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E4RUMOR
07-03-2013, 04:34 PM
http://youtu.be/HlriRAGurKE

So I thought this was probably one of the most compelling debates about the existence of God I have seen in a while.

If you actually have the time, watch it....

Pullinteeth
07-03-2013, 04:50 PM
http://youtu.be/HlriRAGurKE

So I thought this was probably one of the most compelling debates about the existence of God I have seen in a while.

If you actually have the time, watch it....

Except they are debating Christianity and atheism.... did you happen to notice in minute three she mispronounced extraordinary as extra-ordinary... Good points though. Joe is sure to hate it though because the athiest is a conservative instead of a liberal hippie....

RobotChicken
07-05-2013, 04:34 AM
"So why are 'Atheist' so negative???"

Pullinteeth
09-13-2013, 06:07 PM
How can an Atheist believe in ghosts? Wouldn't one have to believe in an afterlife of some sort to believe in ghosts?

Rusty Jones
09-13-2013, 06:24 PM
How can an Atheist believe in ghosts? Wouldn't one have to believe in an afterlife of some sort to believe in ghosts?

I don't know any atheists who claim to believe in ghosts; but I know quite a few Christians who do... when the doctrines of the very churches they follow that that who are saved (Protestant) or die in a state of grace (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox) will either go to heaven or their souls will lie dormant until Judgement Day (7th Day Adventists), and that the unsaved or those who die in a state of mortal sin will either go to hell or that their souls will be annihilated (Jehovah's Witnesses, several other denominations).

I don't know of a single Christian denomination that believes in "ghosts." Yet, there are plenty of Christians who do believe in them.

Pullinteeth
09-13-2013, 07:05 PM
I don't know any atheists who claim to believe in ghosts; but I know quite a few Christians who do...

I do...that's why I asked. Seems a bit odd to me...but WTF do I know?

wildman
09-13-2013, 07:25 PM
Umm gee I wonder if ya have heard about Christians believing in the Holy Ghost? In response to Rusty Jones!

Always,
Wildman

Rusty Jones
09-13-2013, 09:53 PM
Umm gee I wonder if ya have heard about Christians believing in the Holy Ghost? In response to Rusty Jones!

Always,
Wildman

Are you trying to play a semantics game, or are you stupid? Or both?

Rusty Jones
09-13-2013, 10:00 PM
From a physics standpoint...matter vs. energy...what is the difference between a live person and dead one?

i.e....the instant that a person dies, what changes about them? When that "life energy" leaves their body...where does it go?

One body has functioning organs and the other doesn't.

Rusty Jones
09-13-2013, 10:05 PM
Brilliant...so there is an energy force behind that right?

Not in the sense that you're trying to get at.

Rusty Jones
09-13-2013, 10:19 PM
It has to come from somewhere...and when it's gone, it has to go somewhere... :-)

What is this "it" that we're talking about again? In the end, I'm not a biologist. Cornering ME in a debate really won't do anything for your cause.

wildman
09-14-2013, 02:14 AM
Are you trying to play a semantics game, or are you stupid? Or both?

It is a legitimate question to witch Rusty Jones has provided the answer for all of us to see. Now who is the stupid one? It was not I who made the statement about denominations not believing in ghosts.


I don't know of a single Christian denomination that believes in "ghosts."

Always,
Wildman

Absinthe Anecdote
09-14-2013, 02:19 AM
It has to come from somewhere...and when it's gone, it has to go somewhere... :-)

What makes you think the chemical energy in our bodies has anything to do with a ghost or a soul?

When a Duracell battery stops producing electricity do you suspect an invisible version of the battery sprouts invisible wings and flies off to heaven? Of course you don't.

The chemical energy in your body is converted into heat energy and it radiates out from your body and dissipates into the surrounding environment the whole time you are alive.

While the statement is true that the energy isn't destroyed, it is just converted from one form, chemical, into another, heat.

When you die and this process stops, what energy is left in your body in the form of unused molecules becomes stored energy because the cells in your body are no longer creating chemical reactions. The process of decomposition will begin to break down what is left of your body turning some of it into heat energy and the rest of the molecules bind to form new compounds (think fertilizer).

Bunch
09-14-2013, 07:27 AM
http://youtu.be/HlriRAGurKE

So I thought this was probably one of the most compelling debates about the existence of God I have seen in a while.

If you actually have the time, watch it....

Wow...thanks for sharing!!

First comment... An atheist and a christian having a well mannered debate?!! Very refreshing...

Second... I have to give big thumbs ups to Dinesh D' Souza because all his arguements were right on point in regards to how we can integrate intelligent design to our understanding of the world.

Third, really akward to see as a progressive christian, two conservatives argue Christianity and Atheism.

My big take...Dinesh clearly made the better points in this particular debate. The case that he made about why religion particularly christianity can present serious arguements to many of our existential questions was right on point. I saw Michael as simply overmatch in this debate specially when he brought out mormonism to make his case about "religion is nonsense" which is really the cheap shot arguement many atheist fall back to when they feel outmatched in an arguement.

Finally, the point Michael was trying to make about Atheism just been an idea and nothing else is clearly BS and I was glad to see Dinesh call him out on it because atheists for the last two decades are trying to imprint their "non belief" to many areas of our lives, Dinesh rebuttal to that arguement was great!.

MikeKerriii
09-17-2014, 05:41 PM
"So why are 'Atheist' so negative???"
Constanly being harrased by intolrant fools tend to casue that realtion?

See: the Air force endorsement of religous bigotry as a great and current exmple

Or ask an aiethist how many times he has been told he can't "really be an aithiest', ort try to have atheist put on your dog tags

sandsjames
09-17-2014, 05:43 PM
Constanly being harrased by intolrant fools tend to casue that realtion?

See: the Air force endorsement of religous bigotry as a great and current exmple

Or ask an aiethist how many times he has been told he can't "really be an aithiest', ort try to have atheist put on your dog tags

Nice...drudge up a 1 year old thread just to take a shot at religion. You're a special one.

I'm quickly coming to the conclussion that you are a former user on this site that is here to troll...

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
09-26-2014, 04:43 PM
Constanly being harrased by intolrant fools tend to casue that realtion?

See: the Air force endorsement of religous bigotry as a great and current exmple

Or ask an aiethist how many times he has been told he can't "really be an aithiest', ort try to have atheist put on your dog tags

Not to make you feel bad, but you've responded to a guy that passed away from Cancer last year.

ChiefAD
09-28-2014, 04:30 AM
I was raised Catholic and this video that was sent to me some months ago made me do some research and I was stunned by some of the relevations. I never knew so many deities had a birth of December 25th and how it relates to the constellations. I would start at the 5 minute mark if you decide to see this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VRnXPDuXs

ChiefAD
09-28-2014, 04:32 AM
I was raised Catholic and this video that was sent to me some months ago made me do some research and I was stunned by some of the relevations. I never knew so many deities had a birth of December 25th and how it relates to the constellations. I would start at the 5 minute mark if you decide to see this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VRnXPDuXs

The first part has a voice over of George Carlin's skit on religion and I must say, he had me hysterical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE <--That is the whole video.

Rusty Jones
05-14-2015, 07:26 PM
Question I've been pondering: if Satan is punishing the unsaved, isn't a he a good guy?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-14-2015, 08:25 PM
Question I've been pondering: if Satan is punishing the unsaved, isn't a he a good guy?

Well, judging from how Satan treats people on South Park, he's not really that bad at all. Maybe he's just misunderstood by Christians?

sandsjames
05-14-2015, 08:50 PM
Question I've been pondering: if Satan is punishing the unsaved, isn't a he a good guy?

Satan isn't punishing the unsaved.

Rusty Jones
05-15-2015, 11:40 AM
Satan isn't punishing the unsaved.

Explain that one to me. Satan has a whole realm (i.e., Hell), where he sees to it that those who are sent there are tortured for eternity. How is Satan, then, not punishing the unsaved?

Looks to me like God and Satan are on the same team.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 12:01 PM
Explain that one to me. Satan has a whole realm (i.e., Hell), where he sees to it that those who are sent there are tortured for eternity. How is Satan, then, not punishing the unsaved?

Looks to me like God and Satan are on the same team.

Hell is the "destination" after the judgment. Satan still has "access" to God and isn't currently ruling Hell because there is no Hell yet (assuming we look at time as a linear thing, but that's an entirely different discussion). Just as we are allowed to make choices, Satan is also allowed to do what he does. After the judgment he will also face the eternal torture/suffering as will everyone else who isn't saved.

Rusty Jones
05-15-2015, 12:04 PM
Hell is the "destination" after the judgment. Satan still has "access" to God and isn't currently ruling Hell because there is no Hell yet (assuming we look at time as a linear thing, but that's an entirely different discussion). Just as we are allowed to make choices, Satan is also allowed to do what he does. After the judgment he will also face the eternal torture/suffering as will everyone else who isn't saved.

Woah, are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 12:09 PM
Woah, are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

Nope...why?

I've said many times that I'm non-denominational. To be a 7th day I'd have to believe that baptism is a must.

Rusty Jones
05-15-2015, 12:17 PM
Nope...why?

I've said many times that I'm non-denominational. To be a 7th day I'd have to believe that baptism is a must.

Okay, but here's the thing... you and I both know that no two "non-denominational" churches are the same. They're all GOING to have beliefs and doctrines that are specific to certain denominations, more often than not, the denomination that the pastor broke away from when he or she founded that church. My wife goes to a non-denomination church. Within two visits to that church, I could tell right away that this church wasn't far removed from Southern Baptism. Your "non-denominational" church, if they teach what you just said here, sounds like it's not far removed from Seventh Day Adventism. Either that, or you may have been before you started going to your current church.

That people don't go to heaven or hell until Christ's second coming when he renders judgment is a Seventh Day Adventist belief. They invented that. Though, it's not impossible that some "non-denominational" churches also believe that.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 12:24 PM
Okay, but here's the thing... you and I both know that no two "non-denominational" churches are the same. They're all GOING to have beliefs and doctrines that are specific to certain denominations, more often than not, the denomination that the pastor broke away from when he or she founded that church. My wife goes to a non-denomination church. Within two visits to that church, I could tell right away that this church wasn't far removed from Southern Baptism. Your "non-denominational" church, if they teach what you just said here, sounds like it's not far removed from Seventh Day Adventism. Either that, or you may have been before you started going to your current church.

That people don't go to heaven or hell until Christ's second coming when he renders judgment is a Seventh Day Adventist belief. They invented that. Though, it's not impossible that some "non-denominational" churches also believe that.

For one, I don't go to church, so I don't have a "non-denominational church". I am non-denominational. I don't believe that any man, or church, can teach me my beliefs.

I also don't believe, or care, whether Saturday or Sunday is the Sabbath. I don't believe that I have to "witness" to people, other than by the way I live my life. I don't care about the entire "eat healthy, your body is your temple" thing. So that's 3 of the big tenets of 7th day that already take me far away from that denomination. Add in the baptism by water and that's 4.

Again, I don't go to church and haven't in over 20 years. I don't watch people on TV and I don't "attend" online.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 12:31 PM
Explain that one to me. Satan has a whole realm (i.e., Hell), where he sees to it that those who are sent there are tortured for eternity. How is Satan, then, not punishing the unsaved?

Looks to me like God and Satan are on the same team.

Satan even visits God right along with the other Angels. Plus, they make gentlemanly bets with each other like old pals.



Job 1 New International Version (NIV)

Prologue
1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

4 His sons used to hold feasts in their homes on their birthdays, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.

6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

13 One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

17 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.[c]
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
may the name of the Lord be praised.”
22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.



This story is not much different than the 1980s movie, Trading Places, when the Duke Brothers destroy Dan Akroyd's life over a $1 bet.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 12:57 PM
For one, I don't go to church, so I don't have a "non-denominational church". I am non-denominational. I don't believe that any man, or church, can teach me my beliefs.

I also don't believe, or care, whether Saturday or Sunday is the Sabbath. I don't believe that I have to "witness" to people, other than by the way I live my life. I don't care about the entire "eat healthy, your body is your temple" thing. So that's 3 of the big tenets of 7th day that already take me far away from that denomination. Add in the baptism by water and that's 4.

Again, I don't go to church and haven't in over 20 years. I don't watch people on TV and I don't "attend" online.

So you have in essence invented your own religion. One that doesn't require much effort on your part either.

If you think we atheists are being mean to you, I would really like to hear you talk to an average pastor about your approach to Christianity.

They'd have you in tears, or stomping off in an angry huff in a matter of minutes.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 01:15 PM
So you have in essence invented your own religion. One that doesn't require much effort on your part either.Nope, haven't invented anything. Each individual Church has their own religion. I am a Christian.



If you think we atheists are being mean to you, I would really like to hear you talk to an average pastor about your approach to Christianity. That's why I don't go to Church. Being told how to believe by a man is not my idea of being a Christian.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 01:25 PM
Nope, haven't invented anything.

You are certainly doing your own thing. So you are following a religious doctrine of your own making.


Each individual Church has their own religion.

No, each individual church does not have its own religion. I'll chalk that one up to your lack of prowess with expressing yourself in written form.


I am a Christian.

One that sounds like he is hell bound according to what I learned from my studies with the Christian faith.



That's why I don't go to Church. Being told how to believe by a man is not my idea of being a Christian.

So who tell's you how and what to believe? That statement almost sounds like you are claiming a non-human is talking to you.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 02:00 PM
You are certainly doing your own thing. So you are following a religious doctrine of your own making. Not of my own making. Of my own interpretations and beliefs. And the "doctrine" I follow is pretty simple:

Believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins.

Treat others the way I want to be treated.

Show my belief in God through my actions.

I don't know if that "doctrine" is unusual or not. I think it's pretty common amongst the Christian faith.

Do you love your family? Do you need someone to tell you the best way to love an honor them, or do you pretty much know how to do it on your own?




No, each individual church does not have its own religion. I'll chalk that one up to your lack of prowess with expressing yourself in written form. Ok, they have their individual tenets.




One that sounds like he is hell bound according to what I learned from my studies with the Christian faith. And this is the kind of statement that usually comes from Christians who believe that their way is the only way. I'm not sure what "studies" you speak of, but I don't think they exclude anything I'm saying.





So who tell's you how and what to believe? That statement almost sounds like you are claiming a non-human is talking to you.Well, God is non-human. Does he "talk" to me? No. I don't hear voices or anything. But I know what things make me feel right.

Again, nobody has to tell you how to love and honor your family. You just know. Doesn't mean it's the right way for everyone, but it's right for you. I'd never tell you that you are doing it wrong just because I do it differently.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 02:03 PM
Okay, but here's the thing... you and I both know that no two "non-denominational" churches are the same. They're all GOING to have beliefs and doctrines that are specific to certain denominations, more often than not, the denomination that the pastor broke away from when he or she founded that church. My wife goes to a non-denomination church. Within two visits to that church, I could tell right away that this church wasn't far removed from Southern Baptism. Your "non-denominational" church, if they teach what you just said here, sounds like it's not far removed from Seventh Day Adventism. Either that, or you may have been before you started going to your current church.

That people don't go to heaven or hell until Christ's second coming when he renders judgment is a Seventh Day Adventist belief. They invented that. Though, it's not impossible that some "non-denominational" churches also believe that.

We have been talking to a guy who knows a only tiny amount about Christianity. He has clearly demonstrated that he doesn't understand the even the basic divisions of Christianity.

He tried arguing that his particular view of Christianity didn't stem from the protestant reformation once.

Now he has basicly admitted that he is just spouting off random shit about Christianity that he dreamed up on his own.

Probably after some pastor pissed him off twenty years ago, and he went back to his sofa to sit and pout.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 02:34 PM
Not of my own making. Of my own interpretations and beliefs. And the "doctrine" I follow is pretty simple:

Believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins.

Treat others the way I want to be treated.

Show my belief in God through my actions.

I don't know if that "doctrine" is unusual or not. I think it's pretty common amongst the Christian faith.

Do you love your family? Do you need someone to tell you the best way to love an honor them, or do you pretty much know how to do it on your own?



Ok, they have their individual tenets.



And this is the kind of statement that usually comes from Christians who believe that their way is the only way. I'm not sure what "studies" you speak of, but I don't think they exclude anything I'm saying.




Well, God is non-human. Does he "talk" to me? No. I don't hear voices or anything. But I know what things make me feel right.

Again, nobody has to tell you how to love and honor your family. You just know. Doesn't mean it's the right way for everyone, but it's right for you. I'd never tell you that you are doing it wrong just because I do it differently.

The idea that Jesus is the son of God and died for your sins, comes from other men. It comes from the Christian faith that was created, established as an organized religion and then promulgated by generations of men over the course of 2015 years.

Saying that you don't need other men to tell you what to believe about Christianity is absurd.

If you are pointing to your innate feeling of responsiblilty toward children and family as being the voice of God, that's fine with me.

But I fail to see why you wrap yourself in the banner of Christainity when you reject the majority of what is in the bible, and understand so little about the Christain faith.

You have latched onto John 3:16 like Christianity starts and ends there, it doesn't.

And no, what you are doing isn't unusual, plenty of people do what you do.

Actually, the overwhelming majority of Christians pay little attention to what scripture says. The primary reason any religion survives is because of people like you.

You don't really believe all that nonsense in the bible, you fucking ignore it on a daily basis, but for some reason you insist on being called a Christian.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 02:51 PM
The idea that Jesus is the son of God and died for your sins, comes from other men. It comes from the Christian faith that was created, established as an organized religion and then promulgated by generations of men over the course of 2015 years.

Saying that you don't need other men to tell you what to believe about Christianity is absurd.

If you are pointing to your innate feeling of responsiblilty toward children and family as being the voice of God, that's fine with me.

But I fail to see why you wrap yourself in the banner of Christainity when you reject the majority of what is in the bible, and understand so little about the Christain faith.

You have latched onto John 3:16 like Christianity starts and ends there, it doesn't.

And no, what you are doing isn't unusual, plenty of people do what you do.

Actually, the overwhelming majority of Christians pay little attention to what scripture says. The primary reason any religion survives is because of people like you.

You don't really believe all that nonsense in the bible, you fucking ignore it on a daily basis, but for some reason you insist on being called a Christian.

What is your goal here? Do you have some sort of end game? You ask questions, I answer, and you criticize.

I don't reject anything in the bible. None of it.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 03:38 PM
What is your goal here? Do you have some sort of end game? You ask questions, I answer, and you criticize.

I don't reject anything in the bible. None of it.

My goal is to point out that you don't know what you are talking about when you engage in conversations about Christianity.

Actually, you do most of heavy lifting when it comes to accomplishing that task with your own statements.


I don't reject anything in the bible. None of it.

Like this whopper of a contradiction. We only have to go back one page to see that this statement isn't really true.

Please go read your bible and spend some time studying about the history of Christianity, and at least the history of Western Civilization.

If you do that, you'll be able to talk with Rusty and I without saying such preposterous things.

Bos Mutus
05-15-2015, 03:39 PM
But I fail to see why you wrap yourself in the banner of Christainity when you reject the majority of what is in the bible, and understand so little about the Christain faith.

You have latched onto John 3:16 like Christianity starts and ends there, it doesn't.



Back when I was a Christian my favorite verse was James 1:27

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 03:59 PM
Back when I was a Christian my favorite verse was James 1:27

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

That whole passage is about listening versus doing in regards to the word of God.

I think we need to look at it beginning from at least James 1:22 to grasp the full weight of that verse.


James 1:22-27 New International Version

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.



Actually a very beautiful thought, but one that is lost on blind adherents of "John 3:16 only."

Those who claim that just to believe is enough to keep them safe, like having your hand on "the base" in a game of tag.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 03:59 PM
My goal is to point out that you don't know what you are talking about when you engage in conversations about Christianity. No, that's the means you are using...but what's the goal?


Actually, you do most of heavy lifting when it comes to accomplishing that task with your own statements.



Like this whopper of a contradiction. We only have to go back one page to see that this statement isn't really true.

Please go read your bible and spend some time studying about the history of Christianity, and at least the history of Western Civilization.

If you do that, you'll be able to talk with Rusty and I without saying such preposterous things.Rejecting it and determining it not to be the most important are two entirely different things.

The history of Christianity isn't important to me. Christianity is important to me.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 04:14 PM
No, that's the means you are using...but what's the goal?

Rejecting it and determining it not to be the most important are two entirely different things.

The history of Christianity isn't important to me. Christianity is important to me.

LOL!

SJ,

You are discussing this on the level of a garkhal or a Robot Chicken. You really might as well start festooning your posts on religion with a shit-load of emoticons.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 04:58 PM
LOL!

SJ,

You are discussing this on the level of a garkhal or a Robot Chicken. You really might as well start festooning your posts on religion with a shit-load of emoticons.

Ok. I will help you reach your end game so you can win:

I am a poor excuse for a Christian. I do not actively take the role that I am expected to by the leaders of the Church. I have done only a small to moderate amount of time researching the history behind my religion and much more is expected of me.

I cannot possibly have a good relationship with God if I don't spend more time getting other people's thoughts on the subject. I cannot determine, for myself, what the right path is for me. I must follow what the Church tells me is right or I will burn in hell for eternity.

Thank you, AA, for setting me on the right path. You have inspired me. You have changed my thoughts and belief system. I now realize the error of my ways because you, a non-Christian, have pointed out to me to how to be a better Christian. I am eternally grateful for your time and effort.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-15-2015, 05:21 PM
Reminds of me a funny picture I saw in Hustler magazine in the late 80s. It showed a guy who looked like Jesus writing in a book, and while he's writing he says to another guy standing next to him, "one day somebody's going to believe this bullshit I'm writing."

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 06:02 PM
Ok. I will help you reach your end game so you can win:

I am a poor excuse for a Christian. I do not actively take the role that I am expected to by the leaders of the Church. I have done only a small to moderate amount of time researching the history behind my religion and much more is expected of me.

I cannot possibly have a good relationship with God if I don't spend more time getting other people's thoughts on the subject. I cannot determine, for myself, what the right path is for me. I must follow what the Church tells me is right or I will burn in hell for eternity.

Thank you, AA, for setting me on the right path. You have inspired me. You have changed my thoughts and belief system. I now realize the error of my ways because you, a non-Christian, have pointed out to me to how to be a better Christian. I am eternally grateful for your time and effort.

Your heated reaction to me, really makes me wonder just how pissed off you got some 20 years ago when a preacher stepped on your toes about your progress as a Christian.

I'm guessing you got pretty damned angry since it has been 20 years since you have stepped into a church.

You seem resentful of anyone who suggests that you spend a little more time learning about your religion.

I'm sure you don't realize how obvious it is that you haven't spent any time reading the bible or learning about your religion.

If you had, you wouldn't be saying such nonsensical things like not understanding what the Protestant division of Christianity is, or expressing fragmented views on the nature of Satan and what happens between death and judgement day.

You are all over the fucking map when it comes to that stuff, and you need to avoid talking about it until you understand it more.

It is painfully obvious that you don't understand the bible, or Christianity.

The vast majority of Christians are just like you. You have heard a bible verse hear and there, maybe you have leafed through a bible once or twice.

But you haven't read the bible, and you don't take the concept of being a Christian that seriously. Especially in your daily life.

However, you are quick to identify yourself as a Christian, and you are quick to attempt a defense of it with limited knowledge.

You should just quit lying and call yourself, "spiritual, but not religious" or some other hogwash label.

You think that your response was sarcastic and maybe that it would guilt me into shutting up. But the truth is that you actually are a phony Christian, and both you and I know it.

And if that God of yours is real, he sure as fuck knows what the score is.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 06:09 PM
Your heated reaction to me, really makes me wonder just how pissed off you got some 20 years ago when a preacher stepped on your toes about your progress as a Christian.

I'm guessing you got pretty damned angry since it has been 20 years since you have stepped into a church.

You seem resentful of anyone who suggests that you spend a little more time learning about your religion.

I'm sure you don't realize how obvious it is that you haven't spent any time reading the bible or learning about your religion.

If you had, you wouldn't be saying such nonsensical things like not understanding what the Protestant division of Christianity is, or expressing fragmented views on the nature of Satan and what happens between death and judgement day.

You are all over the fucking map when it comes to that stuff, and you need to avoid talking about it until you understand it more.

It is painfully obvious that you don't understand the bible, or Christianity.

The vast majority of Christians are just like you. You have heard a bible verse hear and there, maybe you have leafed through a bible once or twice.

But you haven't read the bible, and you don't take the concept of being a Christian that seriously. Especially in your daily life.

However, you are quick to identify yourself as a Christian, and you are quick to attempt a defense of it with limited knowledge.

You should just quit lying and call yourself, "spiritual, but not religious" or some other hogwash label.

You think that your response was sarcastic and maybe that it would guilt me into shutting up. But the truth is that you actually are a phony Christian, and both you and I know it.

And if that God of yours is real, he sure as fuck knows what the score is.I see. Unless someone practices religion as you deem necessary then they are doing it wrong. And I agree. You are right. You win.


I have no anger or resentment. The difference between you and I is that I'm no longer angry about what happened over 20 years ago while you still are. Why do you still carry that anger? You can get rid of that anger quite easily. Give yourself to Jesus and realize that what all those other people did to you that turned you away from him are irrelevant. You'll feel much better and won't have to continue carrying the grudge.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-15-2015, 06:12 PM
You should just quit lying and call yourself, "spiritual, but not religious" or some other hogwash label.

So, if you don't subscribe to one of the top, "pre-approved," man made written versions of God, then your beliefs are "hogwash?" Or are you implying that if you don't believe in the Christian God, as communicated in the bible, then your beliefs are "hogwash?"

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 06:15 PM
And if that God of yours is real, he sure as fuck knows what the score is.Indeed he does. And that's between Him and I.

Why won't you answer the question as to why you care? Do you think you're accomplishing anything by acting like a child? You hate people who don't fit your ideal of what a Christian should be, we get it.

What's funny is that you are telling me the same thing that God tells us in the Old Testament. None of us are good enough for His Kingdom. We are all hypocrites. We aren't worthy of that glory. Then he gave us Jesus, to give us a chance.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 06:26 PM
So, if you don't subscribe to one of the top, "pre-approved," man made written versions of God, then your beliefs are "hogwash?" Or are you implying that if you don't believe in the Christian God, as communicated in the bible, then your beliefs are "hogwash?"

Pretty much, at least from my standpoint. Spiritual, but not religious sounds like a hogwash label to me.

New age crystal worship sounds like hog wash, as does Scientology.

Some dude who claims to have a personal relationship with god, sounds like hogwash at best, but it is probably closer to a mixture of bullshit and hogwash.

However, I'm a just heathen atheist who spent about half his life looking for god, reading the bible and praying, so what do I know?

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 06:29 PM
Some dude who claims to have a personal relationship with god, sounds like hogwash at best, but it is probably closer to a mixture of bullshit and hogwash.

However, I'm a just heathen atheist who spent about half his life looking for god, reading the bible and praying, so what do I know?You don't have to be jealous because I've got something you haven't. You can still have it. You're just looking in the wrong places. You won't find it in a book. You won't find it when you're looking for reasons not to.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2015, 07:51 PM
You don't have to be jealous because I've got something you haven't. You can still have it. You're just looking in the wrong places. You won't find it in a book. You won't find it when you're looking for reasons not to.

Stick to talking about Christianity in these fluffy abstract terms like you did just now and you'll be safe.

When you start talking about the book that is the foundation of your faith, is when you risk sounding like an idiot.

Because it is very obvious that you haven't really read it, or even have much regard for it.

sandsjames
05-15-2015, 07:59 PM
Stick to talking about Christianity in these fluffy abstract terms like you did just now and you'll be safe.

When you start talking about the book that is the foundation of your faith, is when you risk sounding like an idiot.

Because it is very obvious that you haven't really read it, or even have much regard for it.

I know many people who can tell me what the TO says, word for word, about fixing a generator. I know only a few who are better working on them.

And you still avoid the question. Over and over you avoid the question I've asked you several times in this thread. Do you avoid it because you have no answer or do you avoid it because you're embarrassed about your answer?

And what will I be "safe" from? Your ridicule? You think pretty highly of yourself, don't you?

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2015, 01:42 AM
I know many people who can tell me what the TO says, word for word, about fixing a generator. I know only a few who are better working on them.

There you go, equate your talk of religion to fixing generators. I'm sure you can hold your own in the type of religious discussion that involves removing one's self from being accountable for the truth.




And you still avoid the question. Over and over you avoid the question I've asked you several times in this thread. Do you avoid it because you have no answer or do you avoid it because you're embarrassed about your answer?

And what will I be "safe" from? Your ridicule? You think pretty highly of yourself, don't you? What question? My purpose discussing this? I already answered that up-thread.

You want more on why I talk about religion in here? I'm proselytizing on the behalf of Atheism, of course.

Do you think I would deny that? No secret, I want to convert you from believing in God.

Why else would I talk about such a thing in frank and open terms?

Why the hell do you talk religion in here?

sandsjames
05-16-2015, 11:22 AM
There you go, equate your talk of religion to fixing generators. I'm sure you can hold your own in the type of religious discussion that involves removing one's self from being accountable for the truth. I think you're confused on who's not being accountable.


Do you think I would deny that? No secret, I want to convert you from believing in God. Do you think that has any possibility of working? And what would you gain? Who's life would improve if I became an Atheist? Do you think I'd change how I live my life? It sounds to me like it's just an ego thing for you...like it's a notch on your bible.


Why else would I talk about such a thing in frank and open terms? I think you do it because you're looking for a reason to believe again. I'm the wrong guy to talk to about that. I wish I wasn't, but I am.


Why the hell do you talk religion in here?Because I like to hear other views. If my beliefs are "challenged" then I'm able to strengthen my faith. So, just to make it clear...you trying to "convert" me, as you say, actually has exactly the opposite effect.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-19-2015, 12:11 PM
I think you're confused on who's not being accountable.

Do you think that has any possibility of working? And what would you gain? Who's life would improve if I became an Atheist? Do you think I'd change how I live my life? It sounds to me like it's just an ego thing for you...like it's a notch on your bible.

I think you do it because you're looking for a reason to believe again. I'm the wrong guy to talk to about that. I wish I wasn't, but I am.

Because I like to hear other views. If my beliefs are "challenged" then I'm able to strengthen my faith. So, just to make it clear...you trying to "convert" me, as you say, actually has exactly the opposite effect.

Why don't you just be honest? You are also prothelyzing your view of the universe when you post on this subject.

Why are you trying to paint prothelyzing as something bad or shameful?

Are you ashamed of your beliefs?

After all, your core beliefs on the nature of the universe comes from a book of obvious fiction. How do you account for that?

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 12:16 PM
After all, your core beliefs on the nature of the universe comes from a book of obvious fiction. How do you account for that?Yes..."obvious" fiction. That's the kind of statement that makes Atheists sound so pretentious. You can be even more convincing if you call it a "fairy tale". You're swayin' me man. You're getting close. Keep up the good work.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-19-2015, 12:30 PM
Yes..."obvious" fiction. That's the kind of statement that makes Atheists sound so pretentious. You can be even more convincing if you call it a "fairy tale". You're swayin' me man. You're getting close. Keep up the good work.

So, Noah's Ark isn't fiction, how about the parting of the Red Sea?

You think those things really happened as described in the bible?

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 12:46 PM
So, Noah's Ark isn't fiction, how about the parting of the Red Sea?

You think those things really happened as described in the bible?

Absolutely.

But if you tell me how it's impossible then I will probably say "you know what, you're right" and turn away from my belief that a God who can create EVERYTHING can make those two things you mentioned possible.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-19-2015, 12:52 PM
Absolutely.

But if you tell me how it's impossible then I will probably say "you know what, you're right" and turn away from my belief that a God who can create EVERYTHING can make those two things you mentioned possible.

Let's try something else. What is your favorite story from the Old Testament?

Mine is Genesis 32:22-31

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 01:12 PM
Let's try something else. What is your favorite story from the Old Testament?

Mine is Genesis 32:22-31

Genesis 13...

I'm not really surprised by yours. And I don't really believe it's your favorite, I believe you're using it to try to make a point.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-19-2015, 01:41 PM
Genesis 13...

I'm not really surprised by yours. And I don't really believe it's your favorite, I believe you're using it to try to make a point.

I try to make a point in everything I say in here. Why would you find that surprising?

Anyway, you like the story of Abraham and Lot?

It is a pretty good story, it is one that stands out as being somewhat descriptive in geographic references and from a literary stand point, the English version of it in the New International Version, even sets a tone for the story despite its many translations and re-writes.

Which translation of the bible do you read? Because I'll switch to your translation of the bible to discuss Abraham and Lot with you.

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 01:55 PM
I try to make a point in everything I say in here. Why would you find that surprising?

Anyway, you like the story of Abraham and Lot?

It is a pretty good story, it is one that stands out as being somewhat descriptive in geographic references and from a literary stand point, the English version of it in the New International Version, even sets a tone for the story despite its many translations and re-writes.

Which translation of the bible do you read? Because I'll switch to your translation of the bible to discuss Abraham and Lot with you.

I reference different versions. I like to compare when I'm looking things up. American, International, King James.

I don't like Genesis 13 based on the geographic references. It's about a guy not being selfish, realizing how lucky he is to have what he has and not wanting to cause conflict with someone else.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-19-2015, 02:13 PM
I reference different versions. I like to compare when I'm looking things up. American, International, King James.

I don't like Genesis 13 based on the geographic references. It's about a guy not being selfish, realizing how lucky he is to have what he has and not wanting to cause conflict with someone else.

Really? What about God showing extreme favor to Abraham and sending Lot to the meat grinder that will become Sodom?


New International Version
14 The Lord said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Look around from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.”

And it wasn't about Abraham not being selfish either. If Abraham and Lot had stayed together, they would have pissed off the surrounding tribes too.

Remember, their flocks were too great together and that there were not enough resources to support them.

They had to split up, to prevent conflict with not only each other, but the local tribes, remember?



Genesis 13 New International Version (NIV)

Abram and Lot Separate
13 So Abram went up from Egypt to the Negev, with his wife and everything he had, and Lot went with him. 2 Abram had become very wealthy in livestock and in silver and gold.

3 From the Negev he went from place to place until he came to Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier 4 and where he had first built an altar. There Abram called on the name of the Lord.

5 Now Lot, who was moving about with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents. 6 But the land could not support them while they stayed together, for their possessions were so great that they were not able to stay together. 7 And quarreling arose between Abram’s herders and Lot’s. The Canaanites and Perizzites were also living in the land at that time.

8 So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herders and mine, for we are close relatives. 9 Is not the whole land before you? Let’s part company. If you go to the left, I’ll go to the right; if you go to the right, I’ll go to the left.”

10 Lot looked around and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan toward Zoar was well watered, like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt. (This was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: 12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the people of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the Lord.

14 The Lord said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Look around from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.”

18 So Abram went to live near the great trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he pitched his tents. There he built an altar to the Lord.

Footnotes:

Genesis 13:15 Or seed; also in verse 16
New International Version (NIV)
Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 02:59 PM
Really? What about God showing extreme favor to Abraham and sending Lot to the meat grinder that will become Sodom? This story is about somebody being content with what they have and not getting jealous because someone else has something better. This is a guy making $60k a year being able to call himself successful.




And it wasn't about Abraham not being selfish either. If Abraham and Lot had stayed together, they would have pissed off the surrounding tribes too. It was about Abraham saying "You take what you want, I'll take what's left." If you get something else from the story than that's great, but that's not what I take from it.


Remember, their flocks were too great together and that there were not enough resources to support them.

They had to split up, to prevent conflict with not only each other, but the local tribes, remember?Right, but Abraham didn't care which direction, which land, he got. He wasn't going to fight with Lot about who got more or who got less. That's the point of the story, IMO.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-19-2015, 03:17 PM
This story is about somebody being content with what they have and not getting jealous because someone else has something better. This is a guy making $60k a year being able to call himself successful.

You don't have anything to do with this story. It isn't about being content either.




It was about Abraham saying "You take what you want, I'll take what's left." If you get something else from the story than that's great, but that's not what I take from it.

They weren't taking anything, either. Abraham and Lot were nomadic people in this story. The were talking about which way to go when they split up.


Right, but Abraham didn't care which direction, which land, he got. He wasn't going to fight with Lot about who got more or who got less. That's the point of the story, IMO.

Go back and read it again, the book of Genesis it is more of a chronology and not every little story is a parable or a moral lesson. Although one can inject moral lessons, if they wish, but that isn't the point of story.

Abraham's larger story is an account of the first Hebrew, or the first Muslim if you prefer that view on it.

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 04:01 PM
Abraham's larger story is an account of the first Hebrew, or the first Muslim if you prefer that view on it.Indeed it is...and I have no preference as to whether he was the first Hebrew or Muslim.

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 04:02 PM
Although one can inject moral lessons, if they wish, but that isn't the point of story.


That's absolutely what it's about. That's what the entire bible is about.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-19-2015, 04:49 PM
That's absolutely what it's about. That's what the entire bible is about.

LOL!

The entire bible is about injecting one's morals into it.

You said that, not me.

What does this tell us about the bible. If it were really a book from the creator of the universe, then why have it appear as folk lore?

Not only that, morally inferior folk lore. Folk lore that has sanctioned human behavior in it that we consider horrendous.

Why must the creator talk to us only through folk lore? Also, why are the creator's morals inferior to our own?

sandsjames
05-19-2015, 04:56 PM
LOL!

The entire bible is about injecting one's morals into it.

You said that, not me. You seem like you think you won something???


What does this tell us about the bible. If it were really a book from the creator of the universe, then why have it appear as folk lore?

Not only that, morally inferior folk lore. Folk lore that has sanctioned human behavior in it that we consider horrendous.

Why must the creator talk to us only through folk lore? Also, why are the creator's morals inferior to our own? I don't know why.

One big difference between us is that I'm a "glass half full" guy and you're a "I wanna break your glass because I don't like you drinking out of it" kinda guy.

You continue to think that everyone should get the same message from the bible. I do not think that. That's something we'll never agree on so I still can't see what you are trying to do with this conversation.

Actually, I do see what you're trying to do. It's the typical internet forum maneuver where you spend all your time trying to catch me in a contradiction so you can feel like you win. You're not even trying to make a point anymore. You're simply trying to create a dialogue that will lead me into having to backtrack. I suppose that might be fun but I'm not sure why.