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SENDBILLMONEY
07-08-2013, 08:18 PM
There's a memo from the Assistant SECDEF for Readiness and Force Management discussing the furlough. My favorite part is "Accordingly, Component heads, installation commanders, and line managers shall take steps to manage workload, but must ensure that borrowed military manpower is not used to compensate for work resulting from a civilian furlough."

1. Any bets on how often the AD folks will see this violated under the guise of managing workload?
2. Is it "managing workload" to detail an Airman to answer the Colonel's secretary's phone during a furlough day?

UH1FE
07-08-2013, 08:20 PM
If I don't do the civilians job on Friday then I may as well go home.

RobotChicken
07-08-2013, 08:21 PM
"More less with less! LMAO!"

VFFTSGT
07-08-2013, 08:35 PM
There's a memo from the Assistant SECDEF for Readiness and Force Management discussing the furlough. My favorite part is "Accordingly, Component heads, installation commanders, and line managers shall take steps to manage workload, but must ensure that borrowed military manpower is not used to compensate for work resulting from a civilian furlough."

1. Any bets on how often the AD folks will see this violated under the guise of managing workload?
2. Is it "managing workload" to detail an Airman to answer the Colonel's secretary's phone during a furlough day?

Another reason and probably the number one reason the military should be made up of MILITARY personnel not civilians. If we were 100% military, we would not have this problem today...they would be forced to make cuts elsewhere but not the people's paychecks.

UH1FE
07-08-2013, 08:48 PM
Furlough days will turn into 3 hour PT sessions followed by 1 hour to shower then a 4 hour lunch.......

raustin0017
07-08-2013, 10:15 PM
I would bet most work centers will not see any negative effect on overall mission success.

Sperry1989
07-08-2013, 11:02 PM
I would bet most work centers will not see any negative effect on overall mission success.

I respectfully disagree with your post. There are certain areas where civilians are able to do a better job than a military person i.e. Wing Plans Rep, IDO, Support Agreements Manager, etc. These jobs take an extraordinary amount of time to become proficient. Many active duty military personnel must meet additional requirements that take them out of the work center for an extended period of time or permanently. These additional requirements include deployment, PME, PCS, PCA, etc. Also, AFSCs have consolidated over the years requiring enlisted members to be familiar with a wide range of duties. It is extremely difficult to become an expert today in the AF in any one area since you need to move around to show growth potential for promotion purposes. In my opinion, if you want an all military force, then the entire promotion system for both officer and enlisted personnel will require restructuring. Are there too many GS employees? Are most of them over paid? Yes to both questions. Just my 2 cents. For the record, I am a GS 9 (pay equal to a jeep SSgt).

UH1FE
07-08-2013, 11:33 PM
It also depends on what command you are in. Some commands are more civilian heavy than others.

Juggs
07-08-2013, 11:43 PM
Furlough days will turn into 3 hour PT sessions followed by 1 hour to shower then a 4 hour lunch.......

I'm OK with that.

Juggs
07-08-2013, 11:45 PM
I would bet most work centers will not see any negative effect on overall mission success.

I would bet most Airmen and thier families will be the ones expereincing the negative effects. Because in the AF eyes the mission comes above everything else. Including safety.

BRUWIN
07-08-2013, 11:52 PM
My seat will be completely empty on Friday. Mark my words...WW3 will occur Friday.

raustin0017
07-08-2013, 11:53 PM
So you think Airmen are going to have to work extra shifts? Really?

raustin0017
07-08-2013, 11:57 PM
I understand how important the civilian work force is to the mission. Taking it down to a 4-day work week will not have a dramatic impact. They will find a way to get done in 4 days...what used to take 5. CCs at all levels understand how all the fluff needs to get cut. All the extra crap everyone has been bitching about for years...now is the time to find efficiencies.

ConfusedAirman
07-09-2013, 12:15 AM
How many skinny-ass troops does it take to cover one fat-ass civilian?

KellyinAvon
07-09-2013, 12:25 AM
How many skinny-ass troops does it take to cover one fat-ass civilian?

Not filling their shoes, but filling their chairs?

BRUWIN
07-09-2013, 12:39 AM
How many skinny-ass troops does it take to cover one fat-ass civilian?

Right Mr Pot. I notice this everyday when I come in and what looks like the Special Olympics is being conducted at the track for all the PT retards. And forget about finding a parking space at the gym...they have to run a shuttle bus to get everyone at that mandatory formation. The other day I passed and I swore they had people wearing those sumo costumes that makes people run funny. Then when it's over they all come into our work and empty the snack bar of every last Pop Tart and Mountain Dew in there.

UH1FE
07-09-2013, 12:47 AM
Right Mr Pot. I notice this everyday when I come in and what looks like the Special Olympics is being conducted at the track for all the PT retards. And forget about finding a parking space at the gym...they have to run a shuttle bus to get everyone at that mandatory formation. The other day I passed and I swore they had people wearing those sumo costumes that makes people run funny. Then when it's over they all come into our work and empty the snack bar of every last Pop Tart and Mountain Dew in there.

Wait...........Yea yea you're right. Truth hurts people far more than a lie ever will.

imported_AFKILO7
07-09-2013, 12:55 AM
We have quite a few civilians in our unit and in one particular area their absence is going to be a show stopper no doubt. We don't even have enough AD military folks available to effectively cover their positions AND meet our annual requirements. Taking care of the dogs is a 24/7 operation (300+) which leaves not enough to train them...

USMC0341
07-09-2013, 01:42 AM
We have quite a few civilians in our unit and in one particular area their absence is going to be a show stopper no doubt. We don't even have enough AD military folks available to effectively cover their positions AND meet our annual requirements. Taking care of the dogs is a 24/7 operation (300+) which leaves not enough to train them...

I heard Bruwin's Fridays have cleared up and he likes to PT, maybe he could walk them.

BRUWIN
07-09-2013, 02:35 AM
I heard Bruwin's Fridays have cleared up and he likes to PT, maybe he could walk them.

Nah...I will play 18 holes of golf faster than most of the few that do run could complete the mile and a half. As a retiree we've been banned from using the on-base clinic anymore due the fact that the better part of the clinic's day is processing AF AD PT waivers. We were authorized to use the Dining Fac for lunch but that's changed since all the fat ass AD folks complained there wasn't enough apple crumble topped with 4 scoops of vanilla ice cream to go around.

Capt Alfredo
07-09-2013, 02:45 AM
Now, Bruwin, if you were truly mission-essential (i.e. in a NIP-funded billet), you wouldn't be getting furloughed....shows where the DNI thinks the priorities are!

VFFTSGT
07-09-2013, 02:56 AM
There is no bitching like GS bitching.
Them dudes talk and threaten to quit
Weekly. Most are retired SNCOs.

Empty threats...most if not all couldn't survive without the government nipple.

VFFTSGT
07-09-2013, 03:14 AM
I'm not joking, never met people who disliked jobs so much.
Only morale was to dream and talk about quitting.

I know you aren't...I think the unhappiest people are government employees, but yet, they stick around for the government nipple.

TWilliams
07-09-2013, 03:29 AM
Since it is one team, one fight, I think I'll let my guys off too in a show of solidarity with our civilian Airmen. Only we'll string ours out over the work week. I think getting off work an extra hour and half each day is fair. Oh wait, we have to call the war off first. Does anyone have the number to Mulla Omar so we can let the Taliban know the fights over now?

In all seriousness though, the civilians I've worked with throughout my career have had a tremendous positive impact on training and mission accomplishment since they are the only ones that stay in a position long enough to be the experts at their job as well as having connections to get things done in spite of the bureaucracy. I think it is a shame that our elected officials can't get their fiscal priorities straight and regular people have to suffer the consequences. It still boggles my mind that we began a draw down while fighting a war.

BRUWIN
07-09-2013, 03:32 AM
Empty threats...most if not all couldn't survive without the government nipple.

The blue suiters here are already bitching about how they'll have to pick up the slack and how it will affect them. It will be different to see them actually have to put in more than 40-45 hours a work week when they are at home station. I grew up in an AF force where only 50 hours a week was a blessing but they have yet to see it. It will be interesting to see how they cope with an extended work week and the PT charades they utilize having to be pushed to the side.

imported_oih82w8
07-09-2013, 01:23 PM
I would bet most Airmen and thier families will be the ones expereincing the negative effects. Because in the AF eyes the mission comes above everything else. Including safety.

At least the Airmen are still getting an entire paycheck (for now), while the Civil Service members are receiving a 20% cut in their pay.

How about that for a "negative effect"?

coloringoutsidethelines
07-09-2013, 01:34 PM
So you think Airmen are going to have to work extra shifts? Really?

Case in point I'm now on call since our civilians can't cover it anymore. . So instead of the pain being spread among 7 people we will have 3 people passing the phone back and forth.

imported_oih82w8
07-09-2013, 01:38 PM
Case in point I'm now on call since our civilians can't cover it anymore. . So instead of the pain being spread among 7 people we will have 3 people passing the phone back and forth.

I think you meant to say "are not able to", thanks to our "lame duck congress".

MickeyMouse
07-09-2013, 01:44 PM
Does this include putting ARTs on military orders? I work at a Reserve base where the majority of ARTs (including all commanders) will be working each furlough day on military orders. So most will in fact be making more money with the furlough.

coloringoutsidethelines
07-09-2013, 01:48 PM
Also maybe I'm just lucky but civilians in my job are actually very competent.

stephenlosey
07-09-2013, 02:15 PM
I'm a reporter with Air Force Times, and I'm interested in talking to some airmen about how the civilian furlough is affecting them. You can e-mail me at slosey@airforcetimes.com with your observations. Thanks.

Shaken1976
07-09-2013, 02:17 PM
We have no leave or doctor appointments on furlough days. We have to be in the office at all times. If your kid is sick....better find someone to keep them.

retiredAFcivvy
07-09-2013, 04:24 PM
There is no bitching like GS bitching.
Them dudes talk and threaten to quit
Weekly. Most are retired SNCOs.
I really believe you are talking about a very small minority. SNCOs have put in at least 20 in the military, transitioned to a job in the same environment, and didn't make SNCO sitting around griping.

Luvnlife
07-09-2013, 05:52 PM
Also maybe I'm just lucky but civilians in my job are actually very competent.
Is that the norm? There's almost no change at all here, they could be gone for a week and the same amount of work will be done.

imported_oih82w8
07-09-2013, 06:24 PM
I'm a reporter with Air Force Times, and I'm interested in talking to some airmen about how the civilian furlough is affecting them. You can e-mail me at slosey@airforcetimes.com with your observations. Thanks.

:spam:

VFFTSGT
07-09-2013, 06:36 PM
I really believe you are talking about a very small minority. SNCOs have put in at least 20 in the military, transitioned to a job in the same environment, and didn't make SNCO sitting around griping.

Making SNCO (MSgt) is not that hard...it is actually quite simple - show up to work (or bake sale), pass your PT test, don't get a DUI, and don't sexually assault someone and you are golden. Notice I did not say anything about be knowledgeable at your job or perform duties within your AFSC. Heck you can even get a DUI and make it...well a few years ago you could, maybe not today. There are many good ones out there, but have came across just as many incompetent ones that got there by spending their time organizing bake sales.

VFFTSGT
07-09-2013, 06:53 PM
Does this include putting ARTs on military orders? I work at a Reserve base where the majority of ARTs (including all commanders) will be working each furlough day on military orders. So most will in fact be making more money with the furlough.

I would say whoever is putting those people on orders is wrong.


...borrowed military manpower is not used to compensate for work resulting from a civilian furlough...

They are borrowing people from the reserves to fill civilian positions, regardless if they are Air (or Army) Reserve Technicians (ART)...even though it is still the same people, they are still replacing civilians with military.

BRUWIN
07-09-2013, 09:24 PM
Now, Bruwin, if you were truly mission-essential (i.e. in a NIP-funded billet), you wouldn't be getting furloughed....shows where the DNI thinks the priorities are!

Thanks for me reminding me that DNI funded civilian billets are untouched. That just rubs salt in an open wound.

technomage1
07-09-2013, 09:49 PM
There's a memo from the Assistant SECDEF for Readiness and Force Management discussing the furlough. My favorite part is "Accordingly, Component heads, installation commanders, and line managers shall take steps to manage workload, but must ensure that borrowed military manpower is not used to compensate for work resulting from a civilian furlough."

1. Any bets on how often the AD folks will see this violated under the guise of managing workload?
2. Is it "managing workload" to detail an Airman to answer the Colonel's secretary's phone during a furlough day?

We've been violating this for several months now. Since our civilian overtime got cut, we've had to work weekends. It's on a rotation, so it's not horribly bad, but we're still doing it.

here is the memo for anyone interested: www.cpol.army.mil/library/general/2013sequestration/20130628-ASecDef-Civilian-Furloughs.pdf

Venus
07-09-2013, 09:56 PM
The furloughs will hurt mx and ops the most when it comes to have available acft to fly. It takes about 6 months to get a KC-135 through a PDM inspection with civilians, contractors, plus engineers working 7 days a week. So a place like Tinker working 4 day weeks with no overtime will not deliver acft on time back to the warfighter, parts won't be repaired, in the field parts canning will be even worse from jet to jet. Jets in the field will be grounded due to the fact that their time has run out for major inspection since there is no slot for them to enter PDM. Now how AFSC runs their depots leaves alot to be desired in the MRO industry maybe they will figure it out to get the most out of 4 days. Plus stop changing how they do everything every 2 years due to new commanders who just have to change something good or bad to show they have executive decision making skills.

sicnic
07-09-2013, 10:14 PM
Well I know as a guard technician I am using my annual training days to cover my furlough days. It all depends on your locality pay and what rank you are if you are going to make more. In my case as a WG-10 getting paid as a TSGT I will lose roughly $70 a day but it is a lot better than losing $230-240 a day. I don't see anything wrong with using annual training days to cover the days when there are a furlough especially when there are traditional guardsmen at work for annual training and rely on the technicians for that training.

VFFTSGT
07-09-2013, 10:55 PM
Well I know as a guard technician I am using my annual training days to cover my furlough days. It all depends on your locality pay and what rank you are if you are going to make more. In my case as a WG-10 getting paid as a TSGT I will lose roughly $70 a day but it is a lot better than losing $230-240 a day. I don't see anything wrong with using annual training days to cover the days when there are a furlough especially when there are traditional guardsmen at work for annual training and rely on the technicians for that training.

Are you using your annual training days to conduct your annual training or are you using your annual training days to perform duties you normally would as a guard technician (civilian)? If the latter, then you/your unit are wrong.


The furloughs will hurt mx and ops the most when it comes to have available acft to fly. It takes about 6 months to get a KC-135 through a PDM inspection with civilians, contractors, plus engineers working 7 days a week. So a place like Tinker working 4 day weeks with no overtime will not deliver acft on time back to the warfighter, parts won't be repaired, in the field parts canning will be even worse from jet to jet. Jets in the field will be grounded due to the fact that their time has run out for major inspection since there is no slot for them to enter PDM. Now how AFSC runs their depots leaves alot to be desired in the MRO industry maybe they will figure it out to get the most out of 4 days. Plus stop changing how they do everything every 2 years due to new commanders who just have to change something good or bad to show they have executive decision making skills.

DOD (along with Congress and the White House) played politics with people's lives. Thier bluff got called...so now they have to make the people and mission "suffer" to attempt to prove they weren't bluffing.

So, any delayed aircraft overhaul was self-inflicted. The DOD/AF is the one that let AFMC grow into the inefficient monster it is in the first place.

LFAWes
07-10-2013, 11:50 AM
The DOD/AF is the one that let AFMC grow into the inefficient monster it is in the first place.

I guess Congress has no say in how Depot work is to performed? There are a million ways to do thing better. Like get rid of all the aircraft that the Air Force no longer needs or has funds to fly or repair. But Congress wont let the Air Force fly them to DM. So we end up towing them around in circles so they dont get stuck in the same parking spot.

coloringoutsidethelines
07-10-2013, 11:51 AM
For god's sake we need to fail horribly at this. If we get through this period with nothing bad happening it will make people think they can pull this crap again.

LFAWes
07-10-2013, 11:57 AM
For god's sake we need to fail horribly at this. If we get through this period with nothing bad happening it will make people think they can pull this crap again.

Were not going to fail. Its just going to be " Do more with less " on Steriods. We will live through it with a few bumps.

The problem is next year. When the budget comes around. And Congress says " See you really dont need all of these people "

Silverback
07-10-2013, 12:16 PM
Were not going to fail. Its just going to be " Do more with less " on Steriods. We will live through it with a few bumps.

The problem is next year. When the budget comes around. And Congress says " See you really dont need all of these people "

This is what always happens. When they see that we can complete the mission with less people, we lose those people. In my experience, so long as the mission continues and a unit is green across the board they figure there is no problem. No unit wants to fail in their mission and be in the red, so they will do everything to avoid it. What they fail to see is that during that time of elevated stress military personnel are working harder to make the goal. It’s a catch 22.

SomeRandomGuy
07-10-2013, 12:20 PM
Were not going to fail. Its just going to be " Do more with less " on Steriods. We will live through it with a few bumps.

The problem is next year. When the budget comes around. And Congress says " See you really dont need all of these people "

The problem is not that we do not have enough money. The problem is that we were never told how much money we had until it was too late. We started the fiscal year on what is called a CRA (continuing resolution authority). At that point congress authorized us to spend up to the levels we spent at the previous year. Evereyone from President Obama all the way down the chain said not to worry about sequestration because it would never happen. This left us financial managers in a sticky situation. We needed to renew contracts and continue operations without knowing how much money we actually had. We never recieved an updated CRA (never actually recieved a budget) until around april which was already 6 months (halfway) through the fiscal year. At that point we could not undo the contracts we had already signed. That meant we had to disproportionaltely make cuts the 2nd half of the year instead of spreading them evenly. If we can simply get a CRA or budget done (congress has not passed a budget since 2008) we will be fine next year. Even without a CRA next year we will not be stupid enough to spend all our money up front without knowing how much more we will be getting.

Juggs
07-10-2013, 01:10 PM
At least the Airmen are still getting an entire paycheck (for now), while the Civil Service members are receiving a 20% cut in their pay.

How about that for a "negative effect"?

They're civilians, get a second job. Hows that for a reaction. My buddy is a base FF he just got a second job for his furlough days. No its not as much, but its better than losing 20%. Also whats 20% of say 70K. Yea they didnt break your piggy bank.

Cant and arent able to. Wow splitting hairs eh? He wasnt chucking spears at the GS employees. Chill out.

sicnic
07-10-2013, 02:51 PM
Yeah and SSgt-Tsgt living overseas make roughly 70k per year as well only they pay taxes on 30k of it. As a married SSgt stationed in England 2010 I made a little over 60k not including the money I got paid to go TDY to Turkey, Bulgari, and Iceland. I paid taxes on 25 grand. Just think how much more revenue the government could generate if they taxed BAH, BAS, and COLA. It is hard to get a second job and tell your new employer you can only work on Friday most are just not that flexible with the scheduling.

Juggs
07-10-2013, 03:02 PM
Yeah and SSgt-Tsgt living overseas make roughly 70k per year as well only they pay taxes on 30k of it. As a married SSgt stationed in England 2010 I made a little over 60k not including the money I got paid to go TDY to Turkey, Bulgari, and Iceland. I paid taxes on 25 grand. Just think how much more revenue the government could generate if they taxed BAH, BAS, and COLA. It is hard to get a second job and tell your new employer you can only work on Friday most are just not that flexible with the scheduling.

you also paid about $6 for a liter of gas.

As for simply doing more with less. We are doing less with less. The weapons school has canceled classes. Example of less with less.

sicnic
07-10-2013, 03:05 PM
Not true the gas on base was cheaper than most places in the States. Only if you were traveling far from base would you pay more and even then you could purchse "gas coupons" to use at certain gas stations for discounted gas.

Silverback
07-10-2013, 04:02 PM
I was thinking about this more and I came to the following conclusion. Everyone is being affected by the budget cuts. Yes the civilian force is being furloughed, but the active duty Air Force is being cut. I believe the Air Force is trying to cut another 3,000 active duty slots with roll backs. When I think about it in these terms, I am sure those who are receiving the axe would have preferred a pay cut vs. being let go.

Juggs
07-10-2013, 04:15 PM
Not true the gas on base was cheaper than most places in the States. Only if you were traveling far from base would you pay more and even then you could purchse "gas coupons" to use at certain gas stations for discounted gas.

You could purchase a gas coupon? So how much would you pay for this coupon and how much of a discount? I was always told it was more expensive over there. Never been stationed in europe.

jpeters
07-10-2013, 04:37 PM
You could purchase a gas coupon? So how much would you pay for this coupon and how much of a discount? I was always told it was more expensive over there. Never been stationed in europe.

You have to buy the gas coupons in bulk and you’re only allowed so many gallons a month. It ends up being about the same price you would pay for gas in the states. At least that’s how it was in 06 when I was in Aviano. I think it did cost more to live there, but I didn’t stay home or near base in the little military bubble, I actually traveled and made the most of my time while I was there.

TWilliams
07-11-2013, 08:00 PM
I had to go to the urinalysis center yesterday where a sergeant from mental health was learning how to do the civilian administrator's job specifically to cover for his furlough. I guess my base didn't the memo.

USMC0341
07-12-2013, 04:37 PM
check this turd out, he should be furloughed for looking like a turd sandwhich. oh and by the way he is talking to the civvies about being furloughed.

nevermind i have no idea how to upload a picture...but trust me he looks like a bag of ass AND has his hand in his pocket.

Creaminess
07-12-2013, 04:53 PM
check this turd out, he should be furloughed for looking like a turd sandwhich. oh and by the way he is talking to the civvies about being furloughed.

nevermind i have no idea how to upload a picture...but trust me he looks like a bag of ass AND has his hand in his pocket.

Somebody who has his hand in his pocket? OMG! They're a terrible troop and possibly a threat to national security!

Pullinteeth
07-12-2013, 05:07 PM
I was thinking about this more and I came to the following conclusion. Everyone is being affected by the budget cuts. Yes the civilian force is being furloughed, but the active duty Air Force is being cut. I believe the Air Force is trying to cut another 3,000 active duty slots with roll backs. When I think about it in these terms, I am sure those who are receiving the axe would have preferred a pay cut vs. being let go.

Apples and grasshoppers....the personnel cuts have nothing to do with the budget...

USMC0341
07-12-2013, 06:08 PM
Somebody who has his hand in his pocket? OMG! They're a terrible troop and possibly a threat to national security!

they should be banished and have all trouser pockets sewn shut.

fufu
07-12-2013, 06:12 PM
check this turd out, he should be furloughed for looking like a turd sandwhich. oh and by the way he is talking to the civvies about being furloughed.

nevermind i have no idea how to upload a picture...but trust me he looks like a bag of ass AND has his hand in his pocket.

If they don't want me to put my hands in my pockets, they shouldn't give me pockets.

71Fish
07-12-2013, 06:20 PM
If they don't want me to put my hands in my pockets, they shouldn't give me pockets.

They are gov't issued pockets afterall.

Class5Kayaker
07-12-2013, 06:29 PM
check this turd out, he should be furloughed for looking like a turd sandwhich. oh and by the way he is talking to the civvies about being furloughed.

nevermind i have no idea how to upload a picture...but trust me he looks like a bag of ass AND has his hand in his pocket.

Click HERE (http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1596287-AF-leaders-stand-behind-civilians-during-tough-furlough-times/page2) for instructions I recently posted on how to hotlink pics. I'm curious what the pic looks like for a reaction like yours.

USMC0341
07-12-2013, 06:30 PM
If they don't want me to put my hands in my pockets, they shouldn't give me pockets.

they issue you a lot of stuff you probably never use, how about pt gear? i heard you guys don't do any of that, all about how you do your job and such.

fufu
07-12-2013, 07:48 PM
they issue you a lot of stuff you probably never use, how about pt gear? i heard you guys don't do any of that, all about how you do your job and such.

I'd explain my job to you, but I'm afraid you won't comprehend. Too many big words.

USMC0341
07-12-2013, 09:01 PM
I'd explain my job to you, but I'm afraid you won't comprehend. Too many big words.

I appreciate you sparing my brainpower, I wouldn't want my neurons to go all spastic trying to keep up. Might have a misfire or something.

Comrade
07-13-2013, 12:52 AM
"A Marine with cold hands and empty pockets is a fool." - Chesty Puller

USMC0341
07-13-2013, 01:39 AM
"A Marine with cold hands and empty pockets is a fool." - Chesty Puller

In the field hands and pockets go together like lamb and tuna fish.

LFAWes
07-13-2013, 03:59 AM
There’s a big difference between Furlough and Sequestration cuts. When leadership says no one should replace a furloughed employee for the day. They shouldn’t. But some tasks have to be accomplished.

If the task isn’t being done because of Sequestration cuts. Then Active Duty will have to step in to do the task. Someone has to do it. And if all the Civilians and Contractors are gone. Guess what?

Example, a few years ago the Air Force cut the money for squadron cleaning ladies. Some units had the cleaning schedule reduced. And some had them cut completely. Did leadership say no one is going to take their place? Nope, Active Duty is doing it.

At Edwards they let go the contract go for the guys who mow the lawns. Granted at Edwards there’s not that much to do. But since they were let go no one has done it. Think it’s going to stay that way forever? You can bet in some meeting somewhere they are looking into who is going to do the mowing if the money for the contractors never comes back.

It will be like it was when I came in back 1980.

Base clean up Saturday.

Juggs
07-15-2013, 12:57 PM
There’s a big difference between Furlough and Sequestration cuts. When leadership says no one should replace a furloughed employee for the day. They shouldn’t. But some tasks have to be accomplished.

If the task isn’t being done because of Sequestration cuts. Then Active Duty will have to step in to do the task. Someone has to do it. And if all the Civilians and Contractors are gone. Guess what?

Example, a few years ago the Air Force cut the money for squadron cleaning ladies. Some units had the cleaning schedule reduced. And some had them cut completely. Did leadership say no one is going to take their place? Nope, Active Duty is doing it.

At Edwards they let go the contract go for the guys who mow the lawns. Granted at Edwards there’s not that much to do. But since they were let go no one has done it. Think it’s going to stay that way forever? You can bet in some meeting somewhere they are looking into who is going to do the mowing if the money for the contractors never comes back.

It will be like it was when I came in back 1980.

Base clean up Saturday.

We have plenty of A1Cs to mow lawns. Use them wisely.

imported_chipotleboy
07-15-2013, 02:49 PM
"A Marine with cold hands and empty pockets is a fool." - Chesty Puller

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet." -- Mark Twain

imported_chipotleboy
07-15-2013, 02:50 PM
Empty threats...most if not all couldn't survive without the government nipple.

That explains why I get contacted about once a month for other jobs. Last time, it was to be department chair/full professor at my alma mater. My current job is more interesting.

SomeRandomGuy
07-15-2013, 04:22 PM
Everyone should feel sorry for this retired major who is being forced to take a 20% pay cut. I wonder how he survives on only his civilian pay and his pension as a retired major? Life must be pretty rough. They even cancelled his lateral move to Cali because we are no longer paying the costs related to selling your hosue when you make a CIV PCS. Poor guy :drama

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/military/wpafb/civilian-defense-worker-starts-furlough

Pullinteeth
07-15-2013, 04:45 PM
If they don't want me to put my hands in my pockets, they shouldn't give me pockets.

Just keep your thumbs out...then your hands aren't in your pockets...

VFFTSGT
07-15-2013, 04:52 PM
Everyone should feel sorry for this retired major who is being forced to take a 20% pay cut. I wonder how he survives on only his civilian pay and his pension as a retired major? Life must be pretty rough. They even cancelled his lateral move to Cali because we are no longer paying the costs related to selling your hosue when you make a CIV PCS. Poor guy :drama

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/military/wpafb/civilian-defense-worker-starts-furlough

Pathetic example of a furloughed employee "suffering."

Perfect example of my comment about not being able to survive without the government nipple.

Someone has to have the number at their fingertips. What does a retired major bring in on retirement?!

sandsjames
07-15-2013, 04:56 PM
As a retiree, I would love to do a job where I got the 3 day weekend every week, IF I was working.

Class5Kayaker
07-15-2013, 05:02 PM
Pathetic example of a furloughed employee "suffering."

Perfect example of my comment about not being able to survive without the government nipple.

Someone has to have the number at their fingertips. What does a retired major bring in on retirement?!

If he retired at 20 and wasn't prior enlisted (which could mean he had more than 20 years and retired as a Maj) then his retired pay would be around $3,452/month (I say around because I used the chart for folks retiring in 2013 and he probably retired before 2013 since he is a GS emplyee at WP already looking to move to a different base). If he was prior-e with more than 20 years, no telling how much but an example would be 25 years at O-4 = $4,433/month.

SomeRandomGuy
07-15-2013, 05:12 PM
Pathetic example of a furloughed employee "suffering."

Perfect example of my comment about not being able to survive without the government nipple.

Someone has to have the number at their fingertips. What does a retired major bring in on retirement?!

A Major who retires in 2013 under Final pay with 20 years of service would recieve $3525 in monthly pay and $42,295 annually. I would assume that a retired Major could easily land a GS11 job. So he is probably making $40,000 in retired pay and then about $80,000 in Civilian pay. With a 20% cut he would end up losing about $307 per week with a 20 percent cut. Yes that would sting but he would still be making over $100K. Seems like a terrible idea for him to go on the news complaing that he only makes $100K and is having a hard time getting by.

http://militarypay.defense.gov/mpcalcs/Calculators/FinalPayHigh3Result.aspx

BRUWIN
07-15-2013, 08:15 PM
A Major who retires in 2013 under Final pay with 20 years of service would recieve $3525 in monthly pay and $42,295 annually. I would assume that a retired Major could easily land a GS11 job. So he is probably making $40,000 in retired pay and then about $80,000 in Civilian pay. With a 20% cut he would end up losing about $307 per week with a 20 percent cut. Yes that would sting but he would still be making over $100K. Seems like a terrible idea for him to go on the news complaing that he only makes $100K and is having a hard time getting by.

http://militarypay.defense.gov/mpcalcs/Calculators/FinalPayHigh3Result.aspx

GS-11 does not make $80,000 a year...at least this one doesn't. I make about as much as an E-7 with 16 years of service once you throw in their BAH. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, but please don't inflate GS salaries to make a point just because ya'll seem to have a big hard on that civilians need to have the screws put right to them. I'll be fine with whatever happens...furloughs, permanent furloughs, whatever. I'll move on if not needed anymore. However, there are actually quite a few loyal civilians out there with no military retirement that are being affected. In fact the majority of civilian personnel that this all effects are not retired military. If you guys want retired military punished than talk to your congressman about changing the rules so that military retirees should not be allowed to work for the government ever again. That way, you can sleep at night knowing we are out of your lives forever and you can continue to collect your own inflated Active Duty salaries that I was even questioning my last 10 years in uniform.

I have a dual military SSgt couple living a block away from me right now. I drive by their house everyday. They have a huge ass Ram P/U truck, and Honda Odysee van as well as a giant fishing boat parked in the driveway. The house is brand spanking new built to their own specs. They have a guy mow their perfectly manicured lawn with one of those fancy reel mowers that are used to cut golf course greens. And the yard is twice the size of mine. Every time I drive buy I think of taking a picture and sending it to my congressman and asking "is it really civilian salaries that need to be reeled in?" But I don't, even though when I was a SSgt I was a one car family driving a real piece of shit and could barely make mortgage payments on what was essentially a townhouse in a very rough area. You guys have come a long way and civilians don't have it near as good as you think they do....particularly those without the benefit of a military retirement check that in reality only applies to a small number of civilians working for the government.

You guys also need to look inward. I experienced the active duty pay gravy train my last 10 years in. Comparing both...I would take my military pay and benefits any day.

Rusty Jones
07-15-2013, 08:21 PM
I say federal civilians should get the same pay and benefits as active duty military. That way, both sides benefit. We civilians will see far more money - probably double - and active duty military still stop thinking we get paid more than they do.

It's a win/win situation!

SomeRandomGuy
07-15-2013, 08:36 PM
GS-11 does not make $80,000 a year...at least this one doesn't. I make about as much as an E-7 with 16 years of service once you throw in their BAH. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, but please don't inflate GS salaries to make a point just because ya'll seem to have a big hard on that civilians need to have the screws put right to them.

According to OPM a GS 11 makes between $50,538-$65,703 (not including locality adjustments. You are correct $80,000 was inflated. So I guess if the guy was GS11 step 1 he loses 20% of $50 but still banks close to $90,000 including retired pay. My whole point was that there has to be a better example of someone getting screwed by furlough than a retired major collecting a pension and GS pay.

BRUWIN
07-15-2013, 08:58 PM
According to OPM a GS 11 makes between $50,538-$65,703 (not including locality adjustments. You are correct $80,000 was inflated. So I guess if the guy was GS11 step 1 he loses 20% of $50 but still banks close to $90,000 including retired pay. My whole point was that there has to be a better example of someone getting screwed by furlough than a retired major collecting a pension and GS pay.

There are. I work with 4 other GS-11s daily. I'm the only retiree. All are prior military with 3 of them having an average of about 6 years TIS before they got out. The other was a 15 year reservist that got out. All have Bachelor's Degrees and make about $57,000 with everything added up but there are some increases with Sunday pay and night differential pays. I would say roughly they make about $60,000. For 2 of them it's their only family income. Those are the people this is really killing. They will lose roughly over $1,000 a month. That's a couple car payments per month. Of those two single income guys, one has a $1,200 child support payment that he don't know if he can make this month. And I'm not trying to lay on a sob story so everybody will feel sorry for us civilians because there are folks like myself that will be fine. However, the two single income guys I speak of have deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan and been loyal civil servants since the day they showed up.

All I ask is that when you speak of civilians keep in mind that they aren't all retired "living off the government nipple" as VFFTSGT so eloquently puts it. In fact...very few are, especially when you get away from the DoD. And I won't apologize for taking a GS job while collecting military retirement. In my current job I'm just as susceptible to deploying as an active duty member is and I show up for 12 hour shifts night or day as we speak. The only difference is I don't wear a uniform and I have to deal with the "fuck civilians" attitude such as VFF likes to demonstrate. That's ok...because when I've had enough I can walk right out the door, which is nice.

VFFTSGT
07-15-2013, 10:27 PM
There are. I work with 4 other GS-11s daily. I'm the only retiree. All are prior military with 3 of them having an average of about 6 years TIS before they got out. The other was a 15 year reservist that got out. All have Bachelor's Degrees and make about $57,000 with everything added up but there are some increases with Sunday pay and night differential pays. I would say roughly they make about $60,000. For 2 of them it's their only family income. Those are the people this is really killing. They will lose roughly over $1,000 a month. That's a couple car payments per month. Of those two single income guys, one has a $1,200 child support payment that he don't know if he can make this month. And I'm not trying to lay on a sob story so everybody will feel sorry for us civilians because there are folks like myself that will be fine. However, the two single income guys I speak of have deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan and been loyal civil servants since the day they showed up.

All I ask is that when you speak of civilians keep in mind that they aren't all retired "living off the government nipple" as VFFTSGT so eloquently puts it. In fact...very few are, especially when you get away from the DoD. And I won't apologize for taking a GS job while collecting military retirement. In my current job I'm just as susceptible to deploying as an active duty member is and I show up for 12 hour shifts night or day as we speak. The only difference is I don't wear a uniform and I have to deal with the "fuck civilians" attitude such as VFF likes to demonstrate. That's ok...because when I've had enough I can walk right out the door, which is nice.
Maybe some people need a lesson in not living beyond their means and not living paycheck to paycheck.

It's not just military retirees that suck off the government nipple... Look at every government agency that has had recent controversy because they cannot get the job done (*cough* VA) or cannot behave on TDY's and need a "daddy" to come along (*cough* Secret Service). Or the agency abusing its power under the guise of safety or the agency wasting taxpayer dollars on lavish retreats. Or the agency targeting certain groups. Or the agency trying to prosecute people based on political motives. The list in endless...and all have civil service (many unionized) sucking off the government nipple. Many of these people in these agencies would be the first to complain about the abuses of power, but yet keep going back to work for them.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KrSjg4fB4t0/TzLlOfbe5tI/AAAAAAAAASQ/LI4jRjjNjcs/s1600/5954_0dc84a53f8297f1d9126d68c5626a7e5.jpg

BRUWIN
07-15-2013, 10:29 PM
It's not just military retirees that suck off the government nipple... Look at every government agency that has had recent controversy because they cannot get the job done (*cough* VA) or cannot behave on TDY's and need a "daddy" to come along (*cough* Secret Service). Or the agency abusing its power under the guise of safety or the agency wasting taxpayer dollars on lavish retreats.

Oh OK...good to know I'm not the only fat, freeloading, nipple sucking government employee on your radar.

VFFTSGT
07-15-2013, 10:35 PM
You guys also need to look inward. I experienced the active duty pay gravy train my last 10 years in. Comparing both...I would take my military pay and benefits any day.

I agree with you...military pay and benefits is out of this world. I want to put a boot in people who whine they don't make enough.

BRUWIN
07-15-2013, 10:47 PM
Maybe some people need a lesson in not living beyond their means and not living paycheck to paycheck.

[/IMG]

I don't think they are living paycheck to paycheck. They only bought the house last summer and those loans ain't approved for the paycheck to paycheck people like they were before the housing bubble burst. I think they make too much goddamned money for jr NCOs...that's what I think. It supposed to be about "service" and I kind of prided myself on that when I first came in. Now you guys make more than most civilians. When I was a young SSgt we were waaaaaay behind the civilian sector in pay scale. There is rarely I day I drive into work and the troops are pulling up next to me in some pretty nice rides. Many of them are single, getting full BAH with three roommates. That was against the rules in my day. You roomed with somebody and they took away half your damn BAH. We didn't get BAS during deployments, and we certainly weren't allowed to break our lease and store our HHG then collect full BAH while we were deployed either. That was fraud back in my day. You guys have it too damn easy and are always whining for more. TA was a fine example...you guys whined when that was taken now you have it back. When I was a young troop there was no full TA...you paid for your books and 25% of the class and it always came out to like $250 per class. And believe it or not you were still looked down on for not trying to get a CCAF even when some of that was coming out of your own pocket. There were no Shirt stipends, no weekly morale calls when deployed, none of that crap that costs the taxpayer millions now. In fact...if you got military pay down to what it should be you could eliminate having to cut troops that has essentially begged the need for hiring civilians. And make no mistake, if civilians were to have the walk out the door tomorrow you guys would be fucked. Don't kid yourself into thinking you wouldn't.

BRUWIN
07-15-2013, 10:49 PM
I agree with you...military pay and benefits is out of this world. I want to put a boot in people who whine they don't make enough.

OK...then my rant is done. No hard feelings...just spouting a different point of view.

technomage1
07-15-2013, 10:50 PM
To get back on topic, found out the fire department has furloughed their civilians, rearranged schedules, and cancelled leaves to cover shifts.

I couldn't believe an emergency service didn't get exempted, but they didn't.

Juggs
07-15-2013, 11:13 PM
To get back on topic, found out the fire department has furloughed their civilians, rearranged schedules, and cancelled leaves to cover shifts.

I couldn't believe an emergency service didn't get exempted, but they didn't.

The FD's at joint bases were fought to become exempt. Regular AFBs werent exempt. Screw safety.

technomage1
07-15-2013, 11:31 PM
The FD's at joint bases were fought to become exempt. Regular AFBs werent exempt. Screw safety.

They lost the fight, then, because I'm at a joint base.

Juggs
07-15-2013, 11:33 PM
They lost the fight, them, because I'm at a joint base.

Weird, the FF's i know said the joint bases got exempt, must be base to base. Oh well, regardless it compromises safety on the base.

technomage1
07-15-2013, 11:34 PM
Weird, the FF's i know said the joint bases got exempt, must be base to base. Oh well, regardless it compromises safety on the base.

Maybe it's just a rumor floating around? Regardless, you're right it does compromise safety.

VFFTSGT
07-16-2013, 12:18 AM
TA was a fine example...you guys whined when that was taken now you have it back. When I was a young troop there was no full TA...you paid for your books and 25% of the class and it always came out to like $250 per class.

Don't lump me in that one...lol I didn't whine. I shared the stories and made comments but wasn't whining. I thought it was crappy honestly that civilians were getting hosed and then TA got brought back. I think a lot that is going on right now is crappy.

My personal viewpoint was that it sucked TA was gone and I thought I would be paying for a few classes before I got out. But I am enjoying a few more dollars of TA before I get out.

And I paid part tuition for a few classes back in the day before 100%. Heck, I paid over $200 in fees this summer plus books because I am going to a real school not some "TA school."

I did add it up it and I have benefitted from TA to the tune of over $12,000.

VFFTSGT
07-16-2013, 12:21 AM
To get back on topic, found out the fire department has furloughed their civilians, rearranged schedules, and cancelled leaves to cover shifts.

I couldn't believe an emergency service didn't get exempted, but they didn't.

Wouldn't canceling leave be replacing civilian labor with military labor thereby violating that direction that was sent out?

SomeRandomGuy
07-16-2013, 12:30 AM
To get back on topic, found out the fire department has furloughed their civilians, rearranged schedules, and cancelled leaves to cover shifts.

I couldn't believe an emergency service didn't get exempted, but they didn't.

At WPAFB the entire fire department is civilian. They are not exempt from what I heard. The biggest complaint I have heard about it is that they will not be providing mutual aid to the surrounding towns. Its not a safety issue on base but some of the smaller towns here rely on the base for assistance and it could be an issue if a large fire broke out.

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/dayton/furloughs-begin-at-wright-patterson-afb#.UeSUfrHD_IU

From the article:


In the days leading up to the furlough, the command at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and the fire department tried to get an exemption for the firefighters.

Instead of eleven furlough days, 74 of the base's 86 firefighters will have to take five.

The other 12 employees, including fire inspectors, will have to take all eleven furlough days

VFFTSGT
07-16-2013, 12:43 AM
At WPAFB the entire fire department is civilian. They are not exempt from what I heard. The biggest complaint I have heard about it is that they will not be providing mutual aid to the surrounding towns. Its not a safety issue on base but some of the smaller towns here rely on the base for assistance and it could be an issue if a large fire broke out.

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/dayton/furloughs-begin-at-wright-patterson-afb#.UeSUfrHD_IU

From the article:

Something like 73 percent of the nation's firefighters are volunteers... Meaning they go without pay and many fire stations across the nation are not manned full-time. And the towns don't burn down.

technomage1
07-16-2013, 01:08 AM
Wouldn't canceling leave be replacing civilian labor with military labor thereby violating that direction that was sent out?

To my mind it does, but obviously the CC had a different interpretation. Not my butt, not my call.

Juggs
07-16-2013, 11:58 AM
Something like 73 percent of the nation's firefighters are volunteers... Meaning they go without pay and many fire stations across the nation are not manned full-time. And the towns don't burn down.

Many of those towns dont hold millions of gallons of highly combustible fuels, nor do they provide crash rescue for active runways.

Here where I live, when we get a structure call the base provides a ladder truck, or an engine depending on the assets already on scene. It used to be automatic, now it takes about 12 minutes from request to them rolling out the station, and about 20 minutes to being on scene. Great guys, when they get there, they're ready to work and are frustrated it has taken them so long because they;re listening to the whole situation unfold on radios.

akruse
07-16-2013, 12:38 PM
Something like 73 percent of the nation's firefighters are volunteers... Meaning they go without pay and many fire stations across the nation are not manned full-time. And the towns don't burn down.

I'm curious as to what percentage of fire call responses are actually volunteer only though.

Class5Kayaker
07-16-2013, 06:25 PM
Everyone should feel sorry for this retired major who is being forced to take a 20% pay cut. I wonder how he survives on only his civilian pay and his pension as a retired major? Life must be pretty rough. They even cancelled his lateral move to Cali because we are no longer paying the costs related to selling your hosue when you make a CIV PCS. Poor guy :drama

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/military/wpafb/civilian-defense-worker-starts-furlough

Here's a "better" article. Guy makes $2600 a month, losing $600 a month, and supports wife, two teenage daughters, and his mother. Looking to get a second job to make ends meet during the furlough.



Furloughs force many U.S. defense workers to scrape by
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57593853/furloughs-force-many-u.s-defense-workers-to-take-second-jobs/
(CBS News, 15 Jul 13) … Anna Werner

JOINT BASE LEWIS-MCCHORD, Wash. -- About one third of the U.S. Air Force has been grounded since April because of those across-the-board federal budget cuts.

But today, the Air Force told CBS News it's back at full strength -- including the precision flying team the "Thunderbirds" cleared for takeoff once again. The budget cuts are affecting the entire military including many civilian employees.

Mechanic Matt Thompson is one of those employees. He repairs military vehicles at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, near Tacoma.

For the next 11 weeks, he'll be forced to take Fridays off, losing 20 percent of his pay.

"I scrape from paycheck to paycheck as it is," said Thompson. "(Not having that 20 percent), that's huge. I still haven't figured out how I'm going to make that work."

Commanders at bases around the country were told to cut hours for the military's civilian employees, affecting thousands of workers who support troops and their families in jobs such as finance and maintenance.

Colonel Chuck Hodges is commander of Joint Base Lewis-McChord.

Hodges said it's frustrating to have to make these cuts.

"It's working with the employees. Knowing what they've done for us, over these past years and then having to put them on furlough, ask them to sacrifice even more. These aren't big money, government employees; most of my folks are making less than $40,000 dollars a year," said Hodges.

Matt Thompson's wife suffered a brain aneurysm that left her disabled.

His $2,600-a-month income supports her, the couple's two teenagers, and his mother. But it will drop $600 per month.

"My biggest concern is not being able to have someplace for my wife and my mom and my kids to be able to come," said Thompson.

He is also worried about losing his home. The thought of it brings him to tears, but he said he will make it work somehow.

Many base employees are actually military veterans, now working on the civil side.

Thompson spent eight years as a sergeant in the Army, and another nine years working on base.

"I understand that they need to make some cuts and they need to recover some money from somewhere, but the people that are only making a little bit. Getting their mission accomplished every day shouldn't be the ones losing money," said Thompson.

Thompson's now looking for a second job to pay what the military won't.

VFFTSGT
07-16-2013, 07:36 PM
Here's a "better" article. Guy makes $2600 a month, losing $600 a month, and supports wife, two teenage daughters, and his mother. Looking to get a second job to make ends meet during the furlough.

Much better example. This guy makes less than the retired Major does in his retirement pay alone.

jpeters
07-16-2013, 11:15 PM
Here's an interesting read I learned about after watching the local news tonight. So just remember, the 2 and a half million that could have been used to pay you is going to the children...and after all isn't that what everthing is about anyway?

http://www.kswo.com/story/22856740/lps-to-receive-another-stem-grant

jpeters
07-16-2013, 11:20 PM
Just read and saw on the local news where the DOD is giving the local school district a 2 and a half million dollar grant. So as soon as the moderator approves the link it should be on here for everyone to read.

http://www.kswo.com/story/22856740/lps-to-receive-another-stem-grant

jpeters
07-16-2013, 11:39 PM
Just edit your post and insert comment.

Thanks! The article is in now.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
07-17-2013, 01:18 AM
Yeah, I think I'm pretty much with Bruwin in this thread.

LFAWes
07-17-2013, 02:35 AM
You can be retired from the military. And not collect a check each month.

I just put in my retirement paperwork after 12 years of Active and 20 years as a Reservist. I wont get any money till I turn 60.

imported_chipotleboy
07-17-2013, 12:15 PM
To my mind it does, but obviously the CC had a different interpretation. Not my butt, not my call.

The workaround is to change the civilians' assignment right before the furlough day to something that doesn't need to be done. Then the military takes over the civilians' assigned duties. Problem solved.

Rusty Jones
07-17-2013, 12:17 PM
All I ask is that when you speak of civilians keep in mind that they aren't all retired "living off the government nipple" as VFFTSGT so eloquently puts it. In fact...very few are, especially when you get away from the DoD. And I won't apologize for taking a GS job while collecting military retirement. In my current job I'm just as susceptible to deploying as an active duty member is and I show up for 12 hour shifts night or day as we speak. The only difference is I don't wear a uniform and I have to deal with the "fuck civilians" attitude such as VFF likes to demonstrate. That's ok...because when I've had enough I can walk right out the door, which is nice.

Man, I think I have an awesome job with the federal government. Good thing I'm not a right winger. If I was, taking a job with such great benefits and job security would be detrimental to my conservative machismo.

BOSS302
07-17-2013, 12:33 PM
I agree with you...military pay and benefits is out of this world. I want to put a boot in people who whine they don't make enough.

Just for the sake of argument...how much of your military pay and benefits that you regard as "out of this world" do you return to the government each pay period?

Rusty Jones
07-17-2013, 12:43 PM
Just for the sake of argument...how much of your military pay and benefits that you regard as "out of this world" do you return to the government each pay period?

I don't think that's the complaint. I think the complaint is about military members who think they don't get paid enough.

I wouldn't have gotten my current job without at least a bachelor's degree, and I took a nearly 1/2 paycut to take this job; starting out as a GS-7. Am I bitching about my pay? Not at all. I'm just saying that people in the military have no room to bitch about theirs.

BOSS302
07-17-2013, 12:59 PM
I don't think that's the complaint. I think the complaint is about military members who think they don't get paid enough.

I wouldn't have gotten my current job without at least a bachelor's degree, and I took a nearly 1/2 paycut to take this job; starting out as a GS-7. Am I bitching about my pay? Not at all. I'm just saying that people in the military have no room to bitch about theirs.

I agree that military members have no room to complain about their pay and benefits. I have reminded many airmen that they could back to open-bay barracks with gang showers, or perhaps make it bit more luxurious with 4-to-a-room set-ups. I am very thankful for having the opportunity to live on the economy as opposed to on-base NCO quarters. The Air Force takes care of its people in many ways and it should not be forgotten.

Having said that, VFFTSGT did say that he agrees that "military pay and benefits are out of this world."


I agree with you...military pay and benefits is out of this world...

So again, for argument's sake and not to say he is right or wrong...VFF how much of your "out of this world" military pay and benefits do you return to the government each pay period? When you look over your LES and you make the determination that "This" or "That" is out of this world, do you go to Finance (when they are actually open), go to the Cashier's Cage, and present a check or lump sum cash payment to return that "out of this world" portion to the DoD?

If you do not, may I ask why?

EDIT: If the reason being is that the Air Force makes it absolutely impossible to do such a thing as returning money from your paycheck on a voluntary basis, have you written your Congressman about your concerns with your "out of this world" military pay and benefits, or have you brought it to the attention of your chain of command?

LFAWes
07-17-2013, 01:04 PM
Got an email today from an old coworker today. He is a Air Reserve Technician working the flightline at Barksdale. He has been asked to change he furlough day this week. So Active Duty can have their down day.

So is covering missing Active Duty with Furloughed Employees part of the rules?

coloringoutsidethelines
07-17-2013, 01:07 PM
I don't think they are living paycheck to paycheck. They only bought the house last summer and those loans ain't approved for the paycheck to paycheck people like they were before the housing bubble burst. I think they make too much goddamned money for jr NCOs...that's what I think. It supposed to be about "service" and I kind of prided myself on that when I first came in. Now you guys make more than most civilians. When I was a young SSgt we were waaaaaay behind the civilian sector in pay scale. There is rarely I day I drive into work and the troops are pulling up next to me in some pretty nice rides. Many of them are single, getting full BAH with three roommates. That was against the rules in my day. You roomed with somebody and they took away half your damn BAH. We didn't get BAS during deployments, and we certainly weren't allowed to break our lease and store our HHG then collect full BAH while we were deployed either. That was fraud back in my day. You guys have it too damn easy and are always whining for more. TA was a fine example...you guys whined when that was taken now you have it back. When I was a young troop there was no full TA...you paid for your books and 25% of the class and it always came out to like $250 per class. And believe it or not you were still looked down on for not trying to get a CCAF even when some of that was coming out of your own pocket. There were no Shirt stipends, no weekly morale calls when deployed, none of that crap that costs the taxpayer millions now. In fact...if you got military pay down to what it should be you could eliminate having to cut troops that has essentially begged the need for hiring civilians. And make no mistake, if civilians were to have the walk out the door tomorrow you guys would be fucked. Don't kid yourself into thinking you wouldn't.

Bruwin I uusally agree with you but not on this. I beleive AD is payed correctly. After deploying and working 16 hour days 7 days a week and then having to pull watch shifts to protect contractors who were making 300K and working 4 days a week I will never feel bad about the paycheck I pull in. I'm sure even at the levels it is now most civilians wouldn't take it if they knew they had to deploy.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
07-17-2013, 03:08 PM
Bruwin I uusally agree with you but not on this. I beleive AD is payed correctly. After deploying and working 16 hour days 7 days a week and then having to pull watch shifts to protect contractors who were making 300K and working 4 days a week I will never feel bad about the paycheck I pull in. I'm sure even at the levels it is now most civilians wouldn't take it if they knew they had to deploy.

I know civilians volunteering to deploy whenever the opportunity presents itself, so there are certainly exceptions out there in a population which includes many retired military members.


We need to stop treating them like second class citizens, especially when we turn right around to piss and moan about how bad we have it and how much we deserve like many did a few months ago with TA. That was such a sad display in the cases of those that whined, yet their only concern regarding a furlough was a potential increase to their own workload. Talk about some selfish people out there.

SomeRandomGuy
07-17-2013, 04:51 PM
We need to stop treating them like second class citizens, especially when we turn right around to piss and moan about how bad we have it and how much we deserve like many did a few months ago with TA. That was such a sad display in the cases of those that whined, yet their only concern regarding a furlough was a potential increase to their own workload. Talk about some selfish people out there.

You make a great point. It will be interesting to see what happens next January with military pay raises. I cannot wait for the first military person to complain to a furloughed civilian about how "he is only getting a 2% pay raise this year" (or whatever amount they decide in the NDAA)