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Robert F. Dorr
06-16-2013, 02:04 PM
My third attempt to position this Air Force topic on the Air Force Forum.

If my lifelong friends Joe Fives, Larry Harry, Bill Randol and Dick Ristaino were still with us, they would remember "Black Tuesday," June 16, 1959, when we listened to two North Korean MiG-17s attacking a Navy P4M-1Q Mercator reconnaissance aircraft of squadron VQ-1 over the Sea of Japan.

Later learned the P4M-1Q pilot, who saved his crew and plane after being fired upon, was Vincent Anania (1920-2008). He was the father of Elizabeth Edwards (1949-2010), wife of a prominent presidential candidate. They're gone now, all of them.

sandsjames
06-16-2013, 02:13 PM
My third attempt to position this Air Force topic on the Air Force Forum.

If my lifelong friends Joe Fives, Larry Harry, Bill Randol and Dick Ristaino were still with us, they would remember "Black Tuesday," June 16, 1959, when we listened to two North Korean MiG-17s attacking a Navy P4M-1Q Mercator reconnaissance aircraft of squadron VQ-1 over the Sea of Japan.

Later learned the P4M-1Q pilot, who saved his crew and plane after being fired upon, was Vincent Anania (1920-2008). He was the father of Elizabeth Edwards (1949-2010), wife of a prominent presidential candidate. They're gone now, all of them.

Very sad. I think examples like this are the best reminder of our own mortality. As I age it I notice the deaths of people who I know, or am familiar with, much more than I used to. Each time a death of a friend or a high profile person occurs it makes me realize that my time is limited. It also makes me feel as if I should have spent more time with those people when I had the chance.

Robert F. Dorr
06-16-2013, 02:50 PM
Might I suggest another title for your thread? Try using P4M-1Q Mercator Shoot Down

I think people will see “NSA Program” and think you are talking about the NSA surveillance program that is in the news lately.

I am familiar with the program you reference, generically it is known as Advisory Support or Threat Warning and it is a joint service program. It was called a number of different names during the course of the Cold War. I worked in a number of jobs related to that program and its later variations for a large part of my career.

Here is a short description of the of the shoot down you are referring to:

P4M-1Q BUNO
June 16, 1959, Aircraft was on a routine recce mission over the Sea of Japan off the North Korean coast. While the Mercator was at 7,000 ft off Wonsan, North Korea, two MIGs attacked with cannon fire. A few moments later, the tailgunner, 20 year old PO2 Eugene Corder, collapsed with more than 40 shrapnel wounds. Now totally unarmed, the Mercator continued to be attacked by the MIGs at LCDR Donald Mayer dove for the deck in an attempt to escape. By the time Mayer reached 50 ft altitude above the Sea of Japan , the P4M's two starboard engines and rudder had been shot away. On the way down the copilot. , LCDR Vince Anania, could see the Red Stars painted on the fuselages of the North Korean fighters as they made six more passes at the crippled P4M. The Mercator was barely able to limp back to Japan and make an emergency landing at Miho Air Base. LCDR Anania was a former all-American footbsll player at the Naval Academy and his extraordinary strength was a significant factor in keeping the cripple plane airborne. Petty Officer Corder recovered from his wounds, receiving a Purple Heart. VQ-1 records show DFC's were presented to the pilot and copliot, while Air Medals went to the remainder of the crew.

Where you and your comrades at Osan AB listing to this incident or in another reconnaissance aircraft over the peninsula?

It is my intention to discuss the current news about NSA surveillance on the Air Force Forums,not in the In The News Forum. I initially introduced the topic of current NSA surveillance with a roster of points made by a retired Air Force colonel.

I was not flying that day. I was on the ground, as were the four airmen I named.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-16-2013, 02:51 PM
My third attempt to position this Air Force topic on the Air Force Forum.

If my lifelong friends Joe Fives, Larry Harry, Bill Randol and Dick Ristaino were still with us, they would remember "Black Tuesday," June 16, 1959, when we listened to two North Korean MiG-17s attacking a Navy P4M-1Q Mercator reconnaissance aircraft of squadron VQ-1 over the Sea of Japan.

Later learned the P4M-1Q pilot, who saved his crew and plane after being fired upon, was Vincent Anania (1920-2008). He was the father of Elizabeth Edwards (1949-2010), wife of a prominent presidential candidate. They're gone now, all of them.

Might I suggest another title for your thread? Try using P4M-1Q Mercator Shoot Down

I think people will see “NSA Program” and think you are talking about the NSA surveillance program that is in the news lately.

I am familiar with the program you reference, generically it is known as Advisory Support or Threat Warning and it is a joint service program. It was called a number of different names during the course of the Cold War. I worked in a number of jobs related to that program and its later variations for a large part of my career.

Here is a short description of the of the shoot down you are referring to:

P4M-1Q BUNO
June 16, 1959, Aircraft was on a routine recce mission over the Sea of Japan off the North Korean coast. While the Mercator was at 7,000 ft off Wonsan, North Korea, two MIGs attacked with cannon fire. A few moments later, the tailgunner, 20 year old PO2 Eugene Corder, collapsed with more than 40 shrapnel wounds. Now totally unarmed, the Mercator continued to be attacked by the MIGs at LCDR Donald Mayer dove for the deck in an attempt to escape. By the time Mayer reached 50 ft altitude above the Sea of Japan , the P4M's two starboard engines and rudder had been shot away. On the way down the copilot. , LCDR Vince Anania, could see the Red Stars painted on the fuselages of the North Korean fighters as they made six more passes at the crippled P4M. The Mercator was barely able to limp back to Japan and make an emergency landing at Miho Air Base. LCDR Anania was a former all-American footbsll player at the Naval Academy and his extraordinary strength was a significant factor in keeping the cripple plane airborne. Petty Officer Corder recovered from his wounds, receiving a Purple Heart. VQ-1 records show DFC's were presented to the pilot and copliot, while Air Medals went to the remainder of the crew.

Where you and your comrades at Osan AB listening to this incident or in another reconnaissance aircraft over the peninsula?

imported_KnuckleDragger
06-16-2013, 02:54 PM
Might I suggest another title for your thread? Try using P4M-1Q Mercator Shoot Down

I think people will see “NSA Program” and think you are talking about the NSA surveillance program that is in the news lately.

Yup. This is the problem.

imported_KnuckleDragger
06-16-2013, 03:02 PM
It is my intention to discuss the current news about NSA surveillance on the Air Force Forums,not in the In The News Forum. I initially introduced the topic of current NSA surveillance with a roster of points made by a retired Air Force colonel.

Good job then :dunno:

Robert F. Dorr
06-16-2013, 03:07 PM
Might I suggest another title for your thread? Try using P4M-1Q Mercator Shoot Down

I think people will see “NSA Program” and think you are talking about the NSA surveillance program that is in the news lately.

I am familiar with the program you reference, generically it is known as Advisory Support or Threat Warning and it is a joint service program. It was called a number of different names during the course of the Cold War. I worked in a number of jobs related to that program and its later variations for a large part of my career.

Here is a short description of the of the shoot down you are referring to:

P4M-1Q BUNO
June 16, 1959, Aircraft was on a routine recce mission over the Sea of Japan off the North Korean coast. While the Mercator was at 7,000 ft off Wonsan, North Korea, two MIGs attacked with cannon fire. A few moments later, the tailgunner, 20 year old PO2 Eugene Corder, collapsed with more than 40 shrapnel wounds. Now totally unarmed, the Mercator continued to be attacked by the MIGs at LCDR Donald Mayer dove for the deck in an attempt to escape. By the time Mayer reached 50 ft altitude above the Sea of Japan , the P4M's two starboard engines and rudder had been shot away. On the way down the copilot. , LCDR Vince Anania, could see the Red Stars painted on the fuselages of the North Korean fighters as they made six more passes at the crippled P4M. The Mercator was barely able to limp back to Japan and make an emergency landing at Miho Air Base. LCDR Anania was a former all-American footbsll player at the Naval Academy and his extraordinary strength was a significant factor in keeping the cripple plane airborne. Petty Officer Corder recovered from his wounds, receiving a Purple Heart. VQ-1 records show DFC's were presented to the pilot and copliot, while Air Medals went to the remainder of the crew.

Where you and your comrades at Osan AB listing to this incident or in another reconnaissance aircraft over the peninsula?

It is my intention to discuss the current news about NSA surveillance on the Air Force Forums,not in the In The News Forum. I initially introduced the topic of current NSA surveillance with a roster of points made by a retired Air Force colonel.

I was not flying that day. I was on the ground, as were the four airmen I named.

imported_KnuckleDragger
06-16-2013, 03:25 PM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/029/364/failboat2.jpg?1318992465

imnohero
06-16-2013, 03:28 PM
What particularly is relevant about the NSA program to the AF (and thus the AF Forum) other than the comments were from a ret. AF col.?

Absinthe Anecdote
06-16-2013, 03:50 PM
What particularly is relevant about the NSA program to the AF (and thus the AF Forum) other than the comments were from a ret. AF col.?

I don't get the linkage to the attempted P4M-1Q shoot down in 1959 either. Other than they involved SIGINT programs, albeit very different ones separated by a space of 54 years.

While it is true that the Air Force maintains the largest Cryptologic Service Element, I would say this is not even the same subject.

Since today is the anniversary of the P4M-1Q incident, I suggest we talk about that. Tell us a little more about your buddies and how you felt that day. I would really like to hear about that; we can talk about the NSA crap that’s in the news some other time.

Robert F. Dorr
06-16-2013, 10:05 PM
What particularly is relevant about the NSA program to the AF (and thus the AF Forum) other than the comments were from a ret. AF col.?

What is? The fact that I suggested it as a topic. That's what is.

RobotChicken
06-16-2013, 10:08 PM
What is? The fact that I suggested it as a topic. That's what is.

"With all DUE respect to you 'RFD', I'll butt in.....;8 july,1967 the USS Liberty, 34 KIA, 174 WIA, Skipper AWARDED CMOH,purple heart! Many NSA officers attached to the Naval ship were killed at their 'duty stations' from a Israeli MTB the torpedo 'made in the USA'! Yes, it's relevant to a military forum."

Robert F. Dorr
06-16-2013, 10:11 PM
"With all DUE respect to you 'RFD', I'll butt in.....;8 july,1967 the USS Liberty, 34 KIA, 174 WIA, Skipper AWARDED CMOH,purple heart! Many NSA officers attached to the Naval ship were killed at their 'duty stations' from a Israeli MTB the torpedo 'made in the USA'! Yes, it's relevant to a military forum."

I don't get your point. I'm the one who wrote that the entire subject of NSA surveillance, including the current controversy, is suitable for this forum. The Liberty cover-up, the fraudulent award of the MOH (not CMOH) and the whole subject of U.S.-Israeli relations is equally suitable. Both topics belong here in "Air Force," not in "In the News." As for the DUE respect (emphasis in the original), I'm so weary of all this that I probably could use a little undue respect, too.

Robert F. Dorr
06-16-2013, 10:11 PM
I don't get the linkage to the attempted P4M-1Q shoot down in 1959 either. Other than they involved SIGINT programs, albeit very different ones separated by a space of 54 years.

While it is true that the Air Force maintains the largest Cryptologic Service Element, I would say this is not even the same subject.

Since today is the anniversary of the P4M-1Q incident, I suggest we talk about that. Tell us a little more about your buddies and how you felt that day. I would really like to hear about that; we can talk about the NSA crap that’s in the news some other time.

The post refers to a 1959 incident in which Air Force members, also called airmen, also called people in Air Force fatigues and flight suits. inducted into and serving in the Air Force, monitored for NSA an event involving a Navy aircraft that was engaged by a foreign air force while our own Air Force was listening. And you don't see a link, which you incorrectly call a linkage? Maybe it's because I forgot to mention EPRs, CBT, PT and reflective belts. On that day if we had been wearing reflective belts, which possibly had not been invented yet, maybe someone would see the links to the Air Force and to NSA. I'm further at fault for not mentioning the Airman's Creed although it, too, was yet to be invented on this date. And in case NSA is monitoring this post, here's more: bomb, jihad, gun, bang, explosion, kill, shoe, bop, underwear, bullet, ka-blooey, terror, ka-pow.

RobotChicken
06-16-2013, 10:41 PM
I don't get your point. I'm the one who wrote that the entire subject of NSA surveillance, including the current controversy, is suitable for this forum. The Liberty cover-up, the fraudulent award of the MOH (not CMOH) and the whole subject of U.S.-Israeli relations is equally suitable. Both topics belong here in "Air Force," not in "In the News." As for the DUE respect (emphasis in the original), I'm so weary of all this that I probably could use a little undue respect, too.

:smile:"Fine; your welcome. Won't happen again." 'RC.'

imnohero
06-16-2013, 11:47 PM
What is? The fact that I suggested it as a topic. That's what is.

Clearly not, or the forum admin wouldn't have moved your topic, twice.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-16-2013, 11:47 PM
The post refers to a 1959 incident in which Air Force members, also called airmen, also called people in Air Force fatigues and flight suits. inducted into and serving in the Air Force, monitored for NSA an event involving a Navy aircraft that was engaged by a foreign air force while our own Air Force was listening. And you don't see a link, which you incorrectly call a linkage? Maybe it's because I forgot to mention EPRs, CBT, PT and reflective belts. On that day if we had been wearing reflective belts, which possibly had not been invented yet, maybe someone would see the links to the Air Force and to NSA. I'm further at fault for not mentioning the Airman's Creed although it, too, was yet to be invented on this date. And in case NSA is monitoring this post, here's more: bomb, jihad, gun, bang, explosion, kill, shoe, bop, underwear, bullet, ka-blooey, terror, ka-pow.

link•age/lɪŋkɪdʒ/
noun
1. the act of linking; state or manner of being linked.
2. a system of links.
3. Genetics. an association between two or more genes on a chromosome that tends to cause the characteristics determined by these genes to be inherited as an inseparable unit.
4. Machinery . an assembly of four or more rods for transmitting motion, usually in the same plane or in parallel planes.
5. a factor or relationship that connects or ties one thing to another; link: Administration officials sought to establish linkage between grain sales and relaxed immigration laws.

With all undue respect, I disagree with you; there was nothing wrong with my use of the word linkage.

I also acknowledged that we have Air Force personnel involved in the collection, processing and analysis of SIGINT.

However, your original post referenced an incident 54 years ago in which Air Force personnel copied tactical air communications over VHF radios frequencies.

From my perspective, the modern day NSA program of collecting and processing internet traffic and cellular telephone metadata are worlds apart from the 1959 incident that you and your mates listened to. Your original post was very confusing because you failed to establish any linkage between the two subjects.

Nevertheless, I’d still like to hear about that day 54 years ago that you and your buddies listened to the North Koreans attempting to shoot down one of our reconnaissance planes.

Please tell us!

Robert F. Dorr
06-17-2013, 12:22 AM
link•age/lɪŋkɪdʒ/
noun
1. the act of linking; state or manner of being linked.
2. a system of links.
3. Genetics. an association between two or more genes on a chromosome that tends to cause the characteristics determined by these genes to be inherited as an inseparable unit.
4. Machinery . an assembly of four or more rods for transmitting motion, usually in the same plane or in parallel planes.
5. a factor or relationship that connects or ties one thing to another; link: Administration officials sought to establish linkage between grain sales and relaxed immigration laws.

With all undue respect, I disagree with you; there was nothing wrong with my use of the word linkage.

I also acknowledged that we have Air Force personnel involved in the collection, processing and analysis of SIGINT.

However, your original post referenced an incident 54 years ago in which Air Force personnel copied tactical air communications over VHF radios frequencies.

From my perspective, the modern day NSA program of collecting and processing internet traffic and cellular telephone metadata are worlds apart from the 1959 incident that you and your mates listened to. Your original post was very confusing because you failed to establish any linkage between the two subjects.

Nevertheless, I’d still like to hear about that day 54 years ago that you and your buddies listened to the North Koreans attempting to shoot down one of our reconnaissance planes.

Please tell us!

Your use of the word linkage is incorrect. Your own documentation says so.

Because of the dispute over where the NSA topic belongs and because my time has come and gone, I'm leaving these forums.

There isn't much else to say about my buddies and me and June 16, 1959. We were listening to radios. That's about it.

OtisRNeedleman
06-17-2013, 12:30 AM
Your use of the word linkage is incorrect. Your own documentation says so.

Because of the dispute over where the NSA topic belongs and because my time has come and gone, I'm leaving these forums.

There isn't much else to say about my buddies and me and June 16, 1959. We were listening to radios. That's about it.

And I believe that's as far as it should go. Let's keep OPSEC in mind, folks.

imnohero
06-17-2013, 01:02 AM
buh-bye now.

TwinkieToes
06-17-2013, 05:24 AM
And I believe that's as far as it should go. Let's keep OPSEC in mind, folks.

'Opsex is #1 in the military!'

TwinkieToes
06-17-2013, 06:09 AM
Sorry but i am a new user here..nsa???

Robert F. Dorr
06-17-2013, 04:16 PM
And I believe that's as far as it should go. Let's keep OPSEC in mind, folks.

I wasn't going to post again before my departure (prompted by the Administrator With No Name moving my NSA thread with no explanation). But because I love OtisRNeedleman and share stuff in common with him, I can't allow this idiocy to go unchallenged.

No amount of unclassified information, or information that is in the public domain for whatever reason, can be assembled to create something that is classified. It's preposterous to suggest that anything I know from duty in the Air Force which ended in 1960, could be a security issue today. Even so, in my many writings about this, of which Otis may be unaware, I have voluntarily refrained from discussing HOW WELL we did it, even though it was decades ago.

I don't have a security clearance today and wouldn't accept one if offered. I don't have access to classified information today. I've never signed a non-disclosure agreement. Remember, Otis, the default is, unless the government has a compelling justification to the contrary, all government information must be public.

My goal is to make this my next-to-last posting, ever, in this venue. In case NSA or Otis are paying attention, here are some words for Otis to key on: Eider, Froth, Daunt, Usher, Byeman, Pinlight, Talent, Keyhole, Comint, Ruff, Zarf, Umbra and Paragon. And here are some words for NSA to key on: vest, jihad, infidel, target, bang, shoe, zap, stab, TSA, virgins, boom, rat-tat-tat, and ka-pow. Especially ka-pow.

Friends, please keep in touch with me in the future: robert.f.dorr@cox.net (703) 264-8950. Please share this with NSA, which I hope and pray has nothing to do with the No Fly List.

Pullinteeth
06-17-2013, 04:45 PM
Mr. Dorr, the issue isn't that your topic isn't related to the AF...it is. It is that your article doesn't seem to have anything to do with the title of your thread. Generally your OP (original post) should have SOMETHING to do with the title of your thread. If you wanted to tie that incident to the current NSA issue, you are more than welcome to but the time to do so is in your first post....I still haven't seen you establish that link....

imported_KnuckleDragger
06-17-2013, 05:18 PM
Because of the dispute over where the NSA topic belongs and because my time has come and gone, I'm leaving these forums.


Where will you get quotes/info for your articles?

Luvnlife
06-17-2013, 07:39 PM
The Price of Vigilance by Larry Tart and Robert Keefe is a good book about a lot of the shootdowns during the Cold War. Sad that men were captured alive never to be heard from again.

wxjumper
06-17-2013, 08:06 PM
Worst thread title ever.

Bourne
06-19-2013, 03:34 PM
Please, stay on topic.

Pullinteeth
06-19-2013, 05:37 PM
Please, stay on topic.

How? The original post has nothing to do with the thread title. Are we to discuss the incident in the OP or the topic of the title?

TJMAC77SP
06-24-2013, 08:47 PM
I don't get your point. I'm the one who wrote that the entire subject of NSA surveillance, including the current controversy, is suitable for this forum. The Liberty cover-up, the fraudulent award of the MOH (not CMOH) and the whole subject of U.S.-Israeli relations is equally suitable. Both topics belong here in "Air Force," not in "In the News." As for the DUE respect (emphasis in the original), I'm so weary of all this that I probably could use a little undue respect, too.

Bob,

What did you mean by "fraudulent award of the MOH"?

(seriously curious and assuming you are still here)

imnohero
06-24-2013, 11:12 PM
Bob,

What did you mean by "fraudulent award of the MOH"?

(seriously curious and assuming you are still here)

Bob left last week, apparently for good. #post633927 (http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1596130-NSA-Program&p=633927#post633927)

imnohero
06-25-2013, 12:53 AM
Bob,

What did you mean by "fraudulent award of the MOH"?

(seriously curious and assuming you are still here)

Bob is gone, he left last week. Pretty sure he's not coming back.

Max Power
06-25-2013, 01:26 AM
http://i.imgur.com/OVjQman.jpg

TJMAC77SP
06-25-2013, 11:45 AM
http://i.imgur.com/OVjQman.jpg

Kids AND adults.

TJMAC77SP
06-25-2013, 11:59 AM
Bob is gone, he left last week. Pretty sure he's not coming back.

Interesting.................who will pimp his books now?

imnohero
06-25-2013, 12:08 PM
Frankly, I'm not sure why he stuck around as long as he did. His sole purpose of coming here was to create enough posts to move one thread off the top 10 of google results. Maybe it took this long?

RobotChicken
06-26-2013, 04:41 AM
Frankly, I'm not sure why he stuck around as long as he did. His sole purpose of coming here was to create enough posts to move one thread off the top 10 of google results. Maybe it took this long?

"And Your sole purpose of coming here was to belittle HIM? Sir; (and 'FA' I use that term loosely) ARE A SAD excuse of wasting air.)"

TJMAC77SP
06-26-2013, 11:43 AM
"And Your sole purpose of coming here was to belittle HIM? Sir; (and 'FA' I use that term loosely) ARE A SAD excuse of wasting air.)"

Actually he raised a good point. Bob himself raised the issue in a post asking about increasing visibility on Google.

imnohero
06-26-2013, 11:50 AM
Correction, it wasn't his "sole purpose", it was his first purpose. He also used the forum to get ideas and feedback for his writing. Well, until it was pointed out that by posting here, he lost his intellectual property rights to them.

RC, the feeling is mutual.

wxjumper
06-26-2013, 01:42 PM
Actually he raised a good point. Bob himself raised the issue in a post asking about increasing visibility on Google.
Let's start posting in that thread again to bring it back up on the google search results :madgrin

OtisRNeedleman
06-27-2013, 01:34 AM
Bob is gone, he left last week. Pretty sure he's not coming back.

I wonder why he left. He certainly posted an awful lot here. Guess posting here wasn't helping him to sell enough books.

RobotChicken
06-27-2013, 02:30 AM
Correction, it wasn't his "sole purpose", it was his first purpose. He also used the forum to get ideas and feedback for his writing. Well, until it was pointed out that by posting here, he lost his intellectual property rights to them.

RC, the feeling is mutual.

"Respect your elders, that is all!" (sorry if I defend them from 'Wipper snappers)

imnohero
06-27-2013, 03:20 AM
Elders that deserve respect get it. Those that don't, don't.

Robert F. Dorr
06-27-2013, 02:51 PM
Where will you get quotes/info for your articles?

I might have to actually talk to someone in the Air Force.

Robert F. Dorr
06-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Correction, it wasn't his "sole purpose", it was his first purpose. He also used the forum to get ideas and feedback for his writing. Well, until it was pointed out that by posting here, he lost his intellectual property rights to them.

RC, the feeling is mutual.

The height of silliness. My participation in this forum began as an effort to give a different perspective to critics of the opinion column. It continued as a mean of getting ideas and feedback for writing. There is no intellectual property issue in this venue. Over time, the forum also became something of a minor addiction. As for books, almost everyone knows by now that all of my proceeds from books go to charity and, yes, I do want people to know about them and to read about the men in them.

TJMAC77SP
06-27-2013, 03:09 PM
Bob, what did you mean by "fraudulent award of the MOH"? I believe you were referring to CDR William McGonagle but didn’t understand the characterization.