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CommunityEditor
06-03-2013, 07:12 PM
From reflective belts to taking time off, there are some regulations airmen voice their opinions about regularly.

What rules do you think need changing? How would you go about changing them?

Post your responses here, or send them to dsorlie@airforcetimes.com. Your comments may be used in an upcoming story.

Banned
06-03-2013, 07:19 PM
I think the Air Force should become an actual military branch.


*RUNS*

JD2780
06-03-2013, 07:26 PM
I think the Air Force should become an actual military branch.


*RUNS*

You're not far off JB.

Crews rest for JTACs when not deployed.

Hats being able to stick out of pockets, I've had many Romads get harassed for having their PC stick out of their pocket.

Allow TACPs the option to wear their aligned Army unit patches on the ABU. We had a tradition of wearing them then the AF scrapped its tradition to make a tradition.

Allow JTACs to wear the graduate patch when done with the advanced instructor course, since its aligned with weapons school.

Yes, my comments are TACP related because that's the world I know.

sandsjames
06-03-2013, 07:44 PM
I think the Air Force should become an actual military branch.


*RUNS*

I think the Air Force should become, or return to, being "less" of a military branch. It should quit trying to play Army (poorly) and stick to what we're good at.

JD2780
06-03-2013, 07:48 PM
I think the Air Force should become, or return to, being "less" of a military branch. It should quit trying to play Army (poorly) and stick to what we're good at.

Yet it should still act like a military branch but it can't even do that. Go to AUAB, it's a crappy summer camp.

Chief_KO
06-03-2013, 08:03 PM
1. Either "legalize" exec positions at the wing, group, squadron level (to include the command chief's exec) by creating a special duty identifier and billet or eliminate them all-together. Currently they are filled "out of hide" by subordinate units (usually on a rotating basis). They are sold as a "career broadening" opportunity, and while I agree to some extent, justify the manpower requirement and make it a funded position.
2. Eliminate stratification statements on SNCO EPRs. Way too much time wasted on this process. Don't the markings on the front side and the ranking on the back provide a method of discriminating the top performer worthy of promotion consideration?
3. Synchronize the EPR cut off to each ranks' respective Promotion Eligibility Cutoff Date (PECD). This single, simple change (which would probably take a few years to implement in stages) would put a huge dent in EPR inflation (easy to rank your Airmen as 3, 4, 5 when they all close out the same time), decrease the overall admin burden (the sheer volume of reports would greatly reduce the amount of wordsmithing and "happy" to "glad" changes), and would eliminate the "CRO EPR" dance (when units change reporting officials to generate a new EPR to improve someone's promotability).
4. Serious review of organizational structure. Do we need this many GOs? Do we need all the NAFs? (Seriously, my last 2 assignments the only time I had to engage my NAF was for annual awards...never once in 4 years received any guidance or information) Do we need both FOAs and MAJCOM A-staffs? (Seems redundant and are often in conflict). Cut out the unneeded overhead, return the $ (manpower, funding, etc.) to the field!

UH1FE
06-03-2013, 09:16 PM
Allow aircrew to where ABU's made of NOMEX while flying. I am a flyer and I hate flight suits! They are hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I dont sit in an ejection seat so why can't I wear a much cooler two piece fire retardent uniform. Im not a fighter pilot, I dont mind looking like the rest of the Air Force.

Chief_KO
06-03-2013, 09:25 PM
Allow aircrew to where ABU's made of NOMEX while flying. I am a flyer and I hate flight suits! Im not a fighter pilot, I dont mind looking like the rest of the Air Force.

Tread carefully UH1FE...the flight suit mafia might get you. While I may not be 100% certain, you are the first flight suit wearer I ever remember making that statement.

RobotChicken
06-03-2013, 09:29 PM
:cool:I thought 'flight suits' were COOL all the time;even on the 'beach'! (ashore to my AF friends) :beerchug:

DWWSWWD
06-03-2013, 09:42 PM
1. Either "legalize" exec positions at the wing, group, squadron level (to include the command chief's exec) by creating a special duty identifier and billet or eliminate them all-together. Currently they are filled "out of hide" by subordinate units (usually on a rotating basis). They are sold as a "career broadening" opportunity, and while I agree to some extent, justify the manpower requirement and make it a funded position.
2. Eliminate stratification statements on SNCO EPRs. Way too much time wasted on this process. Don't the markings on the front side and the ranking on the back provide a method of discriminating the top performer worthy of promotion consideration?
3. Synchronize the EPR cut off to each ranks' respective Promotion Eligibility Cutoff Date (PECD). This single, simple change (which would probably take a few years to implement in stages) would put a huge dent in EPR inflation (easy to rank your Airmen as 3, 4, 5 when they all close out the same time), decrease the overall admin burden (the sheer volume of reports would greatly reduce the amount of wordsmithing and "happy" to "glad" changes), and would eliminate the "CRO EPR" dance (when units change reporting officials to generate a new EPR to improve someone's promotability).
4. Serious review of organizational structure. Do we need this many GOs? Do we need all the NAFs? (Seriously, my last 2 assignments the only time I had to engage my NAF was for annual awards...never once in 4 years received any guidance or information) Do we need both FOAs and MAJCOM A-staffs? (Seems redundant and are often in conflict). Cut out the unneeded overhead, return the $ (manpower, funding, etc.) to the field! What is this "like" thing and how the hell do you do it? i agree with all. We just don't have enough folks to be broadening people as a CCM exec, protocol, XP, CAGs etc. I am not opposed to strats in principle. I've been a player in the strat game in several different wings and the badness has outweighed the good. On paper, it is a way to quickly identify a player that has the most ability to serve in the next higher grade. I've seen it used as a silver bullet because a guy has only one more chance to test. Just keeping it real here, bake sales do play a part. This is a CCM run program and each does it differently. I've seen it done right at two operationally centric units but as a whole, I hate it. It would be marginally better if everyone's EPR closed adjacent to the PECD. Not sure why we don't do that though there is no money to be saved.

JD2780
06-03-2013, 10:53 PM
Allow aircrew to where ABU's made of NOMEX while flying. I am a flyer and I hate flight suits! They are hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I dont sit in an ejection seat so why can't I where a much cooler two piece fire retardent uniform. Im not a fighter pilot, I dont mind looking like the rest of the Air Force.

You just spoke against the family!!! Watch out for horse heads. I like you though.

Robert F. Dorr
06-03-2013, 11:56 PM
You're not far off JB.

Crews rest for JTACs when not deployed.

Hats being able to stick out of pockets, I've had many Romads get harassed for having their PC stick out of their pocket.

Allow TACPs the option to wear their aligned Army unit patches on the ABU. We had a tradition of wearing them then the AF scrapped its tradition to make a tradition.

Allow JTACs to wear the graduate patch when done with the advanced instructor course, since its aligned with weapons school.

Yes, my comments are TACP related because that's the world I know.

This is the kind of comment that would be of real interest if it were written in English. I understand it. I get the meaning. I know all of the abbreviations except PC. I would love it if you would sit down, re-phrase, and elaborate on these comments. I especially like the idea of wearing aligned Army unit patches.

efmbman
06-04-2013, 12:03 AM
Allow TACPs the option to wear their aligned Army unit patches on the ABU. We had a tradition of wearing them then the AF scrapped its tradition to make a tradition.

When I was with the 28th Combat Support Hospital, Fort Bragg, we had Air Force personnel assigned to us from Pope next door. They were with us to be liaisons with the MEDEVAC and the MASF. They were allowed to wear the 44th Medical Brigade patch and we did not mind one bit - we considered them a valuable part of the team. I second this suggestion.

jondstewart
06-04-2013, 12:11 AM
Let Airmen be young men and women who want to have a good time and need to learn from their mistakes, stop treating the single Airmen living in the dorms like children and let them have parties if they want to! And let them have alcohol and smoke. If they get out of control or do something stupid, everybody gets punished with a room and full dress uniform inspection! Not sure about now, but back in the day if you were an E4 or below that had been in less than 4 years and wanted to live off base with the BAH, there was only one way to get it: marriage!

As for deployments, OMG, let them have booze, for Chrissakes! Afghanistan does have liquor in certain places and Saudi Arabia had the Usimitum, or something called that. But limit it to two a day, like Kyrgyzstan. I was at Diego Garcia in 2003 and there was no limit there, but so many of the younger troops got out of control with it.

Also with deployments, let them wear their own clothing off-duty! I assume the Air Force PT uniform is still the same as when I retired 3 years ago, but whoever invented it and designed it should be shot! And having to wear your PT gear just to get up and go take a leak during the night? Some people walked around in their bathrobes and flashed people and nobody thought anything of it!

Reflector belts? Another standard whoever made it up should be shot!

UH1FE
06-04-2013, 12:15 AM
You just spoke against the family!!! Watch out for horse heads. I like you though.

I fly on helicopter so we are already the bastards of the Air Force. If you ask almost anyone on helicopters they will all say the same thing. The only airconditioning we have is that fancy fan on top and it dont help much. As an enlisted person we alway say we are allowed to enter the flight suit club but we are not allowed to be members.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 12:18 AM
:smashfreakB:'Piss Cutter' BOB! :banana:

In the past was called a CC.

RobotChicken
06-04-2013, 12:18 AM
This is the kind of comment that would be of real interest if it were written in English. I understand it. I get the meaning. I know all of the abbreviations except PC. I would love it if you would sit down, re-phrase, and elaborate on these comments. I especially like the idea of wearing aligned Army unit patches.
:smashfreakB:'Piss Cutter' BOB! :banana:

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 12:21 AM
I fly on helicopter so we are already the bastards of the Air Force. If you ask almost anyone on helicopters they will all say the same thing. The only airconditioning we have is that fancy fan on top and it dont help much. As an enlisted person we always say we are allowed to enter the flight suit club but we are not allowed to be members.

Have written about this a lot. Would like to hear more details. Any structural fatigue issues with the HH-60G? Or concerns about range? Any concern about the inability of the Air Force to come up with a new combat rescue helicopter? Your thoughts about a UH-1N replacement?

UH1FE
06-04-2013, 12:24 AM
You just spoke against the family!!! Watch out for horse heads. I like you though.

I fly on helicopter so we are already the bastards of the Air Force. If you ask almost anyone on helicopters they will all say the same thing. The only airconditioning we have is that fancy fan on top and it dont help much. As an enlisted person we always say we are allowed to enter the flight suit club but we are not allowed to be members.

ChiefB
06-04-2013, 12:55 AM
From reflective belts to taking time off, there are some regulations airmen voice their opinions about regularly.

What rules do you think need changing? How would you go about changing them?

Post your responses here, or send them to dsorlie@airforcetimes.com. Your comments may be used in an upcoming story.

See: http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1595963-Changing-the-rules

JD2780
06-04-2013, 01:53 AM
When I was with the 28th Combat Support Hospital, Fort Bragg, we had Air Force personnel assigned to us from Pope next door. They were with us to be liaisons with the MEDEVAC and the MASF. They were allowed to wear the 44th Medical Brigade patch and we did not mind one bit - we considered them a valuable part of the team. I second this suggestion.

Now they can't because the AF screwed it up.

RFScott
06-04-2013, 01:54 AM
Yet it should still act like a military branch but it can't even do that. Go to AUAB, it's a crappy summer camp.

I kind of felt like that was the attitude a lot of airmen when I deployed in 2010.....it seemed like a summer camp. I was assigned to support an Army unit, but we were still included on all of the neighboring "Big Blue" camp's e-mail distro lists. At first the amount of e-mails I would receive about 5-6/Top 3/First 4 meetings was comical, then it became just irritating as I would come into the JOC and have to sift through e-mail after e-mail about ice cream socials, movie nights, and basketball games. To make matters worse, people would reply to all in their correspondence...further clogging my inbox with non-mission related crap. Needless to say, it did not take long before filters were created.

JD2780
06-04-2013, 02:01 AM
I kind of felt like that was the attitude a lot of airmen when I deployed in 2010.....it seemed like a summer camp. I was assigned to support an Army unit, but we were still included on all of the neighboring "Big Blue" camp's e-mail distro lists. At first the amount of e-mails I would receive about 5-6/Top 3/First 4 meetings was comical, then it became just irritating as I would come into the JOC and have to sift through e-mail after e-mail about ice cream socials, movie nights, and basketball games. To make matters worse, people would reply to all in their correspondence...further clogging my inbox with non-mission related crap. Needless to say, it did not take long before filters were created.

Thank you for making my point. We've gone from a good service component to this. Sad. Deploy to AUAB tell people about your deployment and collecting HFP while attending an icecream social.

imported_DannyJ
06-04-2013, 02:41 AM
Thank you for making my point. We've gone from a good service component to this. Sad. Deploy to AUAB tell people about your deployment and collecting HFP while attending an icecream social.

I was in Honor Guard in ASAB. If we have time for that kind of shit, we have too many people deployed.

20+Years
06-04-2013, 01:51 PM
When I deployed to PSAB back in the day, we were told on day one that only a certain perentage of folks would get medals. Those folks would be the ones who did extra-curricular activities, and leading them at that.

About half-way through my deployment my Flight Chief (MSgt) rolled up on me and asked why I wasn't more involved off-duty and not trying for a medal. I just told him plain and simple I wasn't interested. I did my job to my very best, and after work I decompressed in my own way. He seemed irritated, lol.

20+Years
06-04-2013, 01:54 PM
Oh, and as for rules that should be changed...

Pilots should be allowed to wear sunglasses on thier head in the BX. That way, they can quit being pissy when I tell them they need to remove them. Until then...

technomage1
06-04-2013, 02:42 PM
It's not really a rule...but most commanders give 1 day passes for a 90 or above score in PT. However, if you qualify as expert on your duty weapon(s) - you get nothing (aside from the marksmanship ribbon the first time you do it, which is certainly nice).

It's not even a metric they track anywhere. You can be overdue on your weapon qual and no one cares unless you're deploying. Not so with PT.

I just think it's interesting the emphasis on one and not the other.

CrustySMSgt
06-04-2013, 02:56 PM
Oh, and as for rules that should be changed...

Pilots should be allowed to wear sunglasses on thier head in the BX. That way, they can quit being pissy when I tell them they need to remove them. Until then...

I've all but given up here... I could literally spend all day every day policing uniform issues, and yes 90% of it is the ops folks. I really hate rolling over and giving up the fight, but I can only take so many eye rolls, sighs, and holier-than-thou attitudes and I've already hit my peak.

SomeRandomGuy
06-04-2013, 03:01 PM
It's not really a rule...but most commanders give 1 day passes for a 90 or above score in PT. However, if you qualify as expert on your duty weapon(s) - you get nothing (aside from the marksmanship ribbon the first time you do it, which is certainly nice).

It's not even a metric they track anywhere. You can be overdue on your weapon qual and no one cares unless you're deploying. Not so with PT.

I just think it's interesting the emphasis on one and not the other.

Well, If shit hits the fan are we going to RUN or FIGHT? I think we know the answer. :outtahere:

sandsjames
06-04-2013, 03:25 PM
Well, If shit hits the fan are we going to RUN or FIGHT? I think we know the answer. :outtahere:

Yes, but most likely I'll only need to sprint about 100 yards to get behind cover. I'm no Forrest Gump.

Measure Man
06-04-2013, 03:30 PM
It's not really a rule...but most commanders give 1 day passes for a 90 or above score in PT. However, if you qualify as expert on your duty weapon(s) - you get nothing (aside from the marksmanship ribbon the first time you do it, which is certainly nice).

It's not even a metric they track anywhere. You can be overdue on your weapon qual and no one cares unless you're deploying. Not so with PT.

I just think it's interesting the emphasis on one and not the other.

Excellent example.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 03:32 PM
It's not really a rule...but most commanders give 1 day passes for a 90 or above score in PT. However, if you qualify as expert on your duty weapon(s) - you get nothing (aside from the marksmanship ribbon the first time you do it, which is certainly nice).

It's not even a metric they track anywhere. You can be overdue on your weapon qual and no one cares unless you're deploying. Not so with PT.

I just think it's interesting the emphasis on one and not the other.

I really, really love this. Would love to find someone i can quote (probably without identifying the person) on this. Would like to learn more about what the Air Force expects in weapons qualification. Info, please? Abbreviations? No.

VFFTSGT
06-04-2013, 03:44 PM
I kind of felt like that was the attitude a lot of airmen when I deployed in 2010.....it seemed like a summer camp. I was assigned to support an Army unit, but we were still included on all of the neighboring "Big Blue" camp's e-mail distro lists. At first the amount of e-mails I would receive about 5-6/Top 3/First 4 meetings was comical, then it became just irritating as I would come into the JOC and have to sift through e-mail after e-mail about ice cream socials, movie nights, and basketball games. To make matters worse, people would reply to all in their correspondence...further clogging my inbox with non-mission related crap. Needless to say, it did not take long before filters were created.

I see you did it but more should learn to set up rules in outlook.

I have a rule setup to permanently delete all emails containing: Attic, Prayer, Top III, Top 3, Volunteer, 5/6, AADD, Club, or Booster.

This has drastically reduced the amount of email I receive.

20+Years
06-04-2013, 03:54 PM
Ok Bob... weapons qualifications for Medical. You only have to qualify before you deploy or PCS to an overseas location. You can shoot as many times as needed to do so, but the shooting instructors will "help" you get qualified if needed.

You may have only handled a gun that 4 hours of training in 10 years, then you can deploy, have a weapon shoved into your hands (may not be the same model you trained on), and be expected to be proficient. Feel safer?

VFFTSGT
06-04-2013, 04:03 PM
Ok Bob... weapons qualifications for Medical. You only have to qualify before you deploy or PCS to an overseas location. You can shoot as many times as needed to do so, but the shooting instructors will "help" you get qualified if needed.

You may have only handled a gun that 4 hours of training in 10 years, then you can deploy, have a weapon shoved into your hands (may not be the same model you trained on), and be expected to be proficient. Feel safer?

At least we saved money by not having recurring weapons training and the Air Force trained you to be "Fit to Fight" so you can run after you fail with your weapon.

Zxc
06-04-2013, 04:12 PM
I really, really love this. Would love to find someone i can quote (probably without identifying the person) on this. Would like to learn more about what the Air Force expects in weapons qualification. Info, please? Abbreviations? No.

You might be interested in AFI 36-2226, "Combat Arms Program". That should answer most of your questions

Zxc
06-04-2013, 04:15 PM
Ok Bob... weapons qualifications for Medical. You only have to qualify before you deploy or PCS to an overseas location. You can shoot as many times as needed to do so, but the shooting instructors will "help" you get qualified if needed.

You may have only handled a gun that 4 hours of training in 10 years, then you can deploy, have a weapon shoved into your hands (may not be the same model you trained on), and be expected to be proficient. Feel safer?

Yep.

There's also "Arming groups" depending on your AFS/assignment that determines how often you need to qualify and how much you need to score. The scoring system is changing around quite a bit lately so I can't give you good numbers, but basically there's a pass/fail/expert criteria, and unlike PT hitting a perfect score or a bare minimum is met w/ the same fanfare and enthusiasm (or lack thereof)

It is a hard requirement, but there's not strict guidelines on how to re-test that I'm aware of. We start CATM at 0530 to allow shooters to do remedial qualification the same day if they fail. Other bases I've been to rescheduled you for the next class, usually weeks later.

We had one guy that had to qualify for his annual, and he failed four times. He had to meet with the commander with his supervisor and they discussed administrative separation if we was unable to qualify on the next go

DWWSWWD
06-04-2013, 04:16 PM
We had one guy that had to qualify for his annual, and he failed four times. He had to meet with the commander with his supervisor and they discussed administrative separation if we was unable to qualify on the next go This pisses me off. Generally speaking, you are either a good shot or you aren't. We don't do anything to close the gap. Can't afford and don't really require it. I was part of a unit where we were we had paid memberships to an indoor range and were allowed to sign out our weapons (pistols only) and ammo and go shoot. We also had our own military ranges and could go shoot anytime we wanted. If one of our teammates couldn't qualify, I coud see where he would bear some responsibility. The way we do it in big blue is akin to giving someone a few hours of singing lessons and judging their ability to sing.

Measure Man
06-04-2013, 04:20 PM
It's not really a rule...but most commanders give 1 day passes for a 90 or above score in PT. However, if you qualify as expert on your duty weapon(s) - you get nothing (aside from the marksmanship ribbon the first time you do it, which is certainly nice).

It's not even a metric they track anywhere. You can be overdue on your weapon qual and no one cares unless you're deploying. Not so with PT.

I just think it's interesting the emphasis on one and not the other.

Excellent example...says so much about our AF.

Zxc
06-04-2013, 04:59 PM
The AF breaks you into what are called Arming Groups, A or B based on your AFSC (air force specialty code, or your job). Group A is Security Forces, CE, and battlefield airmen (combat rescue, combat control, tactical air control, etc). Group A must fire every 12 months. AFI 36-2226 paragraph 5.5.1 tells more, but that's it in a nutshell.

Group B is personnel who are not armed in garrison and are only armed for contingencies. They only qualify when identified to fill a deployment billet.

Since I'm a CE troop, I'm in Group A and fire the Air Force Qualification Course (AFQC) with an M4, which consists of what they call table 1 and table 2. Now these aren't publically available but it consists of firing to zero the weapon with the optical and iron sights, firing practice rounds of over barricade, kneeling supported, prone supported, prone unsupported, and with a gas mask on kneeling supported. You wear a helment and plated vest too. Then you shoot the same with the optical sight only for qualification. 17/25 rounds hitting the silloutes is a passing score, 22 out of 25 is expert.

Then you shoot table 2, which consists of a body silloute target with the head and two areas on the body circled and labeled. You follow the instructions as to what to shoot - for example, they could tell you to take a step to the right and empty your magazine on burst at target II. It's supposed to stimulate battlefield conditions. All of these are standing shots. This isn't graded but does familiarize you with what it feels like, which is really, really usefull.

Now, I've already said I'm group A since I'm CE, so I'm supposed to qualify every 12 months. It only happens if the member pushes it, deploys, or PCSs (Permanent Change of Station). Members can and do slip through the cracks since the wing does not track this as a metric, unlike PT or dental status. In case anyone is wondering why CE is in group A, we do our own work party security, out of the wire convoys, etc. Provincial Reconstruction Teams, or PRTs, have come under real world fire in Afghanistan, for example. Something like 21 engineers have died in combat so far.

Despite this, I've never seen a CE commander - ever - recognize marksmanship in any way. It's not like PT at all, where as I noted before an excellent score earns you a day pass, or a 100% a three day pass in some places.

You can tell in classes who is in group A and who isn't, based on their scores and ease with the weapon. Classes go a lot faster when CE is in them. God help you if it's all comm or something because they only touch it once in a blue moon. Practice matters. Someone else said you can't teach someone to improve. I don't agree. I've gotten better every year pretty much - and I'm near sighted (wear glasss) and right handed-left eye dominant. Both these make it harder to shoot but I've moved from the bottom of the pack to expert with practice and applying the fundamentals they teach you in class. And I only shoot on AF ranges, I'm not doing this on my own time.

Maybe SFS or battlefied airmen recognize marksmanship, I don't know. I kind of hope so. For all of us in Group A it should be important. And I do think group B should be firing a lot more than they do, say once every 2 years. Think of the transportation troop on convoy duty, for example.

Damn right you can teach someone how to improve! Though, some issues are more physical than just not doing the fundamentals. The old qualification on M-16 with iron sights was difficult for me because by the time I got through the 'practice' rounds, my eyes were so fatigued that I'd do worse and barely qualify. Now that we shoot M-4 with the M-68 attachment it's a breeze and I've shot expert my last 4 times... I felt like a total noob with the M-9 last month though since I'd never handled one or even seen one up close, but since they put the targets so close to you with that I was still able to get expert. My CE commander was in the class with me and I don't think he said a word to me when they announced the 'expert' shooters

technomage1
06-04-2013, 04:59 PM
I really, really love this. Would love to find someone i can quote (probably without identifying the person) on this. Would like to learn more about what the Air Force expects in weapons qualification. Info, please? Abbreviations? No.


The AF breaks you into what are called Arming Groups, A or B based on your AFSC (air force specialty code, or your job). Group A is Security Forces, CE, and battlefield airmen (combat rescue, combat control, tactical air control, etc). Group A must fire every 12 months. AFI 36-2226 paragraph 5.5.1 tells more, but that's it in a nutshell.

Group B is personnel who are not armed in garrison and are only armed for contingencies. They only qualify when identified to fill a deployment billet.

Since I'm a CE troop, I'm in Group A and fire the Air Force Qualification Course (AFQC) with an M4, which consists of what they call table 1 and table 2. Now these aren't publically available but it consists of firing to zero the weapon with the optical and iron sights, firing practice rounds of over barricade, kneeling supported, prone supported, prone unsupported, and with a gas mask on kneeling supported. You wear a helment and plated vest too. Then you shoot the same with the optical sight only for qualification. 17/25 rounds hitting the silloutes is a passing score, 22 out of 25 is expert.

Then you shoot table 2, which consists of a body silloute target with the head and two areas on the body circled and labeled. You follow the instructions as to what to shoot - for example, they could tell you to take a step to the right and empty your magazine on burst at target II. It's supposed to simulate battlefield conditions. All of these are standing shots. This isn't graded but does familiarize you with what it feels like, which is really, really usefull.

Now, I've already said I'm group A since I'm CE, so I'm supposed to qualify every 12 months. It only happens if the member pushes it, deploys, or PCSs (Permanent Change of Station). Members can and do slip through the cracks since the wing does not track this as a metric, unlike PT or dental status. In case anyone is wondering why CE is in group A, we do our own work party security, out of the wire convoys, etc. Provincial Reconstruction Teams, or PRTs, have come under real world fire in Afghanistan, for example. Something like 21 engineers have died in combat so far.

Despite this, I've never seen a CE commander - ever - recognize marksmanship in any way. It's not like PT at all, where as I noted before an excellent score earns you a day pass, or a 100% a three day pass in some places.

You can tell in classes who is in group A and who isn't, based on their scores and ease with the weapon. Classes go a lot faster when CE is in them. God help you if it's all comm or something because they only touch it once in a blue moon. Practice matters. Someone else said you can't teach someone to improve. I don't agree. I've gotten better every year pretty much - and I'm near sighted (wear glasses) and right handed-left eye dominant. Both these make it harder to shoot but I've moved from the bottom of the pack to expert with practice and applying the fundamentals they teach you in class. And I only shoot on AF ranges, I'm not doing this on my own time.

Maybe SFS or battlefied airmen recognize marksmanship, I don't know. I kind of hope so. For all of us in Group A it should be important. And I do think group B should be firing a lot more than they do, say once every 2 years. Think of the transportation troop on convoy duty, for example.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 05:02 PM
This is really great stuff. What's a CE?

JD2780
06-04-2013, 05:03 PM
This is really great stuff. What's a CE?

Civil engineering.

JD2780
06-04-2013, 05:05 PM
However, shooting a small target at 25m isn't the same as shooting a target at 250 meters. Many guys I know actually went shooting schools. Both CCT and TACP go to many different schools, perhaps not so much anymore though.

VFFTSGT
06-04-2013, 05:14 PM
...
You can tell in classes who is in group A and who isn't, based on their scores and ease with the weapon. Classes go a lot faster when CE is in them. God help you if it's all comm or something because they only touch it once in a blue moon. Practice matters. Someone else said you can't teach someone to improve. I don't agree. I've gotten better every year pretty much - and I'm near sighted (wear glasses) and right handed-left eye dominant. Both these make it harder to shoot but I've moved from the bottom of the pack to expert with practice and applying the fundamentals they teach you in class. And I only shoot on AF ranges, I'm not doing this on my own time.

Maybe SFS or battlefied airmen recognize marksmanship, I don't know. I kind of hope so. For all of us in Group A it should be important. And I do think group B should be firing a lot more than they do, say once every 2 years. Think of the transportation troop on convoy duty, for example.

All that COD playing doesn't help?!

Why you got to generalize...some people have their own weapons and fire all the time!

Bob - Civil Engineer

JD2780
06-04-2013, 05:16 PM
However, shooting a small target at 25m isn't the same as shooting a target at 250 meters. Many guys I know actually went shooting schools. Both CCT and TACP go to many different schools, perhaps not so much anymore though.

20+Years
06-04-2013, 06:35 PM
Bob... do you know there is an approved AF (Air Force) and DOD (Department of Defense) acronym guide? We might have to xerox you one for Christmas. I'd imagine I could e-mail (electronic mail) it to you, but I'm not sure how proficient you are with attachments.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 06:36 PM
Just because you don't celebrate Christmas doesn't mean we can't send you a gift. Hell, I'm not Jewish but if you wish to send me gifts for 8 days I'll be more than happy to accept them.

AADD isn't in it, by the way.

I have the perfect gift for you. Send me your address and I'll send it to you.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 06:36 PM
Just because you don't celebrate Christmas doesn't mean we can't send you a gift. Hell, I'm not Jewish but if you wish to send me gifts for 8 days I'll be more than happy to accept them.

AADD isn't in it, by the way.

I have the perfect gift for you. Send me your address and I'll send it to you.

grimreaper
06-04-2013, 06:37 PM
Just because you don't celebrate Christmas doesn't mean we can't send you a gift. Hell, I'm not Jewish but if you wish to send me gifts for 8 days I'll be more than happy to accept them.

You can always give Bob a "Happy Kwanzaa" gift too.

imported_WILDJOKER5
06-04-2013, 06:38 PM
We dont need hats all the time.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 06:38 PM
Bob... do you know there is an approved AF (Air Force) and DOD (Department of Defense) acronym guide? We might have to xerox you one for Christmas. I'd imagine I could e-mail (electronic mail) it to you, but I'm not sure how proficient you are with attachments.

I have it here. It includes abbreviations in addition to acronyms. I already know most of them. I'm thinking of the occasional reader looking for insights into the Air Force. Moreover, no matter how good the guide is, it will not tell me a writer's intent.

I do not celebrate Christmas.

sandsjames
06-04-2013, 06:42 PM
However, shooting a small target at 25m isn't the same as shooting a target at 250 meters. Many guys I know actually went shooting schools. Both CCT and TACP go to many different schools, perhaps not so much anymore though.

The new course is quite a bit more in depth. Still not adequate, but better than before.

sandsjames
06-04-2013, 06:43 PM
I have it here. It includes abbreviations in addition to acronyms. I already know most of them. I'm thinking of the occasional reader looking for insights into the Air Force. Moreover, no matter how good the guide is, it will not tell me a writer's intent.

I do not celebrate Christmas.

Just because you don't celebrate Christmas doesn't mean we can't send you a gift. Hell, I'm not Jewish but if you wish to send me gifts for 8 days I'll be more than happy to accept them.

grimreaper
06-04-2013, 06:48 PM
Just because you don't celebrate Christmas doesn't mean we can't send you a gift. Hell, I'm not Jewish but if you wish to send me gifts for 8 days I'll be more than happy to accept them.

You can always give Bob a "Happy Kwanzaa" gift too.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 06:51 PM
Jeeze Bob, it was a light-hearted offer, ya don't have to bite my head off. Maybe we need to send you to war for us.

You consider THAT biting your head off? I thought I was being friendly.

20+Years
06-04-2013, 06:52 PM
I have it here. It includes abbreviations in addition to acronyms. I already know most of them. I'm thinking of the occasional reader looking for insights into the Air Force. Moreover, no matter how good the guide is, it will not tell me a writer's intent.

I do not celebrate Christmas.


Jeeze Bob, it was a light-hearted offer, ya don't have to bite my head off. Maybe we need to send you to war for us.

technomage1
06-04-2013, 07:00 PM
All that COD playing doesn't help?!

Why you got to generalize...some people have their own weapons and fire all the time!

Bob - Civil Engineer

No to the CoD. Not the same, I wish it was. I'd be a sniper by now. Lol

Some people do have their own weapons and fire, most do not. And that's fine. I don't either. The AF should be repsonsible for providing the weapon, time, and materials for maintenance and improvement (if necessary) of skills, not the member. If I only handled the weapon once in a great while, I'd be still in the barely passing group.

Robert F. Dorr
06-04-2013, 07:02 PM
Jeeze Bob, it was a light-hearted offer, ya don't have to bite my head off. Maybe we need to send you to war for us.

You consider THAT biting your head off? I thought I was being friendly.

technomage1
06-04-2013, 07:15 PM
This is really great stuff. What's a CE?

Others have answered, it's Civil Engineer. But I forgot to tell you the course also consists of 3 hours of classroom instruction too, then you shoot. The instruction covers nomenclature, field stripping and function checking, and proper shooting fundatmentals.

technomage1
06-04-2013, 07:40 PM
We had one guy that had to qualify for his annual, and he failed four times. He had to meet with the commander with his supervisor and they discussed administrative separation if we was unable to qualify on the next go

Wonder if he had vision issues? Or physcological (afraid of the weapon)?

VFFTSGT
06-04-2013, 08:21 PM
No to the CoD. Not the same, I wish it was. I'd be a sniper by now. Lol

Some people do have their own weapons and fire, most do not. And that's fine. I don't either. The AF should be repsonsible for providing the weapon, time, and materials for maintenance and improvement (if necessary) of skills, not the member. If I only handled the weapon once in a great while, I'd be still in the barely passing group.

lol...just saying, not everyone is comm is a computer geek. :biggrin

20+Years
06-04-2013, 08:42 PM
You consider THAT biting your head off? I thought I was being friendly.

Yes I consider that biting my head off. Remember, we are Air Force in here. Feelings can get hurt rather easily.

technomage1
06-04-2013, 09:00 PM
lol...just saying, not everyone is comm is a computer geek. :biggrin

Oh, I agree. It's the same with mx or medical or anyone who doesn't fire routinely. I just happened to pick comm as an example out of the bunch, probably because I fired with them the last time. No other reason, wasn't trying to imply anything further.

RobotChicken
06-05-2013, 05:36 AM
:clock WAIT!! I thought EVERYONE in the AF was a 007 agent!!:closed_2

JD2780
06-05-2013, 11:59 AM
:clock WAIT!! I thought EVERYONE in the AF was a 007 agent!!:closed_2

That's only if you ask their wives or girlfriends.

Robert F. Dorr
06-05-2013, 12:11 PM
That's only if you ask their wife's or girlfriends.

wife's?

Grammar Police! Miss Bingaman!

Chicken, will you get rid of the irritating emoticons, have some respect for the seriousness with which the question about rules was mooted, and contribute something to the intercourse transpiring in this venue?

This is an opportunity to get the brass hats in Big Blue to pay attention to your concerns about frivolous or frustrating rules in the Air Force but only if you have something to say and if you say it in English.

WeaponsTSGT
06-05-2013, 04:21 PM
Let me grow a beard like all the guys with a shaving waiver.

SomeRandomGuy
06-05-2013, 04:50 PM
Let me grow a beard like all the guys with a shaving waiver.

Das Raciss :afro:

RFScott
06-05-2013, 05:07 PM
Maybe he meant he wanted to grow a beard like all the spec ops guys :wink:

UH1FE
06-05-2013, 06:10 PM
Have written about this a lot. Would like to hear more details. Any structural fatigue issues with the HH-60G? Or concerns about range? Any concern about the inability of the Air Force to come up with a new combat rescue helicopter? Your thoughts about a UH-1N replacement?

Concearning the combat rescue helicopter the Air Force has already picked the replacement. They wrote the requirement so that only the mike model 60 could win. They may say they are putting on a competition but this is all for show. Now the Huey is a great aircraft. Its biggest issue is weight. If you want to take more people you have to sacrifice fuel. It starts out with about 2hrs and 45 min of fuel plus a reserve. If you add a bunch of heavily armed cops then you have to take less fuel. I think the AF just needs to convert the N models to the
TH-1H configuration. They are already used for helo UPT. This would cause the aircraft to be 1500-2000lbs lighter solving the weight issue. Just add some internal Aux tanks and you now have the full fuel load with a full load of cops and a glass cockpit with proven Huey reliabilty.

JD2780
06-05-2013, 06:55 PM
Concearning the combat rescue helicopter the Air Force has already picked the replacement. They wrote the requirement so that only the mike model 60 could win. They may say they are putting on a competition but this is all for show. Now the Huey is a great aircraft. Its biggest issue is weight. If you want to take more people you have to sacrifice fuel. It starts out with about 2hrs and 45 min of fuel plus a reserve. If you add a bunch of heavily armed cops then you have to take less fuel. I think the AF just needs to convert the N models to the
TH-1H configuration. They are already used for helo UPT. This would cause the aircraft to be 1500-2000lbs lighter solving the weight issue. Just add some internal Aux tanks and you now have the full fuel load with a full load of cops and a glass cockpit with proven Huey reliabilty.

Sorry I know all the specs, but does this also apply to the USMC's super Huey? Four bladed rotor.

UH1FE
06-05-2013, 06:58 PM
No the Marine Yankee model Huey is a whole different beast. I wishe the AF would get them but they are expensive. The TH-1 would be cheap in comparison.

JD2780
06-05-2013, 07:15 PM
No the Marine Yankee model Huey is a whole different beast. I wishe the AF would get them but they are expensive. The TH-1 would be cheap in comparison.

Thanks. I've seen them work, and they are certainly a beast. They had gun systems and rockets on them when I saw last year.

We could always get rid of a few more airmen to buy it!!

RobotChicken
06-05-2013, 08:25 PM
Or just one general....