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CaliMC
06-03-2013, 05:20 PM
If the subsequent investigation proves that he had an affair with a junior Sailor, he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ, including reduction in rank and/or forfeiture of retired pay. And if the investigation finds that he was allowed to put in his papers to retire as a means to "sweep it under the rug", then the CVW Commander should be taken out as well.

Master Chief Petty Officers, regardless if you're a CMC, are (or at least should be) held to the highest standard of conduct. When are these knuckleheads going to learn that you don't $#!t where you sleep? I could care less about any excuses - there are none. This E-9 has stained the anchors of every Master Chief Petty Officer (myself included) past and present.

BURAWSKI
06-03-2013, 05:49 PM
Not disagreeing with you, but I think his case was viewed slightly different since I believe the affair was with a chief petty officer. It would have been viewed as far worse if it was with an E6 or below. I've seen women CPO's going out with fellow CPO's (i.e., CPO and SCPO or CPO and CPO, SCPO and MCPO or MCPO and MCPO) and it was not looked at as a problem. But yes, I understand what your saying. A CMC is not really even considered part of the CPO Mess. His position has taken a place just outside of that and functions almost like a department head answerable to the XO/CO.

Stalwart
06-03-2013, 05:56 PM
We once had a Master Chief (not the CMC) marry an newly indoctrinated CPO (the wedding was around the end of Sept).

Either they fell in love really, really fast ... or something was going on before she was frocked.

Rusty Jones
06-03-2013, 06:20 PM
According to OPNAVINST 5370.2C (Navy Fraternization Policy), the only prohibited relationships are officer with enlisted, and then E7-E9 with E1-E6 at the same command.

There's nothing in the instruction prohibiting a relationship between two E7-E9, whether at the same or different commands.

BURAWSKI
06-03-2013, 06:33 PM
I think part of the issue is that the CMC is considered to be in a leadership position separate from the CPO Mess. CMC's have their own network of CMC's which appears to function outside of the normal CPO Mess, and this is what further causes this separation. There may be a local policy where the CO prohibits fraternization between CMC's and ANYONE junior to them in paygrade. It's possible that this CMC may have interacted and functioned within the CPO Mess differently, but since I don't have any of the details on the relationship I can't say.

Stalwart
06-03-2013, 06:53 PM
Even if he hadn't been the CMC, looks like the word 'affair' and not 'relationship' is a key factor. From Navy Times:

"The command master chief of Carrier Air Wing 2 has been fired while officials investigate allegations he continued an affair with a female chief petty officer, even after his commander told him to stop." ... "He is married and lived at Lemoore as a geographic bachelor, his wife filed for divorce in February."

In January, the CMC in question admitted to the affair and was formally counseled, removed from selection as the CMC of a carrier and then requested retirement. It looks like the CAG was going to let him stay on as the CMC until retirement later this year, but the CMC couldn't stay away from the CPO.

In other news, there is now an investigation into the initial probe and the formal counseling that took place in January, probably asking why the CMC was not formally disciplined.

RobotChicken
06-03-2013, 07:11 PM
:spy Nurses were made officers in WW-II but didn't stop Enlisted marring them after falling in love with 'em at the hospital;it took like forever for their association to get Enlisted male nurses to become officers as well. The Navy despite all the PC DC rules and regs are NOT going to change 'Human Nature';no matter how many 'DRONES' they try to build or shape in their 'neutered world'. The Navy Wives Associations fought to keep women off of ships in the '70's with ALL the arguments that we are experiencing today,unfortunately the 'experiment continues'.

Stalwart
06-03-2013, 08:56 PM
I don't think human nature or assigning women to ships is the issue in this case, it appears the affair took place for 3 years so while both at home and deployed. I have done 13 deployments (ground, submarine, surface and air dets) in the 12 years I have been married -- all but the sub deployments had females and I did not cheat on my wife – not even close. If someone doesn't take their vow to their spouse seriously regardless if they are at sea and sneak off to aft VLS or wait until a port call to meet a willing partner there, they are going to cheat. Equally troubling -- he is the CMC and this was one of his Chiefs, a conflict of interest no matter how you look at it. I have seen relationships between members of the Chief’s Mess but as the CMC members of his mess are for all intent off limits. Maybe the military shouldn't be involved in personal lives that way, but right now that is the rule on the books and a Master Chief knows that.

He was subject to the UCMJ, got caught and got a very light admonition -- even with the divorce pending he should have just backed off until he retired and went on with his life. Since he didn't, he was relieved. What troubles me is 'was it worth it': tarnishing the office of the CMC, a huge stain on what I can only assume was good career (I understand that it is pretty hard to make Master Chief), ... but MOST importantly the loss of his marriage and the impact on his family.

imported_WINTHORP1
06-03-2013, 09:49 PM
He was caught once and told to stop, but only received a slap on the wrist if that. How can he as a CMC try and enforce the rules and regulations of the Navy when he was breaking them himself? What should have happened, is he should have been fired and taken to mast when he was caught the first time. Now since he was caught again, the Commander who failed to hold him accountable should be fired now. This is why we continually have problem in the ranks. There is no standard across the board. In the wake of all the sexual assault cases in the news, it'll be interesting to see what will happen.

CaliMC
06-03-2013, 10:20 PM
According to OPNAVINST 5370.2C (Navy Fraternization Policy), the only prohibited relationships are officer with enlisted, and then E7-E9 with E1-E6 at the same command.

There's nothing in the instruction prohibiting a relationship between two E7-E9, whether at the same or different commands.


Rusty, there is an instruction that prohibits married personnel to have relationships with others (irrespective of rank), it's called the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 134.2 (Adultery). Master Chief Petty Officers, not just CMC, as the senior enlisted personnel, are responsible for enforcing regulations and maintaining good order and discipline. The CMC, because of the visibility of the position, has to be sqeaky clean and above reproach. There is no room for exception. If they can't handle it don't apply for the program. If they fail, they need to be held accountable. Period.

Stalwart
06-03-2013, 10:38 PM
There's nothing in the instruction prohibiting a relationship between two E7-E9, whether at the same or different commands.

True, but there are also situations that are contrary to 'good order and discipline'.

Imagine the (perceived or actual) conflict of interest and hazards to 'good order and discipline' if:

CMC is dating or married to one of the LCPOs
XO is dating or married to one of the DH's or DIVO's

And so on, and so on.

RobotChicken
06-03-2013, 11:03 PM
:spy What if it was...Male/male-Female/female??

RobotChicken
06-04-2013, 12:08 AM
Oh, let's not go there! Remember KISS?
:smlove2::3some::bsflag:

BURAWSKI
06-04-2013, 12:14 AM
:spy What if it was...Male/male-Female/female??


Oh, let's not go there! Remember KISS?

navyskcs
06-05-2013, 05:15 AM
Even if he hadn't been the CMC, looks like the word 'affair' and not 'relationship' is a key factor. From Navy Times:

"The command master chief of Carrier Air Wing 2 has been fired while officials investigate allegations he continued an affair with a female chief petty officer, even after his commander told him to stop." ... "He is married and lived at Lemoore as a geographic bachelor, his wife filed for divorce in February."

In January, the CMC in question admitted to the affair and was formally counseled, removed from selection as the CMC of a carrier and then requested retirement. It looks like the CAG was going to let him stay on as the CMC until retirement later this year, but the CMC couldn't stay away from the CPO.

In other news, there is now an investigation into the initial probe and the formal counseling that took place in January, probably asking why the CMC was not formally disciplined.


My guess is that CAG who tried to keep this whole thing low key is about to be sacked next......

RobotChicken
06-05-2013, 05:28 AM
:omfg::plane: "Somebody is About to get 'TAILHOOKED'"!! :damnit-sign2::Flush::reporter:

jrmoore
07-02-2013, 01:31 AM
He has been married for 22 years and this was his first Geo tour. Why didn't the CPO, YNC Billie Grauberger get in trouble and why did this not come to light until after she retired...makes you wonder

Pullinteeth
07-02-2013, 03:48 PM
Rusty, there is an instruction that prohibits married personnel to have relationships with others (irrespective of rank), it's called the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 134.2 (Adultery). Master Chief Petty Officers, not just CMC, as the senior enlisted personnel, are responsible for enforcing regulations and maintaining good order and discipline. The CMC, because of the visibility of the position, has to be sqeaky clean and above reproach. There is no room for exception. If they can't handle it don't apply for the program. If they fail, they need to be held accountable. Period.

Absolutely....it also says sodomy is illegal too. However, just like with the sodomy rule, the adultery rule has been revised by the courts to require as an element for prosecution, the ability to prove that said adultery was prejudicial to good order and disipline. In this case, I think a reasonable case could be made....

BURAWSKI
07-02-2013, 05:09 PM
Absolutely....it also says sodomy is illegal too. However, just like with the sodomy rule, the adultery rule has been revised by the courts to require as an element for prosecution, the ability to prove that said adultery was prejudicial to good order and disipline. In this case, I think a reasonable case could be made....


CMC's are held to a higher standard by virtue of their position. I hate to admit that, but it's true. I believe that everyone should be held to the same high standard, regardless of their position.

Pullinteeth
07-02-2013, 05:40 PM
CMC's are held to a higher standard by virtue of their position. I hate to admit that, but it's true. I believe that everyone should be held to the same high standard, regardless of their position.

You can be held to a higher standard all day long...that doesn't make it a prosecutable offense. Everyone is held to the same standard when it comes to the UCMJ. He could be removed from his position by his CO for these actions but prosecuting him for them is quite a bit more difficult...

Measure Man
07-02-2013, 06:15 PM
Maybe he chose a good woman/good relationship over his career.

Is that so bad?

jrmoore
07-02-2013, 07:55 PM
Maybe he chose a good woman/good relationship over his career.

Is that so bad?

A good woman or relationship wouldn't have had a 3 year affair with a man she knew was married. His wife of 22 years was back home raising their children and taking care of everything else. If he was so unhappy why didn't he just divorce his wife?

Measure Man
07-02-2013, 11:14 PM
A good woman or relationship wouldn't have had a 3 year affair with a man she knew was married. His wife of 22 years was back home raising their children and taking care of everything else.

I meant, good for him not for you...to each his own.


If he was so unhappy why didn't he just divorce his wife?

No way I could answer that.

jrmoore
07-03-2013, 02:16 AM
I guess you haven't googled to see her picture yet LOL


I meant, good for him not for you...to each his own.



No way I could answer that.

Measure Man
07-03-2013, 04:05 AM
I guess you haven't googled to see her picture yet LOL

No, I haven''t

4CECMC
07-17-2013, 02:20 PM
Disagree One Star. Having an affair with another CPO erodes the credibility of the entire CPO Mess and serves to infect the entire crew with the very same poison that this E-9 was infected with. This E-9 needs to be bow shot, taken before a BOI and forced to exit the USN without benefits! If you don't think the entire crew was aware of this E-9's shenanigans, then you are mistaken. The crew was certainly following the example of this knucklehead and his extracurricular activities will be felt by the entire crew for quite some time. As a former CMC who has led far more Sailors than this smuck has, I know far too well what the fall out is from this type of conduct. Much like the recent CMC who was "not continued", we should wash our hands of him and make room for a deserving Master Chief that can lead with honesty, integrity and loyalty.

job1037
08-15-2013, 01:51 AM
its been a while since this thread had any activity; but this item cries to be included.
the navytimes of aug 19 page 5 had this article titled "LESBIAN FRAT CASE DROPPED"

the crux of the story was simple-- a chief had an improper relationship with a 1st class petty officer of the same command, the court-martial found it could not prove this affair was "prejudicial to good order and discipline" so what would the court have said if this ahd been a he and he affair? would or should these people be treated any different than the E-9 who shacked with the E-7?