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raustin0017
06-30-2013, 09:01 PM
How many of you accomplished a Records Review before your record was scored for SMSgt? About 1/2 of those who take the time to request a review will find missing documents. Only about 40% of all MSgt ever request a review. A very simple task that might make a huge difference. In 2003 found the latest EPR was missing from my file.
15,000 records X 10-yrs in each folder = many mistakes.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
06-30-2013, 09:05 PM
Just curious to the percentage of fast burners who fail to check records for accuracy. Probably pretty low.

raustin0017
06-30-2013, 09:29 PM
Agree...most of those have someone mentoring along the way and take care of the easy stuff. I was 'directed' by a Chief to get it done and provide him proof it was accomplished. That is solid leadership.

raustin0017
06-30-2013, 09:42 PM
He used his size 11 in my back side.
Speed Mentoring was sort of cool. All the Chiefs were at the Club and about 40 or so Airmen came. Every 5 minutes they would rotate to another Chief for more questions.
The plan came from the Airman Council.

Capt Alfredo
06-30-2013, 09:49 PM
I know you asked about MSgts, but I actually took the PTDY to go down to Randolph and check my promotion selection folder for O-4. I brought a binder full of my decoration orders and OPRs and stuff and was able to get a few holes filled in. I happened to be TDY to San Antonio anyway, so got an extra day tacked on to drive up to AFPC. That PTDY is authorized for anyone, I do believe, and not just officers.

raustin0017
06-30-2013, 10:00 PM
Interesting. It sounds less like "Mentoring" and more like "Question and Answer." I am very cynical when it comes to these sort of events, especially when they are the brain child of some private organization such as an Airman's Council or a 5/6 Council. Usually they are nothing more than a bullet vehicle; a means to pad the AF Form 1206 of the A1C/SrA/SSgt/TSgt responsible for "leading/executing."

Other than the novelty factor, I wonder what one could take from "speed mentoring."

Anytime young Airmen / NCOs want an audience with a bunch of Chiefs...it is a good thing. The real benefit came afterwards when one-on-one meetings were conducted.

BOSS302
06-30-2013, 10:04 PM
He used his size 11 in my back side.
Speed Mentoring was sort of cool. All the Chiefs were at the Club and about 40 or so Airmen came. Every 5 minutes they would rotate to another Chief for more questions.
The plan came from the Airman Council.

Interesting. It sounds less like "Mentoring" and more like "Question and Answer." I am very cynical when it comes to these sort of events, especially when they are the brain child of some private organization such as an Airman's Council or a 5/6 Council. Usually they are nothing more than a bullet vehicle; a means to pad the AF Form 1206 of the A1C/SrA/SSgt/TSgt responsible for "leading/executing."

Other than the novelty factor, I wonder what one could take from "speed mentoring."

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
06-30-2013, 10:11 PM
I know you asked about MSgts, but I actually took the PTDY to go down to Randolph and check my promotion selection folder for O-4. I brought a binder full of my decoration orders and OPRs and stuff and was able to get a few holes filled in. I happened to be TDY to San Antonio anyway, so got an extra day tacked on to drive up to AFPC. That PTDY is authorized for anyone, I do believe, and not just officers.

About 20 of us flew a C-17 to Randolph to check records. Wing leadership bought off on it and the aircrew (except load) were Captains like the rest of us. Talk about FW&B!

raustin0017
06-30-2013, 10:11 PM
I know you asked about MSgts, but I actually took the PTDY to go down to Randolph and check my promotion selection folder for O-4. I brought a binder full of my decoration orders and OPRs and stuff and was able to get a few holes filled in. I happened to be TDY to San Antonio anyway, so got an extra day tacked on to drive up to AFPC. That PTDY is authorized for anyone, I do believe, and not just officers.

Sir, You are 100% correct. All anyone has to do is call them. They will fax or email a members records.

raustin0017
06-30-2013, 10:14 PM
Interesting. It sounds less like "Mentoring" and more like "Question and Answer." I am very cynical when it comes to these sort of events, especially when they are the brain child of some private organization such as an Airman's Council or a 5/6 Council. Usually they are nothing more than a bullet vehicle; a means to pad the AF Form 1206 of the A1C/SrA/SSgt/TSgt responsible for "leading/executing."

Other than the novelty factor, I wonder what one could take from "speed mentoring."

Anytime young Airmen / NCOs want an audience with a bunch of Chiefs...it is a good thing. The real benefit came afterwards when one-on-one meetings were conducted.

Airborne
06-30-2013, 10:51 PM
Anytime young Airmen / NCOs want an audience with a bunch of Chiefs...it is a good thing. The real benefit came afterwards when one-on-one meetings were conducted.

So contrived...

technomage1
06-30-2013, 10:51 PM
I did. They were missing 3 documents, I emailed them and presto it was fixed. Pretty simple process.

Chief_KO
07-01-2013, 01:30 AM
I did not check my records as a MSgt. The year I made SMSgt (second time), the same day selections were announced I got an email from the MPF. My records were missing the AFAM citation I received 14 years previously. Email stated I had to produce a copy of the citation within 5 days or my line number would be voided. Zipped home, got my citation, made copies and took to the MPF.
Funny, by SURF and RIP had the medal on it but the actual citation was missing in my records. Learned that lesson and was sure to educate my Airmen on the importance of keeping your own records and ensuring your AF records were complete.
I pulled all my SNCOs records from ARMS and sat down with each to give them my 2 cents on their record's promotability, strengths, & weaknesses. I would say about one-third had something missing.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 01:49 AM
I did not check my records as a MSgt. The year I made SMSgt (second time), the same day selections were announced I got an email from the MPF. My records were missing the AFAM citation I received 14 years previously. Email stated I had to produce a copy of the citation within 5 days or my line number would be voided. Zipped home, got my citation, made copies and took to the MPF.
Funny, by SURF and RIP had the medal on it but the actual citation was missing in my records. Learned that lesson and was sure to educate my Airmen on the importance of keeping your own records and ensuring your AF records were complete.
I pulled all my SNCOs records from ARMS and sat down with each to give them my 2 cents on their record's promotability, strengths, & weaknesses. I would say about one-third had something missing.

They were going to void your line number from a 14 year old missing AFAM? How could they do that? Did you make SMSgt by a point or less?

Chief_KO
07-01-2013, 02:04 AM
I don't remember how much I made it by, but it was more than 1 point. Without remembering the AFI (this was about 10 years ago) I think it comes down to the record was not complete, but the score was based upon I had received a PCS decoration way back when.

A couple years before when I was at Keesler I had a SrA who was in my element. He had just PCS'd in and came in with his vMPF printout showing that he had received an MSM from his last base. While the dec had not been presented or even on base yet he asked if he could wear the ribbon since it was in his records. I advised him that there was nothing stating he could not, but I would not just to be safe. Well, he thought he knew more than I and went out and updated his ribbon rack with the MSM. All my TSgts came in "demanding" that I instruct him to remove the ribbon. "Can you prove he doesn't have an MSM?" was my response..."no" was their response. They were more a$$hurt that a SrA could have been awarded an MSM rather than he being out of uniform. Of course a couple weeks later the vMPF mistake was corrected. He was awarded an AFCM for "Meritorious Service". The losing MPF must have hit the wrong key on the keyboard.

So, my records showed a PCS decoration from all but 1 assignment and was scored accordingly. The board members probably did not go through all the decs and noticed the missing citation (my assumption). But what I learned was that all the promotion selected folders go through a 100% data scrub AFTER the board meets to identify and discrepancies (like mine). I consider myself fortunate that the board did not see the missing citation and scored me lower (my assumption). Or that they did see the missing citation and said "It was 14 years ago, SSgt got an AFAM for 1 year in Korea...that's the norm."

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 02:10 AM
I don't remember how much I made it by, but it was more than 1 point. Without remembering the AFI (this was about 10 years ago) I think it comes down to the record was not complete, but the score was based upon I had received a PCS decoration way back when.

A couple years before when I was at Keesler I had a SrA who was in my element. He had just PCS'd in and came in with his vMPF printout showing that he had received an MSM from his last base. While the dec had not been presented or even on base yet he asked if he could wear the ribbon since it was in his records. I advised him that there was nothing stating he could not, but I would not just to be safe. Well, he thought he knew more than I and went out and updated his ribbon rack with the MSM. All my TSgts came in "demanding" that I instruct him to remove the ribbon. "Can you prove he doesn't have an MSM?" was my response..."no" was their response. They were more a$$hurt that a SrA could have been awarded an MSM rather than he being out of uniform. Of course a couple weeks later the vMPF mistake was corrected. He was awarded an AFCM for "Meritorious Service". The losing MPF must have hit the wrong key on the keyboard.

So, my records showed a PCS decoration from all but 1 assignment and was scored accordingly. The board members probably did not go through all the decs and noticed the missing citation (my assumption). But what I learned was that all the promotion selected folders go through a 100% data scrub AFTER the board meets to identify and discrepancies (like mine). I consider myself fortunate that the board did not see the missing citation and scored me lower (my assumption). Or that they did see the missing citation and said "It was 14 years ago, SSgt got an AFAM for 1 year in Korea...that's the norm."

Got it...although if the board would have scored you differently based on a 14-year old dec, I think that's crap. So if you could not find that citation, you would've been screwed and your line number taken away? Crap.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 02:11 AM
I've also learned that the burden of proof is always on you. Say you were somewhere that had open burn pits...and now have breathing problems. How can you prove that you were there? I have a file folder from each assignment and deployment. Travel vouchers, letters of (fill in the blank), etc. along with all my decs and APRs/EPRs. When I retired I burnt 3 CDs with all my data and medical records on top of the paper copies.
Ya never know...and it will always be a he-said/she-said without some paper.

I know what you're saying, but the point I'm trying to make is that I think it's garbage if the board would have actually scored you differently based on you having or not having a 14 year old dec.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 02:12 AM
I've also learned that the burden of proof is always on you. Say you were somewhere that had open burn pits...and now have breathing problems. How can you prove that you were there? I have a file folder from each assignment and deployment. Travel vouchers, letters of (fill in the blank), etc. along with all my decs and APRs/EPRs. When I retired I burnt 3 CDs with all my data and medical records on top of the paper copies.
Ya never know...and it will always be a he-said/she-said without some paper.

I know what you're saying, but the point I'm trying to make is that I think it's garbage if the board would have actually scored you differently based on you having or not having a 14 year old dec.

Chief_KO
07-01-2013, 02:23 AM
I've also learned that the burden of proof is always on you. Say you were somewhere that had open burn pits...and now have breathing problems. How can you prove that you were there? I have a file folder from each assignment and deployment. Travel vouchers, letters of (fill in the blank), etc. along with all my decs and APRs/EPRs. When I retired I burnt 3 CDs with all my data and medical records on top of the paper copies.
Ya never know...and it will always be a he-said/she-said without some paper.

Chief_KO
07-01-2013, 02:24 AM
I know what you're saying, but the point I'm trying to make is that I think it's garbage if the board would have actually scored you differently based on you having or not having a 14 year old dec.

Read the fine print about "the member's responsibility to ensure their record is correct" or something along those lines. And with it all being electronic, all you need to do is follow the instructions and they will email you your folder. On top of that its in ARMS as well.

As the board sees the last 10 years of EPRs and ALL your decorations the board can look to see if a member got a dec at each PCS (which we know is the standard) and if that decoration is at the appropriate level (or higher level for possible higher score).

Not saying that the process is 100% fair, or accurate but it is the process. All we have to do is make sure the board is seeing all the information. How many Airmen take a copy of their recently received citation to the MPF to get added to their records? Answer: Not too many. Reason: "That's the MPF's job". True statement, but it is your career, not the Airman, civilian, or contractor working at the MPF or AFPC.

tiredretiredE7
07-01-2013, 02:26 AM
I don't remember how much I made it by, but it was more than 1 point. Without remembering the AFI (this was about 10 years ago) I think it comes down to the record was not complete, but the score was based upon I had received a PCS decoration way back when.So, my records showed a PCS decoration from all but 1 assignment and was scored accordingly. The board members probably did not go through all the decs and noticed the missing citation (my assumption). But what I learned was that all the promotion selected folders go through a 100% data scrub AFTER the board meets to identify and discrepancies (like mine). I consider myself fortunate that the board did not see the missing citation and scored me lower (my assumption). Or that they did see the missing citation and said "It was 14 years ago, SSgt got an AFAM for 1 year in Korea...that's the norm."

I will explain the problems since some the forums people proclaiming to be "chiefs" have not. A GS-5 gets all of your records for the board. The GS-5 updates your records in the system as 0 while the boards has them. The board processes your records and the GS-5 is supposed to retrieve your records from the board and update your records in the system. Some of your records get lost and the GS-5 only updates the system for the physical records In your file. You get selected for promotion and the system is checked to ensure the records you were promoted on exist in the system but some don't because the board or the GS-5 lost them during the board review. The most important records check is immediately after promotion notification so you can ensure all of your records were returned to your file after the board and GS-5 have completed the process.

Chief_KO
07-01-2013, 02:31 AM
I thought current time, if your record is wrong and you test, you're screwed.

I never got the opportunity to sit on a board, but from what I heard is that if the missing document is recent it would result in the board's quick scoring of a 6. It did get the CMSAF push from McKinley a few years back, and most bases are teaching this at NCOPE/SNCOPE. And since it's all on line...it's getting really hard to have any sympathy on anyone with incomplete records.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 02:49 AM
All decs count no matter time gone, max 25 right?

Those are dec points. Separate from the board score.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 02:55 AM
I got it, but it seems like you're still not understanding what I'm getting at. A 14-year old dec should have no bearing on a board score IMO.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 03:04 AM
All decs count no matter time gone, max 25 right?

Those are dec points. Separate from the board score.

CrustySMSgt
07-01-2013, 05:10 AM
Sir, You are 100% correct. All anyone has to do is call them. They will fax or email a members records.

Fax?!? You're showing your age! :pound


A couple years before when I was at Keesler I had a SrA who was in my element. He had just PCS'd in and came in with his vMPF printout showing that he had received an MSM from his last base. While the dec had not been presented or even on base yet he asked if he could wear the ribbon since it was in his records. I advised him that there was nothing stating he could not, but I would not just to be safe. Well, he thought he knew more than I and went out and updated his ribbon rack with the MSM. All my TSgts came in "demanding" that I instruct him to remove the ribbon. "Can you prove he doesn't have an MSM?" was my response..."no" was their response. They were more a$$hurt that a SrA could have been awarded an MSM rather than he being out of uniform. Of course a couple weeks later the vMPF mistake was corrected. He was awarded an AFCM for "Meritorious Service". The losing MPF must have hit the wrong key on the keyboard.

So, my records showed a PCS decoration from all but 1 assignment and was scored accordingly. The board members probably did not go through all the decs and noticed the missing citation (my assumption). But what I learned was that all the promotion selected folders go through a 100% data scrub AFTER the board meets to identify and discrepancies (like mine). I consider myself fortunate that the board did not see the missing citation and scored me lower (my assumption). Or that they did see the missing citation and said "It was 14 years ago, SSgt got an AFAM for 1 year in Korea...that's the norm."

Seems like a quick call back to his unit could have cleared up the mistake... even is he was a super awesome Airman, thinking he'd earned an MSM should have made him ask the question. I hope he went out & spent a bunch of money on thin ribbons.

When the board is presented a folder, most discrepancies have been identied already, and the folder will have an extra sheet of paper in it, detailing what is missing. While it didn't automatically result in a lower score, it was just another thing to consider; if a MSgt can't take care of their own record to ensure it is complete, is he/she someone you want taking care of other Airmen's careers? Assuming it was the last AFAM you'd earned, it would be listed on your SURF, correlating to your PCS date, so the citation being missing wouldn't have been a huge deal, especially from 14 years ago.


I never got the opportunity to sit on a board, but from what I heard is that if the missing document is recent it would result in the board's quick scoring of a 6. It did get the CMSAF push from McKinley a few years back, and most bases are teaching this at NCOPE/SNCOPE. And since it's all on line...it's getting really hard to have any sympathy on anyone with incomplete records.

Definitely not that big of a factor.

raustin0017
07-01-2013, 01:13 PM
Note: I sat on a promotion board. The first thing you see when you open up a record is a "missing document report". If the SNCO took action to find a missing doc and contacted the board...the action is recorded. In that case the record is scored as is without penalty. If there is zero action by the member the record is scored as is ...the only difference is the two Chiefs and one Col scoring understand the member did not the time to review his/her record. It is not automatically scored a 6...it is scored as the three board members find it.

DWWSWWD
07-01-2013, 01:31 PM
After I made SMSgt, I realized I was missing an AFCM. A couple of years after I made CMSgt, I had applied for a job and a CCM was looking at my records. He pointed out a very serious markdown on the front of my top EPR for the Chief board. Still made Chief the first time.

Regarding old medals not being relevant..... Medals are sometimes a big deal that is why they are all reviewed by the board, regardless of when you earned them. One reason why I well folks to make sure that all awards are mentioned in your PCS decs, PME awards, Amn of Quarter, whatever. The EPRs will fall off after 10 years but the decs never will. It's one way to let them see something that they wouldn't otherwise be able to see.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 07:51 PM
Note: I sat on a promotion board. The first thing you see when you open up a record is a "missing document report". If the SNCO took action to find a missing doc and contacted the board...the action is recorded. In that case the record is scored as is without penalty. If there is zero action by the member the record is scored as is ...the only difference is the two Chiefs and one Col scoring understand the member did not the time to review his/her record. It is not automatically scored a 6...it is scored as the three board members find it.

Please clarify something...

You said
...the only difference is the two Chiefs and one Col scoring understand the member did not the time to review his/her record.

then said
It is not automatically scored a 6...it is scored as the three board members find it.

So even know that the member did not take the time to fix their record, the board is not going to look at that negatively and let it influence their scoring? They will still score it as is? Maybe they say "score the record as is", but I have a hard time believing that it doesn't influence how they score when the first thing they see is a missing doc report and the service member didn't care about fixing it.

raustin0017
07-01-2013, 08:29 PM
My bad....they score the record knowing the member did nothing to check his/her record. The record will take a hit...but not necessary an automatic 6.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 08:52 PM
My bad....they score the record knowing the member did nothing to check his/her record. The record will take a hit...but not necessary an automatic 6.

Thanks for the clarification.

20+Years
07-01-2013, 08:59 PM
In every unit I have been in since putting on MSgt, I have heard the "check your record" preached along with directions on how.

I had the honor of doing an in person check, I've had mine e-mailed, and called. The system works pretty well and the people working there when I called were pretty darn friendly. I am sure I was the hundreth call that day concerned about thier record and they acted like the problem was important to them too.

CrustySMSgt
07-02-2013, 06:56 AM
So even know that the member did not take the time to fix their record, the board is not going to look at that negatively and let it influence their scoring? They will still score it as is? Maybe they say "score the record as is", but I have a hard time believing that it doesn't influence how they score when the first thing they see is a missing doc report and the service member didn't care about fixing it.

As with everything in the record, it is all subjective. If the record has something missing but other than that it is an phenominal record, chances are the missing item will have less impact. If it is an average record or worse, then that is just another indicator that this might not be the right person to make the cut.

Also remember, the 3 panel members must score within a point, so you figure out pretty quickly what matters to the other panel members. Just because one panel member thinks this is the word thing a person could do, doesn't mean they would sway the other two panel members to agree... and if they didn't meet somewhere in the middle, they'd be spending a LONG time arguing about splits.

Chief_KO
07-05-2013, 12:27 PM
I did "stretch" the truth when I stated a recent missing document would result in the board scoring the record as a 6. I used that as a "teaching moment" to underscore the importance of checking your records. The point being, what is a board member to think about your seriousness towards your own career when your'e missing a recent EPR or decoration. I know when I tell my own story over the missing AFAM from 14 years ago it catches the attention of a whole lot of SNCOs who came back later to tell me they requested their records and thanked me for the advice.

imported_BRAVO10000
07-05-2013, 12:59 PM
I did "stretch" the truth when I stated a recent missing document would result in the board scoring the record as a 6. I used that as a "teaching moment" to underscore the importance of checking your records. The point being, what is a board member to think about your seriousness towards your own career when your'e missing a recent EPR or decoration. I know when I tell my own story over the missing AFAM from 14 years ago it catches the attention of a whole lot of SNCOs who came back later to tell me they requested their records and thanked me for the advice.


Are you aware that the Board Secretariat now maintains all those records centrally...and will provide only one copy (whether "As Is" or "As Met")? I had a huge fight with them when I made corrections and asked for an updated "As Is". They told me that I had to wait for a year. For the record, all the records were there in ARMS, but my SNCO Selection package was missing an EPR and a dec citation.

The more surprising thing is that there are board members unaware of this.

CrustySMSgt
07-05-2013, 01:08 PM
I did "stretch" the truth when I stated a recent missing document would result in the board scoring the record as a 6. I used that as a "teaching moment" to underscore the importance of checking your records. The point being, what is a board member to think about your seriousness towards your own career when your'e missing a recent EPR or decoration. I know when I tell my own story over the missing AFAM from 14 years ago it catches the attention of a whole lot of SNCOs who came back later to tell me they requested their records and thanked me for the advice.

Understand the intent and agree with the reasoning behind it... but with all the "mystery" and confusion behind what the board may or may not do, no doubt some folks would take what you said an run with it, leading to more myths and misinformation.

Glad places like this are around to help educate folks; thanks to all who spend their time to pass along what they know and share their experiences!

Measure Man
07-05-2013, 02:06 PM
As I was PCSing from one assignment, I was awared an MSM which was, I think my 3rd MSM.

Problem was, they goofed on the citation and put in "2nd OLC" and it was filed. Well, once I got it and brought that up, it was corrected to read "3d OLC"...and entered into my records.

When I did a records check, I noticed that when they received my original mistaken dec...they removed my real "2nd OLC" cluster one, and replaced it with what they newly received. Then, when they received the corrected one with "3d OLC"...they just filed that.

So, essentially, when I did my records check, my "2nd OLC" and "3rd OLC" MSMs were identical in the citation.

Took a little to clear that one up!

Measure Man
07-05-2013, 02:07 PM
About 1/2 of those who take the time to request a review will find missing documents.

If 1/2 of the documentation folders in my office were missing documents...I would've been fired a long time ago.

DWWSWWD
07-05-2013, 02:41 PM
I just got an e-mail Wednesday from the person screening records for the CCM board. Said I am missing 6 AFAMs from my SURF. How in the hell does that happen? They were there at one point.

tiredretiredE7
07-05-2013, 02:58 PM
I just got an e-mail Wednesday from the person screening records for the CCM board. Said I am missing 6 AFAMs from my SURF. How in the hell does that happen? They were there at one point.

Ok, I already posted this once but here is the answer again. A GS-5 retrieves your physical documents out of your records for the board to review. The GS-5 then updates your SURF to show 0 for your EPRs and Decs while the board has your physical records. The GS-5 is supposed to retrieve your physical documents from the board after the board is complete reviewing your records but often does not so you end up with missing records. You can often see the difference in the amount of EPRs and Decs in your SURF after the board is complete since the GS-5 can only update your SURF with the documents that are in your records. The much bigger problem occurs when an individual is selected for promotion and a review of the physical records is completed and then some documents are discovered missing. This has been a problem 2007.

raustin0017
07-05-2013, 05:07 PM
I just got an e-mail Wednesday from the person screening records for the CCM board. Said I am missing 6 AFAMs from my SURF. How in the hell does that happen? They were there at one point.
Easy enough fix...good luck with the CCM board!

raustin0017
07-05-2013, 06:09 PM
Board? not too long along they were non volunteering for CCM right?

Different process now. Every Sr Rater can nominate candidates who meet the criteria. Those nominees records are forward to a special panel/board made up of HQ (type) CCMs. Then a list (blessed by CMSAF) is created and sent back to all Sr Raters who have CCM billets. Once your name is on the list...you are 'all-in'. If offered a position and you trun down...your done. Sr Raters are the hiring authority and simply contact the Chiefs Group to secure the details for reporting. About 75 to 80 CCMs a year are selected.

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 06:42 PM
As I was PCSing from one assignment, I was awared an MSM which was, I think my 3rd MSM.

Problem was, they goofed on the citation and put in "2nd OLC" and it was filed. Well, once I got it and brought that up, it was corrected to read "3d OLC"...and entered into my records.

When I did a records check, I noticed that when they received my original mistaken dec...they removed my real "2nd OLC" cluster one, and replaced it with what they newly received. Then, when they received the corrected one with "3d OLC"...they just filed that.

So, essentially, when I did my records check, my "2nd OLC" and "3rd OLC" MSMs were identical in the citation.

Took a little to clear that one up!

?????

If it was your third MSM, "2nd OLC" would have been correct. "3d OLC" would be your 4th time receiving it.

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 07:08 PM
Thanks for info. Explain "your done"
Do you mean theyll get stuck with
Lessor jobs like sq or grp chief?
Should all chiefs strive to be CCC?
Should they create a e-10 position?
I think CCC should require a bachelors.

I think CCM should be done away with. What purpose does the position really serve?

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 07:17 PM
Well a good one can speak, fight, motivate, advocate for enlisted force.
Can use powers for good. Can have CCs ear on vital subjects.
A chief, probably well over 20 should have 4 year degree.

Why doesn't the Chief's Group or even the Top III have the CC's ear?

raustin0017
07-05-2013, 07:24 PM
If a Sr Rater offers a job and you turn it down you have to retire. Unless the rules have changed....that is the way it is.
There are a few Chiefs who have served as Cmd Chiefs and then returned to other jobs at lower levels but that is not the norm.
All Chiefs strive to be Cmd Chiefs? Nope. Don't believe so. During the Sr Rater nomination process at the Wg level most Chiefs would make it known if they don't want to serve. That don't necessary take them off the list but many Sr Raters would not nominate someone who don't want the job in the 1st place. Have meet plenty of Chiefs who just don't want to serve in that position. For me...I PCSed to Germany and had 4 yrs till 30. At the 24 month mark I got the call. Arrived Altus with 2 yrs left. Never thought in a 1,000 yrs an enlisted aviator would serve as Cmd Chief. Only knew of one other in my time. I'm sure there are more out there but it is rare.
E-10? No way. The only change I would like to see happen delete the 30-yr max. Example: The AF invests close to 25 yrs to make a Chief then uses them for 5 and then TIS deletes them.
CCC education. Only requirement is a CCAF. Education helped me advance and here is why. When I (TSgt) started my B.S. w/Embry Riddle I challenge myself to graduate with 4.0. I had been out of school for 18 years and my reading comprehension was very low. Lots of reading...it got better and better. When it was time to study for MSgt I had created solid study habits. Fell short of my goal and earned 3.8 for my B.S. but 4.0 for my M.S. Keep in mind both degrees were in Aeronautics and I was an enlisted aviator. It reads good in your record if your education is lined up to assist you in your primary duties.

Measure Man
07-05-2013, 07:26 PM
?????

If it was your third MSM, "2nd OLC" would have been correct. "3d OLC" would be your 4th time receiving it.

Yeah,...good catch...that's what I meant. Whichever it was, it had the wrong # of OLCs on the citation the first time. I got 6 MSMs altogether.

raustin0017
07-05-2013, 07:31 PM
Why doesn't the Chief's Group or even the Top III have the CC's ear?

Both of those private organizations should be focused on one thing. Trying to help the younger enlisted force. If a Chiefs Gp/Top 3 is only focused about themselves...it should not exist. When/if they need CCs help the door is always open for them to request assistance. All Wg/CC that I have known have always found time to attend both of the meetings when invited and assist in anyway possible. The Cmd Chief is usually the eyes/ears for the CC and should bring info to and from both organizations.

Measure Man
07-05-2013, 07:33 PM
I think CCM should be done away with. What purpose does the position really serve?

I wouldn't go so far as to say they should be done away with...but, I do think they should be cut back. There are too many...seems like most bases have at least 2 or 3 CCMs running around. With a host wing, ABW, tenant wings, NAFs, MAJCOMs, whatever...let's stick to one per base, the host Wing...then maybe MAJCOM CCMs.

I don't see the need for a NAF CCM, what does a NAF have, like <100 enlisted personnel? They aren't really responsible for enlisted issues too much.

It's sort of interesting to watch how the SEA for CJCS has been going...a few years ago they started it up, next guy didn't want one, next guy did...again, at that level of strategic adivsing, the CJCS should not be dealing with enlisted issues...so I don't get the need for the SEA.


Why doesn't the Chief's Group or even the Top III have the CC's ear?

Those are private organizations...they have no official role.

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 07:36 PM
Yeah,...good catch...that's what I meant. Whichever it was, it had the wrong # of OLCs on the citation the first time.

Similar thing happen to me. I have an AFCM in my records that should be 1 OLC. For some reason, they "corrected" it and now my records indicate the wrong number of OLC's for the AFCM. I've been over this with them several times to say the least, but it never gets fixed, even though they said they understand. Do these people simply not give a crap or are they really a bunch of idiots? Like you basically said earlier...If I did my job as bad as they do theirs, I would have been fired a long time ago.

DWWSWWD
07-05-2013, 07:36 PM
The only change I would like to see happen delete the 30-yr max. Example: The AF invests close to 25 yrs to make a Chief then uses them for 5 and then TIS deletes them.
Too many 28-30 yr guys hanging around that need to go, as it is. The super high potential guys are making it earlier and have plenty of time to be groomed for the MAJCOM billets. I don't see a whole lot of value to the sled dogs from a guy that has been a Chief for 15 yrs.

True enough that if a guy is offered a job and turns it down, he can be made to retire. The reality is that if you don't feel the job is a good fit for you and your family, most often a hire request will never be submitted. If the Chief pisses off the hiring authority or gives him the idea that he is dodging any CCM job, then badness can happen. So, All In, isn't really All In. The hiring authorities are usually in a similar position with kids in high school, close to retirement etc. They are pretty understanding, which undermines the intent of the system.

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 07:44 PM
I don't see the need for a NAF CCM, what does a NAF have, like <100 enlisted personnel? They aren't really responsible for enlisted issues too much.

Now that you mention it...NAF's...another thing that could be done away with.


Those are private organizations...they have no official role.

AFSA is a private org, but they have our elected leaders ears, so why shouldn't a base's senior enlisted leaders have the CC's ear? Chief's should be out leading enlisted, grooming young officers and advising their own CC, not being led around by the WG/CC on a leash having him parrot everything he says IMO.

raustin0017
07-05-2013, 07:44 PM
Ramstein AB is a great example. I got there in June 2008. Met my Cmd Chief and asked him what Top 3 should I support? There were three of them on the base. There were 5 Cmd Chiefs on base.
19 AF was just deactivated a short while ago and nobody really notice. Most/if not all NAFs could go away with limited interruption to the mission sets.

Measure Man
07-05-2013, 07:44 PM
Too many 28-30 yr guys hanging around that need to go, as it is. The super high potential guys are making it earlier and have plenty of time to be groomed for the MAJCOM billets. I don't see a whole lot of value to the sled dogs from a guy that has been a Chief for 15 yrs.

True enough that if a guy is offered a job and turns it down, he can be made to retire. The reality is that if you don't feel the job is a good fit for you and your family, most often a hire request will never be submitted. If the Chief pisses off the hiring authority or gives him the idea that he is dodging any CCM job, then badness can happen. So, All In, isn't really All In. The hiring authorities are usually in a similar position with kids in high school, close to retirement etc. They are pretty understanding, which undermines the intent of the system.

You know, I think the original idea once the Chief's Group moved to SLMO was to treat all chiefs that way...you're all-in...you don't make calls to get assignment, etc. Didn't work out too well...the old crusty AFSC chiefs weren't having it.

I remember talking to my old Colonel one time...he relayed that once you make 0-6, the first thing they do is your senior rater sits you down and explains that "colonels do not make colonel assignments, generals do...you will not make calls, search for openings, let so-and-so know you're available, etc...you will do this job until we give you another one, end of story." Apparently it is a cardinal sin for full Colonel's to maneuver for assignments...and that was originally the model they wanted Chief's to follow. Didn't work, as you mentioned...kids in school, house bought, wife working etc...papers dropping. But, they figured they could get that level of commitment from guys that wanted to be CCMs.

Now there was a time, prior to SLMO, where AFSC chiefs would pretty much make their own assignments by consensus and then tell the Chief's Group what they assignments would be. They also used to give courtesy notices of an upcoming assignment, so the Chief could drop papers for 1 year out instead of 7 months once they got official notification...or he could find the #2 guy and convince him to volunteer so that he didn't have to retire at all. That stuff definitely ended with SLMO.

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 07:45 PM
Could be channeled through command chief.

That needs a special position to do that? Sounds like an additional duty to me.

raustin0017
07-05-2013, 07:55 PM
^^^ made me LOL

Measure Man
07-05-2013, 07:58 PM
Now that you mention it...NAF's...another thing that could be done away with.


Most/if not all NAFs could go away with limited interruption to the mission sets.

Well, NAFs were designed to be the warfighters. When a war happens, the NAF CC is supposed to be the "air forces advisor" to the theater commanders...without much of a peacetime mission other than to plan and prepare for that wartime mission. So, yeah, enlisted issues, not their problem. The function of the MAJCOMs is to train and equip the forces...if all-out war hits, they then turn those forces over to the theater commander to command, with the advice of his air component commander, who is/was the NAF CC. Sometimes you'll see the same guys wearing multiple hats.

The NAFs though, seem to have sort of, over the years, drifted into a layer of middle management between the wings and the MAJCOMs...but that's not really what they are supposed to do.

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 08:04 PM
Well, NAFs were designed to be the warfighters. When a war happens, the NAF CC is supposed to be the "air forces advisor" to the theater commanders...without much of a peacetime mission other than to plan and prepare for that wartime mission. So, yeah, enlisted issues, not their problem. The function of the MAJCOMs is to train and equip the forces...if all-out war hits, they then turn those forces over to the theater commander to command, with the advice of his air component commander, who is/was the NAF CC. Sometimes you'll see the same guys wearing multiple hats.

The NAFs though, seem to have sort of, over the years, drifted into a layer of middle management between the wings and the MAJCOMs...but that's not really what they are supposed to do.

13th AF was just absorbed into HQ PACAF and PACAF is now a C-MAJCOM. 5th AF doesn't even have a real mission that I know of and people that I know that PCS'ed from HQ 5 AF said the only reason it still exists is politics with the GOJ. 11 AF just took on Andersen and Hickam after the 13th went away. The only real "warfighter" NAF in PACAF is the 7th on the ROK, IMO. The rest could go away an nobody would notice.

grimreaper
07-05-2013, 08:14 PM
Many positions needed apparently
http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123201066

We wonder why we continue to struggle with manpower issues when we have people like this in made up positions who should be out leading NCO's and airmen. Instead, they are playing secretary to someone who should be out doing the same thing.

Chief_KO
07-05-2013, 09:13 PM
GF, just when I was looking forward to the weekend you had to go and ruin it for me. CCC Execs (along with all other execs without a billet) are example number 1 of fraud, waste, and abuse (IMO).
Only knew of 1 CCC that did not have one...

raustin0017
07-05-2013, 10:28 PM
GF, just when I was looking forward to the weekend you had to go and ruin it for me. CCC Execs (along with all other execs without a billet) are example number 1 of fraud, waste, and abuse (IMO).
Only knew of 1 CCC that did not have one...

Okay...I'll bite. Do Cmd Chiefs need assistants? Wonder why you only knew of 1 that did not have one? I was Altus AFB...sort of a smaller base. One Wing, one mission, one Boss. There were close to 1,400 enlisted on base within 13 Squadrons. In the two years I had the honor to serve in that position...never had I put more time/effort into anything I had ever done.

Question: Did/does your Sq/CC have a secretary or exec? Why would they? Is it to catch the phone when behind closed doors? Is it to set the calendar to schedule the appointments? Is it to greet those awaiting to see the Sq/CC while the CC's door is shut? Is it to remind him/her that their next appointment is in 5 minutes across the base? I can tell you that my Cmd Chief schedule was way more filled than any Sq/CCs at Altus. This was my one and only time I served...and only know what I know.

For the two years I was at Altus I had three different assistants; one TSgt, one SrA, and one SSgt. Could I have done without an assistant? Yes...of course. Would it have been more efficient? No FW.

All 'On-loan' positions are reviewed annually at the Wg level. It is up to Wg/Gp/Sq leadership to sort out the mess.

I guess the Records Review topic is dead?

Airborne
07-05-2013, 11:28 PM
Okay...I'll bite. Do Cmd Chiefs need assistants? Wonder why you only knew of 1 that did not have one? I was Altus AFB...sort of a smaller base. One Wing, one mission, one Boss. There were close to 1,400 enlisted on base within 13 Squadrons. In the two years I had the honor to serve in that position...never had I put more time/effort into anything I had ever done.

Question: Did/does your Sq/CC have a secretary or exec? Why would they? Is it to catch the phone when behind closed doors? Is it to set the calendar to schedule the appointments? Is it to greet those awaiting to see the Sq/CC while the CC's door is shut? Is it to remind him/her that their next appointment is in 5 minutes across the base? I can tell you that my Cmd Chief schedule was way more filled than any Sq/CCs at Altus. This was my one and only time I served...and only know what I know.

For the two years I was at Altus I had three different assistants; one TSgt, one SrA, and one SSgt. Could I have done without an assistant? Yes...of course. Would it have been more efficient? No FW.

All 'On-loan' positions are reviewed annually at the Wg level. It is up to Wg/Gp/Sq leadership to sort out the mess.

I guess the Records Review topic is dead?

I dont think anyone would question whether it was needed or not. But why not make it a funded slot instead of a "stealing' from another sq? Probably because it wouldnt fly which speaks volumes. Im waiting for the career broadening, expand your horizons, blah blah retort.... I get it. I didnt have a problem with it 5 years ago to be honest, but people are maxed out, plus I cringe at the thought of an enlisted man (person) needing and exec. Im sure one becomes a bit blinded by the power of the position but I dont think CCCs need an exec of their own. There should be a command exec where that person works for the CC and the Chief. No need for it to be a separate position in most situations.

Airborne
07-05-2013, 11:28 PM
Okay...I'll bite. Do Cmd Chiefs need assistants? Wonder why you only knew of 1 that did not have one? I was Altus AFB...sort of a smaller base. One Wing, one mission, one Boss. There were close to 1,400 enlisted on base within 13 Squadrons. In the two years I had the honor to serve in that position...never had I put more time/effort into anything I had ever done.

Question: Did/does your Sq/CC have a secretary or exec? Why would they? Is it to catch the phone when behind closed doors? Is it to set the calendar to schedule the appointments? Is it to greet those awaiting to see the Sq/CC while the CC's door is shut? Is it to remind him/her that their next appointment is in 5 minutes across the base? I can tell you that my Cmd Chief schedule was way more filled than any Sq/CCs at Altus. This was my one and only time I served...and only know what I know.

For the two years I was at Altus I had three different assistants; one TSgt, one SrA, and one SSgt. Could I have done without an assistant? Yes...of course. Would it have been more efficient? No FW.

All 'On-loan' positions are reviewed annually at the Wg level. It is up to Wg/Gp/Sq leadership to sort out the mess.

I guess the Records Review topic is dead?

I dont think anyone would question whether it was needed or not. But why not make it a funded slot instead of a "stealing' from another sq? Probably because it wouldnt fly which speaks volumes. Im waiting for the career broadening, expand your horizons, blah blah retort.... I get it. I didnt have a problem with it 5 years ago to be honest, but people are maxed out, plus I cringe at the thought of an enlisted man (person) needing and exec. Im sure one becomes a bit blinded by the power of the position but I dont think CCCs need an exec of their own. There should be a command exec where that person works for the CC and the Chief. No need for it to be a separate position in most situations.

RobotChicken
07-06-2013, 02:11 AM
"Or any support troops unless their 'bootlickers!"

Airborne
07-06-2013, 02:32 AM
You must really love general enlisted aides, or enlisted flight attendants.

Both funded slots....