefore, the arctic/gravel pit camo ABU sucks.

Dickie
07-10-2013, 03:28 PM
There will never be a single uniform that will be liked by all. Perhaps a single uniform fabric, but each service and many functional areas has different requirements (number/size of pockets, reinforced knees/elbow, etc. And for those who advocate for a single look for everyone, don't complain when you're confused for a Solider, Sailor, Coastie, or Marine.
Congress...who now is trying the "help" was one of the biggest problems with the roll-out of the ABU. They mandated the manufacturing plants be built in the Hurricane Katrina relief zone...adding delays, quality problems, and costs.

Also, the services should never spend a single dime on any uniform design ideas. The idea(s) should be presented to the industry...let the industry do the research, development, & testing. The services will then pick the winning design and the industry will make their profits from sales. Isn't THAT how the free-market is supposed to work???

It is how its supposed to work Chief, but in practice its a cluster.

Class5Kayaker
07-10-2013, 04:12 PM
Couldn't resist not reposting this pic of CMSgt Roy and AF senior enlisted leaders in a deployed location in Afghanistan. Note all the guys deployed there for 180-365 days are still wearing ABUs, while the senior leaders who were there for less than 48 hours are wearing the "high-speed/tactical" uniforms. This one created a pretty big uproar a while back and definitely sent the wrong message to those who were deployed at the time.

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/110617-F-1010S-015.jpg

Juggs
07-10-2013, 04:17 PM
so it can field it's own unique utility uniforms!

Back when they were called "fatigues", the USAF was always an add-on purchaser to Army contracts due to the cost savings of bulk purchasing. When the Army moved from cotton-sateen (which required starch - hence the term "to break starch") to permanent press fatigues the AF said no way - until they saw their costs double or triple. Same thing when the Army moved from fatigues to BDUs. But now there doesn't seem to be the same pressure to curb costs.

Oh, on a trivia side note, back before BDUs, the AF didn't allow subdued rank insignia, even for those of use in TACPs with Amy combat units, thus we had a problem with our "go-to-war" kits. Now officers could just buy Army subdued insignia, but we ROMADs were stuck with our blue-and-silver stripes making us a more visible target. Solution: OD green dye! The dye turned the blue to black and the silver to OD green.

Yea, then the BDU came and it wasnt to bad. Then the ABU came and it was shitty again. Get told if you want army patches go to the Army. I hate that. How about needing to reprove yourselve to three different BN commanders in 2 yrs. If you've got your right shoulder sleeve insignia its a trust but varify. Most people dont get this.

BENDER56
07-10-2013, 04:36 PM
From my understanding, one of the purposes of the ABU was for the AF to have a single uniform design for both home station and deployed locations thus negating the requirement of the DCU that we were issued when we deployed before.

I remember hearing this too but can't recall if it came from an official, high-level source. Either way, it was a ludicrous fabrication. (Ha, ha -- fabric.) Everyone in the rank and file back then realized the ABU pattern wouldn't conceal anyone wearing it in any environment. If that was the official rationale given for foisting that awful pattern on us, then it was an after-the-fact obfuscation. It's pretty obvious the AF only wanted a distinctive pattern from the get-go.

That said, I can understand the AF's desire to be visible. We were (for the first time since SWA) actually sending tons of airmen into harms way to fight the GWOT® yet all you ever heard about in the news were the soldiers and Marines. So hey, let's make a uniform that stands apart so we can get some credit. So what if it puts our airman at risk due to its lack of concealability, we've got our phony-baloney jobs to protect, here.

Also, even if the pattern was asinine, I actually liked the ABUs. Glad I retired before I had to wear those stoopid green boots, though.

BENDER56
07-10-2013, 04:46 PM
Oh, on a trivia side note, back before BDUs, the AF didn't allow subdued rank insignia, even for those of use in TACPs with Amy combat units, thus we had a problem with our "go-to-war" kits. Now officers could just buy Army subdued insignia, but we ROMADs were stuck with our blue-and-silver stripes making us a more visible target. Solution: OD green dye! The dye turned the blue to black and the silver to OD green.

You must have retired before I joined in '84 because we had subdued rank for our fatigues then. We also had subdued name-tapes and AF-tapes. I'm pretty sure they wore blue and silver ones before I joined, no?

Also, ingenious solution to the problem. Reminds me of a guy who colored in the silver on his blues stripes with a blue marker when he was demoted from Buck to SrA. (For you youngsters, back then the Non-NCO ranks were blue-on-blue.) (Also, we used to have an E-4 NCO rank.) (Also ... oh, just go ask a Chief.)

Roto
07-10-2013, 04:49 PM
Also, even if the pattern was asinine, I actually liked the ABUs. Glad I retired before I had to wear those stoopid green boots, though.

I'm pretty new and haven't worn anything but the ABU, so I gotta ask, what's the problem with the green boots?

jpeters
07-10-2013, 04:53 PM
Yea, then the BDU came and it wasnt to bad. Then the ABU came and it was shitty again. Get told if you want army patches go to the Army. I hate that. How about needing to reprove yourselve to three different BN commanders in 2 yrs. If you've got your right shoulder sleeve insignia its a trust but varify. Most people dont get this.

I agree! Most people that believe in that rule have never had to work or prove themselves to any Army leadership. I heard that too, “If you want to Army patches join the Army” well I joined the AF and the AF sent me to do convoys with the Army. I think they make it harder for the AF guys to earn those patches so if they have some Col. or General willing to give them to you I think you should be able to wear them. You can wear the medals they give you, why not the patches? I know when we were working with the 1st Infantry Division and they gave us the Big Red One patch the Army guys didn’t treat us like the other AF guys because they knew we had to do something to be able to wear that…then about a month later they came down with that no Army patch rule and we were shuffled right back in with the rest of the AF guys.

wildman
07-10-2013, 04:56 PM
I guess I'm the old guy to post in this thread seeing as how we were still wearing fatigues with dark stripes and your regular black boots. I also remember the Msgt stripes as having three rockers and the ones for today's Msgt would have been our Smsgt.

Always,
Wildman

wildman
07-10-2013, 05:09 PM
Top 2 was much better than Top 3
Or Top 4, Top 5 or etc

Oh we had our top 3 E-7, E-8 and E-9. I guess the thinking back then was we did not want to look like the Army with our stripe configuration. Guess that changed. We also had two break downs for E-4, SRA and SGT the second considered an NCO the SRA not.

Was at Ft Leavenworth the day before yesterday and noticed that the Army officers in BDU's were wearing their rank in the middle of their chest and not on the collars.

Always,
Wildman

BENDER56
07-10-2013, 05:14 PM
I'm pretty new and haven't worn anything but the ABU, so I gotta ask, what's the problem with the green boots?

Umm ... ugliest things I've ever seen?

Who, besides airmen, wears green shoes? Peter Pan, maybe. Fairies, maybe. Elves in Santa's workshop, maybe. Other than that, I'm drawing a blank.

Mcjohn1118
07-10-2013, 05:50 PM
I guess I'm the old guy to post in this thread seeing as how we were still wearing fatigues with dark stripes and your regular black boots. I also remember the Msgt stripes as having three rockers and the ones for today's Msgt would have been our Smsgt.

Always,
Wildman

Wildman, when did you serve? I ask because I looked into the history of the AF Chevron and here is what is stated about MSgt and SMSgt from the period of July - December 1958 when the new SMSgt and CMSgt ranks were to be initially fielded. I came in 1993 and the old stripes were still in effect; one up/six down for SMSgt and two up/six down for CMSgt. I did read that when were first switched over from Army Air Corp our MSgts had three up/three down, but again, when SMSgt came on around, the switch to six on the bottom from MSgt was made.
"The choice was finally, and reluctantly, narrowed to a pattern which superimposed on the older Master Sergeant Insignia, one and two additional stripes pointing in the opposite direction (upward) leaving a field of blue between the lower Master Sergeant insignia and the stripes of the new grades."

Juggs
07-10-2013, 07:32 PM
I agree! Most people that believe in that rule have never had to work or prove themselves to any Army leadership. I heard that too, “If you want to Army patches join the Army” well I joined the AF and the AF sent me to do convoys with the Army. I think they make it harder for the AF guys to earn those patches so if they have some Col. or General willing to give them to you I think you should be able to wear them. You can wear the medals they give you, why not the patches? I know when we were working with the 1st Infantry Division and they gave us the Big Red One patch the Army guys didn’t treat us like the other AF guys because they knew we had to do something to be able to wear that…then about a month later they came down with that no Army patch rule and we were shuffled right back in with the rest of the AF guys.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a guy who's only purpose in life is to train and deploy along side Army infantry or SOF. Yea, its dumb. Sacrificing one tradition to make up a different one.

wildman
07-11-2013, 01:55 AM
Wildman, when did you serve? I ask because I looked into the history of the AF Chevron and here is what is stated about MSgt and SMSgt from the period of July - December 1958 when the new SMSgt and CMSgt ranks were to be initially fielded. I came in 1993 and the old stripes were still in effect; one up/six down for SMSgt and two up/six down for CMSgt. I did read that when were first switched over from Army Air Corp our MSgts had three up/three down, but again, when SMSgt came on around, the switch to six on the bottom from MSgt was made.
"The choice was finally, and reluctantly, narrowed to a pattern which superimposed on the older Master Sergeant Insignia, one and two additional stripes pointing in the opposite direction (upward) leaving a field of blue between the lower Master Sergeant insignia and the stripes of the new grades."

Three years with the Army 1967 - 1969 and seventeen years with the Air Force 1971 - 1988. I'm a retired Tsgt.

Always,
Wildman